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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Derry article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Derry/Londonderry name dispute, Misplaced Pages

on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute page I was thinking of putting how the wikipedia guidelines work in the same way how the BBC guidelines are there. Any comments? C. 22468 (talk) 11:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand statements in Misplaced Pages need references to support them. What reference is used to support the statement in p1 that the city is more usually known as Derry? There isn't a reference. It is more usually known as that amongst Irish / catholic / republicans. It is more usually known as Londonderry amongst Protestants / Ulster and in the non-Irish world - the BBC calls it Londonderry. Explain this difference and don't pretend. 86.129.5.187 (talk) 11:55, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Please see multiple previous discussions --Snowded 11:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about how the pages are I was on about how the Guidlines are and I was thinking of putting something like this in on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute for the Responses to the dispute section. and I wanted to see what people though first.

Misplaced Pages

Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the County. Other things such as Londonderry Port and Derry GAA follow their official names.

C. 22468 (talk) 17:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Londonderry should be used as it's within the United Kingdom. That the name offends anybody, is irrelevant. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about what the pages are called I wanted to just put the Misplaced Pages guidelines on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute#Response to the dispute because the BBC, Guardian and The Times style guides are there so why not the Misplaced Pages ones? C. 22468 (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources? O Fenian (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Other than Misplaced Pages no but may be able to possibly find some, Is it worth doing though? C. 22468 (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

there is Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles), its what most media things use in that part and can't find anything on the Internet. C. 22468 (talk) 19:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

For the love of God Almighty, it's Londonderry - not Derry. It's within the UK. 109.255.108.147 (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

and as it never happened why is the wikipedia article named Derry? For example most people call "Newcastle upon Tyne" Newcastle , yet the wikipedia article uses its official and legal name. If it didn't the encyclopedia would be unreliable. so if it happens there why not here? the sentence "more usually called derry" will just annoy the heck out of unionists and that is bound to start a fight on here. The articles you have produced are original work which in themselves show no research or ways to backup their claims, its just opinions! I could write an article now on how the city is more commonly known as londonderry and post it on here and it would be down as unquestionable fact! I'm starting to think I'd be getting more reliable information from unencyclopedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.109.42 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe in any god, almighty or not, but it's still Londonderry. For a British city to be called by a name that Britain doesn't recognise is absurd, and damages Misplaced Pages's reputation. --FergusM1970 (talk) 09:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

i am still unsure why the name is derry. the page on bombay states mumbia because that is its name in india... most people remember it as bambay but it was changed by the sovereign country and therefore the new name now stands. the sovereign country of northern ireland uses the name Londonderry then that is what you need to call it. i have found wikipedians to be very logical but not here...why? Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC) - also google maps reffers to it as londonderry / derry - using the correct name first then a name it is also known as. and we all know that google is right on everything.. lol :)Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It is the most commonly used name to describe Londonderry, and editorial discussions have decided that this justifies using shortened/colloquial names in the place of the official one. Another example is North Korea not being called Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, which is its official name. ★KEYS★  16:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

"Renamed"

My apologies if this has been covered before, but I take issue with this sentence: "In 1613, the city was granted a Royal Charter by King James I and the "London" prefix was added, changing the name of the city to Londonderry". The city of Derry wasn't renamed Londonderry; Derry was destroyed and Londonderry built nearby. Isn't this misleading to people unfamiliar with the subject? Can someone find a ref to support this statement? JonChapple 07:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

If you check up on this Talk page, this was already answered. "The Royal Charter states that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be and shall be named and called the city of Londonderry so there doesn't seem to be any confusion that it was a renaming job. That charter was in 1613, but the "Derry" city status was originally granted by charter in 1604 by James I." --HighKing (talk) 10:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The settlement had been rebuilt just prior to the granting of the charter, however despite being called Derry, it wasn't on the site of the original Derry which the Irish destroyed. Maybe if the Irish didn't destroy it, it mightn't of needed rebuilt and its name altered to give appreciation to the London companies who rebuilt it.... would of saved a lot of trouble. Mabuska 15:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I was always under the impression that Derry was destroyed and Londonderry built across the river. I didn't realise Londonderry was, for a few years, Derry mk II. Thanks. JonChapple 15:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It was built across the river. Mabuska 11:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Not a lot of people know that. --HighKing (talk) 17:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Where might they find out? That fact is not mentioned anywhere in the article. At present, we have The town became strategically more significant during the Tudor conquest of Ireland and came under frequent attack, until in 1608 it was destroyed by Cahir O'Doherty, Irish chieftain of Inishowen.. No mention of a city (or even town) charter in 1604?? At History of Derry we have the cryptic On this occasion the English managed to hold on to Derry and, when the war came to an end in 1603, a small trading settlement was established and given the legal status of city. In 1608 this 'infant city' was attacked by Cahir O'Doherty, Irish chieftain of Inishowen, and the settlement was virtually wiped out. What 'infant city'? Which charter? What does 'virtually wiped out' mean? . Other material suggests a green-field site for a new 'Londonderry' and run-down monastic settlement called 'Derry', perhaps across the Foyle. It seems to me that we have too much 'every skool boy no' and very little scholarly evidence. This surely worth serious research! --Red King (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Nobody's stopping you to do a little digging and research yourself. --HighKing (talk) 11:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there even a thing called a town charter? The article leaves out some claims that the monastic settlement was on an island in the River Foyle - but that depends on whether John O'Donovan is a reliable source. Mabuska 11:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

A quick Google for "Derry City Charter" throws this judgement and this PDF up on the first page. Wasn't difficult. --HighKing (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The first one of those is a . Mabuska 16:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It's still available at archive.org --HighKing (talk) 09:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation

Can someone please translate the following into English:-

Derry City Council since started the process were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA).

What does it actually mean? Skinsmoke (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 13 November 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change it back to either derry or london derry....one or the other, i dont mind which, just one of them. purely for the banter of seeing people getting wound up by it and starting another edit war...everyone wins that way 217.42.167.24 (talk) 05:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The city is called Londonderry and that's the end of it. It doesn't have any other official name. --FergusM1970 (talk) 05:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Protection request

I request that this page be protected, on the grounds that it is being repeatedly edited to state or imply that the actual name of the city is Derry. It has been repeatedly confirmed that the city is called LONDONDERRY, and this should be made clear in the lede of the article. --FergusM1970 (talk) 10:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Please go and read WP:DERRY also WP:COMMONNAME. Bjmullan (talk) 11:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Grammatically garbled sentence?

There seems to be a grammatically garbled sentence in the "Name" section: "Derry City Council since started the process were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." Can somebody figure out how to fix this? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

"Derry City Council since started this process and were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." Think that fixes the grammar .Murry1975 (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Or even: "Derry City Council has begun the process and has conducted an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." --HighKing (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Already changed it earlier HighKing , but I have no objections to your phrasing going in instead of mine .Murry1975 (talk) 16:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Londonderry or Derry

As many people know, Londonderry/Derry's wiki page is titled Derry. But I wanted to start by asking how people thought about this city being titled on wikipedia as Derry and not by it's offical name Londonderry? Cbowsie (talk) 23:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It's daft. JonC 08:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Yawn, here we go again see all the previous discussions, and they probably feel the same as they do about a country, Ireland (official name) being called Republic of Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 09:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The majority of people in Derry call it Derry. The majority of people in Ireland call it Derry and it wins in the Google hits count. That's a clear common name to me. And before you start going on about it being a nationalist thing you should check out Siege of Derry, Bishop of Derry and Apprentice Boys of Derry.Bjmullan (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

just because its the common name for the city does not make it its OFFICIAL name. Just because its what most people call it doesnnt mean it should be its title in an encyclopdia, if that was the case newcastle upon tyne's page would be simple titled "newcastle". And as for all those links you posted, those events (the siege of derry) and the organisation (the apprentice boys of derry) were both formed/ took place BEFORE the city was officially renamed Londonderry, so what you are saying makes no sense. try doing some research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really opposed to the page itself being at Derry, but I am opposed to having "Derry / Londonderry" in the "official name" field in the infobox. Derry / Londonderry is not the city's official name. The infobox should say Londonderry only. JonC 09:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Well it's better than not having the official name in it. And to counter Mo ainm - Republic of Ireland is an official description of the Irish state as imposed by the Republic of Ireland act. Derry on the other hand has no official status at all in any way other than as the name of the council area which doesn't affect the city. Mabuska 11:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say that in the Irish Constitution? Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Surely you can come up with something better than that. Who said anything about the Irish Constitution? I said the Republic of Ireland Act. What does it clearly state in point 2? State sanctioned and passed, so official, and never revoked so still official. Case closed. Mabuska 11:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Section 2 of the Act quite simply provides: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."Description, it does not state it even as an official description so you are wrong Mabuska.143.239.70.68 (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

So its not official despite the fact it was passed by the Republic of Ireland's own parliament? It doesn't need to state official explicitly for it to be so - the fact the state's own parliament passed the act makes it official. Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless of course you saying the Oireachtas isn't the official parliament of the Republic and that its governed by some other institution instead? Mabuska 11:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

"Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless you are saying...." - please tone down the personal comments. No excuse for it. You know better. --HighKing (talk) 11:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Pedantic is not a harsh or hard toned word. It is a single word that helps get across a meaning that'd take several words or a whole sentence to. Mabuska 12:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Since you've asked, the city's name is Londonderry. Thus my reason for supporting the article being moved to Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The republic of ireland is the official name for the country, not Ireland, Ireland is the name of the island not the country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Okay so the feeling I am getting from reading the comments in response to my question and the above comments before my question is that a lot of people do not agree with the page being called Derry and that it is the same people disagreeing with Londonderry being used. Therefore my second question now is; why is this page still called Derry despite the fact that this page alone shows that there is wide support for Londonderry. Thank you for your responses in advanced.Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC) 23:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In general wp prefers common names, see WP:COMMONNAME, as Bjmullan said earlier - Lugnad (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Problem with that is Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. Mabuska 12:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

There are a few articles that come to mind that people do not agree with in naming terms and terms used within , British Isles and Republic of Ireland being two examples but guidelines are in place to give a clear understanding of what should be used , even if some of us disagree with them we are here to make Wiki better not argue over it time and time again . PS Cbowsie sign in when on line . Understandable that sometimes it can be forgotten .Murry1975 (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand that many places have been given common names, but do you not agree that having the correct name for a page such as this one would be important to ensure that people are being informed of the correct and official name. I agree that the reasons why Derry is used should be highlighted, but is having the page titled such because it is common necessary?Cbowsie (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You have introduced no new arguments from the last time you brought this up. You were informed of policy last June and received a warning for one of your edit summaries. Given that there was no excuse for you editing the article direct some months ago. I really hope you have not decided to make this an annual occurance. Misplaced Pages policy on common names is clear and the long standing "Derry for the city Londonderry for the county" agreement has provided much needed stability. In respect of your comment about "wide support for Londonderry" I suggest you count the numbers which don't really match that statement, or reflect the fact that most editors are really bored with stable positions being disrupted for no good reason. --Snowded 05:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Well i don't know how much of your comment is correct or can be backed up with any evidence, however i wouldn't say the "consensus" is the most stable seeing how many times throughout a week we have to revert someone going against it on some article. Mabuska 11:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree that it's every week Mabuska. Also, as the page has several thousand visits a week, the odd issue doesn't suggest that the common name is unstable. --NorthernCounties (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say about this one article, i said "on some article". It does happen quite a lot. It might be stable on this article, but that doesn't mean it is everywhere else. Mabuska 11:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

When this argument comes up time after time we are usually given one of two answers; 'it's already been answered or that's what the consensus said'. May I ask when this consensus was made regarding the title and its conclusion? Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:IMOS Mo ainm~Talk 00:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

As it was some time ago a consensus was made, how do you go about getting a new consense? Thanks Cbowsie (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC) ???Cbowsie (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

See the link to IMOS, raise it there --Snowded 06:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

there is the last failed official attempt to request a move to a different name. Given that WP:COMMONNAME (which is part of the wider policy on article titles) says "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" and Derry being the common name is reliably sourced, the chances of a move succeeding would seem to be virtually nil. So do you have anything constructive to add to the encyclopedia except bleating about the name of this article being one you don't like? Read WP:TITLECHANGES, "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged". 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Derry and Londonderry are both common names. 194.72.9.24 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The way in which editors reply to neutral POV messages concerns me. All I have asked is why this page is being called something it's not even though there is wider support for the change which can be seen on this page alone. I have then asked as an editor who does not know great detail of Misplaced Pages how I go about changing this and I get replies as if I’m a bigot. However thank you to those who supplied the links. Also could I ask editors to provide sources as to where it is proven that 'Derry' is more common? Don't you think that an editor such as myself who actually lives here to be a reliable source. Cbowsie (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LDerry for the county, this works well and prevents endless debate on numerous articles about the name. Mo ainm~Talk 23:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

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