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New edits

Timbouctou it is highly misleading to list "Agnosticism" as a religion or religious affiliation of any sort. By rights that entry should simply read "None" without unnecessary references to the man's philosophical convictions.

Also as a side note, I shall herewith point out that the above new edit you have posted is, once again, opposed. As you know full well, Misplaced Pages strongly recommends you do not start an edit war in order to force it into the article without discussion and consensus. I am making a point of this since you have, in fact, started an edit war in every single such situation in the past (in my experience). --DIREKTOR 10:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

You are personalising the issue in your very first post. If you have something to say to me than you have my talk page to do it. The changes I did were in line with the way all other agnostic politicians' infoboxes are filled out on Misplaced Pages. I also fail to see how an edit that had been unopposed by anyone for 23 days is somehow "forced" nor do I see how your obvious lack of AGF is constructive here. I will be reporting you if this kind of WP:HOUND continues. Cheers. Timbouctou (talk) 10:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not "personalizing" the discussion, that is your own perception. The above side-note is very much relevant to edits and content on this particular article, and you cannot convince me it isn't necessary as a preventive measure against edit-warring. I apologize for not assuming good faith, you criticism is accurate in that regard, however I have been insulted (and indeed WP:HOUNDED) by you so frequently it becomes hard to do so, I hope you understand. For the record, I did not follow or "hound" you here, as is obvious from your own post and the time span you mention, and in fact I do whole-heartily agree with the vast majority of your edits. Regards --DIREKTOR 10:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

1. How is Roberta's replacement of the image with the one released by his own party "malicious"?

2. Why have you piped links in his birth place in this edit, which is contrary to the established format used in virtually al other articles of Croatian politicians?

3. Agnosticism is listed as such in the "Religion" bracket in all other similar articles, which implies that there's a established convention for such people (see Matt Groening, Jawaharlal Nehru, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Heinz Fischer, Wim Kok, etc). What makes Milanović an exception? Timbouctou (talk) 10:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Please let me explain:

1. Two reasons. #1 I have nothing against the older version as such, indeed the version Roberta is restoring was modified by myself, but by now it is quite dated indeed, as is visible on the person himself, and the newer one is up to date, with more appropriate infobox proportions and in higher res. (I do not see how it matters for Misplaced Pages who released the photo.) #2 Roberta and I have a history from Commons. I strongly suspect, though tbh I may be wrong here, that the old image is being restored for no other reason than personal grievances. What's wrong with this one?

2. There is really no need to disambiguate between "SR Croatia" and some other "Croatia" at the time, as there is no need to distinguish between the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia at that time period. And if there is a "format" we're using for Croatian politicians, I did not receive the memo. Though, I must mention, the "format" you're referring to was probably written by a younger User:DIREKTOR :), since I wrote the infoboxes for quite a lot of Croatian politicians in the manner you describe. I only realized that it was kind of unnecessary later.

3. That is not quite true. As I said above, Agnosticism is often not listed at all, or the entry is not filled-in altogether - simply because it is not a religious affiliation and those people do not belong to any religion. Most social democrats refer to themselves as agnostic, yet only on a few articles will you find Agnosticism mentioned.

--DIREKTOR 11:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• 1. You described Roberta's edit (in which she replace a cropped version of an image she created herself with an image released by his party) "malicious". How is an image used to illustrate his own party website malicious? And why wouldn't Roberta be free to replace one PD image with another, especially if she doe not seem to want her own creation to be used here? Besides, it was you who reverted her edit first time, second time and third time. NB, in that last one you reverted her addition of this image - which is just as recent and hi-res as the one you are arguing for. Care to explain that? (Btw she also left you a message at your talk which you promptly deleted as "trolling". How constructive.)
• 2. There is a need to disambiguate between SR Croatia and Croatia, just as there is a need to distinguish between SFR Yugoslavia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. This was raised many times because just putting in "Yugoslavia" attracts vandalism and putting in "Yugoslavia (now Croatia)" is misleading - Yugoslavia is not a former name for Croatia. The difference between the Kingdom and SFRJ is quite substantial - your view that it isn't is simply a minority view. The same format has spread to infoboxes on footballers, authors and the like - and if you want to change it you will need a much more wider consensus. The birthplace parameter must contain the name of the country at time of birth, whereas sub-national units are optional. The subnational unit in which Milanović was born was known as SR Croatia.
• 3. Most articles at List of agnostics#Politics and law have infoboxes filled out in exactly the same way. You fail to argue that Milanović is an exception. If you want a project-wide change in the established consensus you must raise this elsewhere. The reason why "many social democrats" don't have this is probably because sources for that claim are missing. Timbouctou (talk) 11:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• 1. I answered that already. Roberta is edit-warring to push her own image over my own, which was there previously, because of a personal grudge from Commons. The other image she introduced to have my image removed is dated. In short, in my opinion it is malicious to try to remove another's work because of past grudges, just to have your own in place.
• 2. The Republic of Croatia and SR Croatia are different, yes. Just as Croatia and the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia are, or the SHS State, etc. The point is that in the historical period we are discussing there is only one "Croatia" and listing the official name seems redundant.
• 3. There is an established consensus? Please provide a link.

--DIREKTOR 13:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, Direktor, regarding your point #3: obviously you can't provide a link that proves there is an established consensus to the contrary, so what is the purpose of your question? We already had this discussion. The best way to settle this issue is definitely not to go through it all once again - this belongs in a centralized discussion (probably a matter for WP:WPBIO). GregorB (talk) 22:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Listing agnosticism as a "religion" is a grave error, the more widespread the worse (there is no WP:CONSENSUS on the matter that I can find). One might as well list "Atheism", "Nihilism" or "Humanism" in such a way. --DIREKTOR 14:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm repeating myself but still: if the entry for "Religion" reads "None (agnostic)", then this explicitly says that agnosticism is not a religion, and is therefore not erroneous. To paraphrase a well-known joke, this is like "Hair color: None (bald)". GregorB (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Um.. I agree. I do not mind that format. Though the analogy with hair is somewhat flawed: it suggests that the word in the brackets ("agnostic") has something to do with hair, while agnosticism has nothing at all to do with hair, hair colour, religion or religious affiliation - it is a completely different category. --DIREKTOR 15:09, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The "Religion" parameter in the info box refers to person's beliefs, whatever they happen to be. In any case, DIREKTOR should take this up at WP:WPBIO or some other centralized discussion place. In the meantime there is no reason for this (or any other) article not to fill in the entry the way it is being used all over Misplaced Pages. Timbouctou (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Timbouctou, the above assertion is your own claim. And it is plainly untrue. The parameter is not entitled "beliefs", but "religion". Religious beliefs are simply not the same thing as beliefs in general. --DIREKTOR 15:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I am aware that this discussion generates more heat than light, but I'll join in anyway... If it is a demonstratable common practice to include specification of agnosticism or otherwise in the religion slot of the infobox, it should be included by all means. To extend the hair color parallel, consider that

Hair color: brown (bald)

may also be an accurate description if the person in question shaves his/her head for instance which would otherwise be adorned by an unspecified patch of brown hair. Therefore

Religion: Roman Catholic (agnostic)

is also a perfectly plausible situation, since agnosticism is a philosophical stance that presence of a deity is unknowable, but religion is a matter of faith rather than knowing. One knows there is a wikipedia and saying that the same person believes wiki exists is nonsensical. In summation, I'd lean to keep the agnosticism as a modifier in round brackets where properly sourced and especially so if found elsewhere.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

@Direktor What you call "claim" others call "common sense", and judging by infoboxes at Clement Attlee, Helen Clark, Wim Kok, Willem Drees, Heinz Fischer, Esther Ouwehand, Bruno Kreisky, Ricardo Lagos, Lee Kuan Yew, Boris van der Ham, Jan Marijnissen, George Lincoln Rockwell, Gerdi Verbeet, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Gerrit Zalm and Jawaharlal Nehru I'm not the only one. Still, if you want to change something which appears to fall within the dictionary definition of "established convention" on this project than you should take it up someplace else. Timbouctou (talk) 16:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Tomboe. Apologies, Tomboe, everyone, the "heat" shall certainly be turned down :).

So once again: I agree. To take your example, if a person was a Roman Catholic and an agnostic (i.e. an form of an agnostic theist), I would not mind the format you suggest above. The essence of what I am saying is that agnosticism (or lack of it) is a different category than religion entirely. In the colloquial sense, the term "agnostic" (in the context of referring to a person's beliefs) means the person is not religious, and agrees with the tenets of agnosticism. Josipovic and Milanovic are not religious persons, and are agnostics by philosophical conviction.

In short, if it is common practice to mention agnosticism in the parameter, very well, but we must also mention that the person does not belong to any religion.

@Timbouctou, once again: please curb your belligerent tone. "Misplaced Pages is not a source" as you know, "everybody's doing it" is not an argument, and displaying the extent of a misleading error does not make it less of an error. I asked you several times to please point to a WP:CONSENSUS on the issue. I'm sorry, but I am not concerned with what you declare to be "common sense" or "established convention". --DIREKTOR 16:19, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

If it is common practice to mention agnosticism in the parameter, very well, but we must also mention that the person does not belong to any religion.

Why? To distinguish them from all those agnostics who belong to various religions? Lol.

"Misplaced Pages is not a source" as you know, "everybody's doing it" is not an argument, and displaying the extent of a misleading error does not make it less of an error. I asked you several times whether you can point to a WP:CONSENSUS on the issue.

I did not use Misplaced Pages as a source, did I? We are not discussing agnosticism as such but the way infoboxes should display it. I used examples above to illustrate the established convention. Ever heard of it? I also asked you several times to take this error-fixing crusade of yours to WP:WPBIO or some similar place, to no avail. And your request to prove consensus is pointless - can you point to a consensus that agnosticism should be listed in brackets after "None"? Timbouctou (talk) 16:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

"Lol"? Please read the Agnostic theism article. You might, in addition, also want to learn about Christian agnosticism.

Yes, I have heard of WP:CONVENTIONS, i.e. the MoS, but I cannot find what you are claiming in it.

And once again, please, please curb your belligerent tone. --DIREKTOR 16:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Once again, this is not a discussion about agnosticism in general. Once again, you fail to respond to a friendly encouragement to take this someplace centralized because what your are arguing for is clearly against the project-wide established convention for info boxes. Once again, you are asking for some sort of proof that the established convention is written in stone (it isn't) while never providing anything similar for arguing the opposite. Oh and btw - I'm not the one who was accused for harrasment over this. Timbouctou (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to point out why exactly this talk page is the wrong venue for this discussion: the issue we are debating here has nothing to do with Zoran Milanović, just as it had nothing to do with Ivo Josipović when we discussed it earlier. On the other hand, it potentially affects many other biographies. That's why I strongly urge whomever might be interested in a constructive solution to take this issue to WP:WPBIO. GregorB (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The discussion on agnosticism in the infobox was started here (on 10:56, 4 November 2011) by User:Timbouctou. I am essentially only responding to the user's posts on the subject in pointing out that there is no WP:CONSENSUS and/or established WP:CONVENTION that we need to follow on this particular article. I certainly agree that in order to discuss the error in general, the matter should certainly be brought-up elsewhere (on WP:WPBIO most likely, yes).

@Timbouctou, I do not know why you keep pointing out that this discussion is not on agnosticism. I am also not asking you to show any piece of masonry, but only some Misplaced Pages convention or consensus, other than the one you've declared on this talkpage.

Timbouctou, your attitude towards myself not only manages to disallow any possibility of amicable agreement in any issue whatsoever, but also creates conflicts between us where they should not exist, and turns every discussion in general into a fruitless WP:BATTLEGROUND, distasteful to other Wikipedians. I would like to remind you, for the record, that you have been warned against such behavior, and recently, and that I have been instructed to report it immediately should it resurface. I will do so if your comments such as the above are to be the standard in this discourse. --DIREKTOR 17:55, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time - you failed to produce a convincing argument as to why an edit you inserted in the infobox, which is against the established convention used for such articles (evidenced by the virtue of 16 other articles on agnostic politicians linked above) should be used. Misplaced Pages has many methods to discuss these things, and you haven't used a single one - you never notified the relevant WikiProjects, and you still ignore what me and other editors have been telling you - to take this elsewhere. Because if this IS an error, it is in dozens of articles.

As for your rants about me personally, please observe WP:NPA. I believe you were instructed to do that as well. Timbouctou (talk) 18:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Timbouctou, once again, the only thing I have been saying on this talkpage is that there is no "established convention" - and that in response to your claims that there is one. Simply because one format is used on more articles than another does not mean the former is somehow "automatically" a WP:CONVENTION. Unless the "First Church of Agnosticism" was founded somewhere that I am not aware of, it is an error to list a general belief as a religious belief. Now I suppose you would like to once more try and have an argument on a subject we both agree on? Namely that this subject (you brought up here) would be better discussed in a wider venue.

Heh. I am indeed observing WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, whereas you continuously do not, even as you quote them ("rant"). --DIREKTOR 19:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it's time for this section to come to an end since it has deviated from the topic first mentioned. Anymore comments on whether agnosticism should be included in religious beliefs should be brought up with WP:WPBIO to get a consensus on all bios.--Jesuislafete (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Infobox picture

In my opinion, neither the current nor the previous infobox images are quite up to par - one because the subject of the photo is looking away from the camera and the lower-left corner of the image contains a blurry object (probably sth in the background), and the other because it is cropped too tight (top of the head is missing). A cropped version of another commons image (16 obljetnica vojnoredarstvene operacije Oluja 04082011 Zoran Milanovic 5044-2.jpg) might be salvageable but even that's far from anything really good.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Well yes, that's certainly true. I replaced the old one with this one since its really dated, tried my best... Hopefully they'll release a formal portrait in the coming months. --DIREKTOR 13:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay: for easier reference, I've added these three pics to this section.

No. 1 is a bit dated. Looks slightly out of focus too at native resolution. Aggressively cropped. Otherwise not bad.

No. 2 is not really good as a portrait because the subject looks down, giving him a somewhat sullen appearance.

No. 3 is technically good and works fine as a portrait. Arguably could use a better crop - I'm not really an expert.

Of these, No. 3 is the best IMO. It is still better than 90% of non-PR portraits here, so frankly I don't see where's the problem and in particular I can't comprehend that image changes are being described as "malicious", as if he is yawning, squinting, grimacing, picking his nose, or something of the sort. GregorB (talk) 21:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

IMO no.3 is the best, perhaps with a somewhat different crop - see David Cameron for reference.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:30, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe the third is the best picture as well. The first one is overly cropped, and the second one has the subjects face and eyes turned downward. None are horrible, but the third looks most flattering. I can't believe replacing images has become worthy of an edit-war; come on users-it's an image. Not worth it. --Jesuislafete (talk) 02:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't believe someone just started removing my image repeatedly... and its not because No.3 was perceived as "better" - it was just to remove my image, as the user was edit-warring to introduce just about any other photo besides the one I recently introduced to replace the dated one.

As for which one is "best", well.. since we're going into aesthetics, I must confess that (even though it is my crop) No.2 in all objectivity seems to me far more flattering because it does not accentuate the (rather severe) acne vulgaris cicatrice on the person's face. No.3 really does an excellent job of doing just that, just have a look at it in larger scale. And imho the pensive, "deep" expression on No.2 is also a good thing appearances-wise. Though, of course, I shall submit to the will of the majority :). --DIREKTOR 12:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

None of these images is "yours" in any way, shape or form. And no. 3 looks best, although the contrast could be better. Timbouctou (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Timbouctou is here deliberately trying to start an argument (again), by suggesting that I claimed ownership of one of these images. Which is, of course, blatantly untrue (I only referred to the fact that image no.2 was cropped by myself into a portrait format). Once again, the user is inventing a conflict where none exists, and bringing his disruptive attitude into an entirely friendly discourse. --DIREKTOR 15:47, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I am a bit skeptical that an infrequent user was edit warring with you here; I think you may have jumped too soon to that conclusion, since I saw no such intent going on with the user in the history. And although you may have had trouble with a user in the past, you still should have assumed good faith that they were trying to improve the article. Now I don't have a serious problem with number 2, I just think for a bio's main image, there are better ones in which the figure's face is more visible to see. And I think you have the idea wrong: we are not going into aesthetics, and I don't see a problem with the man's face–they are a part of who he is, there is no reason to hide it. I suppose it might seem better to find a picture that minimizes his facial scarring but well, he doesn't seem to have a problem with it (as he could have easily had it surgically fixed), so I don't see why we should. --Jesuislafete (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm also going to throw out there that I think picture number 6 would look good if the top of the head wasn't cropped out. The person's face is clearly shown and looks attentive and it seems fairly recent. --Jesuislafete (talk) 20:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

4 is OK, 5 is almost as good as 3 (better crop, but worse angle regarding his facial features). 6 looks slightly dated, like 1 (although, to be fair, that's really inconsequential - this is not meant to be a passport photo), and is heavily cropped. GregorB (talk) 20:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

@Jesuislafete. Roberta was edit-warring, Jesuislafete. What's there to interpret? She kept replacing the previous image with ones she preferred, without discussion or even so much as an explanation, and in spite of being reverted. And we do have a history from Commons. Similar behavior on her part, she's probably a photographer of some sort I suppose, and thinks she should be the one doing the decision-making. --DIREKTOR 21:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget to mention that you had violated WP:3RR (1st, 2nd, 3rd). And since you mention WP:BRD, you might want to catch up on BRD-NOT - did you provide "a reason that is based on policies, guidelines or common sense" in any of your edit summaries? Timbouctou (talk) 22:04, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

@Direktor: Yes, Roberta is a major contributor to Commons - just look at her 2011 gallery (couldn't resist applying a few of these right away). By uploading her Croatia-related photos, she is also a great contributor to WikiProject Croatia in particular, and I don't think that this slight faux pas takes away much from that. We had a problem, we've solved it, let's move on. GregorB (talk) 22:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. --DIREKTOR 22:39, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

New Croatian government

The new government will be formed in December 2011, not January 2012. Ref (among others): http://hrsvijet.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18860:zoran-milanovi-dobio-mandat-za-sastavljanje-vlade&catid=1:politika&Itemid=9 --Wustenfuchs 14:14, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. WP:CRYSTAL applies. Write about it once it happens, not before. Timbouctou (talk) 15:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not about that. Infobox mentions when he is going to take the office. --Wustenfuchs 17:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

It is exactly about that. We don't know when he would take office - he has to receive a mandate from Josipović once the election results are official, then the Sabor has to convene and then they have to vote for the new government. It will happen either in late December or early January but nobody knows for sure when that would happen so instead of guesswork the infobox should say "To be determined". Oh and btw try finding a single source which considers him "10th" Prime Minister. Timbouctou (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Atheism

Atheism is a "disbelief in the existence of deity". An atheist is a non-believer. In other words when someone is not a believer, it is hardly objectionable (or "WP:OR") to describe him as a non-believer. The fancy word the ancient Greeks had for it is the most popular, but you can translate it in any language you want ("nevjernik" e.g.). --DIREKTOR 12:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

You're correct in that all atheists are non-believers, but the opposite (that all non-believers are atheists) does not hold (because there are agnostics). The source says he is a non-believer, but does not say he's a an atheist. I'm introducing the "middle ground" version of the infobox entry that reflects these facts. GregorB (talk) 12:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Argh! not that "agnostic" nonsense again... :) Quite simply, you either believe in a god or you do not. By the very nature of the terms themselves it is impossible to be something other than either a theist or an a-theist. Gnosticism or a-gnosticism is a different issue altogether. You either believe knowledge of a deity is knowable or you do not. You can be an agnostic in addition to an atheist, that is true, you can be an agnostic atheist, but you can also be an agnostic theist. This is such a common misconception there are videos on the internet about it! Here's one I just found. --DIREKTOR 18:57, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

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