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Hello, IIIraute! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions to this 💕. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Jojhutton (talk) 16:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Misplaced Pages • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Misplaced Pages is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Your Edit at WW2 Casualties

Show me where that web page says 500,000 civilians were killed in Allied Bombings. Your edit must cite a reliable source that can be verified. Not just a web page of a German school district.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:36, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

(1) the source is not from any kind of school district, but backed by the Federal State of Lower Saxony.

(2) To confirm the figure of 500.000 - 600.000 available at the Federal Government of Lower Saxony - here, another source by the "Stiftung Haus der Geschichte d--Woogie10w (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)--Woogie10w (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)er Bundesrepublik Deutschland" http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/staedte/index.html ...website from the permanent official exhibition by the Federal Republic of Germany in Berlin. (...last paragraph)--IIIraute (talk) 01:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

They are NOT the source, they are citing figures from Die Welt May 5,2005--Woogie10w (talk) 02:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

No, the 2nd source I did provide you with is provided by the "German Historical Museum" and its permanent exhibition.--IIIraute (talk) 02:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The cited website from the "German Historical Museum" can also be found at: http://www.dhm.de/ , section LeMo. http://en.wikipedia.org/Deutsches_Historisches_Museum--IIIraute (talk) 02:17, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

For further research about the institution: http://en.wikipedia.org/Deutsches_Historisches_Museum , as well as: http://www.dhm.de/international/docs/DHM_Englisch.pdf --IIIraute (talk) 02:27, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Rather than rely on tertiary sources and websites like Die Welt and the Deutsches_Historisches_Museum we need to use secondary sources like Wirtschaft und Statistik and the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office. --Woogie10w (talk) 02:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I will report your changes (that were also not done in the manner they are supposed to) - The German Historical Museuam (a). was contracted by the German Government, (b) has its own research departments, with access to some of the largest WWII archives in the world, with dozens of historians working for them. To Translate Allied "Luftangriffe" and "Bombardements" with Air War is revisionist and wrong.--IIIraute (talk) 02:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The source for the figure of 500,000-600,000 dead at the Deutsches_Historisches_Museum is most likely the 1956 data from Wirtschaft und Statistik, I have given the details of that figure at WW2 casualties. --Woogie10w (talk) 03:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The article "Bilanz des Bombenkreigs" in Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd. 9/1, is informative, I think you will find it of interest. Beste Grusse --Woogie10w (talk) 05:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I know the books, however I also do know that the German Historical Museum spent years on researching the given figures, trying to put up an unbiased exhibition. Thank you for helping, i.e. putting the whole Soviet, Polish civilian isssue right.--IIIraute (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Maybe you could help on the whole issue of establishing a paragraph of mentioning the consequences the war did bring on Germany herself. (similar to the figures published by the German Historical Museum; total civilian dead, POW's, war dead, destroyed flats, etc.)--IIIraute (talk) 15:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Those figures are there, except destroyed flats which are not casualties. We need to use published reliable sources rather than websites that do not cite the sources of the figures, like the German Historical Museum.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, do you know a published reliable academic source in German (not a website for school children) that has figures for total German civilian dead, POW's, war dead ?--Woogie10w (talk) 16:34, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion the website of the German Historical Museum is best for middle school students, we can do a lot better on Misplaced Pages and use only published reliable academic sources--Woogie10w (talk) 16:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I maybe didn't make myself very clear. I was talking about the "Nazi Germany" article. Please have a look at the talk: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazi_Germany#Reversion_of_recent_edits_by_IIIraute --IIIraute (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

and again, the German Historical Museum is a worldwide recognised Institution. The point is not on how they distribute their information, but what information (as being officially contracted by the German Government)--IIIraute (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I do understand your concern, I am a historian myself (BA History Hons. University of London; PgD History - University of Cambridge; MLitt. University of Glasgow, working on my PhD) I have worked for years with the German Historical Institute in London, many Museums and other Reserach Institutions)--IIIraute (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Fine please tell me about published reliable academic sources that I can verify, not a website for children!--Woogie10w (talk) 16:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Would you cite an article in Die Welt or the website of German Historical Museum in an historical paper that you would present to your academic colleagues?--Woogie10w (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The German Historical Museum, YES ...some of them are actually my colleagues.

Deutschland 1945-1949, Informationen zur politischen Bildung (Heft 259), Bonn, 2005

Wolfgang Benz, Infrastruktur und Gesellschaft im zerstörten Deutschland

Thomas Berger/Karl-Heinz Müller (Hg.), Lebenssituationen 1945-1948, Hannover 1983

Peter Graf von Kielmannsegg: Nach der Katastrophe. Eine Geschichte des geteilten Deutschland, Berlin 2000

Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene: Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945–1956, in: Kritische Studien zur Geschichtswissenschaft, Band 127, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, Göttingen 1998

Heinrich Siedler: Dokumentation zur Deutschlandfrage, Siegler & Co. KG – Verlag für Zeitarchive, Bonn 1961.

--IIIraute (talk) 17:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

To phrase publications and the information of permanent exhibitions of a worldwide recognized research institute and museum, that was contracted by the German Government - "for middle school students" - is quite arrogant. I only gave the German Historical Museum as ONE example, suggesting a variety of sources. The same figures you can find within the following bibliography. For more research:

• Benz, Wolfgang, Potsdam 1945. Besatzungsherrschaft und Neuaufbau im Vier-Zonen-Deutschland, München 1994.
• Benz, Wolfgang:, Die Gründung der Bundesrepublik. Von der Bizone zum souveränen Staat, München 1989
• Broszat, Martin / Weber, Hermann (Hg.), SBZ-Handbuch. München 1990.
• Buchheim, Christoph, Die Wiedereingliederung Westdeutschlands in die Weltwirtschaft 1945-1958, München 1990.
• Steininger Rolf, Deutsche Geschichte seit 1945. Darstellung und Dokumente in vier Bänden. Frankfurt a. M. 1996.
• Vaubel, Ludwig, Zusammenbruch und Wiederaufbau. Ein Tagebuch aus der Wirtschaft 1945-1949, München 1985.
• Deutschland 1945-1949, Informationen zur politischen Bildung (Heft 259), Bonn, 2005

• Wolfgang Benz, Infrastruktur und Gesellschaft im zerstörten Deutschland

• Thomas Berger/Karl-Heinz Müller (Hg.), Lebenssituationen 1945-1948, Hannover 1983

• Peter Graf von Kielmannsegg: Nach der Katastrophe. Eine Geschichte des geteilten Deutschland, Berlin 2000

• Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene: Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945–1956, in: Kritische Studien zur Geschichtswissenschaft, Band 127, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, Göttingen 1998

• Heinrich Siedler: Dokumentation zur Deutschlandfrage, Siegler & Co. KG – Verlag für Zeitarchive, Bonn 1961.

--IIIraute (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

German Victims of the Nazi Era

Do you know of a recent reliable published source that details the losses of non-Jewish Germans? The only official figure I have is 300,000 victims(including Jews) that was published by the West German government in 1960. There are numerous studies of those killed in the expulsions and air raids but nothing on those Germans killed by the Nazis.--Woogie10w (talk) 19:36, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I know that between 1933 and 1945, 16.560 individuals of German citizenship were sentenced to death, of which ca. 12.000 were executed. 664 individuals were sentenced to death before-, 15.896 during WWII.

• Karl Bruno Leder, Todesstrafe. Ursprung, Geschichte, Opfer. München, 1986

• Ingo Müller, Furchtbare Juristen: die unbewältigte Vergangenheit unserer Justiz, Kindler, 1987

--IIIraute (talk) 20:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

At east 100.000 individuals, killed from Action T4

http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1999_3.pdf

• Götz Aly (Hrsg.): Aktion T4 1939–1945. Die „Euthanasie“-Zentrale in der Tiergartenstraße 4. Edition Hentrich, Berlin 1989

• Michael Burleigh (Hrsg.): Tod und Erlösung. Euthanasie in Deutschland 1900–1945 (Gebundene Ausgabe)“. Verlag Pendo, 2002

• Alfred Hagemann, Euthanasie im NS-Staat: Grafeneck im Jahr 1940. Landeszentrale für politische Bildung Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart 2000.

• Ernst Klee, Euthanasie im NS-Staat. Die Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens. S. Fischer, Frankfurt am Main 1983

• Ernst Klee, Dokumente zur Euthanasie. Fischer Taschenbuch, Frankfurt1985

ca. 130.000 victims from political, religious, active or passive resistance. http://www.gdw-berlin.de/

• Exhibition "Resistance to National Socialism", Berlin, 2005

• Hans Rothfels, Die deutsche Opposition gegen Hitler. Eine Würdigung. Frankfurt a. M., 1969

• Ulrich Cartarius, Opposition gegen Hitler. Deutscher Widerstand 1933-1945, Berlin, 1984

• Gerd R. Ueberschär, Der deutsche Widerstand gegen Hitler. Wahrnehmung und Wertung in Europa

und den USA, Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt, 2002

• Jan Foitzik, Zwischen den Fronten. Zur Politik, Organisation und Funktion linker politischer Kleinorganisationen im Widerstand 1933 bis 1939/1940, Bonn, 1986

--IIIraute (talk) 21:11, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

...so I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you; the subject is actually extremely well documented... I could easily give you another 50 sources. It has been done German style - almost pedantic. --IIIraute (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Excellant, this should be on the WW2 Casualties page. What do you think?--Woogie10w (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, of course... I do agree. However, usually those numbers are listed separately as they are generally not regarded as WWII victims but more towards being victims from German interior politics.--IIIraute (talk) 21:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Not so, the victims of the nazis are included in the totals of other countries, France, Greece, Poland and the USSR ect--Woogie10w (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case, and the general policy on the WWII casualties page, then I guess it is ok to add the figures to the other ones. I guess sometimes people have a problem with this, as they do not like the the number of German casualties to increase, because they argue that they died from own Nazi-, and not from any Allied actions. But if you regard the Nazis as an own entity, the regime, Gestapo etc. (not generalising the whole German nation as being this entity) it makes sense. The problem already lies within the definiton of "Nazi Germany", as of course it was "Germany" or "Deutsches Reich" ..... by calling it Nazi Germany one somehow makes every citizen a Nazi.--IIIraute (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

My experience over the years has been that there is a definite anti-German bias among some people who do not want see any mention of German civilian casualties. The expulsions from Eastern Europe and the post war famine receive scanty attention in the English speaking world. That is why I try to use only scholary and official secondary sources when I edit. I try my best follow the Misplaced Pages guidelines: Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Regards--Woogie10w (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I do agree, and I think the work you are doing is very valuable. At first, I didn’t really want to get involved (here at the Misplaced Pages) with matters regarding subjects like the ones we are discussing here (especially WWII related ones). But when I came across the “Nazi Germany” article, I just couldn’t ignore the anti-German, revisionist bias the article did- and (because of lack of balance), still does contain to some degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazi_Germany#Reversion_of_recent_edits_by_IIIraute

--IIIraute (talk) 14:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I have been on Misplaced Pages for five years and have found that at times it can be a frustrating experience when you find that good work that you have done is vandalized or rewritten by POV pushers. The topic of Eastern Europe and modern German-Polish history in particular has become a battleground for ethnic warriors who spend countless hours engaging in acrimonious disputes. I avoid this heisses Eisen like the plague.

Recently I tried to start a discussion on the German Wikpedia page Kriegstote des Zweiten Weltkrieges as user Gut Rechnen but found no support to help improve the page. . I have a good reading knowledge of German, but my writing skills need improvement. We could collaborate If you have an interest in improving Kriegstote des Zweiten Weltkrieges.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Please excuse my late reply. Yes, I also have experienced quite frustrating debates on the Misplaced Pages. From my experience I can tell you that some WWII related topics on the German Misplaced Pages are very much influenced by political and cultural lobbying. You will find it very difficult (even by bringing progressive, academic, well-sourced, thoughtful and reasonable suggestions) to make yourself heard. To me it looks like there is a clique of people granting absolution to each other, while very much ignoring suggestions from outsiders. I am not sure if I really want to get myself into this, as I already spend most of my professional life with similar topics. I can also tell you, that Rüdiger Overmans statistical analysis of German military personnel records is not the most popular study among many Germans; as many regard his method of statistical analysis as very problematic. However, I am very willing to assist you with any questions and sources, as well as matters regarding German grammar & writing. At the moment, I just do not have the time (and the nerves) that would be necessary to deal with this subject properly (the way it deserves to be dealt with).--IIIraute (talk) 23:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank You

Thanks for getting back to me. I wish you all the best in your professional endeavors. Regards--Woogie10w (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

December 2011

Thank you for trying to keep Misplaced Pages free of vandalism. However, one or more edits you labeled as vandalism, such as the edit at Rambo (film), are not considered vandalism under Misplaced Pages guidelines. Misplaced Pages has a stricter definition of the word "vandalism" than common usage, and mislabeling edits as vandalism can discourage newer editors. Please read Misplaced Pages:NOTVAND for more information on what is and is not considered vandalism. Thank you. SudoGhost 03:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, please be aware that you have violated WP:3RR by making 5 reverts in a matter of hours, and that making more than three reverts within a 24-hour period usually leads to a block, even if your feel you're correcting an incorrect edit. Please don't take this as an accusatory message, because that's not the intention, it's just a notification of the 3RR rule, in case you weren't aware of it. - SudoGhost 03:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the information and your help.--IIIraute (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Rambo (film)

Hi Illruate, I apologize for not responding soon, I just regestered on Misplaced Pages, and I was unsure of how to reply to something someone sent me.

As for the Rambo page,

1. I don't see any reason to label it a "German/American" movie, since it's just a movie, it was released all over the world. It was also made by American studios, and just because it also had a German produciton company doesn't make it a German movie also. It's just a movie for crying out loud, thats why I recently deleted the "German/American" part of it, and left it as and action movie, which it is, no reason to get label it as being from one country.

2. I realize that you left "action film" uncapitalized this time around, but I was uncapitalizing that because it's not proper grammar.

3. I know I have not been correcting this, but John Rambo is a Veitnam veteran, not a Cold War veteran. I know, Veitnam was a part of The Cold War, but if you ask my mom's dad and my dad's dad, they'll say they are Korean and Veitnam veterans, not Cold War vets.

JesseDBaker (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)JesseDBaker

Thank you for your reply. What you are writing here does not represent the truth. 1. Two days ago you did reply to the message I left on your talk page but then quickly deleted it again. 2. You repeatedly changed the text to "American" (not leaving this part neutral) ignoring the sources given. At your last edit you changed the "Country" section again to USA only. 3. If you read the credits (http://www.rambothefilm.com/credits.jpg), the movie was produced by several Studios FOR the Equity Pictures Medienfonds. Also, the film is copyright by the Equity Pictures Medienfonds, therefore making them the creator of the work and giving them the exclusive rights to it. The copyright holder owns the right to be credited for the work, to determine who may adapt the work to other forms and who may financially benefit from it, and other, related rights. The Equity Pictures Medienfonds basically "owns" the movie with all its intellectual property. 4. In Rambo III, John Rambo enganges on a mission to Afghanistan, fighting the Soviets in the Soviet-Afghan War. 5. Please, in future, also use the Discussion page.--IIIraute (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

1.For that reply that I deleted, I didn't think that was how you are supposed to reply, BECAUSE I JUST REGISTERED, so I deleted it, and I was looking for another way to reply.

2. The last time before you changed it back, I deleted the "German/American" part, leaving it as just an action movie. That's what it says for the previous three Rambo films, so I thought I would just leave it at that.

3. Just cause he is sent on a mission to the Afghan-Soviet war, doesn't make him a veteran of that war, that would be id he was enlisted in that war, which, I don't seem to think he was, he was just sent on mission, and was not a part of either the Soviet military, or the Mujahideen. And besides, on the other three Rambo film pages, it lists John Rambo as a Veitnam veteran, which is what he is, seeing as how he only served in the Veitnam war. He didn't technically serve in the Soviet-Afgahn War.

JesseDBaker (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)JesseDBaker

Kat Von D

This is the required warning to alert you that you are approaching WP:3RR at Kat Von D. In your edit-warring, you have inserted duplicate links that appear in both the lead and the body, and you removed a citation taken directly from the subject's own official biography because you disagreed with what it said. To prevent further edit-warring, I am requesting an WP:RfC. Please do not edit the article in question while the RfC is in progress.--Tenebrae (talk) 03:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

RfC is now active here. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)