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• WT:OR
• WT:NOR

Policy on primary sources is too extreme

At present WP:Primary states:

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.

The second sentence:

Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully.

states a useful purpose of secondary and tertiary sources: "to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources" and suggests the reasonable position that "primary sources are permitted if used carefully". These useful guidelines are followed up upon in the last sentence:

All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.

which very sensibly is intended to caution against introduction of "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims" based upon primary sources.

It then goes much farther stating:

Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided.

This statement requires some revision because it goes beyond the sensible purposes described in the rest of this paragraph to completely ban the use of primary sources unless secondary or tertiary sources are used. This statement is not required by the others, and is unnecessary to achieve the goals already pointed out. I believe it originates in the worry that contributors that compose an article using only primary sources will fall into the traps already identified in the other sentences of this paragraph, and rather than deal with that possibility, an iron law is being applied that goes too far.

There are circumstances when an article that uses only primary sources makes sense. As an example, suppose that an article were written to detail the various state requirements on becoming a district attorney. It could refer only to the laws adopted by each state in this regard, and therefore use only primary sources. It is purely descriptive and contains no interpretation, synthesis, or whatever. There would be nothing wrong with that article, and it could be a useful article on WP. However, this sentence: " Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." suggests such an article should not be accepted.

I'd suggest that this sentence be deleted from the policy. The other sentences in this paragraph suffice to avoid abuse. Brews ohare (talk) 18:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

No I oppose this. Are you really saying there are no secondary sources about the various requirements in becoming a district attorney? Or can you find a less hypothetical example to try an bolster your case please. You're allowed to use a primary source to expand a bit about the facts in a secondary source. Dmcq (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq: This is a hypothetical case of course, so let's hypothesize there are no secondary sources on this matter. Then, under these circumstances, should the article be refused?

Regardless of the particular example, the dangers in using primary sources already are spelled out, and this blanket assertion is not necessary to avoid these hazards: the policy can be cited using them directly. Brews ohare (talk) 18:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Your hypothesis is that there is a subject everyone will agree is notable and yet there is no secondary source about it. That's basically assuming that there is a problem and then because you hae assumed there is a problem complaining about the problem. We really do need a proper example. Dmcq (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no need for a particular example here, other than to aid the imagination. The point is that misuse of primary sources is already covered in the policy without this statement that "Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." Maybe you can think of circumstances that require this generalization? If so, please provide your example. Brews ohare (talk) 19:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is actually a need for a concrete example.

As worded the redundancy is an apparent attempt to wikilawyer-proof the section. That is something that is unfortunately needed. To get it removed, something more than a "What if..." or "Use your imagination..." is needed to show why.

- J Greb (talk) 19:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

J Greb: Let me see if I have understood your position. I'd try to paraphrase it as follows:

There are situations where primary sources can be misused. Let's call these "the conditions".

Unscrupulous contributors will argue that their contributions are not ruled out by "the conditions", leading to long debates.

Therefore, the practical thing to do, to avoid debate, is to say primary sources can never be used by themselves, but only to supplement what is said in secondary sources.

Maybe some articles that could be useful are prohibited in this fashion, but that is tolerable collateral damage.

Have I got your message? Brews ohare (talk) 20:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Not quite.

• The text is, or should be, clear that articles should be built relying on secondary and tertiary sources.
• Primary sources can be used, but not as the major, or only, support for the article.
• NOR is a policy which means there are going to be close to no cases where an exception would exist. When those rare exceptions come along, they are discussed either on an article talk page or an RFC. But it does require a specific case or situation, not a "Well, what if..."
• The PRIMARY section allows a little more latitude but it underlines the caution and care needed when plunking in material from a primary source. At least one example of where this latitude is applied is with articles that include a plot summary of a work of fiction. Even with that, it still boils down to there needed to be a clear example to discus if that latitude should be applied.
• In general, editing from primary sources has been contentious. The wording needs to be clear if redundant so as to avoid weaseling to try to avoid the policy.

Now, if you have a specific example of an article or article section that you believe is an exception to NOR in general or PRIMARY specifically, a discussion of that topic would be a good idea to see if there is consensus for it being an acceptable exception. But that would not be grounds for loosening the policy or lessening that cautions in it.

- J Greb (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

An example where "Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided" is too extreme would be any article about laws in US states. Many secondary sources could, and would, be used to summarize the most common positions taken by the various states. For example, see Gun laws in the United States (by state). But the details for each state usually refer to sources provided by the government of each state, which of course, are primary sites. If the present policy were strictly enforced, a secondary source that describes each state would have to be found, and only then could a primary source be used to supplement the secondary source(s). Jc3s5h (talk) 20:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

If the opinion of a state is not mentioned in reliable, apposite secondary sources, why are we mentioning it at Gun laws in the United States (by state) at all. Your example is an invitation to synthesis. Articles, "based purely on primary sources" are inherently fabulism and original research. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Gun law isn't something I'm interested in but what you are describing sounds like what is allowed for primary sources, that they can be used to give precise details of things described in secondary sources. If there is stuff there that secondary sources have shown no interest in that would be a worry. Dmcq (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

J Greb, Dmcq: To summarize your position: To avoid "weaseling" or "wikilawyering" WP:Primary is deliberately made overly restrictive with the purpose of forcing any contributor to WP to argue that their specific and particular use of primary sources is OK, and so an exception should be granted.

The problem with this tack is the following: anyone opposed to the contribution will simply quote WP:Primary:

" Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided."

This position will end the discussion as any counterargument will be taken as contrary to this provision.

So far as I can see, such collateral damage is perfectly all right with you two. Am I right? Brews ohare (talk) 22:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

You have requested an example of a good article that violates this provision. However, you also already have said that if an example be found it is not an argument to change WP:Primary, but simply an isolated instance for which an exception might be made.

According to my experience, with this language in WP:Primary there is no likelihood whatsoever of an exception being made for any example, however worthy.

That is why I think the wording should be changed to state what is necessary, namely, retain the other sentences in this paragraph that have specific objections, and delete the vaguely general statement quoted above. Brews ohare (talk) 22:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that Brews is right about the sentence ("Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided") going too far. Half a sentence counts as "material" on Misplaced Pages. Any single fact counts as "material". I think what we mean here is something more like "major sections of articles" or "whole articles", not "a couple of words". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly agree with WhatamIdoing's clarification... indeed there are (limited) situations when citing a primary source should not be avoided, when citing a primary source should be actively encouraged (a quote for example, should always be cited to the original... as secondary sources may misquote or take the quote out of its original context).

So the instruction needs to be modified... however, let's not go too far... while there certainly is a place for primary sources, the core of any article should be based on secondary sources. For Notability reasons if not for OR reasons. Blueboar (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

J Greb, Dmcq: Maybe you could rationalize requiring a WP article stating a fact to refer to a secondary source instead of directly citing the primary source in WP? If, as explained in the WP:Primary policy, this fact was built upon to draw an inference or whatever, of course a secondary source is needed. But if all that is done is to cite a Wikimedia article that says "Jimmy Wales is on the board", why do we need a secondary source that says that "Wikimedia says that: 'Jimmy Wales is on the board' (See Wikimedia)"? Brews ohare (talk) 22:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

And to pre-empt the response that this is fine for an isolated fact, what if the entire article were to consist of exactly such things, for example, WP:Formal organization? Brews ohare (talk) 22:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia invites sociologists in to discover who does what on Misplaced Pages. Your facts are not straightforward. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Your summary of what I said is nothing like what I said. Please come down from the clouds if you wish to have a reasonable debate, I am not given to arguing about the number of angels on the head of a pin. Dmcq (talk) 22:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq: There is nothing I've said that is not concrete. I've provided a simple question, a simple example, a simple statement of what should be changed. Just who's argument is "in the clouds"? BTW "debate" is not the goal, but "discussion". Brews ohare (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Well your standards for concrete don't satisfy my criteria for that. I'll keep an eye on this and perhaps come back if I see something I consider concrete and think I can con contribute to. Dmcq (talk) 23:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is a waste of time because it begins with a false example. Suppose for example that no newspapers or other secondary sources had covered the moon landing, the Second World War, the last U.S. presidential election - then neither would we. But their coverage provides evidence of their importance. TFD (talk) 03:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Most newspaper articles are primary sources. See WP:PRIMARYNEWS for more information. Newspapers show "evidence of their importance" by being independent, not by being secondary. WP:Secondary does not mean independent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages I am confident that the talk pages of articles would resolve the issue of whether a primary source is appropriate for a particular situation or not. When the matter being reported is not exceptional, promotional or controversial, discussions on the talk page of articles should be able to amicably resolve the usage of primary sources appropriately. I'll strongly recommend not changing the primary source policy here as the basis of BLPPRIMARY and the reason why we excluded mentioning considerable portions of PRIMARY in BLPPRIMARY was because the same was already mentioned here. When I authored BLPCRIME, the same primary issue was considered quite strongly. Would you accuse an individual of being guilty of a crime because a court trial record confirms the same? Or would you wait till a reliable source mentions the same? I mention these questions basically not to get answers, but to reinforce that instead of changing the statement here, one should use talk page discussions. Yet, there is a mid-path that I could suggest. We could change the statements alluding to "material based purely on primary sources should be avoided" to "challenged material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." Does this sound doable? Wifione 16:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well that what it is really but the phraseology sounds to me like open season for people to trawl around old court records and suchlike and stick in stuff. I really would not prefer that sort of original research. Dmcq (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing gained in refusing to allow a primary source for a simple statement of fact (like, "the court record states ...", or "WP says it is structured in an hierarchy consisting of ...") and we all agree about that. However, the present policy says no article can be based entirely on primary sources, and makes no exception for any type of article. That is the issue being raised here. So simply as an example, an article with the subject "State requirements for the office of district attorney" with subsections: "Arizona requirements", "California requirements", and so on for all the states, is disallowed if it uses only state primary documents as a basis of the requirements. Why do that?

In fact, the articles District attorney and United States Attorney, violate WP:Primary, refer only to primary sources, and should be removed.

It is simply ducking the issue to say that no such article has any value, is notable, or that secondary sources can be found that say "according to A, A requires x" so that instead of quoting A we can quote the secondary source that quotes A. Brews ohare (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

We do not all agree that trawling round court records for things that haven't been mentioned in secondary sources is a reasonable thing to do in articles. Only if a court case has been mentioned in secondary sources are we entitled to inspect the court records and get details from them. See WP:BLP#Misuse of primary sources. And p.s. WP:WEIGHT applies if it just gets a one-liner so it might have to be omitted for that reason. Dmcq (talk) 23:24, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I will also note that District attorney does not violate WP:Primary, because it does not cite any sources (either primary or secondary). That is certainly a problem that needs to be fixed, but it is a different problem from the one being raised here. United States Attorney does cite secondary sources... it also cites a lot of primary sources. The question is whether the article overly relies on the primary sources. It may. I suspect that a lot of the material currently supported by primary sources could (and should) be supported by secondary ones instead. If so, we should swap sources. Blueboar (talk) 23:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC) Blueboar (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

And this is the most appropriate view (even though I've mentioned that we could add "challenged" to the primary statement). The fact is that the word "avoid" is not equal to the word "prohibited". In other words, certain self published sources (primary) can be used as sources for themselves as per policy here, as long as they are not promotional, self-aggrandizing, controversial and similar exceptional claims. Remember, any challenged claim (even if it is about someone's name or designation etc) becomes an exceptional claim if it is purely supported by primary sources, and this is policy. Therefore, I really don't think there is any issue here. Avoid material purely based on primary sources, taking into account our SPS policy. Wifione 03:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea. Let me explain why with an example: Did Bill Clinton say, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", or did he not?

• We've got a video of him actually pronouncing those words. That video is a primary source. The video is uncontested in the real world. Nobody has ever claimed that the video is a hoax. The video is, in fact, the most authoritative source in the universe for the question at hand: did he say these words, or not?
• So let's pretend that somebody decides to challenge that fact. WP:CHALLENGEs do not have to be based on any rational concern: if it happens, it happens. You could challenge anything you want, for any reason you want. Maybe the person has political motives here. Maybe the person is a crackpot. Maybe the person hopes to erase any mention of sex from Misplaced Pages. It doesn't matter: challenged is challenged.
• Your rule would prohibit us from using the single most authoritative source in the universe to support this fact.

I don't think that's what you want, but that's what you'd get if you said that challenged material could not be supported by a primary source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• If the video was quoted by a reliable source, you could use it. But if the video was uploaded by Mr. Clinton, then it remains a pure and proper primary source. WELLKNOWN; if you don't have multiple secondary reliable sources supporting this claim, then the video source is unreliable. I know of many well known personalities (I'm not including Mr. Clinton) attempting such stuff for publicity. This example may be actually extreme; yet, that's the point I guess. I'm ok with or without including the term challenge, as the current Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves policy takes care of this issue. Wifione 05:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that's not true. The video clip is a primary source no matter who taped it and no matter who published it. "Primary" is not a synonym for "self-published".

We aren't, by the way, talking about a YouTube clip of dubious origins. We're talking about a public speech that was broadcast by practically every television station in the world that has any pretensions to a news program, and that can be found on the websites of news organizations as well as in the National Archives and Records Administration. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. I just suspect that we're both arguing for the same issue from different perspectives. The video clip does remain a primary source. But as per BLPPRIMARY, you can use it only to augment a reliable source. Does that sound better worded? Best. Wifione 04:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

as an addon to this discussion, what does "reliably published" mean in this context. Reprints of letters/videos/etc? by reputable sources? This was coming up in a discussion regarding a band, where an editor was justifying use of the bands website under primary sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The current wording of NOR is fine: avoided does not mean never. One reason why primary sources should be avoided is that Misplaced Pages is a sitting duck for cherry picking POV pushers who could quote extracts from various complex legal proceedings to suggest a conclusion that is contrary to subsequent developments (maybe politician X was found guilty of molesting children, but a secondary source might mention that X was completely exonerated in the appeal). A video of an interview might show a biologist saying that "evolution is junk" when in fact the biologist immediately corrected the statement to "creationism is junk" when they jumbled talk was pointed out to them after the interview. Primary sources are good for things like illustrating what a secondary source says, and some other limited stuff. Johnuniq (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

open research

open research must be mentioned. the confusion between wikipedia and an open research tool is often made by newbies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehmedmed (talk • contribs) 22:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Well the no original research policy is mentioned all over the place and I'd have thought a clue might be in the 'No'. I don't think extra words help to make things clearer, saying open research might give people the idea that other research is okay for instance. I think a Just Say No approach is better. Dmcq (talk) 22:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

people will get less confused by this policy if their energy are redirected to Original Research wikis. 'go there' is more constructive than 'just no'.

People violating WP:OR are simply doing open research in the wrong place. I had no clue about open research before finding it by chance by myself. It saves the energy of everyone, as I no longer even try to contribute to WP.Mehmedmed (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not keep inserting the stuff when two other people disagree. It may be useful but this is a policy about putting stuff into Misplaced Pages. It is not a howto about doing research. People violating WP:OR do it for all sorts of reasons and I'm pretty certain very few of them are doing anything worthwhile or willing to put their efforts elsewhere. I'm glad you actually have found a place to expend your efforts on something useful but I would think that your case is very rare. If a person wants to do research they can search for research and find out about it. Misplaced Pages says it is not the place for research. The policy is not the place for this any more than the passport office is the place to advise you about a good hotel. Dmcq (talk) 00:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid you hold too negative feelings on the intentions of contributors facing 'WP:OR': it is merely people who think they have some knowledge to share, and go to the most famous website where such contribution is possible. They just leave WP when they find that the true story is more complicated (weird rules, etc...), and go spending their time elsewhere. I thought I could divert some of those people to websites they were really looking for.

But I have to admit I do not hold a better view on editors bullying contributors with 'WP:OR': they implicitly convey the message:'do not introduce your own ideas in articles: if you really were smart enough to have interesting ideas, you would not be here on WP: you would spend your time publishing in prestigious journals'.

You are just confirming my fear, and this is why worthwhile contributors no longer come to WP, they prefer writing for prestigious journals, or Scholarpedia, etc...(when they are given the opportunity to hear about the latters). If you are too negative on this issue, I just have to give up too.Mehmedmed (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Well thanks for expending the effort trying to be helpful even if others have different ideas about accepting your advice and good luck with wherever it is that you have gone to with your original research. If some other site eventually becomes more successful with a different way of doing things that's life but variety is strength, it is better if different sites do different things. Dmcq (talk) 23:35, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Text too short to convey meaning

....apparently . Please discuss. B——C_ritical 17:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:POLICY#Content says 'be as concise as possible—but no more concise. Verbosity is not a reliable defense against misinterpretation. Omit needless words. Direct, concise writing may be more clear than rambling examples. Footnotes and links to other pages may be used for further clarification.' However I haven't any particular objection against either. Dmcq (talk) 20:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Prefer the longer version... trimming to omit needless words is all fine and good ... but I think some of the words that were omitted to create the shorter version are needed. Blueboar (talk) 22:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I also prefer the longer version. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Longer version seems more clear. Perhaps a bit of trim could happen.Gsonnenf (talk) 12:36, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Wifione general approach is wrong

Wifione wants to

• Require multiple secondary independent sources for an analytic claim. So we can't quote an expert, writing a secondary source, who has a different view than the rest of the experts, even if we also include the mainstream view.
• Analysis of a primary source must be from multiple secondary independent sources. Not all primary sources gather enough attention for multible, findable, secondary independent sources to exist.
• The editor's attitude toward primary sources appears to be that primary sources really ought to be prohibited, but a primary source can be allowed as an interim measure until a secondary source is found.

I advocate removal of most of Wifione's edits to this policy. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Well from that little bit it seems you do not believe in any sort of citation at all. Could you please substantiate what you say please by pointing out what has prompted this and what you want changed in the policy about it, after all this page is about improving the policy page. Or just say why you wrote it and we might be able to work something out from that. Dmcq (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I see something that has been inserted in the primary sources aboutr requiring secondary sources rather than a secondary source. I'll revert that. Dmcq (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Quotes taken from this version.

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires reliable, independent secondary sources for that interpretation." This statement changed to plural form by Wifione.

"Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." I couldn't find who added this statement, but the discussion above indicates Wikione supports it. It might be a reasonable requirement for an entire article, or a substantial section, but "material" can mean a short phrase.

New requirement: "Articles may make an analytic or evaluative claim only if that has been published by multiple independent, reliable secondary sources." Again, not appropriate for short claims that are not a central thesis of the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted the bits about requiring multiple secondaries for an evaluation of a primary source. The bit about that material based purely on primary sources should be avoided is I believe in line with the rest of that paragraph. Material from primaries should not be brought in unless it is justified by a secondary source referring to it. Bringing in bits from a primary source referred to by a secondary source but unrelated to what is talked about in the secondary source is very problematic, they should only be used to fill in factual details. It is often okay to use them but they should not automatically be considered okay and open season for trawling for facts. Separate manuals say what they consider okay from primary sources and I think a general avoid unless allowed or justified is correct. It stops WIkipedia being filled with trivia that have no weight. Dmcq (talk) 17:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, just noticed this thread. Jc3s5h, you have valid points and I believe Dmcq has undertaken one change you pointed out. In general, you must have seen I have no problems with any version of the policy that is accepted by consensus. The plural was incorporated by me keeping in mind that multiple would mean not one, but at least two sources. I don't think that's too tough a requirement to ask for in the case of an expert who in his primary source article may have a different view from the mainstream. If only one reliable source has reported this expert's divergent view, there is still pretty much a question, on a case by case basis of course, on whether such a divergent view is worth being included in the article. But like I mentioned, I've no issues with any changes/additions as long as they adhere to consensus; and with this particular change, no issues at all. Wifione 06:13, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that requiring multiple secondary sources is a very bad idea, and I suspect that the fundamental problem is that Wifione doesn't really grasp what the difference is between a primary and a secondary source.

We should not be requiring multiple meta-analyses or systematic reviews to be able to say that pre-term babies who are given corticosteroids before birth are less likely to die than those who aren't. Just one such secondary source should be enough. I could understand (but would oppose) a desire for multiple primary sources (a peer-reviewed report in an academic journal about a randomized controlled trial is a high-quality primary source) to make such a claim, but not multiple secondaries. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, as I mentioned above , I sense that we both seem to be arguing for a similar issue from different perspectives. Multiple sources to support a contentious, never reported before or divergent viewpoint is surely a preferred idea (Why would it be, as you mention a bad idea?). Taking your example, if just one secondary source has reported that "pre-term babies who are given corticosteroids before birth are less likely to die than those who aren't," and multiple secondary sources have reported that "pre-term babies who are given corticosteroids before birth are more likely to die than those who aren't," you will have to take a call on how much weight you provide to each assertion - and that's a call to be taken on the talk page of the article, not here. Again, do note that the change to a source has already been made by Dmcq; and I have no issues with the same. Kind regards. Wifione 05:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Policy on primary sources is too extreme

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

WP allows primary sources to support isolated facts. Comment is requested here upon extending WP:V and WP:Primary to explicitly allow entire articles based upon primary sources, provided these articles contain no synthesis, analysis, or interpretation of the original sources. A summary of a recent discussion follows this RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:No original research. Brews ohare (talk) 18:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Summary of discussion on this Talk page

I'll try to summarize the views expressed.

Topic The issue was raised that statements from WP:Primary,

Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided.

According to Misplaced Pages:Notability

if no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article

and also, according to WP:V:

Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic.

These statements are too strong because they do not allow any articles that are made up entirely of primary sources. In WP:V there are these conditions upon using primary self-published sources:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

The opinion expressed was that the first four of these requirements for self-published sources sufficed to prevent misuse of articles containing only primary sources, and the last restriction was not needed, and indeed would reject some useful articles.

Educational comment: "Primary" is not another way to spell "self-published". This entire proposal is based on ignorance of what a primary source is. See, e.g., the extensive quotation of WP:SPS, followed by assertions that this is what WP:V says about primary sources. I have struck the erroneous assertion that WP:V imposes these conditions on primary sources and added the accurate bold-faced words to the previous statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Responses Response to these observations were negative, but not directly relevant to the issue. They fall into these categories:

No useful articles like this exist, even in principle, so it is a non-issue. There are such articles, and an example is given later.

If an article like this comes up, it can be dealt with as a possible exception to policy, and no policy change is needed. This is a utopian position; exceptions to policy are very rare. And there is no need to force this situation: just change the policy.

If an article like this comes up, secondary sources always can be found to replace or supplement the primary sources, so the question comes down to whether the article is "primarily" based upon the primary sources. It is not true that secondary sources always can be found; books are written with different objectives than WP articles.

I find none of these objections addresses the point raised, namely there is no need for the blanket refusal to accept articles based entirely upon primary sources, and the four first items in the list of reservations above suffice without the fifth reservation. To assist in this consideration the following example was provided:

Example straw man

an article with the subject "State requirements for the office of district attorney" with subsections: "Arizona requirements", "California requirements", and so on for all the states.

If the present policy were strictly enforced, a secondary source that describes each state would have to be found, and only then could a primary source be used to supplement the secondary source(s). The policy has the nonsensical effect of requiring a secondary source and citing: "The book Law in America says 'Arizona law says x (Ref: Arizona law)' " instead of saying directly 'Arizona law says x (Ref: Arizona law)'. WP would not require that for this specific fact, so why should it be required for an article consisting only of such specific facts, with no interpretation, analysis, or synthesis?

In fact, there is an article already on WP United States Attorney, that is somewhat like this, but does have some secondary sources, and present policy raises the non-issue of whether it is primarily based upon primary sources. Such a consideration should arise only under the circumstances described in the first four restrictions cited above.

Are there further comments on the proposal to drop the last-named restriction upon articles consisting only of primary sources?

Comments

If you are not satisfied with the comments above in this same talk page you can raise an WP:RfC about it. Dmcq (talk) 17:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dmcq: That sounds like a good idea. I have put in an RfC template

• Comment: This change in policy will avoid tendentious articles by excluding synthesis, interpretation, and so forth, to allow only strict reporting of the content in primary sources. This policy change will allow articles in WP that are simply descriptions of what sources say about themselves. Examples are articles like WP:Formal organization or United States Attorney. A policy change avoids arguments about whether such articles are "primarily" based upon primary sources. It also avoids the need to find a secondary source S to say things like "Secondary source S says 'Jimmy Wales is on the board of the Wikimedia Foundation' (See primary source Wikimedia)" and instead to say directly 'Jimmy Wales is on the board of the Wikimedia Foundation' (See primary source Wikimedia). Brews ohare (talk) 18:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: The aspect of notability is missing from all this, and without it, it opens the door to huge number of articles of non-synthetic, straight-up summary of primary sources but without any context. The impression I get from this discussion is we are mostly talking about list-style articles that summarize in a non-synthetic manner several disparate primary sources. It is not that it is bad to do this, but the problem is that there needs to be some reason why we have this list. In the specific example, one certainly can find enough secondary sources to explain what a DA is, and that the route to becoming a DA are diverse by state; once it is established that the routes and means to becoming a DA is a notable topic, primary-sourcing the individual state policies makes perfect sense. But if the list as a whole could not show notability through secondary sources, then the list shouldn't exist in a stand-alone form.
  There's a lot of other complex interactions here when you move away from list-style articles, but still, we do expect every article to show notability, and thus show some amount of secondary sources. The ratio of primary to secondary may be vastly skewed depending on the topic (again, for the DA example, with 50 states, that's 50 primary sources, while I'd only expect to have to see 3 or 4 to establish the notability of the pathway to becoming a DA - that is not a problem in terms of this discussion). --MASEM (t) 19:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: I'd agree that some such articles may not be notable, but if they should not be on WP because of that, doesn't Misplaced Pages:Notability get rid of them? Shouldn't we reject articles with other faults for their actual failings, not because they refer to primary sources? Brews ohare (talk) 19:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Notability requires coverage beyond primary sources. Mind you, I recognize the complex issue where we do know there's secondary coverage but prefer the primary as it is less interpretive (such as the process to be a DA by state), so it is unlikely that notability would affect this type of article. But when only primary sources are available - no secondary ones at all - then it is failing notability so deletion would be appropriate. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Notability as written does require deletion, but it also should be rewritten. The important issue here is WP:Indiscriminate, which covers WP is not just a collection of information. Again, shouldn't we reject articles with other faults for their actual failings, not because they refer to primary sources? Brews ohare (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The actual failing of an article that only can be sourced to primary source is that there's no evidence of why it is important to include in a work that is not an indiscriminate collection of information. For example, from the video game area, I could easily make an article about the weapons in a video game, all sourced from the game and strategy guide. But unless sources go into any secondary, analytic depth about the weapons, this information has no importance to the larger picture of being an encyclopedia. --MASEM (t) 20:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Your example can be eliminated from WP using WP:Indiscriminate. An article like WP:Formal organization uses only primary sources but it is useful as a guide to the many pages describing WP organization. An article like the "straw man" above could be similarly useful. Of course, this information could be used for other purposes, in articles drawing comparisons, evaluations and so forth, and those would require secondary sources. Why be restricted to articles making judgements and assessments?

Why assume absolutely no useful articles exist that are based upon primary sources alone? Why not let the applicable policies like WP:Indiscriminate be applied to eliminate inappropriate articles? Why assume we are smart enough to anticipate all possibilities, and rule this class of articles out altogether? Brews ohare (talk) 20:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

We need to establish why the topic is relevant to the reader. Without this, it is just datum, and not appropriate to the encyclopedia, as well as a conditioned that can be gamed. To show a topic to be relevant , we need secondary sources to show that's the case, otherwise, it is just original research.

I would argue that most articles that you point to that are presently only sourced by primary sources can be augmented with a few choice secondary sources in the lead to establish that point, ergo establishing notability and of course moving the article from being only sourced to primary sources, avoiding the issues of deletion/merging. --MASEM (t) 21:19, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see my remarks to Dmcq below. Brews ohare (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

An article like WP:Formal organization uses only primary sources...

No. There is no such article. There is a project page, but no article. See the "WP:" at the start? That means "not an article". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Well knowing which books are on which floor in a university would help Misplaced Pages's educational aims, but should I really be putting in an article about every single library saying what the layout of its bookshelves is? And there are lots of recipe books around, surely being able to find a recipe easily is good and these are in books so shouldn't I stick their contents lists into Misplaced Pages? And how about the current train timetables? That'll get students to class in time. We really do need secondary sources to stop Misplaced Pages being filled with stuff that just isn't notable no matter how useful it is. A secondary source is visible evidence somebody finds the stuff notable rather than editors doing original research and deciding things like that for themselves. There is no weight without a secondary source. Dmcq (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq: You have identified some possible articles that use only primary sources, and should not be on WP. However, WP:Indiscriminate is the relevant policy here: WP is not just a collection of information. I'd suggest that there are some articles of this type that are in fact useful, and rather than be clairvoyant and dismiss all such articles blindfolded, we should dismiss them for their actual failings, using pertinent policies, not because they are based only upon primary sources. Brews ohare (talk) 20:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

That is exactly my point. How do you show something is indiscriminate? I gave explanations of why each of my examples was useful and furthered the educational purpose of Misplaced Pages. Who are you to say that I'm wrong? We could have AfD's all day and night with editors fighting over tons of things like this without some decent bright line. And that minimal requirement is notability as shown by secondary sources otherwise it is a fairly quick exit. Dmcq (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq & Masem: The purpose for such an article could be (for example) to act as a map locating the topics or sources outlined. Additionally, the article should contain enough summary detail to enable a reader to find what they are looking for. That is what WP:Formal organization does.

The statement of purpose doesn't have to be from a secondary source. In fact, a secondary source for (say) a guide to some classification of web sites, might be hard to find, even if the guide were useful.

If it is difficult to decide whether the statement of purpose is sufficient for inclusion, then maybe that debate should occur. Of course, there may be no unanimity over the value of "Regulations regarding dogs and rabies in American cities". The debate would decide if there was really any interest in the topic. Acceptance shouldn't be decided simply because all the sources were to government web sites.

Possibly, the proposed revision of policies should include a requirement for a "statement of purpose" and provide some guidelines for an acceptable statement? Over time a sensible set of guidelines would evolve, don't you think? Brews ohare (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If we are talking specifically mainspace articles that would fall as "outlines" or the like, we generally do not apply notability guidelines to them, in the same manner we don't apply them to disambiguation pages - any page that helps in general navigation is ok. As part of the larger picture on that, however, if you are creating a navigation page for a very broad topic, it is absolutely certain that the topic is notable.

A statement of purpose does need to be secondary, otherwise you enter into the realm of COI to maintain an article on WP.

But let be me clear: there is a difference between an article that currently has only primary sources but it is known that secondary sources exist that repeat the primary sources; and an article where only primary sources exists and no secondary sources have been found outside of the article itself. The former we'd generally keep, because as long as there's some secondary interest, that's evidence of notability.

Your example of dogs and rabies raises a different problem. The subject of dog and rabies regulations is notable, and you probably can source the local regulations for them and fill the article with primary sources. But would we ever allow such an article? Likely not, not due to sourcing but due to it being indiscriminate - discussing the specific regulations per town (10,000s of them) is excessive for a encyclopedia that is meant to summarize. An article discussing the types of regulations in broad strokes, borrowing examples from specific regulations using primary sources, would be more appropriate here. But this is not an issue because of the primary sources, just the shear number of entries. --MASEM (t) 23:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Masem: You suggest that mainspace articles that are outlines are not usually subjected to WP:Notability, which is good news. However, this policy does state:

"If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article"

So the fact WP:Notability is seldom used this way probably is because WP:V and WP:Primary come to editors' minds more readily. I'd take it that you would be agreeable to explicitly exempting 'outlines or the like' from these strictures against articles relying upon primary sources alone? Is that so? Brews ohare (talk) 14:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

My read of the various guidelines that talk about outlines and other formal organization mainspace "articles" used mostly for navigation is that they are generally not subject to the same content and inclusion policies as they work on the assumption that the outline is not introducing anything new to WP; however, there is disagreement if WP should support these types of "articles" that goes beyond WP:OR and other content policies, as well as WP:N and inclusion guidelines. For purposes of this discussion I would exclude discussion of outline and navigation-style articles since how policy and guidelines apply to them are different, and instead focus on articles with new content and how primary sources apply to them. --MASEM (t) 14:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: I'd appreciate some guidance to find these guidelines exempting outlines and such from WP:Primary, WP:Notability, and WP:V. It may be that these exemptions are really all I am looking for here, and some language in WP:Primary, WP:Notability, and WP:V referring to these guidelines would be adequate to my concept of what is needed here. Brews ohare (talk) 14:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, the problem I see with that is that the example being used, the article on the various state requirements for becoming a DA, would not be an outline or similar type of article and that seems to be the type of article we're focusing on. So I don't think this advice is going to help with the concept you're trying to set. --MASEM (t) 14:57, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the language you are aware of could be helpful? It seems that you think the definition of "outline or the like" needs extension somehow. I'd guess we could come up with some kind of trial balloon? Brews ohare (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have begun such a trial balloon approach in a comment further down the page. Please take a look. Brews ohare (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment:

  are very close to an event, often accounts written by people who are directly involved, offering an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on... a scientific paper documenting a new experiment is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources.... Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.

  It seems to me this rule says it all. If, for example, Misplaced Pages wanted an article about Pepys' diary and used only the diary from its initiation, in simple terms that would merely be one of two things: a pure summarisation using only the diary, or, direct quotes from the diary in a piecemeal way. Either usage is OR without secondary sources, and that is why I think article creation rules should remain as they are now. May I offer a real counterexample with Birthstones: several lists are in the article, including the Gem trade and Jewelers (both of America). However, without secondary and tertiary sources behind them, the article would only look like a commercial advert for the two associations, nothing more. As it is, the article was created as a well-rounded and encyclopedic article about birthstones. A good specific example I can cite is mineralogist Georg F. Kunz's work, which is perfect as secondary reference on the subject and is cited in the article. It cannot stand without Kunz or its other secondary citations- but if one were going to make an article about birthstones using only one source, that seems to me equivalent to the change being proposed here. For all those reasons I oppose this suggested change to the rules.--Djathinkimacowboy 05:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Djathink: You raise an important point, a possible misuse of primary sources to provide a parochial view of a subject by reporting only part of a subject through primary sources. I'd respond to this objection in several ways. First, all articles evolve, and if a first presentation of a topic is based too narrowly on primary sources, those recognizing this fact can add secondary sources (if there are some) or flesh out the presentation with other primary sources, or more balanced quotations from the primary sources themselves. Second, if objections to the article can be raised using criteria of WP policies that are not related to primary sources, those policies should be applied, not the objection to use of primary sources. For example, WP:NPOV comes to mind. Third, there are in place already important restraints upon the use of primary sources quite apart from the condition that not only primary sources be used. I think these conditions (which roughly speaking disallow interpretation, synthesis, and evaluation) should suffice to control major abuse of primary sources. The aim here is not to allow unbridled use of primary sources, but to remove the restriction that "no article shall rely primarily upon primary sources." It may be that removal of this restriction will require additional stipulations upon use of primary sources: that seems fine with me. I simply feel that the present "no article shall rely primarily upon primary sources" is a blunt instrument where a scalpel should be used instead. Brews ohare (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Summaries of wide reaching government legislation can support an article on there own. Mundane, non-controversial but important legislation may not spawn secondary sources for a time, but a summary of such legislation is important encyclopedic knowledge. When discussing the "asserted position/policy" of a person or group, a primary source is the most reliable source and should be used over secondary sources. Content without notability, etc, is best handled under its respective policy. wp:primary should not be used as a tool to enforce policies covered elsewhere.Gsonnenf (talk) 12:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you really saying governments can pass wide reaching government legislation of note without anybody secondary sources commenting on it? Dmcq (talk) 13:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The key point here is the last statement, which is the thrust of this entire thread: WP:Primary should not be used as a tool to enforce policies covered elsewhere. Or perhaps, WP:Primary should not be used as a substitute for enforcing other policies. Brews ohare (talk) 13:34, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want to talk about removing the definition of primary out of the Original research policy that's something else but currently this policy is the place to go for finding what primary sources are. That part is integral to how primary sources can be used. It would help nobody and it certainly wouldn't support editors if we have to go round the houses trying to build that up from the various policies instead of stating it in a straightforward statement in a description of primary sources. The asserted policies of an organisation are only of interest if its policies are of interest and you need secondary sources for that. I think people may be mixing up verifiability and citation here, citations are only needed if verifiability is disputed. Dmcq (talk) 14:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq: I don't think this thread is about changing the definition of primary sources. It is about replacement of the present language that says more or less "no article is acceptable that uses only primary sources" with language that allows such articles subject to the other restrictions already in place. These strictures include those against interpretation, evaluation, or synthesis. Maybe if "no article is acceptable that uses only primary sources" is deleted, some different wording will be needed. Any suggestions? Brews ohare (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

For example, one suggestion arising from Masem's comments would be to replace "no article" with a list of articles that could be used this way: "outlines and the like are acceptable that use only primary sources" subject, of course, to other WP policies and to the requirements for no interpretation, synthesis, or evaluation of the primary sources. Brews ohare (talk) 14:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq, if you feel something is not notable you can bring it up on a talk page and delete it under WP:NOTE. Some topics with secondary sources are not notable, some topics based on primary sources are notable. Editors should not be forced to hope for some obscure secondary source, such as a brief confirming article that a mundane non-controversial policy was passed, when there is consensus that the primary source is far more authoritative and notable then the secondary source. Having a mix of poorly focused rules enforcing a distinct goal (notability) will only encourage people to game the system and create bizarre intertwined wikilawyer arguments. Gsonnenf (talk) 02:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Here are some possible approaches to relaxing the present restriction that "no article is acceptable that is based upon only primary sources":

• Approach (1): Subject always to all WP policies regarding synthesis, point-of-view, interpretation, evaluation, notability and so forth, articles using only primary sources are allowed, but of course may be amended at any time to include secondary sources or additional primary sources. It is anticipated that most articles of this nature are preliminary, and will become full-fledged articles in time.
• Approach (2): Subject always to all WP policies regarding synthesis, point-of-view, interpretation, evaluation, notability and so forth, articles using only primary sources are allowed that are intended only to facilitate the navigation of sources pertaining to a topic. As such the sources may be quoted or outlined strictly for the purpose of guidance to the content of the sources, to assist a reader to find their way to the sources that are pertinent to their interest.

Approach (1) is very open-ended and simply amounts to dropping the restriction altogether, subject of course to other policies.

Approach (2) is restricted, and replaces the outright ban with a more specific allowance of certain types of article. The specification of allowed articles could be made more restrictive or less restrictive: maybe some suggestions could be entertained? Brews ohare (talk) 15:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Brews... Your proposals contain an internal contradiction. You say: "Subject to <WP:Notability> articles using only primary sources are allowed". The problem is WP:Notability says: "Sources, for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. In other words WP:Notability requires at least one secondary source, and therefore indicates that articles using only primary sources would NOT be allowed. To restate your proposals, you are saying: "Subject to WP:Notability (which requires at least one secondary source) it is ok to write an article with no secondary sources". Contradiction! Blueboar (talk) 16:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good way of putting it. If an article is of the type subject to notability requirements, there is no way it can get by on primary sources alone within the article. If the article is of the type that notability does not apply (which presently is only includes disamb pages), then primary sources alone are fine, but usually these types of articles don't need to be sourced anyway since they're navigational in purpose. --MASEM (t) 16:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Blueboar and Masem: Excuse any confusion on this point. As outlined at the outset of this RfC, it is proposed to change the wording regarding this matter in WP:V, WP:Primary, and WP:Notability (and any other places where this restriction pops up). As you point out, it makes no sense to change one policy and not the rest.

Masem: I gather that you believe WP:Notability does not apply to articles of the type described in Approach (2). However, WP:Notability's categorical refusal:

"If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article

does not explicitly exempt navigational articles. Perhaps changes in all the governing policies would suffice that specifically exempt navigational articles from a requirement for secondary sources? Brews ohare (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, Secondary does not mean third-party. You need to find out what the term primary actually means before you embarrass yourself any further. Eliminating a requirement for secondary sources will not have the smallest effect on the separate and unrelated requirement that WP:Independent sources have taken notice of the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing: Of course, you are right that these two things are different. To restate matters more clearly:

Perhaps WP policies can be rewritten to allow navigational articles to be based entirely upon primary sources. This rule is an example of what I have called Approach (2) above.

Brews ohare (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It may be best if you list out some examples what you think are "navigational articles" where this advice on primary sources would be intended, as I have a feeling there's a disconnect here. That may help to clarify what changes you want. --MASEM (t) 19:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: The trial balloon for a "definition" is:

A navigational article is one intended only to facilitate the navigation of primary sources pertaining to a topic. In a navigational article, the primary sources may be quoted or outlined strictly for the purpose of guidance to the content of the sources, to assist a reader to find their way to the sources that are pertinent to their interest. As with all articles, any interpretation, evaluation, or synthesis of views in the primary sources must be substantiated by secondary or tertiary sources.

How's that? Brews ohare (talk) 19:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

First, I think it would be helpful to distinguish between an "article" and a "page". The purpose of an article is to present information on a topic. The purpose of a navigation page (such as a dab) is not to present information - it's purpose is to aid readers navigate Misplaced Pages and find articles on the topics they are looking for.

That said - There is no need to rewrite our content policies to allow navigation pages to be based entirely upon primary sources... because navigation pages are not articles, and our content policies only apply to Articles. There is no reason to allow navigation pages to be cited to primary sources, because navigation pages are not required to cite any sources... Navigation pages are not subject to our content policies. . Articles require sources, but navigation pages are not articles.... they are simply aids to locate articles. Blueboar (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Blueboar: We are running into semantics here. The above is to be viewed as a definition of a completely new category of article. Perhaps we need a new designation. How about this:

A familiarization article is one intended only to facilitate the acquaintance with primary sources pertaining to a topic. In a familiarization article, the primary sources may be quoted or outlined strictly for the purpose of guidance to the content of the sources, to assist a reader to become familiar with the sources that are pertinent to their interest. As with all articles, any interpretation, evaluation, or synthesis of views in the primary sources must be substantiated by secondary or tertiary sources.

The follow up on this is the statement in relevant policy pages that familiarization articles can be based entirely upon primary sources, but if any interpretation, evaluation, or synthesis of views in the primary sources is presented, it must be backed up by secondary or tertiary sources. Brews ohare (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion: Brews, distinguished body of everyone here, what if someone could distill the best of what has been posted herein and use that to alter the language of the rule slightly? That wouldn't exactly constitute a major change in policy, and it would have the happy benefit of doing what you mentioned about articles: deftly applying a scalpel instead of an ICBM. My small opinion is that the discussion is getting a bit off the rails....--Djathinkimacowboy 07:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The only thing that has come up that I can see is that disambiguation pages aren't subject to the normal rules which is something everybody assumes anyway. There is no secondary source talking about the notable topic of disambiguating Waterford in Ireland from Waterford in Australia or Canada or England or the United States or all the other uses. There is no reason to start sticking something in the OR policy about primary and secondary sources because of this. Is there some point about this discussion about primary sources as far as a straightforward ordinary article is concerned? I don't see it. Dmcq (talk) 10:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment I can see a case for an article to be based on a primary source, but backed up by secondary sources. Such an article that is on my "to-do" list is the armoured train ambush during the Boer War in which Winston Churchill was captured. The de facto reference works regarding the ambush are Churchill's own writings (he was in South Africa in 1899 as a journalist). The notablility of the ambush only arose once Churchill became Prime Minister (40 years later). Subsequent writings have been an analysis of what Churchill wrote rather than a rewrite of the event. Martinvl (talk) 16:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

We wouldn't be interested in that unless a secondary source had commented on them and an analysis by a secondary source can certainly show what are the important points in his writing. Everything is based on primary sources at the end, that does not mean that articles are solely based on primary sources because secondary sources have pointed them out and commented on them. Writing a section in the article about something in his book that nobody has shown any interest in though would be definitely something to avoid according to this policy. Dmcq (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Allowing to create (scientific) articles completely based on primary sources would destroy any scientific credibility of WP. We should rely on the established opinions as published in accepted textbooks or review articles in reputable journals, because this is the only way to establish WP:Notability and WP:Undue. Primary sources might probably be used in addition to secondary sources - but only the latter should be used as the foundation of an article --D.H (talk) 11:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

"familiarization article"

Brews, I have a problem with the entire concept of a familiarization article. First, what you seem to be envisioning is a stand-alone annotated index of sources. I don't think an encyclopedia is the right place for that.

But, let us assume that I am in the minority, and others think it is a great idea... you would still need a secondary source to establish notability. Every stand alone article has a specific topic that is unique to that article. In a "familiarization article" as you envision, that topic would be: "Primary sources pertaining to X". OK... So what makes the topic of "Primary sources pertaining to X" notable enough for its own stand-alone article? You would need to establish notability... and to do that, you would need a secondary source that discusses the concept of "primary sources pertaining to topic X", or at best discusses these sources as a distinct group. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Notability requirements could be changed for these articles, or dropped. For example, what is the notability of WP:Formal organization or any information page on WP like WP:Mathematical symbols? Brews ohare (talk) 15:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Content and inclusion guidelines do not apply to any Misplaced Pages-space articles. These are non-examples. --MASEM (t) 16:05, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The only reason WP:Formal organization is not part of the Main space article Misplaced Pages is that many editors invoked WP:Primary to deny its presence there. Brews ohare (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to say it; that specific page is highly exceptional, and impossible to categorize in the overall theme of primary vs secondary sources, because it involves navel gazing, COI issues, and the like. Basically, any page in mainspace about Misplaced Pages is going to be tricky to write about, and why we generally fall back to secondary sources to assure that the article can be written (eg Reliability of Misplaced Pages.) We can't use that article to establish any precedent here. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Masem: I am glad to see that such a thing as an exception is out there. It raises the specter that there may be other exceptions, eh? Brews ohare (talk) 16:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It may be that "navel-gazing" pages are not that uncommon. For example, one could use the description given by any other web site, like Citizendium Knowino in the same way. Also, the description of any corporation's or charity's hierarchy. Brews ohare (talk) 16:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages having an article about Misplaced Pages or any other Wikimedia Foundation sites can be taken as navel gazing without proper secondary sources. Misplaced Pages having an article on any other website like Citizendium or the like is not navel gazing - they are not part of Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia. We still require secondary sources to talk about that website in an encyclopedic manner. --MASEM (t) 17:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

If I understand your view, if one wished to describe the organizational structure of Citizendium and could find no source describing that structure other than CZ's own documentation, then no article could be placed on WP about this structure, and in fact, any outline of this structure as part of another article would have to be removed if challenged because it relied entirely upon a primary source?

That seems extreme. Brews ohare (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The same position would disallow a description of the governmental structure of Mozambique (presently unsourced entirely) or Chad (presently sourced to the BBC, seemingly less authoritative than Chad itself), or the organization of the presidential primary caucus in Nevada. Brews ohare (talk) 17:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

If, using your example, there was no source describing CZ's structure outside of CZ itself, then we would not allow an article on it. That doesn't mean that that structure cannot be talked about in context of the article about CZ, as your other examples do. It is not the case we don't allow primary sources, it is that we simply don't allow articles solely based on primary sources. --MASEM (t) 18:00, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: Surely that is silly? So if I want to write about CZ organization I can draft the article: "Organization of on-line encyclopedias" with a subsection "Citizendium" that is exactly what would be contained in the stand-alone "Organization of Citizendium" and that is fine? And likewise, in an article on Chad I can discuss its governmental structure sourcing the BBC News seven years ago, but I couldn't put the same thing in "Chad (Governmental structure)" sourcing documents from the government of Chad? Nonsense, I'd say. And something that should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brews ohare (talk • contribs)

If you wanted to write about the CZ organization - which is only defined by CZ itself, you would go to the Citizendium (which is notable) and write about it in there; that's the more natural location for that. Chad's government, on the other hand, is covered by secondary sources and can be written about in a separate article. --MASEM (t) 18:47, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: So WP:Formal organization is more naturally located on Misplaced Pages? My thoughts exactly. We may be getting caught up in the examples instead of the principle. The principle (not the practice on WP) is that material that is suitable as a subsection of a larger article should not be disqualified from being split off as a separate article. If its support is OK for the larger article, it is equally OK for the stand-alone. If "Nevada caucuses" can exist in "Caucus" it can exist in "Nevada caucuses". Brews ohare (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

No, because the level of detail and information in WP:Formal organization is not aimed at a general reader, but for an editor of Misplaced Pages - it is necessary navel gazing within Misplaced Pages namespace to allow editors to understand how the work is organized. For the average reader, the organization in general is discussed currently within the Wikiepedia article; no further article is needed. And yes, actually, while material can be included in a sub-section of an article, splitting it off is not appropriate per WP:N and WP:SPINOUT. Only notable topics should be spun out to separate articles. --MASEM (t) 19:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: You are framing the situation differently. Splitting off may be inadvisable for various reasons. I agree that the intended reader of an overall article may have limited interest in a lot of detail that might be appropriate in a stand-alone article on a subtopic. WP:SPINOUT is pretty vague about the appropriate circumstances, and makes no reference to a difference in support requirements. Nothing there is germane to allowing material in a longer article to be sourced to a primary source, but refusing that same information to appear in a stand-alone article simply and solely because its support is a primary source. I understand that arrangement is present practice, but it makes no sense.

Yes, the stand-alone may be inadvisable for many reasons, but if the article falls into the classification of a "familiarization article", primarily relying upon primary sources is not one of them. You also raise the prospect that the stand-alone is not sufficiently notable to become a separate article. Here also, if the stand-alone is of "familiarization article" type, the notability issue should be decided based upon various criteria we have touched upon, and not entirely upon whether or not it relies upon a secondary source. Brews ohare (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I imagine "Chad (Governmental structure)" can be referred to a secondary source. Assuming that were possible, the secondary source would say something like "Chad has a constitution. (See Constitution of Chad)", which could be equally authoritatively directly referenced as a primary source. (Actually, in this example, I don't think Constitution of Chad is a primary source, as that is probably in French.) What is aimed at is removal of the silliness of finding source S that simply quotes primary source P, when source P can be cited directly with equal authority. Brews ohare (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all, we're still not talking about practical "familiarization" articles - these are not navigational in any shape or form. These are articles in mainspace, and need to meet content and inclusion guidelines. So be aware, you've still not identified what exceptions would be needed here.--MASEM (t) 22:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Brews ohare (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Now, let's compare the two cases "the organization of CZ" and "the government of Chad". Barring anything else, as long as we can source these via primary sources that meet WP:V, such could easily be covered in the respective parent articles (CZ and Chad - both are clearly notable topics). The question you're asking is why is there is a issue if these were separate articles.

If we talk about the "government of Chad", that is a clearly notable topic of its own. It is assuredly covered in textbooks within the country and by political science/global government textbooks published elsewhere, at a minimum (I don't have time to do a sources run, but I hope this is an accepted point). Within the article, however, the "best" resource is the primary source - the country's own constitution and laws that describe the organization of the government. So we have a topic that is notable where there do exist secondary sources, but readily sourced to the primary. In such a case, the lead for the article simply needs to establish the notability (and arguable, the notability is so obvious that most people won't flinch at the lack of secondary sources since they are assured it would exist), and the rest of the article could be on primary sources. In the context of this discussion, the resulting article may only include primary sources, but we know that secondary sources exist that talk about the topic "The government of Chad". Note - this is not the issue with the proposal, because this is not the case where only primary sources exist.--MASEM (t) 22:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

So, is it correct to summarize as follows? In a longer article, a primary source may be preferable to a secondary source for some matters (just which could be made very clear if desired) and a spin-off of this material to a stand-alone article is OK using the same primary sources provided (i) notability can be established somehow, or failing that, (ii) secondary sources are known to exist, even if they actually are not used. Brews ohare (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Now, take the case of "the organization of CZ". We know CZ is a notable website, but is it's organizational structure notable? Certainly there's no way I'd take the word of anyone on that, like I would with the government structure of a major country. Let's presume that there are no secondary sources that talk about "the organization of CZ". (about "CZ" yes, but not the organization). This article would then have to be sourced to the primary work, the pages of CZ itself. This is the article that fails the policy as only primary sources exist for the topic; this article thus should not exist as a stand-alone article, but still can be discussed within the body of the "CZ" article.

If it were the case that there was significant coverage by secondary sources about CZ's organization, that makes it a different story: now we can include that secondary sourcing as the lead for the article (and here, unlike the Chad case, it would be expected to see that), and then have the rest of the article using primary sourcing. Mind you, the appropriateness of splitting this article off may be questioned: if both the CZ and the "organization of CZ" articles are short, then it is better to keep them as a single article; splitting off should only be done when the topic is notable and size issues start coming into place.--MASEM (t) 22:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Here we discuss spin-off of material where notability cannot be established, or is debatable. For some reason, the criterion for notability here is taken to be the existence of secondary sources. The type of case considered is where only primary sources are available, and it is pointed out that such a spin-out is not presently admissible. There is no doubt that this is present policy.

What is not discussed at all is the subject of circumstances under which this policy should be relaxed. In particular, there are articles that can be sourced only through primary sources, where these primary sources are the best support imaginable for the topic at hand, and where a secondary source, even if it existed, would simply parrot the primary source. The only valid issue here is whether notability for the article can be established without citing a secondary source to establish the topic is worth talking about.

That is possible in some instances (you have provided a couple of them already). So I'd guess the subject of this conversation should include a discussion of how to establish notability in the absence of secondary sources, and possibly even the topic of just how a secondary source establishes notability when it is available. I'd guess the latter is a grossly misused mechanism in practice. Brews ohare (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

So to stress this point: the issue is between articles where the only sources in the world on the subject are primary, and articles where at the present time only primary sources are included but secondary sources are known to exist. The latter case does not fail OR policy/N guideline (though really those secondary sources should be added to prevent the issue), but the former one does and should be merged/redirected/deleted to a larger topic. Remember: once within the article of a larger topic, a smaller topic can be discussed to appropriate due depth from primary sources without question. --MASEM (t) 22:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

My view of this matter is that the imbedded section achieves notability in the larger article because it is part of a larger discussion or presentation and serves to illustrate some aspect of the main topic. As such, the notability of the section does not apply to the section itself when it is divorced from the larger topic. I believe this is a paraphrase of what you think yourself.

However, I'm not interested here in any kind of subject matter. The material I'm interested in is simple factual description, for instance, the structure of an organization, and not material involving evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis. For such material, primary sources are the most reliable support. The notability of such an article is not established by the significance of its views (it doesn't express any) and so does not require a secondary source to support its views. Its notability could be established by other means, for example, one might claim the structure of an organization was notable because the organization itself is notable. Perhaps, what is needed is a secondary source saying, for example, "IBM is a billion dollar company , with the following structure", or "Citizendium is an on-line encyclopedia designed differently than Misplaced Pages. What follows is an outline of its structure", or "Rabies in dogs occurs and municipalities have regulation regarding this matter, as outlined below." These topic sentences establish context, perhaps, but not a thesis that is the article content. How would that fly? How would you adjust this approach? Brews ohare (talk) 16:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

You are in the right direction that you should establish the notability of the topic at the start of the article with secondary sources (or make sure that you have identified them on the talk page) to meet both WP:OR (that the topic has been covered and thus the rest is not undue) and WP:N (as general inclusion guidance); once established the rest of the article could be all primary sources though I think there may be some caution about going too far overboard on details from primary sources only, but that's not the issue at this point. But we you have to recognize is what topic that article now is about. If I broke out "Government structure of Chad" from "Chad", the topic I have to show notability is "Government structure of Chad". Similarly, breaking out "Organization of Citizendium" from "Citizendium", I have to show that "Organization of Citizendium" is a notable topic, even knowing that "Citizendium" itself is notable already. If you can't show that, you shouldn't break out the article , but discussion from primary sources is still fine in the original parent article. --MASEM (t) 16:36, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: I've raised the point as yet not addressed in detail of just how to establish notability. Of course, if you are trying to establish a thesis (an evaluation or interpretation or whatnot) a secondary source will provide support that the thesis is of sufficient note to have received some attention. But what are the other ways to establish notability? You suggested that something like "District attorney" was a notable topic because it was part of the court system or system of justice, and that is in itself notable. Would it suffice for an article like "State regulations regarding district attorneys" to simply have a secondary reference noting what the term "district attorney" means, and then proceed with description based upon primary sources? How could one formulate some suitable approach to deal with such things in general, apart from this particular example? Brews ohare (talk) 02:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that would not be good enough. You're basically saying that any sub-topic of a larger topic can be given an article and talked about in depth even if the sub-topic is non-notable because the larger topic is notable. That's basically the idea of inherited notability, and that is not appropriate on WP. --MASEM (t) 12:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

No, the question I am raising is that of how to establish notability without invoking a secondary source. You noted earlier that you thought articles that could be classified a "familiarization articles" do exist, and are acceptable. Would you say they are exempt from notability requirements, or is their notability determined without the use of secondary sources? Brews ohare (talk) 13:59, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no way to establish notability without significant coverage by secondary sources, otherwise we are putting undue weight and bias on primary sources. Now, yes, navigational articles like disambiguation pages or outline do not need to show notability. What that problem is is that you're using this term "familiarization article" and applying it to things that are definitely not navigational pages (eg the suggestion of a page about "State requirements for DAs"). As I've asked you before, if you provide examples (existing ones at best) that you think are "familiarization articles", we call tell you if they would have to qualify for notability or not. --MASEM (t) 14:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: So to state your position in my own words: There is no way to establish notability other than using a secondary source. However, some acceptable articles do not need to be notable, and the guidelines to identify these exceptions are sufficiently obscure or subtle that no formal policy can be written to identify them. Rather, in case an article is challenged as not exempt, the matter should be referred for adjudication to Masem, who will make the determination as to whether an exception is warranted. Brews ohare (talk) 15:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

This is well-established practice, and takes no guesswork as to what is exempted. Navigational articles like disamb pages or outlines are exempt from generally all other content and inclusion guidelines for articles, because they are strictly that, navigation aids. Any articles outside that are assumed to be normal encyclopedic articles and thus must mean all content and inclusion guidelines need to be met. The problem is that you see to want to push normal content articles as a "familiarization" article to make them exempt from content and inclusion guidelines, which is against current policy. --MASEM (t) 15:06, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that is not my intention. I guess the closest that present guidelines come to this matter is Notability: Lists. That guideline section already admits to confusion on this matter. It makes the recommendation: "Editors are still urged to demonstrate list notability via the grouping itself before creating stand-alone lists"; which is completely unintelligible to me.

As you may recollect, I am not focused here on "normal content" but upon content that is purely descriptive, contains no evaluation, interpretation, or opinion, and is based primarily upon primary sources. Of course, a navigation page like Outline of chemistry is in this category, and kind of resembles a knol collection. That is, a guidance page governing material internal to WP, which is useful to a reader searching for what there is on WP about the topic. To a degree it is a very restricted pre-programmed Google search like this. So I raise this question: why wouldn't one assume that such pages are useful also for outside information sources? Brews ohare (talk) 15:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Because basically, even if the information is fully sourceable to primary and thus verified, if no one else has taken note of it, it is undue weight for us to cover it in depth on Misplaced Pages. We cannot create an importance for a topic if there is no importance given to it in sources. --MASEM (t) 16:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possible candidate for a "familiarization" article is United States Attorney. It does have a few secondary sources, but it appears to be debatable whether any of these establish notability, and it raises the issue of whether it is primarily based upon secondary sources: it doesn't look that way. Yet, I'd say the article has a purpose and should be on WP. Brews ohare (talk) 15:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not what most people would consider a navigational article. "United States Attorney" is a notable topic since they're a critical part of the national court system, and clearly backed by secondary sources that establish its notability. --MASEM (t) 16:05, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The criterion "they're a critical part of the national court system" as a basis for notability is an example of a basis different than requiring a secondary source. It is the major reason for considering this article notable, and would suffice by itself. Most of the secondary sources in this article refer to some particular minor point. So this article seems to fit the bill as an article denied existence by WP:Notability WP:V and WP:Primary that should be on WP nonetheless. It is not primarily based upon secondary sources.

Maybe you don't like the name "familiarization article" (I don't either) but "a rose by any other name..." Brews ohare (talk) 16:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not a navigation, familiarization or whatever other name you want to give to call these articles "special". Unites States Attorney is a normal, everyday mainspace article that shows its notability through secondary sources. Some sources are primary, which are fine, but the topic is notable to secondary ones. So this is still a bad example to start from. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem: It is suitable in the sense of being an article whose "notability" is independent of the presence of secondary sources. That shows that notability can be established in some cases without secondary sources, perhaps on a case-by-case basis?

Are you suggesting that this "bad example" indicates that no category like "familiarization article" is needed? Brews ohare (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying there's no such thing as a "familiarization article". Just that United States Attorney is not the type of article that would be considered as such. It is a notable topic (you have to consider what full range of sources exist, not just those that are presently listed in the article), and not used for navigation. Just so you know what I consider as such, Outline of chemistry is one example of a navigational, or familiarizational article. --MASEM (t) 16:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

There appears to be many articles in the area of officialdom that need some attention: District attorney, Prosecutor, Crown attorney... and may end up being familiarization pages. Brews ohare (talk) 16:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I suppose they could end up the way you envision... the question is: should they end up that way? I would say No, they should not. And if they did end up as you envision, I strongly suspect people would object and re-write them back into normal articles (hopefully citing reliable secondary sources).

I think you need to answer a further question here... WHY would we want to have "familiarization articles"... what would be their purpose? Blueboar (talk) 17:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, an article evolves over time, and one might hope that an article based upon primary sources might become a regular article, for example, if a book happens to be written one day that covers the topic. In the meantime, the article can sit in a different category. At the moment, if any challenge is made to an article based primarily (whatever that is taken to mean) upon primary sources, it must be removed. That means topics like the structure of organizations that have no secondary coverage cannot be written. Of course, there are such articles on WP that escaped challenge, but if there is any opposition (such as arose in trying to include WP:Formal organization in the article Misplaced Pages) the article is denied to Main space. Brews ohare (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It is clear that good reasons for rejecting an article should not be ignored, but rejection of a "familiarization article", defined as defined above, would not happen simply and solely because its sources are primary. Brews ohare (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Brews, the place to discuss the "structure of an organization" is within the article on the organization itself. The structure of the organization is very unlikely to be considered a notable topic on its own (and in the rare cases where it might be, due to some unique aspect of that structure, we would determine its notabiliy by having secondary sources discuss that structure).

This actually gets us back on track as far as the OR policy goes... I would absolutely agree that if we were writing a section on the structure of an organization (in larger article on the organization itself), it would be fine to base that section primarily on an a Primary source... after all, the most reliable (ie best) source possible for the information is highly likely to be a primary internal document from that organization. We would, of course, have to be very careful not to slip into analysis or draw any conclusions... but as long as what we are writing is purely descriptive, a primary source is fine. But... we are talking about a section. The article on the organization, as a whole, would still need to be mostly based on secondary sources. Blueboar (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Blueboar: Do you think the present policy as written is satisfactory regarding OKing primary sources for sections of articles? I am doubtful. Brews ohare (talk) 02:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the present policy is OK as far as permitting the use of primary sources (it explicitly says you are allowed to use primary sources, but cautions that there are limitations. It does a good job of explaining when it is not appropriate to cite primary sources (statements of analysis, interpretation, conclusions, etc.), but I have long thought it could do a better job of explaining: 1) when it is appropriate to cite primary sources, and 2) how to do so in those situations. Blueboar (talk) 02:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Blueboar: What is your take on the list of articles on WP provided here? How is notability established for these separate articles? It seems probable that the way to achieve notability is largely established by forming a "project" like WikiProject Alaska that includes the document. Unfortunately U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky hasn't evolved such a group as yet. Brews ohare (talk) 15:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I opened a thread on Talk:Notability where you may prefer to take up this matter. Brews ohare (talk) 16:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Based on what ground the statement "XXX is a term" can be made in WP articles?

From time to time, I encounter the WP articles that start with the statements of that type:

"XXX YYY is a term used for XXX by YYY." (The most recent example can be found there: Soviet occupations is a term used for military occupations by the Soviet Union...).

As a rule, a source used for such a statement contains just a combination of XXX (as a subject) and YYY (as a predicate), and contains no definition of such new term. For instance, the sources 1-3 from the above example contained no definition of "Soviet occupation" as some separate term used for for description of some separate phenomenon. They just tell about occupation by the Soviet Union. In my opinion, taking into account that I have been a witness of numerous attempts to create new "terms" using the same approach, it would be useful to describe some of them as an example of WP:OR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... this could be OR. However, I think it is an OR that could probably be fixed by adding attribution. Change the sentence to: Soviet occupations is a term used by historians to describe various military occupations by the Soviet Union..." (followed by citations showing historians using the term to describe those occupations) and it would not be OR. Blueboar (talk) 03:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

In the case at hand, and noting ArbCom decisions and dicta thereon, the lede is proper as is. A plenitude of sources are given in the articles, and thus nitpicking over grammar is non-utile. I suggest you read the ArbCom discussions on all of this "stuff." Collect (talk) 14:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand what concrete ArbCom decision do you mean (maybe you provide us with the link?), however, none of the sources given in the article define the term "Soviet occupation", which is supposed to be a specific type of occupation to deserve a separate term.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have come across people making up terms and they are obviously OR but others are not. In the case of soviet occupation it just sounds like clumsy language and unnecessary. We are allowed to use descriptive names for article titles if there is a clear topic and no agreed name or term. Dmcq (talk) 14:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

We are definitely allowed to use descriptive names, however, we are not allowed to pretend they represent some separate terms. In connection to that, I propose to describe the difference between descriptive names and the terms. Let me explain that using the following (totally imaginary) example. Consider two statements:

1. "Medieval negativism is a term used by historian to describe the mainstream philosophical discourse in Middle Age Europe."
2. "During Middle Ages, the European philosophical thought was dominated by negativism."

(Again, the example is totally artificial, so, please, ignore the factual side of the sentences #1-2). Depending on what the source 1 says, the statement 1 may be allowed or not. If the source contains an explicit definition of "Medieval negativism" as a term, the statement 1 is acceptable. However, if it just contains "medieval" (a subject) and "negativism" (a predicate), and does not define the term, the statement 1 fails WP:NOR. Since I have been a witness of several attempts to introduce such new "terms", the above situation is not unique, so we probably need to explain the difference between the terms and the descriptive names either on the policy or guidelines page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Paul, your basic interpretation of how this policy works is accurate... the determination as to whether a specific statement is OR or not can indeed depend on the exact language used in the cited sources. If historians actually use a specific term to describe something, then it is not OR to say so. If they don't actually use the term, then it would be OR to say that they do.

However, I don't think we need to change the policy to resolve your concern. The policy already requires that sources "directly support" what is said in an article. There is no need to explain this provision in terms of every instance where it might apply. Doing so is what we call "instruction creep". Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That said... I have looked through both the edit history of the Soviet occupation article and your personal edit history... I suspect that your real concern here is WP:NPOV rather than WP:OR If so, I suggest you address that issue directly. As it is, there is an appearance (which may or may not be accurate) that you are trying to wikilawyer about OR in order to "win" a NPOV dispute. If I am misreading things, I apologize... but that is how it appears to an outsider. Blueboar (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

By writing that my primary concern is NPOV you were right. By writing that I am trying to wikilawyering to win some dispute you were wrong. I simply found some typical example of creation of new "terms", and I think we need to clarify the policy to make such violations of NOR impossible.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

With few exceptions, "XXX is a term" is usually just an example of weak writing style, not a policy violation.

Importantly, the lead is supposed to summarize the article, not provide dictionary definitions. So the best approach in such situations (using Blueboar's example) is usually something like

Medieval negativism was the mainstream philosophical discourse in Middle Age Europe, which was characterized by... WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct. That is definitely better. However, my argument is that someone may argue that the difference between ##1 and 2 (or your test) is just stylistic one, whereas the difference is more profound: the # 1 is a violation of NOR, and that should be explained clearly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: My two cents!- OR is a rule generally employed very skillfully. The object here seems simple: if a citation can be found that says 'X is known for' or 'X was defined by' (which gives us a 'term' applying to 'X'), I don't see that as OR. The Medieval example is simply too abstract and niggling for the general purpose of the query. I.e., my understanding is that Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. When you speak of 'terms', aren't we trespassing on the dictionary's field? So, what I say is if a citation is found that is clear enough and not a matter of definitions or semantics that lay outside Misplaced Pages's scope, it is acceptable; otherwise it is OR.--Djathinkimacowboy 07:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not propose to consider a situation when such a citation is found. I focus on the opposite case: when editors, based on handful books that use some subject and predicate together, create a new "term". In my opinion, that should be explicitly prohibited: no sourced definition - no term.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

What this seems to come down to is: While we are allowed to invent our own phrasings and terminology when creating a descriptive title (with the caveat that if there are existing, commonly used phrasings and terminology for the topic, we should use those instead)... it is not always appropriate to describe our invented phrasings and terminology as being "a term" in the text of the article. ie - We should not use the word "term" unless a source uses the exact phrasing/terminology as a term.

I would say this is a very narrow and nit-picking interpretation of WP:OR (bordering on being Wikilawyerish)... but I have to agree that it is OR. We require that sources directly support the text. In the situations Paul is describing they do not (they indirectly support the text). The solution is not to prohibit the phrasing/terminology... the solution is to re-write the opening sentence to avoid using the word "term". Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree it seems to be more of a case of clumsy language when some editors attempt to apply MOS:BOLDTITLE, and the solution is as you suggest and easily applied. --Nug (talk) 15:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Educating our editors

Since we seem to be having this problem again, perhaps it's time to insert these sentences into each of the three "definitions" at PSTS:

A primary source can be either independent or non-independent. A primary source can be either self-published or non-self-published.

A secondary source can be either independent or non-independent. A secondary source can be either self-published or non-self-published.

A tertiary source can be either independent or non-independent. A tertiary source can be either self-published or non-self-published.

What do you think? Would this help editors figure out that WP:Secondary does not mean independent or that primary does not mean self-published? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Independent doesn't have much to do with OR policy, it is more about reliable sources or verifiability. Dmcq (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup, but you'd never know that from all the people who keep using the words secondary and independent as if they were merely alternate spellings for the same concept. The whole point of these sentences is to help people discover that independence (and self-publication) doesn't have much to do with OR policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, independent vs non-independent of self-published or non-self-published is much less important than peer-reviewed vs non-peer-reviewed. In addition, with regard to independence, the very term is dubious: independence from whom? Are state-sponsored sources deemed dependent? Are privately owned mass media independent? That is a matter of judgement, and strongly depends on a context. For example, is state sponsored BBC a dependent or independent source?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

In the context of this page, I don't actually care how independence is defined. It's not relevant to this policy. All I really want here is for people to stop typing p-r-i-m-a-r-y when they ought to be typing words like "not independent" or "self-pubished". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying terminology in a policy/guideline where some of the wrongly-interchanged terms are germane to the policy is, I think, appropriate and good to cover in the policy. North8000 (talk) 21:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably should be made clear that primary/secondary/tertiary sit along a different axis as first-party and third-party (which is different from self-pub/non-self-pub too.) --MASEM (t) 23:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, the essay you've mentioned on Independent sources repeats a few points. I just wish to compare two statements here; this might lead to a better understanding:

• Our NOR policy mentions: Secondary sources are second-hand accounts, generally at least one step removed from an event.
• The essay mentions An independent source is a source that has no significant connection to the subject and therefore describes it from a disinterested perspective.

I just feel that even the essay you mention (with this line as a leading example) replicates to some extent what is already mentioned. What do you exactly mean by independent which is clearly different from what is mentioned in secondary? Wifione 05:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Ah! This is a fascinating question. What you are actually revealing here is a facet of OR. In the consideration of sources, unless a reference's complete origin can be ascertained/traced, your language is too confusing for the average editor to take its meaning. Verifiability seems to be the guideline that has worked very well thus far. Many editors are simply happy being able to verify that a reference actually exists. What I see being proposed here is some new level of scrutiny of references that is inappropriate to Misplaced Pages.--Djathinkimacowboy 07:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Clarification of what constitutes a primary or secondary source

The description of primary and secondary sources is not as clear as it might be on this policy page. At the moment, the policy says under Secondary sources:

"For example, a review article that analyzes research papers in a field is a secondary source for the research."

That is very clear. What is less clear is whether this statement implies that the research papers themselves are primary sources. A footnote is intended to clarify this matter:

"The Ithaca College Library compares research articles to review articles. Be aware that either type of article can be both a primary and secondary source, although research articles tend to be more useful as primary sources and review articles as secondary sources."

I find that this footnote serves only to muddy the waters. It can only lead to debate over whether a particular journal article falls under multiple categories and which category applies in what instance. I'd suggest it be revised to say the following:

"Research articles are considered primary sources and review articles as secondary sources."

That is crystal clear, and does not leave the door ajar.

The reason journal articles presently are allowed as secondary sources is most probably related to journals being peer reviewed. That review process may be adequate for some technical journals like Physical Review, but even there articles may not reflect a broad consensus of the technical community. In fact, they report original research that by definition may not be conventional in its approach. Unless WP wishes to go into the unlikely business of ranking journals, the simplest policy is to regard them all as primary sources.

Another footnote in WP:NOR is:

"Duke University Libraries offers this definition: "A primary source is a first-hand account of an event. Primary sources may include newspaper articles, letters, diaries, interviews, laws, reports of government commissions, and many other types of documents."

Placing this information in a footnote in this manner suggests that this statement is to inform judgment, and is not an integral part of the WP policy on this matter. In the interest of clarity and to ensure objectivity of article content, I'd suggest that wording of this sort be included explicitly in WP:NOR, for instance, with the statement:

"Newspaper articles, letters, diaries, interviews, laws, reports of government commissions, journal articles, and many other types of documents are considered by WP to be primary sources."

Brews ohare (talk) 18:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

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