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Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Unblocking former editors

In the prior thread ("Dear Uncle Jimbo"), the question was asked, "Why can't the community raise the dead?" in reference to restoring a blocked user. The reasoning appears to be that, if an editor was blocked by a small group of users, then that decision "cannot override" a wider group of users who want the editor to be unblocked. In practice, we have been able to unblock editors by writing support for them during the wp:UNBLOCK appeals on their user-talk pages. There was no need to poll "100 users" to get a wider consensus. However, the blocking of those editors was based on limited circumstances, rather than patterns of extreme hostility. In these cases, several editors had been blocked in connection with the temporary conviction of Amanda Knox (in Perugia, Italy, later acquitted on 3 October 2011). To facilitate the unblocking, some active users merely wrote support on each editor's user-talk page to recommend unblocking those editors. Again, those editors had not been totally wild before being blocked. There had been a long series of other editors who were pushing "block-Amanda-supporters", where if a new user wanted to add footnoted text that there was no reliable evidence against Amanda Knox in the criminal trial, then other editors tended to hound those people as being an WP:SPA. They even tried to accuse me of being "an WP:SPA" but my long and varied edit-history quickly refuted those false allegations, so then I was falsely hounded as being "the ringleader" of the new editors (some with formal training in criminal justice), because I spent time writing to them about nuances of Misplaced Pages policies, which was seen as improperly "coaching" them. I was blocked repeatedly, and when I began the BLP article "Amanda Knox", and wrote to 4 editors (2 who wanted the new article, one neutral, and 1 opposed), then that was condemned as "wp:Votestacking" and I was topic-banned for 3 solid months. I tried and tried to explain to people that all the interest in Amanda Knox was due to monthly legal reports or family interviews in U.S. national news; however, many people still imagined a nefarious "advocacy group" (not just millions of people who watch U.S. TV news) was trying to take control of Misplaced Pages and "force" the article to contain sourced text. Anyway, Jimbo finally kept advising people to allow balance in the article. So, by the time Amanda Knox was acquitted of the murder charges, and October pageviews skyrocketed over 2.4 million, then the article even had several photos (not quickly deleted), although the top photo had been sent for wp:FfD deletion twice, with the second attempt lasting not the typical 7-day discussion, but dragging on for 3 weeks before being kept in the article. Anyway, many of the formerly blocked users had been unblocked, after other editors wrote support for them on their user-talk pages. I am not sure if the unblocking admins had been aware of the full hysteria behind blocking so many of those users, or to what extent the written support played in assuring admins that those users were not a potential risk to Misplaced Pages. Also, some of the editors remained blocked because there were so many of them. -Wikid77 17:13, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

This is, indeed, a very interesting case study. Wikid77's view on it is, naturally, from one side of the issue and so I suspect that many good people who took a different view would disagree with aspects of it. But I think we can get consensus around a few things in this case: some of the blockings were valid, the blockings were not all valid, the article was at one point highly biased due to the blockings taking out one side fo the debate, and that the article today, despite all that, is much better than it used to be. How to figure out improvements in process that lower the number of inappropriate blocks, and increase the number of appropriate blocks, is tricky business!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

There is a deeper issue here, though. We are loosing major established editors through a number of mechanisms, death, sadly being more significant than maybe it was five years ago, but also through hounding, apparently legitimate blocks and bans and just plain burned-out-ness. We might name recently, as well as March's two deaths, Fastily on a break, Rlevese blocked, Beta banned, Merovingian retired, Jack Merridew gone and many many more illustrious names. We have also had a large number of established editors come very close to leaving the project one way or another. It seems to me there are a number of mechanisms at work here, and the awkward squad is one of them that it would be good to do something about, but very hard to identify. The other two aspects that would not be such a problem IRL are failure to understand that people have different strengths and weaknesses, and that we should play to the strengths (I think here particularly of those who's technical skills outstrip their community relations skills), and those who have minor peccadilloes but make massive contributions (one might imagine a community group expelling the person who does all the maintenance work to the village hall, because he will dip his digestive in his tea). Rich Farmbrough, 21:35, 21 March 2012 (UTC).

Please please please accept Bitcoins in the next donation drive

Hi Jimbo,

Pretty please could you consider accepting bitcoins in the next wiki donation drive - they're right up your street. I urge you to have a go with them if you haven't already to see what I mean. They are the future. 217.28.6.37 (talk) 18:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not the decision maker on such things, but I think we should only do so if it makes financial sense, which it most likely doesn't. As I understand it, and contrary to what many people intuit, it turns out that offering too many payment options actually decreases total revenue, presumably by adding complexity and surprise to the checkout process. I suppose we could accept Bitcoins and publicize it in the bitcoin community (but not add it to the general donation page where it would confuse people) but in that case, it's unclear that the level of donations would be sufficient to overcome the engineering and other administrative costs of doing so. But, really, I'm not involved with this decision at all, I'm just explaining why I think you'll have a bit of an uphill battle persuaded the Foundation to do this!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could offer them instead of paypal then - it would certainly be interesting to see what effect that had on basically the entire internet. I'm not really serious about that of course - but it would cut your transaction costs and I expect most of your donors would be perfectly capable of working them.

In any case, thanks for your input. 217.28.6.37 (talk) 19:38, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Bit-Pay.com can have you accepting bitcoin for donations in a matter of minutes…and if you're a 501c3, there are no fees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.90.78 (talk) 03:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

An easy way to accept Bitcoins with minimal user distraction is to simply display on the Wikimedia "Other Ways to Give" page: "Our Bitcoin address: xxxx" and nothing more, taking the position that it's not Wikimedia's job to explain what Bitcoin is. No software is needed to accept Bitcoins. You can generate an offline address (such as with the in-browser javascript-based generator from Bitaddress.org, which can be downloaded and run offline for maximum security). The generator provides a new random Bitcoin address and its corresponding "private key". Print it, stick it in a vault, then publish the address. Donations accumulate offline, your staff can monitor the total at several websites, and if they become significant, you'll know whether it's worth spending the effort to collect the funds, which of course requires your printed key. Casascius♠ (talk) 02:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Recruiting Retirees and Invalids

...about this thread topic. I sent it a few days ago with a copy to the Philleppe at the Foundation. Also, why is your page archiving so quickly? Some good conversations are ended before they can get up a head of steam. The naysayers and anti-melodramaticists get their shots in and then, before you can say, "Bobs 'yer uncle", the thread is gone. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Overly-quick archiving by ClueBot III to /Archive_100

Again, some talk-page threads, here, have been archived within hours of the last reply, by ClueBot_III into /Archive_100. Fortunately, that archive page is still small, so the final replies can be read easily on that page:

• See: /Archive_100 - archive of threads, including replies within recent hours.

The archive parameter, in User_talk:Jimbo_Wales, was set to "24" which User:ClueBot_III states as being 24 hours, but the auto-archiving has been removing threads within just a few hours of the last reply's timestamp (not after 24 hours). I had thought this time-span problem would be fixed by now (by a Bot person), but perhaps someone else could check for the problem. I am thinking a work-around would be to set the talk-page's archive parameter to "48" which might then act to auto-archive after "48-24" hours (?) since last reply in a thread. Gotta run. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I see the problem. As I set up ClueBot III for Jimbo, he likes to keep at least 2 threads on the page when the bot archives. As I set up ClubBot III to replace MiszaBot III instead of using the "minkeepthreads" parameter, I used accidentally used the "maxkeepthreads" parameter which was set to 2, which is causing ClueBot III to forcibly archive younger pages. I fixed it now and this should no longer be an issue.—cyberpower _Offline 00:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks. I like to keep it pretty speedy because otherwise the page gets unmanageable. The downside has always been that sometimes due to being busy, I don't get to something in a timely fashion, it gets archives, and someone's feeling gets hurt. But I think fast archiving is still the right way to go.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

With an active page such as yours, I'm amazed you haven't gone crazy yet with the constant notifications.—cyberpower _Offline 01:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica article about itself

The Encyclopædia Britannica has an article about itself.

• Encyclopaedia Britannica (English language reference work) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

—Wavelength (talk) 00:38, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica and Misplaced Pages

Misplaced Pages has this page about errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica.

• Misplaced Pages:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Misplaced Pages

—Wavelength (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom

Dear Jimbo, I refer to this. A few pertinent points. (1) As I demonstrated in my statement there, there was never any justification for topic banning Cla68 in the first place. He was a model editor in the climate change area - probably the best editor who ever dared stick his neck out in that toxic area. If he was banned, I should be banned a hundred times. William Connolley's supporters came up with pseudo evidence in revenge for Cla68's involvement in his banning. ArbCom was too lazy to read all the masses of evidence given, so they arbitrarily banned everyone. (2) The reasons the arbitrators give for refusing to relax Cla68's ban now apply far more to William Connolley, who they unbanned. As you would know, Connolley's blog is largely dedicated to attacking people he disagrees with - including other Wikipedians such as me. (3) In Connolley's ban appeal he engaged in battlefield conduct during the ban appeal itself (which was amusing). He displayed contempt for ArbCom, and implied that there was no justification for his ban in the first place, and dismissed the comments of people like me with personal attacks. As a result, the Arbitrators unanimously agreed to lift the ban. (4) Compare this with the lame excuse given by William Connolley's supporters for why Cla68 should remain banned and the fact that Arbitrators in Cla68's case feel these lame reasons are justification for leaving the ban in place for another six months.

I have always maintained that this banning of 15 editors randomly was hugely damaging to Misplaced Pages's credibility. In any case, in view of this huge double standard applied now, it is clear that ArbCom is not neutral. If ArbCom is not neutral, why is this lumbering committee not folded immediately and replaced with a merit-based committee where arbitrators are appointed by yourself or the Misplaced Pages Foundation and given clear rules to follow? Alex Harvey (talk) 01:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

(I should add that it amazes me that someone like Cla68 wastes his time on this project given this sort of nonsense.) Alex Harvey (talk) 01:26, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Is this a climate change/CO2 related dispute? I think you need this video. 71.215.75.236 (talk) 05:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi anoymous IP address. No, it is about a blatant and hypocritical double standard at the highest levels of Misplaced Pages. It is about Misplaced Pages claiming to be about "neutrality" while at the same time clearly being about the opposite. I am arranging for wider visibility to be brought to this issue since Misplaced Pages can't manage itself. And your little video, while amusing, has nothing whatever to do with the earth's greenhouse effect or the debate about climate change. Go ask William Connolley if you don't believe me. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Interesting AFD

I nominated this for deletion a while ago and there have been no comments, I would like for there to be a consensus at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Crissi Cochrane. Thank you, Albacore (talk) 04:00, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Replag ridiculously high.

I'm not sure if your able to comment on this but could you possibly give me a clue why the replication process of the Wikimedia databases is lagging 38 hours behind? Replag is 1 Day 14 Hours. That is exteremely high and it's been like this for almost 12 hours.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 11:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this these days. Can you point me to where I can see these numbers and educate me about what they mean? I'm happy to pass along concerns to the tech staff, but it'd probably be faster and more effective if others did so!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:03, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

See this thread. Goodvac (talk) 17:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Replag is up to 1 Day 20 Hours. I believe replication came to a stand still and now the lag is piling on. It's hindering toolserver now and bots may get affected from this as well.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 17:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Replag is automatically reported in the toolserver channel, toolserver admins, which are the guys that you should talk to, are surely aware of the issue, prolly recorded on jira somewhere but I haven't checked. Snowolf 20:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Did you know...

... that some Misplaced Pages contributors consider a DYK about an actress murdered (allegedly by her brother) three weeks ago, who's body parts are still being recovered from a canal to be suitable main page material - next to a DYK on 'national masturbation day'? See Talk:Gemma McCluskie#Far, far too soon for this article to have a hook in 'Did you know' and Wikipedia_talk:Did you know#Gemma McCluskie. Given that this 'contribution seems to have been motivated by Misplaced Pages:WikiCup (see Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/History/2012/Submissions/Miyagawa), I personally think that we could well do without the cup, DYK or both. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

There was an ANI thread on this a few hours ago and consensus was that it was inappropriate at this time.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 17:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Why are you forum shopping? If you have a problem with the Cup, go bring it up there. Otherwise, we all make mistakes, and going on a witch-hunt to destroy DYK, the Cup, Miyagawa, and everyone else is not exactly helpful. Ed  18:02, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I have no strong views on 'Forum shopping' in general, but I ask people not to complain about it here on my talk page. I like this to remain an informal and kind place for discussion of deeper philosophical questions, so it isn't really a "forum" in the usual sense. If we treated it as a forum in that sense, people would be discouraged from bringing things to my attention, and even though I'm disinclined to actually take action in virtually all particular cases, it is important that I remain informed, particularly about matters of philosophy. The general questions I see here are: what are the appropriate standards of good taste and decorum for DYK hooks, and (one that I am particularly interested in) - is our current practice of tying DYK exclusively to new articles a good idea? (I think it is not.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't just mean this page – he's been around to a few others too, including the Cup page, where he didn't raise the issue of getting rid of the Cup. No disrespect intended to this page. :-) I do think, though, that the DYK discussion would be advanced if you posted there rather than here. Ed  20:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The issue here is that Andy went to ANI demanding topic bans and got nowhere. He went to WT:DYK demanding bans, and got nowhere. He then went to WT:CUP demanding disqualifications and got nowhere. It was agreed quickly at ANI that it was a bad hook and it was pulled. A few people at DYK are pondering ways to improve the process. Andy, meanwhile, seems disinterested in joining that discussion, preferring to make LOUD NOISES all over the place. It's starting to get disruptive, frankly. Resolute 20:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

If you think I'm being disruptive, then take it to AN/I. But don't you think that the 'disruption' might be more down to those responsible for the DYK in the first place? In any case, the discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know#Gemma McCluskie are ongoing. As for the cup, I am still waiting to see what response is given. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't think the "disruption" was at DYK. It was decided that a bad hook was promoted, the bad hook was removed, and people are now pondering how to prevent a similar situation in the future. The only part of this that bothers me is your apparent need to be vindictive. I fail to see what you actually hope to accomplish, because improving Misplaced Pages clearly isn't a part of it. Resolute 22:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

So much for WP:AGF... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Key word being assume. I AGFed the first time you called for some sort of ban over this. You lost the right to that assumption somewhere between the second third and fourth demand on the second third and fourth forum. The question remains, however. What are you hoping to accomplish with your demands? Resolute 23:00, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Resolute, you seem much more concerned with what I've posted in regard to this matter than with the DYK itself - which was on our main page, and visible to the many thousands who will have visited the page. No doubt some will have clicked through to the article, where they will have seen it given as a statement of fact that McCluskie was 'murdered' - which as yet is only an allegation, and per British sub judice rules, one that needs to be given a lot more thought than appears to have been done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is hard to imagine she was accidentally dismembered, but that is beside the point. In seriousness, tell me how one should proceed to prevent a reoccurance: run around everywhere demanding bans and the shuttering of processes, or discussing how to change the process to ensure future hooks are less problematic? Resolute 23:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

A technical point, a case such as this may not result in a prosecution for murder even after such charges have be made. There may be grounds for this case to be manslaughter or accidental death and the body to then be determined as unlawfully disposed. --Fæ (talk) 06:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

As I've already made clear, in my personal opinion the best thing to do would be to get rid of DYK entirely. Failing that, we clearly need to discourage contributors from nominating material purely to accumulate a 'score', and we need to ensure that what goes on our main page is fit to represent what Misplaced Pages stands for, rather than being a collection of factoids chosen for no better reason than that they come from new articles. I must admit, I'm not entirely happy with one of the latest DYK factoids either "... that in 1977 AOA, a trade union linked to the Spanish urban guerilla movement FRAP, was founded" Linked? How? The article in question seems to have been written by a single contributor, and all sources appear to be in Spanish. Should we be making such assertions without clarifying what we mean? And should we be describing FRAP as an "urban guerilla movement" at all? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Getting rid of DYK simply because you don't like it is not an improvement to Misplaced Pages. As to the rest of your comment, correlation does not imply causation. I'm also a WikiCup participant, and I'd be submitting articles for DYK with or without the competition. As, I strongly suspect, would the submitter of this particular entry. Virtually every single post you have made on this topic has been designed to smear something or someone. It appears that you really won't be happy until you've "punished" somebody. Which is sad, because I really fail to see what you hope to accomplish by badgering content contributors who make Misplaced Pages a better place. Resolute 14:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

So you ask me for my opinion, and when I give it, you accuse me of 'smearing' people? Who have I 'smeared'? How? Put up or shut up - at AN/I. We obviously have differing views on what is in the best interests of Misplaced Pages - and judging by the response to the contentious DYK, my viewpoint seems to be the majority one. As Jimbo makes quite clear, he considers it entirely appropriate to raise matters of general concern to the project here, but rather than actually discussing the issue, you have instead accused me of 'forum shopping', of engaging in a 'witch hunt', of 'disruption', and much else besides. Since you clearly aren't here to discuss the topic of this thread, I consider this conversation closed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

To summarize - if you would like to make a difference and put forward ideas for better editorial control of DYK proposals, please add to the discussion here rather than other, less effective, forums or user pages. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 19:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Addressing the question "is our current practice of tying DYK exclusively to new articles a good idea?" I agree, it's not. I'd prefer to see at least some DYKs being drawn from WP:GA's, both new and not-so-new. It would give a needed boost to the valuable GA process. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Starting with an incorrect question is not a good practice though. DYK is not tied exclusively to new articles, articles with a five-fold expansion (text only) are accepted as well. Apart from that, this is indeed not the best place for this discussion and is a nice example of forum-shopping. Fram (talk) 08:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

"articles with a five-fold expansion (text only) are accepted as well". Because? Why five? Why not four? Or seventeen-and-a-half divided by the number of days since the last full moon? This sort of petty bureaucratic rule-mongering is exactly what is wrong with the DYK system in the first place. It isn't a show-piece for new Misplaced Pages articles, it is a convoluted exercise in hoop-jumping, engaged in as an online multi-player game. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

• Your point of view. I look at a quality collection such as DYK Germany and have a different perception. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

OK. I'd prefer to see at least some GAs occupying the space currently monopolised by new or recently-expanded articles. What's so special about new or recently-expanded articles? Surely we should be encouraging editors to improve articles, and showcasing good articles. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

A mixture of quality new articles and recently passed Good articles should really be standard procedure I think. Gerda's right that we do have a great deal of good quality DYKs but we also get a few bad eggs which we all seem to remember and makes a lot of us think of DYK badly. I'm considering proposing something to include new GAs to appear in DYK. Can I count on the support of anybody here?♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:43, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Why are you looking for support for DYK reform on Jimbo's user talk page rather than here? --Fæ (talk) 09:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it needs major reform, but I do think we should extend what is featured beyond new articles and try to improve the standards and have some sense about certain topics.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to again repeat my request that people not be discouraged from posting here in good faith about whatever they think might be worthy of a good philosophical discussion. This page is not part of any actual process, so coming here is not a subversion of any actual process. This is something different - a place for people to come together and discuss in a civil environment without all the politicking that can happen. We should be here for discussing big picture ideas with a view towards gathering thoughtful views from a diverse community, in the hopes of finding interesting solutions that can then be proposed in the appropriate venue. A sandbox for policy deliberations, you might say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

ARIN CEO asks us to go to IPv6

I cannot verify the authenticity of it, but apparently ARIN CEO John Curran has asked us to hasten the move to IPv6 to the point that the WMF can participate in World IPv6 Launch. It would be sad if the WMF could not take the leap with everyone else, but I realize that there are major outstanding issues that need to be resolved. Nevertheless, it seems that contact by Curran himself is a big motivator.Jasper Deng (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

• IP Address: 12.174.51.2
• ISP: AT&T Services
• Organization: INTERCONTINENTAL HOTELS GROUP
• Region: Austin (US)

  —cyberpower _Offline 01:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Who says he couldn't have been traveling? The topic, whether the message is real or not, is still a valid, pressing one for the WMF.Jasper Deng (talk) 01:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm simply giving information to start the discussion with. I'm not trying to prove anything. I would suggest contacting ARIN's CEO by e-Mail or phone to verify that he indeed did write that.—cyberpower _Offline 01:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
      • This surely will make a Signpost headline.Jasper Deng (talk) 01:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

SxSW just wrapped up this past weekend - lots of tech types were there, or so I understand. Then again, you'd think he'd use a more official channel. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 02:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, we aren't too transparent about how to contact the WMF either...Jasper Deng (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I've met him before, and I see no reason to doubt this request is genuine. Perhaps someone can help him find the right people to talk with!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

However, with it being a hotel IP, I don't believe there's really anything the community can do; the WMF has to do something, I think.Jasper Deng (talk) 04:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

There is a problem with quickly switching over to IPv6. Majority of systems out there are old style an run off of IPv4. Anything earlier than Windows vista will not be able to connect to IPv6. By switching over to IPv6, we may be kicking off millions of experienced editors including me.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 10:06, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Um, my Windows XP is IPv6 ready (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not so by default, and I can't expect all users to know the command.Jasper Deng (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's expected that the IPv4 address's will be running out by the end of 2012. To be fair, we're in March. Testing and stuff could go underway, but I don't think there is a major rush to have it completed. I just did a quick search and there are also ways to communicate with IPv6 websites from an IPv4 address through a proxy, so it may not mean getting an upgrade in hardware straight away, however, I would assume, it will eventually be phased out entirely. Mrlittleirish 11:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it possible to support connections from both IP versions? If WMF implemented support forth both, then they wouldn't force old users to have have to upgrade to new hardware to continue editing Misplaced Pages.—cyberpower _{Limited Access} 11:39, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is any reason why we shouldn't seamlessly support both. I have been told (but only randomly by random people) that we don't yet do IPV6 at all. This is not about kicking people off who use old hardware/software or making them use a proxy or anything - that would be very very wrong for us to do. This is about making sure that we are proactive about assisting with the move into the future. I personally have no real idea of the status of that right now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have some on-wiki issues too. We just talk to you as you're the head of the WMF; unfortunately we don't know how to reach the WMF network admins.

With that said, though, I think that we can resolve these in time if gadget and Toolserver developers hurry up.Jasper Deng (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Most things are working although there are a zillion little toolserver scripts and bots which don't know about ipv6 yet and may need to be upgraded. Also, there are still some bugs. In general, reading from ipv6 is ready for prime time, but editing might still be months to years out. 70.59.28.93 (talk) 17:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you've been informed right Jimmy, there is a way to seemlessly support both, many sites have already implimented it. It would definately need to be something that gets implimented by tech staff. Most people, I would imagine, would be contacted by their ISP's about the transition. Mrlittleirish 14:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Jim Hawkins AfD

Jimbo, what is your view here? This is a borderline notable BBC journalist who really does not want to have a biography here, and says he feels stalked by Misplaced Pages. I believe you commented on this case six years (!) ago. This is how long this has been going on. --JN466 14:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's an unusual case. At least in terms of what has been presented, it is clear to me that a couple of people should be topic-banned from the article for being annoying for no encyclopedic purpose, and it should be indefinitely semi-protected. At the same time, I think "stalked by Wikpedia" is a fairly ludicrous claim. It looks like a handful of people want to include his full name (which is not a particularly remarkable name nor something that I can understand why he would want to hide) and date of birth (which he openly acknowledges publicly in other contexts) into the article. My thought is that although neither of those things should be included in Misplaced Pages against his wishes without really solid sourcing, including them is hardly 'stalking'. It's just mainly being annoying for no encyclopedic purpose.

Having said all that, it's disappointing that this has gone on for six years, on and off. I wish that the subject had kept in contact with me or OTRS, because this seems pretty easy to solve really.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Surely it can't be stalking if there are other sources that verify the content we hold within the pages of wikipedia. I would understand his claims if there was deeply personal information on there, that had no verifiable sources. Shame[REDACTED] doesn't have an article as to what the world is coming to. Mrlittleirish 15:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This low notability subject is talking in a negative way on his radio show and on twitter to a lot of people and putting off a lot of people about the project in general - delete - hes a local radio host of little note that really really does not want a[REDACTED] biography, he is suggesting it is making him ill - have a little respect - go and vote to delete it - this is not an ordinary case setting a precedent, being repeated all over, its a isolated plea from the subject to delete - Youreallycan 15:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

"go and vote to delete it"? Could contributors to this page please take care to make some attempt to comply with the Canvassing guideline. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, shame on[REDACTED] and shame on anyone supporting the project continue to publish this biography of a local radio presenter that has been objecting to it for years and who states it is adversely affecting his health. - Youreallycan 16:10, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must point out Fæ, that this isn't a vote, nor is the AfD, but a discussion, so I don't think canvassing is an issue here. Mrlittleirish 16:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The canvassing guideline does apply to deletion discussions and it states "However canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion towards one side of a debate is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behaviour." The fact that Youreallcan was asking people to go and "vote to delete" is precisely such behaviour. I recommend any reader here take a moment to go and carefully read Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) for themselves to judge precisely what in the current version could possibly be considered a WP:BLP or WP:BLPPRIVACY problem that would require the article to be deleted from Misplaced Pages. --Fæ (talk) 16:22, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Canvassing never ever ever (ever ever) applies to my talk page. Please stop trying to stop people from discussing here,--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, for a start he has said he opts out of having his birthdate in his article, as is his good right according to policy. It's just that one editor thinks it's not his good right, and for years keeps on about inserting it, based on watching the subject's tweets, year after year, to see when he thanks someone for having wished him a happy birthday. --JN466 16:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Only his year of birth is in the article, this appears to comply with WP:BLPPRIVACY. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, there has been stalkery content in the biography in the past, down to such details as to which Yahoo discussion groups the biography subject allegedly frequents and what he allegedly likes on his sandwich (all unsourced). What on earth is that doing in a biography, and being reinserted again and again and again? I can certainly understand it driving someone to distraction. JN466 16:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

If anyone can find such content in the current article, please go ahead and remove it in accordance with Biographies of living persons. If some detail from 2 years ago in the article history is a privacy problem, then it can and should be deleted from the history. If Jayen466 provides details of "stalkery" privacy breaching history to Oversight or sends a confidential email to the Volunteer Response Team it will be addressed. Deleting the article does not look like the most reasonable way of addressing such complaints. --Fæ (talk) 16:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Why is there no mention in Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) of the fact that his mum babysat Ian Dury? Is that what Hawkins is trying to hide? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's certainly on the CURRENT TALK PAGE with a big heading "50th Birthday" and several hundred words of discussion, which began three weeks ago and is ongoing. Last time I looked, talk pages were included in BLP policy. So we are clearly not able to maintain BLP compliance in this biography, the subject has asked us to get rid of it, and we should admit our failings and do so graciously. JN466 16:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment The article's entire talk page is presently a BLP violation. The subject opted out of having their date of birth in the article years ago, and yet the talk page is filled with speculation over his birth date, based on stalking his tweets. Further more, the subject is currently being called "deliberately obstructive" on the talk page for exercising his right under policy to have his date of birth excluded, and his objections are called "not relevant". Again, all he has done is exercise his right under WP:BLPPRIVACY. For that, he is abused, while nothing happens to the editors denying him the rights granted him by policy. I don't think that is fair. JN466 16:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement, the talk page must comply with WP:BLPPRIVACY and if we have an OTRS ticket on file to support the complaint (which I think we probably do in ticket # 2009090910048758) then full details of birth date should be removed if the subject has objected in line with policy. I note that "postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons" should also be suppressed if considered part of the request or complaint. If article editors want to have a long debate about how to use Twitter as verifiable sources (ugh) then I would prefer to see even that in the abstract though there might be a debate to be had about interpretation of "websites maintained by the subject are generally permitted". This is a perfectly good discussion to reach a consensus on WP:AN or similar but not a reason to delete the article, or for that matter a reason to run a dramatic canvassing campaign (on or off-wiki) that runs the risk of allegations of manipulating consensus. --Fæ (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

If we keep getting it wrong, for years and years on end, and the subject is of borderline notability and clearly exasperated by what our process of writing biographies produces, then we should have the largesse to say sorry and withdraw the article. JN466 17:22, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Unworkable. Misplaced Pages is not a vanity publishing site where, say, a low ranking politician might not like details of their published expenses discussed or an American lawyer might want either a flattering article or none at all because they can claim they feel harassed by independent, verifiable and encyclopaedic facts being on Misplaced Pages. Strategically, I suggest you concentrate on helping everyone understand what WP:BLPPRIVACY really means before attempting to take down the whole of Misplaced Pages. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Let's drop the vanity that some shoddy little article is somehow the crown jewels of Misplaced Pages's educational mission. There are probably tens of thousands of more notable people around the world for whom we don't have an article at all. And by the way, it is an established part of deletion policy, and has been for some time, that no-consensus deletion discussions where the subject has requested deletion may be taken to default to "Delete". It is workable, and has worked like this for some considerable time. --JN466 17:55, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a rare event. As someone who has made well over 100,000 edits across the projects, I have been part of many deletion discussions and I can't remember being part of such a discussion that was closed in this way. I support the principle, and if someone can point out good examples of our policy working this way, it might be helpful for all concerned. I agree on the problem of how many highly notable people have no articles, one area that irks me is how many highly notable UK academics at chair or head of department level remain unmentioned on the encyclopaedia compared to the endless reality TV celebrutards with excruciating detail based on tabloid gossip about their personal lives (though I would not want to see a deletion spree against celebrutards, public interest, blah, blah). --Fæ (talk) 18:22, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yes Fæ, you're right. Please accept my apologies. Mrlittleirish 16:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well if it keeps trending the way it is now then the article seems to be heading towards a keep. If os, I do urge an AN/I discussion on topic bans be initiated as soon as the AfD closes. Tarc (talk) 16:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comments are now coming in - keep as per User:Jimbo Wales..... also , unidentifiable internet users are commenting - keep , he's a local radio presenter - who cares if he is upset about it for years and claims the article is affecting his health. - Youreallycan 16:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted so any vote of keep per Jiimbp should be struck.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me what an equivalent position to "BBC Shropshire presenter" would be in the US? Would be just be like Steve Inskeep or just some guy who has a call-in talk radio show on an AM station? Mark Arsten (talk) 16:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

More like the latter. Shropshire is a rural county with a population of less than half a million, although one of his programmes also reaches a few other counties. --JN466 17:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not really useful to compare US and UK radio. There are many times more stations available in a typical area of the US. Maybe if you imagine a parallel world where there were two or three stations covering one of the smaller states plus eight national radio stations. Radio Shropshire will be listened to by a far greater number of people than a typical AM station in the US. --FormerIP (talk) 17:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)