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	I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN. I've looked at the ] and the ] essay and I find no policy or guideline which ''requires'' the inclusion or exclusion of the material removed in . The essay is only an essay and is not binding in any way; the MoS guideline is, at its heart, about trivia sections not about the inclusion or exclusion of individual items which are contended to be trivia and, indeed, the third bullet point of ] expressly says:<blockquote>"This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by ]."</blockquote>No other policy or guideline has been brought forward to justify the inclusion or exclusion of this information, nor can I think of any which would do so. In light of that fact, then the information must be included or excluded by ]. The information was originally introduced into the article in and has remained there until the current controversy arose with the information being, first, broken into a separate section in , then removed in . It has been restored by two editors since that time. The ] says:<blockquote>"Some discussions result in no consensus. "No consensus" means that there is no consensus either way: it means that there is no consensus to take an action, but it also and equally means that there is no consensus not to take the action. What the community does next depends on the context. ... In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article."</blockquote>There is clearly no consensus at this point in time to support the removal of this long-existing material, so it should remain in the article until a clear consensus has been formed to remove it. If the editor wishing for the content to be removed desires to attract additional editors to the question, then a ] would be the best way to do so. My personal feeling is that while the material is unquestionably marginal that it could be of importance to some readers and, indeed, supports the ] of the subject of the article, so my support would be for continued inclusion. Regards, ] (]) \| ] 17:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)		I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN. I've looked at the ] and the ] essay and I find no policy or guideline which ''requires'' the inclusion or exclusion of the material removed in . The essay is only an essay and is not binding in any way; the MoS guideline is, at its heart, about trivia sections not about the inclusion or exclusion of individual items which are contended to be trivia and, indeed, the third bullet point of ] expressly says:<blockquote>"This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by ]."</blockquote>No other policy or guideline has been brought forward to justify the inclusion or exclusion of this information, nor can I think of any which would do so. In light of that fact, then the information must be included or excluded by ]. The information was originally introduced into the article in and has remained there until the current controversy arose with the information being, first, broken into a separate section in , then removed in . It has been restored by two editors since that time. The ] says:<blockquote>"Some discussions result in no consensus. "No consensus" means that there is no consensus either way: it means that there is no consensus to take an action, but it also and equally means that there is no consensus not to take the action. What the community does next depends on the context. ... In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article."</blockquote>There is clearly no consensus at this point in time to support the removal of this long-existing material, so it should remain in the article until a clear consensus has been formed to remove it. If the editor wishing for the content to be removed desires to attract additional editors to the question, then a ] would be the best way to do so. My personal feeling is that while the material is unquestionably marginal that it could be of importance to some readers and, indeed, supports the ] of the subject of the article, so my support would be for continued inclusion. Regards, ] (]) \| ] 17:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
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Saša Hiršzon - Alternate name policy

Closing as wrong venue. See closing comments. Sleddog116 (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Closed discussion

Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Saša Hiršzon (edit \| talk \| history \| links \| watch \| logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? How tennis project handles naming issues. Reading the Saša Hiršzon talk page bottom should clarify most of this. In short we have article first lines like Andrea Petkovic (Serbian: Andrea Petković) in which we try to follow wiki policy alternate name protocol. I added the obverse to this article to make it Saša Hiršzon (English: Sasa Hirszon), or Saša Hiršzon (Common Name: Sasa Hirszon) or Saša Hiršzon (alternate name: Sasa Hirszon) which has been rejected by Joy. This seems overly biased and one-sided to some of us. I had asked for advise from an administrator after the first revert by Joy to make sure I wasn't crazy in thinking the format should apply to both sides of the issue. I know diacritic battles happen often on[REDACTED] but this seemed outside that and into unfairness. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Joy (talk · contribs) Fyunck(click) (talk · contribs) MakeSense64 (talk · contribs) Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text `{{subst:DRN-notice\|thread=Saša Hiršzon - Alternate name policy}} --~~~~` in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? talk page and administrative advise. How do you think we can help? you can help find some common ground. We have many tennis pages that will be created and fall into this same trap. Plus new editors ask us at Tennis project why things are the way they are and on this issue we'll just have to throw up our hands and say, I don't know. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC) Saša Hiršzon - Alternate name policy discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Template:Cue Hello, everybody! Sorry I haven't commented before now, but I wanted to give this dispute a day or so to see if anyone else would weigh in. This is a little bit of a complicated issue, so I hope you'll give me a little more time to research the situation before giving advice on the situation. I can give some general advice to the editors involved. First, I would like to commend you all for your tireless work; it seems like a lot of fuss over a few marks over letters, but you all seem to understand the Misplaced Pages process very well; from the (lengthy) discussion I've seen on the talk page, it looks like you're all managing to keep your cool even though you disagree. One thing I would like to bring up here - this noticeboard is informal as far as dispute resolution goes; nothing here is "binding" or even necessarily represents consensus. That being said, I would like to offer a couple of suggestions. First, Fyunck, you mentioned that you asked for advice from an admin (thanks for providing the link); did the admin give any useful advice? If you're trying to get an admin to resolve the issue, that's beyond the scope of this noticeboard; it appeared to be just an informal request for advice, but I had a hard time making heads or tails of it. Second, has anyone here considered consulting the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style? I would think that it would have something related to this issue (and I will thoroughly check when I have the time). Lastly, have you considered putting a request for comments on the article? When two or more editors are stuck in a deadlock over how to proceed, comments from uninvolved editors are often the best way to break that block. As this is (I would imagine) a fairly low-traffic article, that could take some time to generate results, but it might be worth a try. One last thing to consider: this article seems to be within the scope of WikiProject Tennis. Do members of the project have any ideas as to how best to treat the names? Let's see if we can sort through this mess - just remember to stay cool, as you've done a good job doing so far. Cheers. Sleddog116 (talk) 01:09, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Manual of Style: I have looked in the Manual of Style (particularly at this section) and found this information: Foreign proper names written in languages which use the Latin alphabet often include characters with diacritics, ligatures and others that are not commonly used in modern English. Misplaced Pages normally retains these special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters. For example, the name of the article on Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős is spelt with the double acute accent, and the alternative spellings Paul Erdös and Paul Erdos redirect to that article. Similarly the name of the article on the Nordic god Ægir is so spelt, with redirects from the Anglicised form Aegir and the Swedish spelling Ägir. However, the article on the Spanish region of Aragón is titled Aragon, without the accent, as this is the established English name. I think that might help solve some of the question of this dispute. Hopefully, you'll find it useful. Keeping the above in mind, what would be the best way to proceed? Also, as far as the "established English name" part is concerned, don't be to quick to latch onto that; I doubt very seriously that this individual has an "established English name". Forgive me if I sound presumptuous, but I don't expect that prescribed/established English gives much treatment one way or the other to Croatian tennis players. It's really important, though, that we follow the manual of style; if you follow the MoS and there is still a dispute, the next step is to discuss the possibility of a new consensus to change the MoS - but the MoS is changed very infrequently and not without lengthy discussion, so you'll likely be disappointed there. Sleddog116 (talk) 01:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Ok, then let me try being more clear by adding a few things. First, to answer your other queries: The admin's useful advise was that what I was doing was reasonable... not vandalism and made good sense. If I feel "hey, might I be off in left field somewhere?", then asking an administrator is my first step to sanity around here. His answer said it sounded very reasonable. Also there is quite a lot of English source material for "Sasa Hirszon." You can google it yourself... lots of hits. The ITF, ATP, Davis Cup, and almost all sports related references use "Sasa Hirszon." Tennis Project...past consensus and guidelines call for ITF name and other English language sources such as newspapers and tv. Again that is "Sasa Hirszon." The number one player in the world Novak Djokovic has it, Novak Djokovic (Template:Lang-sr. Plus things like WP:COMMONNAME says "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". But this has gone round and round at[REDACTED] for years in all topics with no real resolution as far as the article title goes and I wouldn't want to drag you into the actual titling of a tennis biography. That's always a big battle. I simply look at that as we will always have players at diacritic and non-diacritic names... it depends on the wind that day. The problem here is that since we do have players at both types of titling, like it or not, how should it be formatted so that it's correct for both? I mentioned Novak Djokovic or we could also look at hockey and Marek Zidlicky. If the title gets polled and voted on for Novak Djokovic and we put his Czech spelling right afterwards as Novak Đoković, then should the opposite also be true? If a player gets polled and voted on to be at Saša Hiršzon should we also add his English spelling of Sasa Hirszon right afterwards? I had suggested Saša Hiršzon (English: Sasa Hirszon) or instead of English we could use "common name: Sasa Hirszon" or "alternate name: Sasa Hirszon", and those were shot down. I looked at some other biographies like Sting (musician) and Pink (singer) and they did it a bit differently. If we did Sasa Hirszon that way the common name "Sasa Hirszon" would be the article title and the first line would be: Saša Hiršzon, professionally known as Sasa Hirszon, etc... I'm flexible, I could live with that but I'm not sure others would. I'll try it and see if it sticks right now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Your use of Sting and Pink as examples is bit of a non sequitur. Their alternative (rather: real) names are quite unlike their common names. On the other hand, informing the reader that "š" is a diacritically modified "s" seems rather like a statement of the obvious. Favonian (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Template:Cue/Clerk's Comment: The names that appear in the lead should be the native name followed by the English name (if there is one). Take a look at: Misplaced Pages:Article_titles#Treatment_of_alternative_names for more information. Whenaxis talk · contribs \| DR goes to Wikimania! 22:43, 18 March 2012 (UTC) Yes, we have brought up that argument many times, but then we get countered with arguments like "this is not an alternative name, but only an alternative spelling of his name". Then they argue the alternative spelling is not needed because it is opaque to the reader. I think that is a clear misinterpretation of the policy in question, because the examples it uses shows that its scope is about significant alternatives names and significant alternative spellings of them. And "significant" depends only on whether we find the particular alternative in a good portion of our English language sources. If I am right on this, then I would suggest to edit the wording of that section in the policy about alternative names, making clear that it is about alternative names AND "alternative spellings of the name" (which can then also be English spelling of the name if article is kept at the foreign name). Right now that policy gets used to push the English spelled name out of the article. I don't think that was the purpose. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC) The issue at hand here is that pro-diacritics editors first come to tennis articles to move them to diacritics spelling (even tough tennis players always compete under a non-diacritics name, see WP:TENNISNAMES ). And then they go on to effectively ban the English spelling of the name from the article. Fyunck's edit to add his English spelling name was promptly reverted. This tennis player is always mentioned as "Sasa Hirszon" in all English sources and articles related to tennis. In the RM discussion there were 116 sources that spelled him as "Sasa Hirszon" and only one English source was found spelling him with diacritics. If more than 99% of our sources mention him as "Sasa Hirszon" then it is quite important to at least mention his common English name as a significant alternative spelling in the lede. The argument that it is obvious to the reader that "š" is a diacritically modified "s", is weak because for a reader who is not an expert on tennis it can always raise doubts whether this Saša Hiršzon is the same player as the Sasa Hirszon they see in tournament draws. For example we have also a player Radek Štěpánek, but as we can see in this disambiguation page: Štěpánek, a lot of Stepaneks have already dropped the diacritics from their name. When people immigrate it is not uncommon to drop the diacritics in their name. Our articles should not raise that kind of doubts. Adding the common English spelling in articles that are kept at the diacritics version allows the reader to confirm that it is indeed the same player. This problem also occurs in other articles. For example I mentioned Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir. Why does a reader have to scroll down all the way to the references to find out what is the common English spelling for her name? Such basic information (and easy to back up by sources) should be right up there in the lede. The pro-diacritics crowd is going too far in a lot of articles, not just in tennis. MakeSense64 (talk) 05:56, 19 March 2012 (UTC) Clerk Comment: MakeSense64, your last comment made some good points, but don't try to turn this into a polarized confrontation (as you did with your last sentence). To say that "Group pro-X is going too far" is to put everything into "pro-X" and "anti-X" when, in fact, other options may be possible. I think, Fyunck, that the best course of action here is to follow the manual of style and the Tennis Project's guidelines on the use of diacritics. If you still disagree, I think your best option would be to go there and discuss a possible change in the consensus on said guidelines. My question on how to spell the name might sound like an oversimplification, but it might be worth considering: is there any reasonable reader who is actually going to type the diacritics in when searching for the article? If not, that means that including the diacritics would turn virtually every search for the article(s) in question into a redirect; if we take this into account for every tennis article that is/would be affected by the use of diacritics, we need to consider the fact that this might put more of a strain on WP's servers than necessary and would increase load time for the average reader. Has anyone considered the discussion from that angle? Sleddog116 (talk) 13:47, 19 March 2012 (UTC) Thanks for your efforts, but I think few editors will deny that WP is already polarized about the diacritics issue. We can just read some past discussions around it. To move article from non-diacritics to diacritics title after RM discussion is one thing. To then go on and insist on not having the common English spelling of the name anywhere in the article, is another thing and not backed by any policy. Then all I can say is that imo it shows an "anti-English-spelling" bias, how else would you suggest to describe it? In "silk terms"? I can agree that "group" would have been a better wording than "crowd". By the way, same kind of editing has now started at Sasa Tuksar as well, some editors refuse the mention of the English spelling of his name in the lede of the article. Further to your points. The tennis project guidelines are being brought up all the time, but nothing suggests that they are given any weight in such discussions. The argument of server load was also brought up (and discussed on the project tennis as well), but was brushed away as unimportant. We found that for example for Novak Djokovic the usage stats show about 99% of visitors coming to the non-diacritics name, with about 1% of visits searching on a diacritics version of his name. And since an average tennis player's name is mentioned in about 500 other WP articles (e.g. draws and tournaments articles), that's hundreds of wikilinks that go through the redirect pages, and this for each of the 100s of players we have on WP. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC) As far as diacritic polarization, MakeSense is correct. All you have to do is look at our number one tennis player's archives of 4 move requests to see at how they came to the conclusion that it should be at the non-diacritic name of Novak Djokovic. Djokovic move request 1, Djokovic move request 2, Djokovic move requests 3-4 Things haven't changed much since then. But to have no mention in the lead at all that there is a name used in almost all English circles does seem very biased and anti-English-spelling. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC) As I have stated numerous times already, my position is based in Misplaced Pages:Article titles, specifically the naming criteria. See Talk:Mate Pavić, where I also explained my position on Đoković v Djokovic in that regard. Also, there's apparently now Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis/Tennis_names#RfC:_Can_a_wikiproject_require_no-diacritics_names.2C_based_on_an_organisation.27s_rule_or_commonness_in_English_press.3F because this isn't a particular dispute between myself and these two editors, it's a more general issue. --Joy (talk) 08:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC) The issue of name placement bias once an article has been established is the dispute I have with you. Where your link mainly deals with the article titles itself. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC) It is my firm belief that most other people (English readers) do not distinguish between š and s, ć and c, ž and z, etc in a manner that immediately and significantly affects their comprehension of a name that includes the diacritics. Therefore, repeating the name stripped of diacritics next to the one with it, lacking a specific ITF name and rationale for the term or something similar, doesn't make any more sense than, for example, writing "Dr. Dre, also known as Dr Dre, Doctor Dre, dr dre, Dre, ..." in the lead section of Dr. Dre. It would be superfluous and it would be placing undue weight on the typographical issue. --Joy (talk) 13:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC) But the tennis project position is also based in Misplaced Pages:Article titles, section WP:UE states clearly: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage.", then goes on to give some examples, including the name of a person. So it also applies to names of persons. The English-language usage for names of tennis players is very clear-cut, as is explained in the essay you mention. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC) Once again - a straight removal of diacritics does not constitute a meaningful form of anglicisation. See what I wrote recently at Talk:Saša Tuksar. --Joy (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2012 (UTC) Template:Cue Comment: Being the nosy sort, it seems to me the clear solution is to spell the name as it is properly spelt, Anglicise it as is commonly done next to it in parentheses. This fits all rules as I understand them and clarifies the name issue for the common reader. I think it does show a sort of 'English bias' removing diacritical marks from a persons name, or from any proper name. Diacritical marks are avoided mostly because it's too darned difficult to get them right when editing.—Djathinkimacowboy 15:55, 20 March 2012 (UTC) It's not actually commonly "anglicised" like that on the English Misplaced Pages. The vast majority of Croatian people whose names have diacritics also have them in their article titles and content, pretty consistently, despite the fact they're treated pretty much the same way as tennis players elsewhere. And nobody seems to have thought it unclear enough to bring up much of a complaint - the last contentious move that I remember was a corner case involving the less trivial translation đ into dj at Talk:Franjo Tuđman/Archive 1#ASCII - in 2008. So years and years pass, at an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, without any of the hundreds of millions of native English readers bothering to do anything. And then suddenly we have a problem with tennis player names? I believe we rather have a problem with a handful of tendentious editors. --Joy (talk) 12:19, 21 March 2012 (UTC) Clerk Comment: I'm really beginning to think (and by that, I mean I'm sort of insisting upon) that this needs further discussion (with broader community) involvement here instead of here at DRN. A request for comments might also be apropos if not enough people get involved in the discussion there. However, I'm ~~on the verge of~~ closing this thread; it's unlikely that any discussion here is going to reflect consensus. I think that this really should reflect the community's consensus rather than the DRN consensus of a few of the filed editors. ~~I'll leave it open for now, but~~ I sincerely don't think that DRN is the best venue at this point. Sleddog116 (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.* Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.*

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Saša Hiršzon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

How tennis project handles naming issues. Reading the Saša Hiršzon talk page bottom should clarify most of this. In short we have article first lines like Andrea Petkovic (Serbian: Andrea Petković) in which we try to follow wiki policy alternate name protocol. I added the obverse to this article to make it Saša Hiršzon (English: Sasa Hirszon), or Saša Hiršzon (Common Name: Sasa Hirszon) or Saša Hiršzon (alternate name: Sasa Hirszon) which has been rejected by Joy. This seems overly biased and one-sided to some of us. I had asked for advise from an administrator after the first revert by Joy to make sure I wasn't crazy in thinking the format should apply to both sides of the issue. I know diacritic battles happen often on[REDACTED] but this seemed outside that and into unfairness.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Saša Hiršzon - Alternate name policy}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

talk page and administrative advise.

How do you think we can help?

you can help find some common ground. We have many tennis pages that will be created and fall into this same trap. Plus new editors ask us at Tennis project why things are the way they are and on this issue we'll just have to throw up our hands and say, I don't know.

Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Saša Hiršzon - Alternate name policy discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Template:Cue Hello, everybody! Sorry I haven't commented before now, but I wanted to give this dispute a day or so to see if anyone else would weigh in. This is a little bit of a complicated issue, so I hope you'll give me a little more time to research the situation before giving advice on the situation. I can give some general advice to the editors involved. First, I would like to commend you all for your tireless work; it seems like a lot of fuss over a few marks over letters, but you all seem to understand the Misplaced Pages process very well; from the (lengthy) discussion I've seen on the talk page, it looks like you're all managing to keep your cool even though you disagree. One thing I would like to bring up here - this noticeboard is informal as far as dispute resolution goes; nothing here is "binding" or even necessarily represents consensus.

That being said, I would like to offer a couple of suggestions. First, Fyunck, you mentioned that you asked for advice from an admin (thanks for providing the link); did the admin give any useful advice? If you're trying to get an admin to resolve the issue, that's beyond the scope of this noticeboard; it appeared to be just an informal request for advice, but I had a hard time making heads or tails of it. Second, has anyone here considered consulting the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style? I would think that it would have something related to this issue (and I will thoroughly check when I have the time). Lastly, have you considered putting a request for comments on the article? When two or more editors are stuck in a deadlock over how to proceed, comments from uninvolved editors are often the best way to break that block. As this is (I would imagine) a fairly low-traffic article, that could take some time to generate results, but it might be worth a try.

One last thing to consider: this article seems to be within the scope of WikiProject Tennis. Do members of the project have any ideas as to how best to treat the names?

Let's see if we can sort through this mess - just remember to stay cool, as you've done a good job doing so far. Cheers. Sleddog116 (talk) 01:09, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Manual of Style: I have looked in the Manual of Style (particularly at this section) and found this information:

Foreign proper names written in languages which use the Latin alphabet often include characters with diacritics, ligatures and others that are not commonly used in modern English. Misplaced Pages normally retains these special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters. For example, the name of the article on Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős is spelt with the double acute accent, and the alternative spellings Paul Erdös and Paul Erdos redirect to that article. Similarly the name of the article on the Nordic god Ægir is so spelt, with redirects from the Anglicised form Aegir and the Swedish spelling Ägir. However, the article on the Spanish region of Aragón is titled Aragon, without the accent, as this is the established English name.

I think that might help solve some of the question of this dispute. Hopefully, you'll find it useful. Keeping the above in mind, what would be the best way to proceed? Also, as far as the "established English name" part is concerned, don't be to quick to latch onto that; I doubt very seriously that this individual has an "established English name". Forgive me if I sound presumptuous, but I don't expect that prescribed/established English gives much treatment one way or the other to Croatian tennis players. It's really important, though, that we follow the manual of style; if you follow the MoS and there is still a dispute, the next step is to discuss the possibility of a new consensus to change the MoS - but the MoS is changed very infrequently and not without lengthy discussion, so you'll likely be disappointed there. Sleddog116 (talk) 01:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, then let me try being more clear by adding a few things. First, to answer your other queries: The admin's useful advise was that what I was doing was reasonable... not vandalism and made good sense. If I feel "hey, might I be off in left field somewhere?", then asking an administrator is my first step to sanity around here. His answer said it sounded very reasonable. Also there is quite a lot of English source material for "Sasa Hirszon." You can google it yourself... lots of hits. The ITF, ATP, Davis Cup, and almost all sports related references use "Sasa Hirszon." Tennis Project...past consensus and guidelines call for ITF name and other English language sources such as newspapers and tv. Again that is "Sasa Hirszon." The number one player in the world Novak Djokovic has it, Novak Djokovic (Template:Lang-sr. Plus things like WP:COMMONNAME says "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources".

But this has gone round and round at[REDACTED] for years in all topics with no real resolution as far as the article title goes and I wouldn't want to drag you into the actual titling of a tennis biography. That's always a big battle. I simply look at that as we will always have players at diacritic and non-diacritic names... it depends on the wind that day. The problem here is that since we do have players at both types of titling, like it or not, how should it be formatted so that it's correct for both? I mentioned Novak Djokovic or we could also look at hockey and Marek Zidlicky. If the title gets polled and voted on for Novak Djokovic and we put his Czech spelling right afterwards as Novak Đoković, then should the opposite also be true? If a player gets polled and voted on to be at Saša Hiršzon should we also add his English spelling of Sasa Hirszon right afterwards? I had suggested Saša Hiršzon (English: Sasa Hirszon) or instead of English we could use "common name: Sasa Hirszon" or "alternate name: Sasa Hirszon", and those were shot down. I looked at some other biographies like Sting (musician) and Pink (singer) and they did it a bit differently. If we did Sasa Hirszon that way the common name "Sasa Hirszon" would be the article title and the first line would be: Saša Hiršzon, professionally known as Sasa Hirszon, etc... I'm flexible, I could live with that but I'm not sure others would. I'll try it and see if it sticks right now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Your use of Sting and Pink as examples is bit of a non sequitur. Their alternative (rather: real) names are quite unlike their common names. On the other hand, informing the reader that "š" is a diacritically modified "s" seems rather like a statement of the obvious. Favonian (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:Cue/Clerk's Comment: The names that appear in the lead should be the native name followed by the English name (if there is one). Take a look at: Misplaced Pages:Article_titles#Treatment_of_alternative_names for more information. Whenaxis talk · contribs | DR goes to Wikimania! 22:43, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we have brought up that argument many times, but then we get countered with arguments like "this is not an alternative name, but only an alternative spelling of his name". Then they argue the alternative spelling is not needed because it is opaque to the reader. I think that is a clear misinterpretation of the policy in question, because the examples it uses shows that its scope is about significant alternatives names and significant alternative spellings of them. And "significant" depends only on whether we find the particular alternative in a good portion of our English language sources. If I am right on this, then I would suggest to edit the wording of that section in the policy about alternative names, making clear that it is about alternative names AND "alternative spellings of the name" (which can then also be English spelling of the name if article is kept at the foreign name). Right now that policy gets used to push the English spelled name out of the article. I don't think that was the purpose. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

The issue at hand here is that pro-diacritics editors first come to tennis articles to move them to diacritics spelling (even tough tennis players always compete under a non-diacritics name, see WP:TENNISNAMES ). And then they go on to effectively ban the English spelling of the name from the article. Fyunck's edit to add his English spelling name was promptly reverted. This tennis player is always mentioned as "Sasa Hirszon" in all English sources and articles related to tennis. In the RM discussion there were 116 sources that spelled him as "Sasa Hirszon" and only one English source was found spelling him with diacritics. If more than 99% of our sources mention him as "Sasa Hirszon" then it is quite important to at least mention his common English name as a significant alternative spelling in the lede. The argument that it is obvious to the reader that "š" is a diacritically modified "s", is weak because for a reader who is not an expert on tennis it can always raise doubts whether this Saša Hiršzon is the same player as the Sasa Hirszon they see in tournament draws. For example we have also a player Radek Štěpánek, but as we can see in this disambiguation page: Štěpánek, a lot of Stepaneks have already dropped the diacritics from their name. When people immigrate it is not uncommon to drop the diacritics in their name. Our articles should not raise that kind of doubts. Adding the common English spelling in articles that are kept at the diacritics version allows the reader to confirm that it is indeed the same player. This problem also occurs in other articles. For example I mentioned Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir. Why does a reader have to scroll down all the way to the references to find out what is the common English spelling for her name? Such basic information (and easy to back up by sources) should be right up there in the lede. The pro-diacritics crowd is going too far in a lot of articles, not just in tennis. MakeSense64 (talk) 05:56, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Clerk Comment: MakeSense64, your last comment made some good points, but don't try to turn this into a polarized confrontation (as you did with your last sentence). To say that "Group pro-X is going too far" is to put everything into "pro-X" and "anti-X" when, in fact, other options may be possible. I think, Fyunck, that the best course of action here is to follow the manual of style and the Tennis Project's guidelines on the use of diacritics. If you still disagree, I think your best option would be to go there and discuss a possible change in the consensus on said guidelines. My question on how to spell the name might sound like an oversimplification, but it might be worth considering: is there any reasonable reader who is actually going to type the diacritics in when searching for the article? If not, that means that including the diacritics would turn virtually every search for the article(s) in question into a redirect; if we take this into account for every tennis article that is/would be affected by the use of diacritics, we need to consider the fact that this might put more of a strain on WP's servers than necessary and would increase load time for the average reader. Has anyone considered the discussion from that angle? Sleddog116 (talk) 13:47, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts, but I think few editors will deny that WP is already polarized about the diacritics issue. We can just read some past discussions around it. To move article from non-diacritics to diacritics title after RM discussion is one thing. To then go on and insist on not having the common English spelling of the name anywhere in the article, is another thing and not backed by any policy. Then all I can say is that imo it shows an "anti-English-spelling" bias, how else would you suggest to describe it? In "silk terms"? I can agree that "group" would have been a better wording than "crowd". By the way, same kind of editing has now started at Sasa Tuksar as well, some editors refuse the mention of the English spelling of his name in the lede of the article.

Further to your points. The tennis project guidelines are being brought up all the time, but nothing suggests that they are given any weight in such discussions. The argument of server load was also brought up (and discussed on the project tennis as well), but was brushed away as unimportant. We found that for example for Novak Djokovic the usage stats show about 99% of visitors coming to the non-diacritics name, with about 1% of visits searching on a diacritics version of his name. And since an average tennis player's name is mentioned in about 500 other WP articles (e.g. draws and tournaments articles), that's hundreds of wikilinks that go through the redirect pages, and this for each of the 100s of players we have on WP. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as diacritic polarization, MakeSense is correct. All you have to do is look at our number one tennis player's archives of 4 move requests to see at how they came to the conclusion that it should be at the non-diacritic name of Novak Djokovic. Djokovic move request 1, Djokovic move request 2, Djokovic move requests 3-4 Things haven't changed much since then. But to have no mention in the lead at all that there is a name used in almost all English circles does seem very biased and anti-English-spelling. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

As I have stated numerous times already, my position is based in Misplaced Pages:Article titles, specifically the naming criteria. See Talk:Mate Pavić, where I also explained my position on Đoković v Djokovic in that regard. Also, there's apparently now Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis/Tennis_names#RfC:_Can_a_wikiproject_require_no-diacritics_names.2C_based_on_an_organisation.27s_rule_or_commonness_in_English_press.3F because this isn't a particular dispute between myself and these two editors, it's a more general issue. --Joy (talk) 08:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The issue of name placement bias once an article has been established is the dispute I have with you. Where your link mainly deals with the article titles itself. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

It is my firm belief that most other people (English readers) do not distinguish between š and s, ć and c, ž and z, etc in a manner that immediately and significantly affects their comprehension of a name that includes the diacritics. Therefore, repeating the name stripped of diacritics next to the one with it, lacking a specific ITF name and rationale for the term or something similar, doesn't make any more sense than, for example, writing "Dr. Dre, also known as Dr Dre, Doctor Dre, dr dre, Dre, ..." in the lead section of Dr. Dre. It would be superfluous and it would be placing undue weight on the typographical issue. --Joy (talk) 13:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

But the tennis project position is also based in Misplaced Pages:Article titles, section WP:UE states clearly: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage.", then goes on to give some examples, including the name of a person. So it also applies to names of persons. The English-language usage for names of tennis players is very clear-cut, as is explained in the essay you mention. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Once again - a straight removal of diacritics does not constitute a meaningful form of anglicisation. See what I wrote recently at Talk:Saša Tuksar. --Joy (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:Cue Comment: Being the nosy sort, it seems to me the clear solution is to spell the name as it is properly spelt, Anglicise it as is commonly done next to it in parentheses. This fits all rules as I understand them and clarifies the name issue for the common reader. I think it does show a sort of 'English bias' removing diacritical marks from a persons name, or from any proper name. Diacritical marks are avoided mostly because it's too darned difficult to get them right when editing.—Djathinkimacowboy 15:55, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not actually commonly "anglicised" like that on the English Misplaced Pages. The vast majority of Croatian people whose names have diacritics also have them in their article titles and content, pretty consistently, despite the fact they're treated pretty much the same way as tennis players elsewhere. And nobody seems to have thought it unclear enough to bring up much of a complaint - the last contentious move that I remember was a corner case involving the less trivial translation đ into dj at Talk:Franjo Tuđman/Archive 1#ASCII - in 2008. So years and years pass, at an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, without any of the hundreds of millions of native English readers bothering to do anything. And then suddenly we have a problem with tennis player names? I believe we rather have a problem with a handful of tendentious editors. --Joy (talk) 12:19, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Clerk Comment: I'm really beginning to think (and by that, I mean I'm sort of insisting upon) that this needs further discussion (with broader community) involvement here instead of here at DRN. A request for comments might also be apropos if not enough people get involved in the discussion there. However, I'm ~~on the verge of~~ closing this thread; it's unlikely that any discussion here is going to reflect consensus. I think that this really should reflect the community's consensus rather than the DRN consensus of a few of the filed editors. ~~I'll leave it open for now, but~~ I sincerely don't think that DRN is the best venue at this point. Sleddog116 (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BMW R1100GS

Apparently resolved or abandoned — TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 16:53, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Closed discussion

Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. BMW R1100GS (edit \| talk \| history \| links \| watch \| logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? Regarding the relevance of a sepreate sub-section of text about a particular book that has been inserted into a general article page about a particular motorcycle. The talk page discussion has reached an impasse regarding the relevance/non-relevance of this book material to the motorbike and also, therefore, the relevance/non-relevance of sources for such. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Rivercard (talk · contribs) Dennis Bratland (talk · contribs) Biker Biker (talk · contribs) (Added by DRN clerk after examining dispute.) The original deletion of the book material was reinserted by a user who has 35 out of the article's 50 edits, so there may be an issue of 'ownership' here regarding 'outsider' edits. Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes (notices given by DRN clerk) N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text `{{subst:DRN-notice\|thread=BMW R1100GS}} --~~~~` in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? Discussion on the talk page of the article. How do you think we can help? Can we get some form of consensus on what consitutes relevance and trivia? For example, the added text regarding the book may be relevant to an article about the book, but non-relevant to the article about the bike. Rivercard (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC) BMW R1100GS discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN. I've looked at the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Trivia sections and the Misplaced Pages:Handling trivia essay and I find no policy or guideline which requires the inclusion or exclusion of the material removed in this edit. The essay is only an essay and is not binding in any way; the MoS guideline is, at its heart, about trivia sections not about the inclusion or exclusion of individual items which are contended to be trivia and, indeed, the third bullet point of Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Trivia sections#What this guideline is not expressly says: "This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by content policies." No other policy or guideline has been brought forward to justify the inclusion or exclusion of this information, nor can I think of any which would do so. In light of that fact, then the information must be included or excluded by consensus. The information was originally introduced into the article in this edit in 2009 and has remained there until the current controversy arose with the information being, first, broken into a separate section in this edit, then removed in this edit. It has been restored by two editors since that time. The consensus policy says: "Some discussions result in no consensus. "No consensus" means that there is no consensus either way: it means that there is no consensus to take an action, but it also and equally means that there is no consensus not to take the action. What the community does next depends on the context. ... In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article." There is clearly no consensus at this point in time to support the removal of this long-existing material, so it should remain in the article until a clear consensus has been formed to remove it. If the editor wishing for the content to be removed desires to attract additional editors to the question, then a request for comments would be the best way to do so. My personal feeling is that while the material is unquestionably marginal that it could be of importance to some readers and, indeed, supports the notability of the subject of the article, so my support would be for continued inclusion. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) \| DR goes to Wikimania! 17:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.* Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.*

BMW R1100GS (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Regarding the relevance of a sepreate sub-section of text about a particular book that has been inserted into a general article page about a particular motorcycle. The talk page discussion has reached an impasse regarding the relevance/non-relevance of this book material to the motorbike and also, therefore, the relevance/non-relevance of sources for such.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Rivercard (talk · contribs)
Dennis Bratland (talk · contribs)
Biker Biker (talk · contribs) (Added by DRN clerk after examining dispute.)

The original deletion of the book material was reinserted by a user who has 35 out of the article's 50 edits, so there may be an issue of 'ownership' here regarding 'outsider' edits.

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes (notices given by DRN clerk)

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=BMW R1100GS}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Discussion on the talk page of the article.

How do you think we can help?

Can we get some form of consensus on what consitutes relevance and trivia? For example, the added text regarding the book may be relevant to an article about the book, but non-relevant to the article about the bike.

Rivercard (talk) 15:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

BMW R1100GS discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN. I've looked at the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Trivia sections and the Misplaced Pages:Handling trivia essay and I find no policy or guideline which requires the inclusion or exclusion of the material removed in this edit. The essay is only an essay and is not binding in any way; the MoS guideline is, at its heart, about trivia sections not about the inclusion or exclusion of individual items which are contended to be trivia and, indeed, the third bullet point of Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Trivia sections#What this guideline is not expressly says:

"This guideline does not suggest the inclusion or exclusion of any information; it only gives style recommendations. Issues of inclusion are addressed by content policies."

No other policy or guideline has been brought forward to justify the inclusion or exclusion of this information, nor can I think of any which would do so. In light of that fact, then the information must be included or excluded by consensus. The information was originally introduced into the article in this edit in 2009 and has remained there until the current controversy arose with the information being, first, broken into a separate section in this edit, then removed in this edit. It has been restored by two editors since that time. The consensus policy says:

"Some discussions result in no consensus. "No consensus" means that there is no consensus either way: it means that there is no consensus to take an action, but it also and equally means that there is no consensus not to take the action. What the community does next depends on the context. ... In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article."

There is clearly no consensus at this point in time to support the removal of this long-existing material, so it should remain in the article until a clear consensus has been formed to remove it. If the editor wishing for the content to be removed desires to attract additional editors to the question, then a request for comments would be the best way to do so. My personal feeling is that while the material is unquestionably marginal that it could be of importance to some readers and, indeed, supports the notability of the subject of the article, so my support would be for continued inclusion. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) | DR goes to Wikimania! 17:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

WIND (spacecraft)

Inappropriate venue. Please take this request to the user's talk page,bot owners' noticeboard if it's a bot issue or at files for deletion. Regards, Whenaxis (contribs) 23:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Closed discussion

Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. WIND (spacecraft) (edit \| talk \| history \| links \| watch \| logs) File:Wind publication list 1996.pdf (edit \| talk \| history \| links \| watch \| logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? I have been trying to bring the Wind spacecraft page up to date ever since I started my position at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center as the deputy project scientist for said spacecraft. In the process of doing so, I have been compiling a list of refereed publications that either directly or indirectly use data sampled by Wind. Your bot, Eeekster, flagged these files and will not release them claiming some sort of copyright infringement. This is absolutely absurd. All bibliographic information contained in these files are completely open source, thus, available to anyone with internet. More importantly, if one spent less than five seconds glancing at the PDF files, they would realize how utterly absurd it would be to claim any type of copyright for them. I have put all of this information on NASA's website for Wind at: http://wind.nasa.gov/bibliographies.php. I tried to explain this issue to Eeekster, but they ignored me. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Lynnbwilsoniii (talk · contribs) Eeekster (talk · contribs) Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text `{{subst:DRN-notice\|thread=Http://en.wikipedia.org/WIND (spacecraft)}} --~~~~` in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? I tried to explain why it was absurd to flag these files to Eeekster already on their talk page, but they ignored me and continued to flag the files. How do you think we can help? Stop flagging files that have absolutely nothing in them that could be considered copyright material and release these files. Lynnbwilsoniii (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC) WIND (spacecraft) discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. I did nothing more that list the file for discussion due to the copyright tag you used (claim that it was your own work and that you own the rights). The file was delete because your claim was never defended. Your other uploads have the same issue. Eeekster (talk) 22:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.* Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.*

WIND (spacecraft) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
File:Wind publication list 1996.pdf (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I have been trying to bring the Wind spacecraft page up to date ever since I started my position at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center as the deputy project scientist for said spacecraft. In the process of doing so, I have been compiling a list of refereed publications that either directly or indirectly use data sampled by Wind. Your bot, Eeekster, flagged these files and will not release them claiming some sort of copyright infringement. This is absolutely absurd. All bibliographic information contained in these files are completely open source, thus, available to anyone with internet. More importantly, if one spent less than five seconds glancing at the PDF files, they would realize how utterly absurd it would be to claim any type of copyright for them. I have put all of this information on NASA's website for Wind at: http://wind.nasa.gov/bibliographies.php. I tried to explain this issue to Eeekster, but they ignored me.

Users involved

Who is involved in the dispute?

Lynnbwilsoniii (talk · contribs)
Eeekster (talk · contribs)

Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Http://en.wikipedia.org/WIND (spacecraft)}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I tried to explain why it was absurd to flag these files to Eeekster already on their talk page, but they ignored me and continued to flag the files.

How do you think we can help?

Stop flagging files that have absolutely nothing in them that could be considered copyright material and release these files.

Lynnbwilsoniii (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

WIND (spacecraft) discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

I did nothing more that list the file for discussion due to the copyright tag you used (claim that it was your own work and that you own the rights). The file was delete because your claim was never defended. Your other uploads have the same issue. Eeekster (talk) 22:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

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