Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:58, 2 April 2012

2 April 2012

Jim Hawkins (radio presenter)

Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

There is a body of opinion that the AfD discussion did not reach a clear consensus, that the subject of this BLP is not a public figure (he is a local radio broadcaster with an audience reach of less than 50,000), and that as he has requested deletion then WP:BIODELETE applies. There has been discussion with the closer, who has indicated acceptance of a DRV. It is worth noting that a significant number of the keep comments were not based on notability or policy, but on the principle that it is up to Misplaced Pages to decide who has a Misplaced Pages article rather than the subject of the article. There is an uncomfortable sense of WP:Point about such comments that should have been taken into consideration. The subject's notability appears to run on a scale from non-notable to borderline, so assertions of "clear notability" need to balanced against arguments that notability is not supported by evidence (there is only one cite for significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, and that is a local paper). A steady reading of the discussion and the circumstances should lead to either a close for Delete or No Consensus leading to deletion by BIODELETE. SilkTork 16:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing much wrong with the current version of article, but Pigsonthewing should now have a formal topic ban after adding where Jim Hawkins lives to the article, despite being personally asked by Jimbo to steer clear. I really can't fathom why this is such an issue for Pigs, who is risking damaging the whole BLP system by doing this. While I agree that Jim Hawkins has marginal notability, my decision is Keep and a topic ban for Pigs. Enough has been said about this already.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• You made me look at what Andy has added to the article expecting an identifyable address to be given. For a local radio presenter coming from elsewhere to state that he lives in the county that he broadcasts for is while not exactly needed (although of interest to the locals ie "he is one of us now") but also not not damaging or even stalking. Given the size on Shopshire I'd venture a guess that no-one would start a house to house search through the county on the basis of the article. There is more chance of running into him accidentially (waving to Gina Jones) Agathoclea (talk) 18:33, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It is no great surprise to learn the name of the county where Jim Hawkins lives. The real problem is that Pigsonthewing has now set off a fresh round of thrown handbags and toys at Talk:Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) which is only going to annoy Jim Hawkins even more when he reads it. Let's be honest, Pigs has been the main source of trouble for this article, and he has violated WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT once too often.--♦IanMacM♦ 18:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse This presenter was clearly notable as they were a national radio host previously. The continued statement that they are a local radio host of a small listening area is a case of ignoring that notability is not temporary. This was a valid close. -DJSasso (talk) 17:20, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. This close does not "strike me as wrong with the force of a five-week-old, unrefrigerated, dead fish". T. Canens (talk) 17:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. It was a good close. It doesn't matter if you think some of the keep votes were wrong-headed. The closer correctly identified the nub of the issue. For BIODELETE to kick in, the subject has to be a "non-public figure" and, although some claimed this to be the case, it was reasonable of the closer to say that there was no consensus to that effect. Deleting for failing GNG is a separate question and it should be obvious to anyone that there was no consensus in that case. There is no flaw in the reasoning. FormerIP (talk) 18:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse Closer personally would not have wanted the article to stay but could see a policy based consensu not to delete on blpbio grounds. Certainly the discussion went that way and was clearly based on policy. Reasons to delete where usually accompanied with comments like - "it should be policy" or "he is notable, but". Good call. A LOUD minority makes no consensus. Agathoclea (talk) 18:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn

• I count the 11 above as taking more of an interest in preserving the Misplaced Pages's right to keep a biography of anyone, anywhere, and anytime than in taking an honest measure of Jim Hawkins' notability. Discard these and 2 WP:SPA votes and IMO we're at a consensus to delete per WP:BLPDELETE. Tarc (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Surely it would have been better to let them speak for themselves here. I assume you have notified them you are using their names in this manner. DGG ( talk ) 18:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• No, and no intention of doing so. I have a long-standing position that those interested in XfDs and related discussions can take care of themselves, and do not make use of notifiers except when explicitly requested, i.e. ANI. Tarc (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC) Tarc (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• (ec)Not only does Tarc not speak for me; but I object to the way (s)he misrepresents my views. My comment in the AfD began "Keep. Subject is clearly notable". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I initially read this, wrongly, as eleven names !voting "overturn". Closing admin please take care. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I have added a collapsible hat around the names to avoid confusion. Tarc (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• You have entirely misrepresented me and I request that you remove me from that list. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse Good Close The AfD proposal was never one of a lack of notability though acknowledging that the notability was limited was done by both camps. The Closer summed this up and despite suggesting a close of delete would be the better choice, acknowledged that the policy based arguments for a keep were stronger and had to follow the consensus for that. As the closer suggested - an RfC on the pertinent policy would have better chance of success than further AfDs/DRs. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. Clearly meets notability criteria. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse -- these discussions usually turn on whether the close was a reasonable decision in light of deletion policy, a reasonable exercise of the admin's discretion. This is plainly what we have here. Even if one thinks that WP:BIODEL applies here, that passage only says that no-consensus AfDs of non-public figures may be closed as delete, not must be closed as delete. Usually when an admin closes an AfD with a remark that says "it's not how I would have voted myself, but...", this is taken as a sign of integrity -- and so it should be here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

You people are weird. I've just sent this email to whoever 'Wifione' is -

Who are these so-called 'editors'? Why should the people who've been stalking, bullying and harassing me - and have been doing so again today! - have any say in what happens to the article?

Hooray for policies. Does common human decency come into this anywhere? Or am I going to get the same response I've had for five years, the borderline-fundamentalist 'that's not how Misplaced Pages works'?

My capacity to work has been affected by the psychological strain this is putting on me. You people are making me ill, and compromising my ability to work. Tell me how you feel about that.

And: would you have reached the same conclusion about the article had you had to put your real name to it? What possible 'sensitive issues' can Misplaced Pages have?

j

Johnny Sandelson

Johnny Sandelson (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

The article was deleted by HJ Mitchell. I've left a message, without response, to see if we can resolve the deletion. The referenced content should be reviewed to see if the article can be reinstated, or assess whether the content can be used elsewhere. Vjdigital (talk) 13:57, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Another Bell Pottinger employee seeking to get promotional content restored. There is no bar on recreation by someone without a COI so why don't we leave it at that. Thanks. Spartaz 14:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)
• Restore Invalid G11 speedy. The criterion for G11 is "Pages that are exclusively promotional, and would need to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic. " . This is promotional in intent, but the content is not entirely promotional, and it would not have to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic . We have no rule that says Paid articles may be speedily deleted. The admin acted as if we did, and the matter really should go to arb com, because he surely must know that, and a deletion like this is attempting to pre-empt the current discussions of paid editing. If anyone thinks the result is too promotional, they are free to rewrite it, even to the extent of removing all the content and starting over. The editor was blocked as a sock puppet on 6 December 2011, as was right, but the article was written before the block. The puppetmaster was blocked on 8 Dec 2011. Perhaps we should have a rule that anyone detected in sockpuppetry will have all their previous contributions deleted, but we do not have one nor do I think there would be consensus for it, as there would be too much collateral damage (from initially good editors who later turned to socking). We do not wield Balefire, which erases all earlier traces of the target from our universe. DGG ( talk ) 18:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. The G11 deletion was made in good faith as the page is exclusively promotional. The article is peppered with weasel words, puffery and superlatives, with an apparent attempt to maximize SEO keyword density. Claims regarding investment returns are misleading and the article would indeed have to be entirely rewritten. No one is preventing the recreation of a neutral version of this article. Gobōnobo 19:19, 2 April 2012 (UTC)