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Miscellaneous

Introduction

Article has "Easter marks the end of Lent". That is very badly put. Easter marks the Crucifixion and nothing else, and Lent is a mere preamble. Subsection "Western Christianity" likewise.

I suggest replacing "Easter marks the end of Lent, a forty-day period of fasting, prayer, and penance. The last week of the Lent" with "Lent, a forty-day period of fasting, prayer, and penance, precedes Easter. The last week of Lent" (that last "the" was ungrammatical in English). Note that Lent starts 46 days before Easter Sunday. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree that this is not well expressed and have amended both lede and the subsection to say "Easter is preceded by Lent, ...". With respect to the 40 days vs 46 days: the six Sundays in Lent are not counted in the 40-day period. This is because Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

"(even though the equinox occurs, astronomically speaking, on March 20 in most years)" - that cannot be generally true, as the Equinox in American Samoa is now always a day later, on the local calendar, than it is in Samoa proper. Currently, using GMT, March 20 is commonest; but to get reasonably a correct mean date one must average over the whole 400 years of the Gregorian secular calendar repeat cycle. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this is worth worrying about. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Reform of the date

Re the last two paragraphs : It would be better, I think, to choose the Sunday of ISO 8601 Week 15. That gives a similar range of dates to those already in the paragraphs. For businesses using ISO Week Numbering (world-wide, a considerable proportion) it gives fixed dates for the Easter holidays). 94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Missing history

From looking at the supposed consensus, this is a battle that will need to be fought, and once won, guarded against. Subjects like this are far too vulnerable to cries of religious tolerance and "sensitivities", which the religious will trot out to try to defend their claimed high ground. Christians employ many tactics of obfuscation to try to paper over the cracks in their dogma - WP is no place for it. We should not allow them to shout down the relevant, sourced, and neutral history that is applicable.

Additionally Easter is no longer principally a Christian holiday in much of the English speaking world, and the secular side of it must eventually be brought to equal footing in this article. The Easter bunny and chocolate eggs are of far more interest to many children who will eagerly type "easter" into Google: let's not let WP be a tool of Christian indoctrination. All the ecclesiastical info must by all means remain, but it must be pulled back into line with the other side of the coin. Please, no deflection mentioning the disambiguation pages: the other articles are completely inadequate as they are titled and organized. This is the "Easter" article.

I encourage all editors to follow their sentiments to the degree they agree with the above. The religious will howl and edit war to the best of their abilities, but I urge you to be confident to fight that fight. You will find the sources, references, and facts are with you.

bad·monkey _{talk to the {:()} :: 07:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead then, what do you think needs inserting into the article? -Ben (talk) 13:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Judging from the article's history and the topic's obvious risk of controversy, I think it would be best to build some consensus first. bad·monkey _{talk to the {:()} :: 06:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

While that was rather rudely put, I agree with badmonkey. While the Christian Easter (i.e., that recorded in the Bible) is indeed spiritual, the Easter that the average American (I can't speak for other countries) does have some pagan elements, albeit not explicitly. Most celebrators of Easter don't view eggs as a symbol of Ishtar or whatever (I'm a Christian myself, so forgive me if I got that wrong), the symbolism of eggs---and many other things--at Easter precedes Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.58.9.64 (talk) 14:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the use eggs at Easter is of pagan origin. Eggs are rather obvious as a symbol of new life, and many cultures have arrived at them as a symbol independently. 207.237.211.236 (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

This applies to all English speaking cultures. America is without doubt the most religious of all English countries now.

I would suggest a distinction between "pagan" and "secular". The former is vaguely deprecatory, while it does apply obviously to pre-Christian history. Modern day culture such as the Bunny and eggs is the "secular" side of Easter.

bad·monkey _{talk to the {:()} :: 06:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

This is nowhere near as cut-and-dry of an issue as it might appear to be; holidays are constantly evolving and changing their meaning and are thus extremely difficult and controversial to define... but as Wikipedians all we can do is go by what reliable sources indicate, not by what we as individuals might feel Easter represents in the 21st century. Go see the Talk:Christmas discussion from last fall just to get an idea of how much argumentation and consensus-building it takes for the community to even attempt building some sort of agreeable introduction alone. Easter is actually a much more difficult subject to tackle than Christmas. For Christmas, we have plenty of reputable sources indicating that non-Christians are increasingly celebrating Christmas. Christmas, like the Christian calendar, seems to be an aspect of Christian (and preceding Roman/Norse/other European pagan religious) culture that is spreading worldwide. Innumerable Non-Christian Japanese and Indians celebrate Christmas, but very few or none of those populations celebrate Easter.

The whole matter is all so convoluted, as Easter is named for a month that was named for a pagan goddess, but is today more "religiously Christian" than Christmas, which is named for Christ's Mass. It's the opposite of what you'd hope to expect, but alas that's the way of our culture and history. Misplaced Pages's current set up has Easter's purported namesake Eostre at its own article (which is mentioned and linked to as a hatnote here), and this article describes the Christian festival. That leaves us with arguably pagan-originating secular aspects of Easter like bunnies, chocolate, etc. Even without looking to sources, I think we can all agree that the secular side of Easter is of far less cultural importance than the secular side of Christmas. That brings WP:UNDUE into the situation. I think our current introductory paragraphs perfectly represent reliable sources' consensus on the definition of Easter. Go find me any reliable source that defines Easter primarily as anything other than a Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, then we can talk about incorporating that into the forefront of the introduction. Our current intro. with the secular elements acknowledged in the last paragraph is fine as it is. Granted you have no objection to my conclusions on the introduction, what are some suggestions for change in the body of the article that you want to bring to the table? — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 06:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Can we have some method measuring whether something is "principally" a Christian holiday? Personally, I don't know ANY Jewish families that celebrate Easter. That seems odd if it's principally a secular holiday. And should we also do that with pretty much every holiday in existence on the grounds that some people have a different take on it? Should we treat Purim as a non-religious holiday because some Jewish children think of it as an opportunity to play dress up? Since some organizations use the 4th of July as an opportunity to criticize the United States, should the Independence Day article give equal weight to its being an "anti-patriotic" holiday? Or act as though the fireworks have nothing to do with a celebration of the American revolution?

No offense, dude, but you wanting to eat chocolate even though you hate religion doesn't make a religious holiday secular. 207.237.211.236 (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, the claim of bias comes from an objective person, I see.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.211.236 (talk • contribs)

I see nothing wrong with the 'bias'

I nearly laughed when I read that this page may have "a strong bias in favor of Christianity." It's a page about Easter! A day of the year marking the belief that Jesus rose from the dead is in itself biased in favor of Christianity. My fear here is that the people who tagged the page may themselves be biased against Christianity in such a way that the Easter page, if they had their way, would be full of nonsensical and fringe viewpoints about the most important Christian day of the year. KBurchfiel (talk) 22:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The perception of bias is understandable, though. There are widely held views, whether right or wrong, that Easter was originally a non-Christian celebration that got co-opted and adapted to Christianity as it spread. Lunar-based spring-time celebrations around the time of Easter pre-dated Christianity, after all. Those who hold the viewpoint that Easter is simply an evolution of a more ancient celebration might consider a Christianity-centric article on the subject to be biased. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

See my comment above for my view on the matter. I've reshifted some things around and added old material to /Archive6 to lessen confusion about the current objection by User:badmonkey. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 23:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen a theory of Easter being originally a non-Christian celebration that wasn't conspiracy stuff, usually based on false information and not taken seriously by scholars. This objection isn't about a goddess named "Eostre," I hope? 207.237.211.236 (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

As I wrote above, such celebrations pre-dated Christianity. Therein lies the perception of bias, which is understandable even without resorting to conspiracy theories. For instance, it's hardly a conspiracy that folks would adapt an existing custom to a spreading religion and call it "Easter". It's also understandable that the Church might approve such adaptations as a means to increase the Church's influence; again, not a conspiracy, just strategy. Right or wrong, the bias perceived by some isn't likely to go away unless the article devotes a few sentences to such celebrations in general, rather than focusing only on the earliest known Christian celebrations. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

However, there is no evidence of any celebrations of a goddess named "Eostre" - just the name of a month. And the holiday wasn't called "Easter" until it had been in existence for about 600 years, and then only in English or Germanic speaking lands. Almost the whole world calls it "Pascha" (or some cognate) not "Easter." It didn't originate in England or Germany. Carlo (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

No evidence? Have you actually read the Ēostre article? The point of those who perceive bias, I think, is the implication that the Easter celebration was invented out of thin air by Christians when it actually has roots that pre-date Christianity. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I think he is saying there's no evidence for a particular celebration (i.e. holiday) celebrating Eostre that Easter was in turn directly based on or continued from. As far as evidence goes, it at best only suggests that Easter was named for the Anglo-Saxon month Eosturmonath that was in turn named for the goddess Eostre. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 17:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Also the fact that the word "Easter" for the holiday doesn't appear until centuries after the holiday itself was established. It's a Germanic word and (possibly) a Celtic goddess. Pascha did not originate in England or Germany. The Quartodecimans were arguing about the date of Easter in the second century, in Rome and Turkey. Carlo (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I need to point out that Eostre is Old English, and that both Old English and modern English are Germanic languages, not Celtic languages. As for the goddess for which the month was described and wherefrom both English Easter and German Ostern descend, major Indo-Europeanists generally view the name as a simple extension of a Proto-Germanic dawn goddess that in turn descends from a Proto-Indo-European dawn goddess. Of all of the PIE deities, this dawn goddess is currently the most reconstructable. Indeed, it would appear that the holiday has evident, deep pre-Christian roots in Germanic Europe. As discussed before, there are therefore three "Easters" in the modern Anglosphere; the historical, indigenous Germanic polytheistic events involving the goddess Eostre during Eostre-month, the Christian holiday layered on top of it (and influenced by the heathen event), and, finally, the modern secular event, likely influenced by both (eggs, hares, etc.). :bloodofox: (talk) 18:19, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

But again: The ONLY mention of a goddess named "Eostre" is Bede, and Christian Feast of the Resurrection was not called that until the Feast had existed for 600 years, and it is still only called that in English and German speaking countries. And even Bede does not say that the holiday was named for the goddess, but for the month that it fell in. Arguments about the date of Easter appear in the second century, and have nothing to do with "Eostre." Carlo (talk) 18:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like I need to quote Bede. Here goes (my bold):

"Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance." (Wallis 1999)

Bede outright says that they just took the name from the month wherein celebrations of Eostre were held; i.e. they took the element containing her name from Eustormonath; i.e. "Month of Eostre". They were obviously aware of this fact, perhaps pointing to initial syncretism or some element of the Christianization strategy. Whatever the case, writing only in all caps doesn't matter; by way of historical linguistics, the goddess would have been reconstructed in Old English even without Bede's attestations—there's plentiful evidence in other Indo-European branches from Vedic Sanskrit to Archaic Greek to Lithuanian. It just so happens that we have Bede to confirm the Germanic branch of the PIE goddess during the Old English period. Further, this article is about Easter, not specifically the Christian holiday, but all of the things that make up the history and events of this day in the modern Anglosphere; i.e. where the term Easter is used. As a result, Easter was only a Christian holiday (to the extent that one could say it is a Christian holiday) upon its arrival in Germanic Europe. Keep in mind that the Proto-Indo-Europeans are generally held to have entered Europe in the middle to late Neolithic. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Bloodofox, you usually have no brief for conspiracy theories, so I'm a bit confused here. Apart from whether or not it's OR, I'm sincerely curious: how does your theory account for observance of Easter in Mediterranean Christianity before Augustine of Canterbury? Are you arguing that, independent of the Germanic Eostre, a PIE dawn goddess festival was the substrate for Pascha in the early church? In Alexandria and Jerusalem as well as Rome and Constantinople? How do you account for the etymology of "pascha"? I'm not asking to poke fun at you--though of course the temptation is there--but most of the pagan-origin theories of Easter assert continuity between Pascha and some Semitic goddess like Asherah or (Egyptian) Isis. I haven't heard your version before. What gives? -Ben (talk) 00:28, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Ben, you seem to have misunderstood something I've said; I'm talking about Germanic Europe and the importation of Pascha into the region and the merging of Eostre-month with Pascha, not the introduction of Pascha into Southern Europe. Sure, it's possible that, like the Germanic peoples, other Indo-European peoples had similarly seasonal Dawn Goddess events comparable to Eostre-month at some point held around the same time, but I have not read any survey on that, and thus am not able to comment further on it. Of course, neither Eostre nor Easter have anything to do with Near Eastern goddesses such as Isis or Astarte, a notion stemming from anti-Catholic 19th century works by Alexander Hislop. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification -- I'll read your comment more carefully, but I think we're on the same page again. -Ben (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

This is absolutely a digression, but have you read Gregory's Epistola ad Mellitum, which is also quoted in Bede? It's quite explicit about the approach to be taken regarding syncretizing with Anglo-Saxon paganism. Ben (talk) 11:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I have, yep. One could argue that essentially the same thing happened with Yule-Christmas that happened with Easter-Pascha; the heavy synthesis survives to this day. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This is one of craziest articles on Misplaced Pages. This is an article, supposedly about Easter, in which Easter, as most normal people define it, is not even mentioned at all, and when I say not mentioned, I mean literally not even mentioned at all. I was in high school, the very first time I ever heard of the idea that there was some connection between Easter and Christianity. I remember sitting on the couch, talking to my mom, and I was saying, "You know, there is a Christian aspect to Christmas but there is no Christian aspect to Easter", and that when my mom told me that Christians say that Easter was when Jesus was killed and magically came back to life after he was dead. I'm sure most people living in the United States are unaware that the holiday has anything to do with Jesus. If you look at Christmas decorations, you see pictures of the baby Jesus but if you look at Easter decorations, you never see any picture of the dead adult Jesus hanging on a cross. Easter is a huge holiday in the United States. You entire week off from school. There's no holiday other than Christmas and Easter where you get a week off from school. People take their kids to the mall to have their picture taken with the Easter Bunny. Nobody takes their kid to the mall on Thanksgiving to have their picture taken with a guy wearing a pilgrim costume, or on Valentine's Day to have their picture taken with a guy wearing a cupid costume, or on St. Patrick's Day, to have their picture taken with a guy wearing a leprechaun costume. Easter is the only holiday other Christmas for which there are Rankin & Bass specials. Notice also that some of the Rankin & Bass Christmas specials mention Jesus but there is no Rankin and Bass Easter special that mentions the dead adult Jesus. Easter is a huge holiday in the United States, but Easter, as normal people define it, is not mentioned in this article. I remember when I was a kids coloring the eggs. I remember the smell of the vinegar. I would hold the egg half way in one color and then hold the other half in the other color to create an egg with two colors. Also, sometime we would put cooking oil in a pan and mix it with food coloring, and roll eggs around in it to create splotched designs on the egg. I remember in first grade creating a hollow egg by blowing out the inside of the egg, and we put bunny ears and put a face on the egg. I remember leaving out the eggs the night before Easter, and then in the morning running to the kitchen, and the eggs would be gone, and we would get Easter baskets, with large chocolate rabbits. We would hunt for eggs in our living room. We would exchange gifts, and we would hide the gifts for the other family members who would have to hunt for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jefferywinkler (talk • contribs) 20:39, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

"I'm sure most people living in the United States are unaware that the holiday has anything to do with Jesus." Uhhh...no. You're just more ignorant than most people. Carlo (talk) 22:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Your first and only contribution is this rant post? I really hope you're not a sockpuppet of another user involved in this discussion... — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 22:35, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The reason for this rant post is outrage over the fact that despite the fact that Easter is the second biggest holiday in the United States, Easter, as celebrated by 90% of Americans, is not even mentioned anywhere in the Misplaced Pages article on Easter. Just for an indication of what most people think Easter is, just look at the Pinterest entries on Easter.

http://pinterest.com/search/?q=Easter

The problem is religious people have hijacked this article, and they are oblivious to the fact that they represent a tiny sliver of the population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jefferywinkler (talk • contribs) 23:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Isn't "hijacked" a bit of a strong term for an article that devoted 90% of its content to the (mostly religious) history and (mostly religious) practice of Easter ten years ago? -Ben (talk) 00:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Full moon question

The reference full moon is incorrect. At this time of the year around the middle east they have the new moon. Check it out with Misplaced Pages the definitions of both. Not sure if this changes timings etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.50.30.133 (talk) 07:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The full moon reference is correct. A full moon is only 14 days after a new moon regardless of longitude. So, yes, there is new moon at about the same time of year as the Easter full moon. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 08:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Ishtar not debunked here

Why don't we mention the claimed Ishtar connection? We know that it's false, but it's sufficiently old and well known that it really needs to be mentioned here with proof of its falsehood. Nyttend (talk) 14:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I have yet to see a recent scholarly work even mentioning this, but if we could find one it would be helpful. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Repeated Removal of Ēostre Explanation from the Lead

Alright, exactly why is the summary of the etymology section being repeatedly reverted from the lead? There's already a pretty strong claim of bias here on the talk page, and this is doing nothing but making that bias particularly clear. This holiday has a significant history that far predates its Christianization, and attempting to sweep it under the rug is simply unacceptable. All of the article sections need to be summarized in the lead, and that includes the English name of the event; an unqualified link without explanation reeks of censorship. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Alright, now a red-named user has removed the references citing both the Anglo-Saxon pagan veneration of Ēostre during this month and the academic reference explicitly stating Germanic Neopagans venerating Ēostre on modern Easter. I'm also out of reverts. Seriously, is there anyone out there not content with censoring anything that isn't Christian in this article? Note also the almost total lack of mention of secular celebration of the holiday. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What you'd added to the third intro paragraph was undue weight for etymology, which is sufficiently covered by the Old English template reference at the very beginning of the article. Now what you are adding to the infobox is incorrect information, as "Easter" is a modern English term that developed entirely independent of any Germanic pagan influence or celebration. We are delving into semantics here; what the Anglo-Saxon pagans celebrated in honor of Eostre was not called "Easter". — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 19:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No, an internal link without any explanation dropped next to article title explains nothing. You are intentionally attempting to keep a summary of the etymology section out. And, again, quite flatly, the references make it clear that modern Christian Easter descends from Anglo-Saxon pagan Eostre, and is continued by certain Germanic Neopagan groups. The scent of censorship in this room just went to a heavy stench. Note also the almost complete and total ignoring of all things secular in this article—for many people Easter is an egg hunt, a basket, and a chocolate bunny. I guess that's not Easter either? :bloodofox: (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Please try to assume a little good faith here, I have no wish to "censor" anything regarding the secular or pagan elements of Easter, in fact I added secular content the other day. The internal link at the beginning of the article links to the article for Eostre, which is perfectly sufficient and prominent. I'd be fine with elaborating to a degree within those parentheses about the connection to the goddess or to Eostur-monath. I am not trying to keep anything about etymology out of the article at all, I merely view your additions to the introductory paragraph as giving undue weight to one particular aspect of the English term's etymology. To your second point: whether the modern "Christian Easter" descends from the Anglo-Saxon pagan Eostur-monath celebrations is irrelevant to the fact that the specific word "Easter" is a modern English term that is defined in all reliable sources as the Christian celebration of the resurrection only. The sources you provide do not indicate that Easter is/was celebrated by pagans or neopagans, just that a celebration of the goddess Eostre is/was. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 19:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The internal link placement makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't say if it derives from it, it doesn't say what relation it has, it's simply there. It's simply next to the title with brackets around it. And here you say that "you'd be fine with elaborating to a degree within those parentheses", yet you've wholesale repeatedly removed my additions doing exactly that. If you want assumption of good faith, you could have simply reduced the addition. This article covers Easter, including its history, and attempts to block the telling thereof is justifiably viewed as censorship. The sources I've added do exactly that; they show the roots of the holiday's name and likely various elements thereof (similarly to the current Yule-Christmas situation in the Anglosphere), and it is also notable to this article that celebration that was Christianized during Christianization has been revived. Further, we have basically nothing on this article about the secular aspect of the event, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, and everything to do with bunnies, eggs, baskets, and selling candy. Exactly why is this? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The internal link placement makes perfect sense, it's how etymology is referenced in the introductions of most Misplaced Pages articles, which is then elaborated in the Etymology section if there is one. I am fine with elaborating within the parentheses, for example (Old English: Ēostre, a Germanic pagan goddess), but I feel that the elaboration you'd done in the third paragraph was undue. You say that the "celebration that was Christianized has been revived", do you have reliable sources that cite the term Easter as being the notable name for the neopagan celebrations? While neopagans may have revived the pagan vernal equinox celebrations, they do not call these celebrations "Easter". As for the modern secular commercial aspects, they are mentioned in the closing introductory paragraph, and in the section "Easter celebrations around the world". If you wish to elaborate on these commercial aspects or have ideas on how to do so, please present them. But we must be sure to maintain balance and NPOV, and the fact remains that the primary definition of Easter per notable sources is the Christian celebration of the resurrection. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 20:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This gets more and more ridiculous. This is not how things are usually handled on Misplaced Pages, and etymologies that require summarized explanations in the lead, like anything else, are explained. And, as I've now said a few times on this thread, I have indeed provided (and attempted to add to the article) an academic source discussing that Eostre and thus, obviously, a re-paganized Easter (simple the modern English form of Eostre (!), -monath or not) have come to be venerated once again by some Germanic Neopagans, a fact notable to this article given its history any way you slice it; i.e. Paschal season absorbed Eostre, yet heathen Eostre has been resurrected. But apparently we can't have this, as it's not about Jesus? Is there no one out there watching who recognizes a secular aspect to modern Easter and a history to Easter/Eostre prior to its absorption by Christian paschal month? I guess this is the downside to editing some of these articles; one may sometimes find themselves surrounded and ganged up on by ideologues who will snuff out any attempts at bringing the article into any sort of logical order over their preferred ideology. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Keep discussion to the subject matter, stop making unsubstantiated personal accusations about what you perceive other editors' intentions, biases or motives as being. I've provided justification for my position and expressed clearly to you with evidence that I fully understand the secular and pagan historical and modern aspects of Easter, and that I am not trying to "censor" anything from this article. This discussion is clearly getting out of hand and I think an RFC is in order, I will request one shortly. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 22:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, but I have the right to call ideologic bias when I see it; both yourself and Jordanson have made it clear that you will now allow the addition of non-Christian material to the article, responding with reversions and excuses. A Jesus-only agenda does not reflect the reality of the history and/or celebration of modern Easter, and this article will not withstand that approach over time. A real solution would be to get a series of academic works together to rewrite large portions of this poor quality article. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

See Godwin's law as it applies to the 'censorship'. The first mention wins a prize. Span (talk) 19:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Ctrl (or command) + f "abuse" in the same article. When a section summary is denied and bias is evidently the only given reason (as there exists no summary as is), censorship is a perfectly valid claim. In the future, you would do well to start a conversation with me without the drive-by snide remark, thanks. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I removed it because "Easter" and the native Anglo-Saxon celebration are not the same thing, and contemporary pagans definitely do not celebrate the Christian commemoration of their messiah rising from the dead. Which is what "Easter" is defined as in the lede. The Christian Easter (Pascha) is attested long before Baeda's work, and is not "descended" from the traditional English/Germanic celebration. Jordanson72 (talk) 19:45, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be ignorant of the history of Paschal season in Germanic Europe. Eostre-month predates the event in at least among the West Germanic peoples, and, indeed, the goddess descends from at least the late to middle Neolithic. I suggest you read both the etymology section here and the Ēostre article. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Easter, which is defined in the lede and elsewhere as the Christian commemoration of Jesus' supposed rise from the dead, is attested before the Eostre-month. To claim that Easter and the Eostre-month are the same thing is inaccurate. Whatever the prechristian Germanic Europeans celebrated, it wasn't Easter as described here. Unless you wish to redefine it. Jordanson72 (talk) 19:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

You are now speaking total nonsense. The paschal season extends from Southern Europe during Christianization, whereas Eostre-month and Eostre existed well previous. What is now Easter simply took its name, and likely various other elements, from the pre-Christian Germanic event. In English speaking areas and likely also German, the two became synthesized, and therefore are connected; Easter encompasses both. Again, I direct you to the same places I did before. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd been to those places before your suggestion, and the Ēostre-month is not attested until Baeda makes reference to it. The Christian commemoration of Jesus' resurrection, which is what Easter is defined as, predates this. The prechristian Anglo-Saxons and modern pagans do not commemorate Jesus' resurrection, period. If you want to work against established definitions, fine, but don't be surprised if you encounter resistance. Jordanson72 (talk) 20:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

So, you're claiming that Easter has no history prior to Christianization? Or that said history deserves no mention or has nothing to do with this article? Who needs history anyway, right? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Easter is defined as the Christian festival that commemorates Jesus' rising from the dead as written in their holy book. This celebration is attested early in Christian history. In England, it became known as, among other things, Ēostre, which originally referred to a native goddess. According to Baeda, the Anglo-Saxons honored this lady during the Ēostre-month, but this had apparently stopped being the case by the time he was referencing it. Which wraps up the history lesson nicely. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask. Jordanson72 (talk) 20:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Please refrain from the sassy bullshit—if you're going to waste my time, you may as well do so with the pretense of maturity. I'm obviously aware, as I am the primary author of not only our etymology section here, but also the Eostre article. Again, you're dancing around the question; are you attempting to claim that Eostre is not related and thus deserves no mention here, and therefore the Neopagan veneration does not? If so—and that certainly seems to be what you're saying—that's flatly ridiculous. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It's amusing to see you talk about sassy bullshit after you've accused me of talking "total nonsense" and called me "ignorant". There's that "rigid support" for WP:CIV coming into play once again. And I did not dance around the question: the prechristian Anglo-Saxons and contemporary pagans do not celebrate Easter. Hence, information relating to their celebrations regarding the OE goddess Ēostre should be located at Ēostre. Easter is well defined. You don't like that definition, which is absolutely fine. Unfortunately we can't tailor an encyclopedia to what you favor or disfavor. Jordanson72 (talk) 22:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Telling another user that they need to brush up on their material—otherwise known as ignorance—is hardly an insult but an observation. Further, I've been perfectly civil with you until you decided to take a parroting approach. Easter simply isn't a matter of Jesus, but also encompasses secular aspects such as chocolate rabbits, baskets, egg hunts, and, yes, a pre-Christian Old English past. Easter is simply the modern English form of Old English Eostre, obviously—a term flatly derived from the name of an Old English goddess. All of these things make up what is now Easter; attempting to sweep these things under the carpet and restrict this article to Christian only related materials is ridiculous and extremely biased. Let's be clear here; you're arguing that this article must be Christian only. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I expected something like that. "I called you ignorant because I just want you to learn more!" Awesome. Moving on from your inability to adhere to your apparently "rigid" support for civil discussion, I actually had to tone down the Christian bias that existed in the article's very opening sentence, a bias that somehow escaped everyone's notice. I'm all for including the secular aspects of modern Easter celebration like chocolate/decorated eggs and rabbits and so on, but your claim is that the prechristian Anglo-Saxons and contemporary pagans celebrate(d) Easter, which is consistently and clearly defined as a Christian festival commemorating the supposed resurrection of Jesus. You are arguing against reliable sources and definitions, linking the English name of an early Christian feast to the celebrations of the prechristian and contemporary pagans in a way that suggests that they "commemorate" or "celebrate" Easter. That is synthesis. They didn't/don't celebrate Easter. They did/do honor Ēostre, who lends her name to the Christian feast in the English language, but they do not celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. You don't like the definition that most of the world adheres to. Shame. But deal with it without the accusations that "ideologues" are "ganging up" on you. Jordanson72 (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This response is a smoke screen as there still exists extreme bias here, which you're supporting. Obviously, modern English Easter is simply a modern version of Old English Eostre, which is exactly what it was called in Old English. Yes, even after Christianization, derived from the pagan goddess name; it wasn't suddenly Easter. Again, Old English Christian Easter = Eostre, Old English goddess name = Eostre. Same nouns. What would the goddess name be in modern English? Easter. There is no escaping this fact; the two are deeply connected, and there's a significant blur. Again, this is not a cut and dry Jesus-only holiday; Eostre lurks in its past, and even now some Germanic Neopagan sects have revived veneration in its namesake goddess—which I have provided a solid academic reference for. Then there's the matter of the completely secular Easter that has zero to do with Jesus but everything to do with bunnies and chocolate. Finally, I couldn't be bothered if you "want to learn more"—I'm far more interested in correcting Misplaced Pages articles than I am you. I tend to view talk page exchanges like this as little more than a speed bump in getting the articles in order; it can be a messy process, but it eventually happens. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

It's not a smoke screen. I'm sticking to the definition of "Easter" and pointing out accurately which groups don't come under that definition. That's about as far away from a smoke screen as it gets. Your synthesis, while amusing (for a while), has no place in an encyclopedia. If you're not going to prove that the prechristian Anglo-Saxons and contemporary pagans celebrate(d) Easter as defined by reliable sources then you don't have anything more to contribute. Sh** or get off the pot already. That the English name for the ancient Christian feast is derived from the name of a native goddess does not demonstrate a link between that feast and the celebrations of those who worshiped that goddess. That information should be at Eostre, because venerating the OE goddess Eostre and celebrating Easter as defined by reliable sources are two different things. It is nobody else's fault that you can't see your own synthesis at work, and those that can see it are not necessarily ideologues. Jordanson72 (talk) 03:03, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Scratch that, brother (or sister)! I have seen the error of my ways, and I apologize for any tears you may have shed on my part—I am now your ally in the fight for a Jesus-only-Misplaced Pages-Easter-entry! Let us keep the scourge at bay together; see my plan below! :bloodofox: (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment regarding NPOV, UNDUE, NOR, IRS and possibly other issues relating to balance of Christian/pagan/secular elements of holiday

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Debate and disagreement regarding Christian/pagan/secular issues relating the subject cannot be resolved and the community at large is asked to please contribute to discussion. — FoxCE (talk • contribs) 22:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This article has shown a long pattern of rejecting material not specifically handling Jesus or Christianity. Note that it almost entirely avoids any mention of secular Easter in favor of a strictly Christian interpretation. Users policing the holiday have recently rejected a cited, scholarly reference to the revival of veneration of Ēostre among some Germanic neopagan groups. Let's be clear: Ēostre, Paschal season (which combined with Ēostre-month to produce Old English Christian Ēostre—yes, the same noun as the goddess name—leading to a series of linguistic changes that became modern Easter), and modern secular celebrations are what make up modern Easter, it is not solely a Christian celebration with no earlier history. Indeed, it appears that this desire to keep this article solely about the Christian event is not unintentional, as the talk page makes clear, and a summary of the etymology section that I've tried to add to the lead has been repeatedly reverted (with the reasoning that an unqualified internal link is enough). I suspect a strong ideologic bias at work here. Again, for many Easter consists of little more than chocolate rabbits, grassy baskets, and an egg hunt. This article does not reflect this reality. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Wait, wait, scratch that! Because I've also gotten the nothing-but-Jesus-in-my-Misplaced Pages-Easter-article fever too! But between you and me there's some stuff we should be concerned about, so keep this stuff under wraps, will you? Well, see, there's these articles on Easter-related customs from Watts's Encyclopedia of American Folklore discussing those cursed secular components of Easter with some comments about pre-Christian origins of certain customs, which we have thus far fortunately managed to nearly completely bar from the article:

• Watts, Linda S. (2007). Encyclopedia of American Folklore. Infobase Publishing.

Here is another reliable source discussing the wretched fact that Easter is actually a dualistic holiday celebrated by both Christians and the secular; " is also a secular event in which the children of Christian and non-Christian families participate in Easter egg hunts and receive baskets of candy from the Easter Bunny. Often, non-Christians also spend the day with their family by sharing a meal."

The source then goes on to discuss the Easter Bunny and Easter egg hunt, argh! Curse those pesky non-Christian customs sneaking up on our Jesus-filled Misplaced Pages article!

• Duchak, Alicia (1999). A-Z of Modern America. Psychology Press.

And wouldn't you know it! Those damned pagans are at it again, reviving filthy veneration in that pesky goddess we thought we stamped out so long ago. And some scholar went and wrote about it! Now, maybe we can make an argument that Ēostre is somehow different and Easter. Hopefully nobody will notice that the Old English Christian celebration was in fact also spelled Ēostre, ha-ha-ha! That way we could keep it off the article, by golly!

• Cusack, Carole M. (2008). "The Return of the Goddess: Mythology, Witchcraft and Feminist Spirituality" as published in Pizza, Murphy. Lewis, James R. (Editors). Handbook of Contemporary Paganism. Brill Publishers. ISBN 9004163735

And I'm sure there's piles more out there to be listed here. I fear that it's only a matter of time before this article gives into the evils of secularism and modern neopaganism! But don't you fret, we can keep making excuses for barring every non-Christian thing that comes along from this article over some it not being the real Easter, no matter what relation it might have. Why, if we keep playing our cards right, we might finally be able to compete with that wellspring of right information, Conservapedia! :bloodofox: (talk) 02:28, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

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