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Revision as of 03:44, 23 April 2012 editAnupam (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers60,231 edits →RfC: the proposed sentence does not necessarily mean it should replace the existing one← Previous edit		Revision as of 03:57, 23 April 2012 edit undoAprock (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users9,805 edits Undid revision 488757338 by Anupam (talk) restore per WP:TPO Next edit →
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	::<small>Added box with proposed sentence and refs{{mdash}}] (]) 02:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)</small>		::<small>Added box with proposed sentence and refs{{mdash}}] (]) 02:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)</small>

			::Just to add more clarity: Above proposed sentence is to replace an existing sentence shown in below box ] (]) 02:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

			<blockquote class="toccolours" style="float:none; padding: 10px 15px 10px 15px; display:table;">
			Sociologist Philip Schwadel found that higher levels of education correlate with greater tolerance for atheists' public opposition to religion, greater skepticism of religious leaders, and a reconsideration of "the role of religion in secular society".<ref>{{cite journal \|title=The Effects of Education on Americans’ Religious Practices, Beliefs, and Affiliations\|last=Schwadel\|first=Philip\|year=2011\|journal=Review of Religious Research\|volume=53\|issue=2\|doi=10.1007/s13644-011-0007-4\|}}</ref>
			{{reflist\|1\|close=1}}
			</blockquote>

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Sentence Restructuring to First Paragraph for Accurate Conveyance

The last sentence in the first opening paragraph reads: "Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The sentence structure seems to convey the idea that theism itself asserts the existence of one deity while allowing for the possibility of more.

I recommend it be changed to "Atheism is contrasted with theism, which (in its most general form) entails belief in the existence of one or more deities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synaptic Elucidation (talk • contribs) 08:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Why "entails" rather than "is"? How about "belief that a deity or deities exist", to not unduly emphasize an irrelevant matter of quantity? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

On a note vaguely related to this (since it has to do with the opener) - it might be helpful to reframe the line about the first people who described themselves as "atheists", so that it's clear that the terminology emerged then, rather than the idea. The information about classical India and so on later in the text makes it clear that this line refers only to the term itself, but only in retrospect for those who continue reading. So, perhaps a better phrasing would be "the first people to identify themselves by the term 'atheist' lived in the 18th Century." ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Massivereptile (talk • contribs) 02:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. To some degree, I had thought that was clear from the quotation marks around the word "atheist", but I made an edit similar to what you suggested, which I hope will remove any lack of clarity. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

religious people and scientific knowledge compared with non believers

According this study, Evans, "Epistemological and Moral Conflict Between Religion and Science", Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 50, Issue 4, pages 707–727, December 2011, "After controlling for important variables such as education level, income, age, ethnicity, and gender, Evans found that there was no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that religious believers rejected science across the board. In fact, he found that evangelic Protestants had actually taken more college-level science classes than the average non-religious respondent, and that mainline Protestants were more scientifically literate than ordinary Americans! Even conservative fundamentalist Protestants were no less likely to understand important scientific concepts and methods than non-religious Americans with comparable education levels.".
I don't know if this is the right WP article for this study but as I read in the article in the Demographic section that "An international study has reported positive correlations between levels of education and not believing in a deity" I could suppose that Evans study could find place in the same section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.40.169.142 (talk) 07:45, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Offhand, I would think that Relationship between religion and science might be the best place for that information. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Offhand, the author is clearly attacking a straw man. Also, I'd hate to see his definition of "science". Yet more evidence that our education system is failing miserably. :( Kevin Baas 14:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

2.40.169.142, thanks for your comments. I agree with User:Tryptofish in stating that the study can be added to the Relationship between religion and science article. In the near future I can help you add it if you are having any difficulty in doing so. Additionally, I agree with you in that this section needs balanced because the claim that "An international study has reported positive correlations between levels of education and not believing in a deity" is only the finding of one study. A while ago, a notable study that was discussed in CNN showed the converse relationship. When I get some time, I will add it in the article. Thanks for your willingness to improve Misplaced Pages! With regards, Anupam 15:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't realize when I made my suggestion above that there would be anything controversial here. Let me just make sure to also point to WP:NPOV, and encourage everyone to be aware of it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I added the study in the article but was reverted by User:Abhishikt here, who stated in his/her edit summary that "rv unverifyable content addition. the sources doesn't seem to be fully accessible, reliable or peer-reviewed." The references are clearly given in the article, including the peer reviewed journal (here) as well as a secondary source (here). User:Abhishikt is asked to state his reason for edit warring and removing the information in the article. Thanks, Anupam 05:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Definition includes rejection of a soul

Atheism is not just the rejection of a belief in a deity, atheism is the rejection in the belief of any religious claims, including a soul. For instance, Buddhists are not atheists because they believe in the existence of a soul. This article seems to be saying that atheism is only the belief that God does not exist, which is only part of what atheism is. The first sentence should read "Atheism is the rejection of all theistic claims, including but not limited to the existence of a deity and soul." --Schicagos (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:42, 10 April 2012 (UTC).

We'd talked about this a couple months back. Our sources say quite clearly that atheism is simply the rejection of theism, and that theism deals only with the god claim. We'd need strong reliable sources to change that definition. Thanks! — Jess· Δ ♥ 22:00, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Defining "atheist"

I see that an editor has concerns about my having deleted the definition of "atheist" from the lead. If I understand correctly, the reason for those concerns is that Atheist redirects to this page. The relevant considerations here are, I think, those given at WP:R#PLA. We already have a hatnote stating that Atheist redirects here, so I think that fulfills the principle of least astonishment. Beyond that, we really don't need to define the word; see also WP:NOTDICT. On one level, it's obvious to anyone that "atheist" is to "person" as "atheism" is to "concept" (or something like concept, let's not argue that, please). It's not difficult to understand, and we don't have to explain it. On the other hand, once we start going down the road of providing a more precise definition, we'll be looking at the same never-ending talk page ride that the definition of atheism has yielded. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I tried to find something in the contribution that could survive - because 1> it was "OK" 2> I do not think this article is yet complete, and 3> we should try to overcome the opinion that established editors make it impossible to add anything to this article. ALSO, the sentence

Whether this non-belief needs to be explicit in order to qualify one as an atheist depends on which definition of atheism is used./ref name= Nagel1959/

made some reference back to the three definitions, at least suggests that different people "choose" different definitions, and does not just leave the (probably unexpected) 3 definitions hanging in the air. We have spent many, many ~~hours~~ days on the definitions & the only one in the body that gets extensive treatment is the absence one. The section on definitions has more of a focus on categorizations. Btw, the section "Definition as impossible or impermanent" is not about definition at all but about "actualization" (for want of a better term).--JimWae (talk) 07:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't in any way finding fault with your edits, trying to make the definition more encyclopedic after the definition was first added by the editor whom I addressed above. I'm sorry if you thought that I was. And it has nothing to do with "established" editors. I would still have reverted it no matter who the editor was, and I would not have reverted it if I thought it was improving the article, no matter who the editor was. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Defining "Atheism"

The definition of Atheism seems to have been debated thoroughly, however, the current definition displayed in this article does not follow from the sources cited. The definitions displayed by the sources seem a indicate a definition that would paraphrase the following: "The definition of atheism is controversial. Definitions include a lack of belief in the existence of a god or deities, or an affirmative belief in the nonexistence of a god or deities." The sources do not directly indicate a narrowing of definition and thus this article, to be accurate, should not either. --Michael 23:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Introduction to article: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist." 184.74.137.131 (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Different sources discuss different definitions of the term, and so we have to accommodate each source in some way. Per WP:NOTDICT, we can't begin the article talking about the definition of the term. This article is about the concept, not the definition. It's a subtle nuance, but one you'll hear a lot on this page. — Jess· Δ ♥ 04:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The "analysis" in observing that the competing definitions have differing ranges of applicability is pretty trivial; a comparative source would of course be nice, but probably not strictly necessary. I suppose explicitly stating that definitional controversy exists could be an improvement. --Cybercobra (talk) 05:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Demographics

I've reverted the change that was made, not because it used one source over another, but because it was misrepresenting the source. User:LeeMcLoughlin1975 added people who answered "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" to the number of atheists reported by Eurobarometer. Neither Eurobarometer nor any credible source considers such people "atheists." Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 23:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

By the three definitions given in the lead paragraph of this article, an atheist can believe in spirits and life forces. Atheists can also believe in ghosts, the tooth fairy and the devil simply because atheists are defined by their non-belief in god! 90.200.220.93 (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

You're not saying that they can when you report those figures you're saying that they are. Big difference, especially when that "can" is extremely unlikely. You also cannot extrapolate things like that from sources in general, especially when definitions are contested. Eurobarometer is clearly not considering those people to be atheists. Now stop sock puppeting during your block.Griswaldo (talk) 11:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the Eurobarometer poll 2005 it's clear that the theists and deists are marked in dark blue. The atheists are marked in yellow and the agnostics are marked in grey. That leaves just the light blue section 'I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force'. All theists and deists would be in the yellow section so the light blue section has to be made up of atheists and agnostics. The atheist:agnostic ratio of the light blue section can not be determined so the Eurobarometer poll can't provide accurate atheist percentages. It provides a minimum number of atheists (yellow) and a maximum number of atheists (yellow + light blue). 90.192.121.150 (talk) 22:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

We cannot say whether people who say "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" are atheists or not, as that would be synthesis not supported by the source. Therefore we cannot add them to the "atheist" total. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:14, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, that's what I was saying. The Eurobarometer poll doesn't give accurate atheist percentages and should not be used. 90.192.121.150 (talk) 07:29, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, OK, so you're opposing LeeMcLoughlin1975, who added the "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" respondents to the atheist count, and you're therefore not his sock? My view is that we can use the poll, but only to state what the poll said - we can include no interpretation of it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Having read the report in a bit more detail, I agree that we cannot use the Eurobarometer poll to determine the number of self-professed atheists in the countries surveyed, because it does not include that category. For example, for the UK (that's where I am, so it'll do as an example), the results are...

"I believe there is a God" = 38%
"I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" = 40%
"I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force" = 20%
"Don't know" = 2% (No figure shown, but 100-(20+40+38)

There is no "I do not believe there is a God" category, and the best we can say is that the poll suggests at least 20% of respondents are atheist. On the subject of belief in God specifically, the 40% in the "I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" category will almost certainly include some agnostics, and it might even include some polytheists and pagans, etc, depending on how they interpreted "a God". The makeup of that group is simply unknown, and we can't categorize its members as theist or atheist - and we certainly can't go to the absurd extreme of calling them all atheists and claiming 60% of UK citizens are atheist. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

templeton foundation

Is the John Templeton Foundation a reliable source for the statement "Although in Western culture atheists are often irreligious, some consider themselves spiritual"? source: http://www.templeton.org/templeton_report/20110601/index.html . The actual survey does not mention anything any questions about spirituality .IRWolfie- (talk) 13:09, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

The John Templeton Foundation seems to be a controversial organisation, and there has apparently been numerous accusations of it espousing a hidden agenda, so for general statements like that I think we need a better source. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

They are summarizing a paper published in the journal Sociology of Religion which is itself eminently reliable. The Foundation is also very well respected in academia, though I have personal reservations about their agenda. Their president, John Templeton Jr. donated money to Rick Santorum's superPAC and has all kinds of other ultra-conservative culture wars credentials. However, that does not mean they can't reliably summarize the scholarship of their grantees. It would be better if someone could read the journal article itself. I'll have a look if I can access it.Griswaldo (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

This is the actual paper they are referring to , but I do not have access to the last two years of this journal. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:04, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems they used the survey I linked to and rang some of the people and asked them open ended questions (their words) and then interpreted those answers. (most of the paper you linked just contains different quotes) IRWolfie- (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what they did, but the paper I linked to is the source for the report on the Templeton website we are currently using as a reference. Do you have access to the paper in Sociology of Religion (I don't)? If our information is accurate I would replace the source with the journal paper, however I'm not sure it belongs in the lead either way.Griswaldo (talk) 15:55, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes it's fine for referencing the initial text. It appears to be the definition of spiritual not of an an alleged immaterial reality but of a sense of wonder or similar (pantheism?): For example, from the paper: "I consider myself in one sense a spiritual person, wondering about the complexity and the majesty of existence as I understand it." IRWolfie- (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Great. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstand, but it looks to me like the source is currently deleted from this page. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Templeton funded psuedoscience with extra propaganda found and deleted. You'll never guess who added it in the first place. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 09:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! That text was undue nonsense. Johnuniq (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it "nonsense" or "psuedoscience." It's from a study published in a well respected journal, Sociology of Religion. That said, I agree that it didn't belong in the lead. However, the idea that some atheists may still be spiritual, particularly in the sense that IRWolfie describes above is not only of interest, but it's also nothing new. Just look at the history of the American Secular Humanism. There are plenty of Humanists who have a "spiritual" experience of the grandeur of nature. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

yes it appeared the description was in the sense of pantheism, since there appear to be two meanings to spiritual it may be misleading; the definition of spirtual in the linked article appears a bit vague. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:58, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Afterlife

Jimwae, you recently added a part about some atheists believing in an afterlife. But the source says atheists often do not believe in an afterlife. Can you explain yourself? Pass a Method talk 04:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

It's the source you added isn't it? If you have read the bottom of the page, you can see it says some atheists do NOT reject an afterlife. If you insist, other sources could be found that say specifically some actually believe in it - as do some belive in reincarnation. The idea is that there it could still be some kind of "natural" process -- i.e. not divinely designed, but still somehow in the "natural laws of the universe" that we do not know about. --JimWae (talk) 06:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Yep. From the source PassaMethod provided...

The idea that nothingness follows death is often associated with atheism. However, it is possible to be an atheist—someone who does not believe in the existence of God or a supreme transcendental Being—and still be open to the possibility, even the hope, that we might survive the death of the body and continue existing in some kind of afterlife. Such atheists still don't believe that there is any kind of theistic Supreme Being that can interact with the earthly world or otherworldly realm, or that there is any kind of deistic God who has created everything but does not interact or intervene with its created world, either earthly or super- natural. There is simply the reality of our human experience, which may be able to continue once our physical bodies have ceased to be viable vehicles for such experiencing.
Handbook to the Afterlife. p. 18.

Nice try. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The source doesn't actually say that such atheists exist. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... "The book includes practical techniques for opening up communication with those who have passed on to the other side. While of interest to anyone seeking a general overview of the subject, Handbook to the Afterlife is particularly useful for those dealing with spirits who have not moved on, such as ghosts."

Nothing like playing on other editors assumptions of good faith to make a point. Deleted. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, unreliable source, I should have checked out the book. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should be putting what are fringe/minority positions amongst atheists into the lede, especially with vague words like "some". IRWolfie- (talk) 14:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Well its better than nothing. Atheist opinions about what happens after you die are very important because it is one of the core things that differentiate them from non-atheists. Pass a Method talk 15:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

It is very important according to who? Do we have any reliable sources that show it is a very important issue? Adding fringe views because it is better than nothing is not a good rationale. If it's not discussed in reliable sources we don't mention it in the article. Especially not in a featured article. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Its very important to many religious charts who usually tend to include "afterlife beliefs" regarding any religion or belief-system, e.g. . Also "atheist afterlife" gets 5,000,000 hits on google , so its obviously a notable topic. Pass a Method talk 16:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The self-published source doesn't state it's important for them, rather you have declared it to be important (it also lists none under afterlife for atheism). It's irrelevant though as the article isn't about religious charts, it's about atheism and nothing that gives WP:DUE weight for the WP:FRINGE position to be mentioned in this article has been shown. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Notability has no relation to article content, WP:DUE weight does. Also WP:GOOGLEHITS is a poor demonstration of notability or due weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Irwolfie, Lets agree to disagree then. Im going to start an RFC below. Pass a Method talk 16:48, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Why are you starting an RFC? You have no sources to back up the text you want included and are ignoring policy and guidelines because they disagree with you. This page is also watched by many others but you haven't waited for a reply from them either (i.e it is premature, the first post in this thread was only 12 hours ago). IRWolfie- (talk) 16:54, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I can easily find sources for any of the material i post if you just ask. Since we clearly disagree i see no other option but to start an RfC. You are free to post your opinon below in more detail. Pass a Method talk 17:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I also fail to see the point. Atheism is not a belief system. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 17:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Why would it be relevant if I asked or not? You should be showing sources for any suggested content. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Whats the point of showing sources if we cant even agree on notability. First we establish notability, THEN we can move to reliable sources m'kay? Pass a Method talk 17:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I have already pointed out that notability is not relevant to article content. I suggest you read WP:NOTABILITY. Here is the very first line: On Misplaced Pages, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a topic can have its own article. Specifically check this section entitled Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article: WP:NNC which has the line The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you stop teating me like a newbie please. I am probably more familiar with wikipedia policies than you Pass a Method talk 17:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not trying to insult you, can you please just read some of the links I've posted in this discussion before you comment further. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

@PM, how long you've been on WP is irrelevant. You're trying to add content to the article, but have failed to provide any sources to back up that content. That's a problem, not just on this article, but every article on WP. First, we examine sources, then we assign weight, then we include content. Notability, google hits, and personal experiences don't influence article content. Please provide sources first, then we can have a discussion about the content. — Jess· Δ ♥ 17:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

If you check my last edit, you will notice that i DID provide sources for my edits. See Pass a Method talk 18:14, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Those were unreliable sources as noted earlier. (Also note that the lede summarises the article). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Number 1 and 3, in particular, are awful sources. The description of #3 begins "The "Calling Card" is a challenge to atheism..." That's not the type of quality source we'd want to describe what atheists believe. The second one seems okay at first glance, but it's not particularly weighty. Also, if no one has said it yet, the lead reflects the body; we'd need to include this content in the body first before even considering summarizing it in the lead. — Jess· Δ ♥ 18:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

"A functionalist, reductionist argument" for "resurrecting the dead" (back cover blurb) is "ok at first glance"? I think not... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

@Andy Yep. You're right. If it says that, it's certainly not a quality source for our purposes either. — Jess· Δ ♥ 20:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

(Andy: great edit summary!) I think it's time to say some parting words for this proposal to modify the lead, may it rest in peace. I've looked at the three sources. They are simply too WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE to be included in the lead here. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay, how about these sources? , . Are they okay? Pass a Method talk 21:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

These just seem to be memoirs (one looks definetly self published) from random people. They don't even appear to support the text you mentioned. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:02, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I just checked, the other is self published as well. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you stop wasting everyone's time with random results from Google, and instead find a reliable source directly on the subject of atheism, that directly discusses the beliefs of atheists regarding 'the afterlife. Without this, there is nothing further to be said on the matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Restored "quote"

Anupam,the quote you restored is not in the link, it appears to be an accidental copy paste from the ref below it. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Upon looking at the revert, I noticed that the link was incorrect, which is what caused the confusion in the first place. Here is the correct hyperlink, which contains the appropriate quote. I hope this helps. Have a nice day! Thanks, Anupam 15:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

There is something very odd about these books: the two quotes are virtually identical. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

It turns out they are the same because Rodney Stark wrote the chapter. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I have updated the article accordingly. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

RfC, Is it notable to include atheist views about the afterlife?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

{{rfc|reli}}

There is a dispute above about whether commonly-held atheist views about the afterlife is notable enough for inclusion this article. Therefore, please answer this question:

Do you support or oppose adding atheist views about the afterlife (and what happens after death) in this article? If so, do you support or oppose adding it to the lede?

Support I support adding atheistic views on the afterlife to both article and lede, because i believe it is a notable topic. It is covered in many notable books, variations of "atheist afterlife" all bring high google hits, and it is often discussed in threads and discussions about atheism. For all these reasons i believe that is it notable to include atheist views on what happens after death. I'd say the lede is incomplete because it focuses on demographics, certain religions and etymology, without any mention of what atheists belief happens when you die. Pass a Method talk 17:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Strong Oppose, close premature RFC The editor who started this RFC still has confused WP:N Notability with WP:DUE due weight. I've already pointed out that this does not apply, before he started the RFC . The RFC is premature as the editor hasn't waited for other editors to reply: . The editor also provides a classic bad argument for his suggestion WP:GOOGLEHITS and his own life experiences, this is WP:OR. Article content is not decided by how many google hits different words get or how often people have mentioned things in your daily life, it's decided by reliable sources. So far the editor has suggested no suitable sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:24, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per 'what the heck?' To include this we'd need sources that state that "atheist views about the afterlife" are relevant to the topic. Where are they? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I've already asked for them, but he apparently wants to wait until the topic is established as being notable by consensus rather than by sources . IRWolfie- (talk) 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose, obviously. We need sources first. Discussion should have been open longer, and the editor should have been more open to the advice/opinions of other editors here before starting an RfC. It may be prudent to close this RfC for the time being until discussion has gone on for a little while, our basic sourcing policies are met, and there's a genuine need for outside editors to comment. — Jess· Δ ♥ 17:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Note Based on input in the discussion above, as well as here, I'm going to boldly close the RfC per WP:SNOW. WP:RfC indicates that an editor should discuss the matter on the talk page adequately before starting an RfC. Additionally, there are clear content policies which are not being met by this proposal. If discussion in the section above stalls, with the proposer able to provide the basic materials necessary to meet our content inclusion policies, then he may wish to open an RfC at that time, or seek other methods of dispute resolution. However, I would recommend leaving discussion open for a few days at an absolute minimum before proceeding with DR. — Jess· Δ ♥ 17:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Study

Anupam you have inserted a study which has no citations in peer reviewed journals. This is undue in comparison to the statements above it which uses over 40 studies in a meta-analysis, secondary sources like a meta-analysis is preferred to original research articles like the one you added. (I also notice that, bizarrely, the study doesn't explicitly ask for their religious views). IRWolfie- (talk) 10:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

User:IRWolfie-, with all due respect, this is ridiculous. I never removed the original information. In fact, in the article, there are FIVE sentences which support an inverse correlation between education and religion. I inserted ONE study from an academic journal (which actually is peer reviewed) that shows a proportional relationship and you revert me? WP:NPOV states that "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The study is also a very notable one as it appeared in CNN, The Telegraph, and CP, among other forms of mass media. Writing one sentence among a total six which discuss the subject does meet WP:DUE. In fact, without this statement, it seems like the paragraph has been written to prove a point. I request that you kindly self revert or I will start an RfC here. Thanks, Anupam 15:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Firstly your reasoning for re-inserting the text makes no sense, notability isn't a reason to insert text, due weight is. You inserted a single study to try and "balance" a meta-analysis of 43 studies, 39 of which gave the connection. That is completely undue. You also added citations to the daily mail of all things to back up this interpretation. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Schwadel's study only looked at one single aspect of atheism versus higher education level: Does higher education level give a person greater tolerance for public expressions of atheism, people speaking out against organized religion? Schwadel found that yes, it does. Educated people are more tolerant of atheism. I cannot support any pop culture (Daily Mail, etc.) conclusions supposedly taken from Schwadel as they wander away from an examination of atheism. Schwadel did not upset the applecart; he found the same sorts of things that previous researchers found, especially that educated people are more tolerant. Anupam would have us believe otherwise, that the Schwadel study was a game changer. Anupam misrepresents Schwadel, taking quotes out of context. Binksternet (talk) 17:44, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

If the source is not being used as some sort of counter to 39 other studies then this is ok. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Characterizing Schwadel(2010) as a "study" in the same sense of the word used by other references in the section is misleading. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 18:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

"Schwadel's analysis of the General Social Survey data", I suppose since he didn't actually perform a study. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

In all fairness, whether Schwadel collected his own data or used previously published data has no bearing on the validity of the survey. That it has not been cited by anyone else, though, strongly suggests that the results and conclusions have not been widely accepted in the scholarly community, and have not become an important element of scholarly discourse on the topic. Using a cherry-picked single study of dubious significance to balance 39 studies critically examined in a meta-study is a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes the lack of citations suggests it has not been picked up by anyone in the field and should thus has no weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that there is bluntly mis-use of WEIGHT.Reality and facts are being ingnored,while there are Reliable sources,and NPOV has been put under the minority?. Justice007 (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is not comprehensible. Please try again. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:17, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are saying. Also note that per WP:BRD we don't re-insert newly added contentious content as you did here , we reach consensus first on the talk page. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Please understand, Dominus Vobisdu, one does not employ an edit summary "Do not edit war..." on their second revert; one's next step after being reverted is the article talk page. Tiderolls 22:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Binksternet states that I am mirepresenting the source despite the fact that the content in the article was a direct quote from the abstract, which states:

Analysis of survey data shows that (1) education negatively affects exclusivist religious viewpoints and biblical literalism but not belief in God or the afterlife; (2) education positively affects religious participation, devotional activities, and emphasizing the importance of religion in daily life

In addition, secondary sources (CNN, The Telegraph, and CP) discussing the study corroborate this key finding, as evidenced by the content in the article, as well as the article title. For example, the article from CNN titled "Study: More educated tend to be more religious, by some measures" states:

With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, ‘I don’t believe in God,’” he said. “But you are relatively more likely to say, ‘I believe in a higher power.

The article from Daily Mail, titled "The more education people receive, the more religious they become?" states:

By analyzing data from a large national survey, sociologist Philip Schwadel of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln found that people tend to become more religious - by certain definitions - as they further their education. The survey also qualified what concept of God or a 'higher power' individuals held, as well as whether they had any doubts. Mr Schwadel said that: 'With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, "I don’t believe in God," but you are relatively more likely to say, "I believe in a higher power."'

The article from CP, titled "More is More When it Comes to Education and Religion, Study Says New Study Reveals the Highly Educated Are More Religious Today" also states:

Sociologist Philip Schwadel from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) studied this phenomenon. He discovered that people today tend to become more religious as they further their education.

It is quite evident that I am not misrepresenting anything here, which is why the version of the article I reinstated contained all of these references, with the original quotes in the quote parameter (which User:Binksternet removed and supplanted with his own interpretation). I am also equally surprised that User:IRWolfie- stated that he did not approve of the article, but then stated that the source was okay, after User:Binksternet added a new finding from the same article. Once again, I acknowledge the fact that the other studies in the article (given five sentences) show an inverse correlation between education and religion. It is fair, however, to add in one sentence on a study that shows a proportional relationship per WP:NPOV: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." I am confident that the addition was appropriate and I feel that it might be necessary to ask a third party to resolve the issue, rather than the same editors who frequent this page. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 22:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Cherry picking a single paper to counter a meta-analysis of 43 studies is completely undue. I specifically mentioned this above, your comment does not deal with this. You mentioned notability as well earlier, notability has zero to do with article content.IRWolfie- (talk) 23:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply User:IRWolfie. The findings from the metanalysis have a total of FIVE sentences in the article. I am simply adding in ONE sentence regarding the most recent study which found the opposite correlation per WP:NPOV. If the content I added is not restored, I think consulting with Dispute Resolution or starting an RfC would be the best option. To me, the abstract of the article, as well as the media sources that comment on it make the findings of the study clear. I hope this hels. With regards, Anupam 23:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Just because it is more recent doesn't mean it is somehow trumps other papers. By that logic this paper from 2012: should be used with the nice phrase of: "it appears that highly religious people may also be less skilled at basic logical inference than less religious people.", which cites this 2011 study . Should we add that to? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

The number of studies etc and support in the literature for the negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity is a lot higher in ratio than 5:1 sentences, and thus it is undue to include this uncited study. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Note: I have fully protected this page as several editors are still reverting as this discussion progresses. If a consensus is formed in the next 24 hours, please let me know and I'll drop the protection, or post a request at WP:RFPP. Kuru (talk) 23:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

RfC

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Should this sentence regarding atheism and education be reincluded in the article? Thanks for your comments. With regards, Anupam 00:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

However, a 2011 scholarly study published in the Review of Religious Research demonstrated that education is not correlated with disbelief in God and that "education positively affects religious participation, devotional activities, and emphasizing the importance of religion in daily life."

Schwadel, Philip (2011). "The Effects of Education on Americans' Religious Practices, Beliefs, and Affiliations" (PDF). Review of Religious Research. 53 (2). doi:10.1007/s13644-011-0007-4.

Jim Kavanagh (11 August 2011). "Study: More educated tend to be more religious, by some measures". CNN.
"With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, 'I don’t believe in God,'" he said. "But you are relatively more likely to say, 'I believe in a higher power.'"

"The more education people receive, the more religious they become?". Daily Mail. 12 August 2011.
"By analyzing data from a large national survey, sociologist Philip Schwadel of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln found that people tend to become more religious - by certain definitions - as they further their education. The survey also qualified what concept of God or a 'higher power' individuals held, as well as whether they had any doubts. Mr Schwadel said that: "With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, 'I don’t believe in God,' but you are relatively more likely to say, 'I believe in a higher power.'"

"More is More When it Comes to Education and Religion, Study Says". Christian Post. 13 August 2011.
"Sociologist Philip Schwadel from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) studied this phenomenon. He discovered that people today tend to become more religious as they further their education."

Added box with proposed sentence and refs—ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to add more clarity: Above proposed sentence is to replace an existing sentence shown in below box Abhishikt (talk) 02:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Sociologist Philip Schwadel found that higher levels of education correlate with greater tolerance for atheists' public opposition to religion, greater skepticism of religious leaders, and a reconsideration of "the role of religion in secular society".

Schwadel, Philip (2011). "The Effects of Education on Americans' Religious Practices, Beliefs, and Affiliations". Review of Religious Research. 53 (2). doi:10.1007/s13644-011-0007-4. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

Comments

Strong Support The article currently provides five sentences discussing a positive correlation between disbelief in God and education. In order to balance these claims, the sentence in question, which shows a proportional relationship between religiosity and education must be reincluded in the article per WP:NPOV, which states that "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The sentence is supported by three reliable sources, including the academic journal itself, as well as articles discussing the study (CNN, The Telegraph, and CP), which further demonstrate the notability of the study. Since only one sentence is being added, WP:DUE is fulfilled. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 00:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose, per all the comments above. The OP does not appear to be hearing or accepting the comments of others. It's been said repeatedly that notability doesn't influence article content, so that cannot be used as a justification for inclusion of this material. WP:DUE is a substantial part of NPOV, which indicates that we should represent all views in proportion to their significance, a section which the OP appears to be gleaning over. As has been stated repeatedly, the current article reflects the conclusions of a meta-analysis of 43 studies, which has been cited in other formats and had a significant impact on the literature. The new content being inserted is a single study which has not been cited or made any impact on the literature. "Balancing" one with the other would be wholly inappropriate, as it in no way reflects the relative prominence of the sources. Lastly, the source being inserted is being misrepresented, as its conclusions appear to be picked through to draw a particular conclusion counter to the meta-analysis. This has also been pointed out repeatedly. Considering the weight of consensus above, which appears to be wholly in-line with policy, this RfC appears to be a waste of time. — Jess· Δ ♥ 02:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

The sentence being discussed in the RfC is neutral and is supported by the academic journal, as well as three media articles that discuss the notable study. The abstract of the article states:

Analysis of survey data shows that (1) education negatively affects exclusivist religious viewpoints and biblical literalism but not belief in God or the afterlife; (2) education positively affects religious participation, devotional activities, and emphasizing the importance of religion in daily life

With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, ‘I don’t believe in God,’” he said. “But you are relatively more likely to say, ‘I believe in a higher power.

The article from Daily Mail, titled "The more education people receive, the more religious they become?" states:

By analyzing data from a large national survey, sociologist Philip Schwadel of the University of Nebraska-Lincoln found that people tend to become more religious - by certain definitions - as they further their education. The survey also qualified what concept of God or a 'higher power' individuals held, as well as whether they had any doubts. Mr Schwadel said that: 'With more years of education, you aren’t relatively more likely to say, "I don’t believe in God," but you are relatively more likely to say, "I believe in a higher power."'

The article from CP, titled "More is More When it Comes to Education and Religion, Study Says New Study Reveals the Highly Educated Are More Religious Today" also states:

Sociologist Philip Schwadel from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) studied this phenomenon. He discovered that people today tend to become more religious as they further their education.

The version of the article which I favour being reinclude gives all of these references, with the original quotes in the quote parameter. I acknowledge the fact that the other studies in the article (given five sentences) show an inverse correlation between education and religion. It is fair, however, to add in one sentence on a study that shows a proportional relationship per WP:NPOV: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." I am confident that the addition is appropriate in light of these facts. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 22:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. The Schwadel analysis did not find anything radically different from previous studies, and it certainly is not fairly represented by cherry-picking some phrases that seem to make religion more palatable to educated people. Though the analysis found that educated people were more involved with church activities, it also found that they were "more likely ...to question the role of religion in secular society". This last bit has also been in the news; it's not just the more church-ey bits. Newspapers such as the Lincoln Journal-Star ("UNL study: Higher education level boosts churchgoing habits") have discussed the greater churchgoing aspect found by Schwadel but they have balanced that by emphasizing the questioning of religion in secular society. Even the UNL press release and the laughable Daily Mail says that educated people question religion in secular society. We cannot describe the Schwadel analysis as being significantly different. Binksternet (talk) 02:59, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

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