Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:34, 26 April 2012

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ireland article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Template:IECOLL-talk

	Ireland has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result April 15, 2006 Good article nominee Listed October 13, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted October 30, 2008 Good article reassessment Not listed April 7, 2010 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ireland Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Celts High‑importance Ireland is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0 Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. UK geography Top‑importance This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WikiProject UK geographyUK geography Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Islands This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islands, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of islands on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslandsWikipedia:WikiProject IslandsTemplate:WikiProject IslandsIslands

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ireland article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Ireland National Anthem

I posted |national anthem =
"Amhrán na bhFiann onto the article.. but it's not showing up. Help?

Twillisjr (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

it is already where it should be, at the article about the state of the same name. RashersTierney (talk) 20:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ireland was patitioned in 1921 between Northern Ireland and (what is now) the Republic of Ireland. Amhrán na bhFiann was adopted as the national anthem of the second of these in 1926. It is not the national anthem in Northern Ireland or of the country as a whole. --RA (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the political issues surrounding the "Ireland National Anthem." Perhaps then, there should be at a minimum, a section of this article that explains Amhrán na bhFiann and God Save the Queen both being considered their national anthems (or not). A citizen's belief in sovereignty of many nations depend on a mention of such items and symbols. Please also review: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ei.html

"name: "Amhran na bhFiann" (The Soldier's Song) lyrics/music: Peadar KEARNEY , Liam O RINN /Patrick HEENEY and Peadar KEARNEY note: adopted 1926; instead of "Amhran na bhFiann," the song "Ireland's Call" is often used in athletic events where citizens of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland compete as a unified team"

Twillisjr (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

This is an article about the island of Ireland, a landmass not a country/state/nation, it doesn't have an anthem. Anthems are relevant to states and are treated as such in the appropriate pages on the states. Putting a national anthem in this page is like saying North America has a national anthem. Canterbury Tail talk 22:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Got it, thanks.

Twillisjr (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Picking up where the United States left off

So, it appears Ireland is attempting to push through with its own version of SOPA. Any comments concerning this? Should it be brought up in the article? Or perhaps a relating article? ...Should it be silenced down into oblivion? 83.189.184.232 (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrong page. See Talk:Republic of Ireland. Also note WP:NOTFORUM. RashersTierney (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ireland and the China precedent

Moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Ireland and the China precedent (per note at top of page). --RA (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

bit silly this.........

How ridiculous that this article is about the chunk of land in the sea and not the country known as Ireland. And I say that as a British person too. Coolug (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

As a British person you should be aware that the island of Ireland is shared between a country called Ireland and a country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Please explain why you think a country that has existed for less than 100 years should take prime position to the island that it copied its name from which has existed for a lot longer? And why that country should be able to claim ownership over the whole of the island and its history, which is what you will do if the country article is put here. Anyway we are not meant to discuss this here. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Ditto. Mabuska 00:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The broad concept of Ireland - it's history, culture, geography, people, politics, and so forth, including Northern Ireland - are described in this article. Another article, specifically on the Irish state, is at Republic of Ireland. --RA (talk) 12:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Languages in Ireland

"Irish is the only language to have originated from within the island. " This appears in the art section. There are two other languages I know of that are native to Ireland, Cant being one, Yola being another. Cant died out in the 1950's as far as I know, though many words still survive in Traveller's English dialect now. Yola a died out in the decades after the famine. The sentence I quoted is prefaced by the sentence - "There are a number of languages used in Ireland." I think it is misleading to say "Irish is the only language to have originated from within the island" as a standalone sentence. If it was changed to "Irish is the only one of those language to have originated from within the island" it would make more sense. Alternatively, mention could be made of Cant and Yola. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.223.193 (talk) 15:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Makes logical sense. Mabuska 22:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Anthems

I think that irelands call and amhrán na bhfiann shold be mentioned either on this or the republic of ireland page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.239.84 (talk) 17:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Amhrán na bhFiann is mentioned on the Republic of Ireland page. I'm not sure if or how Ireland's Call could or should be included. Better to leave out IMO. --RA (talk) 23:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The island has no anthem. Mabuska 11:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

merge this page with republic of Ireland

to save confusion and frustration this page should be moved to republic of Ireland,and another page sould be created for the island — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philpm930 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Not sure where your confusion and/or frustration arises, Philipm930. Ireland is an island. There are two jurisdictions on the island. A large portion of the island of Ireland is not, at the time of writing, in the Republic of Ireland. This article is about the island; other articles deal with the political entities. Brocach (talk) 21:11, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

when i typ

Philpm930, for better or worse the Irish state has the same name (Ireland) as the topic of this article. It is difficult to know which is more frequent or common use of the term. However, the topic of this article is a certainly the broader concept i.e. the History of Ireland, Culture of Ireland, Geography of Ireland, People of Ireland, Music of Ireland and so on relate directly to the topic of this article, not to the topic of the Irish state (involving, as they do, Northern Ireland).

Consequently, the broad concept of "Ireland" is at this article and the narrower topic of the "Republic of Ireland" is at the other article. --RA (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Of course, that's built on the decision that the Primary Topic is the island. There was a debate and vote,, and it was decided a while ago that this article should be about the island, not the state. Check out WP:IMOS. --HighKing (talk) 23:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that the real winners of that "vote" were those who have always wanted two political articles on the Irish state, as RA has basically demonstrated by his comment above. Of course the "vote" you allude to was taken when he was a human IP for a undisclosed period (while others who retired really did retire, ahem). People who voted against using the standard multi-meaning 'disambiguation page' for the multi-meaning 'Ireland' (the second time around - the first time around a large poll won of course, and was inexcusably "wheel-warred" back by a particularly flippant admin in the middle of people bussying away correcting the mess) - based their 'no change' position on anything different rocking the so-called 'stability'. Those 'status quo' votes were not by "British POV pushers" or any nonsense like that (most of them were Irish nationalists - and what a nightmare that simply-ridiculous and irrelevant-anyway 'British imperialists on Misplaced Pages are demanding the word "Republic"!' argument made of things), those voters were merely misguided people, and 'useful idiots' to the Irish nationalists who who've always demanded two 'state' articles - the romantic idyll of All 'Ireland', and the 'Republic of Ireland'.

Despite all the incessant Wikilawyering, real Misplaced Pages Policy is never, ever allowed to dictate Irish matters. Ireland (or more to the point its imperialist faction) is simply a law unto itself on this encyclopedia. Every time it gets it's non-policy way. Here at Ireland (rather more than geography isn't it?), Northern Ireland (a 'troubled area' that can't be called a "country", no matter who says it is), 'Derry' before the sovereign 'Londonderry', the so-called 'British Isles naming dispute' (and what exactly the definition of BI can be on Misplaced Pages), the Ireland 'project' (where NI is under Ireland and not a UK area - work that one out), every important page where NI is made to be synonymous with The Troubles (for God's sake), IMOS in parts, and what looks to me like a strong biography bias towards protestant terrorists (as if either is needed here): it's all beyond WP policy. I don't even look at most of the related articles (Ulster, the histories etc). It's only ever been an 'area' of mine because it came and stood in front of me one day and tried to bully me when I was writing about something else. Misplaced Pages is totally controlled by Irish nationalists in all the areas where they want to control it. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Total utter bollox Fmph (talk) 21:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I think there's some valid (if uncomfortable) truths there. Matt has always lost support in the past when he starts ... ranting (sorry Matt), but he does make some points. I don't subscribe to all of what he says - or at least his reasoning. But you'd have to scratch your head to understand why exactly the "Derry" article isn't at "Londonderry". It's not obvious. And it really is shameful that every Northern Ireland article seems to be about the Troubles. etc. --HighKing (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes life is so absurd I expect it is impossible for most people to relate it dispassionately. I can simply-list issues and points for sure (I just did so at the Mohammad images RfC - ok, maybe after an initial rant in an area that's often as prejudiced as this one), but IRE combined with the UK on Misplaced Pages must make every onlooker's head spin. Unless they are vulnerable to the b/s POV I suppose - and those people are the ultimate target here let's be honest.

There's nothing we can do about the distant past, but we can at least try to ensure a decent future. In a sense Misplaced Pages is pretty-much designed to rake up the past, and that's why it needs policy to settle it again - in a position that makes sense to people. Nothing in the area makes sense to me - and I look at it all through the lens of policy (as I always do - even when there are whole areas I disagree with, core policy is designed to win over in theory, but of course can so-often be sidestepped too). Ultimately UK/IRE issues have always come down to small or large battles of consensus, like recently at Northern Ireland. Clearly RA and some others have won a battle recently to 'finally' remove the word "country" - despite it being decided and reasoned upon as it has over the years - all per policy (and a lot of paperwork too). No one could deny the huge energy that one or two of them have put into the task of removing it. There's only one question - why? Whatever they might pretend now (and knowing RA he'll protect this mighty 'consensus' like it's part of the dead sea scrolls), nothing was pushing them to do it (the odd IP?) - other than a pure desire to achieve the change. None of the arguments I've read have ever stacked up, and many comments have been outrageously misleading. It's always ultimately a battle of attrition, possibly this time with the article being fully protected on the new version - the ultimate gift for those trying to establish a 'consensus change'.

Misplaced Pages really needs to scrub the faux-ironic 'I'm protecting the Wrong Version' nonsense. In reality it's just an excuse for locking on a non-consensus position (it's not used on established consensuses is it?). Admin need to realise that locking an article away from an established consensus simply gives an unfair advantage to those who caused the need to protect the article in the first place. It's basically rewarding edit warriors, and I've seen it cause mayhem for months and months in the past. If admin only lock articles on the established consensus (and it should be policy to do so when it's clearly there), the onus is then on the naturally present-and-eager person(s) who want to change it - not the other way around. Misplaced Pages's established text cannot be defended by people who are not around when the article is locked. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:TLDR Fmph (talk) 06:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Too Lucid - Don't Respond!! Matt Lewis (talk) 10:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Hardly too lucid... do you have any actual proposal to discuss here? Brocach (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Tell me what you didn't understand and I'll be briefer next time. I'm proposing that people stop centring their Misplaced Pages life around political sea change. Misplaced Pages is clearly a propitious place for this, but it's also clearly not wanted here. Matt Lewis (talk) 11:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

So you are using the Ireland talk page to propose that "people" do (or stop doing) something for which WP is "a propitious place", but that is "clearly not wanted"...? Nope, still don't think that counts as lucid; I'm not sure how I would even go about "centring" my "Misplaced Pages life", if I had such a thing, around "sea change" or its un-named alternative. Have you any actual proposal to make concerning the content of this article? Brocach (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You need to learn how to read with you head. Repeating your same 'proposal?' question to me makes you look a fool: I've stated clearly above that this article is supposed to be geography/geology etc only. All the politics, art etc - it's all forked for political intent. Obviously it all has to go (and hasn't always been here either). There is no point trying it - you will revert it as quickly as you did my removal of the anti-UK phrasiology in IMOS. You are actually coming across here like you run this article too. Matt Lewis (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I repeated my question because you did not answer it. You have now sort-of answered it, by saying that you would like to see all of the "politics, art etc" deleted from the article, reducing it to "geography/geology etc", more or less treating the island as though it had no human inhabitants. That's a pretty radical change - personally I would oppose it, but let's wait and see whether it gathers a huge consensus in favour. Meanwhile, be nice. I do not edit (or revert) from an anti-UK or any other political agenda. Brocach (talk) 14:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing "radical" about it - this is supposed to be an article about the rock, not Irish history, culture and politics. All that stuff is forked material from Republic of Ireland and History of Ireland etc. Why do this? Why does Misplaced Pages need it all duplicated here? The truth is that Republic of Ireland is treated like a temporary article until all 'Ireland' is fully reclaimed by the Irish. This cultural and poplital 'island' article is like a holding page until that happens. To claim that this article isn't a second Irish national article (even the central one in fact) is such a bare faced lie it doesn't wash with anyone: the evidence is simply in front of us.

All this article really needs regarding politics and culture is a paragraph on what nations have occupied the land, and anything on top of that is political and out of the article's remit. People I've spoken to on Misplaced Pages in the past have claimed that Irish people ARE the Emerald Isle, and that they are indistinguishable from each other. All that is emotional and touristy stuff - it's an attitude that shouldn't be anywhere near Misplaced Pages. Matt Lewis (talk)

You may be a tad over-sensitive, Matt. Any island with lots of people on it needs some reference to non-rock matters, beyond who stuck what flag where. In this particular island there are historical, cultural and social phenomena that predated and/or survived Partition and that deserve mention in an article that tries very hard to present facts about the island in a way that does not endorse or oppose any political viewpoint on partition. There is, of course, some duplication with articles on part A and part B of the island, but that is inevitable and you should not see it as undermining any claim on behalf of A or B: it is only an objective account of what has happened or is happening on this bit of the Earth's surface. Please, if you find anything in this or any other article that imports a political viewpoint (yours or anyone else's), object strongly; but if everything here is factually accurate and politically neutral, let it be. Brocach (talk) 20:07, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Have just waste my time reading this I believe that the majority of the text written by Matt Lewis should be removed as per WP:SOAP. Bjmullan (talk) 21:34, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Geography and places good articles
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class Ireland articles
• Top-importance Ireland articles
• GA-Class Ireland articles of Top-importance
• All WikiProject Ireland pages
• GA-Class Celts articles
• High-importance Celts articles
• WikiProject Celts articles
• GA-Class UK geography articles
• Top-importance UK geography articles
• GA-Class Islands articles
• WikiProject Islands articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists