Misplaced Pages

• Comment Having found the edit in question, I see only an editor defending himself against an accusation of being a liar. Perhaps if the editor who raised the ANI doesn't wish for such evidence to be presented, them he should AGF and cease calling other editors dishonest, thus eliminating the need for a response that he may find offensive. In short, Play Nice, because your own offensive words(calling other editors a liar) may come back to haunt you when they present evidence to the contrary. Willietell (talk) 04:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

He was not 'defending himself against an accusation of being a liar'; the misleading selective quote itself constituted a lie, with no regard to the actual order of events or my actual conditional statement. I see no reason why I should put up with that, particularly when the statement was appended to 'discussion' that had ostensibly ended weeks ago. The underlying pattern of behaviour—that AuthorityTam uses any opportunity he can to attempt to discredit editors he believes to be former JWs—has not ceased. This matter will be considered unresolved until that occurs. As noted by JohnChrysostom above, AuthorityTam's response so far has simply been to 'lay low' during and shortly after the ANI process, and then return to the previous behaviour; he did this at the last ANI, and also did the same thing a couple of years ago when an admin instructed him to strike false statements about me at several AfDs (which he failed to do).--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:12, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Summary: Obviously, as User:Quinn1 post here, “this is no closer to a resolution than when it started.” and “but you guys are just going in circles here”. Is there anyone, (nonJWtopics' editor preferred), who can propose better solution than Quinn1 wrote here, simply “Everyone just try to play nicely together, m'kay?” If AuthorityTam and all others involved in JWtopics will trying to assume good faith and not focus on persons, but on content, there will be fewer ANIs needed in future. Perhaps none. --FaktneviM (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. If AuthorityTam ceases the behaviour, the matter will not need to return to ANI. What about the suggestions already made by User:JohnChrysostom (a "nonJWtopics' editor")?--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Incivility from Hearfourmewesique

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Someone needs to inform User:Hearfourmewesique that edit summary comments like this violate WP:CIV. This comes on the heels of a number of similar comments that aren't exactly in the spirit of CIV, as when he reacted to my removal of material plagiarized from another website without compliance with that site's license by citing citing WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM, and telling me that I should've paraphrased the material myself, even though I had already told him that I hadn't seen the episode. Thank you. Nightscream (talk) 22:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm very much more concerned about the editor's understanding of copyright than I am about some prickly edit summaries. Nevertheless, that particular issue has been resolved (the material lifted from Wikia has been rewritten), so unless there's evidence that Hearfourmewesique makes a habit of this then this is basically just a case of two editors who don't get along (and, based on the ANI last week, are both partially to blame). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:24, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I've simply had it with certain editors, some of whom are veteran and some of whom are even admins, that think that their job consists solely of sending other editors to "do their homework", forgetting that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort. I apologize for overstepping the WP:CIVIL boundaries, though.

• Side note: as noted on my talk page, I paraphrased the "lifted" text mainly by looking at it and using basic rewriting skills, something Nightscream could have done as well – the Wikia description is so detailed that it can suffice without having to watch the episode. Just more excuses, causing more frustration. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter whether Nightscream could have fixed it (and paraphrasing a huge chunk of someone else's text is not the easiest skill in the world, nor the most ethical in many cases). Editors should not be introducing text with permission / copyright problems in the first place, under any circumstances. While attracting and keeping contributors is vital, failing to respect copyright to the letter can kill the project and has to take precedence. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

So what is Misplaced Pages if not a collection of paraphrased chunks of other people's text? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 02:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Chris' point is that the text in question wasn't paraphrased.

Regarding the other matter, apology accepted; I hope we can continue to collaborate more positively from here on in. Take care. Nightscream (talk) 01:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Uncommunicative school project

For the last few weeks there has evidently been some kind of school or university project involving each student working on an article about an English village (identified as university coursework here: ; other articles include Stirchley, Shropshire, Clee St. Margaret, Waverton, Cumbria, Stanton upon Hine Heath, and many others). I haven't been able to find out what institution is doing this, but I have a guess it might be related to the geography department of Portsmouth University. This is certainly a great idea in general, and I'm very much of the opinion we should encourage and help this effort, but unfortunately many of the students involved have had problems with image uploads, some also with other copyright-related stuff. Many of them have been repeating the same errors: uploading non-free images of buildings or non-free chart graphics; re-uploading free images that already existed on Commons, and so on. Today, for the first time, I had to block one of them because he was re-uploading the same bad image multiple times.

What troubles me is that multiple members of this group have been curiously unresponsive to polite, friendly messages regarding the background of their project. I've been asking several of them to provide me with some contact address to get in touch with their supervisor, simply to get some advice about better image handling across to the group as a whole, but people keep simply ignoring my requests:

• HannahPeek (talk · contribs)
• Christopher Edward John Ellis (talk · contribs)
• Sophwelland (talk · contribs)
• Andrew Poyntz-Roberts (talk · contribs)

I'm really at a loss to understand what's going on. Have they decided among themselves that I'm their common enemy because they keep seeing my name in deletion messages? Could somebody else try to have a word with a few of them? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

For any students from this class that are reading this notice. Our goal here is to work with you and your professor to provide you with the resources and training that will help you succeed in editing our encyclopedia. We have an educational program that is designed to work with university classes for this purpose. The Wikimedia UK Chapter runs the program in your country and you can learn more about their efforts at this website: . If you don't feel comfortable letting us know what class you're in, please ask your professor to contact the Wikimedia UK chapter's education program using the information at the link provided. GabrielF (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, now you have an IP/possible sock that geolocates to University of Portsmouth, so at least that suspicion is confirmed. --64.85.220.145 (talk) 16:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

And one of the guys above who, instead of finally responding in some meaningful way, simply removes his name from the list above. Sigh. Are these university students? I sure hope the ones that I teach wouldn't react like that in such a situation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, at least now I'm in a dialogue with one of them. Maybe we're getting somewhere after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• When you're done with that, please look at the history of Urbanism. Unless you have a day job, of course. Drmies (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Urbanism should either be rolled back to a much earlier version, or AfD'd. I don't think it's salvageable in the condition its in without a massive amount of work. As it stands it's a horror which reflects very poorly on the encyclopedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

What about rolling it back to its 2004 creation, a redirect to Urban Planning?--Bbb23 (talk) 02:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I was very tempted to do that, but "urbanism" is much more of a sociological concept, and not really the same as urban planning. What I really think needs to happen is for someone with knowledge of the subject to go through the article mercilessly, trim it down, clean it up and rescue it from the students who are currently writing it. Unfortunately, that person is not me.

If there's no one around who can take on the task, then stubbing it or AfD'ing it are better alternatives than leaving it in place as is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

No way I would take that to AfD. Whenever I've taken messy articles to AfD on subjects as broad as that, I'm accused of not following notability guidelines. Stubbing it is a possibility. I'll wait and see if anyone else bites.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Another user, James Marwood (talk · contribs), just contacted me on my talk page and complained about a speedy deletion tag. The user mentioned a university project and the file is used in an article about an English village, so it seems to fit with the other users. I'm writing a reply there now. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:44, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, that's certainly one of the Portsmouth guys too. They're getting a bit nervous, it seems, because they have their deadline tomorrow. (I've now got a communication channel with them, and I'd be available if anybody else needs advice.) I'm only glad the "urbanism" page discussed above must be a different project. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I think I might have to add User:JoshuaEBarker to the list - I've just reverted a huge chunk of his work at Esh, County Durham, due to the fact that he had copy-pasted pretty much all of it directly from non-free sources. Has anyone emailed the professor yet? A number of these students are going to fail their course module due to his inadequate knowledge of Misplaced Pages. Yunshui 雲‍水 19:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a discussion with a teacher at User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise#Revised picture. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: notification of this discussion was left at Misplaced Pages:Education_noticeboard#University_of_Portsmouth_class. Dcoetzee 00:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Greyhood

I am beginning to become concerned with user:Greyhood, user primarily edits on Russian articles, is a frequent and consistent editor who removes sources, in favor of non-notable sources in order to confuse other users and push an agenda.

Replaced Current Facts with disputable info from a non- notable database; in fact its appearance on wiki violates the terms of use of the source. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Russia&diff=prev&oldid=487380845

User has removed references http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vladimir_Putin&diff=prev&oldid=489423788, a reference was inexplicably removed, this happened recently(apr.27)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Zhirinovsky%27s_ass This article was created by Greyhood and has sparked edit warring and unrest, because it is largely non encyclopedic, and reflects an overall agenda on Greyhood behalf.

en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive182 He has been the member of a dispute previously brought by user: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Malick78.

Was going to use subst:uw-nor, but instead ANI warningWrathofjames (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• Well, if I am not mistaken, the only interaction between you and Greyhood documented on his talk page is your notification of this ANI topic, which has a subtitle "Stop abusing Misplaced Pages". This is not exactly what the dispute resolution procedures advise you to do. I suggest that you follow the procedures first.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:56, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I looked over the offered differences briefly. I don't really see anything here that is blatantly controversial or tenacious. NickCT (talk) 19:17, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Me neither, for the record. I often have differences in opinions with Greyhood, especially concerning contemporary Russian politics, but I have never seen him edit-warring or replacing reliable sources with junk sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've had only positive experiences with Greyhood at ITN. Boomerang might be spinning round… —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 19:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• I looked at the diff you posted on Greyhood's talk page. I could not understand what you were objecting to. Perhaps if you explained to him on his/her talk page what it was that you objected to, it would give him/her the chance to explain. He/she does not bite. If you deal with him/her reasonably you will find that he/she is willing to compromise when he/she understands your objections (assuming your objections are reasonable and are backed by reliable sources). Sources need to be reliable sources. It is only the subjects of articles that need to be notable.

As for disputes about other articles, I did not see any edits by User:Wrathofjames to the article on Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video on the list of contributors. After discussion, the article has been stable since 9 April - the editors worked together to build a compromise. User:Wrathofjames's claims about User:Greyhood and that article assume bad faith. That is not OK. Other editors would not have spent their precious time working with Greyhood on that article if it had been as User:Wrathofjames said. I found Greyhood easy to deal with and willing to compromise.--Toddy1 (talk) 19:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• Re: the link on oil production in Russia. There is no convention that in the Russia article we should prefer CIA over other sources (CIA is mostly a nice collection of country data, but too often outdated). International Energy Agency is in fact a better source, more relevant to the energy stuff and providing more up-to-date reports.
• With Zhirinovsky video, the issues in that article have been long fixed via discussion and collaboration with other users. In Putin, one reference was already present in the section below, and the second reference was excessive since the fact of the oil price rise is already supported by other references. GreyHood 20:25, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Dale Chock

• Dale Chock (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Over at Russian phonology, user Dale Chock has been exhibiting a pattern of contentious and even disruptive edits for the last month. On April 6, he removed a paragraph describing a minority viewpoint. From his edit summary ("Delete a report of a maverick, mistake riddled proposal that was ignored by other specialists half a century ago"), it seemed that he mistakenly interpreted the paragraph to be about one source (Bidwell 1962) rather than multiple sources, as reflected in the citations. So I restored the paragraph with a POV-section tag and started a talk page discussion outlining my perspective. At first, Dale declined to contribute to this discussion and instead deleted the content again on April 19 and on April 22, which I restored with edit summaries pointing him to the talk page. When he finally contributed to the discussion two weeks after the dispute began, his behavior was inflammatory and rude, saying, "'AE' is pretending he's discussing theory. He has no understanding of the theory of any article he edits on languages or linguistics."

Subsequent to this talk page post, Dale immediately focused his attention on a new round of contentious deletions, specifically of two tables, which I restored. Again, his behavior in the talk page was problematic, not just because of unnecessary rudeness (such as saying "for AEsos to raise this objection only reaffirms his ignorance of even beginning Russian") but because his comments were aimed primarily at discrediting me rather than addressing my points. Focusing on content, not contributors, is a general problem of Dale's.

Even more disruptive, though, is Dale's practice of removing citation requests (which I have continually had to restore). Dale has also removed actual citations. In what seems like an attempt to discredit the above tables that he didn't like, he removed the citations that backed them up, citing an apparent error in the page range. However, edits just prior to this show him fixing the same page range error for another claim from the same source and even a talk page contribution explicitly shows that he has access to the source and knew the correct page range. Since it's clear that he knew where the tables were, his given reason for removing citations was a blatant case of dishonesty.

I'm not sure what sort of action would be appropriate. I've had issues with him at diasystem and diaphoneme, where his behavior was similar in that he would attempt to delete content and participate with hostility in the discussion page. I had even hoped that a community response from Wikiquette assistance might steer him in the right direction. His response in that conflict was to abandon the articles and put forth a manifesto on his user page where he seems to imply that he views civility to be at odds with concern for article quality. — Ƶ§œš¹ 20:07, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Note restored from archive. — Ƶ§œš¹ 01:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• I have had similar experiences which can be reviewed at the talkpages of talk:Nahuatl and talk:Otomi language.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:00, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Harassment by User:Andy Dingley

Please may some attention be given to persistent harassment received from this user

Initial trouble in Wikimedia Commons where Andy Dingley kept reverting my edits instantly using Twinkle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Eddaido#WP:3RR

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Eddaido#Attacks_on_other_editors_in_edit_summaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Andy_Dingley/Archive_2012_March#re_Samblob

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bentley_8_Litre&diff=next&oldid=484140874

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Eddaido#Repeated_attacks_on_other_editors

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive117#General_hostility_from_User:Eddaido.2C_with_edit-warring_and_attacks

This is done in the hope it will lead to a full review of the circumstances. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 00:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'm still looking at the information you have provided, but for the sake of clarity, what is the result you are seeking here? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this —just an end to their behaviours. Eddaido (talk) 09:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Ahem. How is it, Eddaido, that you are not yet blocked for acting like a total jerk? Hounding other editors, being uncivil in edit summaries, removing others' talk page comments? Drmies (talk) 01:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Heh, I'm trying to understand how any of the diffs Eddaido posted above support his contention or help him at all. Indeed, no doubt Drmies found support for his criticism of Eddaido from Eddaido's diffs. That's worse than WP:BOOMERANG - more like a dog (pun intended) chasing his own tail while looking in the mirror.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• You missed a few

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Norah,_Lady_Docker&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mini_%28marque%29&diff=prev&oldid=483972348

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive179#User:Eddaido_reported_by_User:Andy_Dingley_.28Result:_declined.29

Andy Dingley (talk) 09:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Drmies has a very valid point and echos my initial concerns. Andy has taken you to a couple of different venues where no action was taken. 3RR I understand why, Wikiquette, I don't. His threshold may be a bit too low, but his concerns are well founded. Eddaido, words mean things, and you seem to have a lack of concern about how your words affect others. Either you lack an understanding of, or willingness to comply with our standards of civility. This is why I asked for clarity, to see how delusional you were in this situation. Fortunately, your answer fills me with hope since you weren't asking for his head on a platter. The problem here is your behavior, not Andy's. It is simply unacceptable to talk down to people and rudely reply to them in this manner. More importantly, you seem like an intelligent person, so surely you know that it isn't effective to persuade others to see your point of view. If you need help to communicate better, ask for help. If you don't immediately change the way you communicate your differences, however, I don't see good things happening to you here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 13:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention and your time. I am going to be more direct, this may take me some hours. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 01:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Over the past six months I have discovered Andy Dingley is very jealous of his accuracy (who isn't?) and doesn't care to recognize his mistakes, very sensitive on that. I fell foul of SamBlob more recently and discovered he was not amenable to rational discussion on talk pages so I stopped responding and watched him devoting himself to setting to work to tackle my edits and I let him run. When he tackled Bentley 8-litre I felt it was time to make the point that he is short on knowledge and equally short of sources. So I rejoiced in correcting his, no doubt good faith, bad edits to Bentley 8-litre and when I had made my points I put in my edit summary the description 'the dogging editor' using upper-case and starred it in case there should be the very smallest chance of it being overlooked - though it was apparently - by him and I saw this as a clear admission of guilt. Am I wrong? Thereafter I again let him run, all through the articles I had recently edited. I made occasional reverts in case he thought I was not looking. I too am mystified that Andy Dingley could do no more than his warnings (ignored) and finally a complaint on Etiquette. But you see there is a particular synchronicity between editors. SamBlob even sailed into the 16th and 18th centuries just for me.

So my complaint is long-running Wikihounding and contentious edits and notes of citations required made by SamBlob supported by Andy Dingley. Should I quote the diffs for the long blocks of SamBlob's edits concerned - their enthusiasm corresponds neatly with Andy Dingley's pronouncements etc.

Eddaido (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Viriditas and User:Anupam

Hello, I am writing here to inform the reviewing administrator of a threat made against me here by Viriditas (talk · contribs). This individual has followed me to several articles in the last few months where he has not been an editor, including Big Bang, as well as recently Effects of cannabis. In addition, this individual has unfairly placed warnings on my talk page, stating that I have "plagiarised" material (Exhibit One, Exhibit Two), despite the fact that I always provide a source for my additions. User:Viriditas has been warned by other editors that his accusations are incorrect, but he still persists. In addition, the individual in question stated that I improperly used the rollback feature, despite the fact that I reverted my use of rollback because I accidentally clicked the rollback button and could not stop the rollback in time (I was informed that rollback is to be only used for vandalism on 22 April). I understand that User:Viriditas might be a valuable contributor to the encyclopedia, but I think it is in the best interest of both of us that an interaction ban be set between us. I have tried several times to discuss issues with this user nicely but he is always hostile to me in his comments and replies. Thank you for taking the time to read this message and consider my request. Best wishes, Anupam 04:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid that none of that is true, Anupam. I have not followed you anywhere; if anything, your recent edits to the cannabis topic was a form of baiting on your part, as I was active on the talk page right before you showed up to disrupt the article with the same plagiarism you were previously warned about in regards to the Big Bang related set of articles. In other words, you were hounding and baiting me with more of the same policy violating edits, and I think you deserve a long block for it. Viriditas (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment This appears to be an attempt by Anupam to "head 'em off at the pass", as Viriditas notified Anupam that he would be filing an ANI report less than half an hour prior to Anupam's report: aprock (talk) 04:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Anupam mentions in his comment to which Viriditas replies that he was planning on seeking an interaction ban and I'm guessing that he just wanted to deal with the situation and so decided to escalate. I don't think he is the type of editor who thinks in terms of "heading them off at the pass." I've disagreed with Anupam a lot, actually I can't think of a time where I agreed, but one thing I can say about him is that he has always maintained civility and acted in good faith. I would be surprised if it was different here. Not commenting on the case in general, just wanted to throw this in. SÆdon 04:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Anupam pulled the exact same stunt against me: I notify: 06:28, 27 September 2011, he preemptively files 07:12, 27 September 2011. Given his history of disruptive editing, there is little reason to assume good faith here. aprock (talk) 05:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

A review of Viriditas' edits shows that he has indeed been following Anupam around for months. And V has been warned. Does it rise to a level of WP:HOUND? Before Viriditas can be blocked, there would have to be a showing that Anupam's enjoyment of editing has been adversely affected. While it is obvious that V is following Anupam, Anupam has not shown "distress." If Anupam has evidence that he has been distressed, then V should be blocked. In the meantime we should move to put in place a I-ban.– Lionel 05:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

"A review of Viriditas' edits shows that he has indeed been following Anupam around for months."'

• Hardly : Viriditas↔Anupam. 

"And V has been warned."

• By? Diff?

"Does it rise to a level of WP:HOUND? ... While it is obvious that V is following Anupam, Anupam has not shown "distress." If Anupam has evidence that he has been distressed, then V should be blocked."

• Try reading this part of WP:HOUND again "The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." (i.e. just to be a dick.)

With all due respect Counselor, this sounds a lot like you jumping to Anupam's defense with little or no supporting policy or evidence (and not for the first time Anupam↔Lionelt). —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how Anupam has managed to escape being blocked with their combative style of editing and their filing ANI grievances that never come to anything. Drmies (talk) 05:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

(I wanted to post this on Anupam's page rather than here, but he removed the thread there). I can't speak to the mutual charges of hounding (in particular, I've been unable to figure out what incident "I commented on the talk page and then you showed up to edit" was meant to refer to). About the plagiarism issue: first, I must note that in the cited instance of Gandalf61's objections against Viriditas' earlier warnings I'm with Viriditas. Plagiarism applies not just to the appropriation of ideas and thoughts, but also to the appropriation of their expression. When somebody literally copies a substantial piece of text and then adds a footnote to the source, the footnote alone only tells the reader that the facts are taken from that source, but not that the literal expression is taken from it too. Thus, the use of the literal expression remains unattributed and hence may constitute plagiarism. Applying this to the "cannabis" edits at question here , we have a borderline case: taking over a literal passage without marking it as a quotation, adding a footnote, and then repeating the original literal text as an explicit quote inside the footnote, may be seen as narrowly escaping the plagiarism charge. It is, however, very poor academic writing. What's so difficult about writing a proper paraphrase instead? Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

What is difficult about it, is that Anupam refuses to do it. He is a serial plagiarizer. Simply look at his most recent contributions to Conservapedia. They are all copy and paste jobs taken directly from books, without any quotations or attributions.Here is a recent edit where he plagiarized p. 70 in Kinnear 2011. He continues to do this on Misplaced Pages after being asked to stop. I don't see this as "borderline", it is his primary editing style and he refuses to stop. How many contributions has he made to Misplaced Pages that consist of nothing but copy and paste jobs without quotes or attribution? Yes, he adds citations, but the content is not his own nor clearly marked as that of another author. Viriditas (talk) 10:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

There was a previous incident with Anupam in mid-February, which led to the proposal of a topic ban at WP:AN (for Anupam and Lionelt, commenting above). That report does not seem to have been archived properly, so here is a historic link. Mathsci (talk) 06:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

How has anupam avoided a block for their long-term civil pov-pushing? (And apparent sockpuppetry last year) bobrayner (talk) 08:23, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Bobrayner, you have accused me of sockpuppetry two times for two different users (one being an SPA, and another being an administrator) and yet, despite me and administrator User:Master of Puppets encouraging you to pursue WP:SPI, you have never done so. I would highly appreciate if you could please stop making baseless accusations when you have not even pursued the proper venue for your claims. Once again, please do not try to frame me; if you have legitimate concerns, pursue them at the proper department. I will provide you with a quote that might help you understand why I feel so hurt when you speak this way of me: “It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you’ll do things differently.” ~Warren Buffet I hope you understand my concerns. Thanks for your understanding. With regards, Anupam 09:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Could we please deal with your accusations against me, first? You say I followed you to several articles, most recently effects of cannabis. Do you have any evidence? Viriditas (talk) 09:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, viriditas, for distracting from the current problem. I agree that it should be dealt with. However, pre-emptive attack is nothing new here.

In response to anupam: I posted a very large collection of deeply suspicious diffs surrounding the Militant Atheism article. They were removed repeatedly. Other dissent with anupam's position was also shut down (although thankfully the community has now prevailed and the awful pov-pushing content has been removed). At that time, I was quite convinced that if I raised an SPI, that too would be shut down promptly; and I was very stressed due to the pov-pushing and the messages I was getting, so I didn't push the point any further. Would you like me to present the evidence again here? it seems like an appropriate venue. I'd be happy to offer a big stack of diffs for which sockpuppetry is the only sane explanation. Of course, if you could offer some alternative explanation, that would be welcome too. Calling them baseless accusations is just another lie; just another pre-emptive attack against somebody who has evidence of long-term problematic editing. bobrayner (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Bob, have you looked closely at the diffs to see if the content was copied directly from cited sources without quotes or attribution? Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree; there does seem to be very liberal copying of text. (Sorry for the derail; my main concern was about pov-pushing, and sock-puppetry and canvassing to further that pov-pushing rather than the plagiarism per se) bobrayner (talk) 11:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Another issue: even after the problem was pointed out to him earlier in March, Anupam is continuing to import non-neutral, polemical Conservapedia content into Misplaced Pages in extremely sneaky ways. For example, on April 11, Anupam copied content from Conservapedia's Atheism and health article and added it to Misplaced Pages's article on Religion. This content was plagiarized from the Mayo Clinic without any inline quotes or attribution. On the same day, he again copied content from Conservapedia's Atheism and health article, but this time rewrote it, and added it to the Misplaced Pages article on Suicide. Along with the previously mentioned problems with copying and pasting unquoted and unattributed material, the problem of Anupam continuing to add Conservapedia content to Misplaced Pages has not yet been addressed. The pattern that I've observed over several months appears to be obvious. When Anupam copies over Conservapedia content to a single article on Misplaced Pages, it generally gets deleted and his edits are reverted. However, he has discovered a way around this problem. Instead of copying over the entire article, what he has been doing instead is copying over small sentences and paragraphs, and then distributing (merging) Conservapedia's content to multiple articles so as not to draw any attention. In this way, the content which would otherwise not be appropriate for Misplaced Pages on a single article or topic is preserved by placing it in many different articles and topics in smaller chunks so as not to attract attention, and amounts to a sneaky method of proselytizing. This is what he did when he added off-topic material about "atheism and the suppression of science" from Conservapedia to Misplaced Pages. It was deleted, but Anupam salvaged it when nobody was looking by adding it in small chunks to religious interpretations of the Big Bang theory. Viriditas (talk) 11:18, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• More recent plagiarism in creation and evolution in public education in the United States. Anupam writes: "Two other states, Louisiana and Mississippi, have adopted legislation allowing teachers and students to discuss scientific evidence critical of Darwin’s theory." The source (Discovery Institute) writes: "Two other states, Louisiana and Mississippi, have adopted legislation protecting the academic freedom of teachers and students to discuss scientific evidence critical of Darwin’s theory." Viriditas (talk) 11:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

There's compelling evidence in this thread that Anupam has problems with plagiarism/copyright violation and if this doesn't stop immediately he should be blocked. Because of his plagiarism, and because of the POV-pushing that Viriditas documents above, I find the charges of stalking unpersuasive—Anupam clearly needs to be monitored, and any problematic edits he made need to be ameliorated or eliminated. So if Viriditas has been checking regularly on Anupam's edits, that's a good thing. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

My impression is that Anupam is either unaware of or unwilling to respect the differences in goals and standards between Misplaced Pages and Conservapedia. Much of his editing gives the impression of searching for increasingly roundabout ways to import Conservapedia content onto Misplaced Pages.

His use of sources also seems ideologically driven in the extreme; the content about suicide and atheism is a classic illustration. The cited source states that "atheist" countries are "the healthiest and wealthiest nations on Earth", and that a country's level of atheism is correlated with higher development, lower infant mortality, less poverty, fewer homicides, and greater gender equality. The only metric by which atheist countries fare worse than "religious" countries is suicide rate. The authors conclude:

In sum, with the exception of suicide, countries marked by high levels of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on Earth, while societies characterized by nonexistent rates of organic atheism are among the most unhealthy.

How does Anupam use that source? By going to suicide and prominently linking it to atheism. Note that while the source clearly correlates atheism with societal health, Anupam cherry-picks the one isolated factoid which correlates atheism with societal dysfunction and presents it in isolation. Note the cherry-picked quote in the footnote.

That's textbook: he's mining these sources to advance his personal viewpoint, rather than respecting the actual content and context of the source and presenting it appropriately. For another example of questionable use of sources, see this thread, where I presented my concerns in table form. Because Anupam is unfailingly civil, I doubt that his ideologically driven editing or questionable use of sources will ever result in sanctions. Certainly his civility has so far trumped all content-related concerns, as is typically the case here, but still. MastCell  16:44, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• We need much better tools to combat this exact kind of intellectually dishonest but civil pov pushing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand quite well the difference between the standards in Conservapedia and Misplaced Pages, the former favouring a conservative point of view in its articles, and the latter favouring a neutral point of view. The sources I place in articles are academic sources and I always provide the original quotation upon which I base my writing. If one looks at the talk page on the Religion article, one can note that there are comments stating that the article seems to focus on the criticism of religion; adding a statement on the positive health benefits of religion, supported by a reference from the Mayo Clinic, is not POV pushing, it is adding valuable information to the article. Contrary to what User:Viriditas stated, I did attribute the quotation and even placed the quote parameter around the information I added (verify). Similarly, with the study on atheism, the source is from the The Cambridge Companion to Atheism and it states:

Concerning suicide rates, religious nations fare better than secular nations. According to the World Health Organization's report on international male suicide rates, of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. Of the top remaining nine nations leading the world in male suicide rates, all are former Soviet/Communist nations, such as Belarus, Ukraine, and latvia. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism.

This is the information that I inserted in the article? I am not sure why that is POV pushing? User:MastCell, I understand that there were other conclusions about atheism in that reference but why are they relevant to an article on Suicide? I would appreciate if you pleased assumed good faith here. Thanks, Anupam 17:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Administrator User:Akhilleus, thank your for your comments here. I see that you have written that you do see problems with plagiarism in my work at Misplaced Pages. I want to take the time to humbly apologize before you and others here, including User:Viriditas, for doing so. I stand corrected and am sorry for my actions. This was never my intention, as I only desired to make a summary of the references I used, in order to meet WP:V. I never realized that my work constituted plagiarism. I firmly commit to using my quotation parameters and paraphrasing the content more than I have before. In light of these events, I will be taking a break from Misplaced Pages for a while. I hope you all have a nice day. With regards, Anupam 17:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

In this edit Anupam clearly demonstrates an inability to see how his editing of the Suicide article represents cherry picking. While Anupam claims to understand that Misplaced Pages is meant to be a neutral source of information, his inability to recognize his own POV pushing is very problematic. While he may be editing in good faith in an attempt to edit neutrally, this clearly demonstrates that he is not capable of doing such. Given that he cannot even recognize his disruptive editing, apologies are not going to solve the problem. Given how long this disruptive editing has been going on, with no improvement despite dozens of apologies, I think it's time to reflect on this editors role in the project. aprock (talk) 18:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, the apology is very polite, but fails to address the important issue of biased editing. Given that this user has been here since 2006 and has a history of problematic editing (as has been shown in this thread), I'm not optimistic that he's going to alter his ways now. Perhaps we should discuss a topic ban. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand. Every one of my edits uses a reliable source and contains verifiable information. If there is ever a content dispute, I discuss the issue on the talk page and open up an RfC to gain input from the community. I always accept the decision of the community no matter what. I was very sincere in my apology and I do not think this will be necessary. It would be very devastating to me to be banned from articles of my interest, especially when I have been polite and willing to discuss my contributions. I would appreciate if you could please reconsider your comment. I would highly appreciate it. With regards, Anupam 19:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Using a reliable source is not enough when you use it to say the opposite of what is clearly the authors intention when read in context. Selectively quoting information in the way you have done is intellectually dishonest whether or not it is done on purpose. You must understand that if you wish to edit neutrally. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, boy. Having read through this thread and gone over all the diffs I see we have a real problem here. The plagiarism is obviously a major issue, but now that we know about it we can simply enforce Anupam's future avoidance of plagiarism with escalating blocks. The wider issue is the civil POV-pushing. I guess we could consider a topic-ban, but the major problem I see with this is selecting a topic. Religion? Science? Topics that would conventionally be of interest to someone who edits Conservapedia? I guess the latter, but good luck defining it. We could community ban, and I wouldn't be unhappy with such at outcome at all, but it seems a shade harsh right now and I don't think it would get consensus anyway ATM.

• Perhaps some kind of probation and custom-tailored editing restriction? I guess we could form some kind of collective mentorship agreement, whereby a group of sysops get together to monitor Anupam, have the authority to impose blocks/bans/further restrictions on him, and who he can come to for advice? I guess the question with this is whether we'll get enough out of it to be worth the time.

• The other problem is we're not quite sure whether or not he has been socking and generally editing in bad faith. If he has been then we should probably default to community ban right now. Perhaps bobrayner could post the diffs and we can have a look and try to put the pieces of the puzzle together, or send them off for checkuser. Best, Moreschi (talk) 21:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Moreschi, I would be happy to have a group of administrators monitor me and let me know if I have problems with my edits. Once again, any time there has ever been a dispute, I take the time to discuss it with others, and start and RfC to gain wider input. I always accept community consensus on the issue. I would be glad to work with a group of sysops on articles. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 21:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• From recent experience on Atheism it is apparent he is a (mostly) civil POV pusher. He tried to insert a cherry picked single analysis (it wasn't actually a study) which suited his POV to try and offset a meta-analysis of no less than 43 studies, 39 of which favoured the opposite conclusion (on religion and intelligence correlations). (There are many more in the literature too) Promptly another editor reverted the addition, asking him to take it to the talk page. Anupam reverted this editor twice: even though being asked to specifically gain consensus. Then user User:Justice007 jumped in to Anupam's rescue with two more reverts with the comment of "What is than WP:NPOV ??." . (I note that Justice007 made no constructive comments beyond being borderline incoherent: ). Even though it was obvious that a single study had no due weight beside a meta-analysis. Anupam tried to justify including an uncited paper by citing, amongst others, the daily mail and "Christian Post", I think it's clear to any wikipedia editor that these won't help give it due weight. Anupam also hid the daily mail behind a link naming it as "The Telegraph": . Here is the discussion: Talk:Atheism#Study. After only 8 and a half hours after his first comment he started an RfC (aren't RfC's meant to be discussed before being started?); this seems extremely premature to me in any discussion. During the RfC Anupam appeared to have decided that a particular adminstrator would close the RfC although it seems he was not aware of this promise: User_talk:Kuru#RfC_at_Atheism. Anupam also appears to not have grasped basic guidelines and policies, when i quoted WP:N verbatim , he replied with "I respect your opinion, but disagree with it" . I find it very hard to believe that an editor with 15 thousand edits confuses notability with due weight. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I have created numerous articles here on Misplaced Pages and have helped many editors out, in addition to improving the quality of several articles here. I do not appreciate the misrepresentation of my desire to discuss with other editors and conduct an RfC to gain input from the community. For example, stating that I intentionally labelled a Daily Mail article as an article from The Telegraph, despite the fact that I thanked User:IRWolfie for pointing out the error, is wrong and a clear attempt to defame me. I have been polite and respectful to everyone and am hurt by the lack of compassion and understanding here. If you or any of the others start a process to "topic ban" me, I would rather quit editing Misplaced Pages and retire instead. So please let me know if you follow through and I will be gone. Thanks, Anupam 00:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is why I said you were a civil POV pusher (the mostly was for the edit warring). Your thanks is fully consistent with being a civil POV pusher. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:12, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I was just about to suggest moving toward starting up a topic ban discussion on AN. There seems to be some consensus that your editing has been disruptive and tendentious, both from this discussion and earlier ones. I have to concur, but think that it is no longer productive to discuss the matter here on ANI instead of discussing an actual topic ban on AN. In fact, the only thing holding me back is that there is no clear picture of what your topic ban should entail. I'm thinking an indefinite ban on all topics related to religion/atheism and controversial social and political issues, very broadly construed? Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, I don't think we can take Anupam's apology at face value. e.g. in the Kashmir article he had copy-pasted whole scale from sources and was informed of this issue on July 7 2011 when the content was removed (July 7). He did not respond to the warning, instead, he goes in adds it back to the article after a month (Aug 7). After a month, quite obviously copyvio cleaners aren't watching the article as they deal with way too many, so this one has now stood within the article until now. This is highly irresponsible behavior from someone and these sugar laced apologies do not justify it. —SpacemanSpiff 04:17, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Threats to quit aren't constructive either, and more importantly aren't binding. If a topic ban is to be initiated then that should happen regardless of whether Anupam sticks a {{retired}} up this week or not. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 07:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I shouldn't have to dig this up again, but claims that anupam made in this thread are totally incompatible with the available evidence. bobrayner (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Bob, in your opinion, does this look like the work of a fanatical hobbyist with too much time on his hands, or a paid editor working on behalf of a special interest group? I ask, because when one talks about job losses and unemployment, the word "devastating" is used quite a bit. Up above, Anupum said, "It would be very devastating to me to be banned from articles of my interest..." I found that wording very unusual, as in normal discourse, the use of that word is associated with the loss of one's paid profession. I also find much of Anupam's so-called civility to be more artificial than natural in tone. Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't like to guess whether this kind of editing is driven by personal interest or pay. That's a whole new can of worms and - though I respect you as an editor - I think it could distract from the main problem; bad editing is bad editing, regardless of what motivates it. Civility of long-term problematic editors could be viewed simply as an evolutionary artefact; if an editor pov-pushes and is rude/abrasive, they are strongly selected against in our current ecosystem, whilst somebody who pov-pushes and says "please" and "thankyou" is much more likely to survive each AN/I thread unscathed. bobrayner (talk) 09:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, let's not go down this road. Viriditas' speculation about things being "devastating" is less than convincing. Viriditas, please don't sideline the discussion with that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree, I think speculating on whether or not an editor is paid is pointless. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:40, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• That's a lot of coincidences. Well, I've been through the diffs Bob posted and I'm fairly well convinced that Turnalso is a sock/meatpuppet of Anupam, but what do others think on this one? Bob, you mentioned other SPA accounts - would you mind listing them here? Don't bother doing diff-by-diff analysis for these if you have better things to be doing, we can probably work through them ourselves. Moreschi (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

In my experience, Anupum has definitely been prone to plagiarism and at the very least of inadequate or misleading sourcing. I've pulled him up on it several times in the last couple of years (eg https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/Talk:Militant_atheism/Archive_3#Quoted_material_not_in_quote_marks), so his claim here that he "didn't realise" is not credible. I can't speak to the other allegations. --143.52.87.123 (talk) 10:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: I have participated in some RfCs initiated by Anupam, and as far as I saw, he behaved the way he claims, contributing in a civil manner to discussions, and not contesting their outcome. There were obviously disagreements during these discussions, but this happens in most disputes requiring a RfC. While I do not deny that Anupam has done some obvious mistakes previously, I nonetheless think there has been too much bad faith assumed about his actions, and a permanent topic ban looks far too harsh in my opinion, especially for someone who contributed on many articles, as well as writting new ones. I think Moreschi's suggestion, to have Anupam monitored by a group of administrators, could be a more constructive solution. Cody7777777 (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

A few of his group are great contributers elsewhere, which makes sock-puppetry unlikely. We could file an SPI, but I also don't think Anupam is careless enough to have used multiple accounts from one IP. I think this is a case of meatpuppetry; users are being recruited either through email, personal contact, or a private forum. This behavior is disruptive for numerous reasons, including the often unmentioned issue of editor retention. Anupam has driven me away from numerous areas of the project very directly, and decreased my editing and motiviation to continue editing anywhere. I'm sure I'm not alone. Allowing this behavior to continue drives away productive, actually collaborative editors. That he says "Hope that helps", apologizes without understanding the issues or changing his behavior, threatens to retire to avoid sanctions, or what-have-you, should in no way be taken into account when determining if sanctions should be imposed. I'd like to see this handled, finally... after all the ANI threads, drama and disruption, we need to deal with this and move on. Can someone post a formal request for sanctions (whatever those may be) here or at AN? Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Blanket removals of refs as "Not RS per RSN" (Moved from WP:RS/N)

I raised this yesterday as I see it as a broad issue for WP:RS cleanup and certainly not an issue with any particular editor. However it was closed there as an "Editor conduct issue" and a move to WP:ANI suggested.

User:Fladrif and blanket removal as "Not RS per RSN"

Fladrif (talk · contribs) is blanket removing sources from a large range of articles. thepeerage.com is one, spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk another.

Without any personal comment on Fladrif, I have a basic distrust of any crusade edits like this. Human editors are needed to be editors, exercising some sort of executive judgement. This blanket removal is the sort of change that could be carried out by a very small Perl script. If it's really required, then it's required - but that's only in the very worst cases, such as outright spam. In particular, this run of edits (based on the unrelated dimension of a host site) inevitably crosses many disciplines of content knowledge. Personally I just edit the stuff that I know about and I stay the hell away from anything else. Problems arise otherwise.

There is no attempt here to find other sourcing for a statement. As the end result of these is to turn a statement with a less than perfect source to one with no source at all, I'm finding it hard to see an overall benefit.

I also find this absolutely strict imposal of "Not RS per RSN, therefore immediate removal of the ref" to be simplistic.

One risk is that content that is entirely uncontroversial finds itself dereferenced (when in fact there are many, many sources for the same information) and then that information is in turn removed. Given the interminable WP problem of editors looking for adminishtrivia that can be done, rather than things that ought to be done, the likelihood is that we eventually lose content and articles for no good reason.

Is this an appropriate blanket edit to be performing? What are the set of sites that should be purged absolutely like this? Is that list visible and appropriate? Is this the best, or even an acceptable, editing action to be taking in this volume? Andy Dingley (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

There have been extensive and definitive discussions about these sources. They are self-published sources written by amateurs who are not established experts, and have never been published by reputable, third party publications within the scope of the relevant subject matter. The clear and unequivocal consensus is that they are not reliable sources and should not be used as references; at most they can be listed as External Links. After that process is completed, one can hardly be heard to object to the removal of references to such sources; those that are interested in the subject matter will indeed need to find sources that do qualify as reliable sources lest, at some point in time, the material be deleted for lack of verifiable support. There are literally tens of thousands of articles on Misplaced Pages, most of them written several years ago when it was not nearly as vigilant about sourcing, that rely heavily, if not exclusively, on online, self-published amateur websites specifically determined at WP:RSN not to be proper sources that are more convenient than actually going to a library for sources that actually qualify as reliable sources. If there are such sources, then find them and insert them as appropriate. Asserting that WP:RS and WP:V should be ignored in the meanwhile to permit sourcing to such sites notwithstanding determination at WP:RSN that they cannot be used as sources simply because "a poor source is better than no source" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise these policies are meaningless. Fladrif (talk) 15:46, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

100% agree that thepeerage.com is not a WP:RS and agree with actions to remove the cites to thepeerage.com from articles, especially from WP:BLP articles. There have indeed been several discussions about amateur self-published sites like thepeerage.com, please look at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_114#thepeerage.com and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_103#Self-published_royalty_websites. These web sites do not meet WP:RS, plain and simple. These sites may be helpful in doing research, because they sometimes site a genuine WP:RS reliable source for their information, but then the Misplaced Pages article should cite the WP:RS and not thepeerage.com or other amateur sites like it. Zad68 (talk) 16:01, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

No-one is asserting that WP:RS or WP:V should be ignored (nice use of the straw man argument there, and I see that you've already snagged one).

However your actions here, particularly that of removing sources rather than improving them, are contra to WP:IMPERFECT and WP:PRESERVE. It would be better to replace these sources with better ones. It would be better to work so that others might do this, perhaps by tagging the references as unreliable and in need of improvement. Simply removing them blindly is more harmful to the overall encyclopedia than I believe is necessary. In particular (and this happens with every crusade like this) it overwhelms the editor subject or project groups that might work to improve these articles by the sheer rate at which they're removed. It's the wiki equivalent of seagull management - an editor that flies across a series of articles, breaks one aspect of them (if nothing else, it opens them to summary deletion for being unreferenced) and there is no intention of that editor ever fixing the real problem. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

No content was removed, so there is no violation, in either letter or spirit to the subsections of WP:Editing policy cited, and a certain delicious irony to citing an unsourced article in support of this untenable position. Fladrif (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Remember: information not attributed to a reliable source shouldn't be here in the first place. When Fladrif removes a citation to one of these pages, he's not diminishing the quality of the page, as an unreliable source isn't any better than no source at all. Nyttend (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

"information not attributed to a reliable source shouldn't be here in the first place."

Then if that's the strict interpretation, then the information should be removed too. Even if this blanks the article, even if causes prompt deletion of the article. We only rarely do this much, even for BLPs.

I'm not claiming that unsourced information should survive or that un-RS should be used to support it. However how do we get from where we are, to where we ought to be? I don't believe this route of expeditiously removing sources is an appropriate or the most effective way of achieving this. A smart editor would first try to find a way to manage this process so that the best result was achieved. A wiki editor instead favours finding something simple that can be done, doing lots of it, then hiding behind WP:ALLCAPS to justify what they've already done. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

If our overriding aim, second only to immortality, is to have no information on Misplaced Pages that is not attributed to a reliable source, then, as we remove references to unreliable sources, we must at the same time remove any information that by our action becomes totally unsourced. Otherwise -- is Nyttend denying this? mistakenly, I think -- we are lowering the quality of Misplaced Pages and making our aim unachievable. We will, at the end of the process, have a slightly smaller encyclopedia and we will know even less than before about the source and reliability of the information we haven't yet deleted.

If, of course, we have some other aims as well, we might consider how those other aims are best served before cutting down this forest. I think I'm just saying in another way what Andy has said. Andrew Dalby 14:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

We have two goals here:

The important one is to have RS sourcing on articles.

The secondary one is to remove non-RS sourcing from articles.

It is a mistake to mis-prioritise these, such that removing that non-RS takes over and we're left with nothing instead. My big problem with this bulk removal is that it does the second, but absolutely nothing to either attempt the first, or to encourage others to work on it. Tag these non-RS refs as "unreliable, please improve" by all means - but simply removing them and then halting the process does absolutely nothing to improve our overall situation, re the first and more important goal. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Rather than considering one of your goals primary and one secondary, I consider them to exist concurrently, and I think an argument could be made that unreliable sourcing is worse than no sourcing at all and should be considered a higher priority...editors are less likely to look for RS for something that appears to already be properly sourced, and not all editors may realize when a source is not reliable. In any case, how is progress being halted? Nothing is stopping any editor who is so inclined from providing proper sourcing. Granted the information might be removed for lacking sourcing in the future, but I think most editors would be more inclined to tag it than delete it. Speaking of which, have you asked Fladrif whether they would be willing to tag the information when they remove unreliable sources? Doniago (talk) 16:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not "most editors" that are the problem, but a handful of the "most active editors". Normal editors, those interested in contributing content, just can't keep up. It's always quicker to delete than to add, so eventually WP reaches a dynamic equilibrium - take a look at Land speed record for possibly the worst example. Changing the ratios might push this equilibrium a bit higher, but to be honest my enthusiasm for playing Maxwell's daemon to the regular bunch of teenage admin wannabees is limited. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

There's a facility here, that "all information must be sourced". WP:V's lead states this: It must be possible to attribute all information in Misplaced Pages to reliable, published sources that are appropriate for the content in question. However, in practice it is only necessary to provide inline citations for quotations and for any information that has been challenged or that is likely to be challenged.. Thus, if the information is non-contentious (read: obvious) but sourced to non-RS sources, the removal of the non-RS citation should not affect the retention of the information.

That said, I'm not seeing an ANI issue here. --MASEM (t) 14:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

We're missing something bigger. The implied policy used to justify the removal behavior does not exist. WP:ver, even strictly read and rigorously implemented is a sourcing requirement for material. There is no prohibition against the presence of references that do not meet wp:rs criteria, just a statement that they do not count towards the material meeting the verifiability requirement. North8000 (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The notion that it is perfectly acceptable to populate an article with sources definitively determined at WP:RSN to violate the requirements of WP:RS is a non-starter. Such sources should be removed, and that is the routine outcome of most RSN discussions. In BLP's non-RS sources and SPS are mandated to be removed immediately and summarily per WP:BLPREMOVE. The unfortunate circumstance that some sources that should never have been permitted in the first place have been cited hundreds, or thousands of times (over 10,000 times in the case of findagrave.com - the worst example I have found so far), does not change the requirements of WP:RS and WP:V or excuse the use of such sources in violation of those policies.Fladrif (talk) 14:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

No-one is "populating an article" with dubious sources. The situation is that we already have such sources, and we ought to decide what the best way is to improve this situation. Nor are these BLPs. Over-hasty removal does not appear to be the best way to proceed. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anything "over-hasty" or improper about removing unreliable sources. I do it all the time if the source is, say, IMDb or a wiki. If you have a problem with removing them, do you have ideas for an alternate approach? Doniago (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

As with many other "rules" in Misplaced Pages, the majority of sources in Misplaced Pages do not comply with a strict interpretation of Wp:RS. That is how Misplaced Pages works. When someone goes on a unlaterial harsh "enforcement" binge based on a rigorous interpretation of a rule, they are going contrary to that and being destructive. North8000 (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that the sources were previously established to be unreliable, and Fladrif consequently removed the source but left the information intact. I don't see how removing an unreliable source, whether on an indivdual basis or in bulk, qualifies as a 'harsh "enforcement" binge' or "destructive". I'd regard the matter differently if the information itself was being removed, and ideally it would be nice if Fladrif tagged the information, but I don't really understand your apparent view that Fladrif's behavior is disruptive. Doniago (talk) 17:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Genealogical editors have had quite some time to correct their referencing in relation to this matter. The suggestion that outstanding flaws in verification should be let stand after considerable time is an invitation to the creation of walled gardens. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

North8000 this, "There is no prohibition against the presence of references that do not meet wp:rs criteria" is a truly astounding comment. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

As nobody's brought it up yet, might I suggest removing the unreliable source and tagging the information for needing a citation if an editor is unwilling or unable to provide a citation themselves? Doniago (talk) 14:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Who's "the editor" here? This blanket removal doesn't really have an editor, it's just mindless 'bot work, albeit being carried out by a human. That was my first comment - real "editing" involves a human editor prepared to make decisions and choices, including the addition of new sources. None of that is going on here. Nor is this process even moving articles towards the worklists of other editors so that they can fix them instead (although I recognise that I don't have worklists on WP anyway, nor can I hire & fire editors). Andy Dingley (talk) 14:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

If Fladrif is the one removing the unreliable sources, then my approach would have been to gently ask that Fladrif place CN tags in place of the removed refs (while recognizing that Fladrif is not required to do so). Regardless of best or nicest practice, no editor is under any obligation to do research for sources, and IMO while it's reasonable to ask that an editor look for sources...frankly, there aren't many editors here who I would trust to phrase the request in a non-confrontational manner. In short, if you want information included in an article, you should be willing to assume the responsibility for finding sourcing and not get wound up over why another editor has not already done so. Cheers. Doniago (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

More informative edit summaries would help. Editor obviously has not considered WP:FIES in their mass removal of allegedly deprecated sources. Leaky Caldron 16:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I find these sort of edits confrontational, destructive and not particularly helpful. To most editors, I suspect the edit summary "Not RS per RSN" is completely meaningless; I for one detest the use of jargon and feel that editors should take steps to ensure that, even in an edit summary, expressions such as “RS” and “RSN” are wikilinked to the appropriate policy and/or discussion about the reliability of the disputed source.

Fladrif appears to be on a mission to rid Misplaced Pages of all references to sites such as "thepeerage.com". Once he's achieved his aim, what is to stop an editor when creating a new article to make use of this site as a source? Unless a source has been specifically blacklisted, editors are free to make use of them – is Fladrif going to immediately jump on them to remove the reference? Most of the information on "thepeerage.com" relates to family relationships; I cannot see that Misplaced Pages is improved by having this information, which is generally uncontentious, left unreferenced rather than referenced to a possibly unreliable source. Rather than replace such references with the {{cn}} tag, could not the {{self-published source}} tag be used instead? This would draw the reader's attention to the possibility that the source may not be reliable and "invite” the reader to use his own judgement. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 17:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

In addition, by continuing on this track while the manner and style of their edits is being discussed, the editor is in clear breach of an arbcom ruling summarised in WP:FAIT. "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." Leaky Caldron 17:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The notification of which has been removed without response by the user on their talk page. Leaky Caldron 18:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Which undoubtedly means that they've read it and will consider it carefully. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:46, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Undoubtedly they do not believe that it applies to them since they have continued with "not RS per RSN" since removing the TP message. Would be polite to acknowledge it though. Leaky Caldron 21:09, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The remover is implying that there is some basis in policy or guidelines that dictates that sources not meeting wp:rs criteria should be removed. But IMHO such DOES NOT EXIST! It certainly is not in wp:ver or wp:nor. Can anybody point to where such a policy exists? North8000 (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note, I have issued a 'cease and desist' order , because he does need to stop while the discussion is ongoing. There is no policy requiring the removal of these suboptimal sources if the information itself is not being challenged, equally I can see arguments to replace them with citation needed templates to encourage someone to find a better source. Either way, if Fladrif persists, a block may follow, as it is simply discourteous to plough on regardless rather than wait for consensus. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

No, we are not talking about "suboptimal sources". We are talking about sources that fail the bright-line test for meeting the bare minimum to qualify as a reliable source. These are sources that have been extensively discussed at RSN and definitive consensus reached that they do not qualify as sources to be used as references in Misplaced Pages articles. This is nothing like the best evidence rule; these self-published, amateur websites simply do not qualify as sources. Anyone who gets their panties in a twist over the removal of sources definitively determined to be unreliable has no understanding of what the underlying policies mean. "A crappy source is better than no source" may have been standard operating procedure for Misplaced Pages 5 or 6 years ago, but it won't fly now. I see not a single argument rooted in policy that would support retaining these sources as references in any article; what I see is a lot of "I don't like it". Tough. Deal with it. These sources may be convenient, and busy little beavers may have cited them thousands of times rather than going to a brick-and-mortar library to look for real sources, but they cannot be used here and must be removed. Period. Fladrif (talk) 00:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

"thepeerage" hasn't been considered "sub-optimal" Elen. It has been pilloried. There is no capacity for thepeerage to reliably present any geneaological information. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:02, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• Why is Fladrif not blocked? This seems to me to be an example of drive-by vandalism, the removal of footnotes on topics about which the editor clearly has no clue. Here's one example of the stupidity: Tell me how leaving information and removing the footnote on an erroneous pretext of unreliability improves the encyclopedia? Carrite (talk) 04:22, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's add Combat Mentality and refusal to edit cooperatively to the charges here: "what I see is a lot of "I don't like it". Tough. Deal with it. These sources may be convenient, and busy little beavers may have cited them thousands of times rather than going to a brick-and-mortar library to look for real sources, but they cannot be used here and must be removed. Period." Perusing the edit history of this self-proclaimed savior of Misplaced Pages, I see evidence of massive and chronic vandalism under the guise of "requiring" so-called "reliable sources." Pure drive-by footnote removal, not the least effort to ascertain whether the information is correct, not the least effort to remove erroneous information (only footnotes), not the least effort to engage other editors on talk pages. Massive vandalism. Carrite (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Because that source is completely and utterly unreliable for labour history, and whomever added it conducted vandalism against V. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Misplaced Pages Policy is absolutely clear:

"All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation" WP:CHALLENGE.

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly removal should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself. Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people; you should also be aware of how the BLP policy applies to groups.

--------

It may be that the article contains so few citations that it is impractical to add specific citation needed tags, in which case consider tagging a section with {{unreferencedsection}}, or the article with {{refimprove}} or {{unreferenced}}.

Wales, Jimmy. "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", WikiEN-l, May 16, 2006: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative "I heard it somewhere" pseudo information is to be tagged with a "needs a cite" tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." WP:UNSOURCED

Clearly, policy permits and encourages the removal of any material lacking inline citation to a RS, and actually requires it in the case of BLP's. It would have been perfectly proper to delete not only the references to sources definitively found not to be reliable, but the underlying text as well under clear policy. I considered that, but stopped short precisely to give editors who are interested in the subject matter the time and opportunity to add reliable sources where they exist. In many cases, that is precisely what has happened. Editors have gone back, found better sources, and added them - accomplishing precisely what Misplaced Pages policy intends.

It is seriously wrong-headed to consider any of this improper, out of bounds or, to crank up the hyperbole to 11, vandalism. If an editor came to RSN and asked "Is X a reliable source for Y text", and the answer comes back "No", the editor cannot then go to the article and add Y text anyway, using X as a source. It is a fundamental violation of policy to do so. That violation is not mitigated by adding Y text, using X as a source, and tagging the reference with a or or similar tag. A bad source is not better than no source, and tagging it as a bad source makes it no better. The fact that some editors added bad sources repeatedly (in some instances, quite literally spamming Misplaced Pages presumably to drive up traffic to their web sites, and in other cases out of ignorance of policy or in others laziness because it was just easier than finding actual reliable sources) should not be regarded as a fait accompli that cannot or should not be undone. If it shouldn't have been there in the first place, removing it is not the problem.

Now, once we set aside the "a bad source is better than no source" nonsense for what it is - nonsense directly at odds with policy - and ignoring the "I just don't like it" fits of apoplexy, we are left with two principal substantive objections.

• One seems to be that some editors don't like my edit summaries. Too cryptic apparently. Ellen's ham-fisted threat focused not on the edits, but on the edit summaries. Go figure. So how about this instead: This source has been specifically discussed at WP:RSN and is not a WP:RS See talk Then, on the talk page, I will post the following: (Insert name of source)) has been specifically discussed at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard (Insert link to specific RSN discussions) and determined that it is not a Reliable Source. Links to this source are being removed at this time, but not the underlying text. Better references need to be found and supplied to support the underlying text. Unreferenced text may be removed if it remains unsourced.
• The second seems to be that some editors would like a tag on the article page to alert innocent bystanders to the fact that text is no longer referenced. The policy cited above suggests that as an option, but does not require it. Would it make you happy if I added a tag in place of the removed reference on top of the edit summary and talk page notice? That is clearly overkill, but overkill has never deterred anybody around here as near as I can discern.Fladrif (talk) 14:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

This is a patently incorrect statement. My experience viewing — and very, very infrequently using — spartacus.schoolnet material is that it is generally accurate no matter what a small clique of non-experts at the so-called "Reliable Sources" noticeboard may have decided on a Thursday afternoon. Links for that debate, please, let's see precisely who made that determination... Moreover, what we have here is not the removal of challenged less-than-fully-reliable information in a debate over facts in play. There is no dispute of the facts, they were actually RETAINED in the aftermath of the drive-by vandalism — what we have here is the wanton elimination of the footnotes providing for readers the source of that retained information. There is no guideline or policy which calls for the removal of footnotes in this manner. There is no serious effort being made to take articles from a lesser to a higher state, from a lesser to a higher level of sourcing — merely the systemic and massive removal of useful attribution information from a very great number of articles on some sort of twisted bureaucratic IDONTLIKEIT rationale. This should be an immediately blockable occurrence if it happens in the future and I insist that this investigation rule on this question before this thread is closed. Carrite (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Because it isn't a source it is cited to Blind raving Joe from the Street corner. This is like putting after citations to the alt. hierarchy of usenet. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:52, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. Spartacus.schoolnet is good-to-excellent in factual accuracy. The only raving is this comment. Carrite (talk) 13:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Spartacus Schoolnet is a self-published source by an amateur historian who is not recognized as an expert in the field, and who has never been published by an independent, reputable third party publisher. It fails the bright-line test of WP:RS and WP:SPS no matter how accurate you or any other Misplaced Pages editor may consider it to be. It has been discussed repeatedly at WP:RSN and each discussion has come to the identical conclusion. It cannot be used as a reference for a Misplaced Pages article, though it may be listed in "External Links". Fladrif (talk) 14:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Fladrif, what you are missing is that WP:V is about the level of challenge to the content, not about the quality of the source. WP:RS is not a policy - it is a set of guidelines about sources for when information is challenged. I could source "Julius Caesar was a Roman dude" to the Ladybird book of Children's History without any problem. Where the information is uncontentious, there is no mileage in removing a poor source - although encouraging editors to find a better source is always good. Where the information is challenged, and the source is poor, the whole lot needs removing or sourcing better. Can I source "the Earth goes round the sun" to spartacus.schoolnet - yes, because nobody but flat-earthers are going to challenge it. Can I source "Margaret Thatcher contemplated interning striking miners" to the same source - no, and if that's the only source, the content needs to come out as well. Just deleting the source is a wholly pointless exercise without examining the content it was sourcing. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Ellen, what you are missing is that, insofar as I know, none of the removed citations fall in the category of supporting a statement in the "every schoolboy knows" category. Moreover, what "every schoolboy knows" is invariably mistaken. The notion that for an "uncontroversial" claim it is perfectly OK to cite any source whatsoever without regard to reliability, provenance, policy or guideline is utterly preposterous. Fladrif (talk) 15:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

You've missed my point entirely. If the information is controversial then it is not sufficient to remove the source, you have to remove the claim. If you are happy to leave the information, there is no value in removing the source. Going around removing the source without even looking at what it is sourcing is a complete waste of time. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

It's my time to waste, but more to the point what is your basis for concluding that I am not bothering to look at what is being sourced? You're simply wrong about that. Are you saying that if I also remove the associated text, that would be preferable? And, have you bothered to look at my proposals above in an effort to resolve this? Would they not solve the alleged issues here?Fladrif (talk) 15:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

My basis for concluding that you are not bothering to look at what is being sourced is that in reviewing your past year of edits, there are none discussing the content sourced from either spartacus or thepeerage. No edits to talk pages saying "The article says X but that isn't true because Y". No edits alerting relevant WikiProjects saying "This content is all wrong because you sourced it from here." It seems to me that there are two possible conclusions to draw: 1) you've been going around removing sources on the basis of reliable sourcing rules without reference to the content they support or 2) you've found a number of errors in content sourced to these websites, but are incapable of communicating any of this information to fellow editors. (Your occasional edits that refer to actual content, e.g., on transcendental meditation, don't pertain to the sources in question; you seem to have spent most of your time in mechanical application of sourcing rules.) I suggest you consider adopting the solution devised for the Rayment-sourced material, mentioned in my comment below. Choess (talk) 17:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the following list of edits:

15:23, 1 May 2012 : Andy opened a RS/N discussion about the issue, diff

15:25, 1 May 2012‎ : Andy notified Fladrif about the RS/N on Fladrif's Talk page, diff

15:46, 1 May 2012 : Fladrif responded at the RS/N discussion diff

Fladrif continued with his article edits, see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Fladrif&offset=&limit=500&target=Fladrif

10:57, 2 May 2012‎ : Andy opened AN/I case, diff

14:58, 2 May 2012 : Almost 4 hours later, Fladrif responded at the AN/I case, diff

Fladrif continued with his article edits

17:58, 2 May 2012 : Leaky Caldron notified Fladrif on his Talk page about concerns regarding WP:FAIT, diff

17:59, 2 May 2012 : Fladrif reverted the Talk page edit without comment diff

Fladrif continued with his article edits

22:25, 2 May 2012 : Elen gave Fladrif a stern warning to stop on his Talk page, diff

Fladrif stopped

My observations-- First, what the issue is not:

1. Most editors agree (I'm pretty sure) that the sources Fladrif has been removing indeed do not rise to the level of WP:RS. Most editors are not arguing that Fladrif is removing sourcing that passes WP:RS.
2. Fladrif is not committing vandalism, and I wish people would stop throwing around that word so casually. An accusasion of "vandalism" is a statement about an editor's intent. Fladrif is not intentionally trying to worsen Misplaced Pages. He is editing in good faith.

What the issue is:

1. Fladrif is engaging in disruptive editing. In particular, he was not engaging in consensus building, and was rejecting or ignoring community input during the period where he continued to remove cites from articles despite opposition from other editors, especially after the RS/N and AN/I cases opened. It took a sharply-worded notice from Elen to get him to stop.
2. Fladrif largely avoids communicating with his fellow editors at all. Most often when there is communication directed to him through edits to his Talk page, he simply reverts the edit without comment.
3. When Fladrif does communicate, in recent interactions with other editors, he exhibits a very combative tone. In particular:

• Anyone who gets their panties in a twist over the removal of sources definitively determined to be unreliable has no understanding of what the underlying policies mean. "A crappy source is better than no source" may have been standard operating procedure for Misplaced Pages 5 or 6 years ago, but it won't fly now. I see not a single argument rooted in policy that would support retaining these sources as references in any article; what I see is a lot of "I don't like it". Tough. Deal with it. These sources may be convenient, and busy little beavers may have cited them thousands of times rather than going to a brick-and-mortar library to look for real sources, but they cannot be used here and must be removed. Period. diff
• This edit to Elen's talk page in response to the events listed above.
• I took a look at Fladrif's earlier communications with other editors, and it appears to me that his tone has gotten more combative in recent communication than it used to be.
• Fladrif demonstrated extremely unwise judgement with this edit to the User page of an editor with Admin, Checkuser and Oversight

I am not an admin, but I think the following actions should happen:

1. Fladrif should get a warning about disruptive editing.
2. Fladrif should be encouraged to break his current habit of avoiding communication and consensus-building with other editors, and to start using a more collegial tone
3. Fladrif shoud consider taking a Wiki-break. It's clear he's frustrated at having to repeat himself so often about Misplaced Pages's policies regarding sourcing quality.

Zad68 (talk) 14:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm still reluctant to even call this "disruptive editing", merely that we ought to be able to find a better way to manage a bulk task. Bulk tasks on WP are hard to do neatly and without causing collateral damage. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy, I thought for a good long while and spent time reviewing the edit history and the Misplaced Pages definition of "disruptive editing" before coming to my determination, and I didn't make it lightly. There are two concerns here, 1) What the consensus is on the strategy going forward regarding mass removals of cites that don't pass WP:RS, and 2) Fladrif's interaction with other editors who were trying to get him to stop and discuss this. This is AN/I and it deals with editor behavior, and 2) is all I am really addressing here because it's AN/I. I'm not talking about 1) here. I'm actually undecided on that issue, I'm still mulling it over and reading responses. Regarding 2), Elen has been editing this thread since I posted my thing and hasn't found the need to engage on it, so maybe 2) isn't important to deal with right now because Fladrif has stopped his edits. Zad68 (talk) 15:56, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Zad68 sums it up rather nicely. Thepeerage.com is a tertiary source complied by an amateur. It is extensively referenced to the secondary sources used. Some of those are reliable (e.g., The Complete Peerage and Burke's Peerage), others are not at all reliable (personal correspondence). The reason thepeerage.com is used so extensively is that the reliable sources are expensive reference materials which are not necessarily widely distributed, even in libraries.

A similar problem cropped up recently, with the use of Leigh Rayment's site, which is arguably somewhat more reliable but to which many of the same issues apply. (Leigh is also self-published, but his website has been used as a reference by the official project to digitize Hansard.) When that issue was raised at the relevant WikiProject, the solution reached was to tag the template for sourcing to Rayment's site with and . These are gradually being replaced by references to the Complete Baronetage and the History of Parliament Online, although the latter doesn't yet cover all of Rayment's site.

Tagging references to thepeerage.com in a similar fashion seems to me to be a reasonable way to address these sourcing concerns. Removing the references entirely makes it harder to find the reliable secondary sources that should be used, so it seems to me that Fladrif's current actions are, in fact, making it more difficult to achieve his ostensible goal of getting reliable sources into these articles. Furthermore, as I asked a number of years ago when the print references aforementioned were questioned as reliable sources, where are the errors? WP:CHALLENGE applies to the material, not to the source itself, and I haven't seen any challenge to the material or any likely challenge that isn't purely vexatious. The entire exercise appears to me to be disruptive editing to prove a WP:POINT about applying rules, rather than a constructive attempt to remove false or misleading information. Choess (talk) 16:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Article: Jack Abramoff, Talkpage; users: 199.209.144.218, 76.73.168.89, Eelnire

Hello everybody. Having edited in the Englisch Misplaced Pages for some time without ever having to deal with unpleasantness – contrary to the German Misplaced Pages where things are quite different – I don't know how to go about this without making it look as silly as it actually is. But not liking to have my edits reverted and being accused of “engaging in an editing war based on personal opinion”, “vandelizing” (sic!) and the like into the bargain, I'm beginning to get annoyed at the two above mentioned IPs who imo are most likely the same person, and the newly registered Eelnire who very likely is identical with the two IPs (see here) active in Jack Abramoff and, as far as their contributions show, nowhere else, at least not lately (Contributions 199.209.144.218, Contributions 76.73.168.89, Contributions Eelnire).
The ‘three’ users's only contribution to the Abramoff article, as far as I could make out, is the addition of “movie producer and writer” in the lead on 30 January 2012‎ to what formerly read “Jack Abramoff ... is an American former lobbyist and businessman” (Diff). When I first updated and edited the article shortly afterwards, (first and second edit) I left the “movie producer”, but replaced “writer” by adding “After his release from prison, he wrote the book Capitol Punishment ... which was published in 2011.” My explanation that Abramoff is not called a “writer” by any sources after it was reinserted by 199.209.144.218 did not prevent the IPs to revert (Summary: “Stop reverting this sourced item. He is a writer and you should not change something based on your personal opinion. I will contact an admin next time you change it”, Summary: “He has authored 2 books and wrote the script for the movie Red Scorpion. The source from IMDB also shows him as a writer and movie producer”, Summary: “Ajnem is rewriting this because he thinks IMDB is not a valid resource. Ajnem is also ignoring the fact that Abarmoff has authored a book” (ironically, all of what the article has to say about the book was added by me)), and eventually 199.209.144.218 changed “writer” to “screenwriter and author” (Summary: “Changed because of other user not liking reference to writer. Adding something more specific”.
Enter newly registered user Eelnire. And now, things are getting weird, as he, although imo most likely identical with 76.73.168.89 (and 199.209.144.218), changes “screenwriter and author” back to “writer”, leaving a post on the talk page first as 76.73.168.89 and then signing the post as Eelnire, giving me “last warning” once more “This is the last time Ajnem. We have discussed this enough. I have provided you with plenty of sources. At this point you are not making any sense and are injecting your personal bias. I WILL contact an admin if you change it again. Your waiting for time to pass and your coming back and vandalizing this article. An admin will be contacted if you change it again”, after which “writer” was reverted to “screenwriter and author” by an uninvolved user, leaving a note on Eelnire's talk page.
Not satisfied with ‘rebranding’ Abramoff as a former “screenwriter author/writer”, and seeing to it, that he is not called a “Republican lobbyist” (Diff) ‘they’ now systematically totalrevert my edits, including those that have nothing to do with the “writer”-issue, leaving unpleasent summaries (Summary: “Stop undoing this Ajnem. Next time I am getting an admin involved. You are vandelizing (sic!) at this point”, Summary: “This has been discussed in the Talk section. Ajnem is ignoring sources and engaging in an editing war based on personal opinion”) and posts on talk pages, including mine, in addition to it (“This is the last time ...”, “Ajnem is engaging in an editing war. I have reasoned with him by changing "writer" to "screenwriter & author", provided additional sources and he continues to delete edits based on his personal opinon. He is changing this information every 2 or 3 days so he can fly under the radar and not get flagged for vandelism (sic!), not to mention giving me last warnings and announcing to contact an administrator without of course doing so.
The first sentence of the article now reads: “Jack Abramoff (... born February 28, 1959) is an American former lobbyist, businessman, movie producer, screenwriter and author (with 4 references for the “screenwriter and author”, including two Misplaced Pages articles ("Jack Abramoff - IMDb", "Jack Abramoff - writer for the film, Red Scorpion - Misplaced Pages", "Jack Abramoff - author of the book, Capitol Punishment: The Hard Truth About Washington Corruption From America's Most Notorious Lobbyist - Misplaced Pages" , "Jack Abramoff - writer for the film, Red Scorpion - Rotten Tomatoes")) which imo is nonsense, or at least misleading. (Incidentally, the Infobox still has Abramoff's occupation as “businessman and lobbyist”.) Abramoff is called a few things in very reliable sources, but never a “writer” or ”author”. What sources call him most often is a “disgraced (corrupt) (Republican) lobbyist (and ex-con)”. Whether he also is a writer is of course a non-dispute I would not have bothered anybody with – who could take anybody seriously who thinks that publishing an account of his lobbying career turned Abramoff into a writer? – but the reverting of the two IPs and Eelnire has become disruptive if not vandalism, making it impossible to further edit the article sensibly.
→ To make this unpleasant futility short and apologising for its length: Maybe the ‘three of them’ will disappear, as ‘they’ don't seem to be interested in anything but the one issue, if it is made clear that mentioning in the lead that Abramoff has published a book after he was released from prison not only has the advantage of being sourced by reliable sources, but also gives quite enough and actually more weight to him as a “writer” than ‘branding’ him as a former screenwriter author/writer? Ajnem (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

First of all when Ajnem repeatedly deleted edits without discussing the deletes that is vandelism. On top of that he did it in a way to fly under the radar by waiting 3 days or more to delete them again, doing this repeatedly for over a month. Jack Abramoff is mentioned as writers on multiple websites that are well sourced and crediable sites by experts in the field. The two IP's are me and I edited the two from work and home. The reason there are entries with Eelnire is because it was noted that to edit entries on here it is better to have an account. I dont have access to this created account at work and that is why I dont use it at work but only at home. Ajnem repeatedly was Rude to me and talked down to me like I was an idiot just because I wasnt using an account. This goes against Misplaced Pages code of conduct and is one reason why many people dont like to use Misplaced Pages because they have to deal with Rude people like Ajnem. 199.209.144.218 (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I repeatedly told Ajnem to stop blindly deleting edits or I was going to get an admin involved. Ajnem at first didnt like the term "writer" so he just continued to delete it without discussing it. Then after 3 or 4 deletes he decided to talk about it. That is when I compromised with him and changed it to "screenwriter and author". Then he decided this wasnt good enough so he deleted it while making reasons that had no logic behind them even though I provided multiple valid sources. On imDB and RottenTomatoes he is refered to as a writer because he wrote the script for the movie Red Scorpion. If he had a problem with these sources he should have asked for different sources, instead he continued to delete edits. Ajnem is being unreasonable at this point and acting like he can do whatever he wants on here just because he has been editing longer than me. This is a poor and arrogant attitude and is the reason why I dont like editing on this site. If you go to the Talk on Jack Aramoff I provided him excerpts from the Misplaced Pages article on what is considered a writer and they state that a person who writes scripts for a movie are considered writers. Ajnem is being Rude and unreasonable. Look at what he is saying above!! Is this the way Misplaced Pages treats new users?? 199.209.144.218 (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Ajnem quote, "To make this unpleasant futility short and apologising for its length: Maybe the ‘three of them’ will disappear". Ajnem? Who do you think you are, talking to me like that? You are rude and your attitude is condemned by Misplaced Pages's code of conduct. Eelnire (talk) 23:43, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Ajnem quote, "But a very aggressive IP insists, that Abramoff is a writer and wants it mentioned in the lead. Would somebody be good enough and explain to this IP if need be, because I'm going to remove it from the lead, that the producer and coauthor of a film". Eelnire (talk) 23:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

As current policy stands, unregistered users have exactly the same rights as registered users to participate in the writing of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages:IPs are human too Eelnire (talk) 23:47, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

So to assume I am aggressive and beneath you because I use an IP to edit is Rude. Eelnire (talk) 23:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Karlovy Vary page name changed unilaterally

The article for Karlovy Vary was changed to Carlsbad, Bohemia by OttomanJackson unilaterally, against prior consensus, without discussion and using a single google search for justification. This should be reverted back, unless we want to rename Gdańsk to Danzig, etc. Best, Markvs88 (talk) 15:45, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Reversion of such a move doesn't need an administrator. Consensus on the talk page seemed clear, so I've reverted the move. - David Biddulph (talk) 15:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but I was unable to do it for some reason. Best, Markvs88 (talk) 16:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

This is not exactly a first for OttomanJackson; almost all their edits for the last 6 months are like this. Xiamen →‎ Amoy, Helsingør →‎ Elsinore, Hagåtña, Guam →‎ Agana, Guam, A Coruña →‎ Corunna, &c. bobrayner (talk) 00:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I quote from OttomanJackson's talk page,

All diacritics will be removed from messages, according to my Anglicization policy.

That fails WP:TPO by a mile. Also he's not been informed of this discussion, I've done that. ~Crazytales (talk) 01:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Election year antics

Just a heads up for administrators here. A couple of AFDs related to the current US presidential election are apparently the target off-wiki campaigning from both sides of the political spectrum. A few extra sets of eyes on these articles might be helpful. Thanks. Peacock (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Forward (Obama-Biden Campaign Slogan)
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Forward (generic name of socialist publications)

One of the most supported views, and least dissented views in the recent COI RFC was, er, mine, located at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/COI#View_by_Hipocrite. Hipocrite (talk) 16:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

You people better watch this like hawks

Tea Party provacateurs have filed and linked this AFD off of Drudge Report. Lots of people are coming: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Forward_%28Obama-Biden_Campaign_Slogan%29 Herp Derp (talk) 16:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Fully protected for a period of 3 days, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

You mean "fully protected," so only administrators can !vote? It looks more like it's "semi-protected." And the semi-protection is currently set to expire 18:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC), not in three days. Edison (talk) 19:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Two separate protections - the AFD is semi-protected for 7 days. The article itself is Full protected for three, since many of the shenanigans from the AFD were spilling over (or vice versa). UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Not the nicest of ways to speak to fellow editors. You people better watch this like hawks. MrLittleIrish © 12:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Meh. The title reference was neutral enough. The "provacateurs" might not have been, but seems to be in context when you consider the political leanings of the source of the links. It was a good call to bring it here as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Drive-by shootings about Li Xiannian all over WP

Between February and March 2012, User Koroknait (talk · contribs), a confirmed sock of another user, came and laid droppings about Li Xiannian on all related articles, including Deng Xiaoping, Chinese economic reform (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chinese_economic_reform&diff=prev&oldid=480654971), Cultural Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cultural_Revolution&diff=prev&oldid=480992671), Chen Yun (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chen_Yun&diff=prev&oldid=479302596), President of the PRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=President_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=prev&oldid=479496599), etc. I've been identifying these edits for a while now and it is hard to scrub all of them. It seems like the user is merely trying to up the "link count" to Li Xiannian from a series of articles. Anyway, none of this is helpful or constructive. Is there a way that all of the user's edits can be reverted? Colipon+(Talk) 16:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure I got most of it already back when the accounts weren't blocked.--Atlan (talk) 18:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

evidently not... see President of the People's Republic of China. I can't even undo the edits... Colipon+(Talk) 18:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I clearly missed that one. I have reverted their edits. Let me know if you find more.--Atlan (talk) 10:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Hasteur and User:Mtking versus User:Agent00f

This has been fun and all, but no administrator action is going to come of this discussion. Agent00f has been sufficiently warned that his behavior is disruptive. It would not be in anyone's best interest to continue being disruptive with respect to the ongoing MMA fiasco. ‑Scottywong| confess _ 14:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Hasteur and User:Mtking seem to be jointly harassing User:Agent00f. It doesn't appear that User:Agent00f is without fault but there are a series of articles which were the topic of deletion last fall where the end verdict was to keep that User:Hasteur and User:Mtking seem to be revisiting. I came across this because of a sudden burst of deletion requests by User:Mtking, so I am really just a bystander->passerby. User:Hasteur and User:Mtking seem to revel in being rude and hateful, even bragging on their user pages about proud they are of being so obnoxious and rude. Recently threatening User:Agent00f with banning per this notice-board. So, I thought I'd just go ahead and post it for review. I have no vested interest in this topic nor do I have an opinion to its outcome. I just dislike seeing users treated so disrespectfully by what is a representative group of wikipedia editors. I will notify each user by way of the required template. | pulmonological 17:12, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'm far too involved to mediate here, but can state that there is a degree of justifiable frustration regarding Agent. I have personally opined that his actions are highly obstructive and stretch good faith to its limits, if not exceeding them. I notice that you are making generalizations about Mtking and Hasteur, rather than providing diffs, however, and would simply say that any claims should be backed up with evidence, as is the expected norm at ANI. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I object to the OP who hasn't contributed to the discussion, trying to premptively go to the parents to tattle, and involving themselves in a conduct dispute in which Agent00f has been acting significantly below the standards for civility, collaberation, and general conduct at Misplaced Pages. Furthermore I object to the use of AN/I to report this as it's not an "Immediate Action" concern. There was forward movement on a compromise on MMA Event notability on the talk page untill Agent00f entered the scene and started disrupting all the consensus building going on to attempt to keep a status quo in place that multiple editors and administrators have judged is not working. I have not threatened Agent00f, I have asked nicely, warned, and delivered a final warning regarding good faith asumptions, with each time being treated with even more demonstrations of bad faith. I warned Agent00f, that if they did not apologize that I intended to file a request at AN on the grounds that their continued disruptive behavior was not acceptable and to have uninvolved administrator determine if sanctions (at which point I listed what sanctions could be leveled) were appropriate. Hasteur (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

"trying to premptively go to the parents to tattle" — Is a great example of why this incident needs mediation. | pulmonological 17:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

One of the benefits of ANI is that it puts everyone's actions on the table, not just the targets. As to Pulmonological, I certainly don't question their faith in bringing this issue here. The only real question is the relationship of Agent, Hasteur and Mtking, and if the templating was warranted, and if any action would be the proper response to either of the three parties. Again, I'm too involved in the discussion page to mediate here, and I trust that others will consider the totality of the circumstances and make the proper judgement in this case. I think it benefits us all if we simply look at Agents actions prior to the templating vs. the templating, and let uninvolved editors determine if the reaction was appropriate or not. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability is a must read for anyone wishing to see the larger issues. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (Reply to Pulmono of 17:32)My ability to assume good faith has been worn down significantly during the past few days due to the actions of Agent00f, therefore your out of the blue change from medical article maintenance to deprod 4 MMA articles and then run to this board screaming about our abuse, and then returning back to medical article maintenance seems somewhat suspicious to begin with. Hasteur (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to suspect all you want, I haven't been disingenuous. The language you choose to use toward this notification ("tattle", "screaming about our abuse") speaks volumes. I care about how editors are treated (you included) and I know that through "tattling" there will be an appropriate resolution properly representing the mission of wikipedia. | pulmonological 17:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious - you did review the extensive history both on the MMA talk page and here of the extreme harrasment Hasteur and Mtking have endured from MMA fans before post this, correct? Ravensfire (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it's also important to reflect on the reasons why these editors have been specifically targeted previously. They've been acting in very bad faith (no assumption necessary) from the very beginning to the userbase of this set of pages, for example strongly pushing for AfD's to make a resource actively used by tens of thousands useless well before any agreement to retain material has been reach and then pretending afterward they were interested in "compromise" all along. They also know to maneuver the system to their favor, for example proper rhetoric and righteous indignation within their threats and intimidation, regardless of the righteousness of their actions. This collection of unethical behavior rather enraged a group of mostly well-intended people (I imagine mostly young males) who lack the wiki-skills to oppose this to lash out. I do not disagree that some MMA fans have acted inappropriately (and in some cases very inapproriately), but it wasn't without cause or provocation. BTW, I've only recently joined the fray, but I've read through the previous material and the unethical behavior of those two while hiding behind pretentious facades has been profound. Agent00f (talk) 20:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I Object to the assertion of "harrassment" and trying to single out User:Hasteur and User:Mtking, They are justifiably frustrated and not the only ones who warned Agent00F about being disruptive and assuming bad faith. There are Many of us trying to resolve the issues surrounding UFC and MMA figh pages in general and were on our way to a decent start of compromise. Agent00F has continually impeded progress with no constructive contributions to the discussions. He has posted comment after comment belittling Any editor involved that questions the notability of any UFC article, insults a fine administrators intelligence and knowledge,refuses to offer any new idea, and posts comment after comment about WP:OTHERSTUFF,and citing information that is irrelevent. All you need for evidence is to read the entire talk page for WP:MMANOT Newmanoconnor (talk) 17:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll echo some of the sentiments here that the problem is not necessarily with Hasteur and Mtking. Progress was being made at WT:MMANOT in regards to the construction of a possible guideline to be sent to RfC for how to handle notability issues within the MMA article space. Agent00f arrived and has essentially hijacked the discussion with their pontification which amounts to pretty much WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Could Hasteur and Mtking responded differently? In hind-sight the best response to Agent00f was probably no response and to move forward. Seeing as Agent00f hasn't provided anything constructive to the discussion at WT:MMANOT I hope that they do move forward and ignore those who try to steer the efforts around in circles. The MMA article space has been a toxic battleground of hate and harassment for about two months and it hasn't been from Hasteur and Mtking, in my opinion. What has occurred at WT:MMANOT in the last few days has been a very polite interaction in comparison to what "the other side" has done. Unfortunately, I've lost faith that anyone cares what happens within the MMA article space beyond those who have been participating in it and that this ANI along with the several others that preceded it will simply be swept under the rug and forgotten about. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• I would add that the tactics have changed, from outright sockpuppetry and disruption, to obstructionism and intentionally being obtuse, such as the case of Agent. Whether or not it is actionable, I will leave to someone uninvolved as my bias and opinion are obvious. On the plus side, the two sides are much closer to a compromise than ever before, with the exception of one or two who I fear are trying to derail the process. I might have chosen different methods to deal with the obstructionism, but as someone who has been the target of it, as well as their general incivility, I can hardly blame Hasteur and Mtking. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Let's step back a bit and provide some background on the few editors in the thread above. For the most part they are the small set of folks who were very motivated to delete MMA-related material into an unusable state (ie. missing major pieces) via AfD's before this consensus building exercise, so let's not enter into this with the impression that they're anywhere near neutral. None of them (except one) have any domain knowledge of the wiki subject at hand yet act as experts on the subject oblivious to the protests of the many actual contributors to the content. For anyone reading the page that prompted this, their strategy thus far has been to 1. act in bad faith 2. wait for someone to call them out on the impropriety 3. pretend righteous indignation and intimidate anyone daring to speak out with assuming bad faith when no assumption is necessary by this point, and to their credit by gaming the system they've managed to drive off most of the opposition to their interests on this topic. I don't claim to be a saint, but unfortunately I'm basically the only one left to tell the other side of the story; this is probably because my time there has been short and haven't been railroaded out yet. As for being constructive, note that there were many well-reasoned and sourced arguments for the userbase and user experience side of equation, and I personally have laid out carefully consider criticisms of the omnibus "consensus" plan, but unfortunately all those attempts have been mostly ignored out of convenience if not burned to the ground. It's very difficult to keep "assuming good faith" when one's honest efforts are treated this way on a regular basis. When this willful outright dismissal of what's supposed to be one side of the compromise was pointed out, the few editors (recall the same tight-knit group from the start) above basically take turns to make baseless accusations of everything from obstructionism to incivility to assuming bad faith (of course); it's also worth noting that basic integrity is not a requirement within these threats. Of course any request to clarify any charges are also promptly ignored before moving onto more of them. I don't want to make this defense too long, so I'll stop here but am available to field any questions and concerns as the voice for the other side of the controversy. Agent00f (talk) 21:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• That you view this as a battleground, with two enemies and one must be defeated, is part of the problem. I've spent a great deal of time bringing the two sides together. Many, if not most, of the participants are people that initially disagreed. Just the other day, I convinced someone to withdraw 9 AFDs in the interest of keeping the peace and slowing down the drama while we solve the issues as a community. Yet you have questioned my motives and good faith at every turn. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• That's a view you've projected onto me, or anyone who wouldn't support your plan 100%. What I can remember from elsewhere about "compromise" is that both sides are capable of moving, not one side swallow what they're offered. As I've noted before, the other commentators here flooding the ANI are exactly the ones who made all the AfD's in plain bad faith (a matter of record, btw), and a subset of them are the only ones you've been working with. So "coming together" against the unwashed MMA userbase wasn't too hard I'd imagine. The fact that you're presenting this as some plan that had user support (rather than trying to gain it now) is amusing, and it's evident in the fact that the format isn't anything anyone with knowledge of the subject would come up with. I've questioned your motives as I'm entitled to do after getting burned so badly, for example when I wrote a long list of plan weaknesses in good faith after a call for comments, and was largely ignored. If you have evidence to the contrary where you've incorporated significant material from actual users, please show it. Agent00f (talk) 23:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• "On the plus side, the two sides are much closer to a compromise than ever before". Dennis, please don't patronize the other admins by painting this rosy picture of what's going on before "disassociating" yourself. A more accurate view would be that there's currently no other side to the "compromise". For example, when you opened up the floor to comments on the omnibus plan (which btw, has already been stealth-implemented, so what are we exactly discussing here?), people took that in good faith and offered criticisms only to be ignored or otherwise burned. Then when the burned party justifiably complained, same small clique that's been AfD'ing MMA pages from the start in bad faith began making threats against dissent which is how we ended up here. The only way this can be considered "compromise" is if we redefine it to mean doing the work of that clique (the ones flooding this ANI) who are not at all representative of the pages' userbase. Agent00f (talk) 21:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't believe I'm the newest one here and have to say this, but anyone involved in the ANI should not be reverting Prod's on Strikeforce Articles(whether warranted or not) that have been Prod'd by someone here, or Tagging for CSD on Nursing associations that are in the normal realm of others involved here. Regardless who started what, it reflects poorly on anyone who does it.If you feel that strongly about it, ask for an outside opinion and let them do it(this is not the same as finding someone else to do your dirty work.Newmanoconnor (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• The best observations often come from the freshest minds at Misplaced Pages. Had I been bringing someone to ANI I would not have removed the PROD tags either. Not a statement on his good faith, only on his good judgement. I'm still more concerned about the primary player(s). Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:23, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

What I suspect Pulmonological is really complaining about is my CSD tag on his new article here, they then go on to look at my contributions remove the PRODS, which I have no problem with as yes they have been to AfD, even though there is no record of that in the page histories. Then after DGG redirects the page as an alternative to deletion comes here to defend an editor who is the very definition of a SPA being here only to edit two pages Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability and his own talk page. Mtking 20:29, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

To be fair to Pulmonological, Hasteur has been threatening ANI anyway among his/her various intimation attempts in an obvious attempt to drive away less wiki-savvy opposition. Of course you know of this considering it's a matter of public record in the MMA omnibus page, so please try to not act surprised. Agent00f (talk) 21:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur had good reason to threaten starting an ANI, it is also a matter of public record at the discussion. If things continued, I would have done it.Newmanoconnor (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

That's to be expected from a member of the AfD clique. They pretty much despise anyone who pushes back as any normal person would expect in negotiations over a "compromise". Agent00f (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not appreciate the pretty obvious accusation that I am here by request. Tagging me in the edit note as "warring" in the ANI is more than a little ridiculous considering I removed those deletion templates appropriately before even noticing this hullabaloo was going on. All of the users involved in the MMA discussions are "warring" and it is not appropriate to allow it to continue without an un-involved administrative third party mediation. My intention is only to spotlight this war for review. It seems to me you all forgot what WP:FAITH means in the midst of all of your WP:PROD spam and snide arguments with eachother. | pulmonological 20:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I Compared the timestamps and you are correct, they were done before this ANI. It's hard to see them as unrelated however. I have reverted the Prod stating that they were removed prior to the ANI.Newmanoconnor (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I've elected to remove myself from this specific complaint as it appears to be a canvassing call. No attempt to resolve it with either myself or Mtking on our talk pages before coming to ANI. No attempts at proper dispute resolution. No Immediate action needing to be taken per any of the WP community guidelines/policies. Please feel free to notify me if legitimate grounds come up. Until then I am going to read Misplaced Pages, edit Misplaced Pages, attend WikiMeetups, support Misplaced Pages and be recognized someday for what I tried to do on here. Hasteur (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note Since everyone talking here so far is involved in the MMA talk, including myself, now would be a great time for some experienced editor who is not involved to offer some guidance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Short Duration Block Requested If Agent00f cannot help himself from disrupting the process of trying to work on the MMa Project through consensus, I formally request a short duration block, so we can continue to make progress. He has now turned to trying to get Two editors who I was able to get to start helping us, to adopt his obstruct and stall approach.Newmanoconnor (talk) 22:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I've only pointed out that in negotiation for a "compromise", it's in the interests of both parties to make demands, and not for one to simply capitulate on everything. Newmanoconnor's attitude here truly exemplifies the AfD clique approach of their way or the highway. I've made note of this above, and I'm glad he's acting it out as evidence. Agent00f (talk) 23:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, you have a battlefield mentality. You talk about demands, like it is a hostage crisis. Your perspective on discussions in general is combative, and indicative of binary thinking. The rest of us have instead listened to each others concerns, bounced different ideas back and forth, compromised, offered ideas. You haven't. You've been intentionally obstructive, overly verbose, and abusive. I'm not the only one who has noticed this, and I've spent a great deal of time trying to get you to participate, but every comment has simply been attacking those who agreed and calling them deletionists. I find this particularly odd since what we are discussing will increase coverage. You have pushed it far enough that I truly believe you are acting in bad faith, and this is not a phrase I'm known to throw around. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Might I remind you that the notions of "sides" in this dispute was the creation of the AfD clique when they started and continued to AfD in bad faith (to this day, months after, even during negotiations) and greatly antagonizing the userbase. This isn't some figment of my imagination, and we both know this. A fair and neutral referee in this matter probably wouldn't choose them as the only group to work with to come up with a plan that mostly impact users, but I won't risk "assuming bad faith". I've also been the only one actually negotiating (that means pushing back when necessary, a "compromise" is not a one way street) rather than taking it wholesale as did AfD group that created the plan. Finally, if you had actually replied to my numerous relevant comments on the ominibus page how you act here to show for the judging panel, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm willing to participate fairly, as I've done, but I'm not here merely to lend credibility to a done deal. added: I missed a few choice misleading statements in your reply: "every comment has simply been attacking those who agreed and calling them deletionists", it's very nice that you finally admitted that those who agreed had been the deletionists. Note that this not a term I use, but I would agree is an apt description of the AfD team who have performed their namesake on MMA even during negotiations. "I find this particularly odd since what we are discussing will increase coverage", this is misleading because the only way the omnibus page increases coverage is if we assume the AfD's are successful. Frankly I'm not sure why you're politicking about omnibus-specific issues here, please address them to the omnibus page where your presence on this point is almost non-existent. Agent00f (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

This is an accusation I made, and I wish to substantiate it further: "if you had actually replied to my numerous relevant comments on the ominibus page how you act here to show for the judging panel, we wouldn't be having this discussion". Since this ANI began, Dennis who claims to be a neutral admin for "consensus" on the omnibus matter has taken considerable effort to make numerous posts here attacking me, and thus unfortunately didn't have any left to answer any of my questions, old or new, including critical ones regarding omnibus length, etc, on the relevant talk page. I pointed them out more than once to give him a chance to address actual wiki matters instead of just politicking, but alas still no answer or even attempt at engaging. Agent00f (talk) 00:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Refactoring your comments after someone has noted how aggressive they are isn't the best of faith either. You should strike them and correct them if you choose to, but the diffs for this thread clearly indicate you are trying to temper them down as you go, and failing to strike them instead is misleading. Refactoring in this way isn't good faith either. Any editor can look and see for themselves. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:45, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I check for grammar and wording sometimes after the fact, so maybe I should use preview more instead. It also doesn't help that I'm trying to so multiple things at the same time including the omnibus page. But it is curious this wild accusation is coming from the camp throwing around "assuming bad faith". If you have an example of this, please show it instead of falling back on innuendo. If anyone is actually going to bother to follow up on something so trite, be sure to also check the omnibus page where I also reword to clarify or add a point after the fact to see that it's just a usual habit. Note that someone not "assuming bad faith" would've done this first. Agent00f (talk) 23:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Since I have some more time right now, I'll try to describe as clearly as possible what's been going on politically at the MMA omnibus page. Fundamentally, what's being created is a bunch of work to be saddle on MMA page contributors, and the question is who makes the decisions as to the nature of that work. Though circumstances described above, a small group whose previous primary concern had been AfD'ing the pages to death has seized power as "execs" in this situation. The execs among themselves came up with a plan which is ostensibly palatable to them (and in fact already partially implemented without any input from anyone else), but they need buy-in from the actual users/contributors to accept those "done deal" decisions and unload the real work. Therefore, there's no public decision making process here other than cherry picking a few who might begrudgingly follow along while ignoring those who feel this is wrong, but it's being saluted as "consensus". This is for example why all those here are the AfD executive members (eg, Newmanoconnor, who's been continuing to recklessly AfD while this reconciliation is going on), trying again to intimidate any dissent, because they've successfully done it for the most part. Note there's no assumptions about faith being made here, just the empirical reality/tragedy of what happened. Just look into the records for UFC AfD's and you'll see the names there. Now, because I'm a reasonable person I'm not going to claim this situation is entirely unworkable even in its deplorable present state, which is why I asked many specific questions on the relevant talk page and for guidelines as to how much leeway the users have in the design, but Dennis the admin (and the AfD execs) have all purposely avoided them or similar questions about vetting from other users (basically anything of consequence) and chooses to reply here to please the judging panel instead. Agent00f (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

For anyone still unconvinced this little clique exists, a slight bit of detective work yields:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Mtking#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Newmanoconnor#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:TreyGeek#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Dennis_Brown#FYI:_Agent00f

Now, bystander Pulmonological jumped gun a bit instead of letting Hasteur ANI at his leisure, but all witnesses called are present here. Note of all the users on the MMA omnibus talk page, these are the only ones to get notified. All (except the admin) AfD's the relevant subject pages which ruins the chained links (incl lists) organizing them, etc. Agent00f (talk) 06:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've made call after call for people to stop sending articles to AFD and that makes me a deletionist and a co-conspirator?. The omnibus does not require permission to be created, this is Misplaced Pages, you can create any article you want. All these "oppose" votes show how clueless, and oblivious, some people are. The goal of the proposals wasn't to get permission, it was to pull the community together, but you couldn't hear the message from way atop your soapbox. I've spent the last few months trying to save the information in one form or another, begging people to slow down, holding back a floodgate of AFDs, you show up two week ago and anoint yourself the savior of MMA and block every attempt at peace, oblivious to the overall history.

• Do you know why no admin has jumped in this conversation? The same reason no other admin helps at the MMANOT page, because MMA discussion are a toxic cesspool of hate, sockpuppetry, fanboyism, and longwinded monologs by people who have no clue what Misplaced Pages is about and instead want to treat it like a personal fan site. I had been the only one stupid enough to try to bring peace there. A few admins privately called me a fool for trying to help, and it would appear they were right. In the end, what you have done is to guarantee that more articles will get deleted or sent to AFD, as I'm no longer interested in talking people out of it, nor bringing the two sides together. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 10:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

(@Agent00f) Congratulations on finding a notice I delivered neutrally to other collaborative editors in the discussion regarding what I intended to do. It's called building consensus. I have been acting in good faith (unlike almost every single edit you've made to Misplaced Pages). ANI is not a court room. I suggested that I was going to take you to WP:AN which is where more discussion can take place over a longer period to determine if it's more appropriate for sanctions to be applied than snap decisions. Finally, you've driven away possibly one of the greatest voices of support the MMA enthusiasts could have had. *golfclap* Hasteur (talk) 12:06, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need IP blocked for repeated vandalism

96.250.41.58 is a vandalism only account. Appears to be same person as 96.250.18.251 who was blocked about a week ago for vandalizing the same article (George Harrison). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done - I blocked them 31h for edit warring. My first block, actually. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I have previously unblocked one person after a discussion with the blocking admin, so my net score is still 0 ;) If this warring happens again, we might consider semi-protection on that page since it seems to be IPs causing all the fuss. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if semi-protection is necessary. I think it's just one person who's vandalizing the article. Both IPs trace back to the same ISP (Verizon Online LLC, Ashburn, VA, USA).96.250.41.58=96.250.18.251 A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

That is why I didn't enact it. If they come back later today with a shiny new IP, it may be warranted. I'm not sure how fast those IPs cycle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Should have been filed at WP:AVI really... MrLittleIrish © 12:06, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • This is true, but it was obvious enough that I went and took care of it rather than be a slave to formality. But yes, normally that is where we want to take them and I likely should have indicated as much, even as I took care of the issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 13:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive IP editor

90.218.255.152 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

A couple of weeks ago I reported this IP editor here, who I suspected was deliberately adding false information or at best just guessing, and was advised to keep an eye on it. Since then the dubious additions have continued and all messages have been ignored (I tried asking them to just reply on their talk page to confirm if they'd read them and got no response), the only reaction to messages is that they stop or slow down for a day or so and then gradually pick up and continue exactly as before. This latest edit appears to be false (explained why in my revert). The persistent style errors have continued too, although these are less harmful they are also an indication that this editor is either wilfully ignoring or unable to understand the messages they are receiving.

This is a long-term problem, I think this person has been editing like this for over a year across various IPs (see here and here) but even taking just the current IP, they have over 1,000 edits since February. Even if I AGF that the errors were not deliberate, an editor who cannot understand or will not even acknowledge concerns about their edits is disruptive and I think at least a WP:COMPETENCE block is necessary. January (talk) 18:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

• I am a proponent of blocks for incompetent editors who are highly incommunicative. Drmies (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
• I would agree with Drmies perspective, although I'm a failure at blocking. I've been in many ANIs this week and have yet to block anyone ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Go to AIV. Or ask Sitush for someone who needs to be blocked; I think he has a hit list. Drmies (talk) 03:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Not enough vandalistic edits to be considered a vandal. Plenty of legitimate edits. Doc talk 03:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how we can allow them a few vandalistic edits because they also make edits which look legitimate. As with the edit I highlighted above, it sometimes takes a bit of research to tell which is which and I'm concerned that some of the false edits are going unnoticed because they look innocuous at first sight. This, which I'm pretty sure is false (Ross King describes himself as "from Knightswood" in this interview stayed in the article for a week. January (talk) 05:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I must admit that edits like this are not good, as they introduce things into referenced material where the reference does not support it. Doc talk 06:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• Disruption is still disruption. Once all possible good faith solutions have been exhausted, the block is the only tool we have left, and I like having it on the table at ANI rather than being acted upon unilaterally. I'm not convinced that adding one more template is going to have any more effect than the 15 or so recent and existing ones on their talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:03, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The user has continued editing in the same vein while this discussion has been going on. According to this edit Kate Garraway's hobbies include sleeping. They are also making dubious additions of notable residents to city/district articles (I tried sourcing a few and found nothing). January (talk) 16:30, 2 May 2012‎ (UTC)

I've just retrieved this thread from the archive as the problem has continued today. January (talk) 19:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that's quite enough of that. I've blocked the IP for 72 hours, next one will be two weeks. You can roll back all the edits the IP has made as well as you see fit. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Strange new users.

For some reason, two new accounts was created today, both doing only one thing: Editing (vandalizing?) the user page of another user, who has been idle since June 2011.

The users in question are Hatmanone (talk · contribs · email) and Cellymob1 (talk · contribs · email).

I thought first this was somebody trying to be a puppetmaster but being bad at it, although now I think it might be vandalism. Something somewhere else prompted these people to try to make User:Adeikov look bad, or something.

Please advice. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Both indefblocked as vandalism-only accounts. Adeikov uses that name elsewhere on the internet commonly it seems. I'm guessing this is some forum dispute spilling over to here. Moreschi (talk) 21:45, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Copyright and lists

I'm starting this discussion here since Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions seems to only deal with images.

A series of articles was created over the past several months, listing the Time 100 for each year:

• 2012 Time 100
• 2011 Time 100
• 2010 Time 100
• 2009 Time 100
• 2008 Time 100
• 2007 Time 100
• 2006 Time 100
• 2005 Time 100

My question really revolves around whether or not these articles should exist. Any material copied directly from another copyrighted source is obviously usually a copyright violation; however, we run into a grey area with lists. Misplaced Pages:Copyright in lists (an essay, not a guideline) says there's some ambiguity: A list that is compiled by factual criteria would be okay to copy verbatum, but a list that is based on subjective criteria is not okay. In this case, I think the lists are subjective enough that we can't copy them, and so I would have to think having these individual articles would then be useless.

My instinct is to redirect all of these to Time 100, but I wanted wider input first. Ready? Break! -RunningOnBrains 22:55, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree with the above - these articles are mostly copyright violation. I do not feel that copying a list is all that different from copying some prose. The list includes the same set of names in the same order as the page published by Times. It may pe possible to rescure the articles by relying on reliable secondary coverage of the Time 100 lists. --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Good question. In the past at AfDs I have seen arguments both ways regarding copyright status of lists. I've seen lists deleted as copyright violations and lists kept on the premises that the list isn't original enough to be a copyright violation. I'd like to see this clarified somehow. ThemFromSpace 23:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't Feist v. Rural make this material uncopyrightable? --Stefan2 (talk) 23:09, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Themfromspace - that's the point of Moonriddengirl's essay, Misplaced Pages:Copyright in lists, to try to clarify the situation but at the end of the day it's always going to be a judgement call. Stefan2 - I suggest you read that essay but in short WMF counsel advice is that Feist v. Rural does not always apply and it comes down the amount of creativity that went into the list. Telephone numbers are not creative so are not copyrighted per Feist v. Rural, however a list like this likely contains significant creative input as to who makes the top 100 and in what order and so is likely to be copyrighted. Dpmuk (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

We have had a reasonable discussion on this in the past with input from the Foundation legal counsel. Lists like these Time lists that are generated by creative process do qualify for copyright (eg, Feist v Rural can't apply here), and wholesale inclusion in WP is a copyvio. This doesn't mean we can't have articles on the lists if the lists are notable, or discuss an individual entry's position on the list, or even repeat a few entries if they are discussed in sources. But they are copyrightable.

There is one set of exceptions, that being the AFI lists which we have ORTS approval to include wholesale. This discussion is summarized by the last point of "Unacceptable uses / Test" at WP:NFC.

That said, as to merging the various years of TIme lists into article, it depends whether it's simply the fact that Time does top 100 lists each year (supporting the full merge) or if each year's list is of interest. If after the wholesale list inclusion is removed there's not much else, then merging might be right. But that specific decision is not appropriate for here. --MASEM (t) 23:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I have notice that some of the lists have been pruned to 10 or 25 members. I don't know what logic was used for which members, but I do understand now that these lists are copyvios. I do believe that there is annual media publicity surrounding each list. It is possible that each list could sustain an article, but I have not looked into this. I have since created lists where only 10 of the 100 listings are included on wikiipedia. I have no real argument for keeping the entire lists and am surprised it has taken this long for someone to come down on them. Do what you must. P.S., I don't think ANI is the right place for this decision to be made although there is consensus that seems to be heading toward a policy consistent resolution. I think there are COPYVIO boards for this type of discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:43, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's step back and think about it. Facts aren't copyrightable; only creative expressions are, whether fictional creations or methods of expressing facts. It is a fact that Time put Jeremy Lin at the top of its list of 100 most influential people (or whatever this list is), a fact that they put Novak Djokovic at fourteenth, a fact that they put U Thein Sein at sixty-seventh, etc. Does copyright prevent me from saying whom they announced for those three spots and for the other ninety-seven? No! From that point, listing them by the order of their influence (or whatever else it is) is a thoroughly unoriginal format and not copyrightable. I'm not going to comment on whether this is appropriate content for a page according to our content policies, but it's not inappropriate from a copyright standpoint. Nyttend (talk) 00:40, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

After stepping back and thinking about it per your behest, it seems that it is not a fact that person A is more influential than person B. That is the opinion of Time, and somebody expended creative effort to arrive at that ordering. When Stephen King writes a book, he generates a series of 140000 words according to an ordering that he invented, and while it can be shown as a fact that those words are indeed in that order, nobody is disputing that copying that would be a copyvio. But I do prefer to let the pros handle this kind of thing, as it appears has already happened above. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to be the advice that we've received in the past from WMF counsel e.g. Talk:List of highest-grossing Bollywood films. Hopefully Moonriddengirl will come in with a better history, and better links, of the advice we've received from counsel as I was only just getting started in copyright work when the copyright in lists issue started. However I'm confident that counsel said lists such as this could be copyrighted. Whether we agree with them or not I don't see how we can go against their advice. Dpmuk (talk) 01:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi. It's a bit late for me, but I wanted to stop by quickly. :) As I mention in my essay (other people have contributed, too; I'm calling it "my" essay to avoid it seeming like I'm claiming some other authority here, when I certainly am a major contributor there), to quote again from William F. Patry, copyright governs "compilations of things expressed as a value judgment" - whether or not a person is influential is a value judgment. We could as easily argue that it is a fact that prices listed in a wholesale coin price guide are listed at that price, but in CDN Inc. v. Kapes the court determined that the list in question was copyrightable because the creators followed a process that used "their judgment to distill and extrapolate from factual data" and that "This process imbues the prices listed with sufficient creativity and originality to make them copyrightable." I can't imagine that the process Time uses to compile its list of most influential is less creative than that. I can try to give more background and explanation in the morning, but I did just want to drop this for now. I think this kind of content is clearly creative. --Moonriddengirl 01:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

In addition to the copyright concerns, my thoughts are that the Time list itself should be considered WP:PRIMARY. We should be basing our edits on secondary sources. The Time list itself should not be a reference used to support the content in whole or in part. We should find reliable secondary sources to support statements about who is on the list and where they appear.WTucker (talk) 03:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• Well, i've alphabetized 2012 Time 100. I don't know if that helps with any copyright issues or not. I'm also a quarter of the way through having every name on the list referenced with a secondary source. This can be done for all the other lists too, if someone takes the initiative. Silverseren 06:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid that won't help; at best, it would create a derivative work. :/ Similar to your point below, we can't keep them just because we want to share the information - we can't supersede the value of the original. Creative lists are copyrighted. --Moonriddengirl 10:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Copyright questions aside, what value do we and our readers gain by having these articles? If they are articles about the lists - their creation, reception, influence, etc. - then they seem to be valuable and interesting. If, however, they're just copies of the lists then they don't seem very valuable at all. ElKevbo (talk) 07:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I think they should definitely be expanded to include information beyond just the bare lists. There's more than enough sources available to do so. Though the lists themselves are also important for the mere fact that not everyone on them has a Misplaced Pages article. Therefore, listing them and having a reference attached that explains them is also very useful and important. Silverseren 08:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

..."the lists themselves are also important for the mere fact that not everyone on them has a Misplaced Pages article". That's an intriguing definition of "important". To the point at hand, the lists themselves are only notable for the impact they have on the American chattering classes: there is little chance of there being reliable critical commentary of the lists themselves as most people understand that they are simply compiled to generate revenue for Time in the form of purchases by members of said chattering class. I don't even want to look, but could someone more willing to wade into the swamp which is arguing with people over notability of nonsense like this please verify whether we have an article for every FHM World's Hottest Women top 100 yet or not? Arguably more widely-read than Time's, and with far less in the way of agenda. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've blanked most of them; the only one that I didn't blank is the one that was limited to 25, but even that is by no means safe based on the feedback we received from one of the WMF's attorneys.
  
  People occasionally refer to me as an expert on copyright; I refer to myself as experienced. Some of my experience predates Misplaced Pages and some does not; copyright in lists is something that I never really worked with before coming here, and my familiarity with the issues grew based on the advice of other editors, the advice of Mike Godwin and other counsel with the Foundation and with my own reading.
  
  Feist v. Rural is a landmark case here, but I wonder if some people are confused about what Feist affirmed. The judgment is here. The courts did affirm that non-creative lists are not copyrightable and also helped more firmly establish that the US does not protect sweat of the brow, but it didn't say that creative lists are uncopyrightable, and it emphasized that "the requisite level of creativity is extremely low; even a slight amount will suffice. The vast majority of works make the grade quite easily, as they possess some creative spark, 'no matter how crude, humble or obvious' it might be". Explaining why the telephone directory in question is copyrightable, the court elaborated that "Rural may have been the first to discover and report the names, towns, and telephone numbers of its subscribers, but this data does not "`ow its origin'" to Rural. Burrow-Giles, 111 U.S., at 58 . Rather, these bits of information are uncopyrightable facts; they existed before Rural reported them, and would have continued to exist if Rural had never published a telephone directory."
  
  In the case of a creative list, we are not dealing with uncopyrightable fact; this list did not exist before Time reported it and would never have existed had Time not reported it. It is not a list of fact, but of opinion, which clears the threshold of originality. I don't believe that the originality question is even borderline here.
  
  There's a whole lot more reading, including some case law, some additional attorney opinion and some community opinions that dissent and support, at Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright in lists. There is also further reading in the archives of the copyright policy talk page and the copyright problems talk page. The community has been dealing with this since at least 2003. I don't want to overwhelm ANI, though, so I'm not going to draw in more just yet. :) --Moonriddengirl 10:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

  And I've blanked the one remaining as I don't see how even a top 25 is compatible with advice we received with respect to List of highest-grossing Bollywood films. Dpmuk (talk) 14:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Irvine Welsh's Ecstasy

I would like to request the IP ban of 70.24.25.103 - who is associated with the film Irvine Welsh's Ecstasy. Warnings have been issued on the user's talk page, and IP traces to the location of the user "RobHeydon", who is directly involved with the film. Negative reviews of the film have been edited and replaced with positives. IMDB rating was falsified from 5.0 to 9.0. Rotten Tomatoes negative reviews were removed. And any critical review that the user doesn't agree with is changed. This is conflict of interest. With that said, after sufficient warnings, I would like to have the IP banned and "RobHeydon" should not be able to make adjustments to his own film's Misplaced Pages page, to avoid neutral point of view.Marty2Hotty (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I notified IP 70.24.25.103 for you . Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 23:34, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

- Thank you. Does this prevent the IP from editing? Thanks again. - Marty2Hotty (talk) 00:12, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

No, it just lets him know about this discussion so he can come comment if he wants. Equazcion 00:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

- Thanks. Not sure he knows. He's still adding information that is not sourced. Marty2Hotty (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I just noticed this ANI in passing. FYI, IMDB ratings should not appear in articles anyway; IMDB is over-run by trolls voting, not to mention it's not a reliable source or a critics' rating. I've removed the sentence. Softlavender (talk) 01:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

- Thanks. But IMDb does have "weighted average" ratings that tries to filter out the trolls. The trolls tried to bump up the rating to 9.0 ("median") but IMDb has filters and tries to show the "variable average" rating. Thanks for clarifying on IMDb's removal. He will try and alter the negative critiques. I think there's too much conflict of interest, but we'll see. Marty2Hotty (talk) 01:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

IMDB cannot filter out the trolls. The weighted average is just that -- a weighted average. An IMDB rating should never ever appear in a Wiki article. As to the editor in question, he appears very very problematical, and has vandalized the article (and even its Talk page) repeatedly even after his previous block for doing so. I'd say another block is in order, and possibly an auto-protect for the article. Softlavender (talk) 01:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

- IMDb rating information duly noted. https://resume.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?votes Is an interesting page I read a few days ago about how IMDb filters out the ratings. The user noted a link to the "median" rating which was a 9.0, which IMDb filtered out and used their filters to have the best rating they can. But I can understand the exclusion of IMDb on Misplaced Pages articles. As for the editor, I agree. I think he shouldn't be able to edit that article due to conflict of interest. Thanks for everyone's assistance. Marty2Hotty (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

IMDB is usually regarded as a reasonable source for basic info such as cast-and-crew, year of release, etc. Not so for opinions and trivia. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Need help with a company removing controversial info about themselves.

Hi, I just stumbled across User:Actualjustice who according to their edits, is a representative of METROCON. They are removing info about their company that may be deemed as controversial. I am requesting an admin handle this matter due to the sensitivity of the situation. Thanks. Hghyux (talk to me)(talk to others) 02:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

COI or not, it looks like what he removed was a BLP violation. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Hghyux, please remember to follow the guideline at the top of this page. "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." Also, as Ron Ritzman points out, the edit is a completely ethical and legitimate edit in line with BLP policy as well as our NPOV pillar. Please take a moment to talk to the editor in question. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 02:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Yeumuvayeuem only contribs are VANDALISM please Block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yeumuvayeuem only Contributions are Vandalism, Please block Newmanoconnor (talk) 03:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Migrating this report to WP:AIV. —C.Fred (talk) 03:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Bansky of bulgaria.jpg

Don't really know Commons' procedure, but...

Come on, it has (c) Reuters in the corner, and gives name different to the person claiming copyright for the CC license. 86.** IP (talk) 04:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I nominated it for deletion there. --kelapstick 04:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Real Madrid/Barcelona

User:Suitcivil133 is constintly deleting real madrid information, I was reported and banned from wikipedia because I "vandalized" the FC Barcelona article when I removed information, this user deletes anything that shines on Real Madrid or has a negative impact on Barcelona, its not fair to see that if he or she is getting away with it, there was a picture of a 8-0 defeat on the page and Suitcivil133 removed it, today he removed a sentence that said "Real Madrid made history" and gave no reason for it, to me that is considerd vandalism, if I was banned for that why isnt he or she? 71.139.163.192 (talk) 04:37, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

They removed a claim that had been tagged with {{cn}} since January; the onus is not on them to provide references. You, however, left a talk page section titled "you a bitch" on their talk page, were promptly blocked for a week, upon your block expiring you followed up with this upstanding character assessment on their talk page. How you evaded being blocked for that PA I don't know. You need to log into your account and post either an {{unblock}} or {{adminhelp}} request on your talk page before someone blocks your IP account for trolling/harassing Suitcivil133 again. Also, you failed to notify Suitcivil133 of this frivolous complaint; I will do so for you. --64.85.221.47 (talk) 09:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

You are lying again. I removed it because there was no reference and because it was wrong. Also extremely subjective as the rest of that particular section. Moroever you are saying that I remove RM information? That is also not truth. In fact I am a regular contributor and often update the "Real Madrid record and statistics" thread and Spanish football records. But I am not surprised that this banned sock poppet has a problem with me because he was banned and I found him to be sock puppet vandalizing several pages and writting untrue claims. Moreoever he is the same person who threatened me with death without any reason on my talk page. I pity this person.--Suitcivil133 (talk) 11:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

• IP blocked for a month this time. New sock User talk:MadridFG7 blocked indeff. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Iamseba

Iamseba (talk · contribs) seems to creating duplicate pages about schools with various capitalizations, such as St lawrence higher secondary school Madathattuvilai and St Lawrence Higher Secondary School Madathattuvilai, and them immediately thereafter tagging them with {{db-g7}} or redirecting them, sometimes both in the same edit. In any case, the articles seem to be of pretty shoddy quality and could probably use a lot of cleanup. Canuck 09:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Cameroonian IP editor adding hoax again...

• Military of Cameroon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Patrolling Admins, please take a look at the aforementioned article page and apply semi-protection (indef if possible!) as this IP hopping editor from Cameroon keeps returning to insert artificially inflated figures and hoax content. Note that this patent nonsense has gone on for quite some time now and frankly, any Admin's close monitoring of the situation is very much welcomed. Thank you~! --Dave 11:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • I semi'd for another month. Request should really go to WP:RFPP next time.--v/r - TP 13:18, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks, although this is just the tip of the iceberg as the IP has been adding false information on many other military related articles in the past few months.--McSly (talk) 13:32, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Simulated child porn, etc etc

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Now that hopefully I have all of your attention from the section title, here's the diff, this is the user, and the image is on Commons. I have no idea what the relevant Misplaced Pages policy is regarding this, so I'll leave it to you guys. brb doing a Gutmann pass on my hard drive because of internet browser image cache, since I live in a dystopian country where loli is illegal, punishable by 10 years prison. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Commons uploader is probably same chap but not that user account - commons uploader is Sbardnafulator). Commons won't delete the file unless it's a copyvio - which of course it is. the game doesn't include images like these. I've blocked the wikipedia useraccount as vandalism only (anyone got a better category). Anyone got any brain bleach? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I doubt the image is under a free license, or that it is the uploader's own work as the file description claims. I can't verify my doubts though. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:57, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

If the image is a copyvio, it will appear elsewhere on the internet. I'm too paranoid to do a Tineye or Google reverse image search for obvious reasons. Is anyone from Russia or some other Eastern European country willing to try it out? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm on a college campus, so I'm certainly not going to look at the image or search for copyvios online (nor would I in any event—I have no desire to see CP!); but assuming it is as bad as you say, it should be oversighted or server-level erased because that is illegal in the state of Florida. Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The image is a 2D lolicon image of Cirno with a undeniably child body and... uhhh... underdeveloped vaginal opening being displayed towards the viewer. Cirno is a character from the game, however the game is non-pornographic and the image is definitely a fan artwork. I think if 2D simulated child porn is illegal in Florida, then the image in question certainly would be illegal. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks MRG. I have oversighted on wikipedia - reasonably certain it's illegal in Florida. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

NB - have corrected myself further up. For some reason I typed 'isn't' a copyvio instead of 'is'. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, file blacklisted (pending deletion on commons). Salvio 14:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Political shenigans

How is this an issue that requires administrator attention? Table fixed, btw... ‑Scottywong| comment _ 14:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I detect what is probably left-wing liberal sabotage in United States Senate election in Massachusetts, 2012. Look at the table with a poll (a whole table for one single poll with a sample size of 255...). Isn't it striking how the right side of the table has no bottom? This is clearly an effort by Democrat agent-provocateurs, intended to signify that the bottom has fallen out of Scott Brown's campaign. I would like for ArbCom to investigate--or for a cleverer person than me to fix the table. I will notify everyone in Category:Republican Wikipedians, of course, since the rest can't be trusted. Thank you in the name of (decently attired) Justice. Drmies (talk) 14:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

re:"How is this an issue that requires administrator attention?" Perhaps it is a heads-up of subtle vandalism which often occurs during peak political seasons; as a suggestion to place an article on a watchlist should the need to take administrative action arise. Be that blocking in case of 3RR, or protection of the said article. Of course I can't speak for Drmies, but just to note that I've added the article to my watchlist. Thanks for the tip Drmies. Feel free to drop any further issues at my talk page should it become unacceptable to place further notices on the admin. related boards. And TY to SW for the table fix. — Ched :  ?  15:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Ched. I actually just posted a similar message on SW's talk page (thanking him twice--he's not a peon anymore an admin now, so we have to treat him nicely). I did indeed plow through pages of history to see if it was a result of vandalism but found nothing. Note the talk page: there are suspicions of POV editing (quickly endangering the GA status), which will be very common this year, I'm afraid. We should have a user category like Category:Republican Wikipedians who are really neutral--read my lips, so we know who is trustworthy. What surprises me is a. how few politicians (and their tools) have discovered Misplaced Pages and b. how clumsy the ones operate that have discovered it. My fellow-check-to-Montessori-writing representative Joe Hubbard fit in the first, and one of his fans in the second category. The existence of Justin Bieber on Twitter is an easy way for us to double the number of articles on living, active politicians, by the way--and to double the POV and vandalism stuff. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion

Someone please have a look at Talk:Industrial_violence#Merger_proposal. It is over one year, and still not closed. --SupernovaExplosion 15:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Done. Rlendog (talk) 15:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

There are 15,074 articles with open merge proposals, some open for more than three years. Very very few need an administrator to close the move discussion. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 15:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow! It shows poor administration in Misplaced Pages. --SupernovaExplosion 15:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure, does an administrator have to do merge's or can any user complete a merge? MrLittleIrish © 15:56, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Depends on the type of merge; if it's a simple content merge, anyone can redirect the article to be merged and add whatever is supposed to be in the main article without assistance. If it requires a history merge, only admins can do that, and it's one of our more difficult tasks (I've been meaning to learn how to do it, because relatively few admins are willing to; one wrong move and you can create a horrible mess that takes a long time to fix). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:20, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

(ec with Blade) No, anyone can close almost all merges. Controversial merge discussions, like other content controversies, need an uninvolved Wikipedian of some experience, good standing, and dermal fortitude to close (Help:Merging suggests, but does not require, that this be an administrator). Administrators are needed only for hist-merges, which are very rarely necessary. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Chipmunkdavis

I have ended up in a conflict with Chipmunkdavis (talk · contribs) about the vandalisme tagging of Seyitahmetmrk (talk · contribs). I have tagged two of the edits of Seyitahmetmrk as vandalism, and later reported him as vandalism-only account. Mr. Chipmunkdavis disagreed with that and requested the blocking admin Terriersfan to unblock him. So far, so good. It should have ended there. Unfortunately, after that mr. Chipmunkdavis demanded an explanation. By now it feels like he is trying to discredited and taint me, combined with some low level personal attacks. I repeatedly (, ) asked mr. Chipmunkdavis to stop harassing (conform Misplaced Pages:Harassment, particlular Usually (but not always) the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to discourage them from editing entirely.) me, so I could go on with nicer things. His answer on my request Please stop harassing me, NOW. made his intentions loud and clear: I'm not, I simply want to know if you can back up the warnings you gave with any sort of policy or guideline. Can you?.

The full story can be read on:

1. User talk:Seyitahmetmrk, including two removals of the warning templates
2. User talk:TerriersFan#User:Seyitahmetmrk
3. User talk:Night of the Big Wind#User:Seyitahmetmrk

Due to his wish to go on with this, I request help. Night of the Big Wind _talk 16:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

This is not harassment, I see no personal attacks (low-level or otherwise), and an ANI report is premature and seems a bit silly. If you don't want to talk to CMD anymore, stop responding to him. Or say "I don't want to talk about this anymore". If you try to end it by saying "stop harassing me", it's unreasonable to expect him not to protest that he isn't harassing you. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Why is providing a new source that shows the city as 150% bigger years ago vandalism? Inaccurate? Maybe. Vandalism? Absolutely not. And you got a guy blocked for it. Of course he is going to be peeved. Apologize and maybe you both can move on. Quit trying to get folks blocked again by running here to ANI.--v/r - TP 17:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of source and original research at Conversion between Julian and Gregorian calendars

Insertion of original research by User:128.63.16.82, for example, this edit. As explained at length on the article talk page in the Need to review these conversions? section, the insertion is contrary to the contents of the cited source and, when the directions for provided with the table are followed, give wrong answers. I will provide a link to an image of this obscure source, in compliance with the crown copyright of the source, shortly. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:45, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Community sanctions enforcement request: Delicious carbuncle

(Note: this was originally filed at WP:AE but I've moved it here at the request of User:Lothar von Richthofen, as a more appropriate forum.)

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Prioryman (talk)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Placed by the Misplaced Pages community

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• 00:04, 2 May 2012‎

This edit on a user talk page repeats exactly the same subject matter as the topic of the discussion on the Administrators' Noticeboard that led to the interaction ban between DC and myself. To summarise: DC has taken it upon himself to act as a self-appointed vigilante "policing" my edits. He has stalked me on and off-wiki for nearly two years, even going so far as to create a "monitoring" thread about me on Misplaced Pages Review. This has led to repeated clashes on-wiki. An interaction ban was proposed by User:28bytes and enacted by User:ErrantX to enforce a complete disengagement between us. Under the terms of the ban, we are prohibited from "discussing each other, or interacting" at any venue. A narrow exemption is given for appealing the ban on the user talk page of ErrantX or to the Arbcom: "Please do not comment on, or otherwise interact with him, at any venue. If you want to appeal the ban for any reason please do so on my talk page (which will be excluded from the ban), or to Arbcom."

DC has blatantly flouted the IBAN by continuing his vigilante behaviour on a matter which is not remotely related to an appeal of the ban. This is especially egregious as (1) he has previously been blocked for breaching the ban and (2) as noted here, "editors topic-banned under ARBCC or banned from interacting with me ... aren't allowed to comment on this request here or on any other page on Misplaced Pages", which arbitrator User:SirFozzie has endorsed and asked to be enforced. After DC's previous block, User:Future Perfect at Sunrise told him: "I would want to come away from this with one unmistakable clarification: if ErrantX spoke of his page being "exempt" from the interaction ban, that does not mean his page is a place on which you are simply free to continue your fights. The consensus on AN was for a full interaction ban, not an interaction ban with loopholes." DC responded that he "never had any other understanding".

It's obvious from this incident that despite what he told Future Perfect, DC has not ceased stalking my edits and taking it upon himself to act as a self-appointed vigilante. This is precisely the type of behaviour that necessitated the IBAN in the first place and is an absolutely unambiguous violation of a clearly worded interaction ban. With two violations in only six weeks, it's clear that he has no intention of stopping this obsessive behaviour and the only thing that is going to put an end to this once and for all is a substantial block for him. Total disengagement has to mean just that, otherwise this IBAN is meaningless. The admin who imposed the ban, ErrantX, has said that if another admin "want to impost a block on DC for violating the IBAN that is fine by me."

For the record, I have abided by my side of the ban and have refrained from interacting with DC, or commenting on or off-wiki on him or his interactions with others. I've said repeatedly that I want nothing to do with him and I've stood by that intention. This intervention by DC has come out of the blue with no provocation of any kind on my part. I'm deeply frustrated that despite my restraint and avoidance of trouble, this nonsense is still continuing despite the interaction ban which was supposed to end it. Please resolve this once and for all. Prioryman (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

• Imposition of the interaction ban.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested