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Revision as of 12:37, 10 June 2012

Australia: Politics Start‑class Low‑importance

Health Services Union expenses affair is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Australian politics (assessed as Low-importance). Need help improving this article? Ask a Librarian at the National Library of Australia. The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.

Timeline

This article will be in a state of some flux for a while. I'll move material in the existing lead into a text (rather than table) timeline format. Although this is part of a wider affair involving the HSU, it appears more and more likely that it is Craig Thomson's part which will prove more important in a political sense, given the need to convince the other independents to support him. We also need a current event note on the top - I'll dig one up in a moment. --Pete (talk) 23:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC) So tempted to use the "current disaster" template! Which is what it is for the whole nation, really, given that it strikes deep into the heart of worker collective representation, not to mention the ongoing crisis of confidence in Parliament. --Pete (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC) I have "timelined" the material ported over from the CT article. The next step is to look at the FWA report, which has extremely detailed descriptions and documents on the relevant events. Following this, I shall add in the events of the past few days, which continue the spate of front page stories. --Pete (talk) 01:04, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Peter. There was a problem with the citation for April 6, 2009. I wasn't sure what that source you were trying to cite was but it was showing as an error in the ref list. The date is mentioned in the Nassios report so I just changed the cite to that for now. Feel free to change it to whatever you want. Also, at the end of the sentence under 26 March 2010, there's a "(43)"...I had no idea what that meant. Cheers, Sarah 13:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Page 43 of the report. It would be handy if I could just use one ref and qualify it inline by the page number - the chronology in the report goes for over 40 pages!!! Thanks for the help, I'm working on this but it's a little daunting given the wealth of material, the changing status and the massive media interest and opinions. But it's important to tell the story accurately as a ready reference. --Pete (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair Work Australia report

I'm moving steadily through the report. It's kind of depressing, reading it. Nassios has identified a great number of specific failings of Craig Thomson, rather than the most sensational reported in the media, such as payments for travel for non-HSU members, or payments to football clubs, or train hire which go well beyond his approval to spend money on general administration, or failure to manage the union office efficiently. When pressed by Nassios, Thomson fails to give any specific responses, provide details or identify individuals. Nassios, in comparison, provides forensic details. Pages of them. Chapters and annexes of lists and amounts and dates. Thomson promises reports and investigations which never eventuate. There's no oversight or approval for hundreds of thousands of dollars of expenditure and he just runs the finances into the ground. It's appalling.

However, I'm sticking to events and statements which are identifiable both in the report and in media reports. This is not an article on the FWA report, or Craig Thomson in general, but on the political scandal, and on that point there seems to be a lot of media opinion (and from labor insiders) that this if it doesn't sink Gillard entirely, will be a serious iceberg to deal with.

As for writing the article, there is a huge variety of major news stories to use as sources. This isn't some scuffle of infighting in some minor union, this is seen by the media as a big thing, and it has generated front page stories for three years now. This is already a Watergate-level scandal. --Pete (talk) 04:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Response to Parliament

I watched the speech and found it carefully crafted, based around the legitimate concept that depriving the voters of an electorate of their representation without some due process would be improper. The pressure on he and his family is undoubtedly heavy, but I think it a bit unfair to blame media and Opposition for events that occurred entirely within the union and ALP before he entered Parliament. He spent comparatively little time on the specific allegations and provided few details. I think that they were pretty much all denied or refuted before the day was out. I was particularly struck by his claim that photo-id would not be specifically recorded, and yet this is exactly what occurs in brothels and escort agencies. Merridy Eastman, in her book There's a Bear in There (and He Wants Swedish), describes the process of checking photo-ID and recording it (in green ink, no less), while Andrew Bolt prints excerpts from the bank's operating manual which instructs users to check ID and record the details. It is standard practice. Bolt also highlights three examples of calls to escort agencies made from rooms where Thomson only booked the one room for himself, rather than the block bookings he claims he made. The political impact of the speech in the context of this article on the affair is two-fold - he (and Gillard) survived the day, but the production of details that can be checked stirs the "Inspector Clouseaus" of the press gallery into further action and further front page news stories, which naturally increases the impact on the saga and this article. --Pete (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC) "I watched the speech too, and noted he gave what was a confession on some issues. He didn't directly state it, but he highlighted that the union was a mess before he assumed office and he worked to improve things. It may be inferred he did not improve them enough, but that is a defence and a confession. One does not know how it will end, but it is clear that he is under intense pressure and his 'support' from the ALP is not benefitting him. DDB (talk) 11:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who seriously suggests using Andrew Bolt as a reliable source is unfit to edit this article; there are numerous distortions of fact already present in this article, which violates Misplaced Pages BLP. For example, the Misplaced Pages editor who wrote that Thomson was 'forced out' of the ALP, when the ABC article referenced by the editor clearly states that Thomson's ALP membership was 'suspended', and that Thomson himself requested for his membership to be suspended. 121.216.230.139 (talk)

The issue is sensitive at the moment, and subject to BLP protocols. We should source everything. I'd like to see a balanced coverage on this, consistent with NPOV. Removing sources because you don't agree with them is not the best course of action here - we have an absolute smorgasbord of sources and if an editor feels that one view is predominating, add one from a different point of view. However, I strongly caution against using blogs as sources when we have mainstream media sources. Unless there is a good reason to use a minor source, such as the one publishing an email from Craig Thomson stating that he was "very happy" with the settlement. There currently seem to be about four POVs in general currency - that of the ALP, Coalition, media and Craig Thomson. We're not here to crucify the guy, nor whitewash him, but to tell the story of the political scandal which is filling the front pages. I might note that according to the various online polls, the percentage of respondents supporting/believing Craig Thomson is about 10%, so he's very much an extreme or fringe POV here.

What's the significance of the "Thompson/Thomson" spelling? Thomson himself isn't disputing that it was his credit card being used, presumably the issuer misspelt his name, which seems to be an extremely common error. --Pete (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The misspelled name on the credit card used to make the imprint on the franking slip allegedly sourced from "Keywed" indicates it is a blatant forgery. Craig Thomson disputes he was at the brothel and thus disputes he signed that fraudulent franking slip. I am uncertain if you lack the intelligence, or the integrity, or both, to avoid presenting this obviously tainted exhibit as a reliable source in Misplaced Pages. The only reason you would present it is to support and further the Liberal-National Party's defamation campaign. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 11:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the two Andrew Bolt articles to which the anon editor above takes such exception to, one of them consists almost entirely of Thomson's misleading email to Labor colleagues, in which he claims he was "very happy" with "settlements" of defamation actions launched against HSU and Fairfax. In point of fact he withdrew both claims after considerable legal expense and received no money, no retraction, no apology. Fairfax continued to print the allegations against Thomson on the basis that they were factual and was borne out by the Fair Work Australia report. This is critical to what makes this affair a political scandal - the Sydney Morning Herald printed some damning allegations, the story became front page news and Thomson's bluster and the ALP's attempts to hose the thing down add to the general interest, providing the twin elements of personal involvement, with Craig Thomson and his troubles one focus, and the survival of the unpopular Gillard government the other.

The second Bolt article second Bolt article rebuts claims made in Thomson's speech to Parliament, contrasting Thomson's statements with the evidence provided by Fair Work Australia and others. While Thomson's speech was made under Parliamentary privilege (and has itself spawned yet another inquiry), it is not exempt from scrutiny and rebuttal.

Who says the purported email on Bolt's blog is genuinely from Craig Thomson MP? Where are the message headers for that purported email? Given Andrew Bolt's established court record for reckless dishonestly, blatant libel, and sloppy, unprofessional research, any so-called evidence from Bolt must be held to the strictest standards of proof, or be deleted per BLP. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 11:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

While BLP must be observed, and any unsourced negative information swiftly removed, this does not apply to sourced statements. NPOV provides for presentation of diverse and contradictory views, and we may certainly give any views in support of Thomson due prominence. However, with public credibility in Thomson's statements running at 5-10%, his views should be treated as a minority or fringe opinion.

Regarding the wording of how Thomson came to leave the ALP, there is a conflict here. A great many sources state that he was "forced out of the ALP", or that Prime Minister Gillard "dumped" Thomson. Thomson claims he stood aside voluntarily, while Gillard claims it was her decision. Given that the PM has announced that Thomson will not be the ALP candidate for Dobell at the next election, we may again give due credence to the conflicting claims.

I appreciate that the Thomson affair is a major ongoing political scandal and that Thomson himself is being treated as a political football by competing interests, but removing reliable sources is not the way to report on the affair. We should use sources to present all sides, and if an editor is upset by the material provided by one good source, find another that provides a different view. We have an enormous range of sources at the moment. --Pete (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Andrew Bolt's writings are "a major ongoing political scandal". That is his job. He is paid by conservative media outlets to pander to the pre-existing ignorance and bigotry of their audience. In his last brush with the law it was also highlighted by the judge that his interest in truth is much lower than his interest in satisfying his audience. If we're looking for a neutral POV here, we should go nowhere near Bolt. It's never his goal. Oh, any source with the word "blog" in its url should also be an instantaneous "keep away" warning for Misplaced Pages editors. Given that there are so many sources available, it will be easy to avoid Bolt, and we must. HiLo48 (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm concerned about blogs pretending to be mainstream media, such as those running on Wordpress through some unknown URL. I'm less concerned about mainstream media pretending to be blogs, such as Bolt's. It's opinion sponsored by a reliable source, every bit as much as Michelle Grattan or Paul Kelly or the ABC's The Drum. We can and should take all opinion with a grain of salt, but when the readership is in the millions, we can give those opinions a bit more weight. And as you point out, satisfying the audience is what it's all about. Neutral point of view, as you should know, is not about finding an unbiased impartial source, so much as giving due weight to diverse reliable sources. Just because we don't personally agree with a statement or we don't like its author or we don't like their political leanings when commenting on a political case, those are not good reasons to disregard that source in favour of something that tells a different story. Why I like Bolt as a source in the two examples given is that he doesn't put his opinion into the pieces so much as he lays out the facts, exposing and rebutting the claims made by Thomson, and he does it in an efficient economical way. If we can find some source supporting Thomson's view, or better still rebutting Bolt with facts rather than opinion, then we should include that. But I'm not seeing a real lot on that side of the ledger. I'm seeing opinion and emotion and smoke and spurious arguments. Gillard and her henchmen are quite right to point out that Parliament is not a court, not a judge and jury. If votes to suspend members were acceptable, then she could convert her minority government into a majority in an afternoon's work. But when she is asked to explain what line had been crossed when she forced Thomson out of the ALP, then she is silent. She acted as judge and jury in that respect, and it's not just Tony Abbot making that point, it's every experienced political commentator. Misplaced Pages is telling the story of a major Australian political scandal here, not just in the sense that it will very likely end Gillard's career as Prime Minister, but in the sense that it is striking at the very existence of the union movement in that the union fees of members are being mis-spent. Whether it was Thomson who spent thousands on prostitutes or not, the money was still spent and apparently supported all the way to the top. Trying to put a spin on this thing is pointless when every day, on tv, radio, the front pages of the big papers, the fresh revelations come flowing in with the tide. And there's one big wave with Michael Williamson's name on it rolling steadily into the beach. --Pete (talk) 01:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I laugh at your view that Bolt uses facts alone. HiLo48 (talk) 02:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Not my view. I'd like for you to be serious. Please. This is a serious matter, and we should treat it as such. --Pete (talk) 05:35, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Even if you personally think that Bolt is a terrific journalist, a wise editor, taking this seriously, would realise that using him as a source is ALWAYS going to be controversial. It's just best to avoid him. HiLo48 (talk) 05:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. It's wrong. This is not an article about me, nor you, nor Andrew Bolt. Nor about Craig Thomson per se. It's about the political scandal, which is controversial to begin with. That's the whole point. If it were boring and uncontroversial, there wouldn't be an article. What I'm seeing is an argument directed at removing an excellent source because you and others don't like what he has to say. I'm guessing that if we removed every source that says what you don't want to hear, we'd have no controversy and no article.

Where I'm having difficulty, and where you could maybe help, is in finding good sources that say good things about Craig Thomson. My feeling is that he's been about as good a local member as anyone else, he's being used as a political football and he's being placed in a difficult, if not impossible position. But I'm not finding good sources for these opinions. Nor can I find any mainstream source that says his claims are credible. I don't think he's suicidal - in my experience the people who are fair dinkum about it don't send out warnings - but he's clearly under a lot of stress. I'm also looking to reduce the timeline to a series of dot points and expand the various aspects of the thing into sections.

I've given my reasons for liking those Bolt articles - not because I agree with his opinions, nor that I think he's a terrific political journalist - I would put Grattan and Kelly into that bucket long before Bolt - but because he provides a good pointer to Thomson's email claiming he was "very happy" with the defamation "settlement", and he concisely and authoritatively demolishes some of Thomson's statements in his recent speech. Find other journalists who give the same factual material and we can lose Bolt. --Pete (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Andrew Bolt isn't a reliable source. The courts have determined that Bolt is a reckless liar, racist, and defamer and his nonsense could never be called a reliable source. 121.216.230.139 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion does not mesh with Misplaced Pages's article on Andrew Bolt, which provides a balanced view. Please follow wikiprocedure if you have valid concerns. Deleting information because you do not like the content or the author is not good practice. Feel free to insert material consistent with WP:RS and WP:NPOV if you feel the article is slanted unfairly. I've restored the links you removed from my comments above, citing BLP problems. They are just links, not statements, and on reviewing the articles, they are well-sourced. BLP policy is strict, as it should be, but when negative statements have good sources, they are not to be removed just because they are negative. I note that this article was raised on the BLP noticeboard and discussion lapsed when i asked for specific details to be presented for discussion. If anyone has any valid BLP problems, then discuss them by all means. This is a sensitive issue, but I observe that Thomson's own opinion seems to be very much a fringe position, and putting it forward as unchallenged truth is a bit like letting the conspiracy theorists write the Apollo Program article. --Pete (talk) 01:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Skyring alias Pete, your ongoing attempts to use court-condemned racist and libeler Andrew Bolt - see http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/FCA/2011/1103.html - as a 'reliable source' means I can no longer assume good faith with you. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 09:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Bolt is paid to write extreme, largely right wing material. He has said so himself. He NEVER writes positive stuff about anything to do with the ALP. You simply must know that. Stop pushing this POV bullshit. Stick to simple, known facts. Avoid opinion pieces. If the simple facts without Bolt bias don't match your POV, maybe your POV is wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 01:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Journalists are paid - that's their job. What, specifically, don't you like about the information, apart from the author? As I've mentioned earlier, we would be unwise to accept Bolt's opinions, but the facts and material he unearths are good sources. --Pete (talk) 02:05, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

You know his aims. You must also rationally realise that he won't use a balanced selection of balanced sources. Please give up on this biased campaign of yours. Bolt is paid to be biased. You're not. That you choose to show such a politically one sided view here gives no credence to your claims to be trying to create a balanced article. Recognise that your own opinion (which, of course, you're entitled to), is not middle of the road, and should therefore not be reflected in the article. HiLo48 (talk) 02:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if Bolt is balanced or not, so long as we are. What statements made in the article, for which Bolt is used as a source, are problematic? --Pete (talk) 02:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

No. Just don't continue to act so dumb as to even want to use Bolt as a source. It's simply not smart. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you have anything specific to discuss? About this article, in particular? --Pete (talk) 03:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Skyring alias Pete, I do - your defamatory libel. Specifically, this comment of yours: "Fair Work Australia has commenced proceedings against Thomson in the Federal Court". A check on https://www.comcourts.gov.au proves your statement is a bold-faced lie and has thus been removed. I also note that YOU first inserted this libel onto the Craig_Thomson_(politician) page before starting this article. Let me guess; you got this crap from Bolt, eh? 121.216.230.139 (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has its standards on what are reliable sources and what are not. Bolt is not. Find another source for your content. It's as simple as that. HiLo48 (talk) 04:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have read most of what Bolt has printed since 1998, and cannot find the hyperbole many here refer to. Putting aside the inflation of a court case findings, it is usually possible to examine Bolt's references and justifications. He, like any good journalist provides them. It is valid to refer to an opinion of Bolt without calling it fact. I would welcome references to anything that Bolt has done that justifies the wild claims others put here, but please send them to me, and don't waste space on this page about the Craig Thomson affair. Unlike Bolt, Thomson does not justify himself and apparently made effort to remove material which might exonerate him of public suspicion of immoral behaviour. DDB (talk) 11:46, 8 June 2012 (UTC)DDB (talk) 11:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Any wise editor knows that Bolt is controversial. There is no point whatsoever in referring to his opinions. He is paid to express right wing, anti-ALP ones. They are of no value to Misplaced Pages. (The same would apply to someone paid to express anti-LNP views.) As for using Bolt's writings as a source for "facts", this is a dangerous approach. If they truly are facts, then find another source for them. If no other source exists, then they probably aren't facts. HiLo48 (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

User 121.216.230.139

This user has anonymously and selectively removed edits for no valid editorial reason. It is apparent that the new edits break npov rules and should be reversed. It is possible the user is Craig Thomson himself, or a paid ALP supporter with a vested interest. DDB (talk) 12:05, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at this diff, where a well-sourced, indeed triply-sourced after discussion, statement is removed, described as "vandalism"', it is clear we need more eyes on this article, and on the behaviour of this editor in particular. This disruptive and uncivil behaviour, in a sensitive and important article, needs to be directed towards something more positive. --Pete (talk) 16:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Ddball|DDB

This user has objected to the removal of biased materials and poorly sourced defamation for no valid editorial reason. It is apparent that the old edits break npov rules and should have been reversed. It is possible the user is Tony Abbott himself, or a paid Liberal National Party supporter with a vested interest. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

My suspicions have proven to be correct; the editor User:Ddball|DDB is David Daniel Ball, a member of the Liberal Party. Thus Ball has a vested political interest in defaming Mr Thomson for the benefit of his party. Ball should have recused himself from editing this article due to a blatant WP:COI.

Good pickup. That probably explains the irrational obsession with using Bolt as a source. And it is irrational. Any smart person, even if they wanted to do everything they could to get rid of Thomson, would realise that using Bolt is going to damage their case with a big chunk of the population. A real lack of perspective on display there. HiLo48 (talk) 22:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, as you state below, it is up to the courts to decide Craig Thomson's guilt or innocence - not the Liberal Party, not the ALP, not serial libelers employed by the media like Andrew Bolt and Kate McClymont, not Misplaced Pages, and not you or me. Until findings of fact are made which conform to the Evidence Act 1995, Australia's system of justice demands that a person is innocent until proven criminally guilty or civilly liable. For the record, I have no political party affiliations and I am not being compensated in any way by any person or group to edit this article; I do so because the smear campaign being undertaken against Thomson offends my sense of justice and I believe it undermines the very concept of justice - that, and the fact that no one else seemed to correct the bias after this article was reported to the BLP noticeboard by me the first time. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 01:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty much a newcomer to this article. It surprised me that it even existed. That in itself seems a bit POV to me. What we seem to be seeing here is similar to some of the rabid behaviour from LNP MPs that's allowed under parliamentary privilege, but cannot be published here. Some people don't seem to know the difference. HiLo48 (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am no longer a member of the Liberal Party, but I was. Can you point to where I am wrong in substance? I made no secret of my identity, unlike user 121.216.230.139 DDB (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have recommended registering to 121.216.230.139. As for your content, a tip. If you want to convince anyone not yet fully on your side that Thomson is an evil man, don't use Bolt. Grow some perspective here. If you have any brains at all you must realise that some people adore Bolt and some despise him. You won't change the minds of those in the latter group by using him as a source. Find a less controversial one. And don't try to bypass the proper legal process. That's the worst thing about the behaviour of Abbott and his mates on this matter. Thomson may be very bad, but it's up to the courts to decide, not a bunch of politically biased players. HiLo48 (talk) 23:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Putting aside opinion, have you anything of substance? I would point out I have not used Bolt, or quoted him here. As for the accusation that I have prejudged Thomson, I have not and neither can you find anything that I have written which does. What has happened that makes you assume people do? I would ask that you write for yourself, and not your side DDB (talk) 01:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

What is my side? HiLo48 (talk) 01:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You wrote "If you want to convince anyone not yet fully on your side" it is a logical extension that you are claiming one. DDB (talk) 02:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. You clearly have an alignment with the Liberal Party's approach on this matter. That puts you on a side. Labor Party members and supporters might well be expected to be on what could be called the other side. I'm not aligned with either. In sport and in life I seem to find myself more often in the role of umpire or mediator. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for not speaking for everyone but yourself. I have some five million words online and have never abrogated my position to a mere party line. I am not now a member of the Liberal Party. Now could you please address my question? DDB (talk) 12:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's just follow Wikiprocedure, shall we?

Looking at some of the recent comments here, it seems that we have som new editors with strongly held opinions. First of all, you are all welcome. Second, please follow the established procedures and policies here. They work. Even when editors have strongly opposing views, they work.Calling other editors names and accusing them of bias and being disruptive is not going to get your point of view to prevail over all others. It's going to get you in trouble, suspended, topic-banned or worse.

Misplaced Pages works in controversial subject areas - such as this one - primarily because we use reliable sources and a neutral point of view. I urge all to examine these policies, follow them, and check that other editors do the same. In short, we don't insert material that we think should go into the article - even if we know it for a fact - unless we have a published source for it. A scholarly or official publication is best, a news item or specialist website is good, a blog or a discussion board is pretty well worthless.

Neutral Point of View doesn't mean we present one impartial line. It means we give opposing views space commensurate with their credibility and community acceptance. We can tell two or more stories and let our readers make up their own minds, by examine the sources. Clearly we have such a situation here.

121.216.230.139, can I suggest that you create an account, which will make things easier for all involved, especially you. Can I also urge you to look at how to respond to other editors within a discussion so that it is clear who said what in reply to who. Respond at the end of someone's comments and follow the indentation sequence - just add another colon.

Regarding your accusation of a "bold-faced lie" above, I suggest you examine the source provided - ABC News - which I used as a basis. I didn't go checking any court registered, I merely used the ABC's reporting.

On using Bolt as a source, may I suggest that editors review WP:I DON'T LIKE IT. If there is anything specific in what he says and is used in this article, discuss it. Don't just reject it, because if we start down that path, we're going to be rejecting a lot of sources from one side or the other, and poor old Craig Thomson isn't going to fare well in that area.

And finally, I repeat that this is an article that is both politically sensitive and concerns an actual living human being. Our opinions, both for and against, are not as important as getting it right. It would be really great if we could work with each other to do this. --Pete (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you examine the source provided - ABC News - which I used as a basis.Pete, you are now proven to be a pathological liar; the cited ABC News article does NOT mention any specific action in relation to Craig Thomson. It states: "FWA's investigation into the embattled union had already found 181 contraventions of rules and legislation, and today general manager Bernadette O'Neill asked lawyers to begin legal proceedings in the Federal Court." The underlined section in the cited article hyperlinks to another article on ABC News, which categorically stated the contraventions involved the HSU national office along with two current officials, a former auditor, and one former official. You know perfectly well that none of those are Craig Thomson and you also know perfectly well that their names have already been released to the media. Stop lying, stop posting defamation, and stop re-inserting the delusions and smears perpetrated by libelous racists for use in the biography of a living person. Small wonder that HiLo48 was incensed by your kookery, especially when you kept baiting that editor with the blatant stupidity I have written about here. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who thinks Bolt is a sensible source to use for an article like this is NOT trying to work cooperatively, or has rocks in their head. I have explained why in several ways in the thread immediately above. That you have ignored all of that shows either a poor perspective or pure bias. Drop the artificial niceness and be a little more realistic. HiLo48 (talk) 07:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Wrong on all counts. Bolt provides two things in the sources I used:

1. a link to Thomson's email after the defamation case against Fairfax was settled
2. a list of specific rebuttals to Thomson's statement in Parliament.

I don't care for Bolt's opinions, nor have I quoted any. We can use biased sources - for example Thomson's address to Parliament - so long as we follow NPOV guidelines. Just because you or anyone else doesn't like what Bolt or Thomson have to say about this matter is of no consequence. We are not trying Thomson and delivering a verdict, we are presenting the situation and including relevant points of view. Now, please desist with the personal attacks and assumptions. --Pete (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

As I said above (where you haven't even responded) "using Bolt's writings as a source for "facts" is a dangerous approach. If they truly are facts, then find another source for them. If no other source exists, then they probably aren't facts." And don't change the article when nobody has replied to your views. HiLo48 (talk) 10:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways. I did exactly what you asked, by supplying another source. I'll add in VexNews as well, shall I? --Pete (talk) 10:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You didn't do what I asked. I asked for no Bolt. You included Bolt. Are you stupid? HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I have now given you two other sources and there are many more available. Bolt quotes the entire Thomson email, so he's a better source in that regard. But I've included the VexNews link as well. I'll keep on working on it. I'd really like for you to address the content, rather than making increasingly uncivil attacks. This is well-sourced material, reported in major newspapers. The $240K payment by Thomson to Fairfax was reported this morning - it's all over the media - and needs to be included. --Pete (talk) 10:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the edit summary for this diff, could you please explain your apparent lapse of WP:CIVIL? I supplied another source, one of thirteen pages worth of google hits in australian newspapers, exactly as you requested, after I asked over a period of some time for any comments on the specific points raised. There were none. I have now added the original Vexnews source. If I dig some more, I'm sure I can find more. --Pete (talk) 10:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You ignore what others say. You're either stupid, or rude. HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Is that you playing mediator, HiLo? DDB (talk) 12:16, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I'm trying to get an editor to think about the impact of their behaviour. I couldn't think of any other explanation than stupid or rude. Can you? HiLo48 (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Very happy with settlement

When googling the text of Thomson's email explaining the settlement of the defamation case, I find over a dozen pages of hits, mostly stemming from news reports in Australian cities and towns. I have not seen any statement from Thomson or any other player that the email is incorrect, fraudulent, quoted out of context or in any way anything other than what it purports to be. It is consistent with Thomson's other claims about the defamation action, in which he implies that Fairfax dropped the case. In fact, as we today learnt, Thomson paid $240 000 to Fairfax, and Fairfax continued to publish their claims. Accordingly I have reinserted the source and added another. The original source dates from June 2011 and is one strongly supportive of Thomson and critical of Fairfax. It seems most unlikely that VexNews, which has continued to support Thomson, was somehow publishing a fraudulent email and left it uncorrected for a year. --Pete (talk) 10:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

AFAIC, it has no message headers. It therefore may be a forgery. Anyone remember Gordon Gretch? Without message headers, it is not a reliable source - no matter who reposts it - and Misplaced Pages policy is clear on this point: it must be removed. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

And you did that re-adding and adding without waiting for any discussion! Find some manners! HiLo48 (talk) 10:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've asked several times for comments on the specific points raised by Bolt and nobody has come up with any. How much longer do I have to wait? I prefer Bolt and McClymont to VexNews as a source, simply because they have wide distribution, compared to VexNews's blogsite, but I see no reason to doubt that VexNews published a genuine email from Thomson. --Pete (talk) 10:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Skyring alias Pete, Bolt and McClymont are both court-established defamers; McClymont is in the employ of the defendant in the Thomson defamation case, making her a questionable source at best. Citation of their material in this article will therefore be deleted immediately upon discovery, per Misplaced Pages policy. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Wait. Discuss. Be patient. Unless you're busting to see Thomson in gaol or something so Tony can become PM, there is no rush. HiLo48 (talk) 10:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The story about the ALP paying Thomson's legal bills, including $240K, broke this morning. It's a major development. I don't think Thomson is going to be convicted of anything soon - he hasn't been charged with anything. Let's just report developments in the case. It would help if you'd help with the article instead of being disruptive. I can see a lot of work that needs to be done. As for discussion, could you please comment on the points raised, as requested several times? --Pete (talk) 10:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

No, User:Skyring alias Pete; poorly sourced, unsourced, unreliably sourced, and defamatory material will be deleted per Misplaced Pages BLP policy. Deal with it. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

There is still no rush. This is an encyclopaedia, not a breaking news service. If you want to see some new words in the article, propose them here, with your sources. (Excluding Bolt!) Wait until others (not just me) have commented. You seem very excited by this story. That's not the best mood to be in to create great content. HiLo48 (talk) 10:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm very excited? I suggest you count up your exclamation marks over the past day and note the trend. How much time do you need to comment on Thomson's email? it's been at least a day since I asked here. You could help a bit - I'm going to go over the edits made by our anon editor newbie, but I'm going to be busy tomorrow, so if you could check them for me, it will save a bit of work. --Pete (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

NO BOLT!!! NO BOLT!!! NO BOLT!!! You're a defiant, arrogant prick. Do you pay any attention at all to what others say? HiLo48 (talk) 10:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid not, User:HiLo48 - not with it conflicts with their POV or their party's interests. May I suggest the best course of action when faced by recalcitrants (like these two lackeys of Gina's butler) is to ignore them and not be baited by their smarmy insincerity; it's obvious they're pretending to play nice and pretend to be helpful so their defamatory attack page remains as such. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could read my response above on this specific point and discuss. You could also respond to my polite request for an explanation of your breach of WP:CIVIL. I'm moving through the checklist provided there, and you could work through the steps with me. --Pete (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

YOU could fucking wait!! Repeatedly changing the article while discussion is still underway is more unfuckingcivil than any naughty fucking words. You are a rude, impatient prick. I give up. HiLo48 (talk) 11:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Could I ask you to remove or reword your uncivil phrasing above? Please? --Pete (talk) 11:29, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You could ask, but there's no fucking point. You've fucking ignored everything I've said. Why should I obey you? Are you used to that sort of power? HiLo48 (talk) 11:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to constructively criticise, Pete, but as far as I can tell you path and direction seem reasonable and balanced. DDB (talk) 12:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

HiLo, could I at least get you to read the Bolt source? I'm not using it for anything actually written by Bolt. Not one word. It is there as a vehicle for Thomson's email about the Fairfax "settlement", which Bolt quotes in full from a strongly pro-Thomson blog, made a year earlier. Kate McClymont also references that email, which is widely republished. Thomson's email, in the light of subsequent revelations that he dropped the case and paid Fairfax $240 000, goes directly to his credibility. I note that our friend the anon newbie has removed this, including the ABC News source, describing it as vandalism and I'll be taking that matter further. --Pete (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Could you post this bolt sources for investigation please - Youreallycan 17:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's the material the anon editor removed, claiming "vandalism": Thomson claimed that although the settlement was confidential, it was one with which he was very happy. In fact, Thomson paid Fairfax $240 000 in settlement and the newspaper continued to publish the allegations. --Pete (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

1. Bolt, Andrew (9 June 2009). "The gloat may cost". Herald Sun. Retrieved 17 May 2012.
2. McClymont, Kate (23 May 2012). "Email shows MP misled caucus". National Times. Retrieved 9 Jun 2012.
3. "SMEARED THEN CLEARED: Craig Thomson to sue Fairfax defamers once more". VexNews. Retrieved 9 June 2012.
4. Coorey, Phillip (9 June 2012). "ALP paid $350,000 for Thomson legal costs". Sydney Morning herald. Retrieved 9 June 2012.

• Opinionated bloggers and claimed private emails as a minimum need clear attribution - It is unclear ( and I have tagged the article for such reasons) has the subject of the article been found guilty of anything in a court of law? Youreallycan 17:59, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

In relation to any matters in this article: no, he hasn't. More than that, he has not been charged with any criminal matters which are the subject of this page, nor (at time of writing) have any civil proceedings commenced with him as a defendant. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Liberal Party of Australia minions are editing article

It appears that minions of the Liberal Party of Australia are editing this article, with the intent to push a pro-LNP bias into the article. One such minion claims he has left the LNP, yet a YouTube video of him retrieved today still remains active where he categorically states that he is a member of the organisation. Given that this editor refuses to acknowledge that using a source which is severely biased at best and has been held liable for defamation and racism on numerous occasions in a BLP article is totally inappropriate means that good faith can no longer be assumed. WP:COI must be invoked. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• The conflicted contributors WP:COI need to back off/stop editing this article - there are serious WP:BLP issues arising here and it needs to stop - I will be asking other experienced wikipedia contributors to watch this article and the Biography - Youreallycan 14:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

At last! Thank you. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This article needs more eyes on it. I am appalled at some of the personal attacks being made here. New editors may be mistaking Misplaced Pages for some online forum, but there is really no excuse for experienced editors. If this sort of thing continues, admin intervention is going to be needed. --Pete (talk) 17:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so you noticed the "personal attacks", did you? Did you also notice people asking you to not use Bolt, to slow down, to actually discuss, rather than telling then posting, to stop using Misplaced Pages to try to bring down a government? HiLo48 (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:HiLo48, it's clear to me that User:Skyring alias Pete is playing The Misplaced Pages Game. With regards to adding the trash expectorated from creatures like Bolt as sources, Jimmy Wales' policy is very clear: Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information No one in their right mind would use Bolt as a source unless they are pushing a POV. I also note with interest the comments of User:Youreallycan who I presume is not in Australia; it appears, after reading the article, that this editor was unable to establish if Mr Thomson had been criminally charged or civilly sued in relation to the matters in the article. So it seems to me that User:Skyring alias Pete has succeeded in creating an attack page. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

As I've tried to point out to the anti-Labor crew here, even if they're pushing a POV, they'd still be mad to use Bolt. Everyone who is aware of him knows that he is controversial. If your argument depends on Bolt alone, it's a crappy argument. If Bolt helps you find other sources, fine, use them. Anything would look better than using Bolt. And for Youreallycan, if you're American, using Bolt as a source here would be like using Bill O'Reilly for objective opinion on a Democratic Party Congressman. Not sure who the equivalent UK public bigot is at the moment. HiLo48 (talk) 07:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Defamation action against the Sydney Morning Herald

The previously removed material, sourced from Fairfax Media's 'mytalk.com'au' site has been restored. An explanation justifying the reasons for the source's reliability has been left at the WP:RSN. It is necessary to add this essential and crucial information to the article in order to provide the balance it currently lacks. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 06:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about essential and crucial information, but it is certainly a topic that should be included - if we can determine that the images are what they purport to be, the documents used to charge prostitutes to Craig Thomson's credit card. After all, if one insists on headers to judge the veracity of an email, surely one should insist on equal verifiability for images of documents. I'm not convinced that these are actual images of documents tendered to complete the transaction - just how, exactly, does an outcall prostitute scan a drivers licence? Checking the name and face, certainly. Recording the information on the back of the credit card slip, also feasible. But does an escort lug around a photocopier? And who in their right mind would let a prostitute take a scan of their drivers licence?

I think that if the email from Thomson goes, this must also be removed for exactly the same reasons.

Moving on, I think that we should include some points about the defamation case:

1. Thomson's language and claims about how the defamation case was dropped. He attempted to portray it as a "settlement" that was in his favour.
2. Thomson dropped the defamation case, and paid $240 000 to Fairfax in a settlement.
3. The NSW ALP paid Thomson the money to settle with Fairfax.

If we are looking for essential and critical information - that is it right there: Thomson was unable to counter the allegations raised in public by Fairfax, and had to pay to settle the case. Why pay Fairfax a quarter of a million dollars if the allegations are false? It's not as if Fairfax stopped publishing their claims against him - they kept right on going. --Pete (talk) 10:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I heard a rabid dog yapping in the distance, and I chose to ignore it. Dogs tend to make incoherent yapping noises simply because they can; they do not need to make any sense when they do, and they never have any idea what they are yapping about. Sometimes the sound of the yapping mongrel can't be ignored any more and then further steps need to be taken. To stop rabid mongrels yapping, they are firstly best neutered, then muzzled, then taken to the pound, and then finally put to sleep. 121.216.230.139 (talk) 12:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

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