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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the WikiProject Television/Television stations task force page.

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Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Déclic-Images --Gwern (contribs) 16:41 7 March 2010 (GMT)

Style and formatting issues

I'm gonna offer up a chance for those who follow this page to compare and contrast these two introductory paragraphs.

1) This is a revision I made recently at WVNS-TV, and incorporated into three other articles (WOWK-TV, WTRF-TV, and WBOY-TV):

"WVNS-TV, channel 59, is a television station licensed to Lewisburg, West Virginia, USA. Owned by West Virginia Media Holdings, WVNS is the primary CBS affiliate for the Bluefield-Beckley television market, which also covers portions of southwestern Virginia. WVNS also carries programming from Fox and MyNetworkTV over its second digital subchannel (59.2). The station's studios are located in Ghent, West Virginia, and its transmitter is near Alderson, West Virginia. WVNS-TV is one of four West Virginia television stations owned by West Virginia Media Holdings; the other outlets are fellow CBS affiliates WOWK-TV in Huntington and WTRF-TV in Wheeling; and NBC-affiliated WBOY-TV in Clarksburg."

2) This is what is on the WVNS-TV page now, a version that a couple of editors "prefer":

"WVNS-TV is the CBS affiliate for Southern West Virginia and Southwest Virginia that is licensed to Lewisburg. It broadcasts a high definition digital signal on VHF channel 8 from a transmitter on Keeney's Knob between Alderson and I-64. Owned by West Virginia Media Holdings, the station has studios on Old Cline Road in Ghent along I-77. Syndicated programming on WVNS includes: Wheel of Fortune, Jeopardy!, The Oprah Winfrey Show, and Rachael Ray."

At issue here is what includes the most relevant information and makes for a better, easier read for the average (non-enthusiast) reader. My argument is that not every minute detail (no matter how "important" it may be to some editors) needs to be included, and that intros should be written very simply. In my opinion, the intros written by Strafidlo and endorsed by Neutralhomer, are long-winded and distracting from a writing standpoint, not to mention confusing to the average reader.

Another issue I'm having here is overall uniformity. What is done for one should be done for the whole lot of them. No one editor, or group of editors, should be given a tight grip of control over a swath of articles that when another editor comes along and makes valid, good-faith changes, they get immediately dismissed as "unhelpful" (as Neutralhomer said to me) or even worse (vandalism). How is this acting in good faith? Someone please explain, and give me an honest opinion. DreamMcQueen (talk) 16:56, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I know you and I have had our issues, but I can agree that there should be some sort of uniformity on these TV station articles. Quite frankly, as someone who has viewed many, if not all, of the TV station page here, many of them are written very "piss-poorly". I'm created some here, and I've done my research on these subjects and even going on personal memory, and I take pride in the work I do here. There are people, whether intentional or not, that have their own agendas, and it ultimately destroys the fun on being a Misplaced Pages editor. That said, I don't believe in "dumbing-down" things, as you're basically suggesting...it shouldn't be our problem that the average reader can't understand the information presented on these articles. It's going to be real hard to get everyone on the same page, in terms of editing.

Just my honest and humble opinion... ShawnHill 19:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

At least we come from the same place on the uniformity issues, but I disagree on the "dumbing-down" of the articles. This sub-community should not be a haven where the uber-geeks and inclusionists have free reign. For example, the average reader doesn't care about the "digital channel number" or the precise location of the station's transmitter, or anything like that. I can itemize line-by-line problem spots and what I think should be fixed and bring it to the community as a whole if given the chance. Change has to start somewhere. DreamMcQueen (talk) 03:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

• This is a 💕 that everyone can edit and everyone has a different writing style. We don't do uniformity on really any of the articles here because it would create something that isn't "free". It would require everyone to write in the same style...and since we aren't all little gray blobs with the same personalities, styles and everything, we are all different, a uniform version of anything will never happen. It would be nice, but with so many different writing styles, it would be impossible. Plus, I am pretty sure it would violate a couple WP:NOT rules. Unformity would change this project and Misplaced Pages itself to a point it would no longer be "free". So, a uniform television station article (or any article) is 'not a good idea. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:00, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Since when does "uniformity" equate "not being free"? I don't see the correlation in that. What I am advocating is how the articles should be formatted and structured, and that includes what/what not should be included and where everything should go. Of course you need a template, then you take it from there. I acknowledge that there are many different writing styles, but there are also various levels of enthusiasm when it comes to this topic. Some editors need to be tamed in that respect. DreamMcQueen (talk) 07:24, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

We have a template right here. The infobox is the other template. There ya go.

As for your "uniformity", what you describe is not "free". When you have that many rules in place, that isn't free. Maybe you need to read Misplaced Pages:NOT#Community. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I have. DreamMcQueen (talk) 07:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Try reading it again...and then maybe a third time. I'm going to bed, cause this conversation couldn't bore me anymore than it already has. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 07:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh boy. The encyclopedia is "free" in that it's available to all at no cost. Everybody is "free" to edit the encyclopedia (minus a few folks that have earned a ban) because all are welcome without regard to credentials or even verification. But it's not a "free-for-all" in the sense that there are no rules. There are plenty of rules, mostly established by consensus over many years, and any editor would be wise to follow them. (Yes, "ignore all rules" is also a guiding principle of Misplaced Pages but that's a call for judgment, not a license to run wild through the streets with no pants and your hair on fire.)

Personally, I think the lead sentence of every American broadcast station (radio or television) should start something like "WKRP (1530 AM) is an American radio station licensed to serve the community of Cincinnati, Ohio. Established in 1979, WKRP is owned by Carlson Broadcasting and the station's broadcast license is held by Turkeys Can Fly, LLC. The station broadcasts a talk radio format including programming from CNN Radio." For obvious reasons, the TV stations will include variants on this style as in the first example listed above. Listing specific programs in the lead paragraph? No. Giving the street address (or major intersection) of studios and transmitter? No. I'd even save the sister stations for the second paragraph along with any details of ownership beyond owner and license holder. - Dravecky (talk) 08:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

What I said was it was free...we do have rules, yes, but we aren't all conformed to certain writing style or a template to create articles. Each one has a little something different. None are exactly the same, which is what DreamMcQueen is proposing. What he wants is uniform conformity of all articles. That just won't and can't happen. I use my gray blobs analogy again, if we all had the same writing style, the same way of creating things, the same speaking style, then we could, but we can't. We are all different and we write in different ways, then there is the whole "💕" thing.

I am fine with a little uniformity in the lede...a little, but not much. Most articles have it, but beyond that, it is, kind of a free-for-all in writing styles. And in my defense, "as God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." - Neutralhomer • Talk • 21:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Dravecky. This is one of the points I was trying to get across:

"Listing specific programs in the lead paragraph? No. Giving the street address (or major intersection) of studios and transmitter? No. I'd even save the sister stations for the second paragraph along with any details of ownership beyond owner and license holder."

Now, we're getting somewhere in terms of dialogue. DreamMcQueen (talk) 21:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

In both versions I have a problem with the license to a city. With that clause it seems like the city has say who has the station license. I think we have to mention that they are a TV station as we need the basics and there are radio stations and cable channels that have name using the K/W??? format like WOLV (TV), WWOR WGN, W/TBS. Some of the Ion affiliates are just cable channels, too (not that I expect that they have an article) but indicates that just mentioning the network affiliate is enough. Basically, any encyclopedia including WP needs to cover the basics. It isn't here as a programming guide or recreation of the stations website's information. The basics are call letters/sign/name, that it is a TV station, virtual channel number, location/(market?), 1st year of broadcast, owner, current affiliations, previous call letters and whether or not it plexes (uses subchannels). So I prefer Dravecky's version the most then DreamMcQueen's. Not sure that the licensee holder is need as the FCC still treats ownership changes of the licensee corp. the same as a change in licensee. Spshu (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

On owner vs licensee, in radio Clear Channel Communications owns thousands of stations but thanks to mergers, swaps, and restructuring the license-holding corporations have more than a dozen different names, without consistency in any media market. (This is less of a problem on the TV side, obviously.) Often the license holder can stay the same while actual ownership changes. Listing both allows a reader to see both the legal entity holding the license and the probably more familiar corporate umbrella under which it rests. Dravecky (talk) 23:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• In reference to DreamMcQueen's behavior (and since it has been exhibited here), I am notifying you all of an ANI Thread regarding his behavior and edit-warring. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

RE: List of CBS television affiliates (table)

I'm not sure if you people welcome the removal of the DMA numbers from this article. This makes the affiliate listings inconsistent here. I am currently in edit war with the editor responsible. Please remember to indicate talkback on my talk page. Thanks. Fairly OddParents Freak (Fairlyoddparents1234) 14:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

DMA listings are NOT allowed per an OTRS ticket. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 16:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

+1. Do not readd them FOPF, DreamMcQueen has it right. We're not allowed to use those rankings at all (see the archives for the many discussions about how we're not allowed to use them or face a Nielsen cease or desist. There are other issues between that user that you need to work out though, so I would suggest you take a break and let the admins sort things out. Nate • (chatter) 00:08, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Can some representative from the project begin stripping DMA numbers from the NBC and FOX tables and begin merging the two tables together? Fairly OddParents Freak (Fairlyoddparents1234) 16:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of media markets and college football

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page has been explicitly using Nielsen's DMAs since before the takedown, apparently flying under the radar by not actually being part of WikiProject Television Stations, despite linking to its market templates. As such, I expect that the expertise of someone familiar with that situation will be greatly welcomed in this deletion discussion. Morgan Wick (talk) 05:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Morgan, you have a good argument for deletion for sure. No cites and arbitrary criteria, and copyright-violating information? It's a textbook AfD case for sure. Nate • (chatter) 06:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

KTSB-CA

Wondering if someone wants to take a crack at the best way to clear this up. The existing article represents the facility ID that the FCC reflects in their archival records as DKTSB-LP, channel 43 in Santa Barbara. I can't determine the reason that the license was cancelled/call sign deleted. Meanwhile, the station currently holding the KTSB-CA call sign is what was previously KTSB-LP's Santa Maria channel 35 translator, K35ER. Thoughts? Mlaffs (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

KTSB-LP went off the air on November 12, 2008, and its license automatically expired a year later when it did not return to the air. For whatever reason, Entravision's attorney sent a letter at this time requesting cancellation of the license (although it would have expired on November 13, 2009 whether or not they had done so, by statute). The original application for remain-silent authority, BLSTA-20081217ABB, states fairly clearly that the station was destroyed in a fire (as were several other stations located on Gibraltar Peak). Six months later, they filed for an extension of the STA, stating that they were planning to rebuild. Speculation: if they had been given more time, Entravision might perhaps have rebuilt that facility, but the Act gives the FCC no discretion whatsoever to extend licenses of stations that have remained silent for a year. Due to the large number of stations which were affected by the fires, it is very likely that they could not have arranged for site access and trained contractors to rebuild the station before the one-year deadline expired (at least not without spending more than the station was worth). Some of the transmitter buildings burned to the ground and would have had to be rebuilt before station construction could begin. 121a0012 (talk) 01:57, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

HELP!

On List of CBS television affiliates (table), I slightly changed a sentence from "This list does not include other CBS Corporation-owned stations which are either independent or affiliated with The CW Television Network", to this: "This list does not include other CBS Corporation-owned stations which are either independent or affiliated with The CW Television Network; a list is available the article CBS Television Stations." Is this allowed per guidelines? Because User:DreamMcQueen has some issues with this and keeps reverting my edits. Please be advised of an edit war history.

Fairly OddParents Freak (Fairlyoddparents1234) 01:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't List of CBS television affiliates (table) be at List of CBS television affiliates? There's nothing that "(table)" appears to be disambiguating from that I can find. I'd just boldly move it but since it's under discussion, I thought it prudent to ask first. - Dravecky (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, wait, there's List of CBS television affiliates (by U.S. state). This just requires a dab page. Never mind. - Dravecky (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, fixed for the four major U.S. networks. It seems to me that these pages could be merged but unless and until they are, they need to be easily found by readers. (Done.) - Dravecky (talk) 23:39, 11 July 2012 (UTC)