Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:39, 28 July 2012

Disambiguation

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all disambiguation pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.DisambiguationWikipedia:WikiProject DisambiguationTemplate:WikiProject DisambiguationDisambiguation

• WT:MOSDAB

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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Linking to Wiktionary section

The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages#Linking to Wiktionary section appears to be in error. I wanted to have someone else look over my thought before I made the edit.

The page says:

• {{Wiktionary}} – {{wiktionary|WORD|WORD2|...|WORD5}} – up to five optional parameters; useful for linking dictionary entries with multiple capitalizations (star, Star, and STAR).
• {{Wiktionary pipe}} – {{wiktionary pipe|WORD|optional display name}} – without parameters, defaults to using the current page's name.

I believe it should be: (added text bold, deleted text struck out)

• {{Wiktionary}} – {{wiktionary|WORD|WORD2|...|WORD5}} – up to five optional parameters; useful for linking dictionary entries with multiple capitalizations (star, Star, and STAR) – without parameters, defaults to using the current page's name without capitalization.
• {{Wiktionary pipe}} – {{wiktionary pipe|WORD|optional display name}} – without parameters, defaults to using the current page's name.

If I'm understanding this right, I'll make the change, but I wanted to get feedback here first. Thank you. SchreiberBike (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The parameterless default behavior is true of both templates, although given the second template's name you are right that the statement is more applicable for the first. older ≠ wiser 12:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Change made. Thank you. SchreiberBike (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposed expansion on initialisms and acronyms

I've noticed that quite frequently there are disambiguation pages for initialisms or acronyms that content a bunch of links to topics that could be referred to with that abbreviation, but generally are not (i.e. GameStop was, at one point, on the page GS, although there is nothing on the GameStop page that would suggest it being referred to as "GS"). Should we mention something on here about making sure that all acronyms, initialisms, and abbreviations that are linked in the disambiguation page are mentioned on their respective page (for example, the initialism "BSA" appears in the article Boy Scouts of America, and therefore is suitable for inclusion on the disambiguation page BSA)? EW_ikist 21:19, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, MOS:DABMENTION should probably be strengthened to indicate that the other-page mention is needed, not just optional, for dab inclusion, for acronyms and not-acronyms. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:10, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

What do you think of a new sub-topic following "Items appearing within other articles" called "Acronyms, initialisms, and abbreviations?" Something along the lines of this:

Acronyms, initialisms, and abbreviations

Many pages serve primarily to disambiguate short letter combinations that can represent various acronyms and initialisms. When considering articles to include in the list, it is important that each individual entry is referred to its respective abbreviation within its article. For example:

BSA may refer to: (correct) Boy Scouts of America (incorrect) The British Soap Awards

The second entry is incorrect because the article that it refers to, the British Soap Awards, does not mention that it is abbreviated "BSA," and therefore is unlikely to be searched for by that letter combination. The Boy Scouts of America page, however, notes that the organization is abbreviated "BSA," and would thus be a likely candidate for someone searching that initialism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdammers (talk • contribs) 10:21, 25 April 2012‎ (UTC)

I think the correct/incorrect example is a good idea. I'm not sure it needs to be acronym-specific -- the topic needs to be referred to as the ambiguous title in the linked article whether or not it's an acronym. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

good example and explanation Azylber (talk) 13:12, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Template needed

This is a long, formidable "guideline." It should include a simple template for basic diambig. pages. Kdammers (talk) 10:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Jim Carrey/James Carrey example

I was reading WP:DABREDIR and I like the first rule, where you may link to something, even if it were a redirect, if it were worthy of becoming an article of its own in the future. However, why the second rule would be good wasn't immediately obvious. Quoth the manual:

• Linking to a redirect can also be helpful when the redirect contains the disambiguated term and could serve as an alternative name for the target article, meaning an alternative term which is already in the article's lead section. For example:

James Cary may refer to: (correct) James Carrey or Jim Carrey (born 1962), Canadian actor (] or Jim Carrey (born 1962), Canadian actor) (incorrect) James Carrey or Jim Carrey (born 1962), Canadian actor (James Carrey or ] (born 1962), Canadian actor)

• The above example of a redirect is only appropriate because James Carrey is indicated as a name in the lead section of the Jim Carrey article. If it were not, then the second example could have been used instead.

How do we benefit from this rule? What's incorrect about the second example and what's correct about the first example? It seems like it should link directly to Jim Carrey, since that's the name he is known by. James Carrey, maybe would redirect to what I want, if I were lucky, but it's not immediately obvious if Jim Carrey is the primary topic for "James Carrey." Maybe there's another individual more suited for the "James Carrey" article name. So I don't see how the editor or the reader would gain something by being circuitous like that, even if it's slightly so. As the user, if Jim Carrey was linked in a dab page (as in the "incorrect" example), I don't see what the problem would be. Thoughts?

If the benefit of this rule is equally unclear to others, it should be removed. --JBrown23 (talk) 23:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The reader reaching the page is looking for someone named "James" (for whatever reason). If "Jim Carrey" is a possible target for their search, it's easier for the reader to parse the list if it's in a consistent format: link (red or blue), optional alias, description (that includes a blue link if the link is red). How to we lose benefit from this rule? If the benefit of removing it is equally unclear to others, it should be kept. -- 23:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I see. As I stated, I found three issues with the rule:

1. I didn't know what the reasoning was behind the rule
2. The article doesn't explain the reasoning behind the rule
3. I disagree with the rule

You've provided me with your reasoning. Hypothetically, if we were to keep this rule, then we can start the rule with "For the purpose of positioning a link first, ..." Even if we removed this rule, the following style preferences are already set:

• List the colliding term first (the term that needs disambiguation).
• It's preferrable to show the actual article title as the link.
• A link can exist anywhere for each entry (cf. "The Scream" example).

Therefore, one would naturally derive that the current "incorrect" example exemplifies the preferrable style, while the current "correct" example adds an extra level of depth that we could do without. Your sig is broken BTW. --JBrown23 (talk) 00:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

One blue link should suffice

The guideline currently states "A disambiguation page should not be made up completely of red links or have only one blue link on the entire page, because the basic purpose of disambiguation is to refer users to other Misplaced Pages pages." I propose we remove or alter "or have only one blue link on the entire page" from that sentence. If we do have an article covering a term, then we should allow for a means of pointing out to the reader that there exist other separate topics closely linked to that term for which we do not yet have articles. To add to my argument, I would like to point out that finding two blue links sufficient as opposed to one is an arbitrary delimiter. __meco (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages are navigational tools that exist because Misplaced Pages has a technical limitation that prevents multiple articles from occupying the same title. If there is no coverage of a topic on Misplaced Pages, there is no navigation aid to render. The difference between one article (can exist at one title) and two articles (cannot exist at one title) is not arbitrary. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Still, in the interest of developing the project, the limit between one and two seems arbitrary and significantly different from where none exist. __meco (talk) 10:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

But it still isn't. In the interest of developing the project, correct WP:REDLINKs can be added to the article space, and then correct dab entries with the red link and a blue link to the article with the red link should be added. If there's no appropriate article to add the red link to, adding it to the dab page isn't in the interest of the project. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Scattered red links in articles is difficult to collate the way a dab page does. In fact, it's pretty much impossible if the titles of the red links have been disambiguated, i.e. John Paulson (painter). __meco (talk) 12:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Right, which is why the dab page can collate the red links that are scattered in articles. Once the red links are in articles. If you've got a red link you want to add to a dab page, add it to an article and then add it to the dab page with a link to the article. There's no hardship or loss of encyclopedia development. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I have read the opinions of both JHunterJ and meco. If I understand correctly, meco's point is that putting the red link in the dab page encourages people who see it to write the missing article, and JHunterJ's point is that it's ok to add that red link entry, as long as you also add the redlink in an article that would link to the missing article if it existed and then include links to both the missing article and the existing article in the dab page entry. So I don't see a conflict here. Meco: if you want to do what's best for the project, it's ok to add an entry with a red link to a dab page, as long as you also include the same red link in an existing article that would link to the missing one if it existed, and you also link to this existing article in the same dab page entry. Azylber (talk) 12:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Images

The section Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages#Images and templates refers to an image at Congo (disambiguation). There's no longer an image there. Either Congo (disambiguation) needs to be changed back, or we should use a different example here. Any suggestions? SchreiberBike (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I restored the image with a hidden comment regarding it's use as example here. older ≠ wiser 21:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Use of {{USS}} and similar templates on disambiguation pages

The following is copied from Talk:Defiant:

Editor ShelfSkewed recently reverted an edit that used the {{USS}} template to format the link to USS Defiant (YT-804) with this edit summary:
untemplate entry--not useful on dab pages as it "hides" the link from some editing tools

Editor ShelfSkewed, can you please elaborate? The disambiguation MOS specifically alludes to the use of this kind of template to properly format ship names. There is no mention of link "hiding" (not really sure what you mean by that) in the MOS, nor in the template's documentation. Can you elaborate and provide supporting documentation showing how the template isn't useful on disambiguation pages?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:29, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
The templates are a convenience to ensure proper formatting, but they are not obligatory and they should be used subst'ed to create an actual link. The reason for this, as I intended to explain (obviously too briefly; my apologies) in my edit summary, is that entries that remain templated are not accessible to some editing tools used by editors who disambiguate links to dab pages. The tool I use, for example, is Popups. When I encounter an ambiguous link, Popups accesses the dab page and offers me a choice of the links listed there. But the tool can't interpret an entry in a template, so that choice is unavailable. I understand that these templates are quite useful in articles, both for their convenience and to insure a uniform and correct display. But they have the potential to be counterproductive when used unsubst'ed on dab pages, and if someone (in this case, me) is willing to take the time to create a direct link, properly formatted, there is no reason, I think, to insist on the template.--ShelfSkewed Talk 04:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This editor believes that the use of templates, like {{USS}}, in disambiguation pages is allowed and serves a legitimate purpose.

• MOSDAB §Where piping may be appropriate specifically identifies a document (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Ships/Tools) that lists {{USS}} and similar templates that can be used to properly format page links on disambiguation pages.
• MOSDAB §Where piping may be appropriate does not require editors to subst: such templates when they are used on disambiguation pages.
• Shortcut templates like {{USS}} are an aid to editors that make the typing easier, the edit window less cluttered and therefore easier to read, and assure that the resulting format is correctly rendered for readers.
• The limitations of a particular tool or tools (in this case Popups) should not dictate how all other editors conduct the creation and maintenance of disambiguation pages.

I will post I have posted notice of this topic on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ships and Misplaced Pages talk:Disambiguation pages with links.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

If we (at SHIPS) are getting in the way of what gnomes do, then that means we have to do the gnome work ourselves. Are we getting in the way? Can "popups" and other tools be fixed? If not, are SHIPS people willing to take responsibility for doing the work? I don't know. I'll keep an eye on the conversation. - Dank (push to talk) 13:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I also de-template any {{USS}} et al. templates I find on disambiguation pages. The templates are available for properly formatting the links if the editors don't know how to do it themselves. If a gnome comes along later at gets the formatting right without the template (but substing it or otherwise), no problem. I do not mind editors using the templates on dabs, but I don't mind me removing them either. I would not ask any editor to stop using the template to add entries to a dab, but I don't see the need or legitimate use of introducing the template to an untemplated entry that is already properly formatted. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I've inserted a line break between Editor Dank and Editor JHunterJ for readability.

Just for clarity, I was the editor who placed the USS Defiant (YT-804) entry into the Defiant disambiguation page. I used the {{USS}} template.

If I understand you correctly, you are ok with editors using template but if you find templates in a dab you will untemplate the entry. That sounds to me like you really aren't ok with other editors using templates. Have I got this right?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Any editor who wants to add an entry to the dab page can:

• Add it without any formatting. A subsequent editor might later
  • Format it with a ship template. A subsequent editor might then later
    • Replace the ship template with the entry formatted with wiki markup
  • Format it with wiki markup
• Add it with the ship template. A subsequent editor might then
  • Replace the ship template with the entry formatted with wiki markup
• Add it with wiki markup formatting.

I'm really OK with other editors using templates to add entries to dabs, or to format unformatted (or incorrectly formatted) dab entries. Once the entry is properly formatted with wiki markup, however, there's no benefit to replacing it with the ship template. Are you not OK with other editors not using the templates? -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

• WikiProject Disambiguation pages