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Indigenous peoples of North America C‑class

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Writer of WO

Comment

Here's a poorly cited quote + personal comment I removed from the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

More recently, in 2009 issue of the Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover wrote "The Wallum Olum tells of the time before the Great Migration. This is an epic that begins with the Great Spirit creating the Earth, records the succession of families and clans, and recounts significant events such as visions, sicknesses, the Great Flood, the battle between good and evil, and a much earlier migration from the west. It was translated into English more than 200 ago, and although the translation is imperfect and clumsy the story and song is alive in its haunting, poetic beauty." Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover. Mii gwetch, Lenni Lenapi."

Linda Grover has no expertise for such a statement and the IP knows this as he's been involved in this article for a long time. And it is clear OR to add a general comment about Indian literature - sources need to discuss the subject. These are two separate issues and the IP is welcome to take the OR issue to WP:NORN and argue that it isn't original research and Linda Grover to WP:RSN and argue that she's a reliable source. Dougweller (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009. http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf

Dr. Grover is certainly an expert on this topic and more than qualified to make "such a statement" http://www.d.umn.edu/~amind/main/Grover.php

Ah, a different Grover. Hardly a detailed summary though. You seem to think she is better qualified than Oestricher - is that on the basis of the courses she teaches, eg AmIn 3420 American Indians in Sports, AmIn 4640 American Indians in the Movies, American Indian Women, and American Indians and the Media ? Her PhD is in Education. .

I am also curious about why you are saying a 1994 book was published in 2005. And why a mysterious IP suddenly appears to save you from a 3RR warning. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The same Dr. Linda Grover wrote the article that teaches American Indian Studies. Oestreicher is an "independent scholar", meaning he is not employed as a teacher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question about how 1994 became 2005. Yes, Grover teaches American Indian studies - Indians in the media, Indians in sport, etc. She has no relevant qualifications either that I can find. She seems to write some good fiction (I mean real fiction, you know, stories). Oestreicher not being a teacher is irrelevant, he has a number of published articles and is quoted in others and in books, all reliable sources. He's qualified to comment, Grover is not. Dougweller (talk) 14:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Note that using another IP to revert me looks like editwarring and hitting 3RR. Dougweller (talk) 15:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

And for the IPs, the first claim being added to the article is irrelevant: the controversy about the WO isn't whether an appropriate critical interpretation is being used for Native American literature, but whether it's an example of Native American literature at all. The second looks like an end-run around the consensus that the WO is a forgery, and the author doesn't appear to have any authority for declaring it genuine: no background in Algonquian linguistics or literature, document forensics, or the like. As an opinion on the WO's literary value it might be valuable in some contexts, but the source is not a work on NA literature or a statement of the Lenape, but instead a newsletter from a non-Lenape group (the only apparent connection between the two is a distant linguistic one). Ergative rlt (talk) 03:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The IPs have both been blocked for a month as sockpuppets of indefinitely blocked Marburg72. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Marburg72. Dougweller (talk) 06:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa: Emmy Award winning movie on the Ojibwe, which includes the Wallum Olum. Companion Book Thomas Peacock and Marlene Wisuri. This is the story of the Anishinaabe, or Ojibwe people, who have lived on the North American continent for many thousands of years. Beginning in the dim past and continuing to the present, Ojibwe: We Look in All Directions chronicles in text, photography and illustration the saga of a still vibrant and evolving people, still strong in their ways. What is known of Ojibwe origins begins soon after the last ice age, recorded by their Lenape ancestors on bark tablets and song sticks in an epic poem, the Wallum Olum.

http://www.ojibwe.org/

http://www.ojibwe.org/home/about_anish_timeline.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 00:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Continued edits concerning Ojibwe.org

As has already been brought up here and at the relaible sources noticeboard, this is not an acceptable reference for the stated undue claim. Ergative rlt (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Morons of Misplaced Pages, read the sources provided "Pre-Contact-1500 BC - The epic story of the west to east migration of the Lenni Lanape, ancient ancestors of the Anishinabe people, begins and is recorded as the Wallum Olum (an ancient written record on bark tablets and song sticks). It is the oldest written record of people in North America and dates back to before 1600 B.C." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.120.26 (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks aren't going to help you convince anyone, especially those of use familiar with Delaware oral history, that this hoax is anything other than a hoax. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Ojibwe is different than Delaware, range block this you morons — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.120.28 (talk) 22:06, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Guthrie on the Wallum Olum in NEARA Journal v38-1, 1994: "Some scholars think the  Walam Olum actually existed and that the glyphs are authentic. In recent years, however, David M. Oestreichester has argued - mainly on linguistic grounds - that both the signs and the song were contrived by Rafinesque as part of a scheme to pad his fame by winning the Prix Volney of 1200 francs, offered by the Royal Institute of France in 1834.  He (Oestreicher) thinks Rafinesque modified authentic pictographs to create an imaginary story, and demonstrates that whoever "deciphered" the Lenape song had a mediocre grasp of the Delaware language and probably worked from dictionaries, concluding that Rafinesque "translated" from English to Delaware to create a hoax.  I have doubts about Oestreicher's claims.  Several illustrated oral histories are known, and there is no actual evidence that Rafinesque invented the story or glyphs. He (Rafinesque) was eccentric and vain, but had already made his mark with legitimate, if sloppy, scholarship in several fields.  Oestreicher's smug exposé reads too much like other "just-so" stories developed to explain away American "writing" at the expense of the messenger.  Still, what became of the sticks? Is the word Olum connected to Ollamh, the highest class of Irish bards, who related oral history from a bundle of inscribed boards? Or did Rafinesque cleverly invent the word to lend credence to his hoax? The whole case is intriguing.

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