Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:44, 15 August 2012

How is it that the BNP page can have links to their youtube and facebook pages, yet when I copy the self same format for this page I am told that it's not permissible? Can somebody please explain?Greenpenwriter (talk) 12:12, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

British Freedom Party is a centrist party

There is no newspaper article, or any other credible source claiming that British Freedom Party is a far-right party. The party's chairman, Paul Weston, claims that BFP is a centrist party. Its political platform indicates that it is centrist party. Its criticism of racism also indicates that it is a centrist party. Some of its members came from the racist BNP, but they rejected the BNP's racist politics. (Lee John Barnes is a BFP member and has anti-Semitic views, but, to the best of my knowledge, other BFP members are not anti-Semitic.)Quinacrine (talk) 01:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The Independent appears to be a much more credible source than a cherry-picked interview on YouTube. ZZArch  03:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely. Incidentally, "to the best of my knowledge, other BFP members are not anti-Semitic" is Original Research, so invalid. Emeraude (talk) 18:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Meh. The label "far right" is nothing but a smear anyway - nothing, that is, except a form of well poisoning that allows the user to deny "notability" to anyone they apply it to. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 16:24, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

No, it is a classification, similar to the terms "conservative", "socialist" and "liberal" used to describe the main UK parties. Can you provide a more generally accepted term used to describe the BNP and BFP? TFD (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Fascist would of course be considerably more accurate, but somehow I don't suspect that's the direction in which Quinacrine is leaning. 99.248.211.6 (talk) 17:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Hang on a second. It seems that many contibs on this talk page are using their personal opinions and emotions to categorise the "British Freedom" Party. I have just read both Far Right and Far Left entries for wikipedia and I can clearly see from those definitions that far right refers to the support for a social heirarchy that advocates superiority and inferiority as social statuses. IE inequality. As far as I can see the British Freedom party could hardly be far right as they are aiming at winning votes from those who would consider themselves working class as well as maybe those who would consider themselves lower middle class. And to state that a "credible source" should classify a political party is ludicrous as bias would be involved. Misplaced Pages deals with facts not opinions and as the BFP has a manifesto and policies, then the information you find there should be enough to dictate their classification. And if you class them as fascist because they criticise Islam then you're wrong on that point too. For an organisation to criticise a 7th century ideology for their barbaric practices and attitudes is a breath of fresh air compared to the lies disseminated by the other parties and their PC police. It's just the exercise of free speech. And to deny free speech would indeed be fascist. So get a grip and remove all references to far right and replace it with centrist as the party describes themselves. If you want to put far right then you have to prove your accusation according to the definition of far right already accepted on wikipedia or you are just using political bias to libel an organisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 12:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunatley for your argument, Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source! So using one Misplaced Pages article as evidence in another is totally inappropriate, especially as the article on Far Right is itself contentious. The standard for Misplaced Pages is what reliable sources say, and in the case of BFP they say what the article says. The least reliable source would be the party itself, since it is clearly biased in what it says about itself. Secondly, one cannot judge a party's political position by who it aims to get votes from. It takes the briefest of reflection to realise that any party that wants to be elected has to solicit votes from the whole of the social spectrum, or it will never be elected. Remember that Hitler and Mussolini both aimed at the working class and lower middle classes for votes - if they hadn't they would have excluded the vast majority of the population! Emeraude (talk) 08:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Emeraudel, you said a whole lot but really said nothing at all. If the Misplaced Pages article on Far Right is not accepted as a reliable article then why don't you contest it?

Surely if an uncontested Misplaced Pages article is classed as an unreliable source; an openly editable source that can be contested by anyone; then how can an uneditable source like say the BBC (who most definitely have a bias) or the Guardian which again is incredibly biased be classed as a reliable source?

I use these examples because you haven't actually mentioned who you regard as a reliable source. So in a way I guess logic dictates that by the fact Misplaced Pages is openly contest-able it might just be the most reliable source. This article by the fact it is being contested is plausible proof that Misplaced Pages is reasonably reliable. You can't just say its an unreliable source because it contains an uncontested article on the term Right Wing that you don't agree with.

I suggest either explaining in the article why the British Freedom party is far right stating facts backed up by reliable reference from a truly reliable source stating why they are reliable and quoting their reliable credentials and political affiliation for comparison purposes or removing the description far right from the article. The author labelling the British Freedom Party far right is clearly only their opinion and has no basis in fact if it can't be backed up by a reliable source. You can't get away with using Far Right to slur an organisation because you don't agree with their views. That would be ridiculous as from this you are implying that your opinion is in some way factual, which only has the function of swaying opinion which is not encyclopedic.

Further more you cannot imply that a political party is far right just because it openly criticises a supremacist ideology. Could a political party be considered far right if it openly criticised National Socialism or Fascism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 06:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I left you links to Misplaced Pages policy on your talk page. All articles are supposed to adhere to these policies and if you disagree with them then you should ask for changes. The sources that they are far-right include The Independent and the Toronto Sun. The political viewpoint of these papers is irrelevant, although the Sun happens to be right-wing. TFD (talk) 06:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Free Englishman does not seem to understand what is meant by a reliable source in Misplaced Pages. A clear guide is avaialble at Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. The reason that Misplaced Pages should not be used as a source is here. The main issue though, is that Free Englishmen's opinions of BFP's political position are not worth a damn - and neither are mine. The sources are what we go by and The Four Deuces has helpfully itemised them. Emeraude (talk) 08:14, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok I have read the reliable source information in Misplaced Pages and it states the following "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." Well they are clearly not demonstrable to me and to others here so I say again. Please clearly demonstrate how a number of biased journalists could be classed as reliable sources. Are they authoritative on the term far right and are they authoritative on the BFP and their policies? And for that matter can the author of this Misplaced Pages article claim they are scholastically qualified in politics and political definitions and did they do any research to qualify the claims the Toronto Sun and The Independent made? Remember, the sources stated are newspapers. That doesn't mean the opinions of their journalists are in any way credible or factual. Journalists throughout the ages have used their power to sway public opinion by stretching the truth or re-writing history.

So back to this article. To state that a political party is Far Right the way it is stated in this Misplaced Pages article is to imply it is a fact rather than an opinion. That may negatively sway the reader's opinion and deny the BFP an open-minded forum. If for example someone who would agree with the BFP's policies found this article here first and decided not to support the BFP due to reading here that the BFP are far right it may sway their opinion and as a consequence do that individual a disservice. To quote Evelyn Beatrice Hall from her biography on Voltaire "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". So the way the far right statement is made in this article needs to be addressed and made clearer to the reader that it is based on opinions and does not necessarily reflect the policies of the BFP. Encyclopaedias deal with actual proven facts and should never express the opinion of someone who has no authority on the subject as if it was a fact which is what unfortunately has been done here by openly accepting the opinions of a few journalists who are obviously trying to sensationalise their articles to sway public opinion. If we for example managed to get a journalist to say the BFP is far left would you change the article to state they are far left? I would accept the term Far right if you could demonstrate it by citing policies of the BFP that overly conform to Encyclopaedia Britannica's description of Right wing Encyclopaedia Britannica - Right. Now that's a pretty credible source to define Far Right. I have an article here on the abuse of the term Far Right. Far Right Fallacy again it is just a blog post but it makes some interesting points and might help to re-calibrate the author's FarRight-O-Meter. Either way in this article Far Right is based on an opinion by the sources with no evidence to back it up so it should be written to reflect that and not in the sensationalist way it is written at the moment. Sorry to go on. And I mean no offence to the authors. I just want to see actual facts not opinion pieces. That's all any of us want in Misplaced Pages isn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 11:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide any sources, other than the BFF itself, that describe it differently? In time, academic articles and books will be available and we can use them. However, considering that the party is a splinter of a far right party and lead by a former member of that party, it probably belongs to the same party family. TFD (talk) 14:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I've said this several times. The articles you refer to are offering an opinion of the BFP as Far Right but the way it reads in this article is as if it's a fact. This Needs to be changed to clearly show that it is an opinion not a proven fact. Also you are incorrect. Just because it has a few BNP ex members doesn't mean it's policies or general stance is identical or even similar to the BNP. And it's leader is ex UKIP and not ex BNP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 06:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Lee Barnes

Lee Barnes left the party some considerable time ago and vanished into obscurity. He was a good speaker but the wrong man in the wrong place. It appears that he is a difficult man to get along with. There are no anti Semitic members in the party that I am aware of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenpenwriter (talk • contribs) 20:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC) Greenpenwriter (talk) 20:51, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Synthasis

There seems to be quite a bit of saying things that are not n the soources, but are infernaces drawn by edds here from those sources. Can we actualy have some sources that actualy back uop the text?Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Far right

The source says the EDL are far right, its does not say this about the BFP. Lets see a source (RS) that refers to them as far right.Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

OK we have one source for this now.Slatersteven (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

You were quite right. I'd "speed read" the Independent article and I had taken it as the BFP being far right, which is not what it actually says, though it is a fair inference to make. Well done on finding the alternative source. Emeraude (talk) 10:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The source claims the party is "far right" while the party self-identifies as centrist. Who is given priority here? The party themselves (my choice) or a politically correct mainstream newspaper which has a vested interest in presenting the party as "far right" and thereby ensuring that everyone will infer that the party is racist and therefore beyond the pale. The Wiki article as it stands does not address this matter and therefore can only be seen as biased. Please note, I will not make any changes to the actual page. I'll just post my comment hear and hope it provokes a discussion and possible changes by those more qualified to make the changes than I. Posted 11:06 GMT 22 March 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.125.39.3 (talk) 11:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages always goes with what can be verified from reliable sources, not what is said by the subjects. They clearly have vested interests! So, for example, if the jury, the judge and every newspaper reports that someone is a murderer, he is a murderer, however much he may plead not guilty. In this case, we have reliable sources that state that the BFP is far right. But a moment's thought will easily confirm this: do we seriously believe that a splinter group from the fascist and racist BNP is going to be centrist?? Emeraude (talk) 11:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The British Freedom party is indeed centre right. (I, as an early party member, should know!) The party has never had a racist or fascist agenda. The leadership was seen as tainted by association with the BNP, and has since stood down in favour of others untainted by past associations.Greenpenwriter (talk) 09:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

We need RS.Slatersteven (talk) 12:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

This makes as much sense as saying the BNP is not fascist because its founding leadership was tainted by their past history running around with guns in Nazi uniforms; they did and they deny it makes a difference. Let's see some RS on the BFP being centrist, but I won't hold my breath. Emeraude (talk) 13:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, association with the BNP doesn't make a party "far-right" or indeed right at all. The BNP has hard left wing policies about big government and nationalisation, and is either isolationist or pacifist wrt to war on terror/Afghanistan, simply adding racism to the mix doesn't make them right wing. Fundamentally, it's a party for disillusioned working class Labour supporters who resent immigrants taking their unskilled jobs/social housing: right wing conservatives wouldn't touch the BNP with a barge pole! Even if the BNP were "far right" (which I have already stated is not the case) then any breakaway party needs to be considered in its own right (through a reputable source's analysis of their policies: not former associations). For example, the Liberal Democrats are associated with the former SDP, which broke away from the Labour Party: does this mean that the Lib Dems should forever be branded socialists rather than centrist? 78.150.111.109 (talk) 09:26, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

What makes a party "far right" is that that is how it has been categorized by reliable secondary sources. We cannot weigh the evidence and form our own conclusion. TFD (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I missed the reference to the sources that define British Freedom as far right and why they are classed as reliable. Which well respected centrist professor of politics described them as far right? Because I for one would not call a semi-socialist BBC journalist or Guardian hack a reliable source of political definition. Now instead of placing the term Far Right in there as fact you could maybe get away with providing your source like this. "The Guardian (or whomever) have described them as Far Right however they describe themselves as Centrist". That would show facts and have bias balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 06:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Which far-right party has ever described themselves as such? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that the term Far Right be removed from this article as should the references to other far right organisations used here to somehow show alegiance until someone comes up with an approved traditional unbiased definition of Far Right from a professor of politics together with some evidence to prove the BFP's policies or 20 point plan match with that approved definition of far right. Upon doing the research I think you will find that the correct term here should be Center Right. If the only reference to Far Right you can find is the opinion of a bunch of left wing biased journalists then that is clearly an opinion with no basis in fact. It's presented here as fact rather than opinion and clearly used in this case to slander this organisation. So do the honest thing and clean up this article so it only contains facts and not opinions presented as facts. Just because someone has diametrically opposed ideas to you that you can't prove wrong doesn't give you the right to use slurs to sabotage opinions of them. Far right describes organised genocidal maniacs like the nazis and not the BFP. That's just dishonest and typically left. Hamas could be described as far right and it's groups like Hamas that the BFP are trying to stop getting a foothold in Britain. That makes them more British NeoCon rather than Far Right. And Far left is just as destructive as Far Right. Tianamen Square anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Englishman (talk • contribs) 00:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

"opinion of a bunch of left wing biased journalists" followed by "Just because someone has diametrically opposed ideas to you that you can't prove wrong doesn't give you the right to use slurs to sabotage opinions of them", my irony detector just exploded. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 07:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't understand your irony point. It's common knowledge that The Independant has a left wing bias. Nothing wrong with that as left wing just implies they are a little bit socialist. Far Right on the other hand is usually used as a slur. Especially when grouping it with a truly socially exclusive party like the BNP. There is no racist or exclusive connotone to the BFP policies. Unlike the definitely Far Right BNP who's leadership (not necessarily all of their members) are on the whole pretty racist and Nick Griffin is a holocaust denier. From reading the BFP's policies I would say they would make a lot of sense to the majority of us Brits who are fed up to the back teeth of the failed socialist experiment we have had to endure since New Labour had their lengthy stint in power. The only slightly controversial policy is to halt immigration for 5 years. Well we are a tiny island state who struggle to support it's pensioners and unemployed already. Asylum seekers are supposed to settle in the first state they reach which is not Britain so I don't see the problem here. If you think the BFP are far right then I guess you would have to classify me and probably 90% of Brits (of all shades and religions) Far right too. I suggest you remove Far Right and put in more about the policies themselves. Let people make up their own mind about what classification to give them. From my studies I believe that The left/right divide is subjective anyway. We all consider ourselves centrist. So anyone who's ideals are a little lefter than ours or righter than ours would be far left or far right to any one of us. The BFP are far left compared to the BNP for example and the BNP are far left compared to the National Socialist Workers Party of WW2 Germany so the term Far Right really has no descriptive merit which ever way you look at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.3.103.109 (talk) 14:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

We want our freedome

The source for th efreedom democrats breakaway is a blog. I am not sure its RS and thus at this time its an iffy inclusion.Slatersteven (talk) 13:37, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Not really. The Electoral Commission ref shows it exists and who's involved. The blog is good enough as far as it goes and so long as it's marked with the "unreliable source?" tag its iffiness as a reliable source is duly noted. A better source is needed, you're right, but for now I think this will suffice so long as there's no expansion. Emeraude (talk) 20:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

See this Misplaced Pages:Reliable_source_examples#Are_web_forums_and_blog_talkbacks_reliable_sources.3F --88.104.30.20 (talk) 02:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

submission of party accounts

submission of party accounts are early and not due until the end of the financial year which happens to be on April 30th. Quote from party treasurer: 45 Delivery of statements of accounts etc. to Commission. (1)The treasurer of a registered party shall, if the party’s accounts for a financial year are not required to be audited by virtue of section 43(1) or (2), within of the end of that financial year deliver to the Commission— Year end 31st December plus 4 months = 30th April.Greenpenwriter (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC) Another word or two from the party treasurer: His words, not mine. "Just spoke with the electoral commission. They have CONFIRMED that they HAVE received our 2011 Accounts. The reason they are not showing on their website is because the deadline for ALL party's to submit their accounts is 30th APRIL. Therefore no party in the UK will have its accounts published until AFTER the deadline of 30th April. Therefore the wiki page is wholly inaccurate and a barefaced lie."Greenpenwriter (talk) 20:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Can this be checked?Slatersteven (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, if you contact the electoral commission!Greenpenwriter (talk) 05:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I shall re-phrase this, can we have some RS for that?Slatersteven (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

If you check with the electoral commission some time after the deadline of 30th April, you will find your answer. I have personally seen the submitted accounts but you will just have to take my word for that. although my word is original research.Greenpenwriter (talk) 17:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Exaclty its OPR, so is inadmisable under oour rules.Slatersteven (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

In which case you will have to wait until after April 30th to find your answer.Greenpenwriter (talk) 19:47, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Quote: "Therefore no party in the UK will have its accounts published until AFTER the deadline of 30th April." This is untrue. The Electoral Commission's Statement of Accounts includes several parties which have filed accounts and which the EC has aleady published. Most parties are not yet published, it's true, but is not right to say that none will be published until after 30 April. Emeraude (talk) 09:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

It is not the place of a wikipedia editor to DEMAND any organisation produce accounts or anything else or at a specific time or make any other demands, to much POV already associated with this article not least some unreliable blogs. Note the accounts will be Original research until published by a reliable Secondary source.--88.104.30.20 (talk) 02:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Far right, again

I suggest the IP editor reads this talk page. "Far right" is not "unreliable sourced material" nor "pov article from an unreliable source". It is sourced by the Toronto Sun and the Independent, both of which are reliable sources. Bizarrely, the IPs preferred term of "right wing" isn't sourced at all! In addition I see no reason for the highly POV terminology of the 20 point plan to be quoted verbatim, when a neutral paraphrase conveys their intent just as well. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 06:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)