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Issues

• Is there a single reliable source that calls this the "Zion square lynching"? The closest I've seen is that is was described as an "attempted lynch".
• Seems like a good part of this article is based one two blogs, one from the New Yorker (strangely without a link) and one from the NYT, both unattributed. Other op-eds are used as well, again unattributed.
• The bit that starts with "Ma'ariv reported" actually comes from the Times of Israel and should be attributed properly, per WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT.
• There's probably more, but I don't have the time right now. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:21, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I moved it to Zion Square assault. There are some good references calling it a lynching in the headline, but not all of them do. it is a rather loose and sensationalist use of the word. Attempted lynching is the closest to a description, and is what it would be in US law. But I think we have very seriously tried to avoid the term in titles.

What I would really like to do is consider a redirect and partial merge to the paragraph on Israel in Lynching, which already has a ref to the NYT article. If nobody objects here, I will do the redirect, nad people can add the appropriate contents later. There are more such incidents that could be added. The article already covers attempted lynchnings, so it's within scope. DGG ( talk ) 01:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Look at the Hebrew press it is the default term used.

Lynching is a calque here, just as it is in Japanese, for any episode of attempted mass violence based on ethnic enmity,and this usage borrows from the primary sense of lynch in English which was used to denote acts as varied as tar-feathering and whipping.

The word 'lynch' is used by the investigating police in Jerusalem to describe the incident to the press. Many sources give 'lynch', others 'attempted lynch' (apparently 'lynch' is a successful murder attempt), so I'm fine with "Lynch attempt in Zion Square' (2012). I've only begun the article, so I'll add many more sources today.

The suggestion is that we can have 2000 Ramallah lynching dealing with Israelis on the West Bank, but not '(Attempted) Lynching in Zion Square' when Palestinians were the object of mob violence. I'm all for consistency: I do not believe it coherent POV-wise to keep the Ramallah article title, which apparently used the wording of the local Hebrew press, but hold to ransom the same local press default nomenclature for the title of an article regarding an attempt on the life of Palestinians in West Jerusalem.

As for Ma'ariv. Needless nit-picking. The Ma'ariv notice is referred to in the footnote, where I specify self-evidently where that came from.Nishidani (talk) 06:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

So you admit that you created this article to make a point, and that your idea of NPOV is that if there's an article with the word "lynch" in the title where the victims are Israeli, we must have an article with "lynch" in the title where the victims are Arabs? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Could you give some evidence from what I have written here for that illation? As for creating articles 'to make a point', look around. That is basically what underlies most of User:Activism's work here, on the face of it. Nishidani (talk) 09:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I see you are referring to the Ramallah analogy. Actually I noted the Ramallah article, which I've long been familiar with, only after reflecting on DGG's change of title this morning. In plain man's terms, I wrote an article which followed Israeli press reports which everywhere write of a lynch in Zion Place (anyone can check this in 10 seconds). I use that language because it is Israeli usage. It is challenged as not proper to wikipedia. I think of the analogy with the Ramallah article, and, genius!, you suggest I wrote the article in order to make a point about the Ramallah article. Where did you study logic? Nishidani (talk) 09:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The Israeli press does not "everywhere write of a lynch in Zion Place". Only Ynet uses the term lynch with no qualifications. Indeed anyone can check that in 10 seconds.

And you were the one who brought up the Ramallah lynch (as if it is comparable to what happened in Jerusalem), so what do you want exactly? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

You just removed 'beaten almost to death'. I'm not halfway through the sources I downloaded but that phrasing is easily verified. Please see Lahav Harkov, 'Rivlin to Arab J'lem 'lynching' victim: We're sorry,' at Jerusalem Post, 23 August, 2012:'Eight teenagers were arrested this week for beating Julani almost to death just after midnight in Zion Square last Thursday.' I'll put that source in now, and would appreciate if you accepted its reversion to the original language.Nishidani (talk) 16:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If you show me that most sources use "beaten almost to death" rather than "beaten unconscious", I won't object to restoring that language. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The Israeli press does not "everywhere write of a lynch in Zion Place".

Of course. The Israeli press everywhere writes of a 'lynch' that took place in 'Zion Square'. So, what's the problem? Nishidani (talk) 16:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

No, the Israeli press mostly does not use "lynch" unqualified. I'm sure you know this and anyone can check the sources, so what are you going on about? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Who said the Israeli press used 'lynch' unqualified? Nishidani (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

So why do you want to use "lynch" unqualified? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

When did I say that I wanted to use "lynch" unqualified? I gave the reasons why I adopted the title I gave the article: because 'lynch' was the default term used by politicians, journalists of all descriptions, and police to describe what happened. Nishidani (talk) 17:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, let me rephrase. Why did you use "lynch" unqualified? It certainly is not the "default term used" and any quick review of the sources in the article shows. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It's only a small courtesy but please run your eyes over the titles of the smattering of sources in the ref.section. I have downloaded over 40 sources, and the word is recurrent in most of them. Sometimes it's qualified, mostly it is not. There's not need for a psychiatric diagnosis of 'why' I used "lynch" unqualified. It's all over the sources thus, and I haven't even troubled to use the Hebrew sources yet, which are far more interesting.Nishidani (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I have, but let's go over them just so there's no confusion.

• Harkov, JPost, 'lynch' in quote marks in the headline, doesn't appear in the article.
• Kershner, NYT, "described as an attempted lynching"
• Mackey, NYT blog, 'a lynch' in quotes in the headline, reports other people describing it as a lynch in quotes in the article.
• Kalman, Times of Israel, "lynch" in double quotes once in the body of the article.
• Davidson, New Yorker blog, "lynch" in double quotes. (Here's a link to the article)
• Weiss, Irish Times, "attempted lynch"
• Mozgovoya, Haaretz, can't see the article. This is the correct link.
• Oppenheimer, YNet op-ed, calls it a lynch in the headline, attempted lynch in the body
• Harkov et al, JPost, (Correct link), 'lynch' in quotes in the headline, doesn't appear in the body.
• Lis, Haaretz, can't see the article, 'lynch' in quotes in the headline.
• Rosenbeg, Haaretz, can't see the article, "attempt to lynch" in the headline, "referred to as a 'lynching'" in the first paragraph.

That's the first column of the current reflist. I think I've proven my point. "Sometimes it's qualified, mostly it is not" is simply incorrect. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:52, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. It's late here, and I'll look at this tomorrow. I surmise you think that lynch in quote marks consistently in headlines over a broad range of newspapers does not provide a legitimate ground for writing 'Zion square 'lynch',' or some variant thereof, as the article name. Why this should be so is obscure to me. If you look at Bat Ayin ax attack, only one source appears to refer to it in that way, and, ironically, that is the Palestinian news agency, Ma'an. Actually, the article does require the Hebrew source expressions customarily used to describe the event, and I welcome editors to add it or them to the lead. Nishidani (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't read very closely, but most of those don't even have "lynch" in quote marks in the headline. The fact it's in quotes is a good indication the newspaper isn't comfortable using the term as its own and wants the reader to understand its using someone else's words. And that's the headline, which is not necessarily written by the journalist who wrote the rest of the article. Not a single one of those sources uses "lynch" unqualified, except for the YNet op-ed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the main difference between the the title of Bat Ayin ax attack and your proposed title for this article is that the former is correct in normal English usage (ie, someone carried out an attack with an ax in Bat Ayin) while the latter is not (open a dictionary, "lynch" means murder. Your assertions about Japanese usage notwithstanding). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Nishidani, I'm highly offended by your accusation at me, which is complete bull. Accusing me without even having me here on the talk page to defend myself... I thought we finished with the whole debate on how most of my articles aren't even related to I-P... You could say the same thing about any number of other editors, which I know of plenty off the top of my head... --Activism1234 00:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming Activism considers satire of his work to be an "accusation" of some kind, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 08:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Um, . . where's my accusation at you? This talk page has taken on the paradoxical quality of being increasingly fascinating as it is tedious in its barrel scraping for non-policy-based objections to, well, anything, and personal innuendoes. I can understandf NMMGG who just remarked on another page that he has a personal vocation on wikipedia to keep bad people like myself 'honest', but your remark here is cut out of imaginary cloth, much as NMMGG's extraordinary pettifogging about the use of lynch.Nishidani (talk) 07:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Luckily, I'm not the only editor who objected to your use of "lynch". Let me guess. DGG and I are on some kind of mailing list? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

DGG has made a considered and nuanced practice and policy-based set of objections. He did not cast about for any stick to throw at something he dislikes, as is apparently the case with your objections.

(a)There are some good references calling it a lynching in the headline, but not all of them do. (b)it is a rather loose and sensationalist use of the word. (c) Attempted lynching is the closest to a description, and is what it would be in US law. But I think we have very seriously tried to avoid the term in titles.

(a) concedes that my provisory title had good references behind it.

(b) argues however that it is a ' rather loose and and sensationalist use of the word', My reply would be that, as at Gaza War, many long objected to the Arabic terms as a 'loose and sensationalist' use of the word massacre, but sources consistently used it, and it had to be adopted because we go by sources.

(c) In US law it would be 'attempted lynching'. Some sources actually do use that combination, and I have no objection to a solution of this kind. I do object to the idea that it cannot be in the title

(d) on the basis that 'we (on wikipedia) seriously try to avoid the term in titles'. In the I/P area I gave the instance of 2000 Ramallah lynching. Most English users associate lynching with a killing by mob violence of an innocent member of a minority community, almost invariably by hanging. I have no objection to the use of Ramallah lynching because the word there reflects usage in the Hebrew sources, though instinctively I would have described it as a slaughter (or massacre, though the former is more precise because massacre implies several) or butchery, which is what it was.

I can argue with reasoned objections, but answering someone whose rapid-fire challenges resembles those of a machine that scrambles excuses for eliding on any grounds something disliked is rather pointless, NMMGG. Nishidani (talk) 08:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The public debate in Israel section

This section is full of mostly un-notable people, all saying pretty much the same stuff. So I'm not sure why it's called a "debate", nor why all these people are quoted, other than the usual coatracking we've come to expect from some editors. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The template used in most of these recent articles organizes the page around an incident which is then followed by International reactions, Israel, the US, etc.etc., consisting of off-the-shelf customary sound-bites by the usual line-up of heads of states or politicians. Before I edited Price tag policy (look at the history), most of the page and the sources added were all to do with declarations by every imaginable politician or rabbi or member of the commentariat expressing condemnation (at one incident). These lists are read, I suspect, by no one. In the present case, since one of the main points of agreement by politicians was that we have an educational issue, the press interviewed many local academics whose professional life as teachers keeps them in touch with that area. Again, my practice is to refer to the article what sources choose to highlight or quote, without fear or favour. I don't think it is our job to make judgements about the 'notability' of people who, in mainstream sources, are interviewed because the local Israeli press considers their views noteworthy, and broadcasts them to the public. What they say is certainly more reflective than the standard brand name utterance we usually get (certainly not here in Rivkin's exemplary words) all over the world from politicians. Jürgen Habermas recently spoke in Israel on this issue, of which he is an authority: civic discourse underlies democracy and can't survive if it is supplanted in the public sphere by the inauthentic jargon of pollies and their spin-meisters.Nishidani (talk) 08:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

And, by the way, when someone reverts on a hypothetical objection (might be a copyright violation) a whole section of a page rather than civilly adopting a readily available alternative, i.e. collaborating in rewriting the section so its language is sufficiently distanced from the source to avoid that possibility, in the I/P area it usually flags 1R gamesmanship strategies. It induces the original author to restore it, and then other editors step in to rerevert, and make editing the page impossible. I hope this is not the case here, since I have quite a lot of work still to do. Nishidani (talk) 08:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Jesse Benjamin

I am adding Jessie Benjamin, 'A Lynching in Jerusalem: Anatomy of Jewish racism,’ at Mondoweiss, August 21, 2012. From experience I know people might challenge this as not RS, which however (see that guideline) is certainly is for Benjamin's views. He is participating, as a sociologist, in an American Jewish community reflection, he had academic standing as a sociologist with a career interest in and publications on these issues, and, as a yeshiva drop-out from Jerusalem, (like two of the suspected perpetrators), with an in-depth personal knowledge of the youth culture at Zion square over the decades, considerable insight. His piece reflects information in the Hebrew press which, so far, I have refrained (this is the English wikipedia) from using, but I will not use anything in his reportage that has to do with facts (which would violate RS guidelines, since Mondoweiss is problematical as a source for facts reportedly bearing on the unfolding of the event). My synthesis of his approach and conclusions clarifies that these are his personal, if sociologically informed, views as a member of the community debating the event.Nishidani (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)