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| :::Not really. Persian was the court and official language as many historians are known to say. So far Turkic was only interchangeably used by Nader when needed be, but this isn't officially regulated or sanctioned by his government. Nader Shah didn't go around sanctioning his native language as the official national/court language. He may have used it from time to time, but that's about it. The only language that was ever truly sanctioned as official/court languages, through all these centuries of Turkic-ruled dynasties, was the Persian language. Which is why these dynasties are all described by various historians as "Persianate" dynasties, i.e. dynasties based on the Persian language/culture/identity, thanks to assimilation with the natives. Again, you can say Turkic was used, and maybe it was for different reasons. But its use is clearly not as overwhelming as you ought to think. These people were acculturated to their nation's native identities first, and looked to their origins second. Shahrokh's likelihood of linguistic choice cannot be predicted from thin air. If we base logic on other resources, we'd assume the same thing for him as we did for previous Turkic dynasties in Iran: almost all were heavily Persianized/Persian-speaking. See you some other time.] (]) 11:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | :::Not really. Persian was the court and official language as many historians are known to say. So far Turkic was only interchangeably used by Nader when needed be, but this isn't officially regulated or sanctioned by his government. Nader Shah didn't go around sanctioning his native language as the official national/court language. He may have used it from time to time, but that's about it. The only language that was ever truly sanctioned as official/court languages, through all these centuries of Turkic-ruled dynasties, was the Persian language. Which is why these dynasties are all described by various historians as "Persianate" dynasties, i.e. dynasties based on the Persian language/culture/identity, thanks to assimilation with the natives. Again, you can say Turkic was used, and maybe it was for different reasons. But its use is clearly not as overwhelming as you ought to think. These people were acculturated to their nation's native identities first, and looked to their origins second. Shahrokh's likelihood of linguistic choice cannot be predicted from thin air. If we base logic on other resources, we'd assume the same thing for him as we did for previous Turkic dynasties in Iran: almost all were heavily Persianized/Persian-speaking. See you some other time.] (]) 11:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Except Nader specifically played up his Turkic roots. As Professor Ernest Tucker writes in ''Encyclopaedia Iranica'': "Nāder departed substantially from Safavid precedent by ... promoting the common Turkmen descent of the contemporary Muslim rulers as a basis for international relations...Nāder’s focus on common Turkmen descent likewise was designed to establish a broad political framework that could tie him, more closely than his Safavid predecessors, to both Ottomans and Mughals. When describing Nāder’s coronation, Astarābādi called the assembly on the Moḡān steppe a quriltāy, evoking the practice of Mughal and Timurid conclaves that periodically met to select new khans. In various official documents, Nāder recalled how he, Ottomans, Uzbeks, and Mughals shared a common Turkmen heritage. This concept for him resembled, in broad terms, the origin myths of 15th century Anatolian Turkmen dynasties. However, since he also addressed the Mughal emperor as a 'Turkmen' ruler, Nāder implicitly extended the word 'Turkmen' to refer, not only to progeny of the twenty-four Ḡozz tribes, but to Timur’s descendants as well." Shahrokh was named after ]. The name was specifically chosen to emphasise Nader's links with the Turco-Mongolian tradition. --] (]) 11:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | ::::Except Nader specifically played up his Turkic roots. As Professor Ernest Tucker writes in ''Encyclopaedia Iranica'': "Nāder departed substantially from Safavid precedent by ... promoting the common Turkmen descent of the contemporary Muslim rulers as a basis for international relations...Nāder’s focus on common Turkmen descent likewise was designed to establish a broad political framework that could tie him, more closely than his Safavid predecessors, to both Ottomans and Mughals. When describing Nāder’s coronation, Astarābādi called the assembly on the Moḡān steppe a quriltāy, evoking the practice of Mughal and Timurid conclaves that periodically met to select new khans. In various official documents, Nāder recalled how he, Ottomans, Uzbeks, and Mughals shared a common Turkmen heritage. This concept for him resembled, in broad terms, the origin myths of 15th century Anatolian Turkmen dynasties. However, since he also addressed the Mughal emperor as a 'Turkmen' ruler, Nāder implicitly extended the word 'Turkmen' to refer, not only to progeny of the twenty-four Ḡozz tribes, but to Timur’s descendants as well." Shahrokh was named after ]. The name was specifically chosen to emphasise Nader's links with the Turco-Mongolian tradition. --] (]) 11:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | ||
| :::::'''IF''' we are to accept this, "Homa Katouzian, "Iranian history and politics", pg 128, and the corresponding sentences, "''Indeed, since the formation of the Ghaznavids state in the tenth century until the fall of Qajars at the beginning of the twentieth century, most parts of the Iranian cultural regions were ruled by '''Turkic-speaking dynasties''' most of the time. At the same time, the official language was Persian, the court literature was in Persian, and most of the chancellors, ministers, and mandarins were Persian speakers of the highest learning and ability''", as a ], then any dynasty that is sourced by this reference therefore must also be "'''Turkic-speaking'''" else the source does not apply! We can not "cherry pick" what we want from a source simply to promote one aspect. --] 16:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
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Afshrid dynasty
- This site needs many improvements if possible can someone please add information and pictures... I have done my best to improve on this.Pedram 4:01 PM ET, June 6, 2005
origin
While the "Afshars" as a people belong to the Oghuz Turkic tribes, (as far as I am informed), Nadir Shah was not of Turkic origin. He was a native Persian of Khorasan. He and his mother were captured as prisoners and slaves by the invading Uzbek Khans when Nadir was stiull a child. Some time later, he managed to escape while his mother was killed by the Uzbeks. As a young boy, he found refuge in an Afshar settlement in Khorasan. He was adopted by the chief of the tribe and thus called himself "Nadir-e Afshar". Tajik 09:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- Right, since we have Court-TV footage of these events that make them undisputable :)) Where is the source and proof for this heart-braking story? "He managed to escape while his mother was killed by the Uzbeks".. There better be sources to colloborate this story, since it makes specific allegations. Bunch of legends and family-fire stories told at night doesn't make them real.. Where are the eye-witness stories? :) Baristarim 12:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The Afshars are associated with the Oguz tribes and are often mistakenly referred to as Turkic or Turkomen because they were a Qizilbash tribe. However, many Qizilbash tribes, such as the Afshars were ethnically Iranian or Kurdish, and not Turkic.--WingedEarth (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Zaparojdik
Incase you decide to revert again, I'm making this comment and posting the evidence. The Afsharids were an Iranian dynasty and they thought of themselves so, see this coin: Khosrow II 19:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly, all the coins minted at the time had "Iran Zameen" on them, proving that Afsharids thought of themselves as Iranians, and therefore were an Iranian dynasty. --Mardavich 10:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, they ruled over Persia, of course they were going to have to speak its language and cater to local sensitivities, that doesn't make their Oghuz-Turkic origins disappear, right? Baristarim 12:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Another thing: Nadir Shah was Sunni, not Shia, so, considering the importance of religion for self-identification back then, how is that a sign of him considering himself "Iranian"? If he considered himself Persian, he would have become Shia, now wouldn't he?? Gees, what the heck is going on? Baristarim 12:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, they ruled over Persia, of course they were going to have to speak its language and cater to local sensitivities, that doesn't make their Oghuz-Turkic origins disappear, right? Baristarim 12:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Nadir Shah and his sons were not of Turkic origin, he was only raised by the original Turkic tribe, and later assumed their leadership. He was Iranian, and so was his dynasty, and that's what they called themselves as you can see on their coins. Religions is irrelevant here, many Iranian dynasties were Sunni.--Mardavich 12:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- You mean Turkic dynasties that ruled over Persia were Sunni, I think. Of course they were going to cater to local sensitivities, what were they going to do? Print Turkic coins in Iran? I just don't get it, why is it so hard to accept that Persia has been ruled over by many Turkic tribes for centuries? This is just historical reality. Baristarim 12:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Turkic and Sunni are not synonymous. Neither Nadir Shah nor his dynasty were Turkic, they called themselves Iranians. Infact, they fought the Ottoman Turks, and they defeated the Ottoman Turks on several occasions. --Mardavich 12:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- And that proves?? Turks also have fought between themselves for centuries, just like the Germanic tribes have done.. Don't confuse ambition for power with ethnic origin.. He was raised by a Turkic tribe, but was not Turkic? It is pretty safe to assume that when you grow up in a family you kinda pick up on the culture.. So, it is even better, Nadir was Turkic by his upbringing.. I mean, I don't get this: there are Turkic elements popping up at every corner in every argument used to prove that they were Persian, you cannot simply put an intro that overlooks this fact as if they dropped from heaven.. That's all I am saying.. Baristarim 12:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, they didn't drop from heaven, they were Iranian, they were born and raised in Iran, they called themselves Iranian, practiced Iranian culture, and spoke Persian. Learn to live with it, the world doesn't revolve around Turks or Turkey. --Mardavich 13:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Kinda funny that Tajik says the opposite above when he says that Afshars were Oghuz Turkic.. Interesting.. The reality is that a Turkic tribe simply ruled over Persia, because they were stronger.. That's all.. Baristarim 13:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Who is talking about a tribe here? Read Tajik's comment, Afsharid dynasty were not Turkic! Nader Shah was not Turkic! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why are you removing the word "Iranian" from the intro, when the Afsharid dynasty called themslves Irannian and this is documented on their coins, official proclamations etc? Put aside your Turkish nationalistic feelings and be reasonable for once. --Mardavich 13:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Baristarim, your not making any sense. The Seljuks also spoke Persian and promoted Iranian culture, along with most other Turkic dynasties of the region. Nadir shah considered himself Iranian, as did the Seljuks, and Ghaznavids. By the way, what did the Ottoman coins say? Did they say Rome on them? Because according to you, Nadir Shah was only trying to please the locals, so why didnt the Ottomans do the same thing?Khosrow II 16:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Who is talking about a tribe here? Read Tajik's comment, Afsharid dynasty were not Turkic! Nader Shah was not Turkic! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why are you removing the word "Iranian" from the intro, when the Afsharid dynasty called themslves Irannian and this is documented on their coins, official proclamations etc? Put aside your Turkish nationalistic feelings and be reasonable for once. --Mardavich 13:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Kinda funny that Tajik says the opposite above when he says that Afshars were Oghuz Turkic.. Interesting.. The reality is that a Turkic tribe simply ruled over Persia, because they were stronger.. That's all.. Baristarim 13:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, they didn't drop from heaven, they were Iranian, they were born and raised in Iran, they called themselves Iranian, practiced Iranian culture, and spoke Persian. Learn to live with it, the world doesn't revolve around Turks or Turkey. --Mardavich 13:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- And that proves?? Turks also have fought between themselves for centuries, just like the Germanic tribes have done.. Don't confuse ambition for power with ethnic origin.. He was raised by a Turkic tribe, but was not Turkic? It is pretty safe to assume that when you grow up in a family you kinda pick up on the culture.. So, it is even better, Nadir was Turkic by his upbringing.. I mean, I don't get this: there are Turkic elements popping up at every corner in every argument used to prove that they were Persian, you cannot simply put an intro that overlooks this fact as if they dropped from heaven.. That's all I am saying.. Baristarim 12:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Nadir Shah and his sons were not of Turkic origin, he was only raised by the original Turkic tribe, and later assumed their leadership. He was Iranian, and so was his dynasty, and that's what they called themselves as you can see on their coins. Religions is irrelevant here, many Iranian dynasties were Sunni.--Mardavich 12:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- My comment at the beginning of the discussion is wrong. Nadir Shah was a Persian-speaking Turcoman from Khorasan. He was not really an "Afshar", but a "Qirqlu" Turcoman. He lost his parents at a very early age and was adopted by the Khan of the Afsharids.
- However, the dynasty created by Nadir was certainly not "Turkic" or "Turkish". It was an Iranian kingdom which understood itself as a continuation of the previous Iranian Shahdoms. That's why he adopted the title "Shah".
- See the article "Afshars" in Iranica.
- As for Baristarim: 90% of his comments are nonsense. Claiming that "Turks ruled in Iran because they were stronger" is pure nonsense, because none of the dynasties in the Islamic world was "pure". At the time of Nadir Shah, the overwehleming majority of the armies - both in the Ottoman Empire as well as in Iran - were Non-Iranian and Non-Turkish, because both groups - though known as fierce fighters throughout history - had lost all fighting qualities. The Iranianm Turcoman soldiers were already replaced by loyal Armenian and Georgian elite fighters, the Ottoman army consited largely of converted European soldiers. In addition, the army of Nadir Shah was dominated by another elite group, the Ghilzai Pashtuns of Afghanistan, who were fierce fighters - and still are fierce fighters until today. They were regarded a Martial Race by the British who were never able to fully subdue the Pashtuns. Along with the Pashtuns, another relatively unknown group made its appearance as "fighters", the Tajiks of Panjsher and Badakhshan. Although these Tajiks" (modern Panjsheris - see also: United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan or Ahmad Shah Massoud) were already known to Babur (whose army was dominated by Badakhshani Tajiks), they were quite unknown until they defeated the British army during the Anglo-Afghan wars (they are known as "Kohistanis" in historical documents). These regions had always been autonomous and were only ruled by the local tribal leaders (until today; that's why Afghanistan is still such a mess).
- In the 18th century, Turks did not play any major role as "fighters" or "conquerors". The Ottoman Empire was a dying nation, the Central Asian Turks were overrun by Russian armies in the following decades, Anatolia was overrun by allied forces.
- Tājik 22:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear Tajik, Nader shah defeated the ghilzai pashtuns, and conquered afghanistan, later he used them in his army as something like "pawns". The brittish were perhaps not able to subdue the pashtuns, but many others did, including nader shah as said before. Ghilzai pashtuns previously had defeated the remaining safavids, conquering most of persia, including its capital Isfahan, in which they cut the head of 70,000 civilians and built a monument with them, showing the world what a martial race as you call them can do to unarmed civilians. After some 7 years they were defeated by nader shah, the invading force which was trying to flee were all hunted down and killed, including their leader ashraf.
Baristarim, i myself am a ghashgai Iranian, one of the tribes turks claim as their own, much like the afsharids we have nothing to do with turks, we are more Iranian than the people in Irans great cities. It seems you claim every dynasty that defeats you as your own, the safavids and their ghezelbash, and the afsharids are two of which. --213.113.243.25 14:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Dear IP, thanks for your comment. I agree with you that Nadir Shah defeated the Ghilzai in mainland Persia, but that he only managed with the help of rival Durrani Pashtuns. Actually, I did a mistake in my previous comment: not the Ghilzai were allied to Nadir Shah, but the Durrani. Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder of modern Afghanistan, was Nadir Shah's high ranking general and his personal bodyguard - his 4,000 soldiers were the elite of the Persian army and the major force in Nadir Shah's invasions in India.
- What I am trying to say is that Baristarims claim that "Turks were stronger as the rest ... blah blah blah" is pure nonsense. People back then did not fight in the name of certain nationalities, the identified themselvs with their religion and their loyalty to a certain king - no matter wether that king was an Arab, a Turk, or a Persian. By the time of Nadir Shah, Turks were not the same fighters they used to be a few centuries earlier ... they had already been replaced with mighty fighters from all corners of Asia, most notably from the Pashtun areas, from the Caucasus, and from the Pamir region.
- And none of the dynasties back then actually identified themselvs as "Turks", "Persians", or "Indians".
- Tājik 18:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- If none of them identified themselves as such, why are we referring to them as "Persian" in the intro then?? We can say "a dynasty of Persia/Iran" in that case.. Look Tajik, I definitely agree with you that such ethnic identifications were not common back in the day, but all I am trying to say is that it is the preference of one over another is what is inappropriate.. And don't jump so easily on my flamebaits :))) I didn't say that "Turks were stronger than the rest blah blah".. I was just trying to say that they were stronger for a period in Central Asian-Middle Eastern history.. They were not, however, strong at all in 18th, 19th centuries.. Baristarim 20:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Iranian dynasty" with a Wiki-Link to Iran is OK. However, the old version of the text, namely "Turkic dynasty", was deffínitly wrong.
- Tājik 21:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- I would say this and hope all those who speak irrelevant things once listen and do not talk later on. Nader Shah belonged to the Afshar tribe. That is A Shia Turkicspeaking tribe of Iran. Many tribes in Iran are Turkicspeaking. Turkicspeaking tribes have played a major role in the Iranian statehood. Afshars and Nader Shah regard(ed) themselves as Iranians. Nader Shah was very tolerant towards the Sunnis, After he defeated them )Afghans and Ottomans(, but there are no proofs that he was a Sunni himself. It is also not very probable regarding the facts that 1- Afshar tribe was Shia and is Shia 2- His deeds and actions in saving the Iranian statehood were all about defeating the Sunnis. So only after he was secure of the Iranian stability he became tolerant towards them.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Template:Afsharid dynasty infobox
I am afshar and I am Turkish.
Unoubtedly Afsharid dynasty is originally Oghuz Turkic tribe. Since I am afshar and I am and Oghuz Turkish.
Encyclopaedia Iranica link
This link:
- Afsharids entry in Encyclopaedia Iranica
Was added by a Columbia University IP along with many other links to the site. I have moved it hear in keeping with our external links guidelines so unconnected editors can evaluate its appropriateness. Many of the website's entries are short and may not contain much more than the articles they have been added to. However, this might be a good source even if editors do not consider it an appropriate external link. -- SiobhanHansa 01:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia Iranica is produced by Columbia University and is a scholarly source. It should not be removed from the articles as they are pertinent sources of reference.--Zereshk 12:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
MAHABAT KHAN LAL,Quzal baige, was the grand son of Nader Shah and he had come to Chitral in 1749. Mahabat Khan Lal was the Afghani not Turkish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.205.115 (talk) 10:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Map
Can someone please change the map to the one on the Nader Shah article? This map doesn't reflect conquests in Central Asia, Arabia, and India — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaveh94 (talk • contribs) 07:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Query
To Folantin, you brought this source out of nowhere it seems. How come you never sourced it in the days you continuously edited this article? Seems rather strange. I searched for this in the internet and the only quote I got was about Nadir claiming his Turkic ancestry, but not his cultural or linguistic preference. Can you extract the quotes where Nadir said he prefers to speak his "Turkic" language? And exactly what "Turkic" language was it? I have another point to say but I will only say it after your reply.Qatarihistorian (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- It's the major modern biography of Nader Shah in English. You can read the relevant passage at Google Books here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=O4FFQjh-gr8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nader+Shah&source=bl&ots=6cWZ6mMreE&sig=WvRg_X85YeYjZkp67j5tyji8rSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ruc7UP6GLumw0AXX94DoCA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=language&f=false --Folantin (talk) 21:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- "How come you never sourced it in the days you continuously edited this article?" Why would anyone doubt that a Turkic semi-nomad would speak a Turkic language? --Folantin (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- You said preferred, not speak. I speak English but it doesn't mean I prefer it. The Emir of Qatar speaks English but that doesn't make it one of Qatar's national languages. Your Google book source makes no mention of your claim that Nadir Shah preferred Turkic. All it says is that he understood it to a degree and may have spoken it with Mohammad Shah of the Mughal Empire. That's about it. I see no point in putting that in the article since it doesn't define the linguistic operation of the Afsharid kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- You obviously haven't read the source. It says quite clearly: "But the Turkic language was always his preferred everyday speech, unless he was dealing with someone who knew only Persian." --Folantin (talk) 21:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- You said preferred, not speak. I speak English but it doesn't mean I prefer it. The Emir of Qatar speaks English but that doesn't make it one of Qatar's national languages. Your Google book source makes no mention of your claim that Nadir Shah preferred Turkic. All it says is that he understood it to a degree and may have spoken it with Mohammad Shah of the Mughal Empire. That's about it. I see no point in putting that in the article since it doesn't define the linguistic operation of the Afsharid kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- "How come you never sourced it in the days you continuously edited this article?" Why would anyone doubt that a Turkic semi-nomad would speak a Turkic language? --Folantin (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
My bad, I didn't see that. I skid to the other pages, you should've told me exactly which page you referred to. But this brings up another question. Which Turkic language? You can't just say "Turkic", it means a load of things. Furthermore, this applies to Nadir Shah. Again, it doesn't describe the mode of operation of the Afsharid kingdom so why put it in the infobox? You might as well put this in Nadir Shah's wikipedia page because it'll make more sense.Qatarihistorian (talk) 21:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- The page reference is clearly marked in the article. Further, Axworthy writes in his Iran: Empire of the Mind (p.159): "he and his Safavid predecessors were of Turkic origin and spoke a Turkic language at court..." I see no valid reason not to mention this. --Folantin (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Which Turkic language? You still can't tell me. We know the Safavids occasionally tested their bilingual skills in Azerbaijani even though Persian was the official and predominant language of the Safavid Empire. Unfortunately that reference makes no solution for Nadir Shah's linguistic preference, because ultimately nobody even knows what Turkic language in specific he spoke. And I have a third point to say, but I'll wait for your reply first.Qatarihistorian (talk) 22:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- The source says "Turkic" so that's what we put. It's irrelevant whether we can define the exact dialect of "Turki" he spoke. I really don't understand why you are so opposed to simple historical fact: Nader Shah spoke Turkic. --Folantin (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the last part of your sentence. It brings me to the third point I wanted to say. Nadir's preference doesn't mean anything with regards to the Afsharid kingdom, which continued long after he was gone. Persian is the only language which defines the state. Ultimately Turkic may have only defined Nadir's personal life but it makes no relevance to the Afsharid kingdom's officlal/national language claims.Qatarihistorian (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- To all intents and purposes Nader Shah was the Afsharid dynasty. The rest were basically nonentities. Plus, you have no evidence they didn't speak Turkic (which seems highly likely). --Folantin (talk) 22:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- PS:I am going to bed now. The article is sourced. I see no merit to your arguments.--Folantin (talk) 22:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- To all intents and purposes Nader Shah was the Afsharid dynasty. The rest were basically nonentities. Plus, you have no evidence they didn't speak Turkic (which seems highly likely). --Folantin (talk) 22:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the last part of your sentence. It brings me to the third point I wanted to say. Nadir's preference doesn't mean anything with regards to the Afsharid kingdom, which continued long after he was gone. Persian is the only language which defines the state. Ultimately Turkic may have only defined Nadir's personal life but it makes no relevance to the Afsharid kingdom's officlal/national language claims.Qatarihistorian (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- The source says "Turkic" so that's what we put. It's irrelevant whether we can define the exact dialect of "Turki" he spoke. I really don't understand why you are so opposed to simple historical fact: Nader Shah spoke Turkic. --Folantin (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Which Turkic language? You still can't tell me. We know the Safavids occasionally tested their bilingual skills in Azerbaijani even though Persian was the official and predominant language of the Safavid Empire. Unfortunately that reference makes no solution for Nadir Shah's linguistic preference, because ultimately nobody even knows what Turkic language in specific he spoke. And I have a third point to say, but I'll wait for your reply first.Qatarihistorian (talk) 22:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
The last part of your sentence is illogical. There's a question of proving, not disproving. I ask you to prove god exists, not ask you to prove god doesn't exist. So that argument you used is weak. Bear in mind these Turkic dynasties were all highly Persianized. Nader Shah is not the dynasty, neither is he the Afsharid kingdom. Unless you can provide a source which says the other 3 shahs also preferred Turkic and made it integral to the constitution of the country, then it makes no sense adding that to the list of languages. Basically, only Persian was the official language.Qatarihistorian (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- No, he used Turkic as a court language (as did the Safavids), so it was a language of administration. He also used Persian, of course, which is why it's also in the infobox. Michael Axworthy is far more knowledgeable about this subject than you. You clearly have some personal reason for continually pushing your POV and trying to purge Turkic from this article. You do not get to remove material referenced to reliable sources just because you don't like it. It was especially sneaky to do this after I said I was going to bed. --Folantin (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- I couldn't care less if you went to bed or not, wikipedia doesn't revolve around you. Furthermore, Persian was the official language of the state. Find me references of Turkic being an official language, otherwise your sources simply reassert Nader Shah's personal preferences, which is irrelevant to the mode of operation of the Afsharid kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- You had no consensus to make those changes and remove valid references. Nader Shah was the only significant member of the Afsharid dynasty. He was an absolute monarch who gave orders in Turkic. His court spoke Turkic. The court of the previous dynasty spoke Turkic. To purge Turkic from the infobox is simply not acceptable and we are simply dealing with your own personal prejudices here. --Folantin (talk) 09:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, and the title of the article is the Afsharid dynasty, not the Afsharid kingdom. The conventional name of the latter is "Iran" (or "Persia"). --Folantin (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, do not accuse me of being prejudice. Your accusations cannot be proven. This is a content dispute, not a prejudice war, which is why I took the initiative to resolve this issue here. If you think I am being prejudice then believe you me I wouldn't have wasted my time discussing this with you. Where is the source to say Nader Shah was the only significant member of the dynasty? This is your point of view. Funny you say I have points of view but then you contradict yourself. The state's official language, which usually goes in the country infobox, was Persian. Find me a source that claims otherwise. Do not find me something as ludicrous as one member of the dynasty preferring to speak his native tongue from time to time. That doesn't constitute that language as official.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't know that Nader Shah was the only significant member of the dynasty, then you don't know about the Afsharid dynasty. Your bias is obvious. It's not enough for you to have both Turkic and Persian in the infobox, Turkic must be purged. --Folantin (talk) 09:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Anyhow, I've reported you to an admin for infringing 3RR and general edit-warring. --Folantin (talk) 09:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't know that Nader Shah was the only significant member of the dynasty, then you don't know about the Afsharid dynasty. Your bias is obvious. It's not enough for you to have both Turkic and Persian in the infobox, Turkic must be purged. --Folantin (talk) 09:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, do not accuse me of being prejudice. Your accusations cannot be proven. This is a content dispute, not a prejudice war, which is why I took the initiative to resolve this issue here. If you think I am being prejudice then believe you me I wouldn't have wasted my time discussing this with you. Where is the source to say Nader Shah was the only significant member of the dynasty? This is your point of view. Funny you say I have points of view but then you contradict yourself. The state's official language, which usually goes in the country infobox, was Persian. Find me a source that claims otherwise. Do not find me something as ludicrous as one member of the dynasty preferring to speak his native tongue from time to time. That doesn't constitute that language as official.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, and the title of the article is the Afsharid dynasty, not the Afsharid kingdom. The conventional name of the latter is "Iran" (or "Persia"). --Folantin (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- You had no consensus to make those changes and remove valid references. Nader Shah was the only significant member of the Afsharid dynasty. He was an absolute monarch who gave orders in Turkic. His court spoke Turkic. The court of the previous dynasty spoke Turkic. To purge Turkic from the infobox is simply not acceptable and we are simply dealing with your own personal prejudices here. --Folantin (talk) 09:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- I couldn't care less if you went to bed or not, wikipedia doesn't revolve around you. Furthermore, Persian was the official language of the state. Find me references of Turkic being an official language, otherwise your sources simply reassert Nader Shah's personal preferences, which is irrelevant to the mode of operation of the Afsharid kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Childish. You can't even resolve this issue with me and instead taking the easy way out. Just because you didn't revert over 3 times in the past 24 hours doesn't mean you were not partaking in reverts despite me asking you to resolve the issue here once and for all.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- You did not get consensus for your changes on the talk page. You simply waited until I went to bed and then purged the infobox of Turkic again. I suggest you revert your last edit.--Folantin (talk) 09:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- You obviously don't know what the infoboxes are for then.Qatarihistorian (talk) 09:46, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- You did not get consensus for your changes on the talk page. You simply waited until I went to bed and then purged the infobox of Turkic again. I suggest you revert your last edit.--Folantin (talk) 09:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Folantin: I readded Turkic into the infobox but only with the source that says Nader spoke Turkic in his court because that might be the only relevant one to the Afsharid kingdom, whereas the source of his personal preference should go to his page. Having said that, I will bring this issue up to another person who might or might not be of help in further judgment.Qatarihistorian (talk) 10:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- It's clear that Nader Shah used Turkic as his preferred language of command, making it an important administrative language (probably the most important). Persian was used by the civil service.
- However, the current version of the infobox is be acceptable to me so long as we can add that Turkic was Nader's native language. If so, then I will tell the admin that no further action needs taking. --Folantin (talk) 10:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- What you tell or don't tell the admin is irrelevant because admins will most likely take action against anyone who goes over 3 reverts. Such is the case of wikipedia, which unfortunately is childish. Now for the content, the infobox relates to the country, not dynasty. This is the mistake you're making. The country established by the dynasty has its information put on the infobox. Therefore the Afsharid kingdom's predominant linguistic (and cultural) identity was Persian. That is made clear by the fact the country was Persianate in its mode of operation. Persian was the official language and predominant language. Nader Shah may have spoken Turkic but it does not succeed in its importance over Persian. This applies universally on almost all Turkic-ruled Persianate dynasties so I see not why it should be any different in the Afsharid page. I have only readded Turkic because we are disputing it but I will say that another person's view has to be added because I believe you are mixing the linguistic preference of one guy with the official linguistic identity of an entire kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 10:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- If the article is about the country (or empire), then other languages - not just Persian and Turkic - would need to be added, e.g. Kurdish, Georgian, Armenian, Pashto etc. The title of this article is "Afsharid dynasty". If the infobox does not fit that, then maybe we should just get rid of the infobox. But it is employed on similar articles. What's clear is that both Persian and Turkic were used in the administration of the realm. Plus, Nader Shah wasn't just "one guy"; L'état, c'est moi is even truer in his case than it is of Louis XIV. --Folantin (talk) 10:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- This is the case with all the other dynastic pages. You have the page talking about the dynasty and then a nice little infobox in the right describing the state that the dynasty established, with its official/court language, etc and sources backing them up. Technically it should only include the official/court languages but you have people (presumably Turks, I don't know) who edit the page and add things like "Turkic (military)" or something along these lines in the infobox as well, which is normally kept intact in order to keep every side happy. But in reality the infobox is for the country which the dynasty founded, and not for the actual dynasty. I don't think French sayings really matter because the eastern cultures are not as black and white as what the French kings used to say. In the eastern cultures, you can be a Turk and Persian at the same time. For example, I am Arab and Jewish at the same time. So it means nothing.Qatarihistorian (talk) 10:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- The French means: "The state is me." I only put that there because that was basically Nader Shah's attitude. He was an absolute monarch, so what was "official" or not was of little importance compared to his own personal will. He effectively was the government of Iran, so if he preferred to give commands in Turkic then it's a significant language of government. Of course, he also spoke and used Persian (and probably wrote Persian rather than Turkic - according to Axworthy, it's possible he became literate later in life) and his civil service used Persian.
- The only thing I am objecting to is Turkic being excluded here since it was clearly a language of government alongside Persian. As you say, many Eastern dynasties were multi-lingual (as were many Western ones BTW). The Mughal Empire infobox contains Persian, (Chagatai) Turkic and Urdu.
- General point: I usually think Misplaced Pages infoboxes are badly designed and misleading and more trouble than they are worth. --Folantin (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- This is the case with all the other dynastic pages. You have the page talking about the dynasty and then a nice little infobox in the right describing the state that the dynasty established, with its official/court language, etc and sources backing them up. Technically it should only include the official/court languages but you have people (presumably Turks, I don't know) who edit the page and add things like "Turkic (military)" or something along these lines in the infobox as well, which is normally kept intact in order to keep every side happy. But in reality the infobox is for the country which the dynasty founded, and not for the actual dynasty. I don't think French sayings really matter because the eastern cultures are not as black and white as what the French kings used to say. In the eastern cultures, you can be a Turk and Persian at the same time. For example, I am Arab and Jewish at the same time. So it means nothing.Qatarihistorian (talk) 10:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- If the article is about the country (or empire), then other languages - not just Persian and Turkic - would need to be added, e.g. Kurdish, Georgian, Armenian, Pashto etc. The title of this article is "Afsharid dynasty". If the infobox does not fit that, then maybe we should just get rid of the infobox. But it is employed on similar articles. What's clear is that both Persian and Turkic were used in the administration of the realm. Plus, Nader Shah wasn't just "one guy"; L'état, c'est moi is even truer in his case than it is of Louis XIV. --Folantin (talk) 10:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- What you tell or don't tell the admin is irrelevant because admins will most likely take action against anyone who goes over 3 reverts. Such is the case of wikipedia, which unfortunately is childish. Now for the content, the infobox relates to the country, not dynasty. This is the mistake you're making. The country established by the dynasty has its information put on the infobox. Therefore the Afsharid kingdom's predominant linguistic (and cultural) identity was Persian. That is made clear by the fact the country was Persianate in its mode of operation. Persian was the official language and predominant language. Nader Shah may have spoken Turkic but it does not succeed in its importance over Persian. This applies universally on almost all Turkic-ruled Persianate dynasties so I see not why it should be any different in the Afsharid page. I have only readded Turkic because we are disputing it but I will say that another person's view has to be added because I believe you are mixing the linguistic preference of one guy with the official linguistic identity of an entire kingdom.Qatarihistorian (talk) 10:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Which brings me to my earlier point, that the Afsharid dynasty was not just Nader Shah. The dynasty effectively continued for another 49 years after his 11 year reign. It's not always about the state being him or him being the state. His linguistic preference does not contradict the fact that his kingdom's (and therefore dynasty's) official language and court language was Persian. I suppose I can see why Turkic has to be added in the list of languages, but technically Persian remains the dominant one. If a country's linguistic and cultural identity is predominantly and overwhelmingly Persian, and if the ruling dynasty (like others before them) were assimilated into that Persianate mold to the extent they made the Persian language the official/court language of the state, then I can't see how that is in any shape or form overshadowed by the ruler's linguistic preference. Like I said last night, imagine Qatar's emir for a second. He's an absolute monarch so what he says goes. Now to Qatar's shariah, Arabic is the official language and court language of the state. But the emir ironically speaks English and prefers its usage a lot more than he does for Arabic. But it does not change the core/primary linguistic identity of the Al-Thani dynasty, neither does it change the linguistic official identity of the Qatari state which the Al-Thani dynasty established.
- Anyway I'm logging off now. I believe we came to an agreement over the languages but it remains to be heard from a third opinion.Qatarihistorian (talk) 11:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Turkic was a court language as well as Persian, as it was for the Safavids. Most of the Afsharid dynasty's apparent length is made up by the "reign" of Shahrokh, a blind puppet king who "ruled" over a rump state in name only. It's also highly likely he spoke Turkic too. It's impossible to underestimate the importance of Nader Shah. He's really the only Afsharid who counts. On his death, his empire disintegrated within a couple of years. --Folantin (talk) 11:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Not really. Persian was the court and official language as many historians are known to say. So far Turkic was only interchangeably used by Nader when needed be, but this isn't officially regulated or sanctioned by his government. Nader Shah didn't go around sanctioning his native language as the official national/court language. He may have used it from time to time, but that's about it. The only language that was ever truly sanctioned as official/court languages, through all these centuries of Turkic-ruled dynasties, was the Persian language. Which is why these dynasties are all described by various historians as "Persianate" dynasties, i.e. dynasties based on the Persian language/culture/identity, thanks to assimilation with the natives. Again, you can say Turkic was used, and maybe it was for different reasons. But its use is clearly not as overwhelming as you ought to think. These people were acculturated to their nation's native identities first, and looked to their origins second. Shahrokh's likelihood of linguistic choice cannot be predicted from thin air. If we base logic on other resources, we'd assume the same thing for him as we did for previous Turkic dynasties in Iran: almost all were heavily Persianized/Persian-speaking. See you some other time.Qatarihistorian (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Except Nader specifically played up his Turkic roots. As Professor Ernest Tucker writes in Encyclopaedia Iranica: "Nāder departed substantially from Safavid precedent by ... promoting the common Turkmen descent of the contemporary Muslim rulers as a basis for international relations...Nāder’s focus on common Turkmen descent likewise was designed to establish a broad political framework that could tie him, more closely than his Safavid predecessors, to both Ottomans and Mughals. When describing Nāder’s coronation, Astarābādi called the assembly on the Moḡān steppe a quriltāy, evoking the practice of Mughal and Timurid conclaves that periodically met to select new khans. In various official documents, Nāder recalled how he, Ottomans, Uzbeks, and Mughals shared a common Turkmen heritage. This concept for him resembled, in broad terms, the origin myths of 15th century Anatolian Turkmen dynasties. However, since he also addressed the Mughal emperor as a 'Turkmen' ruler, Nāder implicitly extended the word 'Turkmen' to refer, not only to progeny of the twenty-four Ḡozz tribes, but to Timur’s descendants as well." Shahrokh was named after this guy. The name was specifically chosen to emphasise Nader's links with the Turco-Mongolian tradition. --Folantin (talk) 11:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- IF we are to accept this, "Homa Katouzian, "Iranian history and politics", pg 128, and the corresponding sentences, "Indeed, since the formation of the Ghaznavids state in the tenth century until the fall of Qajars at the beginning of the twentieth century, most parts of the Iranian cultural regions were ruled by Turkic-speaking dynasties most of the time. At the same time, the official language was Persian, the court literature was in Persian, and most of the chancellors, ministers, and mandarins were Persian speakers of the highest learning and ability", as a reliable source, then any dynasty that is sourced by this reference therefore must also be "Turkic-speaking" else the source does not apply! We can not "cherry pick" what we want from a source simply to promote one aspect. --Defensor Ursa 16:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Except Nader specifically played up his Turkic roots. As Professor Ernest Tucker writes in Encyclopaedia Iranica: "Nāder departed substantially from Safavid precedent by ... promoting the common Turkmen descent of the contemporary Muslim rulers as a basis for international relations...Nāder’s focus on common Turkmen descent likewise was designed to establish a broad political framework that could tie him, more closely than his Safavid predecessors, to both Ottomans and Mughals. When describing Nāder’s coronation, Astarābādi called the assembly on the Moḡān steppe a quriltāy, evoking the practice of Mughal and Timurid conclaves that periodically met to select new khans. In various official documents, Nāder recalled how he, Ottomans, Uzbeks, and Mughals shared a common Turkmen heritage. This concept for him resembled, in broad terms, the origin myths of 15th century Anatolian Turkmen dynasties. However, since he also addressed the Mughal emperor as a 'Turkmen' ruler, Nāder implicitly extended the word 'Turkmen' to refer, not only to progeny of the twenty-four Ḡozz tribes, but to Timur’s descendants as well." Shahrokh was named after this guy. The name was specifically chosen to emphasise Nader's links with the Turco-Mongolian tradition. --Folantin (talk) 11:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Not really. Persian was the court and official language as many historians are known to say. So far Turkic was only interchangeably used by Nader when needed be, but this isn't officially regulated or sanctioned by his government. Nader Shah didn't go around sanctioning his native language as the official national/court language. He may have used it from time to time, but that's about it. The only language that was ever truly sanctioned as official/court languages, through all these centuries of Turkic-ruled dynasties, was the Persian language. Which is why these dynasties are all described by various historians as "Persianate" dynasties, i.e. dynasties based on the Persian language/culture/identity, thanks to assimilation with the natives. Again, you can say Turkic was used, and maybe it was for different reasons. But its use is clearly not as overwhelming as you ought to think. These people were acculturated to their nation's native identities first, and looked to their origins second. Shahrokh's likelihood of linguistic choice cannot be predicted from thin air. If we base logic on other resources, we'd assume the same thing for him as we did for previous Turkic dynasties in Iran: almost all were heavily Persianized/Persian-speaking. See you some other time.Qatarihistorian (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Turkic was a court language as well as Persian, as it was for the Safavids. Most of the Afsharid dynasty's apparent length is made up by the "reign" of Shahrokh, a blind puppet king who "ruled" over a rump state in name only. It's also highly likely he spoke Turkic too. It's impossible to underestimate the importance of Nader Shah. He's really the only Afsharid who counts. On his death, his empire disintegrated within a couple of years. --Folantin (talk) 11:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
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