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Revision as of 22:02, 23 September 2012

view · edit Frequently asked questions Main Criteria Instructions Nominations FAQ January backlog drive Mentorship Review circles Discussion Reassessment Report Shortcut WP:GAFAQ This is the list of Frequently asked questions about nominating and reviewing Good articles. If you cannot find the answer to your question here, you might want to ask for assistance at the GA nominations discussion page. Nomination process The backlog is huge! Is there something we can do to restrict nominations? There have been complaints about the perceived backlog in reviewing since the Good article status was created in 2006. Generally speaking, we don't want to restrict nominations along their path to GA. In the beginning, as many as 100 nominations were waiting for a reviewer to volunteer. By 2011, each day typically listed 330 nominated articles, of which 260 were waiting. By 2016, 580 were listed, 460 waiting; by 2021, 470 were listed, 300 were waiting. For comparison, today there are currently 657 nominations listed and 490 waiting for a reviewer. While it may seem overwhelming, a large backlog isn't a bad thing. It shows that many nominators want to use GA as a tool to improve the encyclopedia. It also allows reviewers to choose from a wide selection of articles that interest them. From a nominator's perspective, the main concern is the expected wait time before receiving a review, not the number of articles on the nominations page. Can't we force nominators to review articles? Quid pro quo reviewing (editors must review an article before nominating, perhaps after a grace period) was regularly proposed and always rejected as likely leading to lower quality reviews and fewer nominations from excellent content creators who may not wish to review another person's work. What order do nominations appear on the Good article nominations page? One advantage of reviewing articles to help the Misplaced Pages community is the GAN appearance order: the more articles you have reviewed relative to articles you have nominated, the higher up in the queue your nomination will appear on the GAN page. Note that above this, order preference is given to nominators who are new to GA. What if the nominator is a (perhaps dynamic) IP address? Any editor with significant contributions to the article may nominate an article for GA status (while only registered users may review), so significant-contributor IP nominators are permitted. Non-significant contributors should follow the advice above for editors who have not significantly contributed to the article. Dynamically changing IP nominators may want to clarify to the reviewer that, despite their signature, they remain the same person. Can I nominate an article I haven't significantly contributed to? No. Nominations from editors who have not substantially contributed will be removed unless the nomination shows that the article's regular editors were consulted on its talk page alongside a note on the GAN template showing their commitment to the process, e.g., |note=Adopted following extensive improvement by another editor. In the past, many drive-by nominators did not know the article or its sources and did not respond to questions by the reviewer. Review process I want to review an article. Do I have to review the oldest unreviewed nomination first? Thank you for deciding to review an article for GA. You may review any nominated article you are not involved in, regardless of the nomination's age or position in the queue. As a reviewer, I want to help the nominator improve the article, but it already meets the criteria. What am I supposed to do now? The purpose of a GA review is to determine whether the article meets the GA criteria. Article-improvement discussions are intended to prevent near-misses in nominated articles that almost meet the criteria. If the article already meets the criteria when you first review it, then explain exactly what you've checked in each of the main criteria (e.g., "I have verified there is no original research, copyright violations, plagiarism, unreliable sources, bias, edit wars, or untagged images.") and list it as a Good article. "Quick passes" are as legitimate as quick fails, although they are less common. Please do not make a list of nitpicky details or exceed the written requirements of the Good article criteria in an effort to make the review look rigorous. Instead, thank the nominator for presenting such a polished article, and encourage them to submit another. Who can respond to the review? The nominator is expected to respond to the reviewer's suggestions to improve the article, while everyone interested in the article is encouraged to participate in the review, not just the person who happened to nominate it. Nominators have no special privileges over other editors except that they can withdraw the nomination. Should nominators respond to reviewers' concerns? And what should reviewers do if they don't? The nominator has an interest in seeing the article become GA, so the nominator will likely want to respond to the reviewer to improve the article. In fact, all editors interested in the article are encouraged to respond to reviewers' concerns. However, nobody, including the nominator, is required to. If the reviewer identifies concerns directly related to the good article criteria and no one addresses the concerns, then no one should be surprised if the reviewer declines to list the article. If the article does not meet the Good article criteria after the reviewer has waited a reasonable amount of time for the nominator to make improvements, the reviewer is sure to fail the nomination. Future article editors may benefit from review comments on how to improve the article. The nominator disagrees with the reviewer. Can another reviewer take over? If your GAN experience is not going well or if you are disagreeing with the reviewer's decisions, then you may allow the review to fail, take the reviewer's suggestions into account, then renominate the article immediately (to get a different reviewer). If the reviewer has not yet failed the nomination, you may try asking them to ask for a second opinion. Other than these, another reviewer does not normally take over an active review. To prevent avoidable disputes, reviewers should either not make comments unrelated to the Good article criteria, or they should carefully label those suggestions as optional (e.g., "I know that citation formatting is not required by the Good article criteria, and I will not consider this when making my decision, but if you might send this to Misplaced Pages:Featured articles later, then that process requires consistent citation formatting"). Does an article have to be on hold for exactly seven days? No. Whether to place the nomination on hold at all, and the length of any such hold, is for the reviewer to decide. Depending on the quality of the article and the responsiveness of the nominator, a hold may not be necessary. If the reviewer decides that it is, they may choose longer or shorter periods of hold time. The reviewer may even modify the {{GA nominee}} template on the article talk page to include a "time" parameter, for example, "time=fourteen days", and the {{GANotice}} template used to convey messages to the GA nominator to include a "days" parameter, for example "days=fourteen". Keep in mind that protracted reviews show up as exceptions on the GA nominations report page. What should I do if a review page becomes inactive? This can happen for a number of reasons. Review pages should only be started by reviewers who are willing to take an active interest in the article and are committed to completing their review of the article in a timely manner. Sometimes another editor (such as the nominator) starts the review page by mistake. A reviewer can fix this by placing their signature after "Reviewer:" towards the top of the review page, but if no reviewer is forthcoming, it may be best to delete the review page: requests for such deletions may be posted at the discussion page. If a new reviewer is truly needed, follow the instructions page under "If a review seems abandoned". Do not use this process to void a review you disagree with. I failed the article, and the nominator just nominated it again without fixing the problems I identified! That's okay. There is no time limit between nominations, and this is the recommended process if the nominator disagrees with your review. Let someone else review it this time. The new reviewer is sure to read your comments while independently deciding on their assessment. If your concerns were legitimate, then the new reviewer will doubtless agree with you and also decline to list the article as GA. If the article is passed and you do not believe it meets the good article criteria, you can initiate a reassessment. How can GA be reliable when a single reviewer decides? The quality of a Good article is only as reliable as the most recent review and articles may deteriorate if unattended. The GA process deals with both of these issues by allowing repeat reviews by any registered user at any time. The process aims to encourage article improvement and build consensus on quality through multiple reviews—even though a single reviewer makes the decision whether to list the article according to the GA criteria. Any editor may contribute to any review discussion and reassessment is available when the "one reviewer decides" model breaks down. What if I have concerns about the quality of a review or need to resolve a dispute over the GA process? You can bring those concerns to the GA nominations discussion page to get help from other editors. Remember, however, to notify all users about whom concerns have been raised or who are involved in any dispute that you have.

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This talk page should be used for discussions relating to the nominating and reviewing of Good article nominations. Please direct any comments regarding the improvement of the GA program as a whole to WikiProject Good Articles. Thank you.

• WT:GAN

"Theatre, film and drama" section change?

Shouldn't the Theatre, film and drama section include television? I would suggest "Theatre, film, and television," since the use of the word "drama" here seems to be redundant with "theatre." I would suggest that change or just make the "Episodes" into a general Television section. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• Come to think of it, I would suggest adding three subsections: one for Film, one for Theatre, and one for Television... -- Wikipedical (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

• I want to remind people that unilateral changes break the page, so the best procedure is to figure out what the best change is (if any), arrange to change the GA bot to handle the new topic name and/or subtopic names, and then make the switchover at an agreed upon time so the bot and page are in alignment. As to the proposal, there are other areas being covered, so we'll want to retain some form of "Other" subtopic to take whatever's left over. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

• Then I propose renaming "Theatre, film and drama" to "Theatre, film and television" and making subsections "Theatre," "Film," "Television," and "Radio and other." -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Or "Drama, film and television," if that better encompasses radio. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I made this proposal here: Misplaced Pages talk:Good articles#.22Theatre.2C film and drama.22 section change proposal. -- Wikipedical (talk) 04:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Is a new section required?

I passed Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM lens which is a wonderful article about a photographic lens, I went to place it in a photography or camera section and found it doesn't exist. In all seriousness, I think we need a new section because while photography is an art, it can be more mundane, and we lack such a section about photography. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• If we start a Photography section at Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Art_and_architecture it could represent both sides of the lens with Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM lens, More Demi Moore and possibly Demi's Birthday Suit. There are some photographer bios like Ernest Brooks, Alberto Henschel, Hiroh Kikai and Hans Namuth that could also contribute to a photography section.
• We may consider putting this lens in Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Engineering_and_technology#Computing_and_engineering since that is probably where a telescope would go and this is similar type of technology
• Alternatively, we may consider Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Natural_sciences#Physics, which is where optics should go.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:59, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

After waking up, I am now also a bit concerned about the driveby feel of this review. There were only minor changes by the reviewer before passing this complicated article that is outside my area of expertise.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:30, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

GA is not FA, I'm not into dictating your prose and making massive changes. I also clearly outlined what I would expect of a FA level in the article which is far more technical and that I would require detailed graphs (currently accessible via links) such as the MTF chart. However, you have clearly provided a detailed account of vignetting and chromatic aberration, of which are the most important next to resolution. Distortion on the lens is also detailed, with its possibly major flaw being cited as 'foreground subjects appear abnormally large'. The critical commentary specifically notes the flaws and what it is ideal for 'car photographs'. You may miss a note about photographers being able to use this camera in tight places, but that comment is really ambiguous. Overall, you give the details, back it up with numbers and I went and checked the facts and came away from the article with understanding of the lens. That's the important thing, I am confident I understand the lens in enough to detail to base future response on it, this is not some Amazon review, this is a detailed, technical overview of the lens which addresses its flaws and gives specific examples. If spending an hour or two reviewing the material isn't enough for you (and another 30 minutes to run through the checklist afterwards) then put it up for a second look. I just follow the guidelines and there was nothing to hamper the GA status. I should note my first (or one of my first) GA reviews is a featured article with relatively minor changes. And I fully note that this won't make it to FA in its current state which requires it to be more polished and filled out. But whatever, its not a B-class to me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

A while back, I asked some experienced reviewers how long they spent working on reviews, and one or two hours seemed to be the normal level, at least for articles within their usual area of experience and in decent initial condition. This suggests that Chris' review is pretty typical. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I had hoped for more feedback. This article is outside of my area of expertise. I was just disappointed to receive so little feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:00, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a note on photography; Pale Blue Dot would also be a worthwhile article to consider for it, should its nature as a photograph trump its connection to astronomy. GRAPPLE X 19:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

When is it the right time to nominate?

Here's a question relating specifically to music (album/single) articles. There seems to be an arbitrary thing about when an album/single should be nominated. Some people seem to think an artist needs to move on to a new album and begin a new single chronology before an album should be nominated. There's a similar line of thought about singles, that they shouldn't be nominated until the artist has moved onto the next one. A couple of people have noticed that Glassheart, an upcoming album by Leona Lewis that I have been working on is in good condition in anticipation of a GA nomination in the near future. My question is as the lead contributor to an album, if I feel confident that it is well written when is the correct time for it to be nominated? I'd automatically assume after release because the track listing is incomplete and there are no reviews yet etc but when after release is the correct time? — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 21:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Failed Garfield - what's the deal?

This editor failed Garfield: User talk:Lemsterboy - apparently he's had an account on wp about three hours or so. MathewTownsend (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

p.s. see Talk:Garfield/GA1 MathewTownsend (talk) 00:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

You are not going to like this.... but I do not know if it will pass as it seems to need a lot work on prose and missing content. So much original research appears to be in the article because it is not cited by reliable secondary resources. It needs a lot of work even from a cursory glance. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

While the review was not well done, I endorse the fail outcome. maclean (talk) 00:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I think you're right that I shouldn't worry about it, since the correct outcome resulted. Nice, practical approach! MathewTownsend (talk) 11:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Calling a vote for unclassified article

In a thread above, it was noted that Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM lens was passed and no category has been chosen to list it at WP:GA. Please vote for one of the following categories:

1. Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Engineering_and_technology#Computing_and_engineering (along with telescopes and microscopes, presumably)
2. Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Natural_sciences#Physics (optics is a subfield of physics)
3. create a new photography subsection in Misplaced Pages:Good_articles/Art_and_architecture (with Ernest Brooks, Alberto Henschel, Hiroh Kikai, Hans Namuth, Pale Blue Dot, More Demi Moore and possibly Demi's Birthday Suit) --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Votes

Engineering technology- seems similar to the numerous articles about various technology.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we can defer to the nominator (the one who did all the work) regarding which section to categorize it. maclean (talk) 00:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Query about quality of reviewing...

Could someone take a second look at the reviews of Talk:Nonviolent Communication/GA1, and Talk:Politics and Prose/GA1? One review consists of (in total) "ummm.. just another bookstore, nothing really special, kinda long, try to shorten it, and really boring,". In a similar vein are Talk:Annie Hall/GA1 and Talk:Milan/GA1. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing these up. All of them are flawed to a degree in the sense that the user is not applying the GA criteria (at least it's not evident in the text of the reviews). Nonviolent Communication has a few {{citation needed}} tags, which arguably is grounds for a quickfail, and Milan has some similar citation issues, but the reviewer doesn't seem to be basing pass/fail decisions on any guidelines. I'll leave a friendly note on the user's talk page. --Batard0 (talk) 08:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

These reviews are, at best, seriously misguided. I'd support deleting them, allowing a more experienced reviewer to take on the articles. J Milburn (talk) 08:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

This is probably the best course, under the circumstances. I would support it, while trying not to discourage the original reviewer. It may be a case of the reviewer honestly not knowing/applying the full guidelines. --Batard0 (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Sugar/GA1 is another article where this reviewer has made some difficult to understand comments and then seems to have left the review in the air. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

something like sourcing issue as one example is automatically expected to be quickfail according to the guidelines. if someone has a problem with the conclusion of an article, they can just renom it and pass or fail it. deleting comments is a bad idea. i feel my reviews are spectacular.

as for the "seems to have left the review in the air" -- that's okay, i felt that another reviewer should make a conclusion. you can also see Batard0's talk page for additional comments. i honstly believe this is a non-issue and that assumptions made here are incrediably mistaken, but don't worry about it, i don't hav much time to do much contributing or reviewing anyhow, and pretty much none for chit-chatting on disagreemnts.

another edit -- and looking quickly back on this talk page, it looks like http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations#User:Lucky102_.26.26_Talk:Milan.2FGA1 was passed when it shouldnt have, i had failed it most recently or at least i think i hav, dont remember, since this is the accurate conclusion, as the last editor said, much of the article wasnt even scoured, "am i missing something?" -- it's for the nom to read the guidelines and realize the basics, not for the reviewers to have to menion every single obvious and tedious point.

moreover just so you understand clearly that this is not onesided (since it seems i have to outline every single thing in this world for fear of every instance of misunderstanding)-- if i was the nom, i would take exactly the same positiion, it's for me to realize tihs isnt ga quality, instead of blaming teh review for not giving a 10page detail law review-like essay. and since i dont haev the time to be checking back on this --that means how you perceive the situation will automatically become popular, even if they're msitaken from the outsider's, and insider's, point of view that you have, nice isnt it?

Waveclaira (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your reviews are not "spectacular", no matter how you feel. They have little to do with the criteria, and some of your suggestions are very odd. If you do not have time to offer a full review or follow up on reviews, so be it, but perhaps you should consider not actually starting them. Further, while it is the job of the nominator to ensure that the article meets the criteria, it is the job of the reviewer to explain why it does not- you can say until you're blue in the face that "it's for to realize tihs isnt ga quality", but if they have nominated the article, they obviously feel that it is. It's then up to the reviewer to explain the issues. If the problems are too numerous to list, then perhaps a general outline explaining the issues and how they may be fixed, rather than a line-by-line analysis, but that would only be for the weakest nominations. On that note, am going to delete these pages to allow a more capable reviewer to take over. J Milburn (talk) 09:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I've left the sugar article, as another reviewer has taken it on. That said, with comments like "Remove all redlinks, either by de-linking them or creating stub articles for them" it's perhaps still not getting the kind of attention it warrants... J Milburn (talk) 09:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a reminder to clean out the "onreview" status and the review page transclusions on the article talk pages when the review pages are deleted. Otherwise, a ghost review appears on the GAN page and these show up as malformed reviews on the daily report. I've just done so for these four. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:UKCities and GAC 3a

In the GAN review of Carr Hill conducted by Malleus Fatuorum, a disagreement arose as to the interpretation of WP:UKCITIES, or, more specifically, an interpretation of the following statement contained within that guideline:

"Articles should almost always conform to the basic structure of a lead/infobox followed by history, government, geography, demography and economy, as those sections contain much of the basic information about any settlement. Beyond that, editors are advised to come to a consensus that works best for the settlement in question. Additional or alternative headings are listed under the "Optional headings" section below."

The disagreement arose regarding the inclusion (or, more specifically, my not having included) a section on 'Religion'. The following exchange took place:

Are the essential sections listed, namely a lead/infobox followed by history, government, geography, demography and economy, accompanied by some optional/discretionary (emphasis added to indicate my interpretation) additional sections enough to satisfy GAC 3a, or are all of the primary sections in WP:UKCITIES 'strictly necessary to meet GA's broadness requirement'? I would welcome the community's views... Meetthefeebles (talk) 17:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, it seems that Meetthefeebles nominated the article and "MF" reviewed it and (apparently after corrective actions were done) awarded the article GA status. It is worth noting that if editor's consider that the GA was awarded in error, then the article can be taken to WP:GAR. Since I've not reviewed the article nor the review, I'm not going to take sides on what appears to be disagreement between the nominator and the reviewer. Compliance with WP:UKCITIES is not a requirement imposed by GA, the relevant requirement is "broadness" (an infobox is not a GA requirement, for instance). Pyrotec (talk) 19:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input Pyrotec. For the avoidance of doubt, the issue I have raised is not related in any way to the 'quality' of the review or anything of that nature. It is, rather, a point of process/interpretation; namely, whether Malleus, I or neither of us is reading the UKCITIES guidance correctly as regards application to c.3 of the GAC. I ask simply so that a. I know whether or not to include specific information in articles I nominate in future and b. That I can conduct GAR correctly myself. Meetthefeebles (talk) 19:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll rephrase my comment. Firstly, I did mean WP:GAR, not WP:GAN - if GA status was awarded in error the re-review process is WP:GAR, not WP:GAN. A Good article is not required to conform to UKCITIES in order to became a GA. Carr Hill is a UK settlement, a suburb, so the reviewer can use UKCITIES as guidance in trying to make a decision as to whether the article meets the broadness requirement of WP:WIAGA, but the reviewer does not have to assess the article against the guidance in UKCITIES. In a disagreement such as this the reviewer is "right" unless he is obviously wrong. MF could (for the sake of argument) have been the nominator and you could have awarded it GA-status based on your interpretation of UKCITIES. Provided the article is of GA-quality and the review is "fit for purpose" it does not really matter what the "correct interpretation" of UKCITIES is (and the reviewer can suggest that an infobox is needed, but can't fail the nomination against the WP:WIAGA if there is no infobox). A biography of a living person should comply with BIO (to avoid problems), and BIO can be used to assess broadness, but full compliance with BIO not a mandatory requirement for GA; and its the same for any other (non-WP:GAN) WP project guidelines. Pyrotec (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

So it is reviewer discretion then? If the reviewer chooses to ignore the guidance in UKCITIES when conducting a review, that is fine. At the other end of the spectrum, if a reviewer decides that, for c.3 of the GA criteria, the guidance has to be followed to the letter, that is also fine. Is that the correct position? Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Whether or not to pass a GAN is always at reviewer discretion. But ignoring WP:CITIES completely does carry a risk that someone may challenge the review at GAR on the grounds that it is insufficiently broad to meet criterion 3a. We also discussed a Public services section you'll recall, which I didn't insist on, as you know. One of the triggering factors for me in this specific case was that the article discussed the local Catholic church and a scandal involving the last priest, which for me led to a very unbalanced "Religion" section (that material wasn't then in a separate section). Malleus Fatuorum 21:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Malleus, its at the reviewer's discretion. Obviously if the reviewer gets it badly wrong, complaints do get made on this talkpage and sometimes an "failed" article gets resubmitted to WP:GAN without any corrective actions or a "passed" article goes to WP:GAR and gets reassessed (or failed). There certainly are articles at GA that deserved their GA-status, but have at best "incompetent reviews". Malleus has done a lot of GANs both as a reviewer and a nominator for far longer than I have and has considerable FAC experience: so as a reviewer his judgement is likely to be sound and backed up with justification(s) - so I would never class them with the "incompetent reviews" that I refer to in this paragraph. Pyrotec (talk) 21:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not for one moment suggesting that the review was incompetent; in fact, it was a very comprehensive and useful review as I said to Malleus at the time and also afterwards on his talk page. I don't wish the discussion to become sidetracked on issues of competency or experience– I am questioning neither in MF's case– nor am I questioning the review itself, which was sound. What I am questioning, however, is the statement that was made by MF regarding UKCITIES as it bears on GAN, namely that: "I believe that it is strictly necessary to meet GA's broadness requirement, as it's one of the primary sections included in WP:UKCITIES." I genuinely do not know whether or not that position is accurate and would like to know if it is because this will influence my own future edits, nominations and reviews. Meetthefeebles (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

There is no requirement at GAN for an article to comply with (non-WP GAN) wikiproject guidelines for Trains, ships, UK cities, Rivers, basket-weaving, football, etc, in order to be awarded GA (or the converse). It only has to comply with WP:WIAGA, but there is further guidance in the "See also" section of that article. However, a reviewer is entitled to say I have concerns over (in this case) the WP:GAN requirement of broadness: ".... I believe that this is missing and I would reasonably expect to find it in a GA-class article on this topic, and here is my justification ....". Furthermore, "MF" seems to be making it clear that he is not reviewing the article against personal preferences (which some reviewers seem to do), but against a set of WP guidelines. I would have concerns if a reviewer wrote words to the effect ".... you need this, it's in the Muckle Flugga article and that is a GA (Note: it's not by the way) so it's also needed in this one ....". I believe that all MF is basically saying is: ".... I believe that this is missing, it aught to be there, and here is my justification ....". An GAN review is also a personal review, another reviewer may well find "different faults" and require different corrective actions, so an article gaining GA might well have subtle changes depending on who reviewed it. Doing a good review is difficult, its not just a case of ticking boxes - MF does not use the boxes template, I often do, but that again is a personal preference, and reveiwing does involve making subjective judgement(s). I'm sorry, but the first paragraph of this section does read a bit like a dispute over what the UKCities guidelines state or intend to state: if that is the disagreement it should be taken to UK Geo, it has nothing to do with WP:GAN or reviewing GANs. Pyrotec (talk) 09:26, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The issue I have then is that there is a very large, inherent contradiction. On the one hand; UKCITIES is not a GA requirement, but, at the same time, a reviewer is entitled to state that a failure to follow it strictly is a ground to fail at GAN. By your presumpiton, what Malleus is saying is that "I believe that this is missing, it ought to be there, and my justification is UKCITIES" but, at the same, time, UKCITIES is not a GAN requirement (which I agree with, by the way). That is rather contrary advice to give to a relative newcomer to GAN like myself; how am I supposed to conduct reviews of nominations if, on the one hand, something is not a GA requirement ergo I could use it as I wish but, on the other, I could fail a review for not satisfying the non-GA requirement? I appreciate that there is a natural subjectivity in the process but that seems very wide to me. And this is a GA issue (in my opinion) because it involves the interpretation and use of guidelines like UKCITIES in conducting a review at GAN with a view to satisfying GAN criteria. To reiterate; the dispute between Malleus and myself took place in the review, which has been concluded and is not in dispute at all. It is this point of interpretation that I am trying to clarify. Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

At this stage I would consider keeping in mind the ultimate purpose of the GA project: improving the encyclopedia. Conformity with WikiProject guidelines is not a GA requirement, and a GA nomination shouldn't be failed on that basis alone. Having said that, I think the nominator ought to make an effort to bring it in conformity with the guidelines simply because that (in theory) ought to make the article better. Time spent discussing the minutiae of whether it should be considered is probably better spent simply improving the article. --Batard0 (talk) 11:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit clash) I consider Meetthefeebles' summary not quite right, or perhaps mostly not quite right! I also agree with Batard0. UKCITIES is "best practice" guidance on writing articles of that type. I also consider it extremely useful advice. What I'm saying is that if someone decides not to follow UKCITIES and misses out "important" information the nomination could (if justified) be put On Hold or failed (reviewer's decision) under the "broadness" requirement of WP:WIAGA, i.e. criteria 3(a), and a helpful reviewer could suggest that the corrective action is to add the missing information as per UKCITIES (but the reason for (eventual?) failure is NOT non-compliance with UKCITIES, it is non-compliance with WP:GAN criteria 3(a) and/or 3(b)). If you review a nomination and fail it for not complying with UKCITIES, then you are not reviewing it against the requirements of WP:WIAGA, and the nominator could take it to WP:GAR: and in such cases the reviewer can and does come under criticism for poor reviews. You could for instance have all the information in the article suggested by UKCITIES, but have the sections arranged in a different order: the reviewer might ask for the sections to be ordered as per UKCITIES but can't fail the nomination for that reason if you decline. I assume that you are UK-based (but that is not important), if you drive in the UK you should follow the Highway Code, if you don't you could (in some circumstances) go to court on charges of alleged careless, dangerous or reckless driving: the charge is not failure to follow the Highway Code, but failure to follow the code can be used as a basis for one or more of those charges. It's somewhat similar with doing GAN reviews: the reviewer is assumed to be familiar with the subject area and (preferably) have access to the references. If you wish to review UKCITIES-type articles then you should have a mental picture of what to expect in the article and it should be relevant to the article, and UKCITIES can also be used. (For example, I live in a village that has one parish church and one former chapel turned into a home, but if I lived in an English city, there could be two cathedral's (C. of E. and Roman Catholic), several parish churches, Mormon, Methodist, Baptist, a Mosque, a Polish church and a Serbian Orthodox church). If I don't have that background knowledge, I should not be reviewing articles of that type, since I can't evaluate the two broadness criteria 3(a) and 3(b). There are reviewer's passing articles with a review such as "Cool, Great, GA, congratulations", but that is not reviewing it's rubber stamping. There are also reviewers reviewing nominations against personal preferences, which is also wrong. There is nothing wrong with a reviewer making suggestions for improving the article, but it should be made clear what are non-mandatory suggestions and what are necessary "corrective actives" needed to obtain GA. Doing a good review is difficult and my view is that people who don't know how to do reviews should not be doing reviews. That I admit is somewhat unhelpful to a new editor, and it is strongly suggested that a potential reviewer should have nomination experience before starting reviews. There is mentoring and that is mentioned somewhere (but it does not seem to be on the WP:GAN page). Pyrotec (talk) 12:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'd like to clarify something I said in the review: "I believe that it is strictly necessary to meet GA's broadness requirement, as it's one of the primary sections included in WP:UKCITIES." By "strictly" I didn't mean to imply that every article on a UK settlement should contain a section for every one of WP:UKCITIES sections for it to meet criterion 3a; what I meant was that by a strict interpretation of WP:UKCITIES it should. And neither did I mean that every article on a UK township must contain those headings, as opposed to that material under whatever headings seem appropriate for the case in hand. Whether or not my own interpretation would have been strict is a matter for speculation, as the review has now closed and the article is listed. I see no reason in principle why a case couldn't be made that there was no need for pretty much any of WP:UKCITIES' sections, but that case would have to be made. For instance, I'd have different expectations of an article on an abandoned or depopulated village than I would of a populated suburb. In the specific case of Carr Hill my position was that the material already in the article covering religion was inadequate, as it only mentioned a closed Catholic church and a scandal involving the last priest, which when compared to the level of detail given in the Demography section stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Basically, I'd say that anyone reviewing an article on a UK settlement should be asking themselves why that article contains no information on one of WP:UKCITIES primary sections (whether that's in a separate section or not), and if its omission is justifiable in that particular case.
  I'm not sure I see what general guidance can be given here other than what's already been given, unsatisfactory as that may be. Having said that, I think that 3a is generally easier to assess, given the existence of guides such as WP:UKCITIES than the prose requirement, 1a. What seems "clear and concise" to one reviewer may seem like the manic scribblings of a deranged moron to another. Malleus Fatuorum 14:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
• Meetthefeebles, it doesn't really matter what UKCITIES says. If a reviewer believes that a section on ==Foo== is necessary to meet the breadth requirement, then it is. A WikiProject WP:Advice page is just a handy shortcut to figuring out what most people thing is necessary to meet that GA requirement. To the extent that it made you believe that compliance with UKCITIES itself was necessary, the comment was perhaps misleadingly expressed, which is unfortunate, but MF was right to insist on whatever content he believed necessary to be "broad in coverage". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed add to FAQ

I propose the following addition, or something like it, to the GAN talk page (i.e. this page) FAQ. I've noticed a couple cases where people have raised concerns with others' reviews and not notified the person whose reviews they're criticizing. It's probably a simple matter of forgetfulness, but I thought perhaps we could have the following in the FAQ:

What if I have concerns about the quality of a review or need to resolve a dispute over the GA process?

You can bring those concerns here for help from other editors. Remember, however, to notify all users about whom concerns have been raised or who are involved in a dispute that you have begun a discussion.

I don't think this should be too controversial. Any thoughts? --Batard0 (talk) 06:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Rschen7754 06:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Seems fine. Malleus Fatuorum 14:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine to me. — ΛΧΣ21™ 22:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"Here" needs to be a specific page name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Since there are no objections, I'll put it in with a link to "here". Edit or revert and discuss if any concerns do arise. --Batard0 (talk) 06:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Transclusion error

Hello,

there is an odd error: Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2‎ and last section of Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky are not the same pages, meaning that the subpage is not correctly transcluded. Could someone fix this please? Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 20:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can work out, Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1 has been transcluded into Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky and Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2 has been added (not transcluded) to Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1. I can't work out what is what, but the solution is to remove Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2 from Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA1 and transclude {{Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky/GA2}} into Talk:Fyodor Dostoyevsky, where it aught to be, but it might need some cleaning up afterwards. Pyrotec (talk) Pyrotec (talk) 21:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. If I did something wrong please correct. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 08:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Non-free images in video game character GANs

There's a dispute over the use of non-free images in my review of Ibuki (Street Fighter). I could just ask for a 3rd opinion on this GAN, but the same nominator has several other waiting GANs with which I have similar concerns. So it would save time in the future if these could be systemically sorted out in one go. Aside from the one linked above:

• Ayane (Dead or Alive) has a poster and an image from a movie, in addition to the main picture, illustrating similar things.
• Mai Shiranui actually has a GIF of the character, illustrating "Mai's famous breasts bounce effect". There are 2 other images in the article, all showing the same costume and so forth. Aside from the GIF not really showing anything new (it's clear from the main picture what this character is about, without the need for motion), as her "sex appeal" is the character's main selling point, I'm tempted to run wild and say the GIF in all its glory impinges the holder's commercial rights.
• Ada Wong only has two images, but illustrating very similar things (same costume again).

There may be more of these concerns (separate images of the same character taken from all of the game, movie and comic; but hopefully no more GIFs) in some of the user's dozen or so character GANs. They look pretty decent otherwise, so I'm willing to review more if I can just get some consensus one way or another on this issue. bridies (talk) 07:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Prince of Persia (1989 video game) has a huge GIF for years now and no one complained on "commercial rights". Morever, I'd say stuff being on Misplaced Pages is a actually rather a form of free advertisement, when it's not negative that is (the card, in a bigger picture, was shared by Bandai in their advertising blog). If anything, the companies can be just asked about their opinions. (Given that such images are routinely used by countless various other websites, and magazines, I don't think they would suddenly disagree to having a free ad here because of their "commercial rights".) --Niemti (talk) 08:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Also Ada's costume in RE2 was actually different ("(same costume again)"). This is the full image: (a badly damaged miniskirt dress with dark tights + bandages). --Niemti (talk) 08:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Whether you think the companies would mind having the images here is irrelevant. While the images are non-free, they must meet the non-free content criteria; importantly, more images are not used if fewer would suffice, and images are not used unless they add significantly to reader understanding. It's quite clear that, for some of these articles, that is not the case. J Milburn (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What if I contact them, would it be "relevant"? And no, SNK never sold, or plans to sell, GIF images. If Bandai planned to sell JPG pictures of this card, they would not publish it (in high-res, which they continue to do, for example this was just released) for everyone to see and save for free (they sell actual cards). And images in Ayane's article were also all released precisely for promotional purposes. Also I hardly plaster these images all over these articles anyway, I'm using only between 1-4 (yes, sometimes just 1, like in Leon S. Kennedy), and I'm using free ones (from Commons) whenever I can (like in Claire Redfield). --Niemti (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

What if I contact them, would it be "relevant"? No, not really. There are two kinds of images; free images, and non-free images. If the images are free, do what you want with them. If they're non-free, they have to meet the NFCC. J Milburn (talk) 14:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And getting back to the Ibuki comic cover and concerns regarding sharing it here, too: this picture, along with dozens of others, was even posted on Omar Dogan's (the UDON artist who drew this series) deviantART account. And in many other websites (absolutely legally). And speaking of which, something like that would be actually better. I just PM-ed Omar, asking about it. --Niemti (talk) 10:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC is not a means of legal defense, though it is structured to hit the main points that come up in the evaluation of US Fair Use law as to, at minimum, assert our images fall within it. But instead, NFC is stricter, to maintain WP's goal of being a free content encyclopedia. We use non-frees only when they are essential for the reader's understanding, and avoid duplication. One nonfree image of a copyrighted character is usually not a problem in articles about that character to show what that character looks like, but subsequent ones need to demonstrate significant content to be of appropriate use. Typically these end up being facets like original art and concept sketches, or an alternate version of the character in another medium, but they aren't always necessary. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I also think just one non-free image of the character per article is the standard. I could maybe see including an image of an actor as the character (e.g. Ayane (Dead or Alive)), but otherwise, I'd say the extra movie posters and card images, and similar, should go. The crucial point is that they don't add anything to the reader's understanding, since we already know what the character looks like. As for the Prince of Persia gameplay image, I think we've generally agreed that one gameplay picture per video game article is okay. —Torchiest _edits 14:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Niemti is referring to the fact that it is an animated (And therefore large) gif. Except here, the game's article specifically calls out to the animation being done via a rotoscoping technique and part of the game's reputation, and even moreso than just a screenshot, serves that purpose as well. It's an example that doesn't apply well to here, though - apples and oranges. --MASEM (t) 14:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Prince of Persia (1989 video game) is a start class article; someone might well complain about it if it were brought to GAN or FAC. But again the point has been missed. The Prince of Persia GIF illustrates at a minimum something that isn't illustrated in the cover art, and arguably something that's difficult to describe in words or even illustrate in a still image. The GIF of whatsherface doesn't show anything not in the main image (same character, same costume) and I would assert that the layman will be familiar enough with the effects of motion and gravity on an ample chest, and that an animation is not necessary. bridies (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

It shows something that "whatsherface" is best know of, which was discussed back then and even remains discussed today nearly 20 years later. It introduced the breasts movement effect to fighting games (something that later became pretty much a defining part of the DOA series), and her boobs move all the time even in the neutral stance when the player does nothing at all (unless in the censored versions, because this was controversial in some places - apparently people in the UK were not allowed to get familiar "with the effects of motion and gravity on an ample chest"). A still image can't properly show this. --Niemti (talk) 15:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

There are no "extra movie posters" there (or any movie posters). I e-mail the companies asking if the use of their images that they released for promotional purposes "impinges their commercial rights" in any way. --Niemti (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

To us, at WP, that doesn't matter at all. The only thing that can change the status of the images is if the company releases them with a license that is compatible with our free ones. --MASEM (t) 15:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

So, "we" are so concerned about the possibility it "impinges the holder's commercial rights" that the actual opinions of holders "doesn't matter at all"? Wow. --Niemti (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Mind you, it's a feel-good jester if we can get them to say that while it's still their copyright, its use on WP is okay (such as with File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg) but that doesn't change how they fit in per NFC policy. The license has to be free for that to be different. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between a promotional scan of a card, when they are selling actual cards, and the photo that is an intellectual property all in itself. All you can with a photo is to see it, but you can't actually play a GIF taken from a video game. "Apples and orange", you know. --Niemti (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

From what I can tell looking at the Ibuki article and Ayane article, each image has an independent fair-use basis for inclusion and the objection that "the character is wearing the same costume" is totally missing the point of their inclusion as well as ignoring basic aesthetics. Using just two or three images in the article would certainly seem to satisfy minimal use. It is not like there is a good chance of finding freely-licensed images depicting the characters, so I don't really see how the articles fail to comply with the NFCC.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This and I actually take adhering to the non-free user rationales seriously. The comic book images have it very liberal, and so I used them in 2 of these articles above, but regular books have it extremly limited, so I never used any for characters or other works. Two examples from my current GA nominations: Taki (Soulcalibur) (where I'd like to use the cover of her Queen's Gate series gamebook, because it's quite empty) and Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth (which would use of the novella The Shadow Over Innsmouth, which it is based on) - but in both cases I couldn't do it, because the rationale for books says that the covers can be only used at the top of the articles and the articles should be about the books themselves. I also try to find promotional images, too, if it's only possible. An alternative for Ada would be her in the film (which was just released), and Ibuki's comic cover would be better replaced by this 2-page panel from Omar's dA (showing the duality of the character). --Niemti (talk) 16:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC does not consider anything with aesthetics and images. Secondly, the same restriction on book covers applies to comic book covers (why would it not apple?). NFC use is supposed to be exceptional, and while we recognize the need to demonstrate what a character looks like and allow one use, all subsequent uses much involve critical commentary and discussion about the character image. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong, and there's nothing theoretical about "why would it not apple". I actually studied the rationales, you know, so I know:

This image is of book cover(s), and the copyright for it is most likely owned either by the artist who created the cover(s) or the publisher of the book(s). It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate an article discussing the book in question on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under the copyright law of the United States. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for more information. Fair use //en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations true

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This tag should only be used for book covers. Please include in your fair use rationale details of the particular edition (publisher, market & year of publication) of the edition you have used, and also acknowledge any cover artist if such artist is acknowledged in that edition's frontmatter. If the book cover is in the public domain (see Misplaced Pages:Public domain), then use the appropriate public domain tag rather than this one. Any of the following may be helpful for stating the rationale: Template:Book rationale, Template:Non-free use rationale book cover, or Template:Manga rationale. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

This image is from a comic strip, webcomic or from the cover or interior of a comic book. The copyright for this image is most likely owned by either the publisher of the comic or the writer(s) and/or artist(s) which produced the comic in question. It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of the cover of a comic book to illustrate: the issue of the comic book in question; the periodical comic book series of which this issue is a part; or the copyrighted comic book character(s) or group(s) on the cover of the issue in question; or the use of low-resolution images of a single panel from a comic strip or an interior page of a comic book to illustrate: the scene or storyline depicted, or the copyrighted character(s) or group(s) depicted on the excerpted panel in question; where no free alternative exists or can be created, on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Comics/copyright for more information. Fair use //en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations true

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This template is only for use with images of comics. Template:Comic cover rationale may be helpful for stating the rationale. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

You can find the 10 differences. Oh, and "at the top of the article" thing was actually about the copyrighted logos (not books). --Niemti (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And about Ayane's film screenshot (official promotional release):

This image is a screenshot from a copyrighted film, and the copyright for it is most likely owned by the studio which produced the film, and possibly also by any actors appearing in the screenshot. It is believed that the use of a limited number of low-resolution screenshots for critical commentary and discussion of the film and its contents on the English-language Misplaced Pages, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under the Copyright law of the United States. Any other uses of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for more information.

To the uploader: Please add a detailed non-free use rationale for each article the image is used in, which must also declare compliance with the other parts of the non-free content criteria, as well as the source of the work and copyright information. For example non-free use rationales, see Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. This is only for images which are screenshots from films. To patrollers and administrators: If this image has an appropriate rationale please append |image has rationale=yes as a parameter to the license template.

The "critical commentary and discussion about the character" is actually needed, and so it's in the caption, and in more detail in the sections "In film" and "Reception". --Niemti (talk) 17:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

These are licenses, not non-free rationales. But even still, the comic book one talks about the character cover use for the issue in question. A character article is not that. --MASEM (t) 17:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, licenses. How is "the copyrighted comic book character(s) or group(s) on the cover of the issue in question" not about Ibuki in Ibuki #1? They can even illustrate "the scene or storyline depicted" - do you think there are Misplaced Pages articles about SCENES in comic books? Or "the copyrighted character(s) or group(s) depicted on the excerpted panel in question" - are there any articles about single panels? Of course not. Get real. --Niemti (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Certain scenes or panels in comics may be the subject of sourced commentary - not necessarily their own article, but within context; that's satisfying NFCC#8. But focus on here: you have a character - primary from video games, but that happens to have a otherwise non-notable comic series. The look of the character from the video game publication to the comic is not much different. Since this article is not about the comic but about the character, the use of the cover needs to be the subject of sourced commentary, and not just used to illustrate "here's what her comic looks like". See WP:NFC#UUI #9. The comic book license would apply appropriate if the comic dedicated to that character was the subject of the article, but that's not the case here. --MASEM (t) 18:21, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And that's why I said, 2 times already (this is the third): that panel (already shared on dA) would make a better illustration as to show something though an illustration (something more than her genki pesonality). And I never said any "here's what her comic looks like", read again what I actually wrote. The license says nothing about "the comic dedicated to that character was the subject of the article" neither, you're just imagining things. And "WP:NFC#UUI #9" pointed nowhere (besides a redirect). You don't even check your won links. --Niemti (talk) 18:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Ibuki Legends.jpg has no appropriate rationale that explains how it meets NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a. "Use in a section" is nowhere close to a proper statement of rationale. How does this image help the user to comprehend the article, and how does its omission harm the comprehension of the article? WP:NFC#UUI #9 is the link I meant to write. --MASEM (t) 18:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

"A magazine or book cover, to illustrate the article on the person whose photograph is on the cover. However, if the cover itself is the subject of sourced discussion in the article, it may be appropriate if placed inline next to the commentary. Similarly, a photo of a copyrighted statue (assuming there is no freedom of panorama in the country where the statue is) can only be used to discuss the statue itself, not the subject of it." Okay, aaaaand... whatever it had to do with anything? --Niemti (talk) 18:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

That's the license, not the rationale. As per the text of all of those licenses you posted, a non-free rationale is still required. That's why it's important to recognize the distinction here, just because the license says it may be okay, you still need to write a rationale for its use. While the image does have a rationale template and most of the fields filled in correctly, you need a statement specifically addressing NFCC#8. The fact that there's little discussion about visual aspects of the cover in the article presently, likely means that you probably won't be able to meet NFCC#8 (we don't just use cover art decoratively). --MASEM (t) 19:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

But really, what this stuff about magazine photographs of persons or photographs of statues had to do with ANYTHING? I didn't get it. At all. --Niemti (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello? --Niemti (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll also say again about how I used a film screenshot for Claire Redfield (which is also a GA nomination), but then replaced it when I found a free alternative, which was the actress photo from a promo event that I found in Misplaced Pages Commons while checking for what they have about Resident Evil (not much, mostly logos). I really do it right.

Also, I just emailed: Bandai, UDON, SNK Playmore and Tecmo Koei, let's see how much they care (and in the meantime you can wonder how the Wikia gets away with even scores of pictures per character, all kinds of them and often high-resultion, while nobody cares about having a free advertisement). --Niemti (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're in a dialog with the relevant creative authors, you should ask if they are willing to formally release limited numbers of images under free licenses that would enable the placement of those images on Commons (emphasize the publicity value of doing so). This would probably need to be formalized via OTRS for the relevant images, and would bypass the need for fair use criteria. Magic♪piano 18:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

This would be highly unlikely, because that would mean them stripping themselves of at least some of copyrights they have. Making something "free" is an entirely different matter than just having them shared in a website, or in a magazine (be it in actual ad paid by them, or in an article by the publishers, in any case they're still the copyrights holders). --Niemti (talk) 18:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

And yet, we do have some companies that release stills and other works to free licenses. It's not an outside chance to try, though we don't expect them to do that, as you say. But that's the only thing that can change an image from non-free to free. Anything else less than that that a company can provide doesn't move the image from being covered under NFC. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Really? Like, for example, what it would be? Anyway, I did point them out to this discussion, so they can do it if they want. But I never planned to "change an image from non-free to free." I'm just using the licenses (of which this for comic covers and panels is by far most liberal), that's all. I didn't create these licenses, you know. I don't uploaded massive numbers of these images, neither. Usually it's 1 or 2 (including these already existing). I also look for free pictures if there are any available, I actively search for promotionally-released images to use, I'm lowering theeir resolution and sometimes cropping them, all the other stuff I should do I do (and what so many other people do not). --Niemti (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Several indie video game developers have allowed us use of their game images as free - they still control the copyright on the overall work and the characters, but the stills are put into free for illustration (See, for example Awesomenauts). I know the chance of a large scale company willing to do that is low, which is why we don't require that type of check, but if you happen to have anything more than just a fan relationship with them, then there's a possibly of getting some free images to use. --MASEM (t) 19:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding my previous post and how I roll: Like, with Yuffie Kisaragi (a GA already) I wanted to post a film screenshot, as she looks entirely different (and yes, there's a critical commentary about it in the article), but I couldn't find anything good enough enough online - and I have this principle that every file should be sourced to a website (I see so many pictures where they just write something to the effect of "promotional image" as a source while posting HUGE hi-res images, like this one today, and they get away with it - I know because I was asking for such images to be deleted, but to no avail). I really know what I'm doing and I do it right. --Niemti (talk) 19:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

NFC sourcing does not require being sourced to a website, only enough information that we can validate the original publication. A user-taken screenshot of a film is completely fine as long as its explained in the source where it can be re-validated. (eg "A shot from around 30 min into the film"). Large size images can be tagged {{non-free reduce}} to mark them for reduction. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Generally, I would say cover art for a work discussed in the article easily satisfies NFCC#8. I did notice that an RfC was initiated on the matter at the NFCC talk page where discussion was generally favorable towards allowing cover art in any articles where the work is discussed, but was used to make a change saying it was only allowed on articles about the work. Upon noticing that I restored the previous wording of NFCC.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that added footnote was from a recent discussion. Note: the list in WP:NFCI is not exclusive meaning that what is listed is not the only acceptable use of cover art, just that the only clear allowance for cover art is on articles about the work the cover represents. Any other use requires demonstration of all NFCC points. Ergo, just because a work is mentioned in an article (that is otherwise not about the work) does not give us allowance to use its cover, though if there is critical commentary about the cover, then there cause. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Masem is correct- This is the way it has been for many years. Devil's Advocate, merely discussing a work does not magically mean that the cover art of that work is suddenly significant. Equally, merely discussing a person does not mean we need a non-free image of their face or discussing a company does not mean that we need a non-free logo of the company. J Milburn (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I get that neither of you really like any non-free cover art being included without the art itself being the subject of critical commentary and only begrudgingly accepted it for articles on the works themselves, but consensus and the wording of the NFCC does not seem to support that position even in these cases. You are appealing to a consensus view that does not appear to exist.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're talking to me there, but I have no idea why you believe that I "only begrudgingly accepted it for articles on the works themselves". You're putting words into my mouth, which is not fair. Again, there is a strong consensus in favour of the NFCC, including NFCC#8, and common sense dictates that discussing a work (say, an album) in a related article (say, about a singer) does not automatically mean that the related article is going to be significantly worse-off without the cover of the work. That's what NFCC#8 requires. This isn't as complicated as you're trying to make it. J Milburn (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

We're not discussing persons nor companies. ("Apples and oranges", pineapples or hand grenades.) Anyway, would it be cool-er for you two to use this spead showing the dichotomy of the character? --Niemti (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Non-free images are supposed to be exceptional. That's the requirement by the Foundation, and is not up to consensus. And you need to get your head out of trying to read between the lines and wikilawyer it - it is the principles behind NFC that are being pointed out. Okay, so you're talking about a video game character and we're making references to people and companies. The same logic must apply to both, and as noted, the lists on WP:NFC are not fully exclusive, and ergo we have to consider how the logic behind them extends to other types of works. So if we don't allow covers of magazines to be used to just illustrate articles on the people themselves, the same applies to fictional characters, unless there is something exceptional about that cover that has critical commentary in the article. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)