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Revision as of 06:04, 7 May 2006

--Rjensen 23:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC) Changed: Media:04 Iron Man.mp3 Irish Americans currently make up roughly 10% of all Americans. to Those who claim to be Irish Americans currently make up roughly 10% of all Americans.

Often those with a mixed heritage chose the identity of their nearest kith and kin. An individual might be 1/4 Irish and 3/4 other European extraction but chose the Irish identity. 80.255.219.52 12:29, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

definition of Irish-American? - does this mean Irish American is defined as having at least one grandparent born in Ireland? or is the definition that the 10% of US citizens who claim to be Irish Americans have one ancestor at some point in history born in Ireland? (MarkG)

Yes but the 10% is referrering to First Ancestry. That's 50% or more Irish. Any Irish ancestry claimed is higher than 10%.

As of 2006 some but not too many Americans have a grandparent born in Ireland. (Most of the immigration came over 130 years ago.) The Census ancestry question is not spelled out as to what it means; anyone can use any definition or identification they want. Thanks to Catholic schools, there has been a very heavy degree of intermarriage since 1920. Rjensen 11:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"There are more Irish people in New York City than in Dublin, Ireland." No there aren't. There may be some vast number of Irish-Americans, but there are not very many Irish people. Here's a fine (?) Irish-American newspaper that will explain how an Irish-American person can become an Irish one. But only until the end of 2005. http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=16052 Angusmclellan 20:34, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Re: the large number of Americans of both Irish and Italian descent: I don't think it has to do with any Mafia or IRA stigma as much as the fact that both groups are Catholic and both groups are very large in the Northeast USA.

scholarship explodes myths; encyclopedia should not hide facts

6/29/05 RJensen: we need a discussion about "racism" here. The so-called "racist" link one person objected to is to a major scholarly article that shows --among many other points--that Protestants were not hostile (or "racist") toward the Irish. To remove the link to a standard scholarly source (a leading professional history journal, no less) makes a travesty of an encyclopedia. The article (which I wrote) is thoroughly documented with the latest scholarship and has been reviewed by dozens of college professors (many of them Irish themselves).

Maybe some Irishmen believe in old myths; that is fine...but they should not try to keep the facts away from Encyclopedia users. Maybe they cannot handle the scholarly argument that they were not vicitimized in America (they were indeed victimized in the UK). If someone still believes that urban myth after reading http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm they might try finding some scholarship that supports their position and we can have a debate. (There is no such scholarship by the way!)

Better to let our readers find links to solid scholarship. I have removed links to sites that offer little on nothing of value to the user of an encyclopedia.

Richard Jensen (PhD and professor of history)

So let's say that there were no NINA signs, this in no way proves that the Irish were welcomed with open arms like you would have us believe. You have the nerve to say that Protestants didn't treat Irish Catholic immigrants as inferiors?? Sure they let the Irish do those dirty jobs that they wouldn't do, why wouldn't they? How do you conclude from this fact that they were treated as equals?

Barbarossa

You are a racist. The encyclopedia should not promote racism. You are a racist for trying so hard to put this in the encyclopedia and you are proof that racism still exists today towards Irish-Americans. preceding unsigned comment by User:64.109.253.204.

Racism against the Irish immigrants probably didn't exist in America to the same extent as it did in Britain, but it would be naive to say there was none. Prejudgice against strangers is unfortunately part of human nature and the remains of anti-Irishism in popular American culture can still be seen. As a regular visitor to the US, I still experience some prejudgice, most of which is not meant to be offensive. There is still this view held that Ireland is a backwards, uneducated island of self-subsistant farmer. I realise these attitudes arise from ignorance and the "green" tinted glasses of some Irish-Americans. In fact, my friends and I have got used to playing to these stereotypes and watching the reaction of our new American friends as we reveal our true backgrounds! (I for example have a PhD in chemistry and am from an urban area on the west-coast of Ireland).

Anon.

Paragraph 6 is offensive! States no proof of signs being hung but that academic paper states they found 2 instances in the NYT classifieds, If 2 classifieds were found, to believe not one single sign was hung on a window is ridiculous no I mean stupid and offensive. Not to argue with Jensen’s paper but you can site David Duke and many anti Holocaust papers so what’s your point. Also as common sense it happened in Canada but we were spared? Come on! To say it was maybe anti catholic not anti Irish, you want to split hairs. How about the cartoons of the day characterizing the Irish with monkey attributes? The caring concerned Protestants (sited in Jensen’s article) building factory’s for the Irish to work in and hiring Irish women as domestic help as some kind of proof against discrimination is way off. I want to go to the slavery section and see how your twisted mind glorifies that! I guess the Irish were lucky to be able to build the railroad with the Chinese and compete with the Negro’s for jobs. This section needs a big RED FLAG!!! In closing when this encyclopedia starts saying the Holocaust never happened and slavery helped the blacks that is when it looses all credibility not just most!

One paper is not scholarship!! You stupid ignorant fools!!

• • The paper involved appeared in the leading scholarly journal after dozens of specialists--mosty of them Irish--worked over it. If you're really interested you might read a few of the 50+ scholarly studies it cites, or look at the primary sources on the www to which it links. Fact is there were no signs in USA--just a song about the signs. Computerized searching allows anyone to look through tens of thousands of pages of help-wanted ads looking for "NINA" (and related terms). Do they exist? many in London and some in Canada, and a couple in USA. The odds of a jobseeker seeing a NINA ad were one in a million. That's rare. As for the mills, you might read some of the dozens of books that study the mills. Start with Hareven on Amoskeag. Cartoons sometimes ridiculed Irish--and indeed, Germans and Yankees and Southerners and blacks and Chinese -- mostly the cartoonists ridiculed presidents and governors and senators. (Proof: go to ebay and search for PUCK CARTOONS ) The Irish=monkeys was a London cartoonist, by the way. Did the Yankees build factories for the Irish & French-Canadians--yes they did. That does suggest they were willing to hire them. Rjensen 23:19, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• Not much in this article about Irish-American racism against the English, and support for terrorism in Northern Ireland and Britain for three decades. Irish America paid for bullets and bombs that killed thousands and injured tens of thousands - a fact quietly forgotten by America post-911. When innocent people were murdered on the streets of Belfast, Londonderry, London, Manchester and countless other places in the UK, many an "Irish-American" let out a hearty cheer and dropped their coins into Noraid's collection tins. War on terror my a**. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.246.110 (talk • contribs)

Don't be daft! Only a VERY small/miniscule section of the Irish community in the US gave funds to the IRA. Are we going to have a whole section about the KKK on the Protestant article? Superdude99 12:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Wah--Looper5920 01:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's not confuse racism with xenophobia. Xenophobia is a fear of foriegn nationals; racism is hate toward a racial group such as blacks or asians. Most Irish-Americans who support/supported the efforts of revolutionaries in Northern Ireland are not RACIST toward the English. There's a difference between arbitrarily hating an ethnic group and being upset with a political situation. Whether you view Irish nationals as terrorists or revolutionaries is fairly subjective.

Assuming you were trying to say "nationalists" rather than "nationals", and assuming you were referring to the IRA as the original poster was.... well done for so neatly backing up their point, whoever you are. Sure, it's "subjective", but you could say the same thing about Al-Qaeda. Innocent people getting murdered to make a political point is terrorism, however worthy the point and whatever race or nationality the victims. And am I right in thinking you're suggesting anti-English sentiment is "merely" xenophobia, while anti-Irish equals racism?

Thanks for getting my argument completely backwards. I wasn't justifying anyone's sentiments about anything. First of all, I was saying that paranoia concerning Irish immigrants was xenophobia, not racism. The same goes for Irish who might arbitrarily malign British people. However, in the case of the IRA, I would say their anger has far less to do with the fact that British people are British, and far more to do with what the British nation has done to Ireland. It doesn't matter whether you agree with their methods, the only point I'm making is that it isn't racism, but more socio-political.

Revert war

I have requested that this page be protected to deal with the constant reverting between Lapsed Pacifist and 64.109.253.204. Deltabeignet 18:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

How many Irish Catholics/Protestant?

"More than 5% of all Americans are Irish Protestant, and a little less than 5% of all Americans are Irish Catholic.": says Andrew Greeley, the leading expert. (Encyclopedia of the Irish in America p1). Greeley is a famous sociologist and expert demographer (as well as being a priest and novelist.) I have added a comprehensive scholarly bibliography. Rjensen 02:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Bibliography

A serious article needs a serious bibliography, which I have provided. The scholars themselves write on either the Catholics or the Protestants and so it should be divided that way for the convenience of the Wiki users. Rjensen 21:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Discrimination and Prejudice

The second paragraph, that hass been re-added, needs to be cited by a legt source within the next couple of days else it be reomoved. It has to be one of the worst POV i have yet to see, becides that i seriously doubt that any legit sociologist or irish history scholar would make such broad and subjective statements. Whiter then white, was is that supposed to mean, "discrimination and prejudice they encountered" yes their were portions of this ethnic group that did endure that that can not be said for all of them, espically in a way to say that they are denial of it, once agin, was is that supposed to mean. Basically in other words the paragraph is tripe. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Fraud

It is a fact that many white Americans claim Irish ancestry either fraudulently, misguidedly (“my name is Irish” or "I'm white and Catholic"), or simply because they are either reluctant to align themselves with Britain (or more specifically, England) in a national culture that celebrates romantic notions of Irish-Americanism excessively (Hollywood and the media; major east coast cities) or they wish to adopt the strong cultural identity associated with Irish-America. On arrival at Castle Clinton and later Ellis Island, many white Europeans - including from Britain - took Irish surnames and some even converted to the Catholic faith. Indeed, the Jewish paternal grandfather of one Senator John Kerry (what a good Irish name) did precisely that. 86.17.246.110 00:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• • It must be a fact if you said so, right? I hate to break your bubble but there is no Anti-English/British sentiment amongst most Americans. You will find it amongst some Irish-Americans particularly on the east coast but that is a very small percentage. The line about "I'm white and Catholic" is bunk as well. Can't say I've heard it once. Believe it or not most Americans actually know their ethnic backgrounds. Somehow we found time to remeber them in between trips to McDonalds and listening to country music. John Kerry's grandfather is not the rule but one well known example. Most people who had their names changed ended up with a bastardized form of what they had before (e.g. Santarelli --> Santos). I am sure there were more Smiths, Jones' and Johnsons given out at Ellis Island then there were O'Sullivans, McGillicuddys and Murphys. As for the line about "reluctant to align themselves with Britain (or more specifically, England) in a national culture that celebrates romantic notions of Irish-Americanism excessively". What is this based on? Your profound understanding of American culture garnered from watching TV. While Americans may be ignorant of the rest of the world they are always willing to admit it. Unfortunately the rest of the world all think they are experts on the US because they see alot of our TV shows and movies. I think this is a good case in point. I will be anxiously waiting for your next rant on why cricket is far superior to baseball, why doesn't the US get on board with the metric system or don't call it soccer its football.--Looper5920 02:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • You assume (i.e. decide for yourself with no real evidence) too much in accusing me of making things up. What's my opinion based on? The fact that I was born in the UK to an Irish-American father from whom I learned much and spent several periods in New York over the past 20 years visiting relatives. As for your first point, I never said "most Americans": you did. It is clear from my post that I said many (i.e. not most) IRISH Americans are anti-English (you seem to agree on the fact, if not the numbers, so what's your problem?). And finally, why would I "rant" about how a British sport is better than a US one? What the hell are you talking about? You're the one ranting and raving because someone has posted something you do not agree with, and then claiming I have a superiority complex. What a deranged and paranoid fool you appear to be. 86.17.246.110 02:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC) PS Something is bunk because you've not heard it? Is any more evidence required to show you to be the arrogant one here?

PPS Just clicked on the link to your user page. Your reply makes perfect sense now (especially the childish metric system/"soccer" rant).....

I am 3/4 Irish 1/4 Italinan and was raised in a very working class Irish neighborhood. The only thing that bothers me about being Irish is the exaderation of the Irish in America. The demographics of Irish is definitly atleast alittle exaderated. Many people claim to from Irish decent in America because the Irish hold thier ancestery with such pride, because of struggle and fight against opprestion and discrimination. I never hear anyone claim to be British, i feel alot of them claim to be irish instead. This bothers me because it makes the Irish identity that my ancestors have passed down worthless. Plese stop claiming that Irish if your not. Its not like im going to say you oppressed my people or anything, I just feel it steals a part of me that makes me me.

Scotch-Irish or Scots-Irish

This might start a revert war...but I changed "Scots-Irish" to "Scotch-Irish". In the United States (which this article is about), the latter term is more commonly used, including by people of "Scotch-Irish" descent themselves. Even a Google search gives 6,100,000 hits for "Scotch Irish" and only 382,000 hits for "Scots Irish".--JW1805 (Talk) 22:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Major Irish American communities break out

This section is getting a bit long and breaks up the page to much. Might be about the time where it gets cut out, turned into it's own page and what's on this page is a mention of Irish neighborhoods in the States, how they came to be with a link to the new page. Interested to hear thoughts.--Looper5920 05:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

excellent idea. It would then be possible to have historical material on those communities as well as suggested readings & photos. Rjensen 05:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "major" needs to be in the title though. Irish-American communities should be sufficient--Looper5920 06:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

No Irish Need Apply/Irish Need Not Apply?

Upon close reading that paragraph regarding the supposedly fictitious bias against the Irish, I think it may have limited itself excessively to get the results it wanted. I own a sign I bought in New York saying "Irish Need Not Apply", and I believe that was the most common wording of the phrase as used by business. Now, I must say that I'm open to the fact that it could be true that no such prejudice existed, but I'd just like to mention that it is possible the study itself was too narrow and, therefore, flawed.

check the sign you bought. if it says in small print something like Boston Sign Company Sept 11 1915, then you have a fake. You can run all the variations and get the same results re want ads: near zero of them in US (you get them in England and canada though). Rjensen 03:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Richard Jensen, even though you don't believe no irish need apply signs were ever around, it's obvious that if you were hiring in that time, you would put up a "No Irish Need Apply" sign. 75.3.4.54 04:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually I married into an Irish Catholic family and just last week was listening to an elderly uncle-in-law talk about the old days (1930s). Signs? no signs, only a song. Rjensen 04:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

POV

I tagged the NINA section as being pov, thoigh it is more bised then POV. It is slanted towards the pov of of one usere, though that while he has written a research paper on, he basiclay uses it as noting more then a spring board disprove the idea and direct users to his research on the subject. The user has slo constantly reverted changes to his wording that would possibly de-pov the current stsement, including the remove of a pov tag that i placed, in perferencr of his pov/promotion of his research paper. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

User rjensen (me!) cites a paper that was published in a scholarly journal after being reviewed by over a dozen scholars (most of them Irish. The paper is online and should be read. Two original sources (illustrations) are included. The statement discusses what happened 150 years ago and presents no POV one way or the other. Rjensen 07:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I do, it's a call to tone down the promotion of your research in this article. And expect that every time you remove the tag, as long as the section continues to be biased, it will just be reincerted. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 08:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Solid Research or flippant self promotion?

Someone has complained that I cited my own scholarly article in the Journal of Social History--it is a well-known peer reviewed journal. The article was reviewed by about 20 specialists in ethnic and Irish-American history. Citing it follows the Wiki Guidelines:

If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Misplaced Pages, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet, and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner.

The article is online and has links to many original sources dealing with 19th century Irish American history.. I hope people find it useful. If they find it provocative--well, the Irish have long been known for being provocative. Rjensen 06:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

If you simply want your essay cited as a source of information, add it to the links at the bottom of the article. Misplaced Pages is not a place to espouse your particular controversial views, they are a place for general information. Your section is out of place unless it presents both for and against arguments about the subject of discrimination against Irish-Americans. Xombie 23:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The section does explain the social condition of the Irish-- there are other articles on the Know Nothings, Orange, APA, ant-RC, etc that explore their opponents. Are the Irish controversial? well yes indeed they are. That's not a good reason for deleting the whole article. Rjensen 23:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I edited the article so that your research was mentioned. However, there is no good reason to give undue weight to your personal research unless you are of some particular prominence. -- Xombie 23:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

the article in question is the most thorough coverage of the topic. It has not been called into question in the history journals. How much prominence would you like? (try this: for 10 years I have been coeditor of H-ETHNIC, the main discussion group among 1500 scholars for the study of ethnicity and immigration. See http://www.h-net.org/~ethnic/ Rjensen 23:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it is thorough. You do not get carte blanche to write whatever you want just because you wrote somewhere else about it. Read the section of NPOV rules on "Undue weight". Your study does not have enough prominence to be granted such a large section of the article. When a subject is controversial, the views must be proportionally represented. Not to mention the NPOV problems of referencing one's self. -- Xombie 00:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Xombie says there are other views that ought to be represented. OK, he can add them--that's a better idea than removing scholarship he dislikes. Be sure to have high quality scholarly sources. Rjensen 00:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

If your edits do not conform to NPOV, they will be recognized as such and edited. -- Xombie 03:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

How do Irish Catholics vote?

We have exit polls for Irish Catholic voters in Presidential elections, in large states. See George Martin, The American Catholic Voter (2004) for data. For example in 1980 Reagan (who won 51% of the national vote) won 53% among Irish-Catholics in New York state, 64% in California, and 65% in Texas. Kerry (who is Catholic) lost the Irish Catholic vote in 2004 to Bush (who is Methodist). I have seen only a few polls for state races, for example in 1998 when D'Amato (R) lost his senate seat in New York, D'Amato carried 66% of the Italian vote and 63% of the Irish Catholic vote. If someone has more polls for statewide races please share them. Also of value is Prendergast, William B. The Catholic Voter in American Politics: The Passing of the Democratic Monolith (1999), which has many pages on the Irish, and emphasizes that they are split 50-50, with the more religiously devout being more Republican. Rjensen 23:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

California, Texas? Those people weren't Irish Catholics. They might have had some Irish ancestry, but they weren't true Irish Catholics for the most part. You have no information on whether these polls were conducted to people 100% Irish or how many people. You also are talking about Texas, with a very small Irish Catholic population, which means most of the people polled were not actually Irish Catholic.

You are also talking about presidential elections which are different from local politics.

And why do you want to mention Ed Gillespie and not the so many more Irish that have been chairman of the DNC?

Get polls from Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore of people that are 100% Irish Catholic. Trust me, the Irish Catholics in Baltimore didn't split 50-50 when voting for Martin O'Malley.

Also many of the pro life leaders in the Democratic party are Irish Catholic. Why don't you want to mention that or any of this?

Get your klan shit out of wikipedia.75.3.4.54 04:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

We have Anon here who denies the multiple exit polls and two sacholarly sources about presidential elections. Who would trust him-- he has NO SOURCES whatever for any city or state. He claims that many Irish in Boston vote Democratic. I'm sure they do, but somebody voted for four Republican governors in a row in that state (currently Romney). As for Ed Gillespie he's Irish Catholic from the Boston area who rose to GOP national chairman. (The Democratic counterpart is a Yankee from Vermont.) Rjensen 04:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

For once i have to agree, if the anany want to proficde a source for his disagreement i have no problem, other wise i would discount his argument, since he seems to think that your not IC if your not a Dem or live in along the North Atlantic coast. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)