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Talk:Boris Malagurski, Talk:The Weight of Chains

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Boris Malagurski (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• Talk:The Weight of Chains (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• UrbanVillager (talk · contribs)
• PRODUCER (talk · contribs)
• Opbeith (talk · contribs)
• Bobrayner (talk · contribs)
• WhiteWriter (talk · contribs)
• Psychonaut (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The two articles in question have been the source of a dispute for the past few months, as there are a few Misplaced Pages editors who seem to have personal or ideological issues with Boris Malagurski and his film The Weight of Chains, and are trying to add sources that are either blogs banned from Misplaced Pages, other self-published blogs and unreliable websites that use slander and lies, or unchecked facts at best, in violation of WP:SOURCE even YouTube videos in violation of WP:COPYEDIT.

Whenever I called for respect of Misplaced Pages guidelines, many of them attacked me personally and even claimed that I'm Boris Malagurski or paid by him. This is starting to get very frustrating, because they keep repeating the same points over and over again, completely ignoring my arguments that their sources are not reliable enough for Misplaced Pages.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've tried to explain that self-published blogs are not accepted here, that YouTube videos of news broadcasts posted on YouTube by a user other than the official broadcaster is in violation on WP:YOUTUBE, that a film is produced by a production company and not every individual or organization that donates money towards the production of the film, that E-novine is a self-published online blog site presenting itself as a news source, that copy/pastes blog posts from the web.

How do you think we can help?

I have no interest in there not being any criticism of the topics that are dealt with in the articles, but I only support criticism that is available via reliable sources. I'm curious if you think srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com, bosniangenocide.wordpress.com, zijadburgic.com, e-novine.com (which copy/pasted a blog post about this topic from zijadburgic.com), politicsrespun.org, are verifiable enough to be the core critique of these topics, and what you'd suggest to end this dispute.

Opening comments by PRODUCER

UrbanVillager's "concern" for copyrighted material is really just an illusion. While criticizing others for copyright infringing material for one Youtube link he deemed it appropriate to personally and hypocritically place copyright violating nine links himself. At the Boris Malagurski talkpage, red herrings were abundant. Whether it's the article of the founder of E-novine not being up to par for UrbanVillager or a youtube video of Burgic irking him there are no limits to the nonsense. When a consensus was formed at the Weight of Chains article to include information regarding financial backing and done in compliance with film MOS, UrbanVillager continued to act as a gatekeeper whose sole approval is what's important and has now found it necessary to file the dispute resolution. UrbanVillager's sudden stringent concern for the reliability of sources is exclusive to sources that he personally dislikes and to which his opinion does not form to. Numerous tabloids, web portals, and blogs are cited at the Boris Malagurski article and were included at the initiative of UrbanVillager. The double standard applied by him and promotional tone set in the article is very clear. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 15:01, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Opbeith

(Text is disjointed as remarks alleged to be defamatory about Boris Malagurski, including reference to Misplaced Pages history, have been deleted without indication.)Opbeith (talk) 20:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

The subject Boris Malagurski, producer of The Weight of Chains film, before these were released and even at the "development" and pre-production stages, they were being promoted on Misplaced Pages by various editors, notably Cinema C and UrbanVillager. Without robust evidence of his and his work's merit/notability, references to Malagurski's work have been inserted into and in some cases more forcefully promoted across a wide range of articles. The editors concerned resisted efforts to moderate this.

A group of Misplaced Pages editors have been able to draw on favourable publicity in notionally reliable sources while rejecting criticism that his work does not seem to have been notable enough to attract objective reviews that could be cited in a balanced article. I have found it a very frustrating experience watching the inflation of the Malagurski family of articles and dealing with the resolute opposition of the editors led by UrbanVillager. I have also found the apparent blind eye that these efforts to promote someone have enjoyed surprising. I'm not patient with manipulation and has certainly led me to be less than courteous than I would have been in more genuine circumstances, I do acknowledge that.

I have had an uncongenial relationship for a long time with User:Psychonaut. While I understand that he would not feel disposed to enter into discussion with me, he has not been directly involved in this issue and I was surprised that he stepped into the dispute to offer such forceful advice to UrbanVillager apparently unsolicited. Opbeith (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Bobrayner

There has long been a problem with promotional editing, and highly selective application of[REDACTED] rules, on articles about Boris Malagurski and his films. "Boris Malagurski" has a talent for self-promotion, and his articles have been dominated by socks of Bormalagurski (talk · contribs). UrbanVillager indulges in the same promotional editing, and the same highly selective application of[REDACTED] rules. For instance, the flakiest of sources are used if they look good for Malagurski; but if they say something bad about Malagurski, UrbanVillager is swift to remove them. UrbanVillager removes copyvio if it's criticism of Malagurski, keeps it if it's praise. And so on. The promotional editing has happened over and over again. It's difficult to see how we could have neutral content on the Malagurskiverse, as long as UrbanVillager and other Malagurski sockpuppets/meatpuppets continue editing these articles. Meanwhile, UrbanVillager suggests that a "prominent filmmaker" would be too busy to edit[REDACTED] so Bormalagurski is a completely unconnected person who just likes editing an article about their namesake - no COI there! This is just one of many examples of tendentious editing. I am wary of investing lots of time digging up diffs again, but would be happy to provide a lot more detail if there is a chance that this discussion could lead to a solution to the problem that I have described above. bobrayner (talk) 21:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Although I agree with much of what Pincrete says, this is not wholly accurate: "BobRayner's recent edits have all been minor and constructive and have largely been accepted."

In reality, UrbanVillager has reverted a number of my edits - and other people's edits - as vandalism despite repeated warnings about WP:NOTVAND. For instance, . Previous Bormalagurski socks had the same habit. bobrayner (talk) 22:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by WhiteWriter

Opening comments by Psychonaut

I'm not directly involved in this dispute as I've edited neither article nor their respective talk pages. My participation has been limited to advising User:UrbanVillager on his talk page to disengage from another editor whose objections I believed to be disingenuous and unsupported by policy, and to investigating some COI and copyright issues at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Boris Malagurski. I have never stated my opinions on the text of the articles in dispute, nor has anyone even asked me what those may be.

Regarding the sourcing issues, I can only repeat what I posted at WP:COIN: It's a settled matter on English Misplaced Pages that User:Bosniak's Srebrenica Genocide Blog is not a reliable source. Bosniak was banned in part for spamming links to it in Misplaced Pages articles, and it's been on the spam blacklist for some time now. Other blogs aren't usually considered reliable sources according to our policies. Whether or not the E-novine article can be used as a source is not at all clear-cut; in general it seems that the site may be a reliable source, but in this particular case it simply reproduced a blog post, so there are arguments both for and against its inclusion here. Indeed, UrbanVillager and User:Joy both advanced such arguments on the article talk pages. As this is a general issue it would be helpful if the discussion could be continued with participation of disinterested parties at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. —Psychonaut (talk) 19:40, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Boris Malagurski, Talk:The Weight of Chains discussion

Though I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN, I'm not "taking" this listing, but am only dropping in to note that the E-novine source mentioned above is now the subject of an inquiry at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and that aspect of this request ought to probably be on hold until that discussion is resolved. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

There seem to be three discussions happening right now, in addition to the article Talk pages:

1. This DRN case
2. A conflict-of-interest (COI) issue: Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Boris_Malagurski
3. A reliable sources (RS) issue: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#E-novine_on_Boris_Malagurski (mentioned by TransporterMan above)

All three are dispute resolution forums within the WP Dispute resolution process umbrella. Multiple simultaneous DR discussions should be avoided. The DRN case should probably be suspended until the more focused RS & COI discussions conclude (the RS noticeboard has RS experts, whereas DRN may not). This issue may end up here at DRN, but until the COI and RS discussions finish, it seems too chaotic to have 3 forum discussions happening simultaneously. --Noleander (talk) 15:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

There is news regarding the COI issue and RS issue:

1. On Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Boris_Malagurski, User:Psychonaut concluded that: "The evidence has boiled down to this: has focussed his edits on Serbian topics in general and Malagurski in particular, and is the most frequent contributor to the Boris Malagurski and The Weight of Chains articles, with differences of opinion as to what information or sources should be used in the article. In my opinion these facts alone are not sufficient to establish that a conflict of interest exists, as similar observations could be made for thousands of other disinterested editors who focus on a topic area of interest to them."
2. On Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#E-novine_on_Boris_Malagurski, User:TimidGuy agreed that the disputed source "doesn't sound like the sort of source that we should be using".

I believe the focus should shift to the discussion here, and sincerely hope for a resolution to this dispute. --UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

As this dispute is no where near finished and no one seems to be giving it any attention, I'd like to share some things that I already wrote to User:Psychonaut:

I believe that User:Opbeith, User:PRODUCER, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner, have as their only purpose, regarding the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles, to do any or all of the following:

1. Promoting the addition of slander to the article, using as references Internet forums, blogs and fishy websites that, among other things, photoshop a "BIA" badge, trying to prove that Malagurski works for Serbia's Security Information Agency, on an original photo where there is no badge; or call Malagurski an unemployed Vancouver-based amateur "film director", apologist for Serbian Nazi-collaborating Chetniks and a racist genocide denier (this article is the disputed one carried by E-novine); while, at the same time dismissing actual relevant reliable media sources as "tabloids", including Politika, the oldest daily newspaper in the Balkans.

1. Clogging the talk pages with discussions on just how much Malagurski's work is crap, how horrible the people he interviewed are , how Malagurski is just an outright extremist , and much more.
2. Not allowing any good-faith discussion to proceed without personal attacks.
3. Personally attacking anyone who disagrees that Malagurski is exactly who they say he is. Accusing me of not allowing the addition of any sources that don't have a positive outlook on Malagurski, which is not true. I agreed to the addition of a Croatian link that described Malagurski's film as "too pro-Serbian". I've also stated several times that I have no personal interest in there not being any criticism of Malagurski and his work, as I believe (and I think Misplaced Pages does as well) that well-sourced criticism is very healthy for any article, but only if it's truly - well-sourced.
4. Removing sourced material (, etc.), promoting the idea that any source that has a neutral or positive attitude towards the topic is all part of Malagurski's "self-promoting machinery", and adding irrelevant poorly-sourced material (, , etc.) that constitutes original research and POV pushing.
5. Promoting the deletion of these articles. PRODUCER nominated "Kosovo: Can You Imagine?" for deletion, again claiming that the sources that support the notability of the article are tabloids. When I noted that, for example, Večernje novosti is a renowned Serbian newspaper and news source which exists for almost 60 years now, also the leading Serbian book publisher, with over 5 million books on diverse cultural topics sold, 159 titles including books by Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Proust, Bulgakov, Nabokov, Faulkner, Orwell, Kafka, Sabato, Andric, Crnjanski, Selimovic, etc., PRODUCER went on to change the Večernje novosti article so that it says it's a "tabloid", without adding a source. Genius.

This looks like a very well-coordinated attack mechanism aimed at slowly destroying the Malagurski article and all articles related to it. I could provide more references to back up these claims, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd just add that I checked with the sources noticeboard, one editor commented agreeing with me that the absurd E-novine was not the kind of source we should use on Misplaced Pages . Naturally, Producer jumped to defend the source, even calling User:Joy to lend his support. All these editors seem to not have any good faith when it comes to the articles in question - almost every single edit they made was motivated by any one of the points that I listed. --UrbanVillager (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Arguing that a diverse range of independent editors are part of a conspiracy to slander a minor film-maker - who is the focus of virtually all your editing - doesn't help solve the problem. It just shows how serious the problem is. bobrayner (talk) 14:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:The Weight of Chains discussion user Pincrete

I have been involved in the talk/editing process at W. of C. for the last month and was drawn into being an editor precisely because I felt this Misplaced Pages article was woefully inadequate and amounted to a 'press-release' for the film.

UrbanVillager is being wholly disingenuous in his account above, neither Opbeith nor Bob Rayner have attempted to insert any material from blogs. What Opbeith did, (which I supported on the talk page) was to use the 'summary' elements from 3 reviews as a basis for discussion on the talk page. Since this is a long film with many contentious arguments and claims, I personally welcomed these summaries and found them a useful 'starting line' from which to assess what the important arguments in the film were and how those arguments should be expressed in the article (where appropriate linking to Misplaced Pages pages which cover the 'mainstream' accounts of the events). UrbanVillager attempted to stifle all such discussion on the talk page, and now that has failed, he has taken the matter to DRN.

In fact I have just checked the edit history for the W.o.C. page, the last edit that Opbeith made there was on May 22nd last year, in which he questioned the 'official selection' status of this film at a festival. He was proved to be wholly correct. Opbeith HAS been active on the talk page, which I understand is the proper procedure for seeking to make major alterations to the main page. BobRayner's recent edits have all been minor and constructive and have largely been accepted.
As regards Producer, I partially support his argument that some information should be given about funding for the film (for reasons I give on the talk page) and believe a reasonable compromise would have been achievable. However, once again, when UrbanVillager did not 'get his own way' he has taken the matter to DRN.

UrbanVillager is again being disingenuous when he says he does not object to criticism, since he knows that the film has almost never been shown nor reviewed outside the Serbian and diaspora communities and no 'serious' review has been written even within those communities. His actions seem designed to suppress any content in the article page which might link to Misplaced Pages pages giving alternative (mainstream) views of events covered in the film.

I know nothing about the other participants in this dispute, nor anything useful about the Malagurski page.Pincrete (talk) 23:42, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I acknowledge what Bob Rayner says above about my comments. Perhaps how I should have left it is: his edits have all been 'constructive', by which I mean that they have all been both 'within guidelines' and also intended to restore balance and realism to the page.Pincrete (talk) 08:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:2012–13 UEFA Champions League group stage

Resolved against inclusion of the material, see closed discussion for details. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:51, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The Poison

Closing: 3 days with no discussion. Guy Macon (talk) 01:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

UVB-76

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• UVB-76 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• CodeCat (talk · contribs)
• InVultusSolis (talk · contribs)
• Secretlondon (talk · contribs)
• Bduxbury (talk · contribs)
• 68.158.33.241 (talk · contribs)
• 24.184.249.226 (talk · contribs)
• 189.248.165.4 (talk · contribs)
• 71.167.191.153 (talk · contribs)
• Stesfs (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Lately a lot of content that is unsourced, of dubious relevance and badly formatted has been added to the article. It made the article read more like a logbook full of trivia information where anyone could add whatever they felt like. The importance and accuracy of the information was never established with reliable and independent sources. I do not think this information belongs on Misplaced Pages, at least not in the current form.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to revert the bad content, but my reversions were reverted themselves by the anonymous users who had added the content. I attempted to discuss the issue on the talk page, but the discussion was largely ignored and those users continued to insert more bad content into the page. I therefore requested protection on the article in an attempt to force a discussion, which was granted for a week. No further discussion took place during that time, however. The protection has now ended, and once again someone has reverted me and re-inserted the content verbatim.

How do you think we can help?

The article's subject is rather 'out on the fringes' so to say, so I believe it has a tendency to attract editors who are committed to inserting information about their favourite subject, without much regard for Misplaced Pages standards of quality. It would be good if editors who are more experienced with Misplaced Pages could have a look at the issue and give comments, maybe help improve the article as well.

Opening comments by InVultusSolis

Opening comments by Secretlondon

I think we are being hoaxed actually. None of the usual UVB-76 fan sites are covering these new additions - I can't find anything to corroborate them. One of the claimed broadcast code words was FARK, which may indicate a fark connection. Misplaced Pages is never a primary source. I've tried to remove it when it appears but there's just more and more of it. The article was semi protected for a while which stopped it, but it's since come back. I don't know if this noticeboard entry is needed as all this stuff is unreferenced. More semi protection? Secretlondon (talk) 22:29, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Bduxbury

I believe we are speaking about the section, "2012" that has been deleted and added multiple times. This section has become a "log book" of sorts, and has not been covered by sites covering the activities of UVB-76. Although, I have listened to strange anomalies on this channel that is noteworthy and similar to previous activity reported in 2010, Misplaced Pages cannot be a primary source and should be taken down until it can be sourced properly.Bduxbury (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

UVB-76 discussion

Hi. I'm a volunteer and I'd like to help the parties come to consensus. I see that we are waiting for one more party (InVultusSolis) to submit an opening statement. We can start a discussion after they do so. --Noleander (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

... I see that InVultusSolis is not very active, so if they don't comment by, say, 14 November, we can just proceed without them. --Noleander (talk) 17:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

...... Hmmm, it looks like there may be one or more anonymous (IP) users that are involved, in fact, they are the "opposing" side that wants to include the material. They need to be notified of this DRN case. I'll do that now, then we can wait a couple of days. The IPs are: 68.158.33.241, 24.184.249.226, 189.248.165.4 , 71.167.191.153. Also User:stefs added the material. --Noleander (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, everyone has been notified. Now we have to wait 2 or 3 days. --Noleander (talk) 17:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't consider that the IPs would also need to be notified as I didn't think they are really users, IPs can change after all. CodeCat (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

No problem. For DRN purposes, we have to consider them users and treat them with the same courtesy as everyone else. Yes, IPs can change, and sometimes 2 or 3 IPs are actually a single person. Based on the editing history of these IPs and user Stesfs, it is unlikely that they will choose to participate. But the integrity of the DRN process demands that we give them an opportunity. --Noleander (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi guys. Total error of judgement on my behalf in reviving that information.Stesfs (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Green Mountain College

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Green Mountain College (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kingsrow1975 (talk · contribs)
• Vt catamount (talk · contribs)
• Crazytome (talk · contribs)
• PE2011 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

After much debate, the editors came up with a mostly satisfactory compromise on an entry about its two oxen that were scheduled to be processed for meat, due to the college's ideals of sustainability, and the ire that arose from it.

One user, PE2011, insists on including the opinions of certain groups (mostly VINE) that were involved. Many editors have argued that while they did share a general communal opinion, individual reasoning was not worthy of including in such a short and to-the-point article about what happened, especially since the media has given little coverage of their opinions. An admin has repeatedly weighed in in support of our position of exclusion, yet the user PE2011 has continued to argue ad nauseum about including the reasoning, mostly from one organization that was pretty much unknown before the controversy. Other editors have stated that there is no reason to include a specific group's opinion. Allow me to quote part on admin Qwyrxian's opinion on the subject:

"VINE's viewpoint is not significant. They're a group that tried to use this "controversy" to gain attention. They succeeded, and were oovered in some stories. We've represented their relevance to the story. Their viewpoint is not relevant. And no, we should not include all of those other viewpoints. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. Don't worry, a lot of people make this same mistake about NPOV. But if you read the whole thing, the goal of WP articles is not to include a long list of "he said, they said, she said", but, instead, to represent factually what happened. In cases where interpretation of events is relevant, we have to include various people's interpretations, taking into account WP:DUE. To be honest, PE2011, you're getting near to WP:DEADHORSE territory. And since there is a clear consensus not to include the information, it should stay out..."

Please help us end this circular, repetitive and LONG discussion that is going nowhere. Thank you.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have repeatedly tried to compromise, but the only compromise from PE2011 has been write ups that favored his opinion.

How do you think we can help?

Please help to find a common ground or end the discussion altogether. PE2011 has been engaging in an edit war simply because other editors disagree with him. The page has been temporarily locked due to this. Frankly, many of us are tired (figuratively and literally) of his almost bullying tactics to get his way and we just want to move on from the issue without living in the fear that PE2011 will continue to edit the entry to suit his whims. Please help!

Opening comments by Vt catamount

Editor PE2011 has proposed an expansion of VINE's "rationale for slaughter" within the Green Mountain College entry subsection "Oxen Slaughtering Controversy." His or her reasoning is two-fold, first that no rationale is given, and second that the VINE opposition is the "majority viewpoint." I contest both of these assumptions as follows:

From WP:NPOV - “Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.” (emphasis added).

After reviewing several of the published, reliable sources already referenced in the text, it appears that VINE's rationale for non-slaughter is in fact the option for retirement - the only sentiment I see recycled (in reliable sources) is their general "shock" at the refusal of said offer. It was the refusal of said offer that prompted what followed. The current proposal by PE2011 goes above and beyond what is required by principle, and although the language is sourced by one article (though not nationwide, as preferred), it appears that it is simply not important enough to report here. WP:SPS "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so."

I think our biggest issue going forward is "what defines a majority" re:NPOV and UNDUE. I do not think that the opinions of VINE/petitioners are in the majority - the case is still unfolding, and the focus in reliable sources has shifted away from the complaints of the protestors (minority) and onto the absurdity of the protests (majority). This is why the existence of "threats" is so important (a previous discussion), and this is why any further rationale VINE may have for making the initial offer (beyond "retirement") is unimportant.

Finally, the rationale given for the protests in all reliable sources is the fact that 11 year old working oxen are slated to be slaughtered for dinner, which is already stated within the first line(s) of the subsection.

Thank you for your help moving forward.Vt catamount (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Crazytome

As far as I understand, the timeline of this event is: 1) GMC planned slaughter, 2) protest, 3) threats, 4) slaughter cancelled, 5) Lou was euthanized.

The portion covering the second part, the protest, is succinctly covered by a properly-sourced reference with a sentence such as "The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide." VINE, an animal sanctuary, is included under the umbrella of "protesters," as its offer to provide a retirement home for the oxen is a form of protest to the slaughter. Other sanctuaries and individual farms offered similar accommodations but are not mentioned by name.

Furthermore, as this is the Misplaced Pages entry for Green Mountain College, it is extraneous to include VINE's perspective on the issue. It adds no substance or important information to the article and adds weight to, in this case, an unimportant party. I suggested that if this is important to VINE, they can add it to their own Misplaced Pages entry.

If the mediator determines that VINE's rationale could reasonably be included, I hold that the sentence following suggestion is sufficient: "GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school as a humane alternative, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." Retirement holds value and the phrase "humane alternative" is an effective summation. The phrase PE2011 insists on, "is not a worthy trade-off" is not a well-supported statement in and of itself. "Humane alternative" is much more effective to the common reader. My objection to it is that it is heavily-valued while holding little substance (which is not how an encyclopedia entry should be). Crazytome (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by PE2011

Some context: GMC made the decision—not yet carried out—to slaughter two of their oxen, Bill and Lou, which prompted strong opposition from the public (townspeople, animal rights supporters, and “tens of thousands” of online petitioners worldwide), thereby making this story a “controversy” between two general viewpoints: GMC’s viewpoint that B&L should be slaughtered v. the opposition viewpoint that they should not be slaughtered. WP:UNDUE “requires” “all significant viewpoints” to be fairly represented, but since that isn’t being done, I must object to the current graf.

The current graf contains an articulated rationale for slaughter (because it “align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm”), but it does not contain any articulated rationale against it—despite the opposition viewpoint numbering in the “tens of thousands” (actual phrase in graf). So my proposal was to work in a short rationale by VINE, the animal rights organization already mentioned in the graf and covered in several pieces on this controversy (e.g., in the Huffington post, NYT, Chronicle of Higher Education, NPR, and VTDigger). That articulated rationale was cited in VTDigger, the core part being (my condensation): “meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives.” I still don’t understand why it’s so unreasonable to include this rationale into the graf; Kingsrow1975 will not explain, no matter how many times I asked him.

Furthermore, I am not necessarily wedded to the rationale specifically articulated by VINE. Another acceptable alternative (already proposed but rejected) is the rationale articulated in the care2 petition letter, the very one referenced above, which received “tens of thousands” of online signatures. For me, the overriding issue is to have some articulated rationale against slaughter--at least comparable to the articulated rationale for it--so that the opposition to slaughter viewpoint can be fairly represented, as required by WP:UNDUE. This dispute has progressed here because the so-called "majority" prefers to exclude any articulated rationale against slaughter which would balance out the articulated rationale for it. Compromise on this point is wholly unreasonable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Green Mountain College discussion

Hello, and welcome to dispute resolution. I see that you have discussed this on the talk page a lot, which is great as a first step. Could I ask some questions first to see where you'd like to go with this? 1. Would you just like to continue the discussion with some moderation? Or are you looking for more of a discussion partner in our volunteers? 2. Will you all be willing to agree to abstaining from any edit warring over the article until this is complete (A voluntary 1RR for example)? 3. Would the editor who is claiming appropriate sourcing please post here with links to sources for the VINE opinion, and explain why VINE is the majority when there are other organizations out there? Thanks for volunteering to bring this matter here, and I'll try to guide you as best I can. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello gwickwire, thanks for helping us out. To answer your questions: 1. I want whatever will solve this issue quickly. I feel like this has already been discussed soooo much; I really just want to move the process along. So whatever others want and/or you are most comfortable with. 2. I'm fine with this. Crazytome (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, gwickwire, for being a part of this. Allow me to address each of your questions: 1. I do not feel that it would be in the best interests to keep the discussion going. It has become tedious, circular and without any hope of resolution. I feel that point has long passed for any suitable conclusion. Frankly, and I cannot speak for the other editors, but PE2011's overbearing and barely compromising "my way or the highway" attitude has erased any chance of true compromise (and although he will claim otherwise that he does not do it, on his Talk page he was chastised for such behavior). However, if you feel a heavy dose of moderation would help, then heck...let's see what you can do. 2. I completely agree to abstain from edit warring, provided PE2011 does the same.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 23:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, gwickwire! 1. We're looking for more of a "discussion partner" I'd suppose, someone with experience who can weigh in on what 'deserves' inclusion in this entry. 2. I would love to abstain from edit warring! 1RR sounds fine. 3. See PE2011 post below, but please note that only one of those sources (VTDigger) includes the "viewpoint" that PE would like to include in the subsection, while the viewpoint expressed in the remainder of the sources is mirrored in the entry as it stands today. I fear further addition will change the manner of controversy and turn the entry into a mouthpiece for a separate organization, but I digress. Thanks again for getting involved. I will happily compromise on whatever is *best for the integrity of the entry*. Vt catamount (talk) 02:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

One methodological suggestion. During discussion, we editors should strive to articulate specific reasons why we believe certain proposals are unacceptable, rather than dismiss them without explanation. I believe this is what I’ve been doing all along: when I object to some proposal, rather than casually dismiss it out of hand, I explain why I’m against it by offering reasons – others should reciprocate in this regard. The onus can’t be entirely on me to come up with proposal after proposal when no reason is provided against my suggestions other than, essentially, “I don’t like it.” PE2011 (talk) 02:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, PE2011, I would like to suggest this rule applies to you, as well. When I articulated my reasons for not including extraneous information, you were extremely dismissive, holding that they were my "opinion" and ignoring the logical argument I laid out.Crazytome (talk) 05:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Gwickwire, your guidance is greatly appreciated, and thank you for volunteering your time in what may be a long, drawn-out process, if history is any guide. :) 1. A highly moderated discussion would be perfect, though it would also help to have substantive input from other volunteers. 2. Agreed. 3. Before posting my sources below, I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. And even if it wasn’t true (an absurd claim which I can easily refute), it is nevertheless a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion. Moreover, as indicated above, I am perfectly open to accepting a rationale articulated from a source other than VINE, such as the care2 petition letter. Now for sources that mention VINE:

1. Huffingtonpost:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/green-mountain-colleges-f_b_1967361.html

2. NYT:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/us/oxens-possible-slaughter-prompts-fight-in-vermont.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 (also references the care2 petition, “tens of thousands of online petitioners”)

3. Chronicle of Higher Education: http://chronicle.com/blogs/buildings/a-decision-to-slaughter-oxen-at-a-college-farm-angers-animal-rights-activists/32260 (links to the care2 petition, mentions the above huffingtonpost article, and even links to one of VINE’s open letters.)

4. NPR: http://m.npr.org/news/Science/163257176 (mentions the care2 petition—“more than 30,000 signatures from all over the world.”)

5. VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2012/11/04/national-animal-rights-group-blocks-slaughter-of-green-mountain-college-oxen-by-pressuring-local-slaughterhouses/ (mentions care2 petition—“47,300 signatures from across the nation and world”—that the story has been picked up by the NYT, Boston Globe, and Huffington Post, and quotes from one of VINE’s memos to GMC.)

6. TIMES ARGUS: http://www.timesargus.com/article/20121104/NEWS3003/711049932

7. Psychology Today: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201210/bill-and-lou-who-lives-who-dies-and-why

8. AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie6N7qspIVA96Eebzwg3SOcoB6nA?docId=568d603eca1142e8a3743327e422d14b (also references care2 petition)

10. Boston Globe: http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/10/25/fire-mountain/f8mIXuOFwg201TopTbeXiK/story.html (also references care2 petition, “surpassed 25,000 signatures”)

11. one green planet: https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/superstorm-bill-and-lou-and-the-diet-for-a-sustainable-future/

13: Rutland Herald: http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20121112/NEWS01/711129970PE2011 (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Before I reply to PE2011's list of sources, another editor, George McD, asked that I post this statement from him in regards to this issue.

"I want to go on record for the conflict resolution, etc., that I am ok with any of the following edits that have been suggested by other editors (below). I feel that it is important to include one of them. 1) "VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 2)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, stating that meat from Bill and Lou is not a worthy trade-off for their lives. GMC refused the offer, stating that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm." 3)"VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary offered to take Bill and Lou so they could live their lives in retirement, at no cost to the school, as a humane alternative. GMC refused the offer, stating that it did not align with their values of sustainability." Thank you. George McD (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)"Kingsrow1975 (talk) 02:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I have looked over all these sources and noted the mentions of VINE in them. As you can see, the vast majority of the articles simply mention the offer VINE made to GMC. Only one, maybe two, articles give any form of reasoning whatsoever. From a journalistic standpoint, the mere mention of VINE in these articles in no way implies or proves that they were in any way a major player in the issue. So, based on the evidence below, I submit that the inclusion of VINE's opinion is giving undue weight to their opinion and as such is unnecessary. Thank you.

1. Huffingtonpost:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/green-mountain-colleges-f_b_1967361.html

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "Fortunately, VINE farm animal sanctuary has offered a loving home for the pair -- at no expense to the college."

2. NYT:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/29/us/oxens-possible-slaughter-prompts-fight-in-vermont.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 (also references the care2 petition, “tens of thousands of online petitioners”)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "An animal sanctuary in Springfield, Vt., known as Veganism Is the Next Evolution, offered to take Bill and Lou into retirement. “We thought, ‘We can solve this problem,’ ” said Pattrice Jones, a founder of the sanctuary. “It just shocks the conscience of anybody who believes in kindness to animals.”"

3. Chronicle of Higher Education: http://chronicle.com/blogs/buildings/a-decision-to-slaughter-oxen-at-a-college-farm-angers-animal-rights-activists/32260 (links to the care2 petition, mentions the above huffingtonpost article, and even links to one of VINE’s open letters.)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. It has a minor bit of reasoning, but hardly anything worth of note. - "The VINE Sanctuary in Vermont, which carries the slogan “Veganism Is the Next Evolution,” has offered to take the animals. Cheryl Wylie, a staff member there, has written an open letter to the college, arguing that “now is not the time to argue about diet or definitions of ‘sustainability.’” “The only question really should be: What is best for Bill and Lou?,” she continued. “I’m sure that, if they were able to speak for themselves at the meeting, they’d ask to be allowed retire to VINE.”"

VINE's "open letters" are mere opinion pieces and are in no way representative of the ideals of the whole movement.

4. NPR: http://m.npr.org/news/Science/163257176 (mentions the care2 petition—“more than 30,000 signatures from all over the world.”)

This mention of VINE is yet again about their offer and a bit about their disagreement, certainly not a lot of reasoning. "These two individuals have become veritable mascots for the school. They are the profile picture on the farm's Facebook page," says Miriam Jones, cofounder of Vine, an animal sanctuary in Springfield, Vt. The animal sanctuary has offered to take Bill and Lou to live there for free. Vine's Pattrice Jones says the staff was stunned when the college said no and cited sustainability as one of its reasons. "We do not believe that the way to conserve resources is to kill the elderly and disabled to prevent them from using up resources because they're not useful anymore," Jones says. "We just ethically find that repugnant."

This mention of VINE is yet again about their offer and their reaction from being denied. - "VINE offered to take Bill and Lou to live at the sanctuary for free. VINE's Pattrice Jones says they were stunned when the college said no and cited sustainability as one of their reasons."

5. VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2012/11/04/national-animal-rights-group-blocks-slaughter-of-green-mountain-college-oxen-by-pressuring-local-slaughterhouses/ (mentions care2 petition—“47,300 signatures from across the nation and world”—that the story has been picked up by the NYT, Boston Globe, and Huffington Post, and quotes from one of VINE’s memos to GMC.)

The first mention of anything dealing with VINE giving any sort of reasoning. - "…Veganism is the New Evolution, or VINE, to offer to take the retired oxen off of the college’s hands at no cost. VINE, which has been vocal in advocating for the animals’ lives, has posted several open letters on their blog, arguing that hamburger meat that will serve the college dining halls for just a few months is not a worthy trade-off for the lives of the two oxen. “These two members of the Green Mountain College community have gracefully and faithfully served and educated so many, and they deserve to be honored by a retirement befitting their years of dedicated service,” VINE representatives write."

There is one other mention of VINE, but it's just that they secured another sanctuary location.

VINE's "open letters" are mere opinion pieces and are in no way representative of the ideals of the whole movement.

6. TIMES ARGUS: http://www.timesargus.com/article/20121104/NEWS3003/711049932

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "It is clear to me, however, that because Bill and Lou have been offered a free home to live out their lives, they will no longer be using GMC’s resources. And if VINE is not an option GMC wants to take, there are many other working farms who would welcome Bill and Lou."

7. Psychology Today: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201210/bill-and-lou-who-lives-who-dies-and-why

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "VINE, a sanctuary near GMC, has offered to have them live there for free."

8. AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ie6N7qspIVA96Eebzwg3SOcoB6nA?docId=568d603eca1142e8a3743327e422d14b (also references care2 petition)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "The uproar began after VINE Sanctuary, which stands for veganism is the next evolution, was contacted by students and alumni who opposed the decision. It then posted an action alert on its blog asking readers to "please contact the folks at Green Mountain College and urge them to reconsider." It provided a form letter, free of threats, that readers could send to Throop. "This took off far beyond what we anticipated, not that we're unhappy," said Miriam Jones, VINE's coordinator. VINE, based in Springfield, has offered a space for the animals, which typically live 10 to 12 years but can survive up to 20 years."

9. Boston Globe: http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/10/25/fire-mountain/f8mIXuOFwg201TopTbeXiK/story.html (also references care2 petition, “surpassed 25,000 signatures”)

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "Miriam Jones, coordinator and cofounder of VINE Sanctuary, said people looking to place animals generally are very happy to find a home for them, and she was shocked when Green Mountain College refused her offer to take Bill and Lou. “I really didn’t expect to hear anything but awesome when I called,” she said."

10. one green planet: https://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/superstorm-bill-and-lou-and-the-diet-for-a-sustainable-future/

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "SuperStorm Bill and Lou is the internet firestorm raised by GMC’s decision to eat Bill and Lou despite the offer from Vine Sanctuary to retire them…"

11: Rutland Herald: http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20121112/NEWS01/711129970PE2011 (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

This is about Bill's current situation. Irrelevant. - "Miriam Jones, a member of VINE Sanctuary in Springfield (VINE stands for “veganism is the next evolution”), said Sunday that her group and other animal activists would continue to work to save Bill. “We still believe Bill should be sent to a sanctuary. Our interest, first and foremost, is Bill’s welfare,” said Jones, including proper medication, including pain medication for any ailments. Jones said animals cannot be eaten within 30 days of receiving medication, such as antibiotics or pain medication. She said her sanctuary had euthanized animals, but only after they lose their will to live and stop eating, drinking and moving. “But every animal is different,” she said. VINE, which was founded in Maryland as a sanctuary for chickens, moved to Springfield in 2010, and currently houses 27 bovines, along with chickens and a few sheep, according to its webpage. Jones said her group was concerned about the slaughter of all animals, and not just Bill and Lou. “I can’t march into Smithfield Pork and demand all their pigs,” said Jones, much as she’d like to."

The only mention about VINE is their offer, which has already been covered. - "VINE had offered to take in Bill and Lou to prevent their slaughter, but the college had steadfastly refused any offers of sanctuary."Kingsrow1975 (talk) 02:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I will refrain from commenting further until we hear from gwickwire about moderating our discussion (something that I now highly favor), but will just note briefly two things: (1) Again, my contention is merely that VINE’s viewpoint—that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority here (“tens of thousands” agree with it), and (2) the fact that VINE is the main AR group repeatedly mentioned in these stories about the controversy--and not in passing--belies any claim that they aren’t a “major player in the issue.” PE2011 (talk) 03:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, 1) It would be improper to assign the value that the oxen not be slaughtered to VINE, as other groups like PETA, other farm sanctuaries and, frankly, the whole of the protesters held the same belief. That said, their statement of disagreement has already been covered by the statement that they protested the action (they would not have protested had they not held the belief that B&L should have gone to sanctuary), and 2) A common mention in different news articles does not indicate weight of voice. Any cub reporter worth their salt would have mentioned VINE because they made the initial offer and as such, it's a pertinent element in the history of the story, and that's it. Given the evidence that the vast majority of articles only mentioned VINE's original offer, you cannot glean importance from that. To be honest, if anyone had the "weight of voice" it would have been the general protesters themselves. They were the ones that protested GMC, the Vermont governor's office, Division of Tourism, etc..Kingsrow1975 (talk) 03:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

PE2011, for formatting reasons I am putting this down here rather than figure out how to include it above. You stated earlier that "I want to clarify my contention: it is not that VINE is the majority organization spearheading the campaign to save Bill and Lou (although true), but that VINE’s viewpoint—the view that Bill and Lou should not be slaughtered—is the majority on this issue. ... it is ... a significant viewpoint, so some rationale against slaughter warrants inclusion." If all you require is "some" rationale, than what is wrong with the summation description of "humane alternative"? It is succinct, effective, and makes sense to the common reader. In this light, I propose the following statement: ""The college's decision prompted opposition from animal rights supporters from around the world, including some townspeople and thousands of online petitioners worldwide, who wanted a humane alternative."Crazytome (talk) 05:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair warning - I will contest the use of the term "humane," not just because it isn't cited in any source, but because it implies that the treatment of Bill and Lou was at some point not humane. This is contradicted by the referenced texts; the Secretary of Agriculture states specifically that the actions of Cerridwen Farm at GMC were "not inhumane", and the school was determined to use an AWA Humane-certified slaughterhouse. We should not use charged terminology as a catch-all. But, again, I believe that the line in question involves the reason for the offer (retirement) and the reason for the denial (doesn't align), so I stand the ground that no further expansion of any given viewpoint is necessary.Vt catamount (talk) 15:51, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

A brief note (to help guide volunteers): I want to emphasize that a highly moderated discussion would be preferable, and it should focus on resolving two distinct issues. (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? We should first focus on achieving consensus on (1) before moving onto (2) – that is, discussing specific proposals. Thank you.PE2011 (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Re #1, no. There is no reason to include the viewpoints of any individual groups or people. The goal of WP articles is to represent factually what happened. In cases where interpretation of events is relevant, we have to include various people's interpretations. But there's no dispute about what occurred here. Flyte35 (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Re #1, I agree with Flyte35. VINE's particular perspective (and inclusion) is irrelevant to the basic facts of the timeline and it is not necessary for language to include their "influence." Furthermore, it is not appropriate to include one specific organization at the expense of others who did or said similar things.Crazytome (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Another brief note to volunteers: the focus of the current dispute is merely about including or excluding some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter—it should NOT be about sneaking in, as Crazytome appears to be doing, prior graf language that has already been rejected. Crazytome’s above proposal significantly changes the third sentence of the current graf to his preferred (and rejected) version. To keep the moderated discussion focused, no proposals of any kind should be considered other than ones relevant to the current dispute. Please watch out for his antics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PE2011 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The language I used was only rejected by you. If one can wade through the talk page, it is obvious that you favor language that over-inflates the animal rights/VINE perspective and the actual size and scale of the protest. Other editors favored language that was more succinct overall and the above suggested sentence you are accusing of being "sneaky" would read as "The college's decision prompted international opposition from animal rights supporters, who wanted a humane alternative" instead." A consensus was never actually reached on this issue; you just argued it until the conversation picked up surrounding other parts of the paragraph. This particular section may not be why this dispute was opened, but it does illustrate a major reason why the dispute had to be opened. Crazytome (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Crazytome, your proposed version was NOT only rejected by me but other editors as well (including, I believe, Kingsrow1975 - but he/she can correct me if I'm mistaken). My point is, let's not litigate anything that isn't specifically about the current dispute, which is whether some articulated rationale against slaughter should be included. Again the issues are: (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? Your issue, if you want to pursue it, is one for another day in another forum. PE2011 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think your assessment of the situation is more of less correct, Crazytome, but I think in order to move forward in the most responsible (and more rapid) way it is best to limit the discussion to (1) Should some (sourced) articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? (2) If so, what articulated rationale should be included? The current graf reads:

The college made national headlines in the fall of 2012 over its plan to slaughter its two 11-year-old draft oxen, Bill and Lou, and serve their meat in the college dining hall. The community decision was made after Lou was injured and it was determined that Bill would not accept a new partner. GMC declined an offer by VINE (Veganism Is the Next Evolution) animal sanctuary to allow the oxen to retire at no cost to the school, saying that the offer did not align with the values of a sustainable, production-based farm. The college's decision prompted opposition from townspeople, animal rights supporters and tens of thousands of online petitioners worldwide. The college planned to slaughter the oxen by the end of October but postponed the event, saying area slaughterhouses were deluged with protests, some of them threatening. In November, the college had Lou euthanized and buried his body off campus. Bill is slated to remain with the college.

The discussion here has to do ONLY with if a change "rationale against slaughter" should be included (and if yes, what?). Flyte35 (talk) 20:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35. Although we obviously disagree, I want to thank you for acknowledging that the current dispute here is only about (1) and (2). I look forward to your participation in this discussion.PE2011 (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. By making this comment, I'm not necessarily suggesting that I am going to take on this dispute: I may or may not, in equal portions. But I do want to make a comment about what's being discussed and the basis on which it is being discussed. The only proper reason or motivation for editing Misplaced Pages is to improve Misplaced Pages and to do so in accordance with its accepted norms, policies, and procedures. What I'm reading here seems to be a whole lot about whose ox is <ahem> being gored and whose position is being advanced and precious little about what's best for Misplaced Pages. To the scant extent that Misplaced Pages policy is being discussed, it's being used more as a bludgeon or totem than it is for the reasons it exists: to define what's best for Misplaced Pages. In a short article about a relatively minor college, a great deal of coverage about this incident is clearly inappropriate. What is in the article already seems to me to be perfectly adequate to note what happened. I'd like to ask, in that light, for the benefit of whatever volunteer chooses to weigh in on this case: How will Misplaced Pages be benefited by any of the edits being discussed here? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agreed with TransporterMan. This subsection of the GMC entry is fine as is. Thank you for weighing in, TransporterMan, whether or not you decide to take on this dispute.Vt catamount (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I, too, agree with you, TransporterMan, and thank you for your input. To echo the sentiments of Vt catamount, the section is fine as is. As you stated, this is short article on the page dealing with a minor college and it does not warrant a full-blown exposé of the issue.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 21:58, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Transporterman, thank you for your input. I agree with you that, moving forward, any proposed edits should be discussed in light of whether they will benefit or improve Misplaced Pages, and I would like to have that (moderated) discussion. I do want to suggest one criticism of your above comment, where you said: “In a short article about a relatively minor college, a great deal of coverage about this incident is clearly inappropriate.” First, the implication seems to be that the proposed edits regarding this current resolution dispute will mean “a great deal of coverage about this incident,” which is not accurate. I do not propose adding “a great deal of coverage,” but merely a short rationale against slaughter. Short. Second, although GMC may be a “relatively minor college,” this story is a relatively big story for GMC. Both the Boston Globe and NYT recently reported on the story again (after Lou was euthanized). I believe it’s more appropriate to judge inclusion based on how big the story is, not on how big the rest of GMC’s[REDACTED] page is. Once again, thank you for weighing in. PE2011 (talk) 22:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

As TransporterMan said, you must ask yourself, "What is best for Misplaced Pages?" The article as it stands is a clear, concise paragraph that deals with the issue, which was and is this: 1. GMC plans slaughter, 2. VINE offers sanctuary, 3. GMC refuses, 4. people get angry and protest, 5. slaughter postponed due to protests and threats against said slaughterhouses and 6. GMC euthanizes Lou. That's it. That's all that the story needs to tell as those are the facts. The rationale against GMC's decision is already in the article, though unstated: Those protesting GMC's decision feel/felt that they would be better served at sanctuary. The reader can easily infer that is why they protested. As another mod said on the GMC:Talk page, Misplaced Pages articles should not include a bunch of "He said, they said, she said, they said" fluff as it is just that - filler. This article, as it stands, is free of such fluff and should stay free of it. Furthermore, reporting the story again after the ox was euthanized does not mean it was a "big" story...it was just responsible journalism. On any article dealing with any topic, if new information is uncovered or there is a resolution to a a previously-reported issue, a followup article is written.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975, I will refrain from discussing specifics regarding the current dispute until we have moderation, but I want to say two things: (1) Again, what I propose (and like I said, I’m open to non-VINE rationales) will hardly mean “a bunch of ‘He said, they said, she said, they said’ fluff.” Your implied characterization of my general proposal as “fluff” is a distortion. (2) A controversy that is repeatedly covered in national news qualifies as a “big story,” and notice that I said “relatively big story for GMC,” which is true. News coverage, especially national news, implies noteworthy attention.PE2011 (talk) 22:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not a "big story" at all. For example, the New York Times ran TWO stories about the whole deal...the initial story and the followup about Lou's euthanasia. That hardly qualifies a story as big. That said, lest I be consumed into the tactic you exhibited on the Green Mountain:Talk page of using circular arguments to try to wear down your opposition, I will comment no more until a moderator steps in.Kingsrow1975 (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Kingsrow1975, I must say the following. Two stories in the NYT is, in itself, pretty significant, but add to that coverage in Huffingtonpost (multiple times), Boston Globe (multiple times), NPR, Psychology Today, USA Today, The Chronicle of Higher Education, and the rest I mentioned above (and some I didn't mention). How many stories can you say that about? How many GMC stories not about B&L can you say that about? At the very least, this story is "big" for GMC. PE2011 (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

PE2011, I agree that this is a big deal for GMC. That is why, on the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry, information about Green Mountain College is relevant. Information about VINE, Farm Sanctuary, PETA, random protesters, and 'petitioners' is not.Crazytome (talk) 03:10, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, it's kinda important, we get it. That's why the B&L graf is in the article. The question at hand is: Should any articulated rationale against slaughter be included in the graf? Let's focus here. We've had the freewheeling discussion over at the talk page already.Flyte35 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35. Again, thank you for acknowledging this point: I didn’t mean to go into a long discussion on why this controversy is important, but I felt compelled to given previous skeptical comments. Unlike you, some editors do not "get it." I agree we should concentrate specifically on the two issues pertinent to this current dispute.PE2011 (talk) 23:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Flyte35, no, there is no need for any articulated rationale against the slaughter in the article. It is not necessary to the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry. It adds nothing of value *about Green Mountain College* to the Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry. GMC does not have official perspectives on veganism, vegetarianism, or why it isn't okay to slaughter farm animals, so anything related to that is the agenda of other organizations or people and is therefore inappropriate to spend words on in the *Green Mountain College Misplaced Pages entry.* Those ideas can go on other entries, about other groups that *do* have those official positions. Crazytome (talk) 03:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you 100%. The incident is fully explained as is. There is, as far as I can see it, no need for any more information in the grapf.Flyte35 (talk) 03:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Gwickwire#recent_reversion_of_La_Luz_del_Mundo

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• User talk:Gwickwire#recent reversion of La Luz del Mundo (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• RidjalA (talk · contribs)
• Fordx12 (talk · contribs)
• RobertRosen (talk · contribs)
• Gwickwire (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

For the past few weeks, Fordx12 (along with another user who's now gone AWOL) has introduced thousands of bytes to La Luz del Mundo, and I've brought it to his attention that most of this information appears to lean towards the promotional side. Per the request of an outside third opinion, a user (RobertRosen) removed much of that content, which I feel was justified to conform to the non-promotional standards of Misplaced Pages.

However, one admin (Gwickwire) at the request of Fordx12 reverted RobertRosen's revision (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=La_Luz_del_Mundo&diff=prev&oldid=522575764). From my POV, this revert was unjustified, and hence feel that conforming to the 5 pillars, specifically that pages not be used as promotional platforms, supersede this admin's revert of RobertRosen.

In the past I've tried trimming down Fordx12's content to conform to the non-promotional purpose of Misplaced Pages, but the user filed an Rfc against me here (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/RidjalA) (This information contained in this Rfc might help to better understand the origins of our disputes.)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've had numerous extensive discussions, some unavoidable edit warring, and inquired 3O

How do you think we can help?

So the dispute is as follows: Is RobertRosen's trimmed down version better and easier to work with in improving La Luz del Mundo? (this version reduces content that leans towards the promotional side). Or is Fordx12 (i.e. Gwickwire's reverted version) the better alternative? (this version includes all of the questionable content as is) Diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=La_Luz_del_Mundo&diff=prev&oldid=522714605

I feel that the full version needs some major reduction, and would like some further insight. Is such elaborate content warranted for such a little known and obscure religious group? (for the record, Dormady and Fortuny are referenced 37 times; do a quick search for "Dormady" and "Fortuny" on La Luz del Mundo; sounds to me like sources are lacking and being used over-exhaustively. I should also mention that Dormady is a PhD dissertation, not an actual book, nor anything commercially published (it's publisher is ProQuest??))

Opening comments by Fordx12

The 3O request was regarding a dispute about on subsection between Ajaxfiore and RidjalA. RobertRosen proceeded to delete entire sections that were sourced. These sections are similar to that of those found on Jehovah's Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others that I use as models. As far is the subject of the article being obscure, I have not heard of that being an issue. Take these two little known groups as an example Iglesia ni Cristo, Two by Twos. I panicked upon seeing the section blanking and RidjalA refering to RobertRosen as an admin here So I contacted one editor, then the teahouse and then asked for admin assitance to see what I should do. This led to me seeking advice on my editing practices as can be seen here . I want to leave past disputes behind. So I have invited outside editors to help vet the article here . I believe that we should have various editors vet and tweek that article, not indiscriminately delete entire sections. I see nothing that is in the LLDM article that isn't in the articles I mentioned here. Are they also promotional? The Iglesia Ni Cristo article has info on its architecture and detailed history/beliefs sections. The Two by Twos are similar. The Witnesses article has a persecution section. All of them have detailed history sections. Witnesses infobox contains Watchtower numbers for its data. Is that promotional? As for my past actions, RidjalA's "trimmings" involved deleting sourced content. There was an issue that started in late September about close paraphrasing issues which were resoled over time (RidjalA did not provide me with problematic sentences and when he did, several were not close paraphrasing). Here is my Teahouse post . I didn't ask the editor to do anything, I asked for advice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fordx12 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by RobertRosen

OBJECTION: Per me, this event is not only about content, but also the conduct of 2 editors and persistent edit-warring, so this may not be the appropriate forum.

FACTS: I entered as a neutral editor to offer WP:3O (I never claimed to be an admin). I left a message on page talk asking all combatants to precisely state their lis. I informed the 2 editors (who I thought were warring) on their talk pages. I then learnt of a RFC filed by 1 Fordx12 against the other RidjalA. I read it thoroughly and advised them to bring their dispute back to the article's talk page to resolve with a neutral editor - me. In view of the RFC it was clear I would not be acting as 3O. Fordx12 agreed. I also noted there were SPAs on the page. Sysop John Carter later agreed with me, on the unwarranted RFC & also the serious SPA concerns. 2 editors gave their opinion. I did not need the 3rd's as it was on the RFC page. I made it clear that in view of SPA issues I would WP:BOLDly clean the article. By then I had researched the article subject & talk history thoroughly. I rigorously trimmed the article to half its size by numerous & individual sub-section wise edits along with edit summaries for the major controversies/blankings. Hence to say I removed a very large chunk is false. I buzz-cut the article of much of its WP:SOAP (it is an advertisement for a fringe cult masquerading as an article based on unreliable blogs, EL's, Spanish Language/dubious/SPS and by misquoting primary (though scholarly) sources like Dormady's Ph.d thesis) and I gave the warring editors a cleaner base to rebuild the article. All the 4 editors (including myself) were always talking and baby steps had started to put in non-disruptive tiny sourced edits which WP:BRD needs. The spamming SPA Fordx12 felt pincered, he went to Teahouse & convinced Gwickwire to (exceed Teahouse's advisory mandate and) revert all my individual edits by a single one (saying I had removed well sourced material). Gwickwire admittedly failed to a) comprehend what I had done, or b)investigate the extent of the edit-warring by existing WP:COIed SPAs, c)appreciate that the material I trimmed was i)to enable the page to be rebuilt by warring editors through consensus ii)to remove wholesale puffery/OR/BLP allegations/NPOV etc iii) all editors were already talking extensively. In short Gwickwire reverted hastily and disruptively and has continued to disruptively revert by abandoning all pretensions to neutrality by openly siding with the non-RS promoting editor Fordx12 who systematically coordinated tag-teaming and edit-warring against the other editor (including by filing an unwarranted Rfc to browbeat RidjalA from editing). For comparison, a similar 3O+buzz-cut I did at English Standard Version is doing just fine and 4 editors collaborated to trim it by 70%. ] (talk) 07:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by Gwickwire

A user came to me on WP:TEAHOUSE asking for help on why his content was deleted. I went and looked at it, and an editor had removed a very large chunk, I believe over half of the article, that was sourced well and relevant. I then proceeded to revert, and we all got into a discussion. I suggested this as a way for us to get a next opinion. gwickwire | Leave a message 04:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Gwickwire#recent_reversion_of_La_Luz_del_Mundo discussion

Note: As is made clear on his userpage, gwickwire is not an admin. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:46, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Aruna Roy

No extensive discussion prior to filing DR/N as required. Please discuss the content issues on a talkpage extensively. If no consensus is formed, feel free to re-file. Amadscientist (talk) 09:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Windows Server 2012 editions table

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Windows Server 2012 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Codename Lisa (talk · contribs)
• Jasper Deng (talk · contribs)
• JetBlast (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute started almost a month ago, when I contested the use of colors in Windows Server 2012 editions table. The table lists the differences between different editions of Windows Server 2012 and uses color key; but I am concerned about the meaning of the colors.

At the lower half of the table, green is used for "Yes" (meaning that the feature is present), red is used for "No" (meaning that the feature is absent) and yellow is used for "Partial" (meaning that the feature is present only to some extents). But at the upper section, where silvery gray, light red, green, cyan and yellow are used, I cannot logically associate a clear-cut meaning with light red and cyan.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

See this permanent link: Talk:Windows Server 2012 § Color guide in editions table We have been discussing this issue for 15 days now. All three of us agree that consensus is weak but there has been no response to our RfC or other notices.

How do you think we can help?

This part of DRN request is the most difficult part; especially, because if I knew the answer to this question, I wouldn't have been here.

Opening comments by Jasper Deng

Opening comments by JetBlast

I am not getting involved really. It isnt a "Dispute" I just happened to make comment on the original discussion. --JetBlast (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Windows Server 2012 editions table discussion

• Dispute resolution noticeboard
• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution