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• WT:NRHP

MPS info in tables or not?

Recently, when I've worked on the state/county/city lists, I've added information about Multiple Property Submissions to the Summary column. There's quite a bit of work involved in this, but I thought it was worth it since (a) this information is included in the weekly new listing announcements published by the NPS and (b) the MPS documents might provide additional historical context for listings that might not be included in each site's nomination form. However, shortly after I added this information to the northern Cincinnati list, Nyttend reverted my edits with the edit summary "Those comments make the column too wide; restoring standard hidden comments". I had some back and forth with Nyttend this past week via our talk pages, but we were unable to reach a compromise. So I'm bringing it to the community here to get some other views. I don't want to continue doing all this work if it's subject to being reverted or if the community thinks this information doesn't belong in the tables.

For posterity's sake and to save you the trouble of clicking over to our talk pages, here's most of our talk page conversation:

Sanfranman59 I recently put in a good deal of work adding information about Multiple Property Submissions in the Summary column of the northern Cincinnati list. The only explanation you gave for reverting my work was the edit summary "Those comments make the column too wide; restoring standard hidden comments". I don't get it. First off, I think table column widths are mostly dictated by the width and resolution of one's monitor. The column widths looked fine to me. Second, are there guidelines somewhere of which I'm not aware that limit the width of a column in a table?

It seems to me that including the MPS information in the tables is valuable because it can help in article development. I've made adding this information one of the things I routinely do when I add new listings. If you feel strongly that this information doesn't belong in the tables, perhaps we can kick it around a little at WT:NRHP and get some other views?

As for the hidden comments, they really serve no purpose other than adding unnecessary bytes to each page. It's pretty clear from the row header ("|Description=") that one is supposed to enter a description there. It seems odd to me that you apparently find those hidden comments more useful than the MPS information.

Nyttend For one thing, the point of the column is that we summarise the site, either with a citation to somewhere, or with the most important cited information from the article; the MPS bits that you added aren't cited here and aren't part of the most important information from the article. Perhaps more importantly, the MPS bits mean nothing to pretty much every reader; even when we do cite this information, it's at best trivial and at worst confusing to the reader who doesn't understand why we mention it.

Sanfranman59 I disagree that the MPS information is trivial. I don't think the information is any more trivial than noting when the building was constructed, the architect or the architectural style. It's among the information that the NPS includes in the weekly new listing announcements, so they clearly don't consider it to be trivial. MPS documents provide historical context for the sites that are part of the multiple submission. This information should be of interest to editors who wish to create articles about a given listing. When adding this information to a list, I provide a link to the WP article that describes what a Multiple Property Submission, Multiple Resource Area and Thematic Resource is. I don't understand why you think a reader would find this confusing. Can you elaborate?

As for citing sources, as you know, the source for most of the information we present in the tables is the NPS NRIS database. I believe that every list includes at least one reference to the NRIS database. MPS information is included in the NRIS database. In any case, I see that doncram has restored the information I added and has added a source for each MPS note. Does this allay your concerns?

Nyttend Since NRIS provides nothing that automatically goes into the comment field, information in that column needs to be cited except when it's clarifying something (e.g. boundary increases) that simply wouldn't fit in other fields. This is important partially because comments in that field are often sorts of things that can't be derived from NRIS, such as the comments in National Register of Historic Places listings in Beaver County, Pennsylvania. Regarding the inclusion of MPS information in the first place — aside from data from NPS and SHPOs, when have you ever seen anything about the concept of an MPS? The fact of a property being included in one is not important to the property; NPS includes it in NRIS because it's important for their internal purposes, but it's just about completely irrelevant to the history of the property itself. It belongs as a minor note in the article itself, but only because it's relevant to the process of historic designation, which (being relevant but not a huge part of a property's history) should get only a small portion of the article. Moreover, your comment about creating articles is a good reason not to include it: unlike project pages, these lists are places for readers, so resources specifically for editors don't belong. If you really want to include this kind of thing for editors, why don't you just hide it with <!-- and -->? That way, editors can find it without it getting in the way of readers who aren't interested in editing.

Thoughts? --sanfranman59 (talk) 23:46, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the MPS information is only sometimes of use to readers, and of more use to editors. There are plenty of jurisdictions that have an MPS for the entire territory, done (seems to me) as a convenience to the historians compiling the list; these are useful for editors, but beyond the focus on the specific geography, end up being not much more than a laundry list. Themed MPSes (especially if articles exist on them) are, to me, clearly of use to the reader, since they establish a coherent context for a collection of sites. (Now, when am I going to write First Period Houses of Eastern Massachusetts?) Magic♪piano 21:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I am not sure in general; discretion should go to an editor actually developing descriptions. Where there is nothing going on in the description column of a county list-article, as the case in northern Cincinnati, it gives something at least, so i think what you added was fine. But editorially it should eventually yield to other description. About the Northern Cincinnatti list and the Hannaford & Sons TR, I note there exists a category, Category:Samuel Hannaford and Sons Thematic Resources with 57 articles, by the way. --doncram 22:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

How about using a less prominent indication, e.g. a footnote, e.g. in Landmark title column, show: Dinnie Apartments corresponding to Key stated above the table:

as was shown for the Dinnie Apartments item but not yet all others, within this version of the Grand Forks County, ND, list-article a year ago?

I was meaning to indicate all 27(!) items within the 69 item Grand Forks county list that way. However I see that editor Multichill removed the usage in that list-article, before running his conversion to use of nrhprow and nrhpheader, in this diff. Maybe some change in the nrhprow template would be needed to accomodate restoration of that again? --doncram 22:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Multichill also removed fully developed treatment of two MPS's, and completely removed the Key that was set up below the list-table, as appeared in this version of Syracuse NRHP list. I thot that was a good level of common indication of the Ward Wellington Ward architect MPS items. --doncram 22:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Update: Multichill kindly advised me of "name-extra=" feature within the NRHP row template, which allowed me just now to restore footnote links about the architect Ward MPS and about a park landscaping MPS into the List of RHPs in Syracuse list. The footnote links are clickable to bring the reader to a Key identifying what they mean. This is meant as a less-is-more approach to identifying MPS items within a county list.

Sanfranman59 and Nyttend, could you comment on this option? Other comments welcome. --doncram 21:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

One editor's opinion: I prefer some kind of footnote for notes re. MPS's, boundary expansions, etc., to putting that information in the description cell of the table. I'm inclined to agree with Nyttend's point that such information is of more interest to editors than to the general readership.

Per Doncram's suggestion, I checked out the Syracuse page; but on my browser (Chrome), at least, the key symbols weren't clickable. Could I suggest that we use lettered footnotes instead? Unlike symbols, there's a natural order to the alphabet, which will make it easier for people to follow notes should there be more than half a dozen or so. Ammodramus (talk) 23:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Links within List of RHPs in Syracuse made clickable for more browsers now. Does it work now in Chrome? It had worked in MSIE, but not in Firefox, with links to "#key" but where the anchor was actually named "Key". Changing anchor to be named "key" makes it work in Firefox now too. --doncram 03:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Since others object to including the MPS info in the Summary column, I will cease and desist on that front. As for using the "name-extra" feature to footnote the MPS info, that works for me (Nyttend, what do you think of this?). I developed a semi-automated method of adding MPS info to the Summary column that made it relatively easy (and less error-prone) to add that information. I'm not sure whether or not I'll be able to come up with a similar method for adding the information to the "name-extra" field. If not, I'll probably just refrain from adding it. Thanks for the feedback everyone. --sanfranman59 (talk) 22:49, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Re. Doncram's latest changes to RHPs in Syracuse: The symbols are now clickable in Chrome. However, I still think lettered footnotes would be preferable to asterisks, daggers, double-daggers, etc. For one thing, I assume that after clicking down to a lettered footnote, one could then click to go back to one's place in the text. For another, there's the natural-order thing that I mentioned in my earlier comment. For a county with many sites, there are likely to be many MPSs, boundary expansions, and the like; it'd be better to start with the 26 letters of the alphabet than with a collection of unordered symbols. Ammodramus (talk) 01:11, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sanfranman asked me to comment here several days ago, and I forgot; sorry. I like the idea of the footnotes as they're done on the Syracuse list; they don't get in the way for most readers, who couldn't care less, and they help the occasional reader who really does care. I'd just suggest one change: cut them out of the name column and put them in the numbered column. This is what we've done to mark HDs on the featured NHL lists for Alabama, Indiana, and Michigan. Nyttend (talk) 02:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Nyttend's further point doesn't work. It only makes sense to indicate the MPS on the specific title of the article. Indicating an MPS in the color/number column doesn't work; the keys he refers to in the NHL lists are indications explaining the color, not specific to the item. See the Syracuse list which has examples of both types (explanation of color, and indication of MPS). --doncram 17:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree with Ammodramus about using letters rather than symbols for the clickable symbols. As for boundary increases, I've been in the habit of adding that information to the Location column and offset by a bullet. It seems to me that's where it belongs. For an example, see the Palos Verdes Public Library and Art Gallery and the Puvunga Indian Village Sites entries in National Register of Historic Places listings in Los Angeles County, California. --sanfranman59 (talk) 05:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Boundary increases now being discussed in a different section, below.

On MPS mentions in tables, editor Nyttend has been proceeding occasionally to entirely delete MPS mentions that are in place, despite being aware of this discussion and his note above, supporting a lesser option. When I notice, I revert him, as just now in this diff for Allen County, Indiana. I experience Nyttend's edits as expressing contempt for the consensus in place, that some mention of MPS is highly relevant and appropriate in list-tables. It seems arrogant and offensive for the work of many editors, and especially the hard work of Sanfranman59, to be summarily deleted. Nyttend's M.O. is to implement his deletion edits in conjunction with adding other useful information or before proceeding with other additions, increasing the costs to others who may feel conflicted about losing his other work. My reversion just now loses those additions. This can attract other editors who think think Nyttend's additions must be saved, and who may enter into contention. After many years of this kind of action, I tend to think it is best to simply delete Nyttend's additions, and to allow Nyttend to readd or allow the additions to simply be lost, and not to allow the tactic by one editor to succeed in overriding consensus. This is unpleasant, but I don't know how the NRHP editing community should deal with this otherwise. Comments? --doncram 17:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Same name, same site, different registration number?

I hadn't seen this before on our lists. This one is in National Register of Historic Places listings in DeKalb County, Georgia

• 37 Scottish Rite Hospital for Crippled Children September 4, 2004 321 W. Hill St. 33°45′36″N 84°18′09″W Decatur
• 38 Scottish Rite Hospital for Crippled Children June 17, 1982 321 W. Hill St. 33°45′36″N 84°18′09″W Decatur

Any suggestions?

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 12:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Area expansion in 2004? Acroterion (talk) 13:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

1982 has 5 buildings and 4.8 acres; 2004 has 1 building and 4.8 acres. This may suggest that a building was added in 2004, but without the nominations, I am not sure if we will come to a conclusion. KudzuVine (talk) 16:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Ran into this yesterday, left it alone per KudzuVine: without the noms we cannot determine what/where/why. No real hits on Goggle, either. Thundersnow 19:29, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I've come across an instance or two where a site was listed, then removed, then re-listed. Perhaps this site was removed between 1982 and 2004? It might be worth a call to the Georgia HPO. --sanfranman59 (talk) 01:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Nope, I've looked through my notes trying to find removal notation, but there was none. It's two separate listings. 25or6to4 (talk) 14:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

See 75001438 and 86001640, "Twin Oaks" and "Reily, Robert, House"; they're the same place, Twin Oaks (Wyoming, Ohio). It's not the first time that this has happened. It definitely needs to be treated as a single listing. Nyttend (talk) 13:04, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, in any known cases of this both dates and both refnums should be shown in the article and/or its infobox. At the Twin Oaks (Wyoming, Ohio) article, i thot at first that only one showed, but then see there was a 2nd NRHP infobox embedded in the main NRHP infobox. But it didn't show properly (it weirdly showed two dates added within the 2nd infobox, for example). I just changed it to simply use just one infobox but with two dates in the date added field, and 2 refnums in the refnum field. I think that is better, yes? --doncram 15:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Gibraltar NRHP humor

Hey, at Nyttend's Talk page a note commending his "getting the joke" calls my attention to his new article Gibraltar District School No. 2 and corresponding DYK nomination. I think it is a fun poke at the Gibraltarpedia brouhaha...for which a ban on Gibraltar DYKs on the main page is under discussion in an RFC.

Further, I note Gibraltar (Wilmington, Delaware) (currently a red-link) is a NRHP-listed Colonial Revival house, with NRHP docs available and pic by Smallbones available. I'd defer to anyone already started or planning to develop an article for it, but think it would be fun to develop an article jointly and put it up for DYK. It could possibly be embargoed until December 31, or it could go through. Help in developing an article at User:Doncram/Gibraltar (Wilmington, Delaware), and discussing hooks at its Talk page would be welcomed! cheers, --doncram 13:31, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what's the joke, unless it's my photo - but you should have seen all the good ones I got of the 6 ft stone wall. It looks to me like the article is ready to go, but I wouldn't go for a DYK just for cheap kicks. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

WLM-US Best Picture Winners

The winners of the Best Picture contests have been announced at Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 in the United States/Best Pictures

They are:

1st Place File:The_Cabin_Creek_"Inn".JPG, The Cabin Creek Inn, photographer: Kellejr
The bold red color pops out from the white snow. It is a photographically well shot image with nice composition. And trains are iconic for America.

2nd Place File:Wukoki_Ruin.tif, Wukoki Ruin, photographer: Stephen M Alden
A beautifully lit and well composed shot of the interface of nature and Native American culture.

3rd Place File:Al Mac's Diner-Restaurant Fall River MA 2012.jpg, Al Mac's Diner-Restaurant, photographer: Kenneth C. Zirkel
A quintessential American image. It captures a slice of Americana.

Other top 10 finishers

• File:Kewanee,_Illinois_-_Ryan_Round_Barn_at_Johnson_Sauk_Trail_State_Recreation_Area.JPG, photographer: Ibzumin
• File:St. Alexander Nevsky Chapel.JPG, photographer: Etaohc
• File:Chicago_Theater.jpg, photographer: Raymonst
• File:Vermont_State_House_in_Montpelier.jpg, photographer: Jonathanking
• File:Mount_Rainier_from_above_Myrtle_Falls_in_August.JPG, photographer: Samuel Kerr
• File:Lincoln_Memorial.jpg_(8).jpg, photographer: Erich Robert Joli Weber
• File:Cheoah Hydroelectric Dam Graham Co NC.jpg, photographer: Dantripphoto

Congratulations to all the winners, thanks to everybody who uploaded their work, and special thanks to all folks who helped out making the contest work.

Each of these photos is displayed in an article on the site, but, like any of our articles, they can be improved.

We should have a discussion of how to improve the contest for next year. I'll start that tomorrow. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Just a few statistics: 22,066 photos uploaded by just over 2,000 users (~90% newbies) into Commons:Category:Images from Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 in the United States, with 30 editors uploading over 100 photos each. 5,783 of these files are now used in articles or lists (26.2% of all files in the category), on 2,969 total pages (likely because of use on the county list pages) with 7,678 total uses (from http://toolserver.org/~magnus/ts2/glamorous/ a very useful tool). In all our lists 44673 out of 87770 sites (50.9%) have photos as of Oct 31, up from 38896 (44.63%) photos on Aug. 31, an increase of 5,777 (not all from WLM) (from http://commons.wikimedia.org/Commons:Monuments_database/Statistics ). The "usage" would be higher if we consider the commonscat template on article pages - there was a pretty large number of photos of historic districts where commonscat is quite useful. Numbers, of course, can't tell the whole story, but I'll submit that this was a pretty successful experiment, though it obviously could have been done better in several areas. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

For the database folks out there, there are many useful tools associated with WLM. I just found out about http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm/monuments.php?country=us It gives a list of the number of photos (or number of photographers) by site, with the site being listed by reference number. Some ref number are red (but not red links), which indicates there is no article on the site, but WLM photos are available (and how many). Search for the ref number on Misplaced Pages or go to the photo, to find the site and you are ready to start a new article with photos. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Along a similar line at User:Smallbones/list_articles we had a drive to get new articles related to the 500 pix sent to the jury. 54 were created, so that all the top-10 pix now have articles. At least 37 red links are still there for the 500 pix. So you can still start an article where you know there is at least one good photo. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

26 new NHLs announced

While we were all distracted by WLM, the Interior Department went ahead a couple of weeks ago and announced the 26 newest NHLs. It's basically almost everything from the last two meetings, which I had posted about previously here and here. I have gone ahead and appropriately amended the New York lists and the Stepping Stones article; others might want to do the same for their states (I see Greendale Historic District has also already been updated).

I also reviewed the noms for this fall's meeting again. I note that Yaddo, the artistic retreat up in Saratoga, has been added to the list of possible NHLs. Daniel Case (talk) 03:02, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the note; I'd been wondering how long they'd take for the Republic and hadn't paid that much attention to the others. I'll try to get a Western Branch Home photo next time I'm in Dayton. Has anyone seen them on recent listings? Nyttend (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Never mind that; they were in this week's listings. Funny; you'd never know that Columbus, Indiana was located in Ashland County, Ohio! Nyttend (talk) 05:28, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Thematic group and elements

Do all of the items on a thematic group list get put into their county lists? Example: "Highway Bridges Owned by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Department of Transportation TR" has 150+ bridges on it, each with a different number. T-49 of the TR is NRIS# 88000817, Bridge in Washington Township, already on the York county list. I just labeled a picture of T-48 (NRIS# 88000795), File:Bridge between East Manchester and Newberry Townships 1.jpg, also in York but not on the list. Should all 150+ bridges be listed? Thundersnow 02:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe they all are NRHP listed the same as any other NRHP site is listed - certainly it's been the practice for our tables. On this one User:Ruhrfisch should be contacted as the expert on these bridges (which I'll do).

I'm wondering if we should expand the discussion. Thundersnow is engaged in a great project here of putting NRIS#s on all NRHP photos. I don't think anybody wants to say "don't do this!" But I'm also not sure that this is a priority of the project, or that we should all let Thundersnow take on this near infinite project all by himself, without helping. In short, I'm not criticizing anybody but just confused while being amazed at Thundersnow's energy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:38, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

It was a procedural, "yes/no" question, the bridge expert is not needed unless y'all want to redefine procedure.

I like doing the tagging. I like visiting historic buildings but I am not all that knowledgeable about history or geography; what and what not to do here confuse me; the Commons NRHP category structure makes my head hurt. I can track down eight digits, though. I do not have energy, I am just stubborn. It does not have to be a priority for the project - it just has to be a priority for me. Yours in gnomish edits.... Thundersnow 02:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, here's some possible help. A) we ask people to include the NRIS number on their photo uploads. That way it's not a race between you and dozens of other editors to see if they (we) can upload faster than you can add the numbers. But that would suggest B) that we express the NRIS numbers in the tables so that uploaders can find them. They are already in the tables, just not printed out. I'd put them right underneath the listing date (a somewhat related variable) rather than create a new column. Since everybody loves our table format, that's likely to be controversial, but I'd go for it. The NRIS numbers might be useful for something else as well. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

The NRIS# tag on images is for ErfgoedBot; it does not do anything for editors (yet, at any rate. If only the US had a database like Canada...). Correct categories are what the humans need, and is the most confusing (imo) part of uploading NRHP images. Apparently the button was useful for both but I was one who hated how it looked. Form vs function: I bet Britannica never had this problem. Thundersnow 05:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Back to the bridge: I just finished going through the TR list. I found only 2 other listings that were not on already on WP, but I cannot find NRIS#s for them. I will add "Bridge between East Manchester and Newberry Townships" to the York County list, since it does have the number and is already on List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in Pennsylvania. Thundersnow 05:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to be slow in responding. Thanks for all your hard work Thundersnow! The NRHP has had at least two ways of listing multiple similar sites in one go. TR (Thematic Resources) were first and they were replaced by MPS (Multiple Property Submissions). Each property in a TR or MPS is listed on the National Register on its own and has its own NRHP number and should be listed separately in the county lists. I am in favor of including the NRIS # in photos and the the county tables.

At one point I was working on an article on the Pennsylvania highway bridges TR in a sandbox, but then I stopped working on it after a helpful discussion here - see here. My guess is that the "2 other listings that were not on already on WP" were ones I had problems with too - looking at my sandbox there were four bridges in the TR that were problematic (T-35, T-48, MA-5 and SU-2: see the bottom of my sandbox). It has been a while, but I recall writing to the National Park Service about a NRHP site that slipped through the cracks (was listed in a TR, but not in the Register - not sure if it was one of these). Looking at Pennsylvania covered bridge county TR/MPS lisitings I found a covered bridge that seems to be in the same position (eligible for the rgister but not listed for some reason) - I will post on that separately below. Ruhrfisch _><>° 20:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I find Elkman's NRHP tools to be very useful for tracking down refnums. It will generate a list which includes the refnums of all listings that are part of a given TR/MRA/MPS (MRA = Multiple Resource Area ... another term that the NPS has used over the years for the same concept ... I think). The way I know to do this is to run a "Query by county" from the main Elkman page. In this case, you could use York, PA since you know that at least one of the listings that's part of the TR of interest is in that county. This generates a table with all listings in the county. In the 'multname' column of the table, if you click on "query properties", it will generate a list for you. If you click on "generate list", it will generate Wiki markup output. But be aware that the database on which Elkman's tools are built is only as recent as the most recent version that was available for download on the NPS website. And even that version isn't available now. Their database download page has said "Download entire database will be available again soon." for at least several months now.

(the rest of this essay is about Commons categories, which Thundersnow mentioned as a perfectly understandable source of confusion and vexation ... if this generates any discussion, perhaps it should be moved under a different section heading?)

As for the NRHP-related categories over on Commons, I agree that they can be pretty difficult to decipher. One of my WP pastimes is to categorize NRHP photos over there, so I'm reasonably familiar with the lay of the land. But there are plenty of organizational challenges. In general, I try to include any NRHP geography-specific and building-type-specific categories that apply. (You can find all the building-type-specific categories here.) In some cases, there are categories that cross both of these dimensions (e.g. 'Houses on the National Register of Historic Places in San Francisco, California' or 'Buildings of religious function on the National Register of Historic Places in California'). Other categories I routinely add to images include specific geographic location (assuming that's not captured by one of the NRHP categories I've added), the year the structure was built and sometimes also the architectural style if I have a source that give me that information (e.g. an NRHP nom form). If the subject of the photo is a house, building of religious function or a bridge, I generally add 3 year-built-related categories (e.g., 'Built in California in 1913', '1910s houses in California' and 'Houses built in the United States in 1913'). When a structure was originally constructed over several years, I use the year completed for the category.

One mistake people frequently make with the categories is that they put photos in both parent and child categories. This results in over-categorization. I know I did this when I first started working with categories over there until someone straightened me out on the concept. For example, you shouldn't categorize a photo in 'San Jose, California', in 'Santa Clara County, California' and in 'California'. It should only be categorized in the most specific category (in this case, 'San Jose, California'). Similarly, a photo should not be placed in both 'National Register of Historic Places in Santa Clara County, California' and in 'Santa Clara County, California', since the former is a child category of the latter. But it is appropriate for a photo to be placed in both 'National Register of Historic Places in Santa Clara County, California' and 'Morgan Hill, California' since neither is the parent category of the other.

Another area of confusion is historic districts and contributing properties thereof. At this point, there are 'Historic districts in ' categories for every state and 'Historic district contributing properties in ' for almost every state. But the NRHP categories aren't currently included in that structure, although there is a 'Historic districts on the National Register of Historic Places' category that's a child of 'Historic districts in the United States'. It seems to me that each 'Historic districts in ' category should have a 'National Register of Historic Places historic districts in ' child category. But that's not the case now. My habit has been to place photos of NRHP historic district contributing properties in the appropriate 'Historic district contributing properties in ' category, but not in 'National Register of Historic Places in '. If there are multiple photos of contributing properties from the same historic district, I create a category with that historic district's name. I make that category a child of 'Historic districts in ', 'National Register of Historic Places in ' and other categories, as appropriate. (See Category:Alviso Historic District and it's contents for an example of this.) Unfortunately (imho), there are many, many photos of contributing properties that are categorized in 'National Register of Historic Places in ' but that are not individually listed on the NRHP. This seems like misinformation to me. --sanfranman59 (talk) 00:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Misspelt

I got a fairly interesting note on my talkpage User_talk:Smallbones#Linton_Stevens_Covered_Bridge_Misspelled from somebody I'd never heard of before concerning spelling. No problem at all, but I'm wondering if anybody's seen something like this before. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:28, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I got an email a while ago with a somewhat similiar situation. Chandlery Corner was misspelled as "Qlandlery Corner" (still is in the NRHP). I only noted the change in WP:NRIS info issues PA and fixed it in the list. However, the NPS was never involved. Niagara ​​ 23:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Two listings, one entry

I recently split the article Virginia and Truckee RR. Engines No. 18, The Dayton; and No. 22, The Inyo into two article Virginia and Truckee 18 Dayton and Virginia and Truckee 22 Inyo. It didn't seem logical to keep them together (notable on their own and one was moved to Virginia City). How would one go about linking to both articles with "NRHP row" in National Register of Historic Places listings in Carson City, Nevada? Also, should another entry be added to National Register of Historic Places listings in Nevada#Storey County to reflect the presence of one of them? Niagara ​​ 23:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)\

Same thing with Hiram M. Chittenden Locks and Lake Washington Ship Canal in National Register of Historic Places listings in Seattle, Washington. Nominated and listed as one entity but two separate articles. Einbierbitte (talk) 21:23, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Copyright on images of historical markers

This is just a general FYI for anyone who might include a photo of an historical plaque on any article. I just ran across Commons:Deletion requests, which would indicate there is a copyright issue in play. These are not my images, and I have no idea who took most of them. However, there are a couple of west Texas ones I vaguely remember seeing, and thinking they were obviously somebody just playing tourist and snapping the photo. However, it's something to think about if an editor has any kind of marker photos for NRHP articles posted on Misplaced Pages somewhere. — Maile (talk) 23:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Duplicate entries

I just noticed that there are duplicate entries for NRHP Reference #77000919 at Oxford Furnace, New Jersey and Oxford Furnace. I think that these articles should be combined. --Marcbela (talk) 14:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Herndon Depot Museum

I recently added some NRHP details to the Herndon Depot Museum article. Does anybody know what kinds of improvements are needed there? ---------User:DanTD (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi DanTD. Does the tip posted at wp:NRHPhelpVA provide enough information for you, about how to add the NRHP nomination document conveniently? I would welcome feedback/addition to that advice section about Virginia documents within the NRHP help page. About the Herndon Depot Museum, it looks to me like NRHP document, photos, and map are all available, under the Fairfax County section, in the Virginia website linked from the tips sheet (NRHP help webpage). Does this help? --doncram 21:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Spokane parking garage on pending list

On yesterday's list of pending nominations announced by the NPS is a City Ramp Garage in what appears to be downtown Spokane. I wondered if this was a parking garage, [http://www.spokesman.com/video/2011/may/10/city-ramp-renovation/ and indeed it is.

So, if it makes it, would it be the first parking garage listed? It looks like its Art Deco architecture is the reason for the listing, rather than any place in the history of auto transport in this country (which I'd argue is significant, after reading Joel Garreau's Edge City ... if anything, parking lots and garages tell us more about how the automobile changed life and reordered public space than any roads). Since we're seeing some types of properties like pet cemeteries getting listed, and we already have McDonald's signs listed, it would be interesting to know. Daniel Case (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

A search using Elkman's property name search tool returns 4 listings with 'parking' in the name:

• Gimbels Parking Pavilion (Milwaukee, WI)
• Massachusetts Avenue Parking Shops (Washington, DC)
• Orr Roadside Parking Area (Orr, MN)
• Pickwick Hotel, Office Building, Parking Garage and Bus Terminal (Kansas City, MO)

--sanfranman59 (talk) 18:34, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

The Building at 816 South Grand Avenue in Los Angeles was listed in 2004. It is notable as being one of the first parking structures built in the US Einbierbitte (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

The Ben Lomond Hotel Garage, built in 1929 in Ogden, Utah, was just listed this August. Ntsimp (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm hoping these sites won't get torn down and replaced by parking lots! There are at least a couple "Automobile Rows" from the 30s and 40s which are HDs of auto showrooms and repair-garages, e.g. in Chicago and Aurora, Illinois. Not exactly the same things of course. Similarly I love some of the little gas stations, e.g. in Davenport, IA and West Nowhere, Nebraska. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Boundary adjustments

Does anyone here have an objection to the way I've chosen to add boundary adjustment information to our NRHP lists? This past week I had a rather frustrating back-and-forth with User:Nyttend about this. He does object to what I'm doing. See his comments on my talk page for his reasoning and my comments on his talk page for mine. The first row in the table below is what I've been doing; the second row is his preference. I won't continue what I'm doing if others in the community find it objectionable.

As far as I know, we don't have a documented standard for adding this information. Perhaps we should?

	Name on the Register	Image	Date listed	Location	City or town	Description
7	Central Bethlehem Historic District		May 5, 1972 (#72001131)	Bounded by Main, Nevada, and East Broad Streets, and the Lehigh River • Boundary increase (listed November 7, 1988, refnum 88000452): Roughly bounded by Walnut St., Linden St., Lehigh River, and New St. 40°37′06″N 75°22′56″W / 40.618333°N 75.382222°W / 40.618333; -75.382222 (Central Bethlehem Historic District)	Bethlehem	Extends into Lehigh County
60	Euclid Avenue Historic District		June 28, 2002 (#02000702)	Roughly bounded by Public Square, Euclid Ave. to E. 17th St., and E. 21st St.; also 205 St. Clair Ave., 1370 Ontario St., and 1796-1808 E. 13th St. 41°30′02″N 81°41′12″W / 41.500556°N 81.686667°W / 41.500556; -81.686667 (Euclid Avenue Historic District)	Cleveland	Second set of addresses represents a boundary increase of May 29, 2007

--sanfranman59 (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Creating a proper standard for this common situation is way past due, is very much needed. There are cases of multiple boundary increases and cases having both increases and decreases, too. Thanks for raising this and giving these examples to comment upon. I don't think either example is perfect; it seems to me:

1. that the two dates of listing (original and increase) should both appear in the date column,
2. that both reference numbers should be included, but both be hidden in the English wikipedia version. The NRHP row template would need to be modified to accomodate a 2nd, 3rd, 4th reference number. German and other wikipedias could choose to show both; the English version in the future could possibly choose to show both. Our lists should be clear, at least in their innards, that this is the row that covers whatever reference number.
3. that both original and boundary increase/decrease location info should appear in the location column, with clarity about which is which

--doncram 22:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

My tuppence: the average reader of a list of entries probably doesn't care about boundary changes, so only show the current bounds (i.e. the second option, but omitting the comment). If multiple refnums are involved, include them all (they're hidden anyway), and maybe add an html comment explaining what they represent. An article can go into whatever detail the editor deems suitable to describe current and historical boundaries. Magic♪piano 00:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think entering multiple numbers in the refnum= parameter mess with some of the functionality that User:Multichill sold us on when we went to the {{NRHP row}} system a year or so ago. --sanfranman59 (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll invite Multichill to comment; the NRHP row template could be revised to accomodate an "otherrefnums=" field perhaps if the refnum field must be kept cleanly as one number. --doncram 16:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Magicpiano on this: I suspect that most readers coming to such a list are interested in the current addresses/boundaries. I'd suggest putting boundary changes and the like into the footnotes, where the information would be available to an editor working on an article, but where it wouldn't add noise to the address- and description cells in the table.

I consult these articles when I'm looking for places to photograph, and it's easier for me if there's nothing in the address cell but the address; otherwise, especially in urban areas, it's harder to scan a page to see which sites might be close together. Ammodramus (talk) 05:03, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Boundary adjustments represent current addresses/boundaries. In my opinion, it's misleading not to include boundary adjustments in the location column. If you're going to take photos to represent an historic district, it really ought to be of contributing properties. In most cases, this can't be determined simply by looking at the brief boundary descriptions in the new listings announcements. You need to go to the nomination forms or other sources. If you want to see which listings are close together, do what I do and generate a map from the coordinates in the table. I save the map in Google Maps, bring it up on my smart phone and use the navigation feature to direct me to each site. --sanfranman59 (talk) 08:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Certainly, the addresses/boundaries given in the location column should reflect boundary increases. However, there's no reason why it needs to give the history of the boundaries: what they were initially, how and when they were increased. That's not information that tells the reader where the place is; and for someone scanning the column quickly checking addresses, it makes it harder to spot the address amidst the other information.

Is there a reason not to put the boundary-history information in a footnote? In particular, would it significantly complicate the task of entering new sites and revising old ones? Sanfranman does a tremendous amount of work keeping the lists up to date, and I don't want to make extra work for him.

The smart-phone idea sounds clever, but I tend to operate closer to the clay-tablets end of the technology spectrum. Also, one of the things I'm looking for when I'm scanning the address list is the parity of the street number: that generally tells me whether a place is on the sunlit side of the street. I'm not just looking for "places close to 8th and Euclid"; my search criteria are more like "close to 8th and Euclid, odd addresses on numbered avenues, even addresses on named streets". Ammodramus (talk) 13:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

NRHP list-article delisted section using multiple types of dates usefully:

	Name on the Register	Image	Date listed/removed	Location	City or town	Description
1	Hotel Roberts		July 26, 1979 listed, April 28, 2005 removed (#79002516)	192 S. University Ave.	Provo	Historic Mission-style hotel built in 1882 that served as a landmark and center of Provo social activity for much of the early 20th century. Demolished in 2004.
6	Spanish Fork Fire Station	Upload image	October 22, 1996 (delisted) April 1, 1985 (listed) (#85000818)	365 N. Main St.	Spanish Fork

Non-NRHP list-article section using built and NRHP-listed and NRHP-C-listed types of dates usefully:

	Building	Image	Dates	Location	City, State	Description
4	Masonic Temple (Berkeley, California)		1905 built 1982 NRHP-listed	2105 Bancroft Way and 2295 Shattuck Ave. 37°52′5″N 122°15′58″W / 37.86806°N 122.26611°W / 37.86806; -122.26611 (Masonic Temple (Berkeley, California))	Berkeley, California	Classical Revival style, built in 1905. The ground floor of the building is currently occupied by a FedEx Kinko's store while the remaining floors are used by University of California, Berkeley.
5	Masonic Temple (Ferndale, California)		1891 built NRHP-C-listed 1994	212 Francis 40°34′30.77″N 124°15′55.53″W / 40.5752139°N 124.2654250°W / 40.5752139; -124.2654250 (Masonic Temple (Ferndale, California))	Ferndale, California	Eastlake-Stick architecture built in 1891. It is used as a Masonic Hall. Contributing building in NRHP-listed Ferndale Main Street Historic District

I am moved by suggestions that the location information does not need to describe too carefully which portion was original vs. increased, at the list-article table entry. The more detailed information can be developed more fully in the NRHP infobox of the linked individual article, I agree.

The multiple dates easily fit and are important to include in the date column, however, IMHO. Consider example of our secondary tables of formerly listed places, which I think routinely include both listed and delisted dates where available, as in 2 List of RHPs in Utah County items inserted above. Consider also extract from List of Masonic buildings in the United States which, like many other similar list-articles, mentions built date and NRHP listing date, if any. There's too much wasted space in the date column and unnecessary burden on description column, if the date columnn is not used fully. --doncram 16:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

And, another prescription related to this, which I see, is that we really need to start the articles for all NRHP-listed historic districts. For the many with boundary changes, the changes can/should be described properly in the individual articles, and that would take some pressure off reflecting this info at the NRHP-list articles. For all historic districts, there is need for many pictures, not just the one that serves at the list-article. Set up the articles now to receive whole tables of the contributing properties with pics, or open galleries of pics, then the pics will come. IMO it was a problem in the WLM photo drive that there weren't HD articles set up ready to receive multiple pictures in many cases, and we weren't ready to further set up linked HD-specific commons categories where needed to hold even more pictures, when lots of pics were made available. Receiving photos is more a problem for HDs than for non-HDs. Let's just start all the HD articles now (and especially those with boundary increases to handle)! :) --doncram 18:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

So I'm clearly pretty far off base with what I've been doing for months now. It looks like I've got a lot of self-reverting and cleaning up to do. However, I'm not clear at this point what's being proposed. Can someone propose something concrete and provide an example? Also, it would be nice to get some other opinions. Is anyone else out there willing to chime in?

In the meantime, I'll refrain from adding any new boundary adjustment information to the tables. --sanfranman59 (talk) 03:42, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Need a dedicated article/navbox/category for works of Frederick Law Olmsted?

I'm asking the above at "Talk:Frederick Law Olmsted#Dedicated article/navbox/category for Olmsted's works?". Anyone with opinions on this, please go there - thanks.--A bit iffy (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment: Thundersnow removing images

As doncram has mentioned Nytend in particular and "another couple editors" in general; bringing it here in the form of an RFC; and failed to watch my talk page as they said they would, I am bringing a discussion from my talk page to here. The original is on my talk page at Bullock'27s Pasadena pictures and other pic deletions. Also of interest is User talk:Thundersnow#Blue Hills Headquarters, etc. and, I suppose, somewhere on Nyttend's talk page. Thundersnow 16:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Bullock's Pasadena pictures and other pic deletions

doncram Hi, i don't understand your removal of pictures from Bullock's Pasadena article. I reversed your edit by this edit restoring the pics. Multiple pictures certainly help in an article. In this case, you removed a picture that showed curved eaves and other elements of the place's Streamline Moderne architecture that I think is why it is NRHP-listed. Streamline moderne is a style evocative of ocean liners' design; see Normandie Hotel, about a hotel modelled after the original SS Normandie ocean liner, as one extreme example. The pic you left in the infobox doesn't convey anything about that architecture. I'll watch here and would see any reply.

Thanks for all your work adding newly available pics to many articles. cheers, --doncram 16:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Thundersnow I disagree that multiple images help articles, especially when the images do nothing to explicate the text. The whole building is an example of that architectural style. Adding images of details without excyclopedic context about those details is using an article as a gallery, and that is not good. Thundersnow 05:28, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

doncram To follow up, that is horrible. The one pic you had kept shows hardly anything of the architecture, and does not convey streamline moderne at all. --doncram 23:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I noticed and reverted your removal of images at excellent article Casa Paoli. I hadn't seen your reply above about the Pasadena article. If that is your position, that you believe multiple images don't help articles (?!), and if you are proceeding to remove images in more cases, then that is quite alarming. Your removal of pics in the pasadena article reflected ignorance about the architecture involved. It would be one thing for you to use some tag to call for more captioning, or call for explanation, but it is destructive to simply remove images in articles in a general way.

Have you done this in many articles? I am concerned that I or others are going to have to go through a lot of work to review your other contributions. --doncram 16:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

doncram Okay, i am officially horrified at what you have done to numerous articles, going back to November 1, in terms of your removing hard-won photos added through a lot of work by editors such as myself. All seemed to be NRHP articles. I came across several articles where you removed photos of mine, actually, but I am perhaps most horrified at your removing Historic American Buildings Survey photos by Jet Lowe and others, that other editors had carefully added to articles, which provide great perspective about the changes or similarities in NRHP properties over many years. And you seem to routinely delete galleries. Obviously multiple pics help convey more about a property. I tried to be careful for a while in reviewing your work to ensure that other small changes you made were re-added in my reversions, but eventually i just switch to reverting all.

I believe you are well-meaning but misguided. I think you might have a different view, coming from your work placing newly uploaded photos, that you think photos are cheap and easy to obtain. That is opposite my view and that of many editors, that we have gone through hell to get places and take photos, or to research and find photos, and that we are seeking to illustrate articles. You cannot blithely disregard this effort and just drop useful stuff.

So, for now, could you agree to stop removing any photos whatsover from any article, please. I would like to ask for you to consult with others, e.g. at wt:NRHP, if you think any removal is possibly justified. You may well not want to take my advice; you have a right to disagree with my view; however, if you do disagree, would you agree to have some review, I suppose in the form of a discussion at wt:NRHP possibly to be identified as a RFC. But I will say, it is not just my concern. I saw, somewhere, perhaps at User talk:Nyttend, another couple editors expressing concern at your deletion of photos. I was not aware of the scope of what you have been doing, and perhaps the failure of others to give you feedback, until now. I'll watch here for your reply.

For the record, I have gone back through your contributions to November 1, and reversed your deletions at articles including:

23:29, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+77)‎ . .Moratock Park ‎ (Undid revision 523513599 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:28, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+198)‎ . .Old Alton Bridge ‎ (Undid revision 523693124 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:27, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+443)‎ . .Mappa Hall ‎ (Undid revision 523494611 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:26, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+680)‎ . .Fort Snelling ‎ (Undid revision 523455446 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:23, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+1,108)‎ . .Camp Springs House ‎ (Undid revision 524170047 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:22, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+80)‎ . .Union Church of Pocantico Hills ‎ (Undid revision 524629291 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top)  
23:21, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+160)‎ . .Hibernian Hall (Boston, Massachusetts) ‎ (Undid revision 520838051 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:15, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+156)‎ . .Wang Theatre ‎ (Undid revision 520840823 by Thundersnow (talk) it was not marked sourced. indicate source needed or something, don't randomly delete.) (top) 
23:14, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+112)‎ . .Citi Performing Arts Center ‎ (Undid revision 520840975 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:13, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+140)‎ . .Paris Cemetery ‎ (Undid revision 520848118 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:12, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+89)‎ . .Bowsher Ford Covered Bridge ‎ (Undid revision 520849050 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:12, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+100)‎ . .Taylors Falls Public Library ‎ (Undid revision 520851206 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:10, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+482)‎ . .F. M. Howell and Company ‎ (Undid revision 520854740 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:09, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+281)‎ . .John C. Breckinridge Memorial ‎ (Undid revision 520855192 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:03, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+110)‎ . .Brooklandwood ‎ (Undid revision 521114599 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:03, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+80)‎ . .Fisher Hill Reservoir ‎ (Undid revision 521115271 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:02, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+270)‎ . .Brooklyn Borough Hall ‎ (Undid revision 521121001 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
23:00, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+106)‎ . .Burden Ironworks Office Building ‎ (Undid revision 522086121 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
22:59, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+284)‎ . .Burden Iron Works ‎ (Undid revision 522086162 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
22:58, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+65)‎ . .Burnt Cabins Gristmill Property ‎ (note it is a HABS photo by Jet Lowe that was previously deleted) (top) 
22:57, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+70)‎ . .Burnt Cabins Gristmill Property ‎ (Undid revision 522089731 by Thundersnow (talk) undo, but re-add some info added)
22:18, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+535)‎ . .Bodie Island Light ‎ (Undid revision 520591207 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
22:13, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+126)‎ . .Warwick Furnace Farms ‎ (Undid revision 520969884 by Thundersnow (talk) wrong. i think it is part of the site.) (top) 
21:26, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+175)‎ . .Old Lock Pump House, Chesapeake and Delaware Canal ‎ (restore multiple images) (top) 
21:21, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+91)‎ . .C.G. Meaker Food Company Warehouse ‎ (restore helpful pic) (top) 
21:00, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (-81)‎ . .Crow Canyon Archaeological District ‎ (re-remove one that was added to the infobox) (top) 
20:59, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+197)‎ . .Crow Canyon Archaeological District ‎ (restore images bizarrely removed)
20:57, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+274)‎ . .Camillus Union Free School ‎ (Undid revision 523453624 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
20:56, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+164)‎ . .F. A. Kennedy Steam Bakery ‎ (Undid revision 523451816 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
20:55, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+261)‎ . .Dallas Arboretum and Botanical Garden ‎ (Undid revision 523480466 by Thundersnow (talk) restore images, other) (top) 
20:53, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+85)‎ . .Mont-Joli railway station ‎ (Undid revision 523976401 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
20:51, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+111)‎ . .Camp Sherman Community Hall ‎ (Undid revision 524169547 by Thundersnow (talk)) (top) 
16:17, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+22)‎ . .Captain Robert Bennet Forbes House ‎ (caption) (top) 
16:17, 24 November 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+87)‎ . .Captain Robert Bennet Forbes House ‎ (Undid revision 524633507 by Thundersnow (talk)) 

and previously Bullock's Pasadena and Casa Paoli. Sincerely, --doncram 23:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Thundersnow review

Doncram stated that I removed several of their images, and used "alarming", "concerned" and "officially horrified" to convey disagreement, which leads me to believe they are too involved to review my edits. The only other person to state disagreement to me also said they "can't argue with your point of view." I cannot find any other discussion I was involved in that conveyed disagreement with my deletions. The "failure of others to give you feedback" is ridiculous: it is not a failure to not provide feedback; that "others" have not given me feedback does not mean they should have given me feedback; and the assumption others have disagreed with me if they had. As such, I found doncram's "requests" that I either stop deleting images, get pre-sanctioning of my deletions at this board, get discussed on this board, and/or get an RfC both unwarranted escalation and an attempt to threaten me into doing things their way. None of my edits break Misplaced Pages guidelines or are destructive (doncram's word). As such I will not stop deleting images nor will I get pre-sanctioning for my deletions, until someone can explain to me what I am doing wrong in general (content disputes belong on article talk pages).

I find mention of "hard-won photos" to be specious. It does not matter how or who or why the images got to Wikimedia, the question in general is if those images should be used in articles, and specifically if I can decide if they do.

"multiple pics help convey more about a property": That is true of any item that can be seen and several that cannot (atomic structures come to mind). However Misplaced Pages is not a gallery. The existence of an image does not mean it must be included in an article. Images should be used to show what the text is explaining, and the text should be both notable and sourced. If the text is not there to support the inclusion of an image, the image should not be used.

Examples:

• Casa Paoli: the two images still in the article after my edit were supported by the text; the images of a ceiling and an interior door were not and those were the ones I removed. I had also added a link to the Commons category I had created, as well as formatted the page to place the images near the text they were explaining.
• Bullock's Pasadena: the article is about the building, not explaining the style of the building. The extra images conveyed little to nothing not shown in one image. A different image could be substituted, but three do nothing.
• Moratock Park: the article now has four images of the outside of the building, none of which show anything different from the others except for some trees. I should have left the postcard, but there is no purpose to the repeats.
• Captain Robert Bennet Forbes House: the article has two images of the front of the house with no changes to the building.

I could go on but this is not the place for it. If someone has a question about a specific edit I will answer. Thundersnow 16:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• At the risk of offending everybody, I'll chime in here :-b Are we having fun yet? There have been enough quarrels on this page in the last couple of years to last for decades (I'll plead guilty myself on a couple of them). Nothing I've seen of those quarrels amounts to anything like a moral choice, or something that threatens the project. But not having fun does threaten the project. Editors will be driven away, and we won't be able to accomplish our goals. I'll even single out Doncram here, even though a quick review of Bullock's Pasadena indicates that I agree with him on that article. DC - you better start having some fun, seriously! Getting into multiple arguments hurts the project! And this applies especially when you are right.

As far as the substance of the argument (though it doesn't matter that much), I'll say that I like pictures in articles. Two photos, even in a three line stub, should not be too much. A four picture gallery should be ok, even in a basic three paragraph article. WP:NOTGALLERY is taken much to seriously by some folks these days, and generally editing practice is moving well away from it. Of course we can set up galleries in Commons - see The Flower Book by Edward Burne-Jones as an example where it was useful. Also on that page you can see a slide show app (on Commons only as far as I can make out). I'm wondering whether we can set up something similar for tables or even articles on Misplaced Pages? All the best and start having some fun (that's an order!) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Thundersnow for bravely opening discussion here, including wholesale bringing in the user talk discussion where my language was perhaps too strong. I appreciate that you are completely complying with my request to get some more feedback. I could have, probably should have, been milder in my choice of words at your Talk page and it is fair for you to call me on that here. And I appreciate also Smallbones' request that we/I have fun, and not drag down into driving people away from the WikiProject and from wikipedia in general.

• About technical discussions like this, I am not the only one who thinks we NRHPers need to have occasional discussions about formats of list-articles and sourcing and suitability of photos here, to address emerging or running disagreements elsewhere. No one, me included, should be too very bent out of shape about any such matter. These are all kinda technical. But from time to time it is helpful to have a discussion. One relatively recent one was discussion about some computer-modified photos, where I received the feedback of a pretty clear consensus against use of such photos. Ongoing ones are about handling MPS/TR info in list-articles, and about handling boundary increases/decreases. These are basically boring topics, but it does seem helpful to have discussion when it turns out one or a few editors are systematically working in one direction, where one or a few other editors are going in a different one. It shouldn't matter too much what a standard is, but in many cases a standard, a consensus seems needed to keep the project fun for everyone.

• About the other discussion that I was vague about, it was at current User Talk:Nyttend#How many images in a a stub? (permalink) where I saw JamesLWoodward(sp?) raising the same kind of concern. Do let's discuss some specific cases among these, okay? I wonder if these could be categorized usefully:
  • articles where a historic HABS or other photo is removed upon arrival of a new color recent pic (Captain Robert Bennet Forbes House is one where 1965 facade is shown and then 2009 facade seems quite similar -- i think that is great, in contrast to many cases where I have seen that facades change significantly; Burnt Cabins Gristmill Property where Jet Lowe HABS pic was removed, i think it provided great perspective to keep with the new pic)
  • short articles having 2 pics where Thundersnow dropped one (perhaps C.G. Meaker Food Company Warehouse? 2010 listing and article which i just revisited, where i add NRHP nom doc now available online)
  • other types of articles?
• I do wish to talk about the articles, and what the standards are, and hope we can. --doncram 19:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
• P.S. Would a good compromise be to identify (or create) some tags which indicate that photos are present with no captions or not mentioned adequately in the text? I agree that Thundersnow has a good point with that observation that the usefulness of some photos is not properly supported. --19:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thundersnow, what types of concerns do you observe (what tags could possibly be used)? We can create custom template {{NRHP photo concerns}}, and allow for tags like:

• "Multiple pics somewhat overlapping in topic without explanation"

"Gallery too large, please create/use a linked Commons gallery instead"

others?

And each tag would have a corresponding maintenance category, like Category:NRHP photo concern - unexplained photos Category:NRHP photo concern - Commons cat needed, and be linked from the NRHP To Do list shown at top of this page (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/to do). I personally would very much value your identifying concerns by tagging that could then be addressed by editors. --doncram 20:22, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I utterly resent an editor who has long tangled with me butting in here to complicate matters, commenting directly after me. I removed a comment above; i won't battle if someone else restores it, but I see it providing no help, and I would ask other editors not to condone it. The editor has done more than anyone to fan flames of contention among NRHP editors IMO over many years of contention. The editor has resumed a pattern of stalking my edits, recently opening an AFD which was/is totally unjustified, seems rather to be an assertion of dominance, of right to bedevil me. The post i removed could be considered supportive perhaps of my position, but I perceive the wp:POINTY point to be an assertion of that editor's "right" to follow my edits and complicate. I don't want to hear it. I have repeatedly asked this editor to stop, but the editor continues, including posting at my Talk page against my wishes. I resent the butting in and don't need the "help" if that is what it is meant to seem to be. Again I won't war to re-remove the comment if someone else restores it, but I would prefer if no one did. I am sorry to have baggage, myself, in terms of this long history with this editor. --doncram 22:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

1. ^ Numbers represent an alphabetical ordering by significant words. Various colorings, defined here, differentiate National Historic Landmarks and historic districts from other NRHP buildings, structures, sites or objects.
2. The eight-digit number below each date is the number assigned to each location in the National Register Information System database, which can be viewed by clicking the number.
3. Weekly Register Lists, 1985, p.47
4. Cite error: The named reference nris was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. "Main Street Walk, Ferndale, California". Ferndale Museum. 2011. Retrieved 12 December 2011. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• Project-Class National Register of Historic Places pages
• NA-importance National Register of Historic Places pages
• Project-Class National Register of Historic Places articles of NA-importance
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists