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Question about first paragraph

Hello all!, this is my first time on a Misplaced Pages discussion page (I've been a Wiki reader for many years now). I'll go to my point: there is a phrase in the first paragraph that I think it's biased. It says: "Despite its defeat, Argentina still pursues its claim". I think that is biased to a viewpoint in which the winner is the true owner of something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldemaro (talk • contribs) 07:10, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The word "owner" is not used in that sentence. When a country loses a war, the assumption is that the winner obtains whatever was contested in the conflict through a treaty (regardless of right or wrong). Hence the word "despite" to contrast the logical assumption with a reality. Nothing biased is meant by it. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Aldemaro. The word "despite" should be replaced by "after" or something similar, something more neutral. ~~Ignaciobm~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignaciobm (talk • contribs) 16:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I also agree. I do not support the use of the word "despite" as needed to "contrast the logical assumption" "...that the winner obtains whatever was contested in the conflict through a treaty...". In my opinion, this assumption is not logical. You can only "assume" something when it happens most of the time, and contendents do not give up their claims after being defeated, even if victors impose their terms. History is full of examples, like Taiwan who hasn't give up its claim towards Continental China after losing the civil war, Arab nations that still keep the claims over Israel in their constitution after losing several wars, Republican Spain maintained a government in exile and all its claims after losing the civil war against Franco, France kept its claim over the mainland after Germany invaded and controlled it during WWII, The Northern Alliance kept its claim over all of Afghanistan despite losing 95% of it to the Taliban prior to 9/11, and there are countless territorial claims that still exist and have not been given up despite losing a war. So, I don't believe that thinking one will drop a claim after being defeated in war is a logical assumption, hence I support changing the word "despite" for "after" or something more appropriate. 190.224.234.189 (talk) 01:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the examples you bring up all contradict the logic behind winning and losing. Hence, in all of these cases, the word "despite" applies with perfection. Example: Despite Germany effectively took control over France and established a puppet regime centered around Vichy, the French government in exile continued to claim control over the mainland. Again, nothing insulting or wrong is meant by the usage of "despite"; it is simply a correct usage of the English language.

In fact, perhaps the best example is for you is the one which you bring up: "The Northern Alliance kept its claim over all of Afghanistan despite losing 95% of it to the Taliban prior to 9/11." Regards.--MarshalN20 | 04:51, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you in that "despite" is a proper word to use in a sentence that contradicts what would normally be the "logical" outcome. I just don't find it logical to assume that a contendent will drop its claim after losing a conflict. That's why I came up with all those examples... My point of view is that when there are so many examples of "X" happening "despite" "Y", maybe "X" isn't really such a strange thing to happen, even when "Y". So maybe "after" or another word could be more appropriate than "despite". I dont find "despite" insulting or wrong, and I think that the sentence can be understood as it is, but since this is an encyclopedia, I just thought the wording could be improved to meet the standards. Regards. 190.2.107.79 (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

The term "after" does not provide the appropriate grammatical structure to the sentence. Synonyms for "despite" (according to Microsoft) include: In spite of; regardless of; notwithstanding; even though; even with; in the face of; although. If the term "despite" does not meet the standards of an encyclopedia, the aforementioned options are all available to replace it. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 15:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

"regardless of its defeat, Argentina still pursues its claim" sounds better IMO --190.229.141.3 (talk) 01:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It does have a more academic sound to it. I agree with the change. I suppose this is not a controversial change.--MarshalN20 | 01:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I note that in many of the IPs examples above, there was no peace treaty or similar document to end the war. China and Taiwan are still at war, Arab countries (mostly) still don't recognise Israel, let alone sign treaties with it, Republican Spain didn't sign a note of surrender, etc. Argentina and Britain ended their state of war. I don't see the point of changing to "regardless" from "despite", as they mean the same thing, but I do agree it doesn't seem controversial. CMD (talk) 15:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

"Liberation"

This term "liberation" is troubling, particularly as it conflicts points of view on the subject. Contrary to the Huffington Post article, which claims I support the term, I actually wrote it in quotes because I do not see it as correct. Here is an example of Argentines claiming they "liberated" the Falkland Islands: "Argentina invaded the remote FALKLAND ISLANDS, proudly proclaiming that Las Islas Malvinas (as Argentines call the islands) had been "liberated" and restored to the Argentine motherland" (Page 641). I do not know what term could be used to replace "liberation," but it would be wise to arrive at a consensus on it. Any proposals?--MarshalN20 | 22:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

It definitely needs to specify that it is the "British". How about "British re-capture"? That seems like something that can easily be twisted towards whatever POV is desired. CMD (talk) 11:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Given the 14th is commemorated as Liberation Day in the Falkland Islands, it is perfectly reasonable to use that description. Should we change Malvinas Day because it is offensive to the Falklanders and from their POV an anathema? You are both making the classic flaw that NPOV requires us to state individual POV. It doesn't, NPOV requires that we present information from a neutral perspective based on reliable 3rd party sources. Just because it may be unpalatable to certain nationalist perspectives does not mean we tend to their sensibilities. I would say leave as is, to reflect the national holiday in the Falklands it refers to. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello Wee, glad to see you back (??). Using the term "Liberation" (a term used both by Argentines and British) is definitely not the same as using the term "Liberation Day" (referring to a specific holiday). Moreover, the "Liberation Day" holiday is unique to the Falklands (none else in South America do that, except for the SG&SS islands). Perhaps that is what could be included to remove the ambiguity of "liberation"?

Nonetheless, perhaps including either "British", "UK", or "Falklands" prior to "Liberation Day" (ie, "UK Liberation Day"), just as CMD suggested, would make this even more specific. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 12:48, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

No I'm not back, though may peek in now again. I'm sorry but I would disagree, there is no sense in the UK prefix as it implies a UK holidy, which it isn't. Its specific to the Falkland Islands, where it is simply known as Liberation Day. As to your comment that it isn't used in South America, so what, Malvinas Day isn't used in the islands. Neutral 3rd party sources should be the guide per WP:NPOV. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing wrong was meant by the statement that "Liberation Day" is unique to the Falkland Islands; rather, it was meant to show that using such a term was more precise than the ambiguous "liberation" used by Argentines as well as Falklanders. I agree that using 3rd party sources follows the guideline, hence my earlier citation to the Encyclopedia of World Geography. Would you agree to using "Liberation Day" in the infobox instead of the current "Liberation" term currently in use? Regards.--MarshalN20 | 14:17, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Liberation Day is an annual holiday to commemorate the Liberation in 1982. I think it appropruiate to just use the word "Liberation", but to have a note stating that it is commemorated annually as a public holiday. This has the added advantage of highlighting one of the Falkland public holidays that is not celebrated elsewhere. Martinvl (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

What is used in the infobox shouldn't be based on what a holiday is named. An outsider may not immediately know what "Liberation" means, as it is without context and just plainly stated in the infobox. "Britain liberated the Falklands" seems like usable prose, as does "Falkland Islanders celebrate Liberation Day", but the word by itself has no context. CMD (talk) 15:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite amenable to suggestions of expanding the text to explain "Liberation" better, it would improve the article. Any of the suggestions but perhaps "Liberation Day" has the benefit of brevity. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that Wee's change is an improvement. Would a footnote explaining it a bit more make it even better? For example, mixing the input from CMD and Martin, we could have the following: "Official name of the annual holiday commemorating Britain's liberation of the Falklands."--MarshalN20 | 16:57, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

If something needs a footnote to be in the infobox, that's an argument against it being in the infobox. Explanations should be left to the article text. I'd still prefer "British re-capture" as perfectly self-explanatory and with an indication of who did the Liberating, but looking at the change Liberation Day does work better than Liberation did. CMD (talk) 18:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Liberation day seems odd, I would prefer "British re-estabish rule".Slatersteven (talk) 10:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Why? We're guided by what the sources say, we don't make stuff up. Wee Curry Monster talk 12:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

But whej w have differing views wwe arrive at a compromise. It's clar that both sies claim they liberated the Islands, thus we should try and be neutral.Slatersteven (talk) 13:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I find it odd because it reads as an undescriptive proper name. If the word liberation must be kept, why not use "British Liberation" or something similar? A google search on "Liberation Day" seems to find a mixed use to describe it as the exact day and as the holiday. CMD (talk) 13:12, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Why is it odd? Neutrality does not require reflecting differing POV, it requires we reflect the views expressed in neutral 3rd party sources. So we don't make it up if certain nationalist viewpoints find things objectionable, that isn't neutrality. It would be no more neutral to rename Malvinas Day as some people in the Falkland Islands find that grossly offensive. Thats the point. If you really feel strongly about it, just ignore all guidelines, ignore 3rd party sources and make it up if you like but that isn't what writing quality articles are about. Sadly it seems no one cares about that anymore, I give up. 13:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is really not on the realm of neutrality, but rather on the sujbect of ambiguity. None of us here are defending the Argentine POV; instead, we are accepting that such a POV exists and that it also uses the term "Liberation" towards the Falkland Islands. The objective is thus to prevent confusion (ambiguity), and specify the "Liberation Day" being referred to in the infobox.

This is also what makes the "Malvinas Day" example unnecessary. It does not relate to the discussion at present.

So, I don't think that your statements are wrong per se; they simply are not in the same frequency as everyone else's in the current discussion. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Marshal. I don't have any objections to the NPOV of Liberation, or Liberation Day. I find "Liberation"/"Liberation Day" to be odd because they are presented almost by themselves and without any context. I'm not even bothered about whether the Argentinians call their invasion Liberation. My main point is that Liberation could be a few things, an external force, be it British, Argentinian, perhaps even UN, or perhaps an internal movement. Nor does Liberation note continued British sovereignty. CMD (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have changed the infoxox text about the Argentine invasion to match the text of the Briths invasion so that it now refelcts both contires celibrations of 'liberating' the island, wy is this edit silly and to refer to the Bristish invasio as liberatio day not? Sory but this really is POV pushingSlatersteven (talk) 14:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

They're not presented out of context there is a wikilink there. I don't think the addition of Malvinas Day was particularly helpful at this juncture and was clearly WP:POINT. My decision to largely quit wikipedia is looking increasingly like a great move on my part. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:28, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Persons, not property, have liberty. Islands are occupied. People are liberated. The only question would be how did the local population react to the presence of the troops? Hcobb (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Do we need this level of information in the info-box? TFD (talk) 21:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

If the term "liberation" is so problematic, then we should seek alternatives. It may be correct under a given reasoning, but it is not mandatory, and if we can find a term that both sides would use, then that would be better. What about Status quo ante bellum Cambalachero (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I like the proposal. It explains the event in brevity.--MarshalN20 | 23:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of that section of the infobox is to list significant events, Liberation Day is commemorated as an annual holiday. As I have pointed out, many people in the Falkland Islands find the term Malvinas Day highly offensive, particularly as it was moved to April 2 to reflect the invasion of their homeland by Argentina. We don't change the name of that article as a result. If you apply the same logic we should be changing the article Malvinas Day by inventing a new description that the islanders don't find offensive and is more "neutral". Sorry but this is really an invented problem, the term isn't problematic and the mere fact it is disliked by certain national groups is not an excuse. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

And many argentines find the name independacne day offensive as well. Moreover we are not talking abut changng the name of the articel, so stop making straw man arguments.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

You can't airily dismiss a logical argument as a staw man, when it quite clearly isn't. In fact, the only straw man argument here is we should change the name of a signficant event in Falklands history, because one side finds it "offensive" to their POV and as a result it isn't "neutral". And you've simply provided another example, should we rename Independence Day as a result of Argentines finding it offensive? The entire argument for change is specious, its based on the fact that one side doesn't like something so we must find a "neutral" alternative. Sorry no, NPOV requires that we present information from a neutral perspective based on reliable 3rd party sources. The argument for change is based on the flawed premise that to be neutral we have to find terms that aren't offensive to certain POV. Sorry you'll never find one that someone of whatever nationalist persuasion doesn't find offensive and this is why we have guidelines to use the mainstream view in neutral 3rd party sources. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to place ourselves on the correct positions here, because I can understand the foundation for Wee's argument. For my part, I think that "Liberation Day" is already an improvement from the previous (ambiguous) "Liberation" term. So, if no further changes are made, I would honestly be satisfied by the current status of the infobox. However, the term "status quo ante bellum" (suggested by Cambalachero) seems to completely do away with any remaining ambiguity left by the term "Liberation Day". Eliminating ambiguity is the purpose of the argument, not who gets offended by the terms "Liberation" or "Liberation Day".

What is wrong about using "status quo ante bellum"?--MarshalN20 | 14:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The relevant section of the Infobox is supposed to list significant events in the history of the islands. Its not supposed to be exhaustive but to list significant events that have shaped the islands into what they are today. The suggestion of status quo ante bellum is not eliminating ambiguity but actually introduces ambiguity by assigning a legal term as a name for a significant event that is utterly without relevant context. Liberation was ambiguous I agree, Liberation Day refers to an historic event (commemorated by a national holiday), status quo ante bellum refers to no event whatsoever. So to summarise the proposal seeks to assign an invented name to an event creating ambiguity and confusion.

The original comment refers to differing POV on the subject from fairly narrow national perspectives. As a rule of thumb, the moment national perspectives of whatever flavour are mentioned, we should be very cautious to refer to WP:NPOV. All too often people fall into the trap of believing that NPOV is achieved by representing particular viewpoints from a national perspective. If you have POV (A) and POV (B) you don't achieve neutrality by stating both POV (A) & (B) but by describing them from a neutral perspective as written in, ideally neutral, 3rd party sources. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

WCM comments about what the NPOV "says" are actually in contradiction with the actual content of that policy, specifically the "Explanation of the neutral point of view" section. It says that "the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all notable and verifiable points of view". Exactly the opposite of what he just proposed, which is to ignore both points of view and write instead the content of a source considered "neutral". And specifically for this case, it says "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements". If the use of "liberation" is contested, then it is not neutral to use it. Infobox entries, which are provided as is and without building context, is clearly something we can consider "direct statements".

Second, try to define neutrality without using "neutrality" or related words in the definition. "NPOV requires that we present information from a neutral perspective" is just a tautology.

As for the use of status quo ante bellum, of course that the article is about the generic concept. That's what piped links are for: link the related article, and use "status quo ante bellum" as the visible text. Cambalachero (talk) 19:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Liberation Day is a day in the Falklands Calendar - if I were to visit the islands on Liberation Day, I would expect to find all businesses closed - however I would expect it to be "Business as normal" on Malvinas Day. For that reason, Malvinas Day has no place in an article dedicated to the Falkland Islands, though of course it is perfectly reasonable to mention both holidays in the article Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute. Martinvl (talk) 19:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not confuse the historical event with the holiday Cambalachero (talk) 20:49, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Let me demolish that argument with a simple reduction ad absurdum. As someone already pointed out, Independence Day is considered offensive name in Argentina. NPOV does not require us to use an alternative term to represent that viewpoint. Your proposal is essentially to remove a significant event in Falklands History and link it to an obscure legal term in the name of "neutrality". May I politely suggest your understanding of the NPOV policy is utterly wrong. Feel free to take this to WP:NPOVN, where I am confident my comments will be vindicated. BTW I only suggest this as it seems you don't understand the policy. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The Argentine society has no special feeling, negative or positive, towards the independence of the United States. Stay on topic please. Cambalachero (talk) 23:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Do I take it, given your lack of response, that you decline my suggestion of seeking a 3rd party opinion via WP:NPOVN? Wee Curry Monster talk 07:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

There are 6 users already in this thread, I don't really see the need. I have pointed that your explanations of the neutral point of view either go against what the policy actually says or consist of mere tautologies, and you replied by immediately derailing the discussion, talking about noticeboards and holidays of the united states. Cambalachero (talk) 12:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality doesn't come into it. WCM and Martinvl are right. — Jon C. 13:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Cambalachero: Yes, but the six of us are the traditional troupe. Perhaps getting RfC opinions from people outside of this area could help bring a wider perspective on the subject. If we continue the argument as it is, ultimately that will only keep burning our circuits and mess with out cheerful days. Listening to the opinions of others could help reach a solution to this important discussion. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Quick question: if Liberation day is acceptable to mark that date then why isn't Malvinas day acceptable to mark April the 2nd? Regards Gaba p (talk) 13:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, this provides an answer for the #Progress? thread. If there is no intention to find a compromise, if every sentence and comma will be turned into a false dilemma between extreme options, then it's no surprise that this article will not go anywhere and will stay under a perpetual state of discussion. Just step back and see, what is all this discussion about? Just an entry in the infobox, and there is no way to find an option that leaves everybody satisfied? Cambalachero (talk) 13:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I suggested following the normal route of WP:DR, there has been no suggestion of extreme options (other than it has to be said to introduce some weird wikilink to an obscure legal term). And yes the habit of forcing every discussion to go to the nth degree of WP:DR is deeply tedious. Please note who is forcing it, given there is a solution everyone else is pretty much happy with. Your suggestion is not a compromise.

Further contrary to your repeated assertion and incorrect interpretation of policy I have not suggested anything that goes against policy. I'm happy to have that go to external opinion, you have declined that as an option and that speaks volumes. Please drop the WP:STICK. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As of now if my counting is correct there are 5 (five) editors who would rather see a different wording in the article, considering that Liberation day is troublesome, and 3 (three) editors opposing this. Who's forcing what now?

If there are no valid reasons as to why Malvinas day shouldn't be added and Liberation day should, I'll go ahead and make the edit. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Because the article is about the Falkland Islands, not the dispute. As it stands, whether you like it or not, the Falklands are a British overseas territory and the islanders celebrate Liberation Day. Why would we put a holiday celebrated by a foreign nation the islanders have no relation to, other than that they're invaded them once? What is so hard to grasp here? — Jon C. 16:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, if the reason for the validity of Liberation day is that it is a local holiday then shouldn't the link point to that article (Liberation day)? As it stands right now, given that nobody outside the islands knows that Liberation day is the name of the holiday, it is very ambiguous and furthermore it sends a political message by being linked to the Argentina surrender article. This is not NPOV and it is not acceptable. The Liberation day holiday should be mentioned inside the article where there's more than enough space to properly explain it. The infobox should display non-ambiguous, non-problematic information. That's why Cambalachero's or Slatersteven's suggestions are correct. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 16:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that my proposal was not fully understood. Rather than spend lots of time explaining it again, I have implemented it for consideration. Martinvl (talk) 16:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, I support Martin's bold edit, the suggestion of linking to a list rather than the event was not sensible. The infobox does not display any information that is problematic and never did. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the footnote. "Liberation Day" in the infobox signifies the event, and not the holiday. The infobox shouldn't be a list of holidays, and the footnote does not add clarity to the reader as to why that day is important enough for the infobox. For future reference, footnotes can be placed directly in the infobox rather than at the bottom of the article, using a footnote= field. CMD (talk) 18:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Culture

Why is there no culture section?--MarshalN20 | 14:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I second that, I find it really strange how there's more info on the religion of the Islands than there is on culture in general. I think you guys need a break from the discussion/argument above, so get to it ;) --Τασουλα (talk) 15:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I had already proposed it at the "Progress?" section, and it was rejected. Cambalachero (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Opposed on notability grounds it seems. There has to be some notable elements of culture worth writing about here... (Even though the only thing I can think of is that the culture is primarily British on the whole, probably with stronger influences from Scotland & Wales...just a guess) --Τασουλα (talk) 21:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Infobox dates

Under the title ‘Establishment’ the present infobox version features events and dates that are not pertaining. In my opinion, that section of the infobox ought to be as shown on the right. Best, Apcbg (talk) 07:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I like this proposal quite a lot. However, should the Argentine invasion & occupation also make it in this list? Regards.--MarshalN20 | 17:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

A good proposal, I think a couple more dates should be added though. Will comment in more detail later. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It looks good but the 1982 event can't be disregarded, it needs to be mentioned. Regards Gaba p (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I was going to suggest a few more dates. Add the different constitution dates, as well as the implementation of the Island Council. One of the things your proposal doesn't chart is the development of devolved/self-government in the islands at present. I will suggest a few extra dates. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

To add, the communications agreement of 1971 should probably be mentioned as well. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

We should make sure that we don't overload the infobox. How important is the Communications Agreement? Also, if we use this format, with just the years (which seems reasonable considering the main text should expand on it), we can just have 1982 - Falklands War. CMD (talk) 18:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I liked the spacing on the other one, but including the Falklands War in 1982 seems the most logical option. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 21:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I support MarshalN20's version of the infobox, it's clear and mentions the most relevant points. It would also remove the "Liberation day" issue (back on the table now that CMD removed the note) Regards Gaba p (talk) 21:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The comments above show some confusion as to what is "relevant point" in that section of the infobox which is not a timeline of historical events. Putting the Falklands War there would be mixing apples and oranges as the War marked no change in the constitutional status of the Islands — neither according to Britain nor according to Argentina. Apcbg (talk) 07:34, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Not entirely true. During the Falklands War, the islands were under Argentine military rule. Martinvl (talk) 07:43, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The short-lived wartime Argentine provisional Military Government (Gobernación Militar) of the Islands (controlled the entire territory of the Falklands for 54 days, 3 April to 21 May), and the Falklands War itself are two different categories. Apcbg (talk) 08:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Hence my earlier suggestion to use the "Occupation of the Falkland Islands." The term "occupation" is not a candy term for "invasion." Both are separate things, but the "occupation" part is the only one that truly concerns the government. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:11, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

British Dependent Territory status preceded BOT status, there has been more than one constitution, again I'd repeat my suggestion of the Communications Agreement, it may also be worth mentioning UN resolutions - provided the usual POV crap can be avoided. However, after reviewing other infoboxes I may well suggest that I STFU and restrict it to simply adding the BDT status as the transition from colony to self-governing. Thoughts? Wee Curry Monster talk 14:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

UN resolutions are definitely a bit much, in terms of due vs undue. BDT status seems very relevant however. We should probably mention these events in the article if they're valuable enough to be suggested for the infobox, even if just in a single phrase. I have no preference as to whether it is "Falklands War" or "Occupation" in the infobox. I don't think there'll be much difference for the reader, and it's not hard to get from one to the other. CMD (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced that a very brief wartime administrative arrangement is worth including, and have been unable to find any such precedent in other infoboxes. Therefore, I am upholding my original proposal, which incidentally (as Wee and CMD could see above) does include a ‘British Dependent Territory’ entry. Apcbg (talk) 17:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I did have the "British Dependent Territory" in the chart (however, it was under a repeated number). The Argentine occupation is important, as the history of this article and talk page demonstrates to us all. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure both Wee and I did see it included, however it wasn't included in one of the proposals, and it's always useful to clarify. I can't think of a similar example that isn't one about a sovereign state, which has a very different level of administrative situations, if you will. Keeping that in mind, I don't think you'd include German occupation in the France infobox, despite its longlasting effects such as permanently shifting the French timezone to sync with Germany. Thus, I support Apcbg's proposal, at the top of this section. The Falklands War is in the second paragraph of the lead anyway. CMD (talk) 11:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I did, my remarks were more orientated toward suggesting it was put back as it was removed in a later proposal. I do wish to point out that at the moment the way the table is constructed the Argentine occupation appears to be run from 1982 to 2002. Whilst I support this proposal this area needs clarification. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with CMD, the 1982 war must be mentioned. The islands are a disputed territory and the Argentine occupation is a key piece of information associated with it.

I do not think the infobox implies the occupation lasted from 1982 to 2002, as I see it it's rather clear that dates are presented and not periods. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 11:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I edited the infobox to match Wee's recommendation, which I think is correct.

CMD, your point is also good, but comparing France the Falklands is really a matter of apples and oranges. The France article's infobox is strange to begin with, particularly since it does such things as mentioning West Francia over the Kingdom of France. Did the Germanic Franks really consider themselves "French" in the modern sense? Other articles, such as GA England, do not even bother with having this part of the infobox. So, ultimately, it's a matter of what editors decided to include in it.

Lastly, I fear that the term "recapture" may be seen as negative. If it is, then please know that I took it from the Falklands War article, mainly to avoid repeating the term "re-establishment," but also to prevent the return of that WP:DEADHORSE discussion we had some time ago. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Equally "occupation" could be misconstrued, I never underestimate the ability of nationalist POV pushers to construct mountains out of molehills. I made a minor suggested change so that it reflected the previous consensus. Hope you don't mind. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind "Liberation Day", but I do not agree with returning the "Argentine invasion" to the infobox. Invasion is a military maneuver, while "occupation" (although also military) has more to do with the government. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 14:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

As I said, France and the Falklands aren't completely comparable. France has the former entities in the infobox no doubt because there's a direct political lineage from those early states to the modern republic, states being a political idea. We shouldn't have the infobox have both full dates and just years. If 1982 is included, it should be as one entry. It's simpler and probably more helpful for the reader. The infobox is meant to be the most summative of summaries. CMD (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

CMD I both disagree and agree. Yes we shouldn't mix dates but equally sometimes years don't fit. Marshall I don't entirely disagree either but without the invasion there is no occupation and including just the occupation disconnects events in a way that strikes me as illogical. Sometimes summaries aren't easy to achieve. Looking at France the German occupation during WW2 isn't mentioned at all. I wonder if recentism is at work here and in reality we shouldn't include the Falklands War at all as Apcbg originally suggested? I must admit to shifting my opinion in that direction. If we're charting the development of Falklands' governance, whilst the war is a significant historical event, the changes it produced are what we should document not the war itself. What do you think guys? Wee Curry Monster talk 17:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

“If we're charting the development of Falklands' governance, whilst the war is a significant historical event, the changes it produced are what we should document not the war itself.” Exactly. Apcbg (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I changed 'Liberation day' for 'British recapture' given that the first term brings back the issue discussed above and forcibly re-introduces the note CMD removed. 'British recapture' is a clear phrasing which involves no issues at all. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 18:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Falkland Islands
Establishment
• British rule re-established	5 January 1833
• Crown Colony	1841
• British Dependent Territory	1981
• Argentine military government	2 April 1982
• British Dependent Territory (reinstatement)	14 June 1982
• British Overseas Territory	2002
• Current Constitution	1 January 2009

I have updated the proposed infobox to show the status of the government of the day - for the purpose of brevity, all references to military action have been removed. I believe that this text is as close to NPOV as is possible. Martinvl (talk) 20:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I like Martin's proposal. No "occupation" or "invasion". The "reinstatement" part is a wise use of words.--MarshalN20 | 21:55, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Except again, its an invented phrase, ie original research or WP:OR, which simply isn't sourced. We shouldn't be inventing names, we should be guided by neutral 3rd party sources.

I think I now understand Apcbg's original point and I must say for myself its a compelling argument. If we take for example, France, the infobox there does not mention the German military government of the occupation in WW2. So just reiterate the point we're summarising the development of the Falklands, whilst the war is a significant historical event, the changes it produced are what we should document not the war itself. Hence, in line with that:

Falkland Islands
Establishment
• British rule re-established	1833
• Crown Colony	1841
• British Dependent Territory	1981
• British Overseas Territory	2002
• Current Constitution	2009

Which truly is neutral, its sourced to reliable third party sources, has the virtue of brevity and avoids any phrase that nationalists on either side can find objectionable. I would however suggest we consider adding the nationality act of 1983(?) as perhaps one event we should include. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I support Martinvl's proposal. It mentions all the relevant events and gets rid of the issues associated with 'Liberation' etc. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 23:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

France is not even a GA-class article, and I really do not think it serves as a good model for the Falkland Islands.

To arrive at a conclusion to this, we should create a new section to first get everyone's opinion on either one or the other option. The two options being the (a) Apcbg proposal and the (b) Martinvl proposal.

If no consensus is reached, then we should go with the RfC, etc. Hopefully this can be resolved at an early stage. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 01:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Really? Well there is Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway or pretty much any example you'd like to take a gander at. None feel the need to mention a short lived Government of military occupation during WW2, as a relevant historic event the war should be mentioned in the article but it doesn't necessarily belong here. I simply ask you to consider that on the one hand you have an argument from precadent and on the other saying it must be mentioned, well because you say so. I started agreeing with the suggestion but after thinking about it, I'm now convinced Apcbg was correct. However, if you're going to insist then it should reflect sources and not be a made up term. Can we at least agree on that? Wee Curry Monster talk 07:43, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Also agree that the Argentine occupation shouldn't be mentioned. This article is about the British overseas territory of the Falklands, not the Argentinian province of las Malvinas, or whatever they planned to call their future administration. — Jon C. 07:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I checked the countries that were under Nazi occupation during World War II. France is incomplete - it misses the 2nd, 3rd and 4th republics, it misses the 1st and 2nd Empires, it misses the restored Bourbon monarchy and it misses the Orleanist monarchy. The infobox for Norway mentions end of the German occupation. All other lists are very sketchy.

I disagree with Jon C that this is about the "British overseas territory of the Falklands" - it is about the "Falkland Islands" (with no caveats).

If we are looking for brevity, the I suggest that "British Dependent Territory" has a link a note at the bottom of the infobox stating "Interrupted by Argentine Military government in 1982". (The infobox currently has four notes denoted by "a" ... "d" respectively).

Martinvl (talk) 09:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

@Martin, I think that is a good idea, it allows for brevity. My point is that other articles don't need to mention short lived military occupations and I think we're falling into the trap of assuming the only significant event was the war. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Since this appears top be close to consensus, I have boldly implemented the changes. Still need to change the labels so that they appear in order. Martinvl (talk) 11:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to note, again, that I disagree with the idea that precedent exists in compiling infobox "establishment" dates. Every country article includes whatever they want, even taking obvious irrational decisions as to place West Francia over the Kingdom of France. From my perspective, the current infobox in the Falkland Islands article is one of the best (if not the best, considering the other examples provided). If any such thing as "precedent" should be created, it should be to follow what this article has achieved in a timespan of a couple of weeks. Having said that, I agree with the bold change of Martin. Regards.--MarshalN20 | 13:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I beg to disagree with the idea that a very brief, wartime occupation might have a place in a country infobox. It doesn't. Having said that, if the present version with a footnote gets an overwhelming majority support, then I wouldn't object to it. Apcbg (talk) 14:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Except that the Falklands are not a country as we all know, they are one of various remaining British colonies and a highly disputed one at that. Disregarding the one entry that mentions this very important piece of information from the infobox does not seem like a good idea to me. The actual infobox is on the verge of not mentioning this at all (the note is hardly noticeable) and for this I maintain my support to the version proposed by Martinvl in this talk page over the current one. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 15:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

That very important piece of information is mentioned quite prominently in the article. If, as seems agreed by many here, a war and brief occupation is not the sort of thing that belongs in an establishment section, it doesn't need to be included. Half of Guyana is claimed by Venezuela, but we don't mention that in the Guyana infobox. Taiwan doesn't mention its being claimed at all (and not even the 1949 retreat). I'm not saying these are perfect infoboxes, or something we need to follow, but I think they're reasonably comparable situations, even if they're sovereign countries and this is merely a territory. I have no objections to Martinvl's bold change, and personally I don't think that removing the footnote is at all detrimental to the article. CMD (talk) 18:08, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm just stating my preference for the infobox presented by Martinvl a couple of days ago, but if the majority of editors here agree that the current state of the infobox is the best one, then that's the one that goes. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 23:53, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Resolved
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Erasing the Talk Page Hi, can someone please tell me why the talk page is being erased periodically? I realize that it's also being archived, but I'm not talking about the archive. Last May, I made suggestions regarding ways to improve the article. The suggestions were determined to be beyond the scope of this article. Fine. Those suggestions should be in Archive 17, under I don't feel that deleting suggestions is conducive to building encyclopediality. Who is deleting others' suggestions from the talk page? What are the standards to determine whether or not to delete someone's suggestions? --Lacarids (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC) I have done a little research. This diff file shows the removal of the thread in question. The link WP:SIGCLEAN suggests that off-topic discussions on Talk pages should be hidden, not deleted. Martinvl (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC) It was closed initially, at least part of it anyway. With the exception of the last part which was blatant trolling started by an anon, it should not of been deleted.--Τασουλα (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2012 (UTC) Thanks. It seems to have been an isolated thing. I really don't care that my suggestion was deleted. I thought it was indicative of a larger problem, but it appears that it was NOT part of a larger problem. Oh! And it says that "our friend Lacarids is a suspect in a sock puppetry case." Just for the record, you can refer to my User:Talk page if you're interested in the outcome. --Lacarids (talk) 00:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC) For the record, I believe deletion was appropriate, this wasn't a suggestion per se but rather a debate and talk pages are emphatically not forums. Anyway as this is resolved I'm hatting the topic. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 November 2012

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

under the media section. "The Penguin News, published by Mercopress" published by Mercopress - should be deleted There is no proof/verification that Penguin News is published by Mercopress.

81.149.125.206 (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I checked the references. One site does make claim that Penguin News is published by Mercopress, but that site also links back to Misplaced Pages, so shoudl be discarded. Neither the MercoPress site nor the Penguin News site make any suggestion to substantiate any link between the companies, excpet possibly that Penguin News (a newspaper) buys information from MercoPress (a press agency), in much the same way that The Times might buy news stories from Reuters. I have amended the article accordingly. Martinvl (talk) 22:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Good Article project

I have looked up the comments made regarding the Good Artcile project (

A good idea, I believe. Apcbg (talk) 06:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Indented line

Gaba p and the "Argentine POV"

I have noted that Gaba P is reprising a discussion that utterly hijacked Self-determination and ended up in ridiculous levels at WP:DRN and WP:ANI. Other editos may find this information useful.

Sources suggested by Wee Curry Monster

My suggestion per WP:NPOV is to focus on neutral academic sources.

Neutral

Lowell S. Gustafson (7 April 1988). The Sovereignty Dispute Over the Falkland (Malvinas) Islands. Oxford University Press. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-19-504184-2. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“

Sarandi sailed on 5 January, with all the soldiers and convicts of the penal colony and those remaining Argentine settlers who wished to leave. The other settlers of various nationalities, remained at Port Louis.

”

I place a great deal of emphasis on Gustafson as an American academic who has studied extensively in Argentina. The book received a lot of praise for its neutral approach to the subject matter.

“

Nevertheless, this incident is not the forcible ejection of Argentine settlers that has become myth in Argentina

”

Empahsis added

Julius Goebel (1927). The struggle for the Falkland Islands: a study in legal and diplomatic history. Yale university press. p. 456. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“

On April 24, 1833 he addressed Lord Palmerston, inquiring whether orders had been actually given by the British government to expel the Buenos Aires garrison...

”

Emphasis added

Mary Cawkell (1983). The Falkland story, 1592–1982. A. Nelson. p. 30. ISBN 978-0-904614-08-4. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“

Argentina likes to stress that Argentine settlers were ousted and replaced. This is incorrect. Those settlers who wished to leave were allowed to go. The rest continued at the now renamed Port Louis.

”

Primary Sources

“

you are not to disturb them in their agricultural or other inoffensive employments

”

Rear-Admiral Baker’s orders to Onslow. Captain Onslow was commander of the Brig-sloop HMS Clio that carried out the order to remove the Buenos Aires Garrison. His orders clearly precluded any action against the settlers.

“

I had great trouble to pursuade 12 of the Gauchos to remain on the Settlement, otherwise cattle could not have been caught, and the advantages of refreshments to the shipping must have ceased.

”

“

I regretted to observe a bad spirit existed amongst the Gauchos, they appeared dissatisfied with their wages… The whole of the inhabitants requested me to move the government in their favour for grants of land.

”

Onslow's report.

Onslow's report and orders are in the archive at Kew Gardens, ref PRO Adm 1/2276, and PRO FO 6 500. Onslow made two reports one for the admiralty and one for the Charge d'Affaires in Rio.

“

...those inhabitants who freely wished it should remain and both they and their property would be respected as before...

”

The above is an extract from the report made by Pinedo at his court martial. Both eye witness reports corroborate one another – ie there is no difference in the contemporary record. Source: Argentine National Archive, Buenos Aires, Ref: AGN Sala VII, Legajo 60, p. 22

Another primary source, Thomas Helsby on wikisource:

This gives a list of the residents at Port Louis in August 1833 (some 3 months after the supposed expulsion). The settlement was a diverse mix of numerous nationalities including British, Irish, French, German, Charrúa, the majority of the Gauchos came from what we now know as Uruguay. All were brought to the islands in the service of Luis Vernet. Antonio Roxas is still recorded in the Falklands census of 1851 as a resident and major land owner. Source would be Falkland Islands Government archive, Stanley, Falkland Islands.

Non-neutral sources (use with Caution!)

Laurio Hedelvio Destéfani (1982). The Malvinas, the South Georgias, and the South Sandwich Islands, the conflict with Britain. Edipress. ISBN 978-950-01-6904-2. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

I use Destéfani with caution due to the circumstances in which the book was published. In 1982 during the Falklands War over 100,000 copies were printed and distributed free to various academic institutions to make the Argentine case for sovereignty.

“

Before Pinedo sailed from the Malvinas he appointed Political and Military Commander of the Islands, a Frenchman name Juan Simon who had been Vernet's trusted foreman in charge of his gauchos

”

David Tatham (2008). The Dictionary of Falklands Biography (Including South Georgia): From Discovery Up to 1981. D. Tatham. ISBN 978-0-9558985-0-1. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

I use Tatham with caution as it contains a series of papers written by a number of authors. It is however referenced by many neutral academic sources.

Source for the British Government position

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Source for the Argentine Government position

Argentina’s Position on Different Aspects of the Question of the Malvinas Islands

“

This is because the specificity of the Question of the Malvinas Islands lies in the fact that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the people that had settled there and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina. Therefore, the possibility of applying the principle of self-determination is ruled out, as its exercise by the inhabitants of the islands would cause the “disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity” of Argentina.

”

Note specifically the claim made is that the settlers were ejected. Note also Gustafson above specifically rebuts this claim as many academic sources do.

If this is to be a repeat of the previous discussion it was the hijacking of an article improvement task to push the Argentine POV into articles contrary to NPOV. I really can't be arsed with this nationalist crap again but if you need help with sources drop me an email. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

What an amazing wall of text by a retired editor. Specially from one who says of WP "Content editors are scum, wikipedia is not about creating an encyclopedia at all". Amazing.

Wee, last time you barely managed to escape a 4 months ban on the Falklands topic (very similar to the 1 year ban you were awarded for similar pro-British POV pushing at Gibraltar articles) because of this. At the time 3 editors agreed that you were utterly wrong in your attempts to obscure several legitimate sources and 4 editors advised you to stop incurring in WP:OR and WP:SYN (if somebody here is new to what I'm talking about, just drop me a line and I'll be happy to provide you with the relevant WP links to check this for yourselves)

Your last edit is borderline vandalism. This is not the place for such argumentative editing as the one you inserted, there's already a whole article about the dispute. Please do not start again. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Sourced content to neutral 3rd party academic sources is not vandalism but editing to remove such sources is. Again I can link to threads at NPOV which confirm it is not acceptable to repeat claims made by one party in a dispute uncritically, when they are contradicted by such sources. The source you claimed as legitimate, Lopez, was utterly discredited at NPOVN. And those here that know me, also know that no one (aside from various nationalist POV pushers) has ever accused me of partisan editing, I conclude by noting that aside from the usual blatant personal attack you have not one single source that rebuts either the contemporary records in primary sources, nor the conclusions made in neutral 3rd party academic sources, the best you can do is to confuse matters by referring to text that treats the subject matter in an ambiguous manner in an attempt to falsely claim there is some difference of opinion in academic sources, where in fact none exists. Now having let the sources do my talking for me, I do not intend to indulge your passion for tendentious argument but are of course welcome to have the last word as usual. Wee Curry Monster talk 01:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Not only are there 3 sources backing the claim you seem hell bent in hiding (can be seen here: 84, 85 & 86) but the actual Argentinian source says nearly verbatim what Chipmunkdavis wrote:

“

Once order had been restored in Puerto Soledad, a British Royal Navy corvette, with the support of another warship in the vicinity, threatened to use greater force and demanded the surrender and handover of the settlement. After the expulsion of the Argentine authorities, the commander of the British ship left one of the settlers of Puerto Soledad in charge of the flag and sailed back to his base

”

(emphasis added)

No matter what you think, the Argentinian claim is what's written. You don't get to speak for WP saying "neutral sources say" for the simple fact that you don't get to decide which sources are neutral and which aren't. The only reason you keep bringing the Lopez source (which is not used neither here nor at the Self-determination article) is that you know you are wrong. At the RS/N we were advised to use the Risman book and you were told to stop the WP:OR and WP:SYN Let me quote the two editors over there you decided to ignore after they replied to your own request:

• "The other editors would be justified about their OR and SYNTH objections; we should not critically evaluate sources ourselves via cross-checking against their primary sources". Churn and change
• "Yes, the fact-checking you are doing is OR". Churn and change
• "WCM: You aren't a political historian on wikipedia—you're an encyclopaedia editor, stop engaging in original historical research". Fifelfoo

As of now you've reverted 2 times an edit agreed upon by two editors (Chipmunkdavis and myself) Be advised that you are walking the exact same path that almost got you banned not two months ago. Regards Gaba p (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree. When there is a dispute, the thing is to identify and point the perspectives, not select a "neutral" (with quotation marks) source and pretend that the "truth" is in such source. The only thing we can require from sources is that they are reliable, not that they are "neutral", because we can't decide who is and isn't neutral without being influenced by our own opinions on the topic itself. To try to use wikipedia to clarify the truth about a disputed topic is doomed to failure.

By the way, WCM, why don't you remove that "retired" banner from your user page? You are clearly not retired Cambalachero (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• Okay now, there's no need to get personal and let's all put down the hatchet (if you find yourself still holding onto one) and what say we take this issue to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard for comments/reviews by neutral third party. In the meantime, let the current version stay on until a clear result comes out of the noticeboard. Shall we? --Dave 03:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Units of Measure

I am surprised at User:Wee Curry Monster changing all the units of measure of geographical-related sections. Under WP:MOSNUM, science-related topics should use SI-only and since Geography is a science (see definition in Misplaced Pages article), we should, in theory, be using SI only. I am not goung to push that, all that I ask is that we use the units of measure as per the sources. Martinvl (talk) 07:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

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