Misplaced Pages

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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 27 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 24 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 93 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 73 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 63 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 55 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 47 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 32 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 20 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 106 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 85 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor S Marshall. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  20:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 72 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 63 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 43 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Range blocks

Could an admin familiar with range blocks take a look at Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Broadway Hoaxer and see if anything can be done with blocking this person? I'm concerned that what we're catching of his vandalism might be the tip of the iceberg, and articles are being distorted with his misinformation without being discovered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:39, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

From which IPs has this vandal most recently been active? AGK 20:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

• 71.183.177.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 71.183.182.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.19.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.16.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.224.17.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

are some that I am aware of. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:13, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Also

• 71.183.183.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and
• 71.183.191.7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Knowing nothing whatsoever about filter construction: is it possible to block certain key words only if they came from 71. or 96. addresses? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about the edit filter question, so I've asked here. Shadowjams (talk) 04:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Apparently the answer is yes, you can have edit filters limited to IP ranges. Shadowjams (talk) 05:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

The latest IP used by this vandal is:

• 71.183.177.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Only two edits so far, but it's clearly him. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

• Next in line 71.183.181.165 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
• The listed ones appear to be coverable by 71.183.176.0/20 and 96.224.16.0/22, but if there are others these can be narrowed down a bit.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• You'll find a full list here, if that's helpful. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, I created Special:AbuseFilter/506. We'll need to let it run log-only for a few days to be able to see what kind of edits it's catching and thus determine how we need to refine it. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 11:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that's excellent news. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to assist. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• 71.183.182.168 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

71.183.182.168 triggered AF/506--Hu12 (talk) 13:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

That's definitely a good catch. I've requested blocking at AIV. Beyond My Ken (talk)

His latest IP is 71.183.177.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Perhaps a look at those edits to see if the filter should be tweaked? Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Admin smoke signals needed

SchuminWeb (talk · contribs) deleted Template:Gentlemen Prefer Blondes with the explanation that it was T3: Unused, redundant template. It was neither unused nor redundant. The first instruction at WP:DRV says "discuss the matter with the closing administrator and try to resolve it with him or her first", which is difficult if he is ignoring me. I thought one of you admins might call his attention to a ridiculous deletion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:40, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

So take it to DRV since he made it quite obvious he doesn't want to discuss it (with you anyway). Tijfo098 (talk) 07:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I've undeleted it. A contested speedy (not for urgent things like attacks or copyvios) is better served with undeletion and TfD if necessary. The template was not unused, but has a lot of redundancy with another one. Some solution for this can be discussed, but refusing even to give an explanation for a deletion is not the best way to handle this. If this had been posted at Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion, it would normally have been restored, so I see no reason not to do the same here. Fram (talk) 08:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I've notified Schumin. Would be interesting to hear why he's ignoring seemingly valid concerns from a number of editors. GiantSnowman 08:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Given the massive dispute at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2012 November 25, this will probably land at ArbCom as NFCC round n+1. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic response to my AN notification on his talk page... GiantSnowman 12:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear about this; the template deletion/undeletion has nothing to do with NFCC. There may or may not be a more general problem with this admins recent deletions, but that's the only link between the NFCC ones and this one. Fram (talk) 12:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems we have an issue of WP:ADMINACCT, "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." This administrator has ignored calls to explain themselves on two different deletions with different editors. Do we need to proceed to an WP:RFC/U?--v/r - TP 14:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Fram, thanks. I had been hoping for an undelete all along. I just thought that with two requests for reconsideration, he might do it himelf. My part in the issue is not such that I would want to lead an RFC. Since 5 of the 8 (7 of 10 if you count the title) links are redundant with {{Anita Loos}}, I understand that upon a quick review, an admin tasked with deleting a ton of stuff might mistakenly speedy this template. I will WP:AGF in regard to his intention.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

While a deletion may be a mistake (we've all made them!), ignoring the concerns is not. TParis, I agree that RFCU is a good route to go down. GiantSnowman 15:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Editor Retention#Admins closing as Delete even when the deletion discussion has a clear Keep consensus?. GiantSnowman 15:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I have re-added the notification to here on Schumin's talk page. How he responds will influence whether to endorse his opinion or that of those posting above. --Ritchie333 19:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
• I'd previously seen him do exactly the same thing with another improperly deleted page - delete, move on, repeatedly ignore queries. I'm happy to co-sign an RfC into this. Ironholds (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• Let's see if he provides any answers in the morning (22:30 UK time!). GiantSnowman 22:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• If this admin is deleting image files against clear community consensus to retain them in the cases being made reference to here it should be understood that this admin has a long history of engaging in this practice often resulting in these deletions being reversed after a review is requested. This admin also has a history of arbitrarily removing long standing "non-free" images from articles even though they have been correctly justified and provided with complete conforming rationales for their use. After unilaterally removing the image files, the admin also usually then immediately deletes the images themselves without going through the normal community review process on the specious grounds that they are "orphaned" non-free files. These practices are contrary to both the spirit and letter of WP policy. Centpacrr (talk) 23:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• His methods and, um, highly personal theories have been a problem for years, as I commented in the DRV. At the very least he should be forbidden from deleting images himself and from using methods for getting them deleted that bypass explicit review. Mangoe (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I also had a problem with one of his recent image closes, not only on the merits of the close itself but with his failure to give me a meaningful response. The discussion on his talk page is now archived here; the FFD in question is here. postdlf (talk) 04:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I was rather surprised at this particular close. The nominator brought forward a new reason against the deletion rationale. I was the only person saying "delete" but stated my !vote was non-policy-based. More importantly, the curtailed discussion was unsatisfactory. I felt on a previous occasion I had been treated similarly. Thincat (talk) 11:16, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
• I appreciate that SchuminWeb may be feeling a little beat up on here, but in order to stave off an RfCU I really think he needs to stop by here and address these concerns. The response so far is not ideal; I hope he reconsiders. I'd love to have him stick around here helping with admin tasks, but the accountability thing is not optional. 28bytes (talk) 05:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Agreed - his comment that "Apparently this has brought every person with whom I've ever disagreed in nearly eight years here out of the woodwork" is ridiculous; I can't speak for anyone else but I don't ever think I've ever interacted with SW before. It seems like a way of deflecting valid criticism. GiantSnowman 10:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I have spelled it out as best I can. I really can't do any more than that - I fully predict that if this gets to RfCU, he'll feel trapped in a corner and - boom - we've lost another good editor :-( (though I'm willing to be proved wrong on that one) --Ritchie333 15:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• All he has to do is to explain himself here - he has failed to respond. If that continues, RFCU will be the only option. GiantSnowman 15:30, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate what you're saying, but think a few moves ahead and put yourself in his shoes for a minute. He's done lots of edits that he sincerely believes are within policy and within good faith, and is suffering from editor fatigue. Do you honestly think that if you file a RfCU against him, he won't say "stuff this for a game of soldiers, I'm off" and leave the project? The relevant deletion review is still active - let's wait and see what the result of that is before acting in haste. --Ritchie333 15:35, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• If there are genuine concerns regarding an editor behaviour that give rise to a valid WP:RFC/U filling, then it should be filed. Otherwise every problem editors who are having their conduct questioned can just threaten to leave the project to stop any complaints in its track. -- KTC (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
• Ritchie, I don't want to lose an editor or an admin either, but I'm not willing to accept an "if you criticize me I'll leave" ultimatum from an administrator either. We simply have to hold admins to a certain standard of accountability, even if they find that annoying sometimes. If this were the first time he'd alluded to taking a break in the face of concerns about his admin behavior, that would be one thing, but it's not. I don't think he's a bad guy or anything, he just needs to engage with legitimate concerns and hopefully indicate he understands what people are telling him. 28bytes (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I think there's a bit of confusion over what I meant. I'm not talking about threatening to leave, I'm talking about actually leaving. As in, he voluntarily hands in his bit, gets desysopped, and puts {{retired}} on his page. The past precedent for this (amongst others) is EncycloPetey (talk · contribs), who, on failure to justify WP:INVOLVED, elected to leave WP and lost his bit in the process. To be honest, I see SchuminWeb's point of view - WP:FFD has a slightly different emphasis to WP:AfD as non-free files are in direct conflict with Misplaced Pages's pillar of free content, so cases for keeping them have to be watertight. Mind you, here Schumin wrote "I made a decision to close a large number of deletion discussions as delete that I knew would be unpopular because they're about people's precious television shows" so he really should have expected blowback on that, and responded to it, otherwise it's a somewhat misguided move. He could have just !voted delete as an editor and got an uninvolved admin to close the discussion. --Ritchie333 17:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I hear you, and I don't want to see him leave either, but if our only choice is to sweep legitimate concerns under the rug out of fear he might quit, that doesn't really leave us in a tenable position. 28bytes (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• I would simply like the record to show that my only interaction with this admin regarding deletion has been civil and productive. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Speaking from my own experience as an editor and as an admin who has been involved in the project for close to a decade, it's an important responsibility to realize when it's time to take a break (whether from a particular area or from the project as a whole) because you're getting too personally worked up, and/or getting others too personally worked up. It's certainly nothing new for NFC issues to be contentious and emotional, so that kind of self-awareness and self-restraint is especially needed if you're going to work in that area. postdlf (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Reverted closure . Purpose of this board includes discussion of administration methods, -- that does not imply every discussion must result in an administrative action. NE Ent 22:24, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could explain what forcing this back open (without even bothering to inform me you had undone what I consider an administrative action) is intended to accomplish? No formal sanction is even proposed, the subject of the discussion is not participating, the disputed actions are being discussed elsewhere. As I indicated in my close RFC/U is an appropriate forum if prolonged discussion of these issues is needed. What is the purpose of re-opening this? Beeblebrox (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I didn't force anything, I edited. It's not an administrative action. You don't know whether the participant is reading the thread or not, and the more users to go on record as expressing their disapproval the more powerful the message will be; therefore the purpose is to allow discussion to continue to see if anyone has anything else to say -- if they don't, the bot will get to it soon enough. The more appropriate question is what basis was there for Beeblebrox deciding the conversation was over? NE Ent 00:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Adminstrative actions that have been performed on the basis of a consensus, after due process, should not be reversible without a process of their own (which is why you need a DRV to reverse an AfD closure). But administrative actions performed unilaterally, on the basis of the administrator's personal opinion carry no more weight or authority than actions by any other editor. Such actions can be reversed by any editor. So NE Ent's reversing of the close was reasonable in all the circumstances. If another administrator re-closes it, of course, then NE Ent ought to leave it alone, but I would hope that our admin corps will be capable of seeing the benefits of letting users have their say.—S Marshall T/C 12:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Another example of SchuminWeb ignoring queries about his admin actions occurred regarding Chagos Islands national football team, undeleted at WP:REFUND only to be speedy deleted WP:CSD#G4. I feel this is either a shocking misapplication of policy (using G4 to delete an page that had been deliberately undeleted) or gross negligence (failing to even check the logs), but the undeleting admin refused to wheelwar and referred the user to SchuminWeb's talk page. The appeal there went unanswered. Kilopi (talk) 02:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Wow. An administrator had acknowledged the previous AfDs and determined that the consensus to delete was obsolete. The speedy re-deletion is outrageous. This is either gross incompetence or patent abuse (and I've restored it. It was restored reasonably and according to process; the same clearly cannot be said about its deletion, particularly when any attempt at discussion is refused. Swarm 22:10, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

RFCU

• I think the re-opening of this thread is a good thing - not to discuss this any further here, but for editors to open the RFCU that is so clearly needed. Any volunteers? I would do so myself but will probably be busy over the weekend. GiantSnowman 15:22, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Also busy, but happy to draft/endorse. I'll be free from Sunday evening onwards. Ironholds (talk) 15:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Please also address the wheel warring perpetrated by admin. " http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ASchuminWeb&diff=525036801&oldid=524859432" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.66.18.197 (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of the other merits to that discussion, your link does not provide evidence of a WP:WHEEL violation. He took an administrative action, it was reversed. The Wheel violation would occur on the 3rd action, which did not occur. Monty₈₄₅ 20:39, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it did. He deleted several images, I restored them, and he promptly re-deleted them. Images are File:Bart's Comet.png, File:The office grief counseling.png, File:Carride.jpg, File:Andy checking phone on stage.jpg, File:Office sabre2.jpeg, File:Office scott's tots.jpg, File:Jimchuck teststore.jpg, and File:Office st patricks day.jpeg. Several people objected at my talk page that I'd undeleted them while they were at DRV, but I wouldn't have done that had I known; I learned that they were at DRV only from the objections at my talk page. See the "I think you crossed a line with your image undeletions" and "Thanks and FYI" sections at my talk page, as well as my response at the "FFD closures" section of User talk:Lexein. Nyttend (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

unnecessary protection

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012/Candidates is protected contrary to policy; see prior discussion Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012/Candidates#protection.3F and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_page_protection/Rolling_archive#24_November_2012. Could somebody unprotect, or, actually give a policy based rationale for its protection? NE Ent 00:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Isn't there a thread about this on another talk page already? (Which I think you linked to.) Why the need for another venue? - jc37 00:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Discussion died there. NE Ent 01:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

It didn't really die. It served its purpose and concluded. It would seem you just don't like the outcome. The page will likely be unprotected after the election. Until then, it can stay. Has been done this way a while. Rjd0060 (talk) 02:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

High-visibility page. Important to an ongoing, time-limited, wikipolitically-sensitive process. No good reason for non-admins (or, really, admins, except under very limited circumstances) to make any modifications. Not an article or talk page. The lack of previous vandalism doesn't negate the value of preventive protection; even one instance of serious vandalism could affect the (perceived) integrity of the election process. I own a fire extinguisher, even though I don't plan to need it.

Beats me if some or all or any of those are explicitly within the word of the policy, but they're all in the spirit. Do you have a good common sense reason to unprotect, or are you just stirring the pot? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I would say that is beyond the explicit scope of the protection policy. For reference, last year, afaik, the only page we protected was the official questions page, and that was because we wanted to make sure that the same version was transcluded for each candidate, also not strictly speaking within the scope of the policy. Monty₈₄₅ 16:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Just an observation here, but I'd suggest that drawing attention to the page here, and asking for protection to be removed, is a sure-fire way to ensure that the page will be vandalised if it is unprotected... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I think protection is appropriate here. There are 3 necessary questions which need to be asked in determining this for any page:

1. Would Misplaced Pages gain anything from non-admins editing the page? In this case, clearly not. No one should be eiting it.
2. Would limiting who can edit the page scare away potential users? No way; anyone who knows enough to find this page, unless sent there for disruptive purposes, is probably familiar enough with Misplaced Pages to understand that this page's integrety needs to be kept.
3. Would there be any harm to Misplaced Pages, its articles or its community if the page is edited disruptively? Here, the answer is yes; the integrety of te election depends on it.

Since questions 1 and 2 show no reason for not protecting the page, and question 3 gives a reason for protection, the page should definitely be protected. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The 1 necessary question which should be asked is -- is the protection consistent with policy? Obviously not. With regards to Od Mishehu's strawman questions:

1. Review of past year's pages show sporadic maintenance edits, e.g. category changes. No reason why that should require an editor with a sysop bit.
2. The issue is the continued spread of protection-itis -- we've see it with talk pages of blocked users, templates with lots of transclusions, templates with few transclusions -- where does it stop? Is the written policy a quaint anachronism, and the real policy -- if we can't up with a reason a peon editor should edit it, no harm done?
3. Integrity of the election? Absurd, voters cast their ballot by visiting Special:SecurePoll/vote/259. -- does editing the candidate page change the contents of the voting page?

When I inquired at the talk page, the justification given was a. there wouldn't be any need to protect it, and b. it was standard operating procedure. Review of past year's pages shows both reasons to be untrue. I was just wondering if anyone could come up with a reasonable explanation consistent with written policy and the anyone can edit meme of Misplaced Pages. I'm disappointed but unfortunately not surprised no one has thus far. NE Ent 00:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

So no specific reason why it should be unprotected then, beyond the usual 'slippery slope' fallacy... As for your suggestion that editing the page couldn't affect the integrity of the election, supposing someone vandalised it by adding negative material to a candidate's statement? In any case, 'anyone can edit' may be a meme, but it sure as hell isn't policy - we restrict editing all the time... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Supposing someone vandalism the candidate's question page? e.g. There aren't protected. Does that affect the integrity of the election? NE Ent 22:41, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

No NE Ent, that's not the "1 necessary question", and I'm disappointed to see you framing the situation that way. If you need a policy, please refer to WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY: "While Misplaced Pages's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies." Or, for that matter, WP:POLICY: "Use common sense when interpreting and applying policies and guidelines; there will be occasional exceptions to these rules. Conversely, those who violate the spirit of a rule may be reprimanded even if no rule has technically been broken." I'll ask again—do you have a good common sense reason to unprotect, or are you just stirring the pot? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Request to lift a topic ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is a request to lift the indefinite topic ban that is currently imposed on me (User:Alan Liefting (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) on non-mainspace category related edits. The original discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive240#Topic ban for Alan Liefting and it attracted eight editors in support of a topic ban. Of those editors three used the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum and one gave no supporting arguments. That leaves four remaining !votes:

• GiantSnowman based his/her !vote on the fact that I am removing categories from AfC pages that are present in content categories. She/he then proceeded to block me, calling it is disruptive editing. It is utterly ludicrous to describe the clean up of polluted categories as disruptive.

• Andy Dingley suggested a wider topic ban than the one suggested. I am certain that Andy's !vote is coloured by a disagreement that we have had in the past on categorisation related edits. Interestingly, from what I read here he is supportive of some of the edits that actually caused the escalation of this issue.

• Arthur Rubin based his !vote on previous discussions and the reasoning is unclear to me. He did not actually describe his concerns in the topic ban discussion (I hope the closing admin did due diligence and followed all the previous convoluted discussions!). Arthur had blocked me at one point for "Disruptive editing: Specifically, removing categories from AfC pages, rather than quoting them." To me, as well as others, it seems to be a very petty and heavy handed use of what is a very powerful admin tool.

• postdlf has supported the ban saying that I am ignoring a "clearly demonstrated consensus" and cited an RfC in which I failed to get a guideline established based on what is done by convention. In the absence of policy or guideline what is wrong with editing to what is done by convention? To his/her credit postdlf has made attempts to resolve the issue, including talk page discussions and partaking in a proposed Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Categories that I had instigated.

It seems most of the editors involved with having the topic ban being imposed on me fail to see some of the unwritten conventions with respect to categorisation. If editors drill down from Category:Fundamental categories and Category:Main topic classifications (of which none of their subcategories have any images) it is easy to see that images are not included in content categories. My contentious category editing, described as "disruptive" by some, is simply done to the prevailing convention, to ensure consistency, and to benefit the reader.

Note that prior to having the topic ban placed on me a huge amount of my editing was focussed on categorisation. That, coupled with my high edit count inevitably led to differences of opinion and these differences are but a small part of my editing history. Additionally, categories are not visited as often as articles, and image pages probably even less so. I have now wasted a huge amount of time and energy in defending myself on this issue with absolutely no benefit to the project. We are volunteers but that does not mean that our time and energy can be wasted. We should also put things into context - cost-benefit analysis and all that.

Fram, the nominator of the topic ban, apparently has a prediliction for hounding some of the high edit count editors. See this and this. Fram's actions, coupled with my talk page stalkers and the bad blood between myself and a few editors appears to have escalated the issue. Also, in the case of the edits mentioned in the nomination I don't understand why the WP:BRD process was not used. And given that Fram expressed some uncertainty on the reason for my edits in the nomination trotting off to WP:AN is very poor form.

Given the foregoing rationale I argue that the topic ban is based on poor decision making and it does nothing to assist with building Misplaced Pages. I would also like to point out that I am on occasion asked for guidance on category related edits by editors who find the categorisation of pages a bit confusing. This should surely indicate that I am seen as somewhat of an expert on categorisation. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Counter proposal

Given the frequency of his appeals to this ban I propose that Alan be prohibited from posting further appeals for a period of six months, and limited to one request for lifting it every three months thereafter. Failure to abide by these restrictions would result in escalating blocks, as with the original ban. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support As proposer. The initial ban was in fact based on consensus, and that consensus was upheld the last it was appealed by Alan. While he is free to disagree with the ban, he does need to just accept it and move on. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

So how many times have I appealed the topic ban?? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

You just had an appeal denied a few weeks ago and you have been blocked a few times for violating it. This kind of WP:IDHT behavior is extremely tiresome. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I had completely forgot about that appeal. I think this whole messy issue is making my brain go soft. Maybe I should seek another venue? Or would that smack too much of forum shopping? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes it would. This is an entirely appropriate venue, the problem is the brief time frame between appeals. Since you now claim not to remember doing this barely two weeks ago a formal restriction to help you remember seems even more apt. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Anybody who would make this and this change to images of Obama's relatives cannot be allowed further access to categories. Binksternet (talk) 22:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I will reiterate - there is a convention whereby images are not included in content categories. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The word you chose—"convention"—makes me think that you refer to a poorly defined practice with which others disagree. If the images were not allowed in content categories because of an explicit guideline I'm sure you would have said so. Binksternet (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, to say "not allowed" is not really the sort of language used with respect to editing wikis. As I have stated there is an unwritten convention to separate images and content (as well as templates etc). -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Then why were you reverted? Binksternet (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

My edits are reverted because of a difference of opinion and because some editors are not making themselves familiar with what is common practice. Surely you see it happening yourself? Everyone from newbies to the long in the tooth wiki-heads make edits that are reverted because they are not completely familiar with every single aspect of Misplaced Pages editing. Misplaced Pages has become a very complex beast making it virtually impossible for an editor to be fully conversant with the whole shebang. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a poor excuse for failing to gain consensus, failing to establish a firm guideline. Binksternet (talk) 01:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

As I explained, there is a disconnect between what is done by the majority of editors and a handful of involved editors. Please go out and research the issue. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support per Beeblebrox. The message does not seem to be getting through and the repeated requests to lift the topic ban are disruptive. - MrX 23:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

And I could argue that my request is not being given due consideration. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support per Beeblebrox, and largely per Null's comments from the last time Alan asked for the ban to be lifted, which I am surprised to learn about now. When would we ever lift a ban when the same conduct can be expected to continue, and the very clearly drawn ban hadn't been complied with? postdlf (talk) 00:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Can you please explain to everyone what was wrong with my conduct? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose I continue to hope that Alan Liefting will come to the understanding that the pattern of editing he still wants to undertake is disruptive and agrees to stop. I would trust him if he pledged to do so, and don't see a reason he should be made to wait 6 months if he does come to that understanding. That said, I also oppose lifting the topic ban until that time. Monty₈₄₅ 00:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Why do you say my pattern of editing is disruptive? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

First as a matter of background, there is no policy or guideline that declares one way or another whether images should be in content categories. You undertook a pattern of editing that involved removing images from content categories. Other editors who object to your pattern of editing have reverted you. You refused to stop your pattern of editing, and even now say you will continue it if your topic ban is lifted. Now I understand you believe there is an unwritten consensus in favor of your editing pattern, and I have no doubt about the sincerity of your belief. Nonetheless, in all the discussion on the matter, including a full RFC, that consensus has never been established to the satisfaction of uninvolved editors. In light of which, continuing the pattern of editing is disruptive. Monty₈₄₅ 02:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support Alan still appears to have no comprehension as to what the original problem was and sees this merely as a Gulliverian attempt by the little people to tie him down. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Can you please explain to me and to editors unfamiliar with the issue what the actual problem is? And I take issue with your suggestion that I am not wiki-egalitarian. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Alan, it's up to you how to handle this but for the record arguing with every single person whose post you disagree with is generally not going to help your cause. I would in fact suggest that it is indicative of the same sort of issue that led to the topic ban in the first place. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Point taken but I cannot let the poor quality of the arguments go unchallenged. As I pointed out in my request the decision making surrounding the issue is very poor. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, point not taken. Are you saying that the closing admin makes a decision on how many comments I make? I f that is the case I have no faith in the process. In the original discussion my complete silence in the discussion was construed by GiantSnowman to be some kind sign. Can't win can I! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget that this is a wiki - the history is there for all to see. Anyone can see the slow-moving train wreck of a process. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, this is a wiki, where the history is there for all to see. This includes this RFC you started trying to make policy out of your above-mentioned 'convention', which was soundly rejected. While you state this convention exists without evidence, that RFC is evidence to the contrary. Why do you continue to ignore its outcome? – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 02:45, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Please read my request. I have suggested a method by which this convention can be check. Please go off and check for yourself. And please assume good faith. I am not making it up. It is there for all to see. This is the nub of the argument. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 04:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Unfortunately necessary per WP:IDHT. Tijfo098 (talk) 05:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Unfortunate Support - of course, I would have made it 12 months, but meh. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 08:36, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support First, despite Alan Liefting accusing me in his opening statement of some things on the say-so of Kumioko, he hasn't bothered to inform me that he did discuss me. He also went to Jimbo Wales to get his opinion in User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 120#Do you consider image and template pages to be content?, again referring to some unwritten convention (the silent majority argument), but forgot to mention a few counterarguments which I helpfully provided there, like the RfC that backfired. The reason for the topic ban was that Alan Liefting removed images from categories indiscriminately for no good reason ("no good reason", as established by the RfC), continued after being warned and blocked, and indicated that he would continue to make such edits. It's similar to his edit today on Krásna Hôrka Castle: while the removal of the article from the two "fire" categories may be debatable, the removal of an ancestral home of a notable family from the category for that family doesn't improve Misplaced Pages one bit and doesn't help the readers at all, but makes it harder for them to find connected information. Such lapses in judging categorization, while asking (again!) for the lifting of a topic ban where he wants to use even less judgment and just proceed blindly, makes it obvious that this topic ban shouldn't be lifted anytime soon and that further requests to lift it are only a waste of time for the near future. Fram (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support if someone is subject to a topic ban and wants to appeal it, then they should, at minimum, give some kind of assurance that the behaviour that led to the topic ban being imposed will not be repeated. I don't see anything like that with the two appeals that have been made in a short space of time. Instead the appeals try to argue the original topic ban was invalid, which isn't going to work - it's obvious that before the topic ban was imposed Alan was repeatedly making edits in defiance of community consensus and unwilling to listen to those telling him not to do so. If Alan does want the topic ban to be lifted, then I would suggest acknowledging the existence of a community consensus on this topic and agreeing to abide by it, even if he doesn't agree with it. Hut 8.5 11:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support no indication that the disruption is going to stop, actually the opposite. Agathoclea (talk) 13:29, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I refer Alan to the heartfelt comments I left for him the last time he appealed this ban. --Dweller (talk) 14:29, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support while Alan's dedication to "the reader" is admirable, this is a collegiate project, and it appears that he does not understand that from repeated blocks following the violation of a topic ban which he had already failed to have overturned, he would be best advised to consider both "the reader" and "his fellow editors" in future. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Actually one year would be my preference. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 18:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Personal E-mails as sources

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's a bit of an ongoing dispute on the verifiability of using e-mails as sources. I've put my post on WP:IRS below. Any info would be great! Thanks!

I'm running into a dilemma on an edit and I need guidance. There's an update I'm working on and the data is a little nebulous; sort of a "everyone knows it but no one can confirm it" situation. So I e-mail one of the people involved, and they give me confirmation that the data is in fact true.

However, I'm getting alot of people saying "You could be lying about the e-mail". Okay, I'm reluctant to share personal messages but I paste the text into the talk page. Now people are saying "You could have made that text up". So here I have an e-mail from the person who the edit is actually about, confirming the edit as true, yet I have no certifiable way of proving it. What's the best way to translate this into a Wiki-quality source? Does WP:AGF come into play here? Thanks! --SuperAnth: so dubbed by others, perpetuated by action (talk) 13:19, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• It's already well-known and held that e-mails are not a WP:RS ... no need to reconfirm it (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• No, emails cannot be used as sources. If the information in question is not covered by a publicly-available reliable source, it cannot go in the article. Part of the problem, as the people on the talk page have apparently pointed out, is that there is no way to verify that what you say is true. And though I'm sure you're acting in good faith and are indeed telling the truth, there's no way we can just accept people's word for factual claims - we'd have to believe the liars as well as the honest folk. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Link to discussion. As far as your "best way" question — the best way is probably to ask Dubuk to mention this fact on her blog. Something like this is one of the rather few exceptions to the prohibition on using self-published sources, since an artist saying "I made fictional character ___ to look like ___" can be trusted to tell the truth. Nyttend (talk) 14:15, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
• Think about yourself in relation to the world. If someone whom you knew solely as "Uncle G" on a WWW site told you that xe had personal private correspondence proving some point or other, but that you'd have to take xem solely at xyr word on what the correspondence said, would you accept that as reliable, published, documentation? Misplaced Pages is about what can be proved accurate through reference to knowledge that identifiable people attempting to document things accurately and truthfully have properly researched, nailed down, and published. You're nothing more than an unknown person with a pseudonym on a WWW site. Readers don't trust you. You need to go back to the very basics of our verifiability and no original research policies. If you want a hitherto unpublished and unknown fact to be in the encyclopaedia, you need to make it known through the proper route of getting it documented, by identifiable people with known and good reputations for fact checking and accuracy, and published outwith the encyclopaedia beforehand. Or, as a pseudonymous and untrustable encyclopaedist, you need to show where that has already been done somewhere. Uncle G (talk) 14:30, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• In addition to the sound advice Uncle G has just given above, I'm sure you made your edits with the best of intentions, and you're trying to improve the encyclopaedia, but this argument stems from you adding a half-sentence ancillary fact. It probably isn't as important as you might think it is. We can still read about Cave Johnson and find out about him from what is already reliably sourced in the article. Might as well let it go, don't you think? --Ritchie333 15:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

You are quite right. I think my mistake was assuming my edit would be as easy at the one I made earlier about Bill Fletcher being Cave Johnson. That one seemed easy and was accepted quickly, but when this one was contested so vigorously I started feeling put-upon, like there was a WP:CABAL at work. But in this case there's no real published work attesting to Caroline being based on Laura Dubuk. I'm taking Nyttend's advice and ask her to place a small mention of it on her blog to act as official published Valve verification. Until then I'll just chill. :) Thanks for the insight guys. --SuperAnth: so dubbed by others, perpetuated by action (talk) 18:42, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Whoa there ... it appearing on a blog will also not neccessarily be considered to be a reliable source - even if it's their own blog! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay now I'm confused. The reference to Bill Fletcher being Cave Johnson was also from a blog. This could turn into a slippery slope. Guidance on this guys? Can you hash this out with Nyttend? SuperAnth: so dubbed by others, perpetuated by action (talk) 21:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

If the artist Phil Foglio says on his own blog that he based the physical appearance of his character Buck Godot on his friend John Buckley, the blog is a reliable source. If I post on my blog that the character Comic Book Guy was based on Matt Groening seeing me in an airport one time, that is not a reliable source (and also not true; but John Buckley really did look sorta like that when I knew him and Foglio: yet since I'm not Phil, I'm not a reliable source for that assertion). --Orange Mike | Talk 21:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Orangemike and I are thinking precisely the same thing. I based what I said on WP:SELFPUB, which permits limited use of self-published sources to talk about those sources' authors. Almost any source, no matter how silly and trifling, can be used as a source about itself and its author, as long as we can confirm that it's written by who it says it is. Back to UncleG's point: we won't believe a random person on the Internet who says "I got told this in an email", but when we say "The author says that she based Caroline on Laura Dubuk" and reference that to something the author has said, we're going to believe it, since nobody's more authoritative about the author's opinions than the author herself. Nyttend (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. That's what I was going by. I'll add a ref once she makes her post. SuperAnth: so dubbed by others, perpetuated by action (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Move from Misplaced Pages:Lady Gabriella Windsor to Lady Gabriella Windsor

Can someone please fix this? A user moved it from the main namespace to Misplaced Pages:The Lady Gabriella Windsor in order to avoid having to request a move to The Lady Gabriella Windsor, and I then moved it to the present tile without realising it was still not in the main namespace. (I'm not sure if I am at the right place and I apologise if I am not.) Surtsicna (talk) 23:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done — Hex (❝?!❞) 00:01, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

And tidied up by me. I have move-protected the article for a month - everyone should go away and discuss it properly at WP:RM to get in more people, who might hopefully know what the Misplaced Pages naming convention is for such people (which may or may not be the same as what the Royal Family website calls them, of course). Bencherlite 00:06, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Autoblock

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I figured Id get the fastest response here. I have evidently been caught in an autoblock related to a sockpuppeteer. Haven’t a clue how it happened, but this is what I see when I try to edit a page (while logged in through my standard internet connection -- I had to log in through a proxy in order to post this message). The *appeal* function sounds like its for anonymous users only, so I’m not sure what I’m meant to do. Thanks. Evanh2008  01:11, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

It appears that the blocked editor made an edit using the same IP you were using at 00:35, which triggered the autoblock when you attempted to edit at 00:37. WP:ABK is the place to go, but you will want to have a good explanation for the close together edits. If I were you, I'd be making sure my network is secure... --Tgeairn (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

You should use the {{Unblock-auto}} template on your talk page. Legoktm (talk) 01:52, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Evan's noted on his talk page that he has a dynamic IP address (Google Maps keeps thinking that he's in lots of different places where he doesn't live), so I'm sure that this is what happened. Before he said that, I gave him IP block exemption, since he's a longstanding member of the community (been here since early 2010) who was obviously being blocked innocently. Nyttend (talk) 04:03, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Can someone restore my IFD'd images? Now I can't look back at my old Ref Desk questions

This is for the images linked on my talk page. I mean I could take it to IFD review, but they were drawings used to illustrate a question on the Science Reference Desk, of course they don't have to match all the criteria for article quality, like matching every single criterion of the Chemical Drawing Guidelines or being in SVG. Now I can't look back at my old questions and ponder what they mean. I really don't understand mindless deletion campaign. Can't people leave Reference Desk images alone? Sure they weren't used in any article, but this mindless deletion makes old Ref Desk archives un-understandable. John Riemann Soong (talk) 05:24, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not finding this a particularly compelling reason to summarily overturn another admins properly done actions. I think you will have to ask for a formal review if you want those decisions overturned. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

This does look like a strange rationale for deleting images. I suggest you talk to the deleting administrator or go to Misplaced Pages:Deletion review. Hut 8.5 14:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

topic ban for User:Santos30

Santos30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is POV-pushing his personal views about Crown of Castile, Cross of Burgundy and several other articles. His attempts in Spanish wikipedia were reverted and he was finally blocked for sockpuppetry. He moved to English wikipedia a few months ago, distorting several articles to represent his personal views. He has been edit-warring to keep his changes. Several editors have failed to convince him via discussion. He doesn't acknowledge reliable sources, and he pours poorly-interpreted sources to support his POV. He is slowly moving Crown of Castile into fantasy territory to match his POV. This has been going for long enough.

Despite this, he makes some good work on American Independence articles, I am hoping that the topic ban forces him to stay in articles where he is being constructive.

So I propose a topic ban on:

• flags
• coats of arms
• anything related to Crown of Castile / Crown of Aragon, broadly interpreted

--Enric Naval (talk) 15:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the Crown of Castile or how broad a topic ban related to it would be, but would the proposed topic ban cover xe's created articles? -Nathan Johnson (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Wnt - Request for topic or interaction ban

For some time now, I have felt that I am unable to start a public discussion without User:Wnt showing up to comment. This would be fine, except that Wnt seems unable to accurately process anything that I have written and their responses are littered with misstatements, bizarre accusations, non sequiturs, and just plain nonsense. I do my best to ignore these comments, but I seem to be a bit of a lightning rod for certain people so it is not in my best interests to let inaccuracies go uncorrected. It has reached the point where it has become tiresome and my frequent requests to Wnt to stop this behaviour have gone unheeded. In a discussion I started at User talk:Jimbo Wales#Commons is broken - topless boys edition, Wnt has made a number of false statements about me or my actions. They also referred to me in a related Commons discussion as the "High Inquisitor". Wnt is apparently under the impression that Wikipediocracy "controls" Misplaced Pages and that I am somehow at the heart of this. For example on Commons, they recently wrote "Let's be clear about the purpose of "verified" consent. surely it is so that the folks at Wikipediocracy can get their hot little hands on a leaked list of all the email addresses and names of people who are subjects of something sexually explicit, not merely the uploaders, so that they can out them at great length on their site until some unknown scallywags spam their employers and families with copies of the photos for great victory".

An interaction ban would solve my problem, but topic banning Wnt from noticeboards and Jimbo's talk page would prevent anyone else from having to deal with the same situation in the future. Most of Wnt's contributions are to the reference desks, so I suggest limiting their participation to the reference desks. Oh, and article space, of course. Can someone please make this happen or suggest another way that I can resolve this issue? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:52, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban Looking over the last month of Wnt's contributions, I see nothing that justifies a topic ban from EN noticeboards. There is also no evidence presented to support such a topic ban. Jimbo has historically had an open door policy, unless he wants someone banned from his talk page, I'm not inclined to say we should do it for him. All of the accusations here are about commons and the commons related discussion that you started here, let commons handle it. Other then the problems at Jimbo's talk page, is there anything else recent to support an interaction ban? Monty₈₄₅ 21:10, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

  You can pretty much go to any discussion started by me on WP:AN, WP:ANI, or Jimbo's talk page and see any comments by Wnt (examples: , , , . Here are a couple of recent diffs which display his Wikipediocracy delusions: , . When I reverted a horribly NPOV edit to the BLP of a white supremacist by a "new" user, Wnt went to their user page, gave them some rather questionable advice including "I haven't gone over it in detail but you'll have a smaller range of things to argue about". With me, presumably. I haven't bothered to go back and repair William Luther Pierce and I doubt I will bother if it's just going to be an uphill battle. I would just like Wnt to stop fixating on me and make it possible for me to have a discussion without having to continually rebut his nonsense comments. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

  You can ask Jimbo Wales to ban Wnt from posting on his talk page. He can do that if he want. After all, it's his talk page.--В и к и T 22:38, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban or interaction ban per Monty845.--В и к и T 22:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Unless there's something I'm missing, I don't seen any ban-worthy conduct on Wnt's part here. Wnt seems to post on Jimbo's talk page a lot, so if you're tired of dealing with his arguments you should just avoid posting there. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban or interaction ban. DC, however, has been implicitly asked to stay away from Jimbo's page (see this). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't read that as implying Jimbo doesn't want to hear from DC. I took it as asking editors to stay away from Wikipediocracy. But I might have missed something. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo would probably prefer not to have some of those discussions on his talk page, but if Jimbo wanted me to stay away from his talk page, I am quite sure he would let me know. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I did err in attributing the Naser al-Din Shah reference to Delicious carbuncle; it was JN466 who suggested that. Otherwise, however, you can't expect to ask "Is it time to shut it down and start again?" about a major aspect of Misplaced Pages and not have some disagreement; this is not personal. I should note my concerns about Wikipediocracy were not directed at Delicious carbuncle, who didn't take part, for example, in their recent canvassing for thekohser at Misplaced Pages:Merchandise_giveaways/Nominations. What is frustrating about this is that Delicious carbuncle has brought up child protection situations that did need action, and he deserves substantial credit for that, but the way he phrases them side-tracks the conversation with more contentious issues. Wnt (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

  Wnt, I am not surprised if people disagree with me and I am willing to listen to their comments. What you do is not disagreement - it is misinformation. I do not believe that you are a brilliant troll, as others do, but your idiosyncratic interpretations of my statements amount to the same thing. If you disagreed with what I said, that would be fine, but commenting on something that I have not said and chastising me for things that I have not done makes it difficult for others to follow the conversation. Even in this conversation, you have brought up Wikipediocracy "canvassing" as if tshirt giveaways are actually of some importance. You need to realize that Wikipediocracy is just a web forum with only a handful of active members. You seem unhealthily obsessed with and threatened by it, and I believe that fuels your comments towards me. I could do better by not mocking your comments, but it has become tiresome to try and sort out the nonsense you add to any conversation you are in. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:07, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

  And when you say "child protection situations that did need action", I assume you are talking about this discussion on Jimbo's page about an editor who self-identified as a pro-pedophilia advocate? It still needs action. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban or interaction ban. There are plenty of users who always show up on DC-initiated discussions, because DC canvasses for them on an offwiki site and tries to attract negative publicity for Wikimedia on mainstream news outlets. Inevitably, such exhibitionism will attract dissenting viewpoints as well. I would be more sympathetic to this proposal if the proposer cultivated a more private personality. Also, these discussions are happening on places of great public interest, such as administrator noticeboards and Jimbo's talk page. They are not discussions on obscure articles. It can be tempting to conclude that DC is less interested in building an encyclopedia than in tearing it down, such as by repeatedly trying to associate Commons or Misplaced Pages with pedophilia, etc. Shrigley (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

  Shrigley, am I associating Misplaced Pages with pedophilia, etc, or are the pro-pedophilia advocates who edit here associating it with pedophilia (etc)? Am I trying to "tear down" Misplaced Pages, or am I trying to goad the community into dealing with some of the issues here? Also, I request that you strike your comment about "DC canvasses for them on an offwiki site and tries to attract negative publicity for Wikimedia on mainstream news outlets". That kind of unsupported accusation is a clear personal attack. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

  In order to "support" the "accusation" - which you don't deny, because it is well-known to everybody familiar with your antics - I would have to link to your website and writings there, which I do not want to promote. Accusing others of "personal attacks" is very cynical for somebody who has made a Misplaced Pages career of leading crusades of outing and humiliation against Wikipedians such as Fae who disproportionately identify as LGBT. I would compare what is going on here to a system of continuous 4chan raids, whereupon the imported hordes of commentators seek to impose an authoritarian system on Misplaced Pages to enforce a conservative sexual morality on a majority of Wikipedians who share an "open source software" ethos. Of course you're allowed to have these debates, but don't expect to be able to crush dissent here, as you would on your private website, via topic or interaction bans. Shrigley (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

  Ah, I see. I've been in this situation before when Russavia and others told outright lies about a thread on Misplaced Pages Review in an attempt to have me banned. It is perfectly ok for you to make allegations without providing evidence (in obvious violation of WP:NPA) because I am a bad person. And if I don't deny your accusations strongly enough, they must be true. Oh, and you could prove it, but you won't, because then you would have to link to my site and you wouldn't want to do that. And what's this? I'm also a homophobe because of something about LGBT which I can't quite parse. Plus there's something about 4chan and "imported hordes of commentators" which I have doubtlessly organized. And to top it all off, I am apparently trying impose a "conservative sexual morality" on people. Thanks, I think you have clarified your vote against imposing a topic ban on a barely coherent fantasist who spends most of their time on the troll magnets reference desks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Would someone mind dealing with the gross personal attacks by Shrigley in the section above? I'm not expecting much, but this is the admin noticeboard and there is nothing subtle about these violations of WP:NPA: & . Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Shrigley did not make any personal attacks; they said some negative things, yes, but there's no rule against that, and your description of those comments as "gross personal attacks" is decidedly closer to incivility than anything Shrigley said. In my humble opinion, you're dangerously close to finding yourself the subject of a BOOMERANG thread, per WP:AOBF. You're also far too experienced an editor to think you can get anyone banned without providing a whole lot of diffs, which makes this thread itself a bit POINTy. Argue all you want, but if you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself, I don't see how this is going to end well. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 21:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Get anyone banned? Where did I ask for anyone to be banned? You must really dislike me if you're burning your month-old sockpuppet over this. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. I meant topic-banned. Please either retract your accusation or take me to SPI. Thanks. — Francophonie&Androphilie (Je vous invite à me parler) 21:37, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how accusing someone of sock puppetry without evidence is any better then the conduct you were complaining of. Can someone just collapse the two threads and put an end to it? Monty₈₄₅ 21:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

No, you probably don't, but if you wait long enough, you will. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not in the mood for trolls today. If anyone wants to block me for implying that you aren't the new and uninvolved 16 year old gay user you pretend to be, I'm sure they will also take a close look at your contributions, too. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Franamax

Just to advise all that admin Franamax (talk · contribs) has died. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh my. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh no, that's very sad indeed. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm very sorry to hear that. 28bytes (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

That's terrible. He was a good guy. Condolences to his family. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

May they rest in peace. NE Ent 23:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Sad events such as this really put into perspective the ridiculous squabbles and petty grievances that occur here. Now everyone go write an article, help clear a backlog, or lend a helping hand to a new contributor. --Jezebel'sPonyo 23:29, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I notice that the account is still able to edit. Isn't it standard practice to block accounts of deceased editors with a gracious block message, since any further edits from those accounts would either be role accounts or have been compromised? Nyttend (talk) 23:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Consensus is not to block per Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians/Guidelines. --Rschen7754 23:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

That's terrible! I am so sorry to hear this..... GJC 06:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This is sad news. I liked little Franny a lot. MBisanz 06:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Very sorry to hear that. :( Fran was a good one. Andreas JN466 08:53, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I was shocked to learn about this. Franamax was kind and thoughtful, a very good and likeable person to have around. My condolences to his family.  Roger Davies 12:17, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Very sad news indeed. GiantSnowman 12:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

There's not much I can say except to echo the above, and in particular Roger. This is shocking and very sad news indeed. Franamax was well-regarded on Misplaced Pages and he'll be missed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh wow, this is truly sad news. Sorry to hear it. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Terribly sorry to hear, and my condolences to friends and family. Seraphimblade 13:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

	In honor of Franamax
	This is in honor of Franamax, who has passed away on November 30, 2012. This user will be highly and deeply missed. RIP.

I made this for anybody to put in their userspace who wishes to honor the death of Franamax.—cyberpower _Online 14:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Please consider adding condolences to User talk:Franamax#Condolences. I see several users who have commented here, and not there. This will archive as a regular wp:an thread; Franmax's talk page will remain as a lasting tribute. It is fitting that it should reflect the thoughts of editors moved to comment. My76Strat (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Wow this is a bummer. I just went through a bunch of his contributions, particularly to my talk page, smiling and remembering. Roger said it well above "Franamax was kind and thoughtful, a very good and likeable person to have around." He'll be missed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:19, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Pending changes goes live in three hours

Just a reminder that WP:Pending changes goes live in a little less than three hours. The policy is in the usual place, at WP:Protection policy. Requests should be handled like any regular request, i.e., at WP:RFPP. As a kindness to your fellow editors and admins, please do not drown RFPP in requests on the first couple of days. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Krenair just pointed out on IRC that no one filed a bug request to enable it. Has anyone talked to a dev about getting it turned on? I just asked in #wikimedia-tech. Legoktm (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Nvm, looks like it was never turned off. Special:Log/stable. Legoktm (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

There is a question about what needs to be done, and who is able to do it at being discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:PC2012/RfC 3. It is currently turned on at least for certain testing pages. If turned on generally, it is at least suppressed somehow. If someone knowledgeable on the matter could comment there it would be appreciated. Monty₈₄₅ 21:38, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the question is answered, thanks. Monty₈₄₅ 21:52, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• I will try, as the person at least partially "to blame" for this, to be available to answer any questions, help with any backlogs, absorb gratuitous abuse, etc. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm very confused, as I thought the community rejected having pending changes in mainspace? No objection, since in my mind it's a good idea. Nyttend (talk) 22:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:PC2012#RfCs_and_community-wide_discussions for the executive summary. Monty₈₄₅ 22:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

We should probably expect more of that as well. Every Step of this long process has been listed at WP:CENT at the very least, yet somehow vast portions of the community are still under the impression that PC was rejected a long time ago. I don't know how that happened but we should be aware that some users will be genuinely shocked and possibly pissed off when they see it being used again. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Should this header be updated? --Jezebel'sPonyo 01:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

It should probably just be de-linked as it is now entirely irrelevant. Another detail that was missed was the actual protection interface, which still has not one but two warnings not to use PC. I don't have a clue how to even edit such a page. Anyone know how to fix that? Beeblebrox (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

It'll be via a MediaWiki page, but I don't know which one offhand (there at least four that contribute the various options an d menus on that interface). CBM (talk · contribs) or Amalthea (talk · contribs) might know (there are a handful of other admins who know their way around that namespace, but those two are active). Or you might get a knowledgeable lurker at VPT. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, will try that. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:14, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but is there any chance of getting Pending Changes listed in the options under RPP in Twinkle? Evanh2008  01:33, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure it will be, but may want to ask somewhere around WP:TW. Monty₈₄₅ 01:35, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I already left a request there earlier. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:37, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that. Evanh2008  03:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

So, in terms of implementation, the RfC says that admins are allowed to use pending changes where there has been vandalism, BLP violations or copyright violations. Does this have to be in response to a current problem or can we just merrily start adding PC to pages if they've had vandalism/BLP/copyvio issues in the past? If there are a few pages I keep an eye on that are (say) minor BLPs, can I just switch pending changes on for them, or do we have to wait until there's some incident? I'm so glad there was such an extensive RfC process, by the way, and now we are just flailing around trying to work out what the fuck needs to start being done. A+ for planning, D- for implementation. —Tom Morris (talk) 18:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

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