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Revision as of 20:38, 4 December 2012 editSpoildead (talk | contribs)155 edits →Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list← Previous edit Revision as of 20:39, 4 December 2012 edit undoMilowent (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers48,720 edits keep - many links for your reading amusement.Next edit →
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::::thank you.] (]) 20:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) ::::thank you.] (]) 20:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
:::Considering the controversial nature of the MfD, a neutral message to a central location like the village pump or AN might be desirable. To ensure a representative consensus is reached. ] (]) 20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC) :::Considering the controversial nature of the MfD, a neutral message to a central location like the village pump or AN might be desirable. To ensure a representative consensus is reached. ] (]) 20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': In short: this nomination is being made as part of a grudge match, and should be summarily closed as disruptive. In more detail: This page was previously nominated for deletion in February 2012, and was ], and ]. The new nomination does not even address that history. More importantly, and directly on point, at ], which ran for 3 months (March - June 2012), it was concluded after ''massive'' discussion that "there is no consensus that The Article Rescue Squadron frequently serves as a vehicle for canvassing keep votes at AfD." I cannot see how IRWolfie- thinks his nominating statement here with some random links can overcome that exhaustive discussion. This new MfD is a hastily-brought direct follow-on from mudslinging this week that arose at ] (where you'll see PBP, who votes "Very strong delete" above, is concluded to have been disruptive by an admin -- "there is broad consensus that someone should really tone it down. Sorry PBP, but that's you.") and ]. Well, instead of "toning things down," they've ratcheted this up. IRWolfie- actually decided a few months ago he was going to come up with a new RFC on the ARS after the result of the one in June. (see ] - worth reading). His draft evidence was extremely poor, and he never went forward with the RFC. See ] and ] (deleted at user request), and ]. I had already starting prepping a point by point response to that RfC as he prepped it, because it was absolutely void of merit. See ] (where ] is addressed, I see Wolfie ''still'' used it above!). Apparently Wolfie has now decided to simply ditch the RFC and do a quick and dirty MFD, flustered by the recent discussions I just linked. Now, anyone interested in the work of ARS is welcome to peruse the archives of the ], the nominations, discussions, and resolutions are completely transparent. Its actually a much better historical record than was created when ] existed. You'll see we many times DO NOT rescue articles that's don't merit rescuing, for example. Trying to run around the lengthy recent RFC is wrong, and should be rejected.--''']''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">]</span></sup></small> 20:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:39, 4 December 2012

Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list

Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This project page is being used for canvassing. Including stealth canvassing without any notification (e.g Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Indian castes which was listed as Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list despite being asked to provide the notices .). To my comment "You didn't vote in the AfD, and you did improve the article, but neither warden nor dream edited the article and just voted. This seems consistent with ARS being used as a canvassing tool" was given the response "Wolfie, Dream did in fact make a minor formatting improvement, but you’re basically correct.". Also "Possibly not all active members share your perspective on what we should be doing. Though sadly youre probably right, in the sense that if we want to avoid attack, we should minimise the number of times we vote without making substantial improvements." 15:14 7th Oct Then Bangladeshi political families was listed. 15:18 7 Oct. No improvements have been made to the article as of this verison of the AfD 19:03, 10 October 2012 no edits to the article were made after it was listed. ARS member Dream Focus just turned up to vote keep and didn't improve the article. His rationale was a WP:GOOGLEHITS/WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument: .

Editors on this list turn up at AfDs and vote keep, whilst sometimes severely misunderstanding the topic: evidently confusing Lagrange with Bruno Jobard the actual creator of Lagrangian-Eulerian advection. Same article was beefed up with peripherally connected and irrelevant material : "conceptual breakdown" is a summary of three other terms, providing no specific insight into Lagrangian-Eulerian advection or their relationship to it, the image is of a different method with clear OR as a caption: "visulation of massive bodies of water vapour undergoing advection in the earth's troposphere. This visulation was created using a Lagrangian approach - using a hybrid Lagrangian–Eulerian technique would have been one way to achieve greater detail."

The list regulars use contradictory arguments in different places: AFD is a vote count: , AfD isn't a vote count: . Regulars have an unhealthy obsession characterizing those who vote delete as evil and menacing, including filling their userspaces with blogs about it: i.e User:Dream_Focus.

Some ARS members have tried to argue that the list is available for everyone, but the reality is that the "Rescue list" is aimed towards inclusionists (as is self evident from the name) for AfD keep votes. It is used specifically to let other inclusionists know about AfDs to pile on and as such it is disruptive. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

A small sampling: Five hundred of the 11,271 deletion sorting wikiproject search hits 
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  • Keep - The claim that the list is used for canvassing is ridiculous and contrary to the very definition of canvassing, that requires targeted communication aimed to editors given their known stated point of view or opinion. The wording of the rescue tag is neutral, the list is not targeted to any individual, and it is open to anyone who wants to keep an eye on it; if editors in the deletionist spectrum don't want to follow the discussion posted in it, it's their choice to make, and hardly fault of the list itself. Diego (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
It's well known that your list is followed by extreme inclusionists (i.e 98% keep votes etc). If the list is being used for notification of AfDs and not improving of articles, and if editors in the deletionist spectrum don't follow what's posted here, as you point out, then it's clear that posting here gets you inclusionists at AfDs voting keep. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Should the video game deletion project be deleted because it is followed by "extreme deletionists", or the simpson project be deleted because it is followed by "extreme inclusionists"? Which is the case with both projects.
Diego brings up some excellent points: "canvassing requires targeted communication aimed to editors given their known stated point of view or opinion". A quick glimpse at the ARS project shows that many people who do not support inclusion are extremely active in the ARS. This list up for deletion today is open to anyone to add a neutral article too, and too contribute too.
Instead of deleting a community you don't care for IRWolfie, why not become part of the community instead? Isn't that what[REDACTED] and the thousands of other wikiprojects all about?
If you put the video game deletion project page up for deletion you would be mocked and chastized for disruption, yet doing the same here is okay? Spoildead (talk) 19:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I find it very interesting that you've made 100 edits, had an account for less than a month, never edited anything related to the simpsons or games, but you are aware of their leanings and appear to demonstrate some knowledge of the community. If any project has a page which is used for disruptive purposes there is a strong likelihood that that page will be put up for MfD too. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

*Keep -- Deletion is not in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 18:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You have addressed none of the specific concerns I have raised. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not going to deny that there are some legitimate concerns here and that ARS can used in harmful ways at times, but I simply don't believe that flat out deleting the list is the solution. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 18:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
looks like yet another speedy keep Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list Spoildead (talk) 18:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
so do the thousand of other wikiprojects that have deletion sorting lists canvas and game the system also? What makes them any different except that ARS focuses on all of[REDACTED] and these projects focus on a specific part of wikipedia? Spoildead (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that comparison. Deletion sorting is not an attempt to keep articles. Your project, on the other hand, marks situations as resolved if the article is kept. That obviously leads me to believe that you are being inclusionists. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 19:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Deletion sorting is an attempt to sort articles that are up for deletion. This page does exactly the same. So it is perfectly fine to have List of starships in Stargate listed on the Stargate Deletion sorting page, but it is not okay to list the exact same article on Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list?
The ARS is an attempt to fix articles, but bad articles that have no encyclopedic value should be deleted. That is the same intention of all wikiprojects.
If you want to delete this page for purely philosphical reasons (inclusionists), state that, but it is disingenious to claim that this page is any different than any other wikiproject except for its larger scope. Spoildead (talk) 19:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
it is incredibly telling that the page's coding calls "resolved" ="keep" (in friendly green) while "deleted" = "delete" (in nasty red) and not a neutral "resolved: keep" / "resolved: delete".-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
For reference (for others), here are the two closure tags: When they get deleted: , when they are kept: keep notice. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I notice that some editors come into a discussion, initially !vote one way, then change the !vote. It makes them appear as if they have truly contemplated and thought through the discussion, when their intention was to switch votes all along. interesting.Spoildead (talk) 19:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC) sorry thanks fluff. :) Spoildead (talk) 19:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Spoildead, I see that you're a relatively new editor, so I suspect some of our community norms are new to you. It might be useful for you to take a look at WP:AGF and WP:WIAPA before you carry on in this discussio. Editors on Misplaced Pages are expected to assume good faith of others and avoid attacking others. That would include an expectation that until evidence is provided otherwise, you not imply that others in this discussion have intentions other than honest discussion - and yes, what you said was very clearly intended to imply that, or you wouldn't have mentioned it in reply to AutomaticStrikeout, here. If you (or others) cannot or will not provide evidence for such a thing in the appropriate venue (which would usually be an admin noticeboard, not an MfD), it's considered a personal attack to impugn the motives of someone else. This is not to say that you can't argue, even strenuously, for your position here, but you cannot do it by attacking others. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Very Strong Delete: ARS and its rescue list canvass AfDs, repeatedly vote "Keep" for the slimmest of reasons and create loads of unnecessary drama. From what I've seen in my following of ARS for awhile now, the preponderance of AfDs that have the rescue tag usually get an extra two or three "Keep" votes from ARS members. A perusal through the ARS' archives will note that articles tagged with the rescue tag are very disproportionally kept in comparison to the average AfD outcome; and I echo concerns that the manner in which they are tagged as resolved couldn't be more biased if you got a :-) for kept and a :-( for delete. For the drama creation, look no further than the "Cheese jihadist" debacle. ARS members have a habit of being excruciatingly hostile to mergists, deletionists, or anybody who isn't rabid inclusionists. And to equate them with other WikiProjects is unfair to other WikiProjects. Other WikiProjects do a host of other things besides sort deletions (assess for importance and quality is one that quickly comes to mind). This project just shows up at AfDs to vote, and once in a while dumps the first page of Google hits in both the article and the AfD, claiming them to be reliable sources pbp 19:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Thus far the only editors who have thrown out labels (inclusionist, mergists, deletionists, rabid inclusionists, stealth canvassing) are those who have voted to delete this project. Is the project's existence the source of disruption or the editors who don't want to work together to make the project better, and instead insist the project be deleted? Spoildead (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, but "nearly all" Wikiprojects do other things as well, and "nearly all" Wikiprojects aren't at ANI over and over again for the numerous bad practices I outlined above. I've never bought into this "WikiProjects can do whatever they want" argument", especially when it's some place like ARS that doesn't have the full compliment of Wikiproject qualities and is at ANI so often. Frankly, I'm not 100% sure that ARS should even be designated a Wikiproject pbp 19:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean by The MfD is supposed to be used for maintenance only. This proposed deletion is for changing a policy, not maintaining the structure of Misplaced Pages. There is no policy requiring the existence of the rescue list. This isn't a project with a set scope like other projects and the list isn't in deletion sorting; rather the act of putting an article for deletion or prodding it makes it become "in scope". The list is being used disruptively, and that's something which hasn't been addressed despite it being pointed out numerous times over the last few months (attempts to try and deal with the problems have resulted in being rebuffed). Saying that it's not an intrinsic property of the list (as others have tried to argue) doesn't mean that it's not being used disruptively. If something is being used disruptively, where the bad outweighs the good, it's a good time to get rid of it. I did even try and list something here before earlier on, (in a situation where I voted merge, but hoped it could be improved through good research) but was sorely disappointed when the ARS members just turned up to vote with minimal improvement (and an ARS member turned up and did a NAC keep to boot). IRWolfie- (talk) 19:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Since you're in the business of notifying people, go ahead and notify all the people who participated in last week's TfD on Template:Rescue list as well... pbp 20:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
thank you wolfie for the great suggestion, you or anyone else is welcome too. :) Spoildead (talk) 20:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The set of editors who have participated at Misplaced Pages:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list is almost certainly biased in favor of retention. It should be obvious that contact only that group constitutes impermissible canvasing. Your inclusion in your messages of a selected part of the canvasing rules shows you knew in advanced that your canvasing would be controversial; further your response above, inviting someone else to contact more people to essentially counteract your canvasing, shows you knew what you were doing was biased canvasing. Monty845 20:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is a sample notification: in which I post WP:Canvassing policy:
An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion might place a message at one of the following:
...On the talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics...The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it. (emphasis my own).
In which I quote specific WP:Canvassing policy.
On the other hand, your opinion is empty of any policy backing up your assertions. Therefore I would appreciate you striking these comments as they have no basis in WP:Canvassing rules.
Also please don't template editors for strictly following[REDACTED] rules.
thank you.Spoildead (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Considering the controversial nature of the MfD, a neutral message to a central location like the village pump or AN might be desirable. To ensure a representative consensus is reached. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions Add topic