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	Vietnam NA‑class
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Naming convention debate

Lunar <-> Solar date conversions_Solar_date_conversions-2010-07-05T06:34:00.000Z">

Does anyone know of a facility that can change things eg 1st of the 12th lunar month of 1225 to a Solar date? I wanted to get this so that some dates about Vietnamese history could be added to WP:SA YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)_Solar_date_conversions"> _Solar_date_conversions">

http://www.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~duc/amlich/amlich.exe <-Try this (need java to run). Or online version. They are all accuracy.--AM 09:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about the accuracy of this converter for dates prior to 1967. In 1967, the DRV (North Vietnam) government changed the base time of the calendar to use Hanoi time instead of Beijing time as it was before. This change resulted in Tet 1968 occuring on January 29 in the North and January 30 in the South (due to this difference, some attacks during the Tet offensive happened a day too early due to miscommunication). This calendar seems to use Hanoi time for dates prior to 1967 to calculate the date. DHN (talk) 17:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I tested these programs by finding out the solar dates of 15/1/1762 and 19/12/1820 (birth and death dates of Gia Long) and then comparing with the solar dates which given by PhD Tran Duc Anh Son, a famous figure in Nguyen Dynasty's history. The result are same and I assume these tools are accuracy because Tran Duc Anh Son said that he found these solar dates by using traditional hand calculating method, not a date calculating software.--AM 05:14, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Other online version of the .exe tool abrove.--AM 05:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Big bad locator maps

Ok, since everyone's watching this page now, I'd like to bring up the issue of the huge locator maps on Vietnam geography articles (see Figure 1, at right). We all know Vietnam is a loooooooooong country, and that means that putting a map of the country in an infobox results in a very looooooooooooooong infobox. I've had a particular beef about this on the Hanoi article, where the combination of top image, logo and locator maps takes up over 75% of the infobox height, which currently stands at 1756 pixels (in Firefox 3.6, WinXP Pro). Don't get me wrong, the maps we're using are beautiful, they're just so huge. This also means we have many articles where the dominant content seen on the page is a big locator map (like Hà Tĩnh, or the above-mentioned Vĩnh Long).

I don't really know what's the best way to deal with this. One alternative might be to make the default map width shorter, as we see on Santiago, Chile (Chile being another long, thin country). Another alternative might be to use a composite map graphic, with the outline of the entire country to one side and a zoom-in on the particular region (i.e. Northern, Central, Southern) to the other side, making the entire graphic wider than it is tall. There's an example of this on the Hanoi article, but I don't think it's very well executed. Overall, though, I just feel that leaving the locator maps at their present size unbalances the articles they're on (since size = importance in design), along with causing other design challenges (see my comment on the Hanoi talk page, where the infobox is overlapping the climate box in Safari). Any comments on this? Agreement? Disagreement? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

250px is fine I think. The problem is that the old maps were conssiderably shorter and were set at 300px. Now with this map 300px is way too big and even 250 is pushing it. Dr. Blofeld 20:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I suppose the location map would be nicer and more well-proportioned if we incorporate the Spratly and Paracel Islands into the current loooong map. Nguyễn Thanh Quang (talk) 07:02, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Could I suggest something similar to the United Kingdom maps, an example of which is at Lancaster, Lancashire. A small inset of the whole country pinpoints the region (or province), which is then presented in some detail. It would need a lot of work from someone good at producing maps (I know the British series took months to produce), but it would be worthwhile. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

That's pretty much what I was thinking of—an inset of the country with a close-up of the province in question. I've added an example to illustrate the concept (forgive the poor quality). Thoughts? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 17:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It needs work (a relief map isn't ideal for this sort of purpose), but the principal seems right. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Photograph request

For those of you in Hanoi, would someone mind photographing the head office of Vietnam Airlines? It is at 200 Nguyen Son Street, Long Bien, Hanoi, Vietnam. Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

It may not be exactly the one you wanted, but I've just uploaded a pic of the Quang Trung Rd. office of Vietnam Airlines to Commons. Will that help? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 04:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Copyright status on VNese government photos

I've read in the descriptions of certain files (for instance, this one) that works of the Vietnamese government are in the public domain, and I've got a few questions about that. First off, is there an online source that can confirm this? Not that I doubt it, but it'd be nice to satisfy my own curiosity on the issue. Second, does this mean that works created by all branches (i.e. Ministries, Departments, state-owned corporations) of the National government are in the public domain? Third, how far back in time does this rule apply? Since 1976? Since 1954? Should all government works created before the dissolution of French Indochina be considered works of the French government—and, in that case, are they considered public domain?

I found a reference on Media copyright questions that seems to answer a few questions, but not very clearly, so I figured I'd ask here. And now for a real-life example, just to give you all something to chew on: I've got several articles in my sandbox about Rail transport in Vietnam, and I'd like to find more pictures for uploading to Commons to add to these articles. The Ministry of Transportation has a number of historical photos on their website, as does Vietnam Railways, a state-owned corporation. Can we assume that some or all of these photos are public domain, and uploadable to Commons? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 17:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

First, I want to tell something about the government (current and formers) works' copyright. In general, it is in gray zone of Vietnam's law. The current government bans most of the former governments' works, which they called unorthodoxy or reactionary so they don't have a clear copy right status. Even the copyright status of current government's works is unclear. The only law which deal with this matter is the current Copyright Law (2005) which says "all published official document of the government is in public domain" but it never mention what 'published official document of the government' is. The main cause of this situation is that VNese people barely go to the court even if someone violate their copyrights so that the law marker only update the Copyright Law occasionally when some country ask VN to do so (in other words, most people don't respect copyright at all). In Vietnam, if you want to use a copyrighted works; just use it =D (you could see that there are many operational MP3.com copycats in Vietnam such as Zing Mp3, nhacso ...).

In regard to Phan Dinh Phung.jpg. I think this picture's license is wrong as I explain above. But this file's copyright status could be safely assume "public domain" because this is the worship picture of Phan Dinh Phung in his tomb.

In regard to the government's website's works. I don't think we can use them in Misplaced Pages because two thing: there is no clear copyright status in Vietnam and most of the government's websites usually use copyrighted works without proper permissions. Misplaced Pages is one of their victims; they often use Wikipedians' works but never attribute its authors like the work's license requests (you could ask Lưu Ly about that =D ).--AM 16:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Haha! I know what you mean, and I'm glad (sort of) to hear confirmation of what I suspected anyway. I know very well how fast and loose copyright is in Vietnam, and I've even fallen victim to the same wiki-poaching you've described: this map, depicting Line 1 of the currently-under-construction Ho Chi Minh City Metro, magically appeared on VietnamNet news not long after I created it and added it to the English wiki article. Not that I'm particularly broken up about it, of course; besides, at the very least, they added a "(Misplaced Pages)" tag to the image.

And yeah, regarding the photos on the Vietnamese government websites, I had a strong suspicion that most of them might be copyrighted, especially seeing as there was no attribution or copyright information visible anywhere. It's kind of a bitch, because it means I'll have to scrounge that much more if I want to get good pictures of railways in Vietnam and their history. Just about the only historical photos we have right now are from French-era postcards dated from the 1900s (so that copyright has most probably expired); I'm not sure about those either, of course, and I certainly wouldn't know enough to upload more. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Another related question, to build on what you've said. Is this template accurate? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 20:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this template is accuracy. But there is one thing you should notice, you should have to prove the work which you want to apply that template has been published for more than 50 years. You could use direct or indirect evidence (such as here). This is quite tricky because Vietnam is not stable long enough to let first-published works survive until today. Everytime a new government rises to power, they often ban and clear most of the old regime's cultural work regardless to the contents. This often result a total or near-total loss of many work. Regarding to the French colony's works, we could safely use them because most of them has been published for more than 50 yrs and most of their authors has died.

As in Misplaced Pages, the best thing we could do here is avoid using the modern's work and assume license for the old one (prior to 1960) in good faith.--AM 01:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for this. One thing I've noticed is that many of the photos taken by French photographers seem to be copyrighted even today; working on an article related to the First Indochina War, for example, I've found that many official sources of military photos from that era demand written permission to use them (see here, for example). Another example is this file, by photographer Pierre Dieulefils. Even though he's probably been dead for over 50 years, this site, again, says don't use Dieulefils's photos without explicit permission. (I hate to bring it up, actually, since many of his photos are pretty useful for some of the articles I've been working on.) Is there any way around this, or should we seek written permission to keep these kinds of photos on Commons? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 14:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that Vietnam is the successor of French Indochina. Therefore, all photos which was taken in French Indochina should follow VN copyright law.--AM 14:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, but what about Laos and Cambodia? Indochina was composed of territory from all three countries, and I doubt that photos taken in the Cambodian part of Indochina would fall under Vietnamese copyright law. Man, this is confusing. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Cambodia and Laos' copyright law (if they do exist) but I don't think they are so different from Vietnam's one since Vietnam has a strong influence over these two contries. However, we can solve this problem by assumption (again), we could determine the location of the photos through its contents (places, people..). If they are taken in Vietnam, they should follow Vietnam's copyright law.--AM 01:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if French Indochina was part of the French Empire, copyright laws in France are life of author plus 70 years. A lot of the photos taken before 1940 should now be public domain. yellowtailshark (talk) 11:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Good point, and that's stated at Commons:Licensing. I find the whole "life of author plus 70 years" thing difficult to deal with though, since in a lot of these cases we're not sure. But then I guess when we're not sure, we can use the publication date (pre-1940) in good faith; if it turns out that copyright is still active, the image in question can just be removed from the Commons later on. Reading up on French copyright laws really gives me a headache, like the bit about images from Government sites.

Oooh, actually, life of author plus 70 means we count 70 years after the death of the author. So photos with expired copyrights are ones whose authors died pre-1940. That's a pretty tall order to figure out. yellowtailshark (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Back to the Dieulefils question, though, this page explains the copyright status of the works displayed on the abovementioned site, stating that they are protected by moral rights. Obviously they want permission to be obtained before using the photos, but I'm confused as to what this means for their licensing status. Does this mean the photos are still copyrighted? Some form of limited public domain? Would seeking permission for the photos and archiving said permission in OTRS suffice? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 14:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks like Moral Rights is a separate body of legislative protections for authors that differs from copyright. Of note is that it allows the author the right to be attributed to their work, even if they sold their work or published it into public domain, and secondly, it can bar usage of that work if the author can prove that it would tarnish their reputation or what not. French copyright law#Moral rights is a good read. I think in our case, usage on Misplaced Pages would be reasonable so long as we do not damage the reputation of the author. But what's not clear to me yet is if moral rights enforcement is transferable. Otherwise asking for permission from a deceased author is a bit of an impossibility. yellowtailshark (talk) 00:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hanoi collab proposal

I've been looking at the Hanoi article for the past little while and it just occurred to me: why don't we do a small- to medium-scale collab to bring the article up to, say, GA-class? I don't know much about assessment (I'm still not entirely sure how to check articles against B-class criteria), but it seems like it would be really nice to get that article to a respectable quality level, and with enough editors pitching in we might be able to do some good work. We could even do it to celebrate the '1000 years' festival coming up. Any thoughts? How many of us would be able to give some time to such a collab? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a wonderful idea but I can't guarantee to give it much attention. I'll be busy in real life and then on wikibreak all of August. Hope people do want to do it though. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I have the "Hanoi:Biography of a City" by William S Logan which I can email to anyone YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Petrovietnam

There is a discussion concerning the name of Vietnam Oil and Gas Group (Petrovietnam) in English. The common name of this company is Petrovietnam, however there are two options for spelling, both options (Petrovietnam and PetroVietnam) in use. E.g. Reuters have used in different news different form ( and ). Same goes with other websites. The company's English website uses spelling Petrovietnam. I would like to ask your input which form should be used in the Petrovietnam's article. Beagel (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right that the company is pretty consistent in their own usage throughout their website (with certain exceptions). I did a little review of some of the top sites showing up on Google and the breakdown looks like this: PetroVietnam is used by Reuters and its affiliates, Business Week, Bloomberg , and the English versions of Thanh Nien , Dan Tri , SGGP , VOVNews , VietnamNet (from Tuoi Tre) , Vietnam News , and even the Communist Party of VN's website ; Petrovietnam is used by the company itself and its subsidiaries, Oilvoice (seems to be a notable industry site), Google Finance , and the English versions of a number of foreign (Russian, Japanese) news sites (,) ; JBIC gets around the problem by using ALL CAPS ; and other companies, like Citibank, seem to be confused about the matter, using both styles on one page . Usage doesn't really seem to have settled on one or the other, but we can see that many news sites tend to use PetroVietnam. I'd venture a guess that that's probably due to the influence of Reuters, which got emulated by the Vietnamese dailies on their English sites (or possibly the other way around). The reasoning is probably that they want to see the names of countries capitalized. Still, we can see that a number of sites (people who want to get it "right"?) used the non-caps version.

Any other thoughts? I could see it going either way; "Pv" is official, but "PV" is common. This is reminding me of our above discussion about diacritics, too... --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 14:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that PVN itself care how to write its name. The only thing I see that they use the charater "V" to form up a fire which is their logo. However, VNese medias tend to captize the first words of names wherever they are.--AM 15:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Tran Thu Ha

The article on Vietnamese musician Tran Thu Ha has been tagged as an unreferenced BLP. I have tried and failed to find references to support the text (which also needs rewriting). I'm posting here in the hope that someone with more knowledge and language skills might take an interest and provide reliable sources.--Plad2 (talk) 21:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

A few sundry links that might help:

• http://books.google.com/books?id=0bkEfqTlfIEC&lpg=PA162&ots=c2fXQ7xj2P&dq=%22Tr%E1%BA%A7n%20Thu%20H%C3%A0%22%20music%202002&pg=PA145#v=onepage&q=Tr%E1%BA%A7n%20Thu%20H%C3%A0&f=false (probably the best ref I found)
• http://books.google.com/books?id=K8B4N8GV2tsC&pg=PA47&dq=Tran+Thu+Ha&hl=en&ei=RBpbTMmIA8P58Ab63_XaAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Tran%20Thu%20Ha&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=C8MGRzQcfxIC&lpg=PR9&dq=Tran%20Thu%20Ha&pg=PA154#v=onepage&q=Tran%20Thu%20Ha&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=0oeEpKDCmV4C&lpg=PA8&dq=%22Tran%20Thu%20Ha%22&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q=%22Tran%20Thu%20Ha%22&f=false

It's not easy to find English-language references that aren't blogs or forums... par for the course I guess. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 20:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Saings on Paris By Night semi-regularly YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

List of railway lines in Vietnam

FYI, List of railway lines in Vietnam has been listed for peer review with an aim to prepare it for Featured List submission. Please give it a look through if you have the chance. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 19:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Hoa Lu Ancient Capital

Hello, anyone can proofread this article please ? BTW, I think the title should be Hoa Lu (ancient capital). Thank you, Comte0 (talk) 14:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey—I left some comments on the article's talk page. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. As Kien1980v has been the main writer of this article, I left a note on his talk page. Comte0 (talk) 21:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Canpark writing VN War battle articles purely from communist newspapers

Has anyone else noticed? Some of them claimed that the VC were outnumbered 10/15 to 1 and killed in one case, 190 times as many anti-communists. Since contemporary communist papers of the day claimed that the Americans had shackled all of S Viets together and used rottweilers etc to force them to do this or the other, I can't see how VC papers can be used at all, as everything in there was a hoax to inflate VC soldiers' morale YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Those articles (original ones in Vietnamese) are intended to be read for relaxing, I think. As ký sự (chronicle, a kind of half novel/memoir, half fact), they don't have enough academic and information value to be used as sources here. At least the editor (Canpark) should use sources from US or South Vietnam to balance the neutrality instead of distorting the credibility of Vietnamese sources by using propaganda sources as academic sources. Grenouille vert (talk) 03:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Amore Mio says there is a story claiming that 2VC wiped out two ARVN battalions, which sounds ridiculous, and I don't know of any US/SV source that inflates by 10X factor. Nguyen Cao Ky is the biggest rubbish SV guy out there and even he isn't this ridiculous, although his extreme ego is always amusing YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

It's only a matter of evaluating source, we here have to consider which source is propaganda and which one is credible, IMO Canpark tried to discredit Vietnamese sources by using a propaganda article as an academic source. Even US has that kind of propaganda like this rubbish. So Vietnamese source is not the problem, the real issue is how we use sources. Grenouille vert (talk) 09:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Not to go off topic, but that "rubbish" you link looks like an editorial, which aren't reliable sources for giving facts. Ed  02:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Endorsed. We can use Vietnamese sources to make Vietnam War-related articles less bias but we should use them with great care. We shouldn't use online newspapers at all because most of the Vietnamese journalists has never did any research and they often make mistakes while writing.--AM 14:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi all, thanks for bringing this thread to my attention. I don't feel like justifying myself for using Communist-sourced newspapers, despite the fact that certain members have argued those sources cannot be used as an academic source. I agree to a certain extent. But look at it this way; if the Americans could claim they had killed huge numbers of VC despite being outnumbered in certain battles during the war, then I guess Communist Vietnam could do the same thing. After all it takes two to distort history, since American articles ONLY use American or other Western sources. Don't discredit a source simply because it's Communist. Canpark (talk) 11:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but if the US military published flagrant nonsense about anything important, the likes of David Halberstam and Neil Sheehan embarrassed them rather quickly. In NV there is no such mechanism. Your claim that US historians and journalists only interview US eyewitnesses is not correct for the former, and they are not involved, unlike a current army newspaper. As for kill ratios, one obvious reason is that they had much more air power to simply bomb everything, whereas the VC did not ply aeroplanes during guerilla actions YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the NV newspapers should be used to express the NV POV, and nothing more. To put it bluntly, their government and newspapers didn't exactly have a stellar record for accurate reporting. The ideal solution would be to use the newspapers for the views on the ground at the time and for initial reactions to certain battles; for other information, especially casualty figures and other easily disputed information, researched secondary sources (preferably peer-reviewed) should be used and cited. See also "Reliable sources in military history". Ed  02:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No one else treats these old soldier war stories as a serious source. Using them makes us look like naive dupes. The communists themselves certainly didn't get their war news from reading articles like these. If you want to find out how the leadership made decisions and what they really thought about the war, I recommend, The Vietnam War from the Other Side (2002) by Cheng Guan Ang. For the official view, there is Victory in Vietnam (2002). Kauffner (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

US naming or International naming?

I changed the Category:Transportation in Vietnam from US Engl. to International Engl. Now some US editor is contesting it at: Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_September_6#Category:Transportation_in_Asia TruckCard (talk) 02:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Vietnam articles have been selected for the Misplaced Pages 0.8 release

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Gulf of Tonkin Incident

FYI, Gulf of Tonkin Incident has been nominated to be renamed. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 02:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Ngo Dinh Diem

A rather brutish way to establish consensus, but someone is requesting users comment (or "vote") on whether some Chinese characters should be included in this article. Please take a look if you would be so kind. S.G. _ping! 12:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought a straw poll might be a good idea, but this one is laid out in such a silly way I'm disinclined to participate. It would be better to have a discussion here and draw up guidelines for when it's appropriate to include Chinese characters. A bit like we did for diacritics. I was so sorry to see the ad hominems on the article talk page. English-language Misplaced Pages should welcome all editors who can write English to native or near-native standard. We shouldn't be bitching at each other for only being fluent in two or three languages. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree the "quiz" is stylised in a way to be a bit abrasive, but either way some consensus "evidence" might put this to bed. S.G. _ping! 20:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Nguyen Chanh Thi

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Nguyen Chanh Thi/archive1: VN War General who was involved in a lot of coups. And he tried to overthrow Diem, above YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

History of Vietnam subsections

I inserted some subsections into the Divided Period, mainly so I could make sense of it myself. It might be a bit rough and ready though. If you can do it better or can add to or improve this high-importance article, please do. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

History of Vietnam since 1945

I have to contest the figures cited for fatalities in Vietnam after the Vietminh victory. The figures are sourced from R.J. Rummel, who is crap, a Heritage-Foundation level scholar with a serious slant: his sources for Vietcong versus North Vietnamese vs civilians killed in 1965-1975 era are the bombing parties, the US and the South Vietnamese armies. Not credible. Discussion of the subject must remain vague until real figures can be obtained. --MarkB2 11:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/December 1964 South Vietnamese coup/archive1

Up and running YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:21, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/September 1964 South Vietnamese coup attempt/archive1

Up and running YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Non-English characters in dab page, article page, redirect page names, up for RfC

See WT:Article titles#Non-Roman characters in redirects to articles, where an RfC has been opened on the use of non-English characters in page titles for disambiguation and redirect titles (and there appears to also be discussion about article titles) 76.66.203.138 (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese help

• How do you say "Logo of the Houston Independent School District" in Vietnamese?
• The image that needs the description is at: File:HoustonISDVietnameseLogo.PNG
• "Houston Independent School District" in Vietnamese is "Khu Học Chánh Houston"

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

According to vi.wiki, "Biểu trưng" is Vietnamese for "logo". So the phrase should be something like "Biểu trưng của Khu Học Chánh Houston". --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:37, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Notability question

As a new page patroller, I have recently found myself involved in pages about the Vietnamese singer Ha Thanh Lich and her new album release Ha Trang. I can find no reliable sources in English that mention this singer. Can someone do a search in Vietnamese to see if there is any coverage of this singer and her music? From what I can gather, she appears to be quite popular in the Vietnamese-American community, but I suspect that any legitimate reviews of her music would only appear in Vietnamese language periodicals. I am loath to move these articles to a deletion discussion until I have done due diligence on a search for sources. Thanks for your help! WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 15:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

An article about her was written in vi.wiki but was deleted due to lack of notability. DHN (talk) 21:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Was that a speedy deletion or the result of a deletion discussion? WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 21:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Speedy. DHN (talk) 22:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Question about a "self-published" reference

For the past while I've been working on articles related to Rail transport in Vietnam—my expansions to the eponymous article just went up on Jan. 4th and are getting ready to go up on DYK. My current question is about a particular file I'd like to use as a reference, but I'm not sure if it's admissible as a reliable source: a detailed map of railways in Vietnam. It was published by a forum user named CADer whose website, daumaytoaxe.com, is a Vietnamese forum devoted to railways. At the bottom right of the map, he's noted his sources for putting it together, including "Bản đồ giao thông Việt Nam" (a road map of Vietnam which seems to show railway lines—see here: http://www.cadviet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5189), Google Maps, and the Vietnam Railways website (for the locations of train stations). The question is, given the fact that he's provided his own sources, is this map a reliable source, despite the fact that it's an amateur creation that's mainly been made available through forums? I'd certainly like to be able to use it more, since it's just about the most complete and detailed map of Vietnam's railways I've found on the Internet. Thoughts? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 04:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Bump for continued relevance—otherwise, any ideas as to where I should ask this question? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 03:23, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Since you can't use that map directly anyways, why don't you use the references cited in that map and draw up your own? You can find the list of train stations in Vietnam here: . DHN (talk) 08:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

.JPG File

Hue Massacre Internment.jpg

Internment should be Interment.

This file is at Role of the United States in the Vietnam War, Border battles and the Tet Offensive (paragraph 3.5).

I hesitate to make this change because the misspelling is not only in the Title, but also in a Link. The file is a candidate to be copied to the Wikimedia Commons.

I hope someone can look at the file and fix it. Very respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 05:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I've added a rename tag to it; an administrator should be able to make the change soon enough. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Need photos taken in Vietnam?

I'll be going back to Vietnam for Tết in about a week, and while I'll probably be too busy to work on any articles over there, I am planning on taking some pictures for adding to Commons. I'm expecting to go to the following places: Da Nang, Can Tho, Qui Nhon and Ho Chi Minh City. Here's where you come in—if you'd like me to take any specific photos of any of these places (photos of monuments, buildings, specific areas, etc), please let me know here or on my talk page as soon as possible. I can't guarantee that I'll be able to honour all requests, as I will have other things to do in each place and I may not be able to get to certain out-of-the-way places, but I figured I'd throw out a notice in case I could be of service to anyone out there. Chúc mừng năm mới! --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

A little update: out of my collection (including this most recent trip, and reaching back two years), I've identified 500 photos so far, illustrating different locations (including Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City, Da Nang, Hoi An, Huế, Da Lat, Quy Nhon, Can Tho, and Sa Pa), situations and aspects of Vietnamese life. There are a number of photos of pagodas, churches, and other places of worship; markets, shops and street vendors; airports and train stations; some government buildings, hospitals, schools, and various other institutions of society; various vehicles, including airplanes, boats, trains, municipal buses, inter-city buses, taxis, motorbikes, and the like; bridges, roads and railways; some photos of Vietnamese customs in action (funerals, weddings, betrothals); foods; landscapes; signs; and many more. Until I have the time to upload them all (which might be long in coming), perhaps the best way for all of you to see the photos you want is to ask (under "Requests" below) whether I could upload a certain type of photo (pagodas in Ho Chi Minh City, for example), and I'll upload my best shots posthaste. Most of these aren't great works of art, they're just plain, illustrative shots of different facets of Vietnam, so don't expect Ansel Adams or anything. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 11:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

For those of you who want to have a quick view of what I've uploaded to Commons so far, you can check out the following Categories (more to come as time goes on):

• Photos of Vietnam by Dragfyre
• Photos of Hanoi by Dragfyre
• Photos of Ho Chi Minh City by Dragfyre
• Photos of Da Nang by Dragfyre

Requests

Sp33dyphil

• Tan Son Nhat International Airport, with Vietnam Airlines planes, (used for the airline's article)
  • Tried to get a good shot, but I've only gotten night shots so far. It's hard to get a good angle too. Going to wait and see if I can get some during the day for better visibility and maneuverability. Update: Been trying to get good shots, but no luck so far—never able to get the right angles. That said, There are a few shots of VNA planes at TSN on Commons (File:Vietnam Airlines loading supplies TSN.JPG, File:VietnamAirlines TanSonNhut.JPG), and there seem to be several more on flickr that could be transferred to commons (). See any in there that could be good? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 04:12, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Update 2: I got shots of a Vietnam Airlines plane with the new international terminal in Da Nang. Will this do for now? ;) --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:37, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort, they are good pictures. I've very appreciative for your time :) Sp33dyphil 00:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Itsmejudith

This is just from a rapid trawl of HCM City and Da Nang related pages.

• All the universities in the two cities, no articles currently have photos. Ideally for each, a photo of the main administrative building and one or more photos with students in - students outside a teaching building, a residence block.
  • Will see if I can do a run of uni's in Da Nang soon, and will try to hit up a few major ones in HCMC. Are there any super-important ones in HCMC that should have priority, if, say, I could only get a pic of one? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 10:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Wherever you can easily visit the campus. Local people will know which unis are most prestigious, longest-established. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:01, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
      • Snapped a few shots of the University of Da Nang's Le Duan campus; its campuses are spread really far apart, so I'm not too sure I'll be able to get any of the others. I should be able to swing by some of the others, too, like the downtown campus of Duy Tan, Dong A, and others that are close. Coming back to HCMC later in the month, and will snap a few more shots then. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 09:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Went to visit the Ho Chi Minh City Architecture University; got a number of shots of the building, and a few shots of students in classes that could be used for Education in Vietnam. Also went for a quick tour of Quy Nhon University, so I have a couple shots of that one I could contribute too. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 04:12, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
• Hotel Majestic, Saigon
  • Got it! It's all dolled up with Tet decorations right now. Got a few shots with the new Bitexco tower in the background, too. , --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 10:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
• Saigon Zoo and Botanical Gardens
• Voice of Ho Chi Minh City (radio station) building
  • For the rest of these, I'll try when I come back in Feb.—in Da Nang right now. Update: Couldn't get either of these, unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure we can find photos of the zoo on flickr (see here!). As for the VoHCMC building, another time I guess... --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 10:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Itsmejudith (talk) 15:25, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Great work! Itsmejudith (talk) 11:01, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Party congress results

The results of the party congress have been announced. The new general secretary, Nguyễn Phú Trọng, would appear to be a figurehead since he is only No. 8 on the Politburo list. This would leave Trương Tấn Sang, president designate and Politburo chief, as Vietnam's real boss. He's a mystery dude we don't even have an entry for. Kauffner (talk) 12:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Whoever makes updates on party leadership should probably consider expanding the stub for the Eleventh National Congress of the Communist Party of Vietnam, too. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I created an article for Trương Tấn Sang. Kauffner (talk) 09:52, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Health in Vietnam merge

Just wanted to call attention to a situation on the article Health in Vietnam. This article, which is of high importance but is fairly rudimentary, has been tagged for merging with two other articles, Vietnam Health System and Vietnamese view of health and illness and utilization of health care. Both of these were lower-quality articles (the "utilization" one looked like it might have been a high school essay, but a referenced one, with offline references to a number of books; the "health system" one was woefully underreferenced), but were tagged for merging in the hopes that something from them might have been used to expand the main health article, which is needlessly short. Just today, what seems to be one anonymous user (first using 74.178.192.228 and now 74.178.192.229) has "merged" Health in Vietnam and Vietnam Health System, where "merging" means, in this case, "appended one article to the other".

Now, to be fair, a merge, any merge, needed to be done on these articles; still, though, the result of the present merge is a mess, and I'm sure it's not what's intended when we talk about merging articles. I wouldn't necessarily want to undo the merge either, since the two lower-quality articles were pretty bad and didn't really deserve to stand alone. Anyone else have any thoughts? I'm not in a position to do a proper merge at this time, due to my travel plans; I guess I just wanted to throw this out to see if anyone could take the lead on it. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 02:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm doing a little bit of basic cleanup, i.e. taking out nearly all of the Vietnam Health System material which is an unsourced essay about health systems in general. See what you think when you're back from your travels. Happy New Year! Itsmejudith (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts on it! I originally thought the essays could be saved and refactored, but I guess it's better to just delete the cruft for the sake of maintaining article quality (and getting rid of possible copyvios). I've actually kept a copy of the "View of health and illness" in my sandbox, mainly because it seemed to have some good references that could be reused. Hopefully when I have some time... --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 03:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Dang Phuong Nam

Hi

The article is in a very bad state as it needs someone to look at it again.

If it was machine translated from a vietnamese wiki it could do with someone trying to translate it properly.

Chaosdruid (talk) 00:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Definitely machine translated from Vietnamese. Shows how ridiculous the result of such attempts can be. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Tai viet

Unicode has script encoded called "Tai Viet" (see Scripts_in_Unicode, Unicode (pdf)). Can someone say what the link is with any Vietnamese topic (probably script or Tai language), or anything else? Or maybe it is just spelled different here at WP. Now it is a red link in {{Unicode navigation}}. -DePiep (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)  Tai Dam language comes closest. -DePiep (talk) 23:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Page on naming conventions updated

I have revised WP:Naming conventions (Vietnamese) to reflect the vote that was taken in July. Kauffner (talk) 09:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Since no one has objected, I have promoted the page to official status. I hope everyone finds the guidelines useful. Kauffner (talk) 15:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your hard work! Since the discussion is pretty much done for now, I've moved the discussion from this talk page to a separate archive (see the archive box at the top of this page) so that we can find it easily. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Which HCMC district is this in?

116 Boulevard Nguyen-Hue. Saigon. South Vietnam - That is where the headquarters of Air Vietnam was

What district of Ho Chi Minh City was this located in?

And were the district boundaries the same until the fall of Saigon?

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Most likely District 1. Today that address is an office of Vietnam Airlines. DHN (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

District 1, see this map. District 1 was created in 1959, enlarged in 1976. So everything that was District 1 is still District 1. Kauffner (talk) 00:01, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

template:Needquocngu up for deletion

{{Needquocngu}} has been nominated for deletion. 64.229.101.183 (talk) 05:46, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Nanyue and Nam Viet

Nanyue has been requested to be renamed again, see Talk:Nanyue. 65.95.14.96 (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

New userbox

FYI, I've gone ahead and created a new userbox template, {{User wikivi}}, for those of us who contribute to the Vietnamese Misplaced Pages. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese naval ship image deletions

Image:Truong Sa Navy.jpg and Image:RVNS Ly Thuong Kiet.jpg have been nominated for deletion. 64.229.100.45 (talk) 07:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Help requested filling in V-League seasons

User:Hockeyben has graciously created articles for all the seasons of the V-League, filling in quite a few redlinks on that page. The new articles need a few go-overs for formatting, wikilinking, adding templates and filling in infoboxes; this would be a good job for anyone with access to AWB to take on. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 19:35, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Gallery policy?

A number of Vietnamese city articles, including Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City, Huế, among others, feature substantial image gallery sections. I have serious doubts about whether some of these galleries actually add encyclopedic value to the articles. WP:Galleries says:

"the use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Misplaced Pages articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject ... Misplaced Pages is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons."

Some articles seem to be better off than others. I know Ho Chi Minh City used to have major issues with this (and the galleries on that page do seem to take up an unusual amount of space). Huế seems to me to be a perfect example of excessive, indiscriminate use of images in a gallery (and that article's not as bad as the native Vietnamese version). How should we apply policy in this case? What sort of gallery use could be considered as adding "encyclopedic value", without turning into an album of disconnected snapshots? Should we make it a point to delete "Gallery" sections outright and move the contents to Commons, as mentioned in the policy? Comments and discussion welcomed. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese studies

Please help to rescue this from proposed deletion. Bearian (talk) 22:20, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

RfC notification

A new discussion on wording changes to the current guideline to clarify the use of diacritics for subjects whose native names contain them has been initiated. It can be found at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC Ohconfucius 08:45, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Capitalization for province names

Is it Ca Mau Province or Ca Mau province? I think the Associated Press is the best authority on these things. They do it as "Ca Mau province." The Vietnam News Agency, the country's main news source, does it the same way.. So do Lonely Planet and Karnow's Vietnam, two of the top-selling Vietnam-related books. I should note that the Chicago Manual of Style recommends capitalizing "province". (See sections 8.50 and 8.55.) Kauffner (talk) 05:01, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Convention in wikipedia is to capitalize districts and province names. We are wikipedia not Britannica or Lonely Planet. Please move all pages to capital Province and clean up the links in the articles and templates.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Any other requests while you are handing out assignments? I'll hurry right up and put them on my "to do" list. Kauffner (talk) 21:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Kauffner, your behavior towards Dr. Blofeld is unacceptable. As Dr. Blofeld said, this is Misplaced Pages and not Britannica or Lonely Planet. This convention is used everywhere for South East Asian and East Asian articles. NVanMinh (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I tried to capitalize the titles for the provinces, but IIO blocked the moves. Kauffner (talk) 03:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. NVanMinh (talk) 05:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Sadly your request was turned down, don't understand why. I repeated your request. NVanMinh (talk) 07:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I can't read IPA myself, so I think its pretty useless compared to sound files. User:YellowMonkey left behind 170 ogg files for Vietnamese pronunciation and I have been adding them to the appropriate articles. Kauffner (talk) 11:48, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Open page move discussions

• (Discuss) – District 5, Ho Chi Minh City → District 5
• (Discuss) –Trieu Thi Trinh → Lady Trieu Kauffner (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Carrying pole

I think it's called a "don ganh" in Vietnamese. I'm wondering how to find it at http://vi.wikipedia.org. Could someone please help? Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This article is not available in vi.wiki, You can look up it with "Đòn gánh" in Vietnamese. --Tranletuhan (talk) 04:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese zodiac

If anyone knows any reliable sources for this, it would be very useful. I mean, academic studies on Vietnamese traditional culture, could be in Vietnamese. University textbooks of Vietnamese history perhaps. Also, I propose that articles on individual signs are merged into Vietnamese zodiac. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Template:Vietnam map

{{Vietnam map}} has been nominated for deletion. The concern with Template:Vietnam map (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is that it is cluttered, and the legend is in Vietnamese instead of English. If you wish to keep this, you may want to fix it. 76.65.128.198 (talk) 06:06, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese pronounciation files

FYI, several Vietnamese pronounciation files have been nominated for deletion, see WP: Files for deletion/2011 December 26 -- 76.65.128.132 (talk) 05:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Vietnam will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Vietnam's history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Misplaced Pages (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 21:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

V-League naming controversy

Hi—just a note to all members to please see Talk:V-League (Vietnam) for discussion about the ongoing controversy about the naming of the V-League/Super League/whatever. The page has seen a rash of unilateral page moves since the end of the last season, and the current situation is ambiguous enough that we're likely to see more of the same for a while. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 16:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Traslation request: A Weaver on the Horizon to Thiên nhai chức nữ

Hi, can anyone translate the plot summmary of A Weaver on the Horizon to Thiên nhai chức nữ as well as updating it? Thanks.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 22:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Translation request:Scarlet Heart to Bộ bộ kinh tâm

Hi, can anyone translate the plot summary of Scarlet Heart to Bộ bộ kinh tâm and well as updating it? Thanks.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Removing Vietnamese diacritics

There is a large-scale ongoing action to remove Vietnamese diacritics from articles' titles. The given reason is that these are rare in published English and reference is made to this, by my understanding quite far from the consensus move request. I would kindly ask what is the WP:VIETNAM's position regarding these moves and if there are any relevant guidelines about using Vietnamese diacritics in Misplaced Pages. Beagel (talk) 06:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Your best bet is Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Vietnamese), which I believe grew out of a fairly lengthy debate about article naming conventions that encompassed the use of diacritics in article titles. There wasn't so much a consensus position stated in that debate as there were certain points agreed on, and the written policy was developed over time based on that discussion. The main gist of the discussion revolved around the idea of defining "common use", since most people were for the idea of using anglicized names if these are in common use in anglophone literature, and using diacritics otherwise. I suspect Kauffner may have more to say about it than me, since he's been more active both in developing the policy and in policing page moves since that time. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 02:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam search results (from AlexNewArtBot)

Is anyone actively using this list of search results? It was set up in 2008 and hasn't been modified since. It contains a huge number of false results, which is why I'm guessing it isn't very valuable. tedder (talk) 11:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

AlexNewArtBot used to work very well, returning only a few false positives and far fewer results in general. At some point in the past few years, though something suddenly stopped working and now we have the huge number of false results being displayed now. I don't know if or when the creator intends on fixing this, but I know I still use it, since it does allow us to find new Vietnam-related articles-- just gotta look for the articles with a higher score. I've gone in and made a few changes that might help, although I'm not really sure how it's supposed to work--any help in figuring it out would be greatly appreciated :) --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 07:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Icon Picture Change Proposal for WikiProject Vietnam

I propose that the icon representing WikiProject Vietnam, the one that displays on the each project member's page, be changed to an image depicting the national map of V-N, with a Dong Son drum design in the background. I feel that representing the group with the red flag and yellow star is not representative of every member of the project, nor entirely representative of the entire Vietnamese people and Vietnamese nation, as many, many Vietnamese are opposed to the current Communist regime ruling Viet Nam today, inside (secretly, due to fears of persecution), and outside (very publicly) of Viet Nam, and are offended of using the flag or depictions of it. Instead of using the flag, my suggestion would be the best alternative, as it is entirely representative of the Vietnamese Nation, especially our history, and would appease all Vietnamese regardless of their political views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nguyen1310 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Certainly an image that shows a little more imagination would be nice. How about a woman wearing an ao dai and a conical hat? Something like . Kauffner (talk) 02:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC) -Oh yes, that'll be a better idea!

Support Wikipe-tan in áo dài, because she's dễ thương. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 06:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

There being no objection, I went ahead and changed the icon. Kauffner (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Just as an aside, I don't actually use the default userbox; I use my own copy with the red-with-yellow-star flag, since I didn't like the formatting of the existing userbox. I'll probably keep on using it, and I'd encourage anyone who wants to create their own personal userbox (with various different flags, etc) to do so. Mine can be found at User:Dragfyre/UBX/WPVietnam. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 09:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Add photo from Viet-language article of Admiral Hoang Co Minh to English version

Please add this photo from the Vietnamese-language version of this article to this English one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/vi/b/b1/Hoangcominh.jpg . I don't know how i can do this so can someone please add it? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nguyen1310 (talk • contribs) 07:58, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

• It's hosted on the Vietnamese Misplaced Pages (vi:File:Hoangcominh.jpg). If it is a free image, it can be moved to the Commons WhisperToMe (talk) 18:02, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The image page says it is PD, but it would be good for somebody to check and make sure WhisperToMe (talk) 18:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Thái Xuân, Xuan Loc

Does anyone know where I can find more sources about Thái Xuân, Xuan Loc? There's one article in the Houston Press but I would like to find more.

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 18:02, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

You can Google "Giáo xứ Thái Xuân" (Thái Xuân Parish) to find some Vietnamese-language sources mentioning it. DHN (talk) 21:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

"Thái Xuân" is the name of a Catholic church in Xuan Loc. It is not a legally recognized town or district. I know this place. Kauffner (talk) 02:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright - are there other articles about the locality that are in English? I would like to write about it. I already have a section about it at Xuan Loc. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

That section probably belongs in Roman Catholic Diocese of Xuan Loc instead of Xuan Loc. DHN (talk) 07:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

But it's not just the church. There's an entire community around it. See http://www.houstonpress.com/2005-12-15/news/tale-of-two-cities/ - It started as a hamlet in 1954 WhisperToMe (talk) 07:39, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The address of the church is "Giáo Xứ Thái Xuân, Ấp Bảo Ðịnh, xã Xuân Ðịnh, Xuân Lộc, Ðồng Nai". So there is no hamlet, village or community called "Thai Xuan" anymore. In the 1970s, all the hamlets got merged into communes (xã). It looks like Thai Xuan was merged with several other villages to created Xuan Dinh commune. I checked everywhere, but there doesn't seem to be anything in English on the Web about this place, aside from the Houston Press article. Here is a picture. Kauffner (talk) 10:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, okay. It reminds me of how Japanese municipalities have been and are being merged with each other. The old ones still have their own articles, but the new ones of course have them too. Do you think we should create an article about Xuan Dinh and then talk about the old Thai Xuan in that one? WhisperToMe (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Fine by me. There are quite a few xã articles already. Kauffner (talk) 02:44, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Cool beans! I started Xuan Dinh. I have an interest in it because it was the namesake of Thai Xuan Village in Houston, Texas. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Albert Schlicklin

Seems an important French priest in Vietnam. Does anyone have any source for date of birth? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:11, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Perth requested-move notification

An earlier requested-move survey generated lots of controversy and an arbitration case. Therefore, this one is being posted here and in many other places, to gather a very wide range of opinions outside of the Scotland and Australia WikiProjects.

A requested move survey was started at Talk:Perth_(disambiguation)#Requested_move, which proposes to move:

• Perth → Perth, Western Australia
• Perth, Scotland → Perth, Perthshire
• Perth (disambiguation) → Perth

Background: There was a previous requested-move survey which ran from late May to mid June. There was a great deal of controversy surrounding the closure and subsequent events, which involved a number of reverts and re-reverts which are the subject of an ongoing arbitration case. There was a move review process, which was closed with a finding that the original requested-move closure was endorsed; however, the move review process is relatively new and untried. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 03:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move: Decapitalize the word "war" in non-proper noun titles

Concerning the following articles: Sino-Xiongnu War, Gojoseon–Han War, Goguryeo–Wei War, Goguryeo–Sui War, Goguryeo–Tang War, Silla–Tang War, Ming–Kotte War, Ming–Hồ War, Mongol–Jin War, Gaya–Silla War, Goguryeo–Yamato War, Goryeo–Khitan War.

The move request is at .--Cold Season (talk) 02:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Open Vietnam-related RMs

• (Discuss) – Bat dau tu nay → Bắt đầu từ nay
• (Discuss) – Com tam →Cơm tấm
• (Discuss) – Ho Quy Ly →Hồ Quý Ly –

Note. This note was added (unsigned) by Kauffner, all these RMs passed. In ictu oculi (talk)

RfC on the spelling of Vietnamese names

RfC: Should the spelling of Vietnamese names follow the general usage of English-language reliable sources? Examples: Ngo Dinh Diem, Ho Chi Minh, and Saigon, or Ngô Đình Diệm, Hồ Chí Minh, and Sài Gòn. The RfC is here. Kauffner (talk) 07:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Note - this RfC was initiated following questioning of bulk undiscussed moves by User:Kauffner

1. The number of moves is around 1000 under own name, + 600 using G6 "uncontroversial moves" requests
2. messages to Kauffner to stop making these moves go back to the Talk:Cần Thơ/Archive 1 RM result. The messages (from admin Prolog, User Gimmetoo, and others?) were removed from Kauffner's talk page and ignored.
3. despite (i) the misrepresentation (scare tactic?) in the RfC wording "Sài Gòn", and (ii) selective canvassing of WP:CONSERVATISM and users known to be against use of accents in foreign names, the results from the RfC were 26 expressing support for use of full Vietnamese names in titles and text body, and only 16 in support of Kauffner's proposal.
4. Kauffner's moves additionally involved (i) IP activity archiving failed RMs, Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Kauffner/Archive and (ii) deletion of notices of failed Talk:Cần Thơ/Archive 1 RM talk page notices prior to requesting G6 uncontroversial moves from admins.
5. At this point it seems appropriate to reverse Kauffner's 1,800 undiscussed/G6 moves. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Code of conduct for the South China Sea

See this thread at ANI. GotR 15:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Most decorated soldier of Second Indochina War contradictory statements

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Jorge Otero Barreto#Most decorated. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

Creating articles of villages and township of Vietnam

I will create these articles using the data at here (there are about 10.000 villages and townships left). But I dont known clealy the rules. So I propose some cases

In general, their names should be , instead of the priority as:

1. Tân Bình, Ben Tre instead of Tan Binh, Mo Cay Bac (named follow Mo Cay Bac District)
2. Tân Bình, Bến Tre
3. Tan Binh, Bến Tre
4. Tan Binh, Ben Tre.

Some cases, there are two or more villages have the same name in a province such as:

• An Hiệp, Ba Tri District, Ben Tre province.
• An Hiệp, Chau Thanh District, Ben Tre province.

The name should be : An Hiệp, Chau Thanh District, Ben Tre or An Hiệp, Chau Thanh, Ben Tre.

A district sometime have one township and one village which have the same name. The name should be: and [name (village).

Is there any proposal? Thank in advance.--Cheers! (talk) 04:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Chào anh!

I have a related question at WT:CAPS regarding capitalisation of "xxx Province"

For me http://mic.gov.vn/uploads/20100623/E124-2009%20%2831-12%292-MSDVHCVN.xls didn't open, but that's probably due to a firewall problem. You might want to contact User:Dr. Blofeld, he is very skilled and productive at producing geography stubs, and he has (I have seen, I have not participated) had discussions with various users about WP:Notability. My personal feeling is that per WP:WORLDVIEW if there is an article in vi.wp it is legitimate to have a stub in en.wp, but it's not a view held strongly and people on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geography will be better informed.

As regards format I personally would just follow vi.wp for format and spellings for villages, en.wp will always be dependent on foreign wikis for geo stubs, if you look at Mexican place names you'll find they follow es.wp, for French places fr.wp and so on. Inventing new English formats and inventing "English" spellings for places never even mentioned in English is likely to lead to confusion and mistakes - particularly when villages have different Vietnamese names but anglicizing them makes the 2 different names the same. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:40, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Me personally I dislike lower casing for province and district names. I see somebody has moved them to lower casing for provinces. IN regards to communes and villages always go by the highest administrative order in disambiguation. If there is only one commune with that name, no dab is needed, if there is only one in one province and another in another province under the same name just the province name on the end e.g Can Thanh, Ben Tre will do. If there are several in province then xxxx, district. Same goes for villages if there are several in same district with the same name use commune on the end. Personally I prefer to use the correct native accents for the titles but others prefer them without. I think the best thing to do would be to create with diacritics and then redirect the plain english. If you are serious about creating them, let me know exactly what data you have and I will compile a mock article for you to copy to ensure it is done as efficiently as possible.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:27, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell this advice from Dr. Blofeld on all 3 points looks consistent with what en.wp does for other countries. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

You can find the data in the worksheet of Xã in the excel file mentioned in above link. I have created articles with the same method as Dr. Blofeld's in vi.wikipedia. Thank you so much.--Cheers! (talk) 01:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

There are some new artilces such as Khánh Thạnh Tân, Hưng Khánh Trung A, Hòa Lộc, Bến Tre. How are they?--Cheers! (talk) 04:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes they look good, but if you could use Hưng Khánh Trung A as it is now exactly, I've made some changes, tidier infobox, no need to put density in text, that can go in infobox and coord missing link see the change here. If you could list the communes in the template and make templates as you go through each province this would be great. Can you go through the few you created so far and replace with this texting, but you'll need to remove the coord missing for communes which you have coordinates for. If you could do that and continue and gradually fill out the commune list you created and template as you go, this method of creation would be perfect. We would be greatly appreciative of you putting an article on every commune on here in English and a superb way to start trying to cover the whole of Vietnam in English which has never been covered in this way before.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:46, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, I will use the form of for other articles and follow yor recommend.--Cheers! (talk) 06:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

South China Sea naming dispute

Since we have a Sea of Japan naming dispute article, should a companion article be created for the South China Sea naming dispute ? As it is the "South Sea" (PRC/ROC), "East Sea" (Vietnam), "West Philippine Sea" (Philippines) and "South China Sea" (internationally/HK). As the Philippines and HK are English speaking localities of the region, and Vietnam uses "East Sea" internationally in English, there seems to be enough to work from. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 03:15, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a bad idea to expand on this topic, since the issue has been gaining more coverage lately. A quick search comes up with a number of potential news sources to pull from. I'm wondering whether a new article needs to be created, however, or the existing articles rearranged. To wit, South China Sea dispute already exists, which redirects to Territorial disputes in the South China Sea, which refers to disputes over the individual islands. If we created South China Sea naming dispute, to which article would South China Sea dispute redirect to? Wouldn't it be better to move the "Territorial disputes" article to South China Sea dispute, and simply add a section to that article about the naming dispute? After all, the naming issue is just another side of the same conflict over who gets to rip the oil out from under which islands (or which part of the sea floor, as the case may be). --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 13:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Vovinam and Vo Lam

Hi—User:Mdtemp has PRODed Vovinam and Volam Vietnam due to non-notability; anyone who can help add secondary sources on either of these and/or expand either one to assert notability might want to do so soon. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 13:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Just removing the PROD and forcing it to AfD might give people more time to contribute... Some pages deserve to be userfied until proper referencing is included. Monni (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Translation?

Hello, I realize this request doesn't strictly belong here but I couldn't think where else to ask. I have a story of roughly 1000 words in Vietnamese which I would like to get translated into English. Is there anyone on this project who would be interested in doing this work – for payment, of course? If so, please leave a note on my talk page. Many thanks, --Viennese Waltz 09:43, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Hán tự?

Hán tự is a Vietnamese word that translates directly as "Chinese character." I don't see any RS using it the way we do in the articles. I think it is superfluous. A reader who can't tell it's a Chinese character by looking at it won't know what a Hán tự is either. The article on Tokyo opens "Tokyo (東京, Tōkyō, "Eastern Capital")." The writing system is not labeled as "kanji" or anything else. Kauffner (talk) 14:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Quote: The article on Tokyo opens "Tokyo (東京, Tōkyō, "Eastern Capital")"; the writing system is not labeled as "kanji" or anything else. Not all the Japan-related articles are like that, see Spirited Away for an exception.
• The historical information in the Misplaced Pages article Han tu would probably be quite interesting to some people. So why not consider it as optional to add Hán tự to articles, but Wikilink existing instances (rather than removing them)? Maybe some Vietnamese prefer to use Hán tự to identify such characters as "foreign"—they are considered to be Japanese rather than Chinese characters in Japan ;-).
• The mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, and Japanese versions of "Chinese characters" are different, but—apart from a couple of brief articles like this—I haven't yet seen Misplaced Pages articles describing this. It would certainly be interesting to some people to have a link to an article about this. Likewise most Korean place names were originally Chinese pictograms (it is easy to understand the meaning/origin of them, if you can read such characters) whereas the phonetic symbols of Korean or Vietnamese (used to replace the Chinese) are not. The Chinese place names highlight the big changes that have occurred over the past 100-150 years. Roppongi (literally "six trees") is a night club district with no big trees, Hibarigaoka (literally "skylark hill") probably does not have any skylarks now, and there are areas with names like Hotaruda (Hotaru is "firefly", so "firefly field"), and so on. LittleBen (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure the comparison with kanji given above is entirely correct, since kanji are used as an integral part of the Japanese language, and hán tự and chữ nôm are no longer used in Vietnam except in limited academic circles. As I understand it, that's the main argument against the use of hán tự in article leads: they're simply not used in modern-day Vietnam, and indiscriminate use in the leads of Vietnam-related articles would be akin to giving them undue weight—making the use of hán tự itself seem more important than it actually is. That's not to say that the characters aren't useful in understanding historical origins or that they weren't important in the naming of people, places and things; it's just that they are largely not relevant to a modern audience, except as an etymological vestige, and their prominent use could lead to confusion for those people who aren't even aware of their existence and would confuse them with regular Chinese characters. That said, articles related to historical figures, places or events, especially ones dating back to the period when the characters were widely used (i.e. pre-independence) could stand to make reference to them in an "Etymology" section. This is done in some articles already, including Ho Chi Minh City for example. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:14, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• My original point was about word Hán tự, which as near as I can tell is a Misplaced Pages neologism. But the responses focus instead on the practice of putting Chinese characters in the articles. On this issue, I note that many of our readers still use XP. On XP, these characters render as squares. This looks unprofessional, especially when they appear in the opening or the infobox. Although readers are not likely to find the characters themselves meaningful, Wikitionary may contain relevant information which can be accessed by clicking on the character if {{linktext}} is used. Vietnamese today know Chinese characters only to the extent that they have learned Chinese as a foreign language. Even large and comprehensive Vietnamese dictionaries do not usually contain Chinese characters. So in contrast to Japan and Korea, they are not part of the modern language at all. For Korean, the MOS:KO recommends giving Chinese only in a language box. Having it only in an etymology section or paragraph would be even better. Kauffner (talk) 09:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought the consensus was not to use the Chinese names at all, except in historical articles, e.g. articles on emperors. Chinese characters were how emperors' names were correctly written at the time. If you want to change Han tu in those articles to Chinese script, or whatever is the title of our main article on Chinese script, that would be marginally less informative because readers wouldn't go straight to the info about how characters were used in Vietnamese. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:55, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• Quote: "the practice of putting Chinese characters in the articles. On this issue, I note that many of our readers still use XP. On XP, these characters render as squares."
• Chinese characters in English Misplaced Pages should be embedded in a language template such as Template:CJKV, which should ensure that they display correctly on Windows XP. If that doesn't fix the problem, put a note on the Talk Page of TheDJ, a talented Dutch programmer who seems to be the most capable and knowledgeable person on Misplaced Pages as regards fixing broken language templates. As a guide to what can be done, the Japanese Template:Nihongo displays a little question-mark-superscript; hovering the mouse over it displays a tool tip linked to an explanation of how to install Japanese fonts. However, my understanding is that this was for users of Windows 98 or Windows 2000, and users of Windows XP and later should have Unicode fonts already installed. Essentially the same should apply for Chinese and Vietnamese. LittleBen (talk) 11:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the use of the word "Hán tự", I'm afraid I'm one of those people who know very little about the subject already. From what I gather, hán tự and chữ nôm are complimentary, one referring to Chinese or Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary written in Chinese characters, and the other referring to Vietnamese vocabulary written in Chinese characters. I guess it depends on why an author would want to include those characters in the first place, and whether those characters represent Chinese loanwords or native Vietnamese words. If they're deemed notable enough for a character gloss, then I don't see why we shouldn't include the term to indicate what kind of characters they are; it should at least be linked, so that the majority of people who are ignorant about the different kinds of characters can read about them. In such cases, of course, we should also get the term right (hán tự vs. chữ nôm). --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 14:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• Let me try this again. What does hán tự mean? It is defined as, "n. Chinese characters, Chinese script," or as dt. Chữ Hán, chữ Trung Quốc nói chung/"noun. Chinese characters, Chinese characters in general". As you can see from vi:Chữ Hán, it covers Nom, Classical Chinese, Modern Chinese, kanji, and hanja. Yet from reading Wiki articles, you would think that this word refers to Sino-Vietnamese characters. I do not propose an alternative label. I prefer unlabel script, as I explain in the first post in this section. Kauffner (talk) 17:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

OK—maybe if we took a real-live example of a Vietnam-related article, it'd help me understand. Take say, Minh Mang—do the character glosses given in that article's lead illustrate what you mean? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 18:01, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

See Trinh Kiem: "Trịnh Kiểm(Hán tự: 鄭檢, 1503–1570)"; Mac Thai Tong: "Mạc Thái Tông (Hán tự: 莫太宗) (?-1540)"; Temple of Literature, Hanoi: "The Temple of Literature (Template:Lang-vi, Hán tự: 文廟)"; Ly Dao Thanh: "Lý Đạo Thành (Hán tự: 李道成)". My point is that the script labeling is superfluous. Kauffner (talk) 18:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hangzhou is an example of an editor being kind to the reader who wants to learn more. (Note that the "Chinese" in the lede is a clickable link.) Shanghai, on the other hand, is the opposite—not even the Chinese characters are shown. This is English Misplaced Pages; it's not compulsory to add Chinese, the pinyin version with or without diacritics (note that Taiwan is different), or a sound clip, but some people would appreciate it. Also, as you know, so-called "Chinese characters" are different in writing style and pronunciation in China, ROC, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. Some people would be interested in learning about this, and learning about the history of the (characters in the) language. It would be interesting and useful to some people for the 東京 you cite to be labeled as kanji (not "Chinese", because the reading and shape can be different). Likewise, it would be interesting and maybe useful to some if the アニメ in Anime were labeled as Katakana. LittleBen (talk) 23:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment (Ignoring all comment related to Japanese) - The labels chữ Hán and (much less common) Hán tự (if it really is primarily Chinese) are helpful. They indicate to readers that what is being shown is chữ Hán and sometimes distinct from Chinese Hán tự. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment (Ignoring all comments related to European languages. Vietnamese is not a European language, and it is not English either). LittleBen (talk) 03:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Editors in this project aren't concerned with Race (human classification), nor indeed geographical location or linguistic descent (if being generous that's the issue here). You, as per previous comments on WP:VN articles, and reminded by your gratuitous "Dracula" comment about a Romanian place name article a few edits ago, sound like exactly what you sound like. If you can get over your issues about "European" and "Asian", then you might have something relevant to say about why Romanian Latin alphabet and Vietnamese Latin alphabet should be treated differently. Until then any further comparisons you want to make between Japanese and Vietnamese you can keep to yourself, and any further comments on Romanian alphabet and Dracula, take them to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Romania and share your feelings on Romanian diacritics there. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Nowadays, Vietnamese generally refer to Chinese characters as chữ Hán. Hán tự is an old fashioned Sino-Vietnamese usage — and apparently self-perpetuating Wiki jargon. Compare here and here. There is no difference in meaning. A Sinicized form in Vietnamese is a fancier way to say it, like a Latinism in English (ascend vs. rise). Kauffner (talk) 09:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• The Vietnamese Misplaced Pages redirects from Hán tự to chữ Hán, whereas the English Misplaced Pages does the reverse. Why not fix English Misplaced Pages, then? LittleBen (talk) 11:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• It could be hard to change, there are several language/linguistics editors who are territorial about naming of 'their' articles, to the extent that it doesn't matter what English-using people who use the language think, only what the English scholarly journals by non-practitioners think. And WP:UCN gets ignored, because it isn't scholarly. It's caused major problems between ethnic wikiprojects and the linguistics wikiprojects before. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 05:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• It might be a good idea to explain this in the Vietnamese language article. LittleBen (talk) 09:08, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Language help needed at an AfD

Can anyone help evaluate the Vietnamese language sources at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nhat Nam (martial art)? Voceditenore (talk) 15:55, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

2012 Vietnamese American infobox representatives open nomination period

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Vietnamese American infobox representative nominees. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

Language support templates

Would be a good idea if someone were to tag Vietnamese language support templates with Category:Multilingual support templates. LittleBen (talk) 13:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Citations Using Vietnamese Personal Names

I was wondering if there is a template in place of {cite} that allows me to use Vietnamese naming order. I don't like citations that necessitate a comma after the last name, as it confuses whether the two pronouns that follow go in first-middle name order or middle-first name order. yellowtailshark (talk) 00:32, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• You could ask on the talk page of Template:Cite. User:Redrose64 on that talk page is quite helpful, and User:TheDJ is another person who is knowledgeable and helpful for customized templates. LittleBen (talk) 02:19, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I ended up just using the author-name-separator parameter to omit the comma, and used the middle-and-first name in the "first" first name parameter. It's probably not a major issue at the moment to have a separate middle name field for citations. *knock on wood* yellowtailshark (talk) 02:29, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Vietnamese movie posters

Several Vietnamese movie posters have been nominated for deletion, see Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree files/2012 November 15 -- 70.24.250.26 (talk) 07:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

2012 Asian American representative approval period (Now until 18 December)

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Representative approval. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

• NA-Class Vietnam pages
• NA-importance Vietnam pages
• All WikiProject Vietnam pages