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POV

Is this page a joke? It is ridden with so many self-evident controversies! First, it claims inconclusive result of the operation, while it describes a clear Polish failure. The Polish objective was to conquer Kiev, which failed and turned into a Polish retreat. Note that this is not about the result of the war, which was, indeed, inconclusive. Second, the article correctly states that the majority of Ukrainians viewed this operation as another Polish invasion and were opposed to the Poles and their collaborators. At that time there were multiple warring fractions, each claiming to represent the Ukrainian people. However, throughout the article the invading force is always called Polish and Ukrainian, as if Poles had a strong Ukrainian support. “Poles and their collaborators” may be a more appropriate expression. Third, the page dedicated to the entire war clearly and, apparently, accurately states that the Poles were driven by a desire to establish a Polish-dominated mega-state in Europe, while this page pretends that the Polish motives were to give independence to Ukraine. Etc., etc, etc…

A page like this may be suitable to boost patriotism in Polish elementary schools, but not to serve as a reference in an international encyclopedia. (forgot to sign, but seems to me as written by User:EugeneK. --Irpen)

It is not a joke. It was written mainly by Poles from what they know. If you can fix something, please do this. See wikipedia's rule: be bold. mikka (t) 19:16, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The article needs attention indeed. I just quickly opened a "Russo-Polish War" in today's EB. The very first phrase in EB is "...military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine" while our article article is saying smth about "stated goal" and just mentioning that there is also some "Ukrainian view". Also, this one said: "Polish... allied with Ukrainians". Britannica for some reason dares to say: "Józef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura (April 21, 1920) and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7". I will leave this with a POV tag for now. Once I do some research, I will try to correct more, but I would be happy of someone does this, which would save me time for other article. Please no flames. --Irpen 21:45, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Irpen, if you think this is POV, what do you think about the whole page on the Polish-Bolshevik War?--EugeneK 04:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

That article is written in good faith. It is not fully objective but only because RU/UA/BE editors didn't care enough to participate in it. I hope this is changing now. --Irpen 06:25, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Besides Polish-Ukrainian War is just crying for attention from Ukrainian and Russian editors. Same as above, I am not accusing its writers in POV pushing. It simply present a side, most emphasized when history is tought it Poland. We just need more editors, that's all? --Irpen 06:38, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

As Mikkalai noted, this could use input from the Ukrainian side (please try to cite sources though). I guess Międzymorze does fit the description of 'a Polish-dominated mega-state', however I do think it would have been better then what happened in OTL. And Piłsudski did formed an alliance with Peltura - were there AT THAT TIME any other Ukrainian factions still controling any part of the country? IIRC, Peltura defeated them all except the communist backed one, so I'd consider him the legitimate Ukrainian government of this (short) time. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Piotr, The only faction defeated by Petlyura (in a coup) was the pro-German Ukrainian government of Skoropadsky, who, in turn, came to power after overthrowing the first formally independent (although pro-socialist) Ukrainian government installed shortly after the Russian revolution. At the time when Petlyura was recruited by the Poles, he was already a beaten-up refugee in Poland, while other Ukrainian factions (e.g. Mahno) were still active, while the Ukrainian Bolshevik government claimed to represent the majority of Ukrainians. Remember that Petlyura was never an elected president and had neither legitimacy nor public support, while the pro-Bolshevik faction could theoretically claim the legacy of the first independent government/parliament (which was elected in a manner of “Soviets” elsewhere) and the support of a sizeable fraction of the population. --EugeneK 04:23, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the update. I guess in that case he can hardly be considered a 'hero'. I wonder how would've the government of Ukrainian looked like if there was no outside interference? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:30, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I read an answer of a responder to survey in UA about Petlyura. Few responders answered positively but the most revealing was the answer that Petlyura is a "Ukrainian Stalin, but unsuccesful". I neither support nor reject this POV and presented it here just FYI. --Irpen 21:15, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I rewrote the lead but I can't quickly address an entire article which I would like to do eventually. However, its current shape is obviously not neutral. Just check this quote currently there:

It was a bitter day for the Poles and Ukrainians on June 13 when Kiev was evacuated and left to the Soviets. Petliura's Ukrainians, although few in numbers, fought bravely and with fierce determination throughout the rest of the campaign.

I hope I don't need to elaborate what's wrong with this. Besides, it is a copyvio as per this.

I call on everyone interested to read recent discussion at Talk:Polish-Soviet War. It is longish but productive as the article is undergoing changes with mutual agreement of editors from several backgrounds. One repetition from there I would like to do is to quote the observation Tadeusz Machalski, a participant of Gen. Rydz-Smygly's "victorious parade of liberators" in Kiev on May 7, 1920. This observant saw this as a huge political mistake: "Ukrainian people who saw in their capital an allien general with a Polish army... didn't see that as a liberation but as a new variety of occupation...". It goes on...

Anyway, if the editors already on board can see my point and start addressing these issues, I would be happy to help. While at it, please check the Battle of Volodarka. Please no flames. --Irpen 06:38, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

As to the result of the battle - it was indeed unconcluded. The main objective of the Polish side was not to take the city of Kiev, but to surround and destroy as many of the Bolshevik units as possible, which would seriously disrupt Bolshevik preparations for an offensive in the north. However, the plan failed, mostly because the Soviets declined to fulfil the orders from above and did not fight a major battle which, with all probability, they could not win. Similarily, the Soviet counter-offensive was not aimed at recapturing the city itself, but at outflanking and destruction of the entire Polish army stationed there. However, due to evident insubordination of Budionnyi and his disregard for orders from Moscow, the Russian forces first focused on capturing the towns and supply dumps rather than capturing the withdrawing Poles in a huge pocket. Because of that, Rydz-Śmigły managed to withdraw his forces from Ukraine with little losses, even though he started the withdrawal several days too late. So, all in all, neither the Poles nor the Russians achieved the main strategic goal of the offensive in Ukraine.

Capturing the city of Kiev was only a political goal, which was surely achieved, but did not change the situation much as the Ukrainians were less than willing to construct their own state under Petlura's rule. However, the military significance of the town was close to none - and it was apparent both to Poles and to Russians at the time. Halibutt 17:29, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, please carefully reread a recent discussion at talk:Polish-Soviet War suggested above and kindly reconsider your reverts and responces here and at Wolodarka (if W is really important, so be it). Besides, think about it dispassionately. According to almost every single battle article in WP an entire war consisted of Polish victories (some even decisive), with a couple of battles "unconcluded", and in the end we had a questionable "Minor Polish victory" of the war itself, as several editors, including Piotrus and Wojsyl agreed. I think you view this whole string of articles from a wrong angle. Again, please read the discussion at Talk:Polish-Soviet War and think it over. I will not revert for now because I really don't want to annoy you unnecessarily. I hope you will do something yourself. --Irpen 17:53, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Well, my problem is that I don't see how this operation might be seen as a Polish military defeat. It was a political failure of Piłsudski's plans, but not a military defeat of the Polish army. Similarily, it was neither a defeat nor a victory for the Bolsheviks, who did not win anything by recapturing the areas lost in the spring. Shortly after the Poles withdrew (almost untouched!), they got bogged down in the south with the forces they were trying to destroy - yet failed. Halibutt 23:41, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't want to argue another circle here. Somehow, other editors, including some of your compatriots see it differently (see this article's history and other discussions). I hoped I could convince you to undo your revert, but since I failed I will proceed for now by changing the outcome myself. I suggest you wait for what others say about it, but I cannot prevent you from reverting at once, of course. OTOH, you may try to address some severe problems with an article below. I am not trying to make you do my job. It just makes more sense if you start this, since the article was mostly written by you and it is easier for you to remember what and how you wrote. Similar problems need to be addressed at Wolodarka's article which I am not touching for now. --Irpen 23:51, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

As to specific concerns raised by an anon (?):

1. Is this page a joke? - I doubt it. I tried the best to describe what actually happened.
2. It is ridden with so many self-evident controversies - please be so kind as to name them then.
3. it claims inconclusive result of the operation - see above
4. The Polish objective was to conquer Kiev, which failed and turned into a Polish retreat - wrong, see above
5. Second, the article correctly states that the majority of Ukrainians viewed this operation as another Polish invasion and were opposed to the Poles and their collaborators - I would have to see a source to such a remark. Were there any polls?
6. throughout the article the invading force is always called Polish and Ukrainian, as if Poles had a strong Ukrainian support - the divisions present in Ukraine at the moment were indeed Polish and Ukrainian - and that's what the statement suggests. Whether Petlura had a significant or insignificant support seems quite irrelevant here, just like the support for the Bolsheviks. The fact is that it was a joint Polish-Ukrainian operation. And the two states, regardless of their actual strength, were allied.
7. “Poles and their collaborators” may be a more appropriate expression - don't you think it would be far too POV?
8. this page pretends that the Polish motives were to give independence to Ukraine. - see above.

Halibutt 23:54, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to sign in and this was corrected later by Irpen.

See the first paragraph in this thread. As you know, the page used to start with “The Kiev Offensive (or Kiev Operation) was an important military operation, carried out by Polish Army and allied Ukrainian forces during the Polish-Bolshevik War, from April 1920 to June same year. Its goal was to create independent Ukraine.” This goal is contradicting the goals mentioned in the PSW page. Also, in the battlebox Ukraine was mentioned as a combatant on Polish side. This could only refer to the puppet government of Petlura. By the same token you should have mentioned the pro-Bolshevik Ukrainian government, as another “Ukraine” on the Bolshevik side. This misrepresents the authority of Petlura, who, as the article now carefully states, experienced “mixed” attitudes of his alleged subjects. At the time of war he represented a non-existent state and he was briefly a self-proclaimed leader prior to his exile. As I have mentioned above, his claims to legally represent Ukraine are questionable, to state the least, and have to be weighed against those of other parties, while the article and your comments apparently appoint him as the sole and rightful Ukrainian leader.

The noble goal of killing as many Bolsheviks as possible and run, perhaps existed, but the article gives no sources to support it and, instead, it used to provide the goal of installing Peltlura in Ukraine, which failed. This goal was, indeed stated by the Polish government and the results of the operation should be checked against this, and not some imaginary goal. The claim that Poles and their allies had no intentions to capture and retain Kiev is rather peculiar and paints a picture of a sleep-walking army that unintentionally enters cities. Will someone change the title from “Kiev (!) Offensive” to “A Brief Bolshevik-hunting excursion”? Now we need to get some Russian-Soviet patriot here to claim that the goal of the Soviet invasion of Poland was to kill many Poles (according to PSW article, Poles indeed suffered heavier losses) and run, because Bolsheviks didn’t really want Warsaw or any other towns that they have taken.

While the claims of a minor, or even a complete Polish victory in the PSW may still be viewed as good-faith considerations, the claims that the Kiev operation did not result in Polish defeat are too obviously biased. Which is strange, because the author is so objective that calling the people (regardless of their ethnicity) who collaborated with Poles "Polish collaborators" is viewed by him as a strong POV.

I also admire Irpen’s optimism that this page may ever recover from its POV status (not in terms of the actual label, which someone will eventually delete, but in terms of the actual content). Seeing “minor Polish victory” in the battlebox two days from now would not be shocking at all. And the alleged copyvio doesn’t help either. Pardon me, if my frustration is too obvious.--EugeneK 05:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Eugene, I'll try to reply in points so that it is easier to follow the discussion and reply to specific concerns rather than to whole comment.

1 This goal is contradicting the goals mentioned in the PSW page - I already mentioned here and here, we should distinguish between the military and political aims. The earlier were achieved by neither the Poles nor the Russians, as both armies failed to beat the opponent or force him to fight a major battle. On the other hand, the political aims of Piłsudski (but not the polish army or the Polish government; Międzymorze was Piłsudski's personal dream) were not achieved and with the loss of Kiev (or rather with the slow support for Petlura among the general population) his dream of an independent Ukraine ended.

2 Also, in the battlebox Ukraine was mentioned as a combatant on Polish side. This could only refer to the puppet government of Petlura. By the same token you should have mentioned the pro-Bolshevik Ukrainian government, as another “Ukraine” on the Bolshevik side - are you arguing that the Soviet Ukraine was independent from the Soviet Russia? Strange... As to the Petlura's Ukrainians being puppets of Poland - I'm still waiting for you to prove that. Unless you provide some evident sources we'll have to stick with facts, which are that Poland recognized Petlura's Ukraine as a sovereign state, did not interfere in its internal relations and was even binded by an alliance with that state.

An independent government is the one that does not depend on another government for its existence and function (sorry, if it sounds self-evident to most people). Vichy France is a well-known example of a non-independent government. Similarly, Petlyura’s government was re-installed in Kiev by Poles (as I have mentioned elsewhere, it was never elected in the first place) and existed there for as long as Poles were there to support it. As for the “bound by an alliance” argument, Poles knew what this “alliance” was worth and ignored it in Riga. By the way, if you believe Soviet Encyclopedia, independence of Petlyura’s government may be questioned even before his initial defeat, as in early 1919 his government has accepted French protectorate (which was too late to stop the Soviets). It is also customary (albeit not absolutely necessary) for a truly independent country to have its own independent military. You have mentioned on another page “a regiment-sized 6th Ukrainian Infantry Division of the 2nd Polish Army under General Antoni Listowski”; that is, an allegedly small Ukrainian (although Polish diaspora was forced to join this, rather then the bona fide Polish units) force which, as you stated, was under Polish command. This is non conclusive, but suggestive of Petlyura’s dependence. As for the Soviet Ukraine, it originated in December of 1917 and maintained political ties with its main benefactor, Soviet Russia, and other nominally (one may argue that “nominally” is a POV) independent Soviet states. At its early days it was as dependent on (or independent of) Soviet Russia as Petlyura’s second government was dependent on Poles, except that it later became a founding member of the UN and survived (with a name change) the dissolution of the USSR. Since Ukraine is now out of the battlebox, the argument is somewhat pointless. --EugeneK 15:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

In my view an idependent government is one that is capable of having its independent foreing policy. --Wojsyl 21:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

3 This misrepresents the authority of Petlura, who, as the article now carefully states, experienced “mixed” attitudes of his alleged subjects - no, it only mentions that there were two states waging a war against the Bolsheviks. Of course, if you feel that the article should mention the failed conscription or the internal situation of Ukraine after several years of constant war then so be it, but still, not mentioning Ukraine in the battlebox would be a huge POV (unless you can prove otherwise).

see above.--EugeneK 15:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

4 At the time of war he represented a non-existent state and he was briefly a self-proclaimed leader prior to his exile. As I have mentioned above, his claims to legally represent Ukraine are questionable, to state the least, and have to be weighed against those of other parties, while the article and your comments apparently appoint him as the sole and rightful Ukrainian leader. - nothing of that is present in the article. On the other hand, by the time the Bolsheviks entered Kiev for the first time, the Petlura's faction was about the only descendant of all the states that were once based in Kiev - and was seen as such at least by Poland, France and Romania. Note that at the time the only other Ukrainian factions there were the Western Ukrainians (already beaten by the Poles and Denikin), who did not claim sovereignity over all of Ukraine and indeed failed to come into terms with the governments in Kiev, and the Russian-supported Reds. So, all in all, Petlura was seen as a legitimate leader at least by those who signed the alliances with him. And his administration and army, badly scattered but still existent, remained loyal to him and to his rule (even after both Poles and Ukrainians were pushed back, the Ukrainians fought bravely alongside the Poles until the very end of the war. Marko Bezruchko is one of my personal heroes of that war. Anyway, if his claim to the Ukrainian government was opposed by someone, then it might be mentioned in the article on Ukrainian history or on Petlura himself, but such discussions should IMHO be kept outside of the battlebox. Also, if the Ukrainian divisions of the Ukrainian army deserve no mention in the battlebox, then should we call them Polish?

see above. --EugeneK 15:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

5 The noble goal of killing as many Bolsheviks as possible and run, perhaps existed, but the article gives no sources to support it and, instead, it used to provide the goal of installing Peltlura in Ukraine, which failed. This goal was, indeed stated by the Polish government and the results of the operation should be checked against this, and not some imaginary goal. - any sources for that? The military convention mentioned no such thing while the Polish orders I mentioned (and linked above) state exactly the military aims of the Ukrainian operation. Also, take note (which I already mentioned somewhere) that the initial part of the operation did not assume capturing Kiev at all!

See Wojsyl’s comments in the goals section. No one claims that the official Polish goal was to include Eastern Ukraine in the Polish national state. None of your linked arguments indicates that Polish military goal was not to eventually establish and maintain military presence in Eastern Ukraine, at least throughout the war, and not to eventually push the Soviets permanently out of the area. If you have sources, please share and quote. Not maraudering on the occupied territory is a standard official policy for any civilized occupying army. Waving or not waving flags have nothing to do with the goals of the campaign, not to mention that the memoirs of Polish combatants (like the one that serves as your bias for the flag claim) are known to occasionally resurrect ghosts (remember Kuzma Kruchkov?). Apparently, there is no doubt that Polish political and military goals were not met. As for the Bolsheviks’ ones, it appears that an army forced to retreat may have two goals: 1) to stop the retreat and to recapture the lost territory (does anyone have non-Polish sources which indicate that at the beginning of the Kiev operation Soviets have bigger ambitions on that specific front?), and 2) to punish the intruder with heavy casualties, etc. At the level of the specific campaign, the success of the second goal is questionable. The success of the first goal is unquestionable. Since we seemingly agree that only one of the parties met one of the alleged goals (you do agree that Poles were repulsed at the end of the operation), how about “partial Soviet victory” in the battlebox?

Has anyone got hold of Nowik's book on Soviet codes broken in 1919-1920 ? Also I remember that about 10 years ago there were secret plans of Soviet invasion of Poland would in archives in Moscow. I don't have any sources at hand, however. I believe that Nowik in his book uses the documents he found in Polish archives to prove that Piłsudski knew of Soviet plans and therefore decided to attack first. From this viewpoint the Kiev campaign may have saved Poland as it did not allow Soviets to complete the preparations for the invasion. Then it could be seen as Piłsudski's success. --Wojsyl 21:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

6 The claim that Poles and their allies had no intentions to capture and retain Kiev is rather peculiar and paints a picture of a sleep-walking army that unintentionally enters cities. - yet this is what actually happened. Just check the Polish orders of the epoch and you'll be seriously surprised... At the start of that operation Piłsudski prepared no long-time plan for the war with Russia. The main aims of the operation were to probe the Bolsheviks in the southern front, capture the main railroad hubs behind their backs and surround one of the two armies present in the area. Only then Piłsudski wanted to see what happens if he drove a little further since there was such a possibility. Do you really believe that if it wasn't for an unexpected breakthrough and Bolshevik withdrawal, the Poles would capture Kiev with... some 200 men travelling by a tram?

It is not uncommon for am army to conquer a city without a fight and do it faster than it has expected This does not mean that the army would never fight to capture this city (unless there are explicit statements that support such a claim).

7 Now we need to get some Russian-Soviet patriot here to claim that the goal of the Soviet invasion of Poland was to kill many Poles (according to PSW article, Poles indeed suffered heavier losses) and run, because Bolsheviks didn’t really want Warsaw or any other towns that they have taken. - I don't really get your humour, the Bolshevik invasion was aimed at capturing Poland, which is pretty obvious. However, specific operations at various points in time had different objectives. For instance, the Russian counter-attack of late May and early June was not aimed at re-taking Kiev but at destruction of the Polish armies amassed there, which would've helped the Reds to break the Polish defence in the north, in Belarus, where the major breakthrough was expected by both sides. In short, on May 26th, 1920, Budionnyi's forces started an assault not aimed at Warsaw or Poznań but on Zhmerynka, Khvastiv, Korosten or Vasilkov. That's how wars are waged.

8 While the claims of a minor, or even a complete Polish victory in the PSW may still be viewed as good-faith considerations - I replied to that on Talk:Polish-Soviet War.

I called these “good-faith considerations”, which means that someone may consider this in good faith, that is, an honest person may consider the facts and honestly support these claims. This is nothing but a compliment to people like Piotr and Wojsyl who presented the Polish arguments for the discussion. For God’s sake, what are you arguing with now?--EugeneK 15:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

9 claims that the Kiev operation did not result in Polish defeat are too obviously biased - so prove me wrong. You claim you know the Polish aims eventhough you haven't quoted a single source. On the other hand, the sources I provided prove that the aims of the operation were different from what you state.

I referred to the statement apparently made by Poles in Misplaced Pages. As for your sources, you haven’t yet quoted a single one that supports your claims and indicates that Polish goals were anything other than what Wojsyl listed in the “Goals” thread. (With an understanding that “liberation” is a POV) --EugeneK 15:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

10 the author is so objective that calling the people (regardless of their ethnicity) who collaborated with Poles "Polish collaborators" is viewed by him as a strong POV - perhaps I overreacted a bit, since in most Slavic languages the word collaborator is strongly shaded by WWII collaboration and is not neutral. However, why not call them Polish allies instead?

I don't mind--EugeneK 15:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Cheers. Halibutt 18:37, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

2. An exiled government is still a government. While the legitimacy of its sovereignity over certain territory might be disputed, in this very case the discussion on Petlura's legitimacy is purely academic, as his claims to Kiev were more or less the only claims that were there at the time. The other parties were the Whites and the Reds (who, according to international law, lost the rights to that area in the treaty of Brest). Anyway, his government was at least seen as legitimate by Poles, French and the Germans. As to the military - after almost two years of constant fights with the Whites, the Reds and the Greens, the forces of Petlura were seriously limited (7 understrength en cadre divisions at most, if memory serves me right), but still formed a significant and independent force. For the operation they were placed under Polish strategical command, but this is nothing strange in military operations of such a scale. Nobody is arguing that the UK is not independent just because French or Americans were the commanders of fronts in which British units fought in WWI or WWII. Similarily, the general command over the entire front was in Polish hands, but the units were subject to Ukrainian government, Ukrainian law and Ukrainian commanders. Also, most of the units (all but the abovementioned 6th division) fought as a strategic force on one sector of the front and not as auxiliary units for the Poles. But even the 6th division, although separated, was commanded by an Ukrainian general (Marko Bezruchko), who even briefly was a commander of a larger Polish-Ukrainian task force (during the defence of Zamość). Anyway, I would still insist on adding Ukraine back as I fail to see the analogy between the Ukrainian People's Republic and the Soviet Ukraine. The level of independence of the latter seems quite negligeable (if any) and the state did not even have its own military command at all.

5. Creation of independent Ukraine was raised by the Polish government even before the military conventions were signed between the two states. Anyway, the Polish military and political aims for the operation can be drawn from a variety of documents. The facts I mentioned above are simply a proof that the promises were kept and that no Polish military or civilian authority was created in Ukraine - eventhough it was a common practice. Contrary to what you say, not maraudering on captured territory of an foreign nation was not that common back then and even now is common mostly in the cases where the two states are allied. Note for instance the Russian pillage of Ukraine after the Russian offensive.

As to the documents: - Polish military operational orders collection, November 8th, 1919 - June 6th 1920, Centre for Keeping the Historical and Documental Sources, Moscow, Polish division has most of the Polish orders of the time. Among them is gen. Haller's proposal of an action in the Ukraine, the main aims of which were to be capturing the nods of Koziatyn and Zhytomir so as to outflank and destroy either the Russian 12th or 14th army. There are also the orders and reports of maj. Julian Stachiewicz, Polish CoS, who was ordered by Piłsudski to prepare a plan of such an action. The only time Kiev is mentioned in the document is when the author notes that capturing Zhytomir would cut the 12th Army out of its reserve centre in Kiev. Yup, you guessed it, this was the plan executed by the Poles in April-May of 1920 - yet it does not mention Kiev... The plan is explained by Stachiewicz in great detail in Działania zaczepne 3. Armji na Ukrainie, Warsaw, 1927 (available in most central libraries in Warsaw). - The direct orders of Piłsudski shortly before the battle (as mentioned by himself, Stachiewicz and Wyszczelski), who had to chose whether to attack the 12th or 14th army. According to Piłsudski's letter (May 1, 1920) to Skulski, Polish Prime Minister of the time, the 14th army has, until recently, been the most active and it is possible that it received the most reinforcements, so we could benefit more from its destruction. However, by attacking in the south we would have no other option but to attack frontally instead of surrounding the enemy. - Orders of the Polish General Staff issued on April 13th and April 14th, in which the Polish staff created a re-organized OrBat for the offensive and mentioned the tasks of each of the groups. - The final order of April 17th (Dyspozycja operacyjna dla ofensywy na Ukrainie; published in Tadeusz Kutrzeba, Wyprawa kijowska 1920 roku, Warsaw, 1937). It mentions specifically that the orders of the Polish forces are to outflank and destroy the enemy. The orders were as follows: the assault Operational Group under Rydz-Śmigły was to capture Zhytomir and the bridges on Teterev; Rybak's group along with the 4th division was to assault Ovruch and Korosten in order to cut the Soviet Western Front in two and outflank the enemy. Similar tasks were for the Cavalry Division (later renamed to 1st Cavalry Division), which was to take Koziatyn. Finally, the 7th cavalry brigade was to cut the communication lines so as to prevent the 12th army from retreating eastwards. The orders also mention that the operation should be completed 3 days after its start and that the aim of the Polish forces is securing the Zhytomir - Berdyczów - Rajgródek - Chmielnik - Bar - Wierzbowiec line. There is no mention of Kiev whatsoever... Do you need more documents? Just let me know. As to the Russian ambitions on that specific front and non-Polish sources - I guess you should try the Direktivy komandirovanya krassnoy armii, it's a fairly decent collection of materials - and it is pretty common in many libraries in the East. All is there, including orders to Budionnyi and Yegorov...

6. But then we can't discuss of the aims. There is no proof that the aim of the operation was Kiev. The fact that it was actually taken is just a result of the fact that the Reds successfully withdrew, without putting up any serious resistance. But the initial plans of the operation assumed reaching the lines mentioned above and seing what happens - most probably moving the reserves to the Belrausian front.

8. See Talk:Polish-Soviet War

9. I already did. Your turn now. Cheers, Halibutt 03:55, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

2. I would assume that you are aware that the treaties of Brest were voided according to the Armistice agreement that ended WWI in 1918, long before the Kiev operation I do not know the size of Petlyura’s army, but the article only mentioned two incomplete divisions and the fact that local Poles had to join them, rather then Polish units. The treaty of Riga, in which Poland conclusively negotiated over the Ukrainian lands as its own, argues against an independent foreign policy on the side of Petlyura. And the “alternative” Ukrainian state survived from December of 1917 until nowadays (with a name change) and even became a founding UN member after WWII. Which proves that a country may pretend to have a foreign policy without being independent (my POV). I am sure that Vichy France was also part to some treaties, etc. The main test of independence from Poland (could it exist without Polish troops on its soil?) Petlyura’s 2nd government failed.

5. Did Poles promised to establish a state for Petlyura without Kiev? If they had promised him Kiev, how come it was not in their goals (at least, long-term) during the offensive?

I truly envy the amount of time you afford to dedicate to this issue.

I assume that the “libraries in the East” are not in the Eastern US, so my chances of getting them are pretty slim (unless East refers to China where I will be later this fall). With that, I have to assume the accuracy our quotes. None of this orders claim any goals besides territorial conquests. The quotes unambiguously state that the goal was to conquer and secure places like Zhytomir. If such a town still existed after all the fighting around it, were Poles able to secure it (that is, met their goals), or were they pushed away (that is, failed in their goals)?

6. How “seeing what happens” refers to the promise of establishing Petlyura as the ruler of the Eastern Ukraine? Did Poles intend to keep their promise and install a new regime in Kiev or not? I am trying to follow your arguments, but I am hopelessly confused.

Halibutt, I understand that “Polish defeat” is completely unacceptable to you. I understand that you still designate the campaign as “unconcluded” (which in English means “unfinished”, as opposed to “inconclusive” which means “uncertain”) and your determination is unrivaled (good luck to Irpen). I, on the other hands, was drawn into the whole discussion out of a stupid habit of checking the links from the WIKI main page, which lead me to the PSW and this page, which to an untrained eye looked obscenely biased (my POV). I would expect that many non-Pole with a rudimentary knowledge of the conflict would have the same feeling about the page even you delete the POV mark. Please consider this for your future projects, if you want your theme of Polish glory to gain credibility among the non-Polish visitors. Sometimes, admitting a loss may make the other claims of victories more credible. As for me, I have neither time nor means to test the correctness of your sources and their translations (as we have found out with our friend Wojsyl, some little mistakes may be quite misleading) and you, probably, know it. So, how about “Soviet victory” or even “Partial Soviet victory” for a compromise? I hate “minor victory” statements, because it seemingly refers to the significance of the issues as stake (e.g. the significance of PSW was tremendous), while “partial” refers to the achievement of goals.

My final thought: who came up with requirement to have “victory” or “defeat” in the battlebox? Why not to state the factual outcomes (e.g. “Polish offense was repulsed” or “Polish-Soviet border was determined”) rather than our opinions about them? This is done by other encyclopedias, as well as many pages on Wiki.--EugeneK 04:29, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

2. Yup... so what? The Germans gave the Ukraine to the puppet Ukrainian state a month before the treaty of Brest. Then the Russians officially ceded all those areas to the axis, which ended up the matter as far as the international law goes. Anyway, what does it have to do with this article? Would it really benefit from the Ukrainian army being omitted, regardless of your personal views on the political history of Ukraine? Seriously?

5. Nope. The Polish-Ukrainian treaty is easily accessible, if not in the web, then in any serious book on the period. I mean any book. Basically, it was a military alliance joined with a political convention with delimitations of borders between the two states. There was no mention of any cities there, only promises of common joint fight against the Russian agression. As to the Zhytomir remark - I'm afraid I don't understand what's exactly your point here.

6. And who made such a promise? Certainly not the Polish government. Read the treaties and check what's there. Nobody promised to establish anyone anywhere. Check the sources for yourself, please. The government was already there, Poland simply accepted it as the legitimate government of Ukraine and signed an alliance with it, pretty much the same way as the French accepted Dmowski's committee as the sole representation of Poland and then signed an alliance with it. Nothing strange with that, really, unless you view Petlura as someone who was "invented" in Warsaw and brought to Ukraine from abroad, in some sort of a "revolution from the outside" a rebours...

As to the rest of your remarks - please, prepare a list of things that are POVed and need NPOVing. Preferably with serious arguments and quotations rather than "I have no idea what's the thing all about but there must be something fishy" remarks. That would be much more helpful - and would spare us lots of work. As to the result of the campaign - you're right, I still fail to see how such a dramatical failure of both sides could be seen as a victory for any of them. In short, the operation could be divided onto three major stages: Polish assault in which the aim was to destroy the enemy armies and then be able to move northwards (in which the Poles failed), then the take-over of Kiev and a series of offensives and counter-offensives, which changed absolutely nothing (well, Piłsudski's orders were to defend the border at all costs, so perhaps that period could be seen as a Polish tactical victory) and the third phase: the Bolshevik offensive with the aims of encircling the Poles and defeating the Ukrainian front (in which the Soviets failed). If the main aims of all the operations was the city of Kiev, then the decision of how to call the entire series of operations would be much easier. However, from military point of view Kiev was a secondary objective - for both sides. Soviet victory would be quite misleading since they did not achieve any of their goals for the operation... If we really have to conclude it with two or three words, then I would vote for Polish and Soviet defeat. How about that? BTW, there were many more evident Soviet victories (I mean campaigns we might call victorious without inventing facts) during that war. Why not focus on those? Halibutt 05:24, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

The goals

Whatever the real (or stated) Polish objective would be:

• liberating Ukraine
• destroying Soviet armies in a grand battle
• capturing Kiev

it is apparent that the Poles failed in this operation as neither of these goals was eventually achieved. Anyone who claims otherwise should provide the sources to support the alternative view, I believe. --Wojsyl 06:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The second seems the most supported - and you're right it was not achieved. But as I already mentioned, the Reds did not achieve their goals either... Halibutt 13:56, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Українська Народна Республіка

How can we describe Ukrainian People's Republic in a non-biased way ? Saying that this was a puppet state seems POV. Saying that it was the rightful state of Ukraine seems not correct either (as the controversial Ukrainian Soviet government existed at the same time). Any ideas ? This reminds me of the situation in Poland immediately after WW2, where the official Polish government was in exile, while Soviets brought their of communist government, imposed it onto the people and eventually gained international recognition for it, while the government in exile was slowly forgotten and left for extinction.

Maybe look at it this way: If Piłsudski and Petliura succeeded in 1920, nobody would contest the state of Ukrainian People's Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet government would be forgotten. From the western perspective, Petliura seemed as the rightful representative of the country, isn't it ? Did anyone other then Soviets recognize the Ukrainian Soviet government then ? --Wojsyl 06:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, UNR or UPR is often applied to a string of governments, perhaps incorrectly. A good place to start is Ukrainian People's Republic itself. It is well written, mostly by a single author (user:Mzajac), based on a modern book on UA history, although the article covers only part of this chaotic time. For now, I cannot say anything more on the issue but I will see what I can find. --Irpen 07:20, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

New lead vs copyvio old text

Compare current article text:

"It was a bitter day for the Poles and Ukrainians on June 13 when Kiev was evacuated and left to the Soviets. Petliura's Ukrainians, although few in numbers, fought bravely and with fierce determination throughout the rest of the campaign. In the face of almost unlimited Russian reserves and the slow growth of the Ukrainian army, Polish and Ukrainian forces were ordered to retreat. While the units managed to withdraw in order and relatively unscathed, they were tied down in Ukraine and lacked sufficient strength to support the Polish Northern Front and strengthen defenses at the Auta River during the decisive battle that was soon to take place there."

And look at this site:

"Despite beating the Soviets on several occasions, the willingness to defend Dnieper Ukraine and confidence in their ability to withstand the Soviet offensive, they were ordered to retreat. They managed to withdraw in order and relatively unscathed but it was a bitter day for the Poles and Ukrainians on June 13 when Kiev was evacuated and left to the Soviets. Petlyura's Ukrainians, although small in numbers fought bravely and with fierce determination throughout the campaign."

Especially interesting is that the external site above is not even listed in references. I can't tell off hand whether there is anything else and how many more lines of text is copied from elsewhere. Maybe the site above copied this from another source in the ref list or maybe whoever placed it here asked for and received a permission.

I don't know for sure how this is treated by policy and I suspect this may get deleted with edit history. If so, I would like to have newly written lead stored here for preservation in case the history that contains the copyvio gets deleted.

The Kiev Offensive (or Kiev Operation) was a Piłsudski led attempt of Second Polish Republic to wrestle the control over Ukraine, or a significant portion of it, from warring Ukrainian factions and Soviet Russia. A first major military operation of the Polish-Soviet War, the battle was carried from April to June 1920 by the Polish Army in alliance with some Ukrainian forces under the nationalist leader Symon Petliura on one side, and Bolshevik led Red Army, also with the Ukrainian participation, on the other side.

Initially succesfull for the Polish army, which captured Kiev in May, 1920, the battle was dramatically reversed, partly due to the mixed attitude of the native Ukrainian population, but mainly because of the growing pressure from the Red Army counteroffensive. Polish and Petlyura's Ukrainian troops allied to them were forced, to retreat from the area.

Please do not edit the text here and apply your edits to the article directly. This here is only for storage purposes. --Irpen 16:52, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

I like your edits. I worked on this article some time ago, and I thought I have rewritten this earlier - apparently not. What I don't understand is why wasn't the site linked in references. Now that I think about it, I think I took those quote from some usenet of forum post of a person who said I can use it on wiki and didn't tell me they were from a site. Good that you cought that up. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, honestly I am a bit surprised to see that you thought that "It was a bitter day for the Poles and Ukrainians on June 13 when Kiev was evacuated and left to the Soviets. Petliura's Ukrainians, although few in numbers, fought bravely and with fierce determination throughout the rest of the campaign" phrase is usable in any case. I did not know who added it, honestly, but I've seen your work elsewhere and I don't remember you inserting such poetry in the articles. I suppose it just slipped though. Never mind, since Wojsyl or myself have already changed that. My changes were mostly limited to the lead but in view of my following post, my part is concluded for now. Unfortunately :(, --Irpen 07:29, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

References

Irpen, you said that you've used the review of "Dramas of Ukrainian-Polish Brotherhood" film as a reference. I cannot find where is it being referred to within the article ? Other than that I repeat what I've tried to explain earlier, that you cannot use a popular weekly magazine as a scholarly reference for an encyclopedic article on history. If you find it interesting reading, you could link to it in "other reading" or "external links" or similar section instead. I'm not trying to imply whether the magazine itself is biased or not, but it is not a serious source for reference. Imagine what would happen if other people would start using Polish newspaper and magazine articles as references. We need to limit ourselves to primary and secondary sources. --Wojsyl 06:27, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I wrote to an article, parlty, based on what I read in these articles. People use NYTimes elsewhere. I would not refer to from-ua.com. Since WP is not a Britannica yet, I consider refs to the papers and magazines of high level acceptable. If you insist, you can move them back to expernal links. The difference between further reading or external links really is that this material is not a suggestion to a reader where to look for more but citation to the source of the info I used for this article. --Irpen 06:38, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Using magazines as references could be acceptable for current affairs, political or maybe social issues, as an illustration but not as a researched source for history article. I do not want to remove these links, as they may provide interesting information, but I feel incomfortable having them cited as references. I'm not against Зеркало недели specifically. I would say the same if you referred to NYT or other magazine or paper (or other encyclopedia as you know). Citing magazines is also extremely dangerous here, as it's increadibly easy to find a magazine article to support any claim. I'm sure you know it and would not like to see someone using dozens of Polish magazines for reference now. It's also difficult to argue that one magazine is credible, while another is not, as this is a mater of POV usually. Can we move it to "external links" please ? --Wojsyl 07:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, as for the US affairs, I would doubt a ref to People (magazine) but would be happy to see a ref to Atlantic Monthly, even if not for a current events article. ZN is in the middle but closer to the latter. How about dividing this into "Academic References" and "Other References" or something similar. If you see such solution unacceptable maybe you can find a different term. "External links" seems a little disrespectful for the level of these articles, expecially the one about Pilsudski, but I would take that too. Peace! --Irpen 07:29, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Would "further reading" me less disrespectful then "external links" ? Let's try this. I'd be afraid of future discussions resulting from academic/other references subsections. --Wojsyl 08:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Wojsyl, I am conserned about "further reading" a little bit, because usually it is saved for bibliography that was not used for a particular article but is a recommended reading for anyone interested. Maybe an additional "Online references" section after "references"? Anyway, this is less important and I am not motivated enough to keep up with a more serious argument ongoing at these pages. Just tired to point to what seems to me obvious to no avail. I would like to thank you for the work we did here. As for my battle outcome disagreement with Halibutt, maybe I am just plain wrong and don't see it. --Irpen 07:34, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Again find myself reverted

That's an overkill, Halibutt. You reverted my entire edit, which included a factual addition and not just the change of an outcome. And I see you reverted the Battle of Wołodarka, even pointing out in your comment that "it would be hard to find a major battle won by the Bolsheviks in that war" too. That's exactly what EugeneK was warning about here yesterday.

You get online and the first thing you did was revert my edits in both articles. You had no way of knowing of course, that I was writing at this page at the very same time but actually EugeneK and myself said more than enough here. I was not able to respond yet to your just posted new message Talk:Battle of Wołodarka but you reverted to what you wanted anyway. Fine, you can have it your way. I withdraw for now. I will need time to get to the mood on writing for these articles. I insist on POV tags on both since I don't see my objections adequately addressed.

On a side note, I made some research and found another book and online reviews which I wanted to elaborate on in the article but I will leave this to others for now. Just not to have my search effort wasted, here is the link to a book and some online reviews for it. "Michael Palij, The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919–1921: An Aspect of the Ukrainian Revolution" The material as a whole plays to both sides of this argument but I will leave it to others to use it. I hope other editors, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and of course the rest, will keep working on this article and be bold to disagree and discuss this. I will try my efforts at other topics for now. With best regards --Irpen 07:37, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Irpen, don't get this too personal. I indeed reverted your unexpected, unsupported and unsourced change of the outcome of the battle, as I'm still waiting for the others to provide some evidence (as you so far failed to do this). The factual addition was in my honest opinion not only unneeded there (this article is not on the history of UNR), but also bad English. Believe me, it was not a blind revert just for the sake of it.

As to Battle of Wołodarka, let's keep the discussion on it there. BTW, perhaps you hadn't noticed, but I also added examples of the battles won by the Bolsheviks, so there must be somnething wrong with your understanding of my remark. Ask specific questions there and I'm sure we'll come to terms.

As to POV tags - so far you have not presented any source to prove that the Polish orders of the time were fake and that the true aims of the Poles when they entered Ukraine were different from those expressed by the Polish command. In other words, you smell something fishy here, but I have yet to see a single proof. Be bold, but please provide evidence when asked to. Anyway, as to this article - was the battlebox outcome summary the only thing that was disputed? If so, then I removed the tag and added a brief explanation on what is actually disputed - the way I understand it. Is it ok with you? Halibutt 11:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

POV dispute

I adressed all issues raised by Irpen and explained the outcome in a separate footnote, which should sum up the outcome controversy. Yet, Irpen re-added the POV tag. So I'm kindly asking him to list all the issues that are left for us to fix here. Also, currently the tag suggests that there is a POV dispute going on, while I believe there is none left and that the matter is settled. Isn't it? Is there anything left? Irpen, when you add the tag again - be sure to add the discussion as well. Halibutt 02:35, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

...And..? Is the POV tag still needed? Halibutt 08:34, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to remove some sentences suspected to bear potential POV and now removed the tag. Let's see if there are any specific objections left. --Wojsyl 14:16, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent Irpen's edit

See . I have some questions:

• why 'political asylum in Poland' was changed to 'exile from Ukraine'?
• 'military defeats...from the Polish army'. Did Peltura ever fight with Polish forces? At Talk:Polish-Soviet_War#Irpen.27s_edit Halibutt argues this was not the case.
• why the sentence 'recognized each country's independence and guaranteed respecting cultural and ethnic minority rights within each country.' was replaced with 'his government that was supposed to join the Polish-dominated Międzymorze Federation'? This is a signifiant POV shift: the old version portrayed Peltura's as a more equal partner (sacrificing some territory but getting real independence), the second in essence implies he would be close to a satellite/puppet state
• Consider another change: Meanwhile Polish military intelligence was aware of Russian preparations for an all-out attack on Poland to Meanwhile Polish military intelligence was aware of Russian preparations for an all-out effort to repulse the invasion. Does this need any comment?
• 'Before withdrawal from Kiev the Polish army destroyed much of its infrastructure...' - Irpen, can you use proper VISIBLE inline referencing system? Unless one is editing the text, this addition appears as unreferenced.

While I agree with the removal of the word 'political' from the outcome (it was strange, and the defeat was military as well), and the Meltyukhov addition is referenced (so unless sb can provide contrary sources it should stay), I think that all edits in between are highly POVed. I don't suggest reverting to previous version, but some middle ground must be created. I'll take a stab at it, but comments are welcomed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I found sources denying Polish destruction of Kiev. From : The Poles denied that they committed these acts of vandalism, claiming that the only deliberate damage they carried out during their evacuation was blowing up the bridges over the Dnieper, for strictly military reasons.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:32, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I would consider adding the {{NPOV}} tag again... Halibutt 05:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I tried looking for any sources again ('Kiev'+'1920'+'destruction/destroyed') but couldn't find anything. English sources would be much appreciated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

They year 1920 is not even mentioned in our History_of_Kiev#1918-1941. I tried looking for 'history'+'Kiev'+1920', but again there is nothing about any damages suffered by the city (other than the bridge being destroyed - btw, in 1941 it was destroyed again, by the Soviets this time ). At least I have a selection of various 'history of Kiev' elinks that we may want to add to History of Kiev: , , (this one describes some destruction of the city by Denikin's forces), . So I am really beginning to doubt that the destruction of Kiev, reported by Trotski, was anything more than normal damage suffered by the most cities during the fight and in that case popularised by Soviet propaganda.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, the source is listed. If its being non-English renders it unusable in your opinion, please fins an English source to any claim supported by Polish only source added to WP by Molobo (especially) as well as Halibutt and yourself. I see double standards here. --Irpen 21:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't say that we should remove this source, I just say that we should be specific, as this particular reference looks rather dubious to me. It is making the claim that 'Kiev was made almost unlivable' - something that big would surely be repeated by many other sources, wouldn't it? Two questions: this article you reference (in Russian and Ukrainian) is it an academic article or a popular science/news article? And does Mikhail Meltyukhov gives any references for that part?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, one more time, Meltyukhov's book is not a tabloid to say "Meltyukhov writes". I can attack many claims you make using Polish sources by changing it "Polish web-site claims". He is a very respected historian and referring to his work as you would refer to the Sun tabloid is unacceptable. His book being in Russian is as much of a problem as many Polish books being in Polish you are using all the time. I suspect that you attack the info simply because it puts Poles in an unfavorable light. Well, the truth is that like any nation, Poles committed acts of savagery among many honorable actions they also did. --Irpen 22:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I am confused: is the online reference his entire book, or is is his article, or is it someone's article quoting him? I don't 'attack' his book, but it doesn't strike me as a very NPOV source (note, please, that I don't mean we should remove it). Anybody who writes "The failures of the Polish army only whipped up its vengeful vanalism." (vandalism?) seems like a rather POVed writer - something that a 'respected historian' should avoid. I'd expect to find such language in the 19th century book, or a tabloid, but not in the 21st century respectable academic book. This, and the lacks of any other sources collaborating his story (well, outside the well known for his neutrality and careful research Trotski...), leads me to suspect that as I wrote above this is just a (unintentional repetition of?) Soviet propaganda piece, portraying normal results of city warfare as some terrible Polish attrocity. but again as I have no proof for that I by no means insist that we add such interpretation to the aricle: instead of weasel wording the sentence to make it seem like it is about a common NPOVed fact I merely ask that we note that (as far as our current sources tell us) this is a statement made by this historian (and nobody else).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, I can find more info on this in Russian easily. I simply chose to refer to an academic work rather than some web-sites. I changed the ref to make sure the quotes are from the book, not "some recent article". As for noting that some info in Misplaced Pages is merely a statement made by this source, I would agree if we decide to change the standards and require such disclaimers uniformly. I see plenty of info in Misplaced Pages, referred only to Polish web-sites. As such, not only I can't check it (I practically don't read Polish) but I can't even know how credible is the source. Would you mind weaselizing the claims referred to such sources as "according to a Polish web-site xyz.pl..."? --Irpen

If that's the best reference we have, the user should be warned about it. Again I see no problem with mentioning whom we cite - especially when we cite 'respected historians' this addds the credibility to the article. I'd have thought you'd be happy to see Meltyukhov name appear in the main article, as it raises his visibility and may attract more people to edit his article? Note that I may no assertions in the text about the his credibility, I just note that 'recent publication by x states that'. It is not 'weaelizing' but on the contrary, it's just more referencing.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Very well then. May I suggest you go over History of PL 39-45 article and modify all info refed to exsculesively Polish sites as "Polish web-site XYZ claims". While at it, please give another thought on whether the info on Parade in Brest and Molotov's quotes that Molobo copied there from narrower articles belong to such a broad article. If you think it's all right there, I will copy what I wrote about the parade here to History of PL, 18-39 article. --Irpen 23:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

And while you are considering whether to cleanup the History of PL article, let me answer the questions you asked here earlier.

• "asylum changed for exile": Exile more accurately describes the Petliura's situation. Petlura came to power through the coup d'etat overthrowing the governemnt of Skoropadsky, who also came to power in a coup supported by Germany. OTOH, the Soviet Ukraine's government from Kharkiv could claim its legitimacy to the initial Central Rada since it was based on the pro-Soviet leaning factions of the Rada. Thus, Petliura's claim to be a legitimate leader of Ukraine was questionable to begin with. Secondly, he was indeed in exile, on the run from the country he claimed to have ruled.

• • • The above point is, sorry, ridiculous. In the elections of 1917, Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionaries (Petliura's party) won about 60% of the vote while the Bolsheviks won around 10%. (source: Subtelniy's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Press). You give legitimacy to the government representing the tiny pro-Soviet factions of the Rada while denying the legitimacy of the government led by one of the main figures of the party representing 70% of the Rada. Andrew, May 10, 2006

• • I see your point. Perhaps we both have the cake and eat it: he was exiled and asked for asylum, right?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• "the old version portrayed Peltura's as a more equal partner..." Nothing can be further from truth. Poles had a well-functioning organized army and Petliura was a leader with questionable legitimacy claims whose military force was of laughable scale and who was on the run from the country he claimed to have represented. Poles needed the legitimate reason to make their operation look not like an invasion. In similar fasion one might claim that Osobka-Morawski was an "equal partner" of Stalin when they were signing "agreements".
  • I tentatively agree, but it would require more research how constricted the Ukrainians were. For example, were they given the level of autonomy more similar to IIWW Polish forces in the West or East? Polish gov-in-exile had a much more leeway then the Union of Polish Patriots.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• Changing "an all-out attack on Poland" for "all-out effort to repulse the invasion. We are talking about Kiev operation here and an attack on Kiev could have been called an attack on Poland some hundreds year ago but not in the 20th century. The Polish army invaded Ukraine and captured Kiev. A counterattack on the Ukrainian city occupied by the Polish forces is not an attack on Poland.
  • Well, perhaps 'the invasion of Ukraine' will be a good compromise, as it surely was not an 'invasion of Russia' - and I'd like to avoid this confusion.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• "vandalism". Vandalism is not necessarily a POV term. Destruction of the civil facilities is vandalism, it's just a right word. We may argue that the claim of destruction is false. To this I can only say that I wasn't there as well as anyone who is editing the article. We have a historic book that says it happened and we have no books that say that it didn't happen. We only have a source that say that Poles denied that. That's not the same things as the statement that the claim was indeed false. Soviet Union denying the Katyn incident didn't make the events untrue. Meltyukhov is certainly not the only source where one can find information about the damaging of the city infrastructure. However, he is a serious historian and a specialist of the subject. His book belongs to the post-Soviet historiography and cannot be presented like Soviet propaganda claims as Piotrus tried. Besides, the destruction of a unique for its time bridge is even admitted by the Poles themselves and, as such, cannot be presented with a "Soviet propaganda stated..." tongue in cheak form. I translated the full quote from Meltyukhov from Russian to English in the article's references list. As you see, Meltyukhov, only refer's the cathedral's destruction to the Soviet propaganda. But not other objects. The bridge destruction is also referred to an article in the Western publication (Ukriane-Observer). If the Poles deny everything but the bridge, we can state the denial in the article. But one cannot call the data referenced to a respected historian's book simply a "A Soviet propaganda".
  • Right, we have a source that it happen and a source that it did not. I think we have cleary estabilished that the bridge was blown, and the cathedral wasn't. As for the others, we have a claim for and a claim against, this is why I think we should note that this is uncertain. Otherwise, before 1989 one could argue that - to use your example - 'Katyn Massacre didn't happen, although some claimed otherwise'. Currently, the text states that the city was destroyed by the Poles and than, as an afterthought, adds that the Poles denies this. I think that at least adding the info that the destruction of Kiev by the Poles is a claim made by this particular historia and Trotsky is justified, just as we state below that it was the Poles who denied the claim. If you have other Russian sources making the same claim, we can either list it or upgrade the sentence to 'Russians' or 'Russian historiography', but given the Poles denial below I think the current sentence is constructed in a misleading way.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I am looking forward towards similar skeptical views towards the Polish sources used in History of Poland (1939-1945) as well as for opinions whether minor details like Molotov exchange and Brest parade belong to such a wide topic article, as well as a lengthy section about "treatment of Polish citizens". I could go there and try to do a clean up myself but I normally don't just delete stuff, but try to make changes to an article to preserve the text flow and encyclopedicity. It takes time and I hate seeing my time wasted when I am reverted on the spot. As such, I would like to get assurances that others agree that minor or excessive details don't belong to wide topic articles. If others disagree, I think we should add the parade and the city distruction details to the History of Poland (1918-1939) article. --Irpen 06:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I created the subarticle (red, the last time I checked) just so we can move the 'copied and excesive' materials there.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Dispute

What's the problem? Poles got kicked out from Ukraine, so it was a military defeat. Granted, they did not get mauled as badly as the forces in Belarus, and for many units it was a rather organized withdrawal, but it was a defeat nonetheless. After all the red counteroffensive did not stop before Warsaw. It wasn't decisive military defeat, not like what happens to Bolsheviks at Warsaw. Please, can you agree here on the wording? I think that just 'Polish defeat', with a note to explanation, is the best way to go.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Polish defeat is fine with me. For some users it it migh be hard to accept that the Poles used to loose battles, but that's how it was. I will reply to your post above separately. --Irpen 01:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Guys, read any book on military operations in the area. In short, the aims of both sides were not to gain land as Ukraine was at best a secondary front for both sides. Sure, important from a political point of view, but completely irrelevant to the military operations of both sides. Both Poles and the Bolsheviks tried hard to destroy as many divisions in the area as they could - and both failed. I happen to have both Piłsudski's and Rydz-Śmigły's orders for the operation at hand. Needless to say none of them mentions the capture of Kiev. What they do mention is the destruction of Red forces in the area. Similarly, Russian directives were not aimed at regaining Ukraine but at outflanking the Poles and destruction of the Polish southern front.

From purely military point of view the operations in central Ukraine - both the Polish offensive and the Soviet counter-offensive which deserves its own article, BTW - ended with no victory for either side. Sure, it was a political defeat of the Poles as Piłsudski's dreams of free Ukraine had to be dumped afterwards. But calling the Polish operations a military defeat is just plainly wrong. And it's not about Irpen's ad personam arguments above, it's not even about common sense. It's about military strategy.

Also, contrary to what Piotrus wrote above, the Poles were not kicked as badly as in Belarus as they were not kicked at all. Not a single Polish unit destroyed. Also, it was not an organized withdrawal for many units as all units were withdrawn in order. Finally, the Polish losses in the operation were minimal at best and the Russian counter-offensive in the southern front never even got close to Warsaw as it was stopped in Ukraine (battle of Lwów (1920) anyone) and the single attempt to break through the Polish front (battle of Komarów) was a complete disaster... for the Bolsheviks. Poland did loose battles and operations in the Polish-Bolshevik War, both minor (battle of Zadwórze) and major (Berezina), but this one was not a defeat. A strategic withdrawal at best, but not a military defeat in any way.

Having said that, I would agree for the current wording as long as there's an explanation that the operation is described as a Polish military defeat almost exclusively in Soviet sources. However, I still believe that the text should explain that the result was either inconclusive (as noone won) or a Polish political defeat. Halibutt 03:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, I hereby ask Irpen to provide sources that would say that the outcome of the operations was a decisive Polish defeat. Wyszczelski's book is a monography of the entire campaign and devotes several dozen pages to the description of the consequences, but in the end he states that both the Polish and Russian operations ended as a failure. Polish version of Davies' book does not mention the alleged Polish defeat, neither does my high school handbook. Are there any scholarly works to call it a Polish decisive defeat?

BTW, such a term would suggest that the Polish army was badly beaten, while such wording IMO should be applied exclusively to battles like the battle of Warsaw (1920), which were decisively won by one of the sides. Other battles were usually less evident - and this one is among the most notable examples of that category IMO. In Talk:Battle of Wołodarka Irpen once suggested that the battle in question could not have been a Polish victory since the Russian army was pushed back and not destroyed. I wonder why does Irpen apply double standards here... Halibutt 05:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, please don't misstate things. At Volodarka, I said that there could not have been the Polish victory not because the Soviet army was not destroyed but because the only result of the battle was that everyone stayed were they were and that in a less than an week Soviet offence the Poles withdrew. So, the achieved nothing in Volodarka except not loosing in at once. This is not a victory, but an inconclusive result which became conclusive in the following Soviet offense. I suggest the interested parties study the article's talk page. As for "decisive", here, I am fine with the "polish defeat" without "decisive". But please do not push the weasel "Political defeat" to the result of the military operation. Political victory and defeat may be in a political battles, such as the election and stuff. --Irpen 06:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Your comment from talk:battle of Wołodarka: But here, I would agree to "inconclusive" since mostly it ended with everyone retreating to their original position. In the case of this operation it was exactly the same. After several weeks of fights everyone basically retreated to their original positions. Double standards anyone? Halibutt 13:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

If you don't see the obvious difference, I will elaborate (later, I don't have time at the moment). In the meanwhile, I suggest you reread WP:TROLL#Pestering. --Irpen 14:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

If you suggest that I'm a troll and that I'm pestering here, then you might want to help me by quoting the easy-to-find answers. Otherwise please stick to the topic and avoid personal remarks. Halibutt 15:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Halibutt that it was not a decisive defeat, but nevertheless as I stated above it was a defeat: Poles were forced to retreat. So either Polish defeat or Russian victory should be the outcome of this campaign.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainians - missing

I think we are missing information on Ukrainian forces: I don't even see the names of their units in 'Poles/Ukrainians' sections. Who was their commander? Was Petliura a military commander (and thus go to battlebox), or was he just a political leader?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Colonel Marko Bezruchko commanded the 6th Ukrainian division, while Colonel Oleksander Udovychenko commanded the Third Iron Rifle Division.

Technical problems

For some bizzare reason, every single edit I make to the page corrupts Irpen's new reference (). I'd appreciate it if somebody could see if this is my localized problem or something larger (corruption shows on preview/show changes for me), and - assuming this is my problem only, and that my edits as visible avove are non-controversial - apply them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian loyalties

I have made some minor changes with respect to the beginning of the article. It stated that "many ethnic Ukrainians viewed it as a Polish effort to seize Ukraine and rallied to fight in the ranks of the Red Army." How many?

I removed that part because it suggested that Ukrainians played an important role in repelling the Pilsudski-Petliura Kiev offensive, implying that they were opposed to it. In the elections of 1917 60% of the people of Ukraine and over 70% (77% in Kiev gubernia) of the people populating the territory captured by Pilsudski and Petliura voted for Petliura's party. This contradicts the impression made by the original article, that Ukraine's population was as strongly opposed to Petliura as for him. An excerpt from the online Encyclopedia of Ukraine article:

Here is data about the elections in Ukraine to the All-Russian Constituent Assembly in December 1917:

In Ukraine the 7,580,000 votes cast were divided in the following way: the national groups (non-Russian parties) won 61.5 percent (among them the Ukrainian SRs won 45.3 percent); the Russian SRs, 24.8 percent; the Bolsheviks, 10 percent; and the Kadets, 3.7 percent. Of the 120 deputies elected in Ukraine, 71 were Ukrainian SRs, 2 were Ukrainian Social Democrats, 4 were from the national minorities (1 Pole, 2 Jews, 1 Moslem), 30 were Russian SRs, 11 were Bolsheviks, 1 was a Kadet, and 1 was from the Union of Landowners. In six districts where the bloc of Ukrainian socialist parties (SRs, the Peasant Association, and Social Democrats) presented a single list of candidates, it won a clear majority of the votes: 77 percent in Kyiv gubernia, 71 percent in Volhynia, 60 percent in Chernihiv gubernia, 60 percent in Poltava gubernia, 52 percent in Katerynoslav gubernia, and 33 percent in Tavriia gubernia. In Kharkiv gubernia and Kherson gubernia the Ukrainian and the Russian SRs ran together; therefore the Ukrainian SRs received only 12 percent of the votes in the former and 25 percent in the latter gubernia.

source:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages\A\L\All6RussianConstituentAssembly.htm --user:Faustian

Not only Ukrainians but most respected historian view the Offensive as a Polish attempt to seize Ukraine. Check, for instance, Britannica Article:

Russo-Polish War (1919–20), military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine.

...the conflict began when the Polish head of state Józef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7.

So, while your view that Poland was liberating Ukraine may be interesting, it is against the established biew in historyogtaphy and cannot be pushed into the article, especiallu its introduction. --Irpen 18:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue of liberation or invasion is an interesting one, but not quite relevent to the implied claim in the introduction that there was some sort of equivalency between the number of Ukrainians fighting for the allied Polish-Ukrainian forces and those fighting for the Reds. This was why I had taken out that quote. Most sources suggest that most Ukrainians were apathetic and did not take sides in that struggle; Petliura was only able to recruit about 20,000 soldiers. Do you have evidence that a similar amount rallied to the Red Army to expel the Poles/Petliura? I have not come across any hisotrical work suggesting this; Babel's memoirs mentioned ethnic Ukrainian cossacks fighting for the Reds, but they were from adjoining Russian territory Kuban, not from Ukraine itself. If you can't find a source documenting significant Ukrainian rallying to the the Red Army during the Kiev offensive, I don't think the original quote should stand. Indeed, the data from the last elections in Ukraine suggest that if anything the Ukrainians were more sympathetic to Petliura. So I will respectfully change the wording from "many" to "some" until someone can show a significant number of Ukrainians rallying to the side of the Red Army during that conflict.

Coming back to the issue of liberation versus invasion, Britannica's wording is not definitive, as for example the actions of Allies during World War II could be worded in a similar way. Petliura's relationship to Pilsudski may have been analogous to DeGaulle's relationship to the American and British allies. Faustian 19:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

First, the electoral information appears to be well sourced and I see no reason why it should be excluded. While we could use more academic sources, I see no reason why Petliura's role should be minimized. After all, he was one of the most prominent Ukrainian leaders of his time, wasn't he? Second, Britannica is far from perfect, as has been demonstrated again and again. I think Faustian has a good point demanding references for the numbers.

Regarding liberation, I'd strongly discourage the use of word, it has recentl become a sore spot in quite a few articles. The only force that can be seen as doing the liberating here were Peltura's forces - as the only clearly Ukrainian unit on Ukrainian territory. Certainly it does not apply to neither Poles nor the Reds. Polish Międzymorze has never happened, it's motives are still disputable, 'Soviet liberation' is usually an oxymoron is and the end result in the Riga was certainly not a liberation for Ukrainians.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The electoral information should be not excluded but added to various article on the History of Ukraine but not to the article about the specific miltary operation that, btw, took place in some time and many events after that election.

I have no intention to use "liberation" here.

That Petlura was the most prominent leader of the time is doubtful but he certainly was prominent. However, an amount of support he could still garner in 1919-1920 following the defeat of Skoropadsky is uncertain and should not be derived from 1917 election results. --Irpen 19:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

As I promissed, I added the source that quantifies the Ukrainian participation in the Red Army. From "Ukrainian Armies 1914-55" by Peter Abbott added to refs:

In Feb 1918, the Kharkiv gov of an "alternative" UPR formed 5 "armies" of 2000 men each. In Nov. 18 to repell the Central Powers two Ukrainian "divisions" were formed, reinforced by two Russian ones. In Jan 1919, the Ukr. SSR begab to form a Ukrainian Workers' and Peasants' Red Army which by mid-1919 had some 100,000 men. The comman was later tranferred to Russia and the members were integrated into the Red Army as 12th and 14th Armies... The Galician UHA joined the Reds in Han 1920 and retained a separate identity for a while. Finally, "Red Cossacks in Ukraine" began as first a regiment and then a brigade in 1919. During the PSW the UA authorities arranged for their transfer to Ukrainian front where they were expaned into a division (later a corps).

All the info is from the above referenced book. --Irpen 20:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Meltyukhov one? Oh, I see you mean the Abott one. Seems reasonable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. To put things in perspective, in early 1918 in comparison to Kharkiv's Bolshevik puppet government's 10,000 troops the forces of the Ukrainian National Republic numbered around 100,000. Most of the "Ukrainian" troops in the Red Army were recruited from industrial centers east of the area controlled by Pilsudski's and Petliura's forces during the Kiev offensive and thus consisted of ethnic Russians. Ukrainians tended to fight on the side of Petliura or of numerous local war lords (atamans)who at times allied themselves with the Reds but who basically acted independently. Nikifor Grigoriev and Nestor Makhno were the most famous of these. There were no prominant Ukrainian commanders from within the Red Army, and the neither of the first two leaders of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Georgyi Pyatakov and Stanislav Kosior were even ethnic Ukrainians. The issue of the Galicians fighting for the Reds in an interesting one and deals with their opposition to Petliura's deal with Pilsudski relinquishing claims upon Galicia, rather than belief in a Polish invasion of Ukraine. I wonder though, if the Ukrainians in the Red Army were volunteers or conscripts. The Bolsheviks were efficiently conscripting soldiers throughout territory they controlled (a major reason for their victoryt in the Civil War). Petliura's men, and those of other non-Bolshevik forces such as Makhno's army, were mostly volunteers.

My sources for the info were: Subtelniy's History of Ukraine and Paul Robert Magocsi, A History of Ukraine, University of Toronto Press: Toronto 1996, ISBN 0802008305

With respect to the election results, you made a good point that the situaion in 1919-1920 could have been different than in December 1917. However the burden of proof should be on you to show that attitudes were different. Actions such as the constant anti-Bolshevik partisan activities by various local otamans such as Makhno suggest that wasn't the case.

Accordingly, I have taken out the phrase "the Ukrainian population viewed it as a Polish effort to seize Ukraine" because there doesn't seem to be evidence that the people as a whole thought so. I have also added the Ukrainian National Republic to the column of combatants and changed Soviet Russia to Red Army to reflect the fact that the latter were not exclusively Russian forces. Because the Ukrainian troops were integrated into the general Red units the Ukr. SSR probably shouldn't be listed as a seperate combatant Faustian 21:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with you on most point, I had changed back Red Army to Soviet Union before I saw your reply. We can't have a country facing an army, and I'd suggest that the composition of RA, as you outlined above, should be added to the article to make it clear. As Soviet Union is a greater level entity then any of it's SSR, and none of them held any real power, I do agree that it shouldn't be indicated that it was an independent political entity.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen, you either don't list puppet govs as participants, or list them all. UPR was a valid gov of Ukraine some years before that, but not when Petliura was on the run and had to beg Pilsudski for military help and sell out the WUR's Ukrainians for that.

With respect of election results, I don't see the "burden of proof" as my opponents suggest. There is nothing obvious in expecting that political preferences of people stay with the same forces for years, especially in such turbulent times. There are no more reasons to assume the loyalties remained as they were than that they changed.

I moved a ref that presents the "Ukrainian view" towards their "liberators" to the top of the article where the resoted phrase is. Finally, the note, Piotrus altered was indeed formally a joint note of two govs. The independence (or lack of it) is a separate issue. The fact is that formally it was a joint note. --Irpen 23:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

With respect to the liberation (why quotation marks?) of Ukraine by Pilsudski/Petliura, Norman Davies in his book Europe: a History discusses it, writing on page 935 of that book "The Poles and Ukrainians marched into Kiev, and were welcomed as liberators." Davies is a senior member of the Wolfson College, Oxford, and a fellow of the British Academy. The book was a New York Times Notable Book of the Year and has been praised by the Guardian, The Times, etc. A generalist work, he did not devote much space to the issue although he was the author of a highly regarded book on the Polish-Soviet war and is a noted specialist in eastern European history: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/johntusainterview/davies_transcript.shtml

Your claims that Petliura's was a "puppet government" and that its status is equivalent to that of the Soviet Ukrainian government are unfounded. It was no more a puppet government than was the Polish government in exile a British puppet government, or DeGaulle's government an American/British puppet government. Petliura's government represented the parties that won 60% of the all-Ukrainian vote and over 70% of the Right-Bank/Kiev vote in the December 1917 elections while the Soviet Ukrainian government represented the forces that won only 10% of the votes in the elections, and were situation in the Russian-inhabited industrialized eastern fringe of Ukraine that were not even occupied during the Kiev offensive. Unlike in the case of the Soviet forces, Kiev was handed over to the Ukrainian authorities and was under the control of Petliura's, not Poland's military. Here are relevent quotations from another discussion on wikipedia's Polish-Soviet War page:

...As to the alliance with Petlura - Piłsudski would might want to swallow his piece of cake after the war, but this is a mere speculation. On the contrary, the fact is that a free Ukrainian buffer state, strong enough to be a decent ally, was what Piłsudski had in mind when he signed an alliance with - badly beaten and expulsed from his territory - Petlura. He diverted much of his forces from the north, where the major battle was soon to take place, to give the Ukrainians a chance to establish their own army and defend their territory, while Polish forces could move freely to the north. Such a friendly stance towards the Ukrainians was a major problem for the Polish logistics at the moment (many sources quoted by Wyszczelski - see the bibliography - support that). The orders from above forbidden the Poles to gather food or supplies in the Ukraine and all had to be transported from Poland. Also, the Polish forces were forbidden to conscript people in the conquered territories and all were to be joined with the Ukrainian units - even the numerous volunteers from the Polish diaspora living in Kiev itself. Finally, there was no Polish military nor civilian authority created in the area and all authority was immediately passed to the Ukrainians so as not to create an impression of a foreign occupation.

Of course, after several years of constant warfare on their territory and soon before the harvest time, the Ukrainians were not exactly keen on joining yet another Ukrainian army, which is why the conscription to Petlura's army mostly failed, but this is a completely different story. Anyway, all in all the Polish units in Ukraine were not occupants. There is even one memoir quoted by Wyszczelski, in which one of the Polish officers recalls an order forbidding the Polish units to hoist the Polish flag above the trenches not to hurt the Ukrainian feelings. Piłsudski was really careful as he knew the price perfectly well... Halibutt 23:48, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Another note: By order of Rydz-Śmigły, all Polish units were withdrawn from the city of Kiev and the garrison duty was carried out by the Ukrainian 6th division only. (source: original order quoted in Tadeusz Kutrzeba (1937 (underground reprints in 1988 and 1989)). Wyprawa kijowska 1920 roku. Warsaw, Gebethner i Wolff.). Halibutt 00:18, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Equating Petliura's government with that of Soviet Ukraine is somewhat like equalizing the legitimacy of the Polish government in London exile with the Polish Communist government in the wake of World War II, or De Gaulle's government with the French Vichy regime. I realize the issue is somewhat more complex, given that Ukraine had a pro-Soviet Russian population on its territory (particularly in areas east of the the furthest advance of Pilsudsky/Petliura) and that Ukraine was a chaotic place. But the election of 1917, the anti-Bolshevik guerilla activity throughout central Ukraine lasting until late 1921 don't suggest a lot of support for the Soviet Ukrainian government. Accordingly, this wikipedia entry shouldn't suggest that this support existed (perhaps I should add a post-script about Ukrainian resistence in Ukraine through 1921 in order to provide relevent context?)

Because unlike the forces of the Ukrainian People's Republic, Soviet Ukraine did not field its own units and could not act independently of Moscow it would be wrong to list Soviet Ukraine as a separate combatant; I have therefore removed them (for the same reason, it would be wrong to list Dzerzhinsky's Polish Revolutionary Committee as a seperate combatant in the Polish-Soviet War). Because Soviet Ukraine did not field a single military unit, how can it be listed as a combatant? Because the Soviet Union did not come into existance until 1922 the label seems problematic: clearly it was controlled by Moscow but included Ukrainians soldiers integrated into the Russian units. Soviet Russia might be the best label unless someone has a better idea.

I have made changes according to what I have written, above, and have also added figures about the number of Polish/Ukrainian troops involved, taken from Subtelny's Ukraine: A History. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1988. ISBN 0-8020-5809-6.

Faustian 13:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think quite a lot of the above info should be moved into this and related articles. As for the Soviet Union naming problem - it was also discussed in the PSW talk and should be there (or in the archives). Briefly - we considered using 'Bolshevic Russia', but the proposal did not have majority support.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Polish Vandalism

I have also removed the examples of Polish vandalism in Kiev. It is largely irrelevent to the military aspect of the conflict and seems meant to create the false impression that savage/destructive Poles versus Soviet liberators. One could easily devote a lot of unnecessaary space listing all of the atrocities and damage caused the Reds as they marched westward (not to mention Cheka's arrests and executions), but this would cloud the main issue being the Kiev offensive. The melodramatic words about the beautiful destroyed bridge probably are meant to further this feeling of pathos; destroying bridges is a necessary act of war when retreating. It seems silly that the entry on the Kiev offensive devoted more space to acts of Polish vanadalism conducted during the retreat, than on the capture of Kiev itself! It makes the article sound like communist propoganda. I am frankly shocked that such vandalism was mentioned to that degree, when the destruction, looting, violence committed by the Red forces upon the civilian population were not only far greater but more widely documented. The Red Cavalry was notorious for its plundering and murder as it marched west. One need only read Isaac Babel to get a glimpse. This part of the account of the Kiev offensive is like, when writing about World War II, devoting alot of unecessay space detail about the Soviets' scrorched earth policy (including mining the main street of Kiev) and other acts of vanadalism while not mentioning any German atrocities. Shouldn't we stick to the main story? Faustian 13:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC) Faustian 14:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the best thing to do - and something Irpen should agree with, judging by his arguments about where to put references to parades or attrocities and such - would be history of Kiev article. And I certainly agree with your impression of the effect that the current bloated para, based on a single book, likely based on Soviet propaganda, has. On the other hand, if you have any sources about the vandalism/looting commited by the Reds in Kiev, it would be a great counterbalance to this para.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about such events in Kiev itself following the recapture of that city. But the events occuring afterwards are mentioned multiple in times in Isaac Babel's acount of the counteroffensive iunto Poland, an excellent and well-written eye-witness account of that war from a communist perspective. He understandably fictionalized some of the details in his "Red Cavalry" but my version of the book includes his diary entries. An excerpt, from June 20, "...stories of pillaging by Budyonny's men, shivering and terror (followed by 23 missing pages). There's a reference to such acts: http://historynet.com/mh/bl-battle-of-warsaw/ which comes up immediately when googling "budyonny" and "atrocities".

I'm at work but will look into history books, for more details at home. During a brief search could not find any references on the internet to alleged mass acts of Polish vanadalism in Kiev in 1920. Faustian 16:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that info on Polish vandalism needs added to the history of Kiev, I don't see it moved from here. This is an exact article for it. I did not add this to a broader articles such as History of Ukraine, History of Poland or even the related Polish-Soviet War. This occured duing this very battle, referenced to a book by a respectable scholar (not to Soviet propaganda) and is clearly relevant. I am restoring it. --Irpen 17:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Hold on a second. First of all, blowing up bridges by retreating armies is standard operating procedure, practiced at the time by all armies, including for example by the Russian army when it withdrew from Warsaw in the summer of 1915 and blew up all the city's bridges. How would you feel if a section on such "Russian vandalism" was added to the Warsaw and First World War related articles?

Second, what is this statement about the city being made "practically unlivable". If that is actually true, please cite some references about the population of Kiev leaving the city en masse after the Polish retreat. After all, surely not many could have survived in a "practically unlivable" city. Balcer 18:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, destroying the electric power and sewage for the city doesn't amke it unlivable? Sorry, I don't get the question. Or is that that you deny the factual accuracy of that. I referenced the info to an exact source. --Irpen

Keep in mind that this was 1920, not today when everything runs on electricity, hence one could probably live in Kiev without electric power. So, all I meant to say is that "unlivable" sounds POV and vastly exaggerated. A nuclear explosion or a firestorm generated by massive bombing makes a city unlivable, not this. At any rate, the reference you are quoting does not use that expression at all. Balcer 18:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

As has been pointed above, the only primary source with allegations to any destruction of items other then bridges is the Leon Trotsky telegraph, at least parts of which has been proven false (the destruction of the catherdal). The second source, Meltyukhov from 2001, must obviously be based on some primary sources, but we have to assume that it is the Trotsky telegraph (unless somebody can find any other primary refs). As I was unable to find a single English source (academic or otherwise) confirming this 'vandalism', I really think that the entire para is dubious, and it should be clearly stated that those allegations are made only by Trotsky and Mikhail Meltyukhov.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, Meltyukhov uses as his source the book: Войны польского империализма 1918-1921 or Wars of Polish Imperialism 1918-1921, published in 1931 in Moscow (I am guessing that is what M means), written by А.Пшибыльский (A. Przybylski?) who was presumably a Polish writer, as the book was apparently translated from Polish into Russian. Anyway, a book published in the Stalinist Soviet Union under such a POV title seems to me like a piece of crude propaganda, and not a source with any credibility whatsoever. If that is the only source of information about "Polish vandalism in Kiev", it will simply have to go. Balcer 19:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It is also interesting to note that the title of the book by Przybylski is found in only one place by Google, on the website quoting Meltyukhov's book. That also does not inspire much confidence in the source. Balcer 20:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Another interesting little tidbit: here is what the Great Soviet Encyclopedia has to say about Kiev's history in 1920. 6 мая 1920 К. был захвачен войсками буржуазной помещичьей Польши, но уже 12 июня оккупанты были изгнаны из города. Obviously that encyclopedia does not have much love for Poland of that time, as it refers to it as "burgeois landowning Poland", and yet it somehow neglects to mention the "great vandalising of Kiev by Poles". That settles the issue for me. This episode simply did not happen, or if it did, its significance and scale has been vastly exaggerated. Hence, unless better sources are provided than a 1931 Stalinist propaganda book, that section must go. Balcer 20:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

You are right. If that is the only source for that info it should go. There is nothing remarkable about the destruction of railroads in Kiev, given the fact that there was a war going on. The other info seems to have only one source, and a dubious one at that. The whole para seems to take up unecessary space. Faustian 21:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian combatants

The newest version is must better than previous ones. I have made a couple of changes. One, which is perhaps the most relevent, is in the combatant section. The Ukrainian People's Republic had its own military units invovled in this operation. Indeed, the number of troops in the Ukrainian units was 18% of the total in the invasion, using the figures from Subtelny's (1988) History of Ukraine. So it legitmately belongs as a combatant.

Soviet Ukraine, on the other hand, did not have its own military units. There were many Ukrainian soldiers within the ranks of the Red Army - a fact that is legitmately included in the introduction - but Soviet Ukraine did not in itself field those soldiers. Therefore it should not be listed as a separate combatant, because it as an entity was not combatting anyone. The fact that it was a Soviet puppet regime, created and based in the largely ethnic Russian eastern fringe of Ukraine (Kharkov) rather than Kiev, highlights that fact.

I also deleted the reference to most Ukrainians viewing it as an invasion. The quote you provided was contradicted by Davies' book Europe: A History. It also discusses a particular event in that struggle, when the Poles marched through Kiev, and not the entire episode. As written previously, the Polish troops were replaced by Ukrainian ones, who has exclusive control over Kiev. Subtelny (1988) writes that the Ukrainians were not enthused because of traditional bad feelings towards Poles, historically seen as landlords/exploiters. However Ukrainians did not like the Bolsheviks either. I think ambivalence would be a more realistic term that reflects those people's attitudes. Faustian 21:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think "ambivalence" is a reasonable compromise but I strongly disagree with the removal of the entire reference. Also note, that the quote is not to the later writing historians but the dairy of the direct witness of the event which makes it even more valuable and reliable. Please restore it.

As for the Soviet Ukraine being listed or not, I think it should be. It did have an army initally, later integrated to the Red Army, and it had a formal government that, for example, issued the diplomatic notes to Entente. The truth of the matter is that this was mainly the war between Poland and Russia for the control of Ukraine. Ukrainians caught in the middle split their loyalties. UPR by the time of Petliura's exile was only a nominal state. If you insist on listing it, UkrSSR should be similarly listed.

I will respond to Balcer's note above about vandalism separately. But I am surprized that people refuse to believe and demand more sources even while some are provided. There is plenty of stuff in Polish articles referenced to a single Polish newspaper article by a journalist or some of Molobo's favorite nationalist cites. These events here are referenced to an academic book and people are willing to still fight over them. I will add more when I get to it. --Irpen 21:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I demand more sources because I have read quite a bit of literature on the subject, and none of the books discuss any "vandalism" by Polish forces as they left Kiev. Here is one example: Survival and Consolidation: The Foreign Policy of Soviet Russia, 1918-1921, a book which goes into quite a lot of depth about the Polish-Soviet war. yet on Polish retreat from Kiev it simply says: On June 7, Zhitomir fell; four days later the Red Army entered Kiev. All the other books I am able to find on Google Print also simply state that Poles left Kiev, without any mention of vandalism or destruction of civilian property. So, whatever happened in Kiev in early June of 1920, it is not significant enough to be included in this article. Feel free to discuss it at length in the History of Kiev article, which is the perfect place for it. Balcer 21:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's just separate two issues. The first one is whether the facts are right and the second one is whether they are relevant for this article. If the facts are wrong, there is no issue. We have sources that say it did happen but you are dissatisfied with them. That seems to be a situation. I will look for more but even what we have warrants at least a mention. If the facts are right and Polish troops vandalized the city, there is no more relevant article for this info than Kiev Offensive, the military operation that brought this (along with the History of Kiev). I did not add this to the general PSW article, like Molobo adds the Brest parade even to the History of Poland. I did not of course add this to the History of Poland or of Ukraine articles as well. So, let's concentrate on the facts for now. --Irpen 21:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I somewhat agree with you, Irpen, on relevence. If it indeed happened, this would be a better place for the info than any other place. But the damage done seemed quite typical of warfare, so why mention it? Should we list a bunch of violent acts committed by Budyonny's soldiers too?. However I am not convinced the facts are right, if the only one source is a Soviet publication from the 1930's and nobody else seems to have mentioned it.

I am satisfied with the new intro, and I think that the reference is appropriate. The eye witness seems credible but he describes one event. Persumably attitudes changed once the Ukrainian troops took over the city. With respect to the combatants, while there had been Soviet Ukrainian units in other battles, at the time of the Kiev offensive there were no separate Soviet Ukrainian units. The "Ukrainian" soldiers were integrated into the Red Army. With respect to its formal "government", the diplomatic notes it issued do not make it a combatant in the war, since none if its (nonexistent) military units took part. The fact that Ukraine's government had been defeated and forced into exile prior to the Kiev Offensive is irrelevent to this issue. It fielded two if its own divisions, under commanders loyal to its government, comprising 18% of the soldiers on the Polish-Ukrainian side. The Soviet Ukrainian government fielded none of its own military units during this struggle.

You are correct that it was mostly a Polish-Soviet Russian conflict. But while the Soviet Ukrainians were an integrated part of the Soviet Russian side and represented a puppet regime run by Moscow, the Ukrainian People's Republic, the creation of the Ukrainian people as reflected in last elections, operated its own military units, and functioned as an independent government. Indeed, it continued to do so after the end of the Kiev offensive, according to Subtelny (1988) unsuccessfully invading Ukraine without any Polish participation with over 30,000 of its soldiers in late 1920, and operating guerilla units within Ukraine until late 1921. The latter facts obviously don't belong in this section but help to show that Petliura's government was a seperate - albeit minor - player rather than (as was Soviet Ukraine) an appendage and therefore deserves to be listed as a seperate combatant (unlike Soviet Ukraine). Faustian 22:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, could you please cease to use Molobo as your main argument? This is not the place for it. Let's just concentrate on the merits of this article.

I can well believe Polish forces blew up Kiev's bridges and disabled its railroad network before retreating, as these were standard practices in wartime. As William Tecumseh Sherman said, War is hell. I really wish that the European armies of the time had an understanding not to destroy infrastructure, as that would have preserved countless beautiful bridges at the very least, but that was quite simply not the case. But I have seen no convincing evidence that these actions in Kiev were somehow particularly significant, or that they constituted vandalism. The simple fact is that all armies of the time routinely destroyed infrastructure as they retreated. This cannot be called vandalism, and it is incorrect to ascribe this to some deep psychological motives. It was a standard practice during a war. As such, it does not warrant a mention here. Balcer 22:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

No it does warrant a mention. Destruction of bridges and railroad stations (two stations, not just "rails") is well-sourced, undeniable and not everyone did it. Reds did not do it, btw, when they retreated. The bridges were indeed a treasure of the city as I wrote on Kiev bridges article, so it was a notable event. Whether it was vandalism, we can argue. I agree on rephrasing. Meltyukhov calls this vandalism but this is an opinion, not a fact, unlike the destruction itself. Destruction of the electric power station, water supply and sewage system is indeed vandalism as per very definition of the word. I will look for more sorces on that. If I don't find anythning else, we will negotiate on how to mention it with the disclaimer who said that and that others don't confirm. --Irpen 22:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, please rephrase the paragraph then, and we can continue the discussion. Also, I think it is clear by now the Poles did not damage the Cathedral at that time (see ). That allegation should simply be removed. Balcer 22:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What's clear is that they did not destroy it. Whether they damaged it is not clear from what we know. But note that as it stands now, it just shows that Soviet propaganda also made false claims as it is clear that the cathedral wasnt't destroyed. If you think, it is an unimportant detail, I am fine with removing it. --Irpen 22:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Please remove it. Let's just stick to what actually happened. Balcer 22:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, done. --Irpen 00:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I can live with your version, but I toned it down a little bit. The place to describe the beauty of Kiev's bridges is in the Bridges in Kiev article. Please try to keep your writing objective, and avoid making this article an object lesson about the barbarism of the Poles.

There still remains the point that Meltyukhov's allegations are based on a highly suspect source from 1931. I have not been able to find that book in some catalogues of Russia university libraries. Could you try to locate it, to make sure it exists? Also, you mentioned that you will look for more sources. How is that search going? As for Meltyuhkov's respectability, that's not clear to me. He supports the thesis of Suvorov that the USSR was readying to attack Germany. This is a highly controversial thesis among established historians. Balcer 00:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You are probably talking about Meltyukhov's "Stalin's Lost Chance" book. Well, it does not support the Suvorov's nonsense. This is OT but let me elaborate. Suvorov's thesis was that Stalin planned to invade Germany. Not only such war plans were drafted and the preparations were in order but there was a political decision of invasion. Meltyukhov claims that the plans and preparations for such war were indeed in place and, unlike Suvorov, who worked from London, Meltyukhov bases his book on an extensive study of Soviet archives. However, note, that in mid-20s century all military doctrines were based on offensive rather than defensive wars, even the Polish one! With the development of mobile troops, the defencive tactics were much more dangerous and everyone was planning to fight on the enemies territory. It would be plain stupid of Stalin to not prepare for the offensive war and istead to build defences. OTOH, nowhere Meltyukov claims that there was a political decision (aside from routine preparations) to actually attack Germany. No date was set. Neither a schedule. As such, he does not make a controversial thesis you claim. I will look for a book. --Irpen 00:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your viewpoint. I also agree that Meltyukhov's is significant in Russia. Anyway, this is attested to by the fact that he has his own article on Misplaced Pages, so people can click on the link and find out about him. The following might interest you. Balcer 00:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)