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Vadakalai and Thenkalai

It is a well known fact that Vadakalai=Northerners, and thenkalai are southerners. It is a mere translation and everyone knows this. Above all, the fact is supported by sources. But recently, a user had changed it as "Vad=south, and then'=north", which is too mischievous. It's like saying "arctic is south pole while the antarctic is in the north" - laughable indeed. It makes the whole article unstable. But, it is a silly and laughable piece of contrib' which has to be reverted right away. Above all, the reference provided(the particular inline citation) has it all. Making a small change like that might go unnoticed, but it is too big(figuratively), as it changes the whole interpretation. I can't believe this is happening. Too silly!! Anyhow, i'm posting the refs here with explanation.

• - It goes as - "These vadamars or vadagalai ie northerners" as distinct from tongalai or southerners. - The changing Indian civilization: a perspective on India - Oroon K. Ghosh
  
  
• - "They were divided into Vadakalai(northern) and thenkalai(southern) castes". - Rural society in southeast india by Kathleen Gough, published by Cambridge university press
  
  
• - Vadakalai(Northerners) - Pg.72, Aryans in South India – by P. P. Nārāyanan Nambūdiri, Inter-India Publications.
  
  
• - Vadagalai(Northerners) & Thengalai(Southerners) - Linguistic Culture and Language Policy By Harol Schiffman (published by Routledge-London, Taylor & Francis e library, Routledge-New York)
  
  

Thank You!! Hari7478 (talk) 08:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Hari, my brain flipped. Sorry. - Sitush (talk) 08:56, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It's alright. Actually, the first edit was made by a one "user:Hayagreevadasa". Hari7478 (talk) 08:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Religious observances

A lot of details are missing in this section. I tried to make changes and provided citations for all. But the page has been reverted to old version

Edgar Thurston as a source

The works of Edgar Thurston are of very dubious reliability and I intend to remove them. Do we have any more recent sources for the information currently attributed to him? - Sitush (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Vadakalai Vs Tenkalai (again)

Sitush, I refer to the Vadakalai vs Tenkalai section, which i intend to fix as per the objections raised earlier on, with the Wiki Dispute Mediation. I suppose you are aware of Robert Lester, who was a professor with the Dept of Religious Studies at the U of Colorado; and did extensive research on the Srivaishnava religion. I refer to his paper, Rāmānuja and Śrī-Vaiṣṇavism: The Concept of Prapatti or Śaraṇāgati, published in the History of Religions, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Winter, 1966), pp. 266-282. Kindly note the following reproduced from the paper:

Less than 150 years after Ramanuja's death his followers split into two well-defined groups: Tengalai ("Southern") and Vadagalai ("Northern"). The split had practical as well as theological bases, but it centered on the question of human effort versus divine grace in effecting the highest goal. Both of these schools of thought affirm bhagavadprapatti ("resorting to the Lord") to be the supreme means to moksa, the Tengalai defining prapatti as mere receptivity or lack of opposition to divine grace, the Vadagalai insisting that prapatti must involve a positive act on the part of one desirous of moksa before divine grace can effect such an end. The latter school, defined by Vedanta Desika, makes prapatti a six-member (shadanga) ritual act involving the recitation of certain mantras. Both schools claim Ramanuja as the central authority for such affirmations, the Tengalai appealing to Gitabhasya 18.66 and the Vadagalai to the Gadyatraya.

During the time of Ramanuja himself, there was nothing called Vadagalai and Thengalai. But after Ramanuja passed on, his followers divided themselves on the basis of philosophy, into Vadagalai and Tengalai; such that the prapatti ritual itself differs somewhat between these two sects. Thereafter the followers created geographical locations as their base, such that vadagalai followers centered in Kanchipuram and Tengalai followers in Srirangam. As noted in J.R.A.S. source above, "...North refers to Conjeevaram and South to Srirangam at first, later on Alvar Tirunagari further south,- and not to North and South Indias".

I believe Robert Lester is an acceptable source (all his publications are recent; not old). Can i proceed to make appropriate changes to the article? Thanks.--= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 21:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

@ all - Just because there are theological differences between the two sects doesn't mean "there's no ethnic difference". If Thurston is removed, it makes Mumme & Lester sources even less reliable. But Thurston's source has a peer review(Article, The Hindu, 1992) to back it up. Additionally, an author's description on "theological differences" are indeed assumptions and theories based on "deductive reasoning", acceptable though. However, you can't counter a "genetic/anthropological/museological" study with "theoretical reasoning". Nevertheless, the possibility of a "split/common origin" has also been mentioned in the opening line of the corresponding section. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 17:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Re to Hari7478

You are contradicting yourself. If there was a "split/common origin" to begin with; how can Vadakalai and Thenkalai be ethnically different communities? Please provide full reference (date, page number) of 'The Hindu' peer review on Thurston. I suspect you are misquoting sources again. Btw, Thurston did not research into religion. He merely recorded claims made by individuals, no matter how inflated they may be (including descent from Brahma). His job was to aid census and ethnography survey. Robert Lester on the other hand has been a standing professor of religion with extensive research into Srivaishnavism, origins of the Srivaishnava community and their sampradayas. As for the genetic/anthropological/blah blah assumptions you make; each of them (including misquoting sources to support your half-baked assumptions of racism) have been addressed in the section For Dispute Mediation; from which you chickened out, instead of agreeing for mediation. So either you agree for mediation this time around; or keep away from edits based on your assumptions. Make your choice and let me know. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Re from Hari7478

Though i couldn't find the '92 article after an exhaustive online search, i came across a new and a better review by the same Daily(The Hindu) which praises Thurston's 7 volume work as "an extraordinary input to the understanding of the diversity in Indian society." See here: http://www.hindu.com/mag/2010/01/24/stories/2010012450180400.htm . When a primary source is reviewed by a reliable "daily newspaper" you cannot dispute its authenticity(according to wiki' policies/norms), however you may opine. It's not a question of what you're saying, it's a question of what Misplaced Pages policy is saying. You have no right to give options, for me to make my choice. Since your conduct here isn't even close to being in the same vicinity of wp:talkpage guidelines, you leave me no choice but to request for wikiquette assistance. I suppose you already got a warning from another user for this behavior of yours in the past, and this response of yours is even more flaming.
I'm hereby listing a few reasons why i didn't agree to the mediation -

• More than focussing on article content, you were simply busy pointing out the other editor's(my) contribs by using names in discussions. Your talk page comments(the one above) are again examples of "incivility & stubbornness". The first thing ab't dispute mediation that you need to realize is "what is to be learned from this?". Your opinion ab't Lester being a "a standing professor of religion with extensive research into Srivaishnavism" is not even a valid counter arguement. Misplaced Pages is not about winning. I repeat - it's not a question of what you're saying, it's a question of what Misplaced Pages policy is saying.
  

• Regarding your comments on Lester's expertise on religion - you're again relating religion to a caste/ethnicity/community related article. Just because most Indian brahmin castes are closely tied up to religion doesn't mean it requires citations from religious experts. Thurston is a renowned expert in the field of museology & ethnology, and his works have been given a positive review by a renowned Daily. That's all that matters here in wiki. By the way Lester's books are from the 1970s and i hope you remember Sitush & Qwyrxian discussing the validity of these sources, sometime back in the same talk page.
  

Honestly, any other experienced user/admin would have done the same that i did. Hari7478 (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Re to Hari7478 (contd)

You do not even seem to know what peer reviewed articles are (Thurston produced a vast output of writings, and is deserving of the glowing tributes paid to him. However, there has been no peer review for his articles on Iyengars, or on any other community for that matter). Just because some people claim fanciful origins for themselves, does not make it correct. Anyways, am not against Thurston as a source. The article can very well mention "In colonial period, Vadakalais claimed to be northerners, etc, etc" and attribute the sentence to Thurston as a source. However, all your other points on genetics / ethnicity, etc, are merely your own assumptions. You have blatantly misquoted sources. Time and again, you have passed off your falsified claims and half-baked theories of racism; by attributing them to sources which convey no such thing. In such a case, there is no choice but to apply for mediation again.

Unfortunately, Sitush made alterations to the disputed section. Nevertheless, since you were the main author, and there is back-up with your meandering empty arguments, and ignorance, on display; the wiki mediation will be on (or against) you. Apparently, you do not want your ignorance, and devious attribution of (your) racist ideas to sources (which you misquote), to be questioned on a formal mediation platform, hence you do not agree to mediation. Nevertheless, you are answerable.

I request Sitush or any other admin to lock this article to protect against any changes. After the lock is put in place, will write out the mediation request. Otherwise, am afraid the sources and reference numbers may be altered; and mediation will become a cumbersome process on that account.--= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 17:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

"Castes and Tribes" is a 7 volume work by Thurston, and no one's going to give a "Chapter/unit specific" review. I never made-up things and i've explained my contribs to a few other experienced users in the past(reg sensitive contribs). I'll post the link to the '92 review soon. Finally, regarding the mediation - you badmouthed me even before your first mediation request, but then you apologized only when you wanted to get things done. This time your comments are not even in the same standard as the "least civil talk page comment". For example "meandering...half-baked...etc" are evident of your abusive behavior here. Being abusive won't get you anywhere - I won't be intimidated by such behaviour and i've been too patient, but not anymore. This will only serve to alienate people from such(abusive) users in a discussion. And, i'm not the one who's making changes to this article now. This article is already under the watchlist of a a few admins and they know what's best. Hari7478 (talk) 15:32, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

So, apparently you think 'The Hindu' newspaper article is a 'peer review' on Thurston. Ah well...no point talking to your likes. Anyways, this is a case of scientific racism (just as Sitush mentioned earlier). You have constantly fabricated, falsified and misquoted sources to pass off your theories (yes, half-baked and meandering) on genetics as well as general sources to that effect. All your allegations of me being uncivil, abusive, is simply an escape route for you to evade answering issues raised for mediation. So what am going to do is delete all the trash you put into the article. If this goes into an edit war, there is nothing you can do except agree for mediation. Good luck. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 04:18, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

another source

Agree with Mayasutra's reliability of source. Another source attributing the same reason

Patricia Y. Mumme, The Srivaisnava Theological Dispute: Manavalamamuni and Vedanta Desika, 1988 "it developed a theological dispute and sectarian schism over whether that grace is given in cooperation with human effort" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fastnfurios (talk • contribs) 02:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Ahobila Mutt 5th Jeeyar Thenkalai

Ahobila Mutt 5the Jeeyar Thenkalai

According to Ahobila Mutt, 5the Jeeyar is thenkalai http://www.ahobilamutt.org/us/acharya/bio/as2-7.asp

This is not a sensitive information when both parties agree to this. hari7478 not allowing to add this in Thenkalai or Vadakalai page.

hari7478 agree to mediation with Wiki.

(the above portion was written by Fastnfurious)

Re from Hari7478

As mentioned previously, Ahobila mutt(a srivaishnava source) is not a neutral party source for a challenged data. Even if both parties agree to this, it's not a valid wiki' src. It is possible that the agreement by both parties is intended to avoid conflicts in the future, as it has happened in the past. By the way, this is not be included in this talk page. It doesn't matter what you say. All that matters is what wiki policy says. Challenged data needs neutral party ref. Hari7478 (talk) 21:42, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Re to FastnFurious

Fastnfurious, am not inclined to get into mutt issues. Am only concerned about Hari7478 repeatedly misquoting sources to pass off his falsified claims on racism / ethnicity. Thanks, --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 17:15, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

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