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August 2005 – May 2006

Traditions

Would anyone care to tell me how jackets, songs, Rivalry, Smokers, Homecoming and Frosh Week are relevant and encyclopedic? Ardenn 18:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The Queen's song, Oil Thigh, has been in use for over a century. According to the Queen's Encylopedia, it was written by a student, Alfred Lavell in 1898 with its Gaelic chorus - Oil thigh na Banrighinn a'Banrighinn gu brath - being the university cheer since 1891. Translated, the chorus reads "The College of the Queen forever". The song is historic in that Queen's is an elite school in Canada with a fiercly loyal and powerfull alumni all of whom are familar with the song and other Queen's traditions. Some call it a cult. These is no copyright on a 108 year-old song. You can find references to it cited in a number of locations including the Queen's Encyclopedia if that meets your standards for citations. Also note that university fight songs have their own reference within Misplaced Pages and significant songs merit attention in articles on other top tier universities such as Yale and Cornell. When I was accepted at Queen's, my neighbour, a retired lawyer who graduated in the 1950's came to our house singing Oil Thigh to congratulate me. He still owned his Queen's tam (another tradition worthy of Wiki-mentation).

Oil thigh na Banrighinn a'Banrighinn gu brath! Cha-Gheill! Cha-Gheill! Cha-Gheill! and lighten up a bit! LeftCoast 23:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)LEFTCOAST

They are an integral part of the schools core traditions and have been around for decades. They are definitive of the school and one of the reasons why Queen's has arguably the highest level of school pride out of any university in Canada.

JaysCyYoung 20:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

So how is that encyclopedic and why does it merit inclusion in an encyclopedia? Ardenn 20:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I just explained to you. They outline some of the school's major traditions and provide an excellent background section created by several people attending the school and various alummini. Universities are all about traditions and enterprising events and passing on/creating as many different accepted activities as possible. I'm surprised that this was even an issue to bring up. I don't think you realize how important these things are to Queen's specifically because you probably aren't a current student or did not attend the school, but they do merit inclusion into the article. I'm not trying to be mean or come off as holier-than-though, so please don't mistake my comments as being indicative of that, but they are (once again) very important to the school and of great relevance to the institution.

JaysCyYoung 23:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone and removed many of them mainly because their not sourced. No original research. Ardenn 23:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please revert them back until we can have a larger group discussion on this particular topic. I am a current second-year student and tour guide at the school and I can verify that we are instructed to talk about all of the aforementioned traditions that you wrongfully removed. If you do not attend the school or are affiliated with it, I see no reason for you to take down the hard work of others without further group discussion. That constitutes vandalism.

JaysCyYoung 23:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not vandalizm, it's asking you to cite sources per Misplaced Pages policy. Ardenn 23:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You deleted the Engineering Jackets page link that was citing the source. If you want to look at it again it can be found at http://www.queensu.ca/admission/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=59 and http://appsci.queensu.ca/prospective/tradition/jackets/

Please, once again do not vandalize articles and delete them without group consensus on a matter. You deleted the section even though they were cited and that does frustrate me. As a student at the school I want to see the best possible representation of the school on Misplaced Pages and I do not appreciate the work of myself or others being deleted needlessly. Thank you.

JaysCyYoung 23:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The sources talk about the jackets, but that's it. They don't establish notability. Ardenn 23:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn is clearly incompetent if he's deleting sources and then saying we're not citing them. --Tykell 23:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The thing that upsets me is that a quick Google search easily verifies the information pertaining to both the Smokers and Jackets and yet (even when presented with evidence on the SCHOOL WEBSITE) this individual has taken it upon him to vandalize the work of others. Sources and citations have been provided, so this should not constitute an issue in the slightest regard!

JaysCyYoung 23:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn should keep a cool head! I thought he was quitting wikipedia anyways because we're so self-rightous. --Tykell 23:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

More proof of the notability of the school's traditions and spirit. I can provide more sources, but I think three provided already with little effort is really solidifying the case for the inclusion of the schools amazing traditions! :)

http://www.queensu.ca/about/VB/VB_10-11_Legendary_Queens_Spirit.pdf

JaysCyYoung 00:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've readded the jackets section, but I'm disputing it. Ardenn 00:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You have blanked pages without having a discussion and acheiving majority consent. I believe that you have gone rogue, sir, and have no business here since your editing of this article is clearly biased. As I see, an admin has ruled against you. Good day. --Tykell 00:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see no comments from an admin on this talk page about this article specifically. I removed unverified and copyright material. Ardenn 00:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. You see, I have no problem with you disputing information. That's what Misplaced Pages is for, as we all want to establish the truth and notability of information in articles. I have no issue with that, Ardenn. I just feel a group consensus and democratic discussion is the best manner with which to go about this. Now, I could make the language more neutral if others agree to have a more NPOV represented, and add links (although I'm not sure how to code citations properly yet).

JaysCyYoung 00:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

"Don't talk bollocks! And stop playing games. look at your own behaviour here." --Tykell 00:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't about this article. Ardenn 00:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I was not talking about this article. I was talking about revert warring on a user talk page. Ardenne perhaps the matter could be resolved if you explained what material is unverified and what is copyrighted? Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The songs are under copyright I believe. As for unverfied and unencyclopedic is the section on the darn jackets. I simply don't think they belong in an encyclopedia. Ardenn 00:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Why should an integral school tradition not be included on the university's page? It makes sense, especially for academic institutions like universities that rely on tradition and place a great emphasis on them. Queen's Jackets are a big deal to the students at the school and the school themselves. A quick internet search will reveal the debacle over the nearly 30,000 dollars in net loss for Arts and Science jackets last year, which was a contentious issue at the school this year. What is wrong with a section on some of the school's traditions? It is what makes it unique and is therefore noteworthy in my opinion. Any Queen's student would likely agree with me as we take great pride in our jackets.

JaysCyYoung 00:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you really believe the sond to be copyrighted? In this edit you removed the name of the songs as well as thier words. Now the names cannot possibly be copyrighted. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do. However, I should probably have left the rest and just removes the lyrics. I apologize over that. Ardenn 00:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Jackets

As a student at two competitor schools (albeit more than a decade ago), I can say that their is a clear sense of tradition in the jackets. The sourcing looks legitimate for verification (i.e. the Queen's admissions page lists jackets as part of the tradition ; what more verification do you need?) -- Samir (the scope) धर्म 00:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be two arguments going on at once here. one is that the info is unverified, disputed uncited. The other is that it's not encylopedic. The tags refer to the first argument. If citations are provided then the tags must go. The second argument i.e. they information is correct but trivial needs to be decided by the larger community. Try a RFC Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Whether they are encyclopedic or not is the question. But this is probably better raised another day so that cooler heads can debate. -- Samir (the scope) धर्म 00:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well two of the warring parties have been blocked for 24 hours to cool down and the page is currently protected. So yes, it's time to let things sleep for a bit. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 01:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, verification is one, and then there's the encyclopedic merit. While it is part of school pride, IMHO, it does not merit entry in an encyclopedia. I doubt you would see it in Brittanica. Ardenn 00:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not brittinica and shouldn't strive to be so. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 21:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't we strive to be so? Is Misplaced Pages not an encyclopedia? Ardenn 23:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Outsider comment: No one is apparently disputing that these jackets exist. No one seems to be disputing that this university thinks they're important. What Misplaced Pages needs from a sourcing point of view is citation from an external source that says they're somehow notable and an important tradition, known even beyond the reach of the school. Do people in other Canadian cities know about these jackets? In other countries? Have prime ministers made references to them? We simply avoid including information which is interesting and relevant only to some small, closed community. Hopefully that explains things a bit. Stevage 11:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

There are many more minor things included on other university pages that discuss traditions, and yes the jackets are known at other Canadian schools as it is one of the trademarks of the school's students. Therefore, it is notable. http://aics.acadiau.ca/case_studies/xavierjacket.html is a link that discusses how students at Xavier University modelled their jackets somewhat based on the one's from Queen's (also indicating that something as seemingly unimportant as a jacket was known in NEW BRUNSWICK). I'm not sure why this is such a big issue. Traditions are arguably the most important component of a university, so this is nitpicking moreso than anything.

"The leather jacket would have the university crest and the person's residence crest on each sleeve and the name of the faculty/program on the back, much like those Joe had seen at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Erin questioned whether there was a market for the all season design and if it would cut into sales of Xavier jackets."

JaysCyYoung 20:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In the grand scheme of things, outside of Queen's students and alumni, who actually cares about the jackets? Why would someone from Australia or Ireland care about the jackets? Why should they be included? We strive to make this important for people outside of your own small community to read. Ardenn 23:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think Stevage hit the nail on the head. If there is outside sourcing of the importance of the jackets, that would strengthen the argument to keep them. I've really enjoyed the new additions to the article by JaysCyYoung (particularly the pictures, which add a lot), but we must remember the importance of external verification. -- Samir धर्म 01:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

"Why would someone from Australia or Ireland care about the jackets? Why should they be included?"

Who cares about the school in the first place outside of the people who go there? Your point does not detract from the component that they are an integral part of the school's student culture and create a major source of group and school identity. Once again, the tradition aspect of the jackets and the fact that they are so closely identified with the school, especially by the students themselves, is of paramount importance in this instance. Why do you care for the record? Did you attend the school? Do you have a vendetta against it? I actually am curious.

JaysCyYoung 01:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)