Revision as of 17:41, 14 February 2013 editNorth8000 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers84,710 edits →"Tobacco Control"← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:42, 14 February 2013 edit undoThargor Orlando (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers7,066 edits →The tobacco industry and the Tea Party: rNext edit → | ||
Line 96: | Line 96: | ||
:::Darkstar1st: You clearly didn't see the edit I made, please actually know what you're talking about before posting. I only summarized what was in the two source, and gave those two sources only one sentence, so there wasn't an issue of undue weight. I only summarized what was in the sources (including ), so there wasn't OR. As the source points out, Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the Tea Party movement as a whole now, but (as is documented in sources here and in the journal article), were responsible for getting the Tea Party movement started. so your application of ] is incorrect at best and false at worst. The Huffington post article did use those words in summarizing parts of the study, but trying to apply WP:WEASEL to outside sources is nothing but Wikilawyering. | :::Darkstar1st: You clearly didn't see the edit I made, please actually know what you're talking about before posting. I only summarized what was in the two source, and gave those two sources only one sentence, so there wasn't an issue of undue weight. I only summarized what was in the sources (including ), so there wasn't OR. As the source points out, Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the Tea Party movement as a whole now, but (as is documented in sources here and in the journal article), were responsible for getting the Tea Party movement started. so your application of ] is incorrect at best and false at worst. The Huffington post article did use those words in summarizing parts of the study, but trying to apply WP:WEASEL to outside sources is nothing but Wikilawyering. | ||
:::Overall, I'm seeing wikilawyering (''bad'' wikilawyering at that) and tendentious editing in trying to apply BLP to groups, arguing that summarizing published works with no embellishment fails ''our rules'' preventing ''us'' from doing original research, and arguing that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is anything but the best source for one more way the tobacco industry has affected society. That is the shameful POV-pushing going on here, not my addition. ] (]) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC) | :::Overall, I'm seeing wikilawyering (''bad'' wikilawyering at that) and tendentious editing in trying to apply BLP to groups, arguing that summarizing published works with no embellishment fails ''our rules'' preventing ''us'' from doing original research, and arguing that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is anything but the best source for one more way the tobacco industry has affected society. That is the shameful POV-pushing going on here, not my addition. ] (]) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::I don't see a lot of coverage ''period'' yet, which should probably tell us something. As it stands, it appears that the link is "Big Tobacco wants to use 3rd party groups, one third party group that agrees with Big Tobacco also agrees with the Tea Party, thus the Tea Party roots are in Big Tobacco." I don't see how that exactly makes a ton of sense, or why it needs to be in this article. We have enough bad sourcing from both sides of the debate in this article to begin with, I fail to see what this adds at this time. ] (]) 17:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
== "Tobacco Control" == | == "Tobacco Control" == |
Revision as of 17:42, 14 February 2013
Skip to table of contents |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about the Tea Party movement, or any other aspect of politics whatsoever. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about the Tea Party movement, or any other aspect of politics whatsoever at the Reference desk. |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tea Party movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tea Party movement article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
The content of this article has been derived in whole or part from http://www.contractfromamerica.org/the-contract-from-america. Permission has been received from the copyright holder to release this material . Evidence of this has been confirmed and stored by VRT volunteers, under ticket number 2010102610010161. This template is used by approved volunteers dealing with the Wikimedia volunteer response team system (VRTS) after receipt of a clear statement of permission at permissions-enwikimedia.org. Do not use this template to claim permission. |
Attention: This article is on probation. Do not edit until you've read the notice below. Editors of this article are subject to the following restriction:
|
Just some typos
Under Organization:
"...notable politicians Republican politicians Ron Paul, his son Rand Paul,..."
should be
"...notable Republican politicians Ron Paul and his son Rand Paul,..."
for clarity and correctness.
Under Agenda: Delete New York Times definition - They are far left and not factual or credible. NOT "anti-government", but anti "irresponsible" government
Foreign policy
I've moved the following unsourced text here, with the hopes that someone could provide a reliable source citation for it:
- As a result, the Tea Party has shown it is largely distinct from the neoconservative and liberal internationalist viewpoints on foreign policy, while not totally endorsing the non-interventionist approach of the paleoconservatives and paleolibertarians. Some Republicans with links to the Tea Party, however, like Marco Rubio and Paul Ryan have embraced the neoconservative foreign policy through their votes on bills such as these.
It appears to be a conclusion of sorts, but I don't see it conveyed by the two "vote list" sources that precede it. Any help? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Cspan caller to Norm Ornstein Called for Tea Party Early February
On Cspan early in February 2009, a caller from Minnesota called for a Tea Part movement for America during a segment with Norm Ornstein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.53.204.177 (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
The tobacco industry and the Tea Party
- Study Confirms Tea Party Was Created by Big Tobacco and Billionaires
- Amanda Fallin, Rachel Grana, Stanton A Glantz, ‘To quarterback behind the scenes, third-party efforts’: the tobacco industry and the Tea Party
“ | Background The Tea Party, which gained prominence in the USA in 2009, advocates limited government and low taxes. Tea Party organisations, particularly Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, oppose smoke-free laws and tobacco taxes.
Methods We used the Legacy Tobacco Documents Library, the Wayback Machine, Google, LexisNexis, the Center for Media and Democracy and the Center for Responsive Politics (opensecrets.org) to examine the tobacco companies’ connections to the Tea Party. Results Starting in the 1980s, tobacco companies worked to create the appearance of broad opposition to tobacco control policies by attempting to create a grassroots smokers’ rights movement. Simultaneously, they funded and worked through third-party groups, such as Citizens for a Sound Economy, the predecessor of AFP and FreedomWorks, to accomplish their economic and political agenda. There has been continuity of some key players, strategies and messages from these groups to Tea Party organisations. As of 2012, the Tea Party was beginning to spread internationally. Conclusions Rather than being a purely grassroots movement that spontaneously developed in 2009, the Tea Party has developed over time, in part through decades of work by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests. It is important for tobacco control advocates in the USA and internationally, to anticipate and counter Tea Party opposition to tobacco control policies and ensure that policymakers, the media and the public understand the longstanding connection between the tobacco industry, the Tea Party and its associated organisations. |
” |
— goethean 23:09, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The first items is about 6 levels below being a source and credibility. The second one has some real facts in it plus spun statements that don't follow from the facts listed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- As usual, your comments are strictly partisan, have no relation to Misplaced Pages policy, and can be ignored as irrelevant. The academic journal article that the blog post describes and which the abstract summarizes is a reliable source of the highest order and will be used in this article. — goethean 14:11, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Why don't you discuss without the baseless personal insults? More specifically:
- On the first item, I was commenting on what you linked to (a clearly anti-TPM advocacy blog) not the item which you are now referring to but didn't link to.
- On the second item, a link to the "TobaccoControl" web site, what I said is that the material on that web page it contained some factual items and some statements that didn't follow from those factual items.
- How in your imagination do you get your "strictly partisan" crap out of that? Quit it! North8000 (talk) 15:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I am being more polite and charitable than your comments warrant. No matter, I have already requested through my local public library a copy of the full text of the academic journal article. I suggest that you do the same. — goethean 15:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'll charitably skip to your second sentence. Sounds like a good idea to see what is in there. It might be good material. North8000 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I love these correlation without causation studies. Some anti-TP people think that Big Tobacco must be behind the TP and then go look for anything that confirms their hypothesis. Finding anything then confirms their hypothesis. It might be more believable if the TP had been a notable participant in any big tobacco issues. I would be far more likely to believe that the TP was created by Big Oil, but that is just to passe to be of interest by the MSM. Arzel (talk) 17:03, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- agreed, i first heard of the tea party in 2007 and was about income tax. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:41, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- The whole core of the TPM agenda and driving force of the movement is prioritizing less government, lower taxes, lower spending. A reader of this crap-hole attack piece of an article, where every possible piece of negative trivia has been gamed and battled in would think that it is about everything but those things. And a few people have work aggressively and tendentiously to prevent it rising from attack-piece junk status, and people have given up on fixng it. North8000 (talk) 18:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Well, if you can tell that a study is flawed without reading it, then I guess you don't need a copy of it. — goethean 01:22, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Please look up a few lines, I didn't say that. More specifically I said "Sounds like a good idea to see what is in there. It might be good material." North8000 (talk) 02:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- agreed, i first heard of the tea party in 2007 and was about income tax. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:41, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I love these correlation without causation studies. Some anti-TP people think that Big Tobacco must be behind the TP and then go look for anything that confirms their hypothesis. Finding anything then confirms their hypothesis. It might be more believable if the TP had been a notable participant in any big tobacco issues. I would be far more likely to believe that the TP was created by Big Oil, but that is just to passe to be of interest by the MSM. Arzel (talk) 17:03, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'll charitably skip to your second sentence. Sounds like a good idea to see what is in there. It might be good material. North8000 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, I am being more polite and charitable than your comments warrant. No matter, I have already requested through my local public library a copy of the full text of the academic journal article. I suggest that you do the same. — goethean 15:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Why don't you discuss without the baseless personal insults? More specifically:
Most Muslims claim their religion goes back to Adam instead of Mohammad. We do not accept this claim but merely note it and go with outside observation. We have outside academic observation that the Tea Party was created by non-profit groups founded and funded by corporate interests. Per NPOV, unless we find academic sources that present them as being a grassroots movement, we cannot present them as such. I've summarized the findings, and only cited the HuffPost article for verification that Citizens for a Sound Economy (mentioned even in the abstract). I could also cite the source that says the same thing at our article on CoaSE, but this source, which is about the study, is the most appropriate secondary source. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The issue, of course, is that we're not *required* to use any source that comes around, especially if it doesn't pass the smell test. Per WP:V, it seems pretty controversial to add so far, and I would agree with its removal at the moment until we've got more information on it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the whole of the tea party, or even a majority. OR at best, POV pushing more likely. Nonprofit organizations associated with the Tea Party have longstanding ties to tobacco companies is the snippet sniped from the cancer study some unknown blogged about. weasel word alert; associated, ties, is a far cry from the edit you support. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thargor Orlando: Please present any non-Tea Party source finding that the study's conclusions are controversial. We don't do original research, but we do use published original research from peer-reviewed academic journals with editorial oversight ("When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources"). It is nothing but tendentious to deny that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is reliable.
- Darkstar1st: You clearly didn't see the edit I made, please actually know what you're talking about before posting. I only summarized what was in the two source, and gave those two sources only one sentence, so there wasn't an issue of undue weight. I only summarized what was in the sources (including a secondary source giving professional analysis of the article), so there wasn't OR. As the source points out, Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the Tea Party movement as a whole now, but (as is documented in sources here and in the journal article), were responsible for getting the Tea Party movement started. My edit did not say "associated" and "ties", so your application of WP:WEASEL is incorrect at best and false at worst. The Huffington post article did use those words in summarizing parts of the study, but trying to apply WP:WEASEL to outside sources is nothing but Wikilawyering.
- Overall, I'm seeing wikilawyering (bad wikilawyering at that) and tendentious editing in trying to apply BLP to groups, arguing that summarizing published works with no embellishment fails our rules preventing us from doing original research, and arguing that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is anything but the best source for one more way the tobacco industry has affected society. That is the shameful POV-pushing going on here, not my addition. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see a lot of coverage period yet, which should probably tell us something. As it stands, it appears that the link is "Big Tobacco wants to use 3rd party groups, one third party group that agrees with Big Tobacco also agrees with the Tea Party, thus the Tea Party roots are in Big Tobacco." I don't see how that exactly makes a ton of sense, or why it needs to be in this article. We have enough bad sourcing from both sides of the debate in this article to begin with, I fail to see what this adds at this time. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
"Tobacco Control"
Is not a reliable source for making contentious claims about living persons. One eensy indication that it is not a "neutral source" is the bit:
- It is important for tobacco control advocates in the USA and internationally, to anticipate and counter Tea Party opposition to tobacco control policies and ensure that policymakers, the media and the public understand the longstanding connection between the tobacco industry, the Tea Party and its associated organisations.
Sources which make clearly editorial comments are unlikely to meet Misplaced Pages requirements about contentious claims. Collect (talk) 14:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- It has a LOT of problems. An "F" grade source telling us what the "study" says, and it only talking about a tiny piece of the TPM, not the TPM. North8000 (talk) 14:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Here is the website of the academic journal Tobacco Control. It is unquestionably a reliable source of the highest caliber. That the article argues about what is important for tobacco advocates to do or to not do in order to be effective has absolutely no bearing on its status as a reliable source. — goethean 15:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The journal is published by BMJ Group. — goethean 15:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The "study" is based on Google and Wayback - and the journal is not a reliable source on political issues at all -- any more than the JAMA would be a reliable source on economics. No journal is "reliable" when it ventures far outside its actual sphere of expertise. Collect (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- BLP applies to persons, not to movements or organizations. An imprint of the peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted British Medicinal Journal focused on how the Tobacco industry affects society is an RS for issues relating to how the tobacco industry has affected society. Just because we do not use Google archives and Wayback does not prevent peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted academic journals from doing so. It is tendentious to dispute the validity of undeniably reliable sources, and it is wikilawyering to apply the standards for living individuals to unliving (if active) organizations. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's just one of the many problems with that problematic attempted insertion. North8000 (talk) 17:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- As you ignored above, however, WP:V does not require us to use every source available. If the source is generally reliable, but the assertion doesn't really pass the smell test, we don't have to use it. As it stands, I can't tell whether this is a good study or not. I think we should wait until we know whether it is or not. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I was getting to commenting above, and have done so. "We don't have to use it" is meant to prevent original research, not as an excuse for partisan censorship based on bad wikilawyering. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's not narrowed to that one case, and the last two items you listed (" partisan censorship based on bad wikilawyering.") don't exist regarding keeping it out except as you baseless insult/ mis-chacerization. Please quit that crap. Also you violated the 1RR restriction. Let's see if there is any quality stuff in the actual study and stop trying to war in crap from an advocacy blog. North8000 (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I was getting to commenting above, and have done so. "We don't have to use it" is meant to prevent original research, not as an excuse for partisan censorship based on bad wikilawyering. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- BLP applies to persons, not to movements or organizations. An imprint of the peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted British Medicinal Journal focused on how the Tobacco industry affects society is an RS for issues relating to how the tobacco industry has affected society. Just because we do not use Google archives and Wayback does not prevent peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted academic journals from doing so. It is tendentious to dispute the validity of undeniably reliable sources, and it is wikilawyering to apply the standards for living individuals to unliving (if active) organizations. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The "study" is based on Google and Wayback - and the journal is not a reliable source on political issues at all -- any more than the JAMA would be a reliable source on economics. No journal is "reliable" when it ventures far outside its actual sphere of expertise. Collect (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages controversial topics
- All unassessed articles
- C-Class United States articles
- Mid-importance United States articles
- C-Class United States articles of Mid-importance
- WikiProject United States articles
- C-Class politics articles
- Mid-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- C-Class Conservatism articles
- Mid-importance Conservatism articles
- WikiProject Conservatism articles
- C-Class sociology articles
- Low-importance sociology articles
- C-Class social movements task force articles
- Social movements task force articles
- Items with VRTS permission confirmed