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Jazz Stub‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jazz, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of jazz on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JazzWikipedia:WikiProject JazzTemplate:WikiProject JazzJazz Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Songs Stub‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

An {{Infobox song}} has been requested for this article. Please select the appropriate infobox and format it according to the guidelines.

Too much 2000s pop culture?

It seems that this article is lacking in some fundamental substance -- the song is one of America's most recognizable 1930s standards, and half of the article is a list of movies it appears in. It's good that the I-vi-IV-V progression (but isn't it I-vi-ii-V??) gets mentioned, but it seems under-discussed (I think?). I'm not a jazz scholar, but I was under the impression that this progression is often taught as the "Heart and Soul" progression (or "Blue Moon" progression), and that the B-part is typically used as THE example of a circle-of-fifths composition. If so, there should certainly be a bit more music-theory-history mention in there.

Also, the "I love the mountains" lyrics should get their due citation. Does anyone know who wrote them? I think they appear in Girl Scouts songbooks from a few decades ago, and I believe they are also in "Rise Up Singing," but again, I'm not sure. The Discovery Channel ad is not really a parody of "Heart and Soul," but actually a re-writing of "I love the mountains," and yes, I know everyone on WP is just itching to say that there's an XKCD comic that plays off of the Discovery Channel ad, but really that's a play-on-a-rewrite-of-a-rewrite, and getting a little far-removed from the subject at hand.

Any jazz students out there want to lend a hand? --Dgianotti (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Okay, rewrote some of the intro section, but it could still use some work. The "I like the mountains" stuff should go somewhere else. The paragraph on the 1939 charters should really go in the "recorded versions" section, and that section should become less of a massive list. Someone should add a music theory/history section that at least mentions the I-vi-ii-V progression (although I think the A-section is really I-vi-ii-V | I-vi-ii-V | I-VI-II-V | I-VI-II-V ) and the circle of fifths B-section. --Dgianotti (talk) 17:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• And yes, to the horror of XKCD-ians out there, I removed the "internet comics" blurb, because really that has almost nothing to do with "Heart and Soul," but fear not, someone made sure to mention it in the pop culture section of the "I Love the World" article, which is just one click away from this article. --Dgianotti (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

The Incredibles? Where did it show up there? 75.16.63.238 02:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

All piano players?

the article states "Virtually all beginner piano students can play this song". Really? Even in China? This sounds incredibly ethnocentric, not to mention it's unsourced. Joliefille 09:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

They probably can, even in China. It would be more ethnocentric to say "virtually all beginner students in the west can play this song." There is no ethnic or geographic reference at all in the original statement, and no-one would find anything ethnocentric about it unless they were looking really, really hard to find it. Koro Neil (talk) 09:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I would consider it just plain false, not ethnocentric. CheeseDeluxe (talk) 02:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Huey Lewis?

Is this the same Heart and Soul played by Huey Lewis and the News? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.140.218.179 (talk) 06:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• No, the Huey Lewis song is different. We don't currently have an article for the Huey Lewis song, but see Sports (album) for the relevant album. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Beth Orton

Completely different lyrics and rhyming scheme. Beth Orton did "Heart of Soul" - Not Heart and soul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.231.8 (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Debate

There is disagreement over the correct version of the song. Some people, probably purist, believe it should be CADG, while most people play it CAFG. Hoagy Carmichael wrote it as CADG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdmitch16 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• The sheet music I just looked at ( http://popularmelodies.blogspot.com/2009/08/hoagy-carmichael-heart-and-soul-sheet.html ) show it being in the key of F major and being a I-iv-ii-V progression (F-Dmin-Gmin-C). The popular single-hand piano duet taught to children is often played C-Amin-F-G. --Dgianotti (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge

Proposal that Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) be merged into Heart and Soul (1938 song).

WP:NSONGS says, Most songs, it does not say, most recordings, it does not say most covers, it does not say most versions and it certainly doesn't say there are exceptions. It therefore acknowledges one article per SONG. This is further supported by WP:NMUSIC and WP:SONGCOVER and precedent and here's a short list of those I have seen in the past few days where there are two or more notable versions of the same song on the same page: (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, A Groovy Kind of Love, After Midnight (song), All Along the Watchtower, Baby, Please Don't Go, Because the Night, Blue (Bill Mack song), Blue Suede Shoes, Boom Boom (John Lee Hooker song), Can't Help Falling in Love, Dancing Queen, Don't Cry for Me Argentina, Downtown (Petula Clark song), Eloise (Paul Ryan song), Emotion (Samantha Sang song), Feeling Good, Fever (Little Willie John song), Fire (Bruce Springsteen song), Freedom! '90, Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! (A Man After Midnight), Got to Give It Up, Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen song), Harlem Shuffle, Higher Ground (Stevie Wonder song), Hound Dog (song), Hurt (Johnny Cash song), I Heard It Through the Grapevine, I Want Candy, I Want Your Love (Chic song), I Want Your Love (Transvision Vamp song), I Was Born This Way, I Wonder (1944 song), If I Thought You'd Ever Change Your Mind, If Not for You, If You Asked Me To, I'll Be There (The Jackson 5 song), I'll Be Your Baby Tonight, Invisible (Jaded Era song), Iris (Goo Goo Dolls song), It's Raining Men, Jesus Is Just Alright (song), Lady Marmalade, Let's Spend the Night Together, Light My Fire, Little Red Rooster, Love Don't Live Here Anymore, Mamma Mia (song), Me and Mrs. Jones, More, More, More, Mr. Tambourine Man, Not Fade Away (song), Oh, Boy! (song), One of Us (ABBA song), Perfect Day (Lou Reed song), Roll Over Beethoven, Shake, Rattle and Roll, Shame, Shame, Shame (Shirley & Company song), She's Like the Wind, Slow Hand, Somethin' Stupid, Spirit in the Sky, Step by Step (Annie Lennox song), Super Trouper (song), Sway (song), Take a Chance on Me, The First Cut Is the Deepest, The House of the Rising Sun, The Loco-Motion, Theme from Mahogany (Do You Know Where You're Going To), These Boots Are Made for Walkin', Tumbling Dice, Venus (Shocking Blue song), War (Edwin Starr song), When Will I Be Loved (song), White Lines (Don't Don't Do It), Wild Thing (Chip Taylor song), Paint It, Black, You Can't Hurry Love,You Keep Me Hangin' On. Although some have been merged, many have NEVER had separate articles. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, as an initial issue, merging a 1961 topic into a 1938 topic doesn't seem like a good fit. Also, before thinking about your request above, everything to me was "a song" (songs/music is not an area I typically write about, but I just happen to be at the moment). What I previously thought was that if someone sung it, it was a song. After a little reading, I now see what you mean by "a song" topic and version/covers/renditions/rearrangements/etc. subtopics of that song topic. So that we can bypass the merging into a 1938 topic issue and discuss the actual merge proposal, lets first rename Heart and Soul (1938 song). Based on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Songs#Naming, this search, and looking over the Category:FA-Class song articles and the Category:GA-Class song articles, I think the name Heart and Soul (Carmichael and Loesser song) would be a good choice. If you agree, we'll be bold and move it and continue the merge discussion. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 13:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

According to WP guidelines and precedent the name should be Heart and Soul (Larry Clinton song), which doesn't excite me in the least. I see your objection to 1938 song, but that is the year of creation and many older songs are disambiguated that way. I do like disambiguation by writer, but there are objections to this (imagine a song with 7 writers!). So, all in all, I must say I prefer the present title, but would not object to a move, including your suggestion. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

How a song is stylised is totally irrelevant. If you or I don't merge it it's bottom dollar somebody else will. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

A rule that all song rendition subtopics must be treated only in the song topic article and "never in a separate article" goes against how Misplaced Pages generally treats topics. For example, Misplaced Pages:Summary style supports fuller treatment of any major subtopic in a separate article of its own. I looked through some of the song articles you cited. A reason that the subtopic song versions detailed in the above cited song articles is because none of them have enough reliable sourced material to warrant a reasonably detailed article. Can you explain why WikiProject Songs has an absolute ban on a song rendition subtopic being treated in a separate article of its own? -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Simple. An article about a song is about THAT song (And certainly not about a recording of that song!) the aricle would include information about the music, the lyrics, the writing and recording history. There is no benefit to separating except under WP:SIZE. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

So why haven't you proposed to merge Somewhere over the Rainbow/What a Wonderful World mentioned at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Songs into Somewhere_Over_The_Rainbow#Israel_Kamakawiwo.27ole_version? -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 06:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Because it is a medley and that creates something different. Not that I necessarily approve of separate articles for medleys, but that's the consensus! I don't understand your objection, I am not asking for anything to be deleted, quite the opposite, I am asking for all the information about the song to be in one place (although much of the stuff about the Cleftones should be moved to their article). BTW There are numerous examples above where 2 or more versions are extremely notable. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm at a loss here, Uzma. Heart and Soul (1938 song) is a tiny article. This article and that one are the very kind of articles that WP:SONGCOVER is trying to avoid. On the one hand, you've built a nice article about the Cleftones version, but you claim that it isn't the same song, that it simply shares the name with the original. On the other hand, we have an article about the original song which barely contains any information about one of the most popular renditions. What's the point in having two incomplete articles when we could have one good one?—Kww(talk) 19:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

For reference, a merged version would look about like this.—Kww(talk) 23:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Kww, that looks great, an improvement on both articles. Irrespective of which version brought the reader to the page, the whole history is in front of the reader. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:13, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Kww - Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) meets the Misplaced Pages guideline Recordings and the Misplaced Pages guideline WP:NSONG, so there's no reason to override the Misplaced Pages guideline with WikiProject WP:SONGCOVER, particularly when WP:NSONG gives express instructions for merge targets, none of which is an omnibus song article. When the relevant literature wrote about The Cleftones' cover song Heart and Soul, they did not write about the music composition effort of Hoagy Carmichael or the lyrics effort of Frank Loesser. Rather, they wrote about the efforts of those working with The Cleftones to create the cover song and the impact and effects the cover song had after the cover song was created and released. Merging the information from Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) into Heart and Soul (1938 song) would remove the cover song subject from the context in which the reliable sources wrote about The Cleftones' cover song. Also, merging the information from Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) into Heart and Soul (1938 song) would not provide a representative survey of the relevant literature because much of the information provided by the relevant literature is pertinent to Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) but is not pertinent to Heart and Soul (1938 song). In other words, fuller treatment details provided in the Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) article would be unnecessary details in the Heart and Soul (1938 song) article topic. The proposed merge would leave the encyclopedia with a redirect and either a widely imbalanced, unfocused Heart and Soul (1938 song) article or an article in which information about The Cleftones Heart and Soul cover song is lost from Misplaced Pages. There is no reason to merge since editors can use summary style in the Heart and Soul (1938 song) article to add information about the cover song to the Heart and Soul (1938 song) article. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:19, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It's the same song, Uzma. Your own sources discuss that the Cleftones song was a rework of the earlier piece. It's keeping that separate that destroys context. All ] did was document best practice. There's nothing "wildy imbalanced" about the merged article: it covers the Cleftones and Jan and Dean version a little heavily, but not ridiculously so.—Kww(talk) 14:32, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

You are avoiding addressing my specific arguments regarding Misplaced Pages guideline and do not cite any Misplaced Pages policy or guideline to support your position. Your claim that the main topic of each or any reliable sources cited in Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) is of the cover song being a rework of the earlier piece is not based on fact (you can conclude this by reading the sources via the links provided in the Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) article). You do not explain what you mean by the "same song". Merely because the original song and the cover song have a music composer and the lyrics writer in common does not mean that the Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) topic is the same topic as the Heart and Soul (1938 song) topic. Sources for the Heart and Soul (1938 song) omnibus article are the ones whose main topic discuss the Heart and Soul song in the collective - sources that discuss the Heart and Soul efforts of Carmichael and Loesser, Larry Clinton, The Cleftones, Jan and Dean, etc. as a connected effort. The reliable sources used in Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) are specific to The Cleftones' Heart and Soul cover song topic. Can you cite even one reliable source used in the Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) article having a main topic directed towards the connection of The Cleftones' cover song to the Heart and Soul omnibus song topic? Along with no Misplaced Pages policy basis to merge Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) into Heart and Soul (1938 song), you have not provided any reliable source basis to merge Heart and Soul (The Cleftones) into Heart and Soul (1938 song). As for best practice, best content practice is contained in Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines regarding content, not in a WikiProject interpretation for which only a few editors actively try to use to bypass policy and guideline content practice. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 11:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

You wrote on in the article for the Cleftones version, "The groups manager George Goldner additionally convinced the group that their future resided in re-recording existing songs that already had an established popularity. By this time, Charles James had become more proficient on the guitar, and the group and Goldner used that to develop an arrangement for the 1938 romantic-pop music standard Heart and Soul" My bold.

However, your arguments above are contrary to what your words in the article say. Carmichael and Loesser wrote the song, without them there would not be ANY version by ANYBODY. Who wrote and recorded the song is part of the history of the song, why segregate because there was a bit of plastic in 1961? We are writing about songs, not bits of plastic. You have dragged this argument everywhere, from Jimbo, to CfD for Category:Songs by songwriter because you didn't understand WHO wrote the song, to DRV on non-existant articles, notability, MfD and probably elsewhere. The majority of editors do not support you, you have ignored the recommendation how to further pursue your case, so perhaps it's time to merge per kww and move on? --Richhoncho (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

1. Jay Warner (2006), American Singing Groups: A History from 1940s to Today, Hal Leonard Corporation, p. 119, ISBN 0634099787, retrieved February 2, 2013 {{citation}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)

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