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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Syrian civil war (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• DIREKTOR (talk · contribs)
• FunkMonk (talk · contribs)
• Lothar von Richthofen (talk · contribs)
• Zombiecapper (talk · contribs)
• Futuretrillionaire (talk · contribs)
• Sopher99 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

No change perceived as having a negative impact on the rebel cause can be entered into the article. Being the graphic depiction of the conflict, the infobox is the focus of the WP:STONEWALLING:

• Israel, in spite of sources explicitly stating its involvement in the conflict, cannot be entered into the box. A graphic representation of Israeli military actions against the Assad faction would obviously cast a bad light on the rebels.
• In spite of their fighting both the rebels and the government in this conflict, the Kurds must be kept on the rebel side in the box.
• Similarly, non-combatants like Saudi Arabia and Qatar must also be listed in the rebel column, not once - but twice.

In short, combatants shelling and bombing in Syrian territory are excluded, while non-combatants are included for the rebels. Kurds fighting the rebels are kept in the rebels' column. The inclusion of huge, pointless lists of "sinister" Syrian government agencies also cannot be amended. The POV is so thick one can barely see the article.

The cornucopia of ever-changing, irrelevant "excuses" is also a thing of wonder. Arbitrary declarations of supposed "undue weight" and proclamations regarding the Kurds' "true allies" abound. Misleading "precedents" were brought forth as well, articles on wars with four or five or six warring sides which always use a simplified two-column infobox out of necessity (the template only provides for three columns) - but all three-sided conflicts like the Syrian civil war naturally use three columns. All of these essentially appear to be without significance, as none have any impact on the simple fact that the Kurdish faction, fighting rebels(!), is listed in the rebels' column; or that Israel is sourced as a side-combatant in the conflict. -- Director (talk) 14:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A couple ultimately-pointless RfCs. On the first occasion the consensus was clearly in favor of amending the infobox (9 users in support, 3 opposed), but participants were simply edit-warred into the ground (primarily by Sopher99). Most recently, frustrated users posted a second RfC which unfortunately garnered input from only three users, two of whom (Knowledgekid87, Zombiecapper) supported the stonewalled amendments. -- Director (talk) 14:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

How do you think we can help?

Uninvolved input on the three main issues would be appreciated. -- Director (talk) 14:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by FunkMonk

Opening comments by Lothar von Richthofen

Previous Kurd/PYD-related discussions: Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_15#RV_Kurdish_from_infobox, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_16#PKK-PYD, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_16#Assad.2FAnti-Assad_forces (note FT's position), Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_17#Third_row_for_Kurds, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_17#"Opposition", Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#kurds_(third_column?), Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#Kurds_as_combatant_#3_again, Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_18#fourth_column, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive778#Organized_edit-warring

Will post statement later. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

WRT the first point (Israel), I'm not terribly invested in it. I think it does merit a mention in the infobox, but I'm not sure how best to represent it. The airstrike is really the main event Israel has had a part in, otherwise we're just talking about shooting whoever is firing artillery westwards so carelessly as to land shells in the occupied Golan (the army, generally speaking—just how the geographic orientation of combat there plays out) and beefing up border security to keep Islamist rebels out.

The second point is far more important in my mind. The PYD (one Kurdish group linked to the PKK—neither "PKK" nor "Kurds" broadly construed) fights rebels (Battle of Ras al-Ayn) at least as often as it does the government (). I absolutely and categorically reject any attempt to make this out to be a matter of "undue weight" (explained in detail here)—this is a question of factual accuracy, plain and simple.

As for noncombatants, previous consensus at this RfM permitted them, though the more I think about it, the more useless their presence seems to me. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Zombiecapper

Firstly, thank you Director for finally initiating these proceedings.

The current combatant configuration of the info box should remain as two columns.

Unlike other preceding Misplaced Pages civil war articles, the anti-assad factions are extremely fractured. There is no clear governing structure. Although all the factions have one key objective - to overthrow the Assad regime.

If we were to grant the PYD an individual column, a precedent would then be set to provide other (SNC non-aligned) factions autonomy, by way of providing them with their own column. We could easily end up with four or five combatants, I am sure everyone agrees that would be hopeless.

To the extent of what this civil war is about....it is a battle between two different options...two different paths for the Syrian people. One path leads to a continuation of the neo-baathist Assad republic or two a "Absent Assad non neo-baathist republic."

Therefore, I submit that we have the following combatant titles (bold and break-line, absent of flag and/or insignia): Government (Representing the Assad government and their allies) and Insurgents or Anti-Assad Forces (with all the factions/insignia listed directly below in order of political and military influence within that camp).

On the subject of Israel, currently the air strike has not yet been acknowledged...the Israelis governments intentions, all though strongly suspected, remain to be confirmed by senior leaders. It should not yet hold a place in the info box. User talk:Zombiecapper.

Opening comments by Futuretrillionaire

So I guess the rfc failed and one of the parties decided open up this. Anyways, the current infobox in the article is based on the model used in articles such as Iraq War, Mexican Drug War, and War on Terror, in which the government and its supporters are put in one column and the insurgents/irregulars are put in the other, with a note included that indicates that there is also fighting between insurgent groups. The Kurds have played a very minor role in the conflict, and there is no source defining the scope of this civil war as a 3-way battle. Therefore, giving a 3rd column for the Kurds is completely undue weight. I don't see any problems with the current model, and I don't see any need to screw it up.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources like this ("Both sides committing war crimes in Syria") clearly indicate that there are two sides in this conflict, not three. The arguments for a 3rd column are based on WP:OR, and not backed by reliable sources.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by Sopher99

The infobox Should remain as two columns. Adding a third row is undue weight as the civil war is beyond overwhelmingly a battle between the opposition and the government (in casualties, combatant numbers, territory, and reliable sources). There is a not a single reliable media source describing this as a three way fight. The PYD leader in fact has described the Kurdish factions as being friendly with the FSA. Sopher99 (talk) 19:12, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

We already have the solution of putting a double line between the rebels and the Kurds, plus a note linking to the Kurdistan conflict. If this doesn't satisfy, then it is best to keep the kurds out of the infobox and elaborate on them in the article. Sopher99 (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

On the subject of Israel, it should not be added anymore than Lebanon/Jordan/Turkey all of which has several casualties but are not considered combatants in the civil war. Mainly because they are not fighting eachother. They are participants in incidental events, not belligerents. Sopher99 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by EllsworthSK

Frankly, I am not really sure what is this about. Is this about Kurds in third column or about infobox in general as listed in dispute overview? I´ll take a shot with later and make these points
1, Israel shelled also FSA position in Golan, in response to that FSA released a statement warning Israel from meddling into Syrian affairs listing them as combatant on side of rebels is POV of POVs since no direct support was ever proven and is only propagated by Iran and Syrian gov
2, Frankly, sticking the support countries in the infobox seems counter-productive to me, especially given that we don´t know if support which goes to jihadists in Syria is from Gulf private donors or Gulf government (KSA, Qatar). Also listing countries twice, I don´t see much point in it. If it was up to me I´d remove it outright and keep it in the article only.
3, Unnecessary many combatants under government section. Agreed - would keep only army, Shabiha and foreign militants. Lijan militias are widely unreported and unknown, Jays al-Shabi was first heard from US government and that´s that, mukhabarat is not direct combatant etc. As for Iran, from what I read their main role is in support, logistic and training not in direct combat. Remove or move to support section.
4,Kurds - well I can see it from both sides and I don´t think that any of them is explicitly wrong. There are many aspects and I am really on line in this case. I will just simply stick with a consensus. EllsworthSK (talk) 18:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Syrian civil war discussion

There seems to be some very clear POV pushing with this dispute. The best way to solve this dispute is to take the issues one at a time.

First Issue

The first issue we'll solve is

• Israel, in spite of sources explicitly stating its involvement in the conflict, cannot be entered into the box.

I perceive this dispute to be to determine weather we can verify from a reliable source that Israel is militarily involved in the conflict. For this:

• Please provide the most reliable sources to verify that "Israel" is militarily involved in the conflict. You can also include sources which verify Israels involvement.

Please comment below weather you think my understanding of the issue is correct and if you agree to solving this issue this way.

• DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) Agree -- Director (talk) 09:13, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
• FunkMonk (talk · contribs)Agree. FunkMonk (talk) 09:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
• Lothar von Richthofen (talk · contribs)Agree/Disagree sign your name
• Zombiecapper (talk · contribs)Agree/Disagree sign your name
• Futuretrillionaire (talk · contribs)Agree --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:51, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
• Sopher99 (talk · contribs)Agree/Disagree sign your name

Another thing I note is that the "commanders and leaders" box seems to be overcrowded, I should include the the highest commander/leader from each Belligerents Eng.Bandara (talk) 01:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me say first off that noone is contending Israel is one of the main combatants in this conflict (that's a straw man), merely that it warrants inclusion as a marginal combatant, which is imo beyond debate. After several border artillery exchanges, Israel had launched (either one or two) air strikes against targets in Syria. This is nothing spectacular, but its a military conflict and warrants mention in the military conflict infobox - particularly one where non-combatants like Qatar and Saudi Arabia are listed twice. Turkey's involvement, for example, is comparable to that of Israel, with minor border clashes and shelling.

In my opinion, mere confirmation of a country's military involvement warrants inclusion in the relevant infobox in and of itself. However, even if we raise the bar, in addition to the said (undisputed) military involvement, respectable mainstream news agencies in Israel and the US (not to speak of Syria, Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc.) do explicitly interpret these events as Israel's involvement in the war:

• NBC News: "Israel drawn into Syria conflict, fires missile across border"
• Los Angeles Times: "With airstrike, Israel steps into Syria conflict"
• Wall Street Journal: "A strike draws Israel further into Syria's conflict.."
• Haaretz: "Israel enters the civil war in Syria"
• The Telegraph: "Israel 'considering further air strikes on Syria'"
• Financial Times: "Israel might convince itself that further military strikes are necessary."

etc.. The proposal is to enter Israel in the infobox, clearly denoting its non-association with any other warring parties (via the usual horizontal dividing line). -- Director (talk) 08:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and please note both FunkMonk ("your Assad dictatorship propagandizing will fail!") and myself ("YOU ARE BROKEN. WE ARE LEGION.") have been harassed on our talkpages over this thread. -- Director (talk) 08:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I would encourage you in that case to sign your agreement in the section Eng has set for all parties. From looking at the previous disputes I can see this is a hot topic with many strong opinions involved. There is literally tens of thousands of words on talk pages and discussions about this and related topics so lets try keep things brief if possible. I would encourage all parties involved to take a read of WP:TIGER and continue the levelheaded discussion that persisted so far. Cabe6403 09:02, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

No, Turkey cannot be compared to Israel. First, Turkey is in support section because it supports rebels. For a long time it hosted FSA HQ (symbolical HQ but still closest thing to HQ there was), it gives shelter to Syrian rebels and defectors and supports opposition with both arms and money. Border shelling are minor incident that have no weight in the infobox and Turkey was there before that happened. So far I´ve seen no reports about Israel arming rebels or giving them safe passage through Golan or providing C2 support. Listing Israel as combatant, and above that on side of rebels who are anything but Israel-friendly, is POV. EllsworthSK (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

That is the {{Infobox military conflict}} template. Its about military conflict. Its not about political or logistical support. When I say Turkey's role is "comparable to Israel" - I'm referring to the military involvement of Turkish armed forces (border clashes). If we had a situation where Israel was, in fact "arming rebels or giving them safe passage through Golan etc." - but without the military involvement of Israel, I would not support the inclusion of Israel. Especially when we've got an entire separate article devoted to precisely that kind of foreign support - with a note in the infobox pointing the reader towards it. Again I stress the infobox is about military conflict, nothing else. If we, contrary to sources(!), selectively omit and add factions regardless of their military involvement, we are creating a POV picture of the conflict. -- Director (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

1, What FunkMonk wrote

2, Infobox lists also non-military participants as was established in many articles before (like Vietnam war or Korean war). Participants in military conflict which significantly helped shift the conflict one way or another by either direct military help or indirect - support. Israel falls in none of these criteria and again - Turkey was in infobox before cross-border shelling.

3, Israeli airstrike was not part of the ongoing military conflict, it was not response to either Syrian army offensive against rebels or vice versa, it was simply prevention of arms reaching third-state actor (Hezbollah). It is separate WP:EVENT. EllsworthSK (talk) 15:12, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

None of the sources provided by DIREKTOR defines Israel as a combatant in the conflict. They only vaguely say it's somehow more involved than before. All of them refer to one incident, and now are probably outdated. Israel itself has said that its policy is not to get involved in the Syrian conflict.. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

1. Wow. :) Now that's really "raising the bar". I guess "Israel enters the civil war in Syria" is unclear and misleading. We should find a source that says "Yes, we define Israel as a combatant in the Syrian civil war". Then we'll probably need to find one that says "yes, we most definitely define Israel as a combatant"...

The bare fact that Israel and Syrian factions have engaged in border clashes and air strikes is sufficient cause for inclusion. Sources provided in support of that fact should suffice alone. Additional sources that explicitly (and irrefutably) state Israel has entered this conflict should serve merely as the final confirmation that ends all debate. Here, amazingly, even the latter are rejected by you fine gentlemen. All I can say is.. wow.

2. Just... no. We simply do not require that combatants "help shift the conflict one way or another" before we include them in the infobox. What matters is if they're combatants. I don't have to go beyond World War II and World War I, but frankly I consider it kind of beneath me to even respond to this seriously, say with some extensive list of the dozens of mc infoboxes that include combatants who's involvement did not "shift the conflict one way or another". And, of course, the infobox guide itself states that the parameter is for "countries whose forces took part in the conflict". You're just inventing your own custom criteria at this point.

3. The sources say otherwise. And the idea that they somehow don't, to me seems pretty laughable. This isn't really "point #3", its essentially point #1 repeated.

And so it goes on. Red herrings, straw men and just plain wrong claims... -- Director (talk) 19:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Lets take this one issue at a time please, Israel first. It is quite clear that this issue is highly sensitive, However I'm encouraged by the level of POV pushing has seemed to have reduced. There seems to be some misunderstanding about what countries to be included in the info-box. From what I am seeing form the above dialog is:

• Whether the 'involvement' has to make a major shift in the combat theater
• Whether the 'involvement' has to take a particular side in the combat
• Whether the 'involvement' has to be purely militarily or is 'logistics and supply' sufficient to warrant inclusion

After studying articles from other civil conflicts, and my own logical thinking, it is of my opinion that.

• The main policy for inclusion is based on militarily action during the conflict
• The involvement does not have to make a major shift in the combat outcome
• "logistics and supply" involvement is not sufficient to warrant inclusion
• Taking a particular side in the conflict is irrelevant to whether it should be included, however where to include it may need to be discussed

The sources the user has posted above are good and satisfy WP verifiability policy. Based on these I find

• Israel has a clear militarily involvement in the conflict, regardless of whether its a full drawn out involvement to the end
• It is not clear, as to which side Israeli military action was targeted against, going by the source it simply states "Syria" So I'd assume its against the Syrian government.

If editors can agree to work out the following questions we can decide where to include Israel.

• If Israeli is action was directed towards a particular side then list it under the opposing side. The info box is based purely on militarily action, it does not require to have a political affiliation with that side
• If Israeli action was directed towards both sides, it should be listed on a third column.

Lastly it would greatly help if everyone focused on these issues, so we can take this one at a time. Eng.Bandara (talk) 21:09, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

No. Israel did not attack either side in the civil war. It attacked an arms shipment going to Hezbollah. Isreal is involved in the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, not the Syria conflict. Israel attacking Hezbollah is nothing unusual and has happened before the Syrian civil war even began. I repeat Isreal itself denies being involved in the Syria conflict. It has said its policy is not to get involved in the Syrian conflict.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

states "With the attack in Syria, Israel took its first overt military step into the "Arab Spring" .... But whether by intent or circumstance, Israel has inserted itself into a civil war that thus far had very little to do with it". Going by this I'm happy to justify Israel into a third column. Again I emphasize this military involvement not political. Israel may have policy of non political involvement, however by attacking it is involved regardless of weather its politically involved or not. Eng.Bandara (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to stack the infobox with combatants. Countries that had both minimal and short term engagements can be elaborated on in the article, and not the infobox. The Infobox is not an encyclopedia which holds every single detail to the point where it gets controversially absurd. There is no rule that the infobox has to have every "combatant" particularly if there are major arguments against identifying them as a combatant. Sopher99 (talk) 22:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Second of all if Israel is taking its first step into the Arab spring, that is directly saying Israel is taking its first step into political issues. It does not mean its an official combatant. Sopher99 (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Military involvement does not mean its a combatant, combat (Noun; Fighting between armed forces) is what determines a combatant (notice the "combat" in combatant. Israel and Syria are not fighting each-other). Sopher99 (talk) 22:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree we don't have to list combatants with 'minimal to short term engagements' with the principal of maintaining clarity. However in case of this conflict as there are not many military actors, it wouldn't hurt to list Israel, when it is clear that Israel had in fact lunched military attacks into Syria, engaging itself in the civil war. I am satisfied that Israel meets the criteria to be listed as a Belligerents in this conflict. Eng.Bandara (talk) 22:48, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, the proposal is to include Israel as a seperate combatant (1a), and divided with a horizontal line. -- Director (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes that is correct, However I would like some responses from the other members, instead of just staying quite if you don't have any disagreement. Eng.Bandara (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

The source you quoted said 'Israel has inserted itself into a civil war' - this becomes 'it is clear that Israel had in fact lunched military attacks into Syria, engaging itself in the civil war.' -- are they homologous terms? 'inserted' and 'engaged'? - just saying because one has to watch for pov pushing. to me they suggest different types of thing, those words Sayerslle (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Israel only launched an attack on a weapon depot that was going to be sent to Hezbollah,israeli involvement is minimal ,and it doesn't favor both sides especially the rebels. Abdo45 (talk) 22:46, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It would help if you addressed the issues with the inclusion parameters we discussed above. Otherwise this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere, I'll wait another 48 hours if flow of discussion is still being constantly derailed, I will mark for closure as unable to reach consensus. I would suggest formal mediation as a next step. Eng.Bandara (talk) 23:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much Eng.Bandara for your efforts to resolve this dispute logically, peaceably, and with a neutral perspective. I've only contributed occasionally to this article but have been following this discussion. I wasn't convinced by either side but I think the guidelines you've set down are appropriate in this case. -Darouet (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC) I have struck my previous comments. -Darouet (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

...aaand our "volunteer" friend turns out to be a sock. What a surprise. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:16, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

It kind of is, actually... :) -- Director (talk) 12:30, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

You're telling me there's nothing fishy about a guy who makes a beeline for DRN in less than 20 edits 5 hours after registering? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Particularly the fact that the Eng.Bandara came to you Direktor and only you "for help" with the sock issue? Not to mention that you both are big in editing Sri Lanka related articles? Sopher99 (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

@Lothar. I didn't check his contribs (why would I?).. hence - pretty surprised. Of course, from the point he was reported I realized he was probably a sock, but not before.

@Sopher99. Laughing out loud. There must be something vewy fishy here, must there, Sopher? Actually, I never edited any even relmotely Sri Lanka-related article or topic but once in my entire 7-year, 45,000-edit activity on this project. And that was a couple days ago when Eng.Bandara asked me to participate in an RfC. So I did, briefly. With one post. When the user asked me to somehow help him with his sock accusation, I said "I have no idea whether or not you're a sock" , and refused to participate. Not that it would make any difference whatsoever whether I did or didn't (checkuser rarely makes mistakes). -- Director (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

How about we just accept that he almost certainly is a sock? It seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether we need to start over. We seem to be mostly in agreement that that's not necessary, so I suggest we simply drop it and go on from where we left off. CarrieVS (talk) 13:32, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Striking that last bit. It did look that way to me, though I explained it poorly - what I meant was that (until now) I hadn't seen any clear suggestion that anyone had a problem with Eng.Bandara's actual input, and it looked (and still does) to me as though a general agreement was reached not to simply strike his comments on principle - they've now stayed un-struck for nearly two days, after the editor who struck them self-reverted. But in any case what I meant by "drop it" was the discussion immediately above about how obvious it was or wasn't that he was a sock; if anyone has any problem with Eng.Bandara's mediation (and now someone has said that they do), then I am certainly not suggesting that that be ignored. CarrieVS (talk) 19:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

That is disgusting! I thought these people were supposed to be professionals? I'm sorry that this has happened to you all.-Darouet (talk) 15:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• Israel has attacked and killed Syrian forces at least two times, perhaps three. One time near the Golan last year, then the facility this year, and perhaps also a convoy. So no, there isn't only one single incident. FunkMonk (talk) 18:28, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't mean he won't say it was "one incident" another fifteen times. Must have told the guy about as often. -- Director (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The Golan incident was not an aggressive action, it was a response to army gunners with shitty aim. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

False dichotomy. It was responding to army gunners with shitty aim with aggressive action. Its kind of like the aforementioned "they weren't bombing the Syrian army, they were just stopping arms shipments to Hezbollah".

And please lets leave the discussion legible? Can we tone down the POV that much? -- Director (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

CarrieVS makes the assertion that there is general "agreement" to continue from the point that Eng.Bandara left off. But just from the edit-warring over whether to strike his comments, it seems to me that that is an ill-advised assertion. I propose a simple straw poll to gauge this. For those parties participating in the mediation, are you satisfied with Eng.Bandara's mediation, or do you want to start over? A simple satisfied or not satisfied with at most a sentence of explanation will suffice. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not satisfied - Biased editor. He didn't lead the dispute even close to a resolution.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oh what's the use.. Eng.Bandara more-or-less came out in support of adding Israel. Naturally everyone supporting the addition will say he's "Satisfied" whereas everyone against will claim "Not satisfied" and try to "strike from the record" anything he said or did. I myself liked his approach, particularly his points above.. of course, that's all (quote) "Assad propagandizing" and must be opposed at all costs.

P.s. I have no idea how you've concluded the sock was "biased" on this issue, Futuretrillionaire, but at this point I'm getting used to random statements.. The reason he couldn't bring the dispute closer to resolution is simply because it cannot be resolved through general agreement. No matter what anyone says or does Sopher will oppose the addition of Israel to the infobox, and so will presumably Futuretrillionaire.

I myself follow a simple rule from the infobox guide and generally adhered-to throughout Wiki: "add countries whose armed forces took part in the conflict". The rest I see as POV-pushing ("its not really a conflict", "its not really taking part in", "its not really armed forces", "its not really a country", etc..). -- Director (talk) 22:06, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Is it the rule to add countries however glancing and tangential and miniscule their 'taking part in the conflict'? is there a problem of UNDUE WEIGHT at all. since the strike , which was reported widely in RS as targeting stuff israel feared was Hezbollah bound, it seems nothing has happened on the Zionist front. is undue weight an issue at all? just asking. its not "add countries who's..." btw- the apostrophe indicates a letter is missing - it is short for 'who is' what you've written Sayerslle (talk) 23:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

No. Its the rule to follow published sources and not give a damn about what random internet users think is "tangetial", "miniscule" or "undue". I believe its called WP:V.

Hezbollah is an ally of Assad in this conflict. But even if it were not, it is not up to us to interpret primary sources such as Israeli public statements and claims. Israel may or may not have actually been targeting Hezbollah (in flying over the sovereign territory of two countries and attacking the military of the latter), that's up to sources to confirm, but either way it is not up you to decide whether or not these events are a part of the Syrian war. I'll thank you not to bore others and myself with your personal OR anymore. (Also thanks so much for the grammar lesson; very amusing.) -- Director (talk) 05:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

THIS DR/N DISCUSSION IS ON HOLD UNTIL ALL INVOLVED PARTIES AGREE TO MOVE FORWARD!

The original volunteer has been blocked for sockpuppetry. A request has been made for all parties to decide on whether to start this filing over. The discussion cannot continue until a decision has been made.

I myself don't believe there is much chance participants will agree on anything. What is required is additional uninvolved input to form a consensus on the three issues. -- Director (talk) 09:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Based on the above and the lack of participation in regards to deciding to move forward or stop, I will be closing this case in 24 hrs unless all participants weigh in on the matter. I will not close as resolved or failed.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Hungarian people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Csendesmark (talk · contribs)
• Iadrian yu (talk · contribs)
• User-multi error: no username detected (help).

Dispute overview

A Romanian editor wants to remove pictures which are taken in ex, now not Hungarian territories It's started with a puppet edit user:Electrifier1999, after a semi-page-protection

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We had an unsuccessfully discuss on the talk page

How do you think we can help?

Restoring the original state of the page

Opening comments by Iadrian yu

I disagree that this was discussed. If one comment is a discussion...and that comment is confusing because it is not related to the problem , talk page, while ignoring everything on the talk page. I will respond by numbers for better readability.

• 1) I started this section several days ago(February 19), not the sock puppet (first comment of the sock on February 24), the sock puppet did`t participated in the discussion simply because he left only one comment and we ignored him.
• 2) Is it important that I am a Romanian editor? Should that affect this problem in any way? How did you concluded that I am a Romanian editor?
• 3) There are several images of places outside Hungary. This pictures are nothing special, some images of Churches, a simple panorama of a village with Hungarian majority and etc..
  • I stated on the talk page, if we have a simple image of a Hungarian village outside Hungary should we add all one million Hungarian villages to the gallery? What makes that one random village special to be added to the gallery?
  • All Catholic Churches build under Hungarian administration? Don`t forget that the Kingdom of Hungary was a multi-ethnic state, if it was constructed under Hungarian administration it is not necessarily Hungarian.
  • Gothic church of Košice, Slovakia - According to the researchers the town had a German majority until the mid-16th century - so why would this be on Hungarian people article? It would rather go on Germans if anywhere.
• 4)The article is about Hungarian people, I fail to see the connection in this images with the article except that it may be used as POV pushing because I compared all other articles on wikipedia about ethnic groups and none of them contained images of random places outside that country. Ex: (Serbs (have a lot of places inhabited by them in Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia and yet not a singe image of them here), Poles, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Germans, Italians, Slovenes, Austrians, Ukrainians, French people, Macedonians (ethnic group).. you name it...). I don`t see why should we have it here? Except if it is something special, that is attributed only to the Hungarian people. As the folklore and traditions which images I have left on the article. Adrian (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Answers by CsendesMark

(I gave numbers to your other questions too, please forgive me that, but it was easier to answer that way)

• 1) Yes, you started on the talk page, and you've been already caught and much more times been accused of having puppets.
• User_talk:Iadrian_yu/Archive_April,2010#March_2010

your first indef ban You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abusing multiple accounts to feign consensus at AFD

• User_talk:Iadrian_yu/Archive_May,2012#Sockpuppetry_case

• 2) This time? Maybe.... I don't know yet...

But what I know: You have vandalized multiple articles which concern Hungarian persons/nobilities (your personal favorite is clearly John Hunyadi, last try is in this month February_2013) , or other Hungarian related facts (Iadrian_yu's "contributions"), which didn't fit your agenda, like this article about Hungarian people

• User_talk:Iadrian_yu/Archive_May,2010#3RR_warning

I am not saying you're totally unconstructive, but you really do a lot of trouble for us, and you're putting an awful lot of effort into enforcing your POV over Hungarian-related articles (one way or an other).

• 3) It's not your job to decide what is special, those pictures there are, because they represent part of the Hungarian culture which is spirit of the people.

• You also didn't remove other pictures which show other buildings still standing in Hungarian land. And you deleted those which are standing where Hungarians live, even though all of them were part of the Hungarian state before 1920.

• 4) Redundant statement, but: Yes you started one, then a "mysterious stranger" came and acted just as you wrote in the Talk section.
• 5) The two bigger churches which I can recognize: Yes

St. Elisabeth Cathedral's construction began under the rule of king Louis I the Great 1378 and the church was named after St. Elizabeth of Hungary

St. Michael's Church's construction began under the rule of king Charles I of Hungary 1316

But in fact, Romanians belong to the Orthodox church, they haven't really built anything else.

• 6) Yes you failed to see that, Hungarians aren't ....Serbs, Poles, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Germans, Italians, Slovenes, Austrians, Ukrainians, French people, Macedonians (ethnic group).. you name it...

Csendesmark (talk) 00:19, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Answers by Iadrian_yu(Adrian)

I will answer by your numbers.

• 1) Before doping ridiculous accusations on me please investigate a bit, because you are not credible in this way.
  • In March 2010 I was blocked for edit warring, yes I was a new user and I did`t know how to conduct myself. That was in 2010! My last block was in May 6, 2010! Three years ago therefore I don`t see this related except that you dig this up all this in bad faith since you clearly did`t read them, just dropped here.
    • About the sockpuppet , I was blocked by jpgordon::==( o ) 15:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC) for socket puppetry, but if you analyze it first you see it was a mistake, at the time there wasn`t even a sock case against me. Take a look at my block log AGAIN, 16:55, March 18, 2010 Scientizzle (talk | contribs) unblocked Iadrian yu (talk | contribs) (looks like a mixup...) - and if you take a look at the discussion you will see everything. Several editors noticed that it was a mistake since they were looking for someone from Pakistan. Don`t know why did you bring this up when it was clearly a mistake?
    • About this , I don`t know why this user started this thread in HurricaneFan25 19:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC), but the case was accepted and I was cleared as a normal user. Now this is the second time you proceed with personal attacks based on nothing second time, please read WP:NPA and try not to attack me again personally and keep to the subject YOU opened here.

• 2) If you have a problem with Romanian users I am sorry, I can`t help you there but you should try to keep your personal stuff out of this.
  • You obviously choose not to see and present half-facts as a genuine data. My latest "vandalism" (another personal attack from your side?) was the removal of strange comment and I got a warning, but please read it well before making another unsourced accusation about me read it please.
  • My "agenda" is editing articles and correcting whenever I see something strange. It is always nice to see a warning from 2010 about me. WP:LETITGO ? That is so recent I don`t know what to say anymore.

• 3) It is our job to improve articles, and if you looked, you notice that ANY other article about ethnic groups don`t contain this kind of pictures. According to other examples on wikipedia, it is more than obvious that there is something wrong here. Please try to find the "Hungarian spirit" in the people, not on some random buildings that are nothing special to the Hungarians, just a random village, random place?
  • Yes, it is interesting how something was a part of the Hungarian state 100 years ago.. Should we add on the Ottoman people (Turkish) all places under Otoman Empire? Or French Empire? Or maybe the Germany in the World War II, the territories they annexed? You name it.. I have left the building in Hungary because they are in Hungary, simple as that.

• 4) I don`t see how can this be redundant because it proves that those places are present at the article without any valid logic, except that they was a part of Hungary 100 years ago?

• 5) So then why add only those 2 Churches? Let`s add all 1 million of them that was constructed under Hungarian administration? I think Slovakians are Catholic too. Don`t forget that the Kingdom of Hungary was a multi-ethnic state, if it was constructed under Hungarian administration it is not necessarily Hungarian.

• 6) You fail to see that all this articles don`t have this kind of POV pictures, therefore why should this one do? Take for example only the first Nation, Serbs (have a lot of places inhabited by them in Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Macedonia and yet not a singe image of them here. They are a constituent nation in Bosnia, they have a Republika Srpska and no images of places outside Serbia? Don`t you see anything strange here in comparison to the Hungarian people article? They have a big part of national heritage, UNESCO sites on Kosovo and yet not a single picture on the article. I think that the Serbs are one of the people with the most bigger diaspora and not a singe image of random places of them on the article? Do you understand it now?

• 7) Please don`t modify my comments! , if you take a look at my talk page that is forbidden - or as you called it Vandalism! You have deliberately deleted a part of my comment so I will just reinsert it.

Opening comments by uninvolved editor CoolKoon

It's always kinda sad to see Hungarian and non-Hungarian editors arguing because it's rarely constructive. And when the topic involves stuff that generally concerns only Hungarians (like this time), then it turns even uglier.
Iadrian yu for one thing you definitely have a history of edit warring and a cooperation with sockpuppeteers, most notably Iaaasi. This is a fact and his repeated appearance in this discussion make you look even more suspicious. Also this has nothing to do with the fact that you're Romanian. The whole argument seems to be sparked due to the fact that you seem to have some sort of inexplicable anti-Hungarian agenda which (currently) manifests itself in attempting to limit Hungarian influence to Hungary and trying to assert that nothing notable has been built by Hungarians outside of current borders of Hungary. Unfortunately it isn't Romania alone where the official curriculum manifests itself this way: I happen to know for a fact that Slovakia and Serbia is the same (in Slovakia Hungarian history is usually -but not always- taught from the Hungarian translations of the Slovak schoolbooks, while in Serbia the only schoolbooks allowed are the translated versions of the official Serbian schoolbooks). So while your bias might be understandable, it's inexcusable in context of Misplaced Pages, independently of your nationality.
So what if the pictures are outside of Hungary? Most (if not all) of them are from areas which still ARE inhabited by Hungarians AND are part of Hungarian architecture (designed/built/ordered by Hungarians). Or do you assert that Catholic churches of Transylvania have ANY connection to Romanians? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Romanians Orthodox? As for St. Elisabeth's church in Kosice, I happen to know that Ferenc Rákóczi is buried there. Do you deny his connection to Hungarians perhaps? Also, if not for these pictures, what pictures do you recommend from Hungarian architecture/artifacts OUTSIDE of Hungary? Perhaps you could make some suggestions.
I kinda fail to see the point in naming all those different nations you did. What does that have to do with Hungarian cultural heritage? I have nothing against naming items of the cultural heritage of other nations either. Why should be Hungarians exceptions to this?
On the other hand it was kinda pointless of Norden1990 to bring up the debate about Hunyadi, because it doesn't have much to do with the article discussed at all. The mere mentioning of Hunyadi has caused the discussion to become completely off-topic.

Since Iadrian yu himself has admitted on starting the whole issue, let me ask him: why did you do it? What was your point?

-- CoolKoon (talk) 15:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Answer to CoolKoon

It is always nice to see other editors participating, but uninvolved I would`t say. I will skip the personal attacks you made on me and go right to the point.

• 1) I am not denying any connection to the Hungarian people of the buildings you enumerated now but you must take into consideration that this images can be used as POV pushing since we have random images from Romania and Slovakia only, but not from Serbia, Austria, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Ukraine ? Example: Rimetea, majoritary Hungarian village in Transylvania, Romania - In Romania and a typical village. Should we add all other 100000 billion villages with Hungarian majority too? Why only this village? What is on this image so special to the Hungarian people?
• 2) The connection of the Church you talk about is obvious, but please consider all other wikipedia articles of Nations I enumerated here, many if all of them could have same pictures outside their country, but they don`t. If we have examples all over wikipedia of something, why should this article be any special? For example, the Serbs are in even better position to have this kind of images, but they don`t.. Take a look at Gračanica monastery, it was declared Monument of Culture of Exceptional Importance in 1990, and it is protected by Republic of Serbia, and on 13 July 2006 it was placed on UNESCO's World Heritage List - and yet no picture of it on the Serbs article?
• 3) I am really stunned that you don`t see the connection with the Nations`s articles I enumarated. I will try to explain it further. We have articles about nations all over wikipedia, all of them don`t contain this kind of problematic pictures like the Hungarian people do. Do you see the problem now?
• 4) For example a map of the region where Hungarian people are inhabited is OK by me (and nobody is denying the Hungarian presence in those places), but according to all the other examples on Misplaced Pages, adding random images of places outside that county is not. Example on the Hungarian people, the section "Folklore and Landscape" - landscape of Hungary? Or Hungarian people? I don`t see any Hungarian people on those images. This is also very misleading.
• 5) Of course I started the discussion, and if you check the talk page of the Hungarian people, you can see why. Adrian (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Answer to Iadrian yu

You wouldn't say that I'm uninvolved? I wasn't editing this article in the past 7 months for sure and neither did I participate in the edit war and heated debate unlike your "brother in faith" did (who's still blocked BTW), so this time I'm quite uninvolved.

1) Ok, the fact that the images are only from Slovakia and Romania CAN be considered POV and biased, so yes, I have nothing against inserting images from Serbia, Croatia, Austria and Ukraine as well. However that might make the gallery a bit overcrowded, don't you think? Also, it's not like these images itself are set in stone, you're always free to recommend some better ones. But then again what do you have against this particular village?

2) Why would the fact that other nations don't have such list of monuments (e.g. because they don't care for their cultural heritage too much) mean that/necessitate the Hungarians should follow the same path? Why should the Hungarian editors copy other nations' editors' attitude?

3) No, I don't and see my answer for 2)

4) Ok, then the term "landscape" should be removed/changed to something more appropriate. Not a big deal.

5) Yes, you stated some vague ars poetica on the beginning of the discussion at the article's talk page, but that doesn't explain that why now and why this article.

-- CoolKoon (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Second Answer to CoolKoon

I did`t know that I had a "brother in faith" as you say. In case you missed it, please read WP:NPA. Before I start answering your comment, please read my initial answer to you (point 1) )one more time, I have a feeling you misunderstood the 1) of my comment. Now to the point.

• 1) Yes, but this is a paradox if you can notice. On one side if we insert all images we will have an already heavy gallery even heavier(overcrowded), on the other side following all the other examples I think we should focus on the actual Hungarian people, not it`s "landscapes" to avoid any possible problems. A lesson that can be seen from all other nation`s articles. About the village, please analyze my 1) point again, I have nothing against it, just making a point that if we have one random village, why not all of them? What makes Rimetea, majoritary Hungarian village in Transylvania, Romania special? I see nothing special there, except some trees and a couple of houses that can be build by any ethnic group. Nothing to distinct then from all the others, something special only to the Hungarian people.
• 2) I wouldn`t say that "they don't care for their cultural heritage too much" - as an argument (every nation respects itself, it is impossible that 12 nations don`t care and only the Hungarian nations does..), but in my opinion they focus on the subject of the article and not inserting random images of some places. Ex: On the Hungarian people article, you can notice that I have left the images that are outside Hungary: "Voivodina Hungarians women's national costume" , "Csárdás folk dance in Skorenovac, Vojvodina, Serbia" and "Kalotaszeg folk Costume in Transylvania, Romania" because they actually depict the Hungarian people and traditions (something special for the Hungarian people only) - what this article should represent.
• 3) On wikipedia if no rule is defined, we edit according to other examples. If there is a reason for a special case, then we introduce a special case. Hungarian people are not special to any other nation or ethnic group. In this case we have a dozen of articles of Nations like Hungarian people, and none of the have this kind of gallery including images outside their country. According to all examples, I made changes to the Hungarian people too.
• 4) Ok, but even that doesn`t solve the problem. And if changed, how can you explain adding random places to the gallery? How to explain for example the addition of one Hungarian village and not the other? What makes one special from another?
• 5) Sorry if you see "ars poetica" in arguments, I will try to be more precise and I hope I explained my reasons in my 2 comments now. Adrian (talk) 19:34, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Third Answer to CoolKoon

I understand moving my comment, and I am Ok with that as long as you don`t modify or remove anything from it.

I have really tried to explain to you why are this changes valid but you simply refuse to acknowledge the arguments or you call my arguments "hypocrisy". You refuse to acknowledge other examples and the arguments why this images are out of context. It must be something special, only attributed to the Hungarian people, not images of random places.

I see that you are now poetic, "The "riches" of the (still ridiculously poor) country (besides the Csíksomlyó pilgrimage)? The sight of the gas pipes just laid around next to the road? The unsightly view of ALL the conceivable cables fastened to the buildings (sometimes including fiber optics) instead of them being buried into ground (or at least into special underground cable channels as it's done in ANY civilized country)?" - I did`t know that Romania is so uncivilized(Do people even use forks there?) and that the only good things in it are the Hungarian sites.. very neutral POV and a rock solid arguments really.

If you think that my goal is to remove the mention that Hungarians live in those places(or to undermine the Hungarian people in any way), please be free to insert in the article, in the text form locations you feel needed, or all locations where Hungarians live.

I have explained in detail why this images are not appropriate, I don`t know what else to say except to repeat myself, which I will avoid.Adrian (talk) 00:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Second answer to Iadrian yu

(I had to move your reply below mine for legibility reasons, because otherwise the whole discussion would be an even bigger mess than it already is)

Look, what I was pointing at is that your familiarity with Iaaasi is well-known to everyone who's been around longer than a year or two. This is not a personal attack, but a fact. But if you insist, I can always file an SPI to have at least the proxy he's editing from blocked.

You see the hypocrisy in your whole argument is the fact that the "random Transylvanian village with Hungarian majority" picture isn't BY FAR the only one you've removed. To be precise I've counted up to 7 items which you've removed in your last edit and only 2 of them pertained to various villages. The rest were various castles and churches, all of which lie outside of present-day Hungary yet constitute some of the finest examples of Hungarian architecture. If that won't be so, then tell me, what else would draw hundreds of thousands of Hungarian tourists every single year to Transylvania (and Slovakia as well)? The "riches" of the (still ridiculously poor) country (besides the Csíksomlyó pilgrimage)? The sight of the gas pipes just laid around next to the road? The unsightly view of ALL the conceivable cables fastened to the buildings (sometimes including fiber optics) instead of them being buried into ground (or at least into special underground cable channels as it's done in ANY civilized country)? No, the Hungarians go to the various cities of Transylvania to see the Hungarian artifacts there, to see the birthplace of King Matthias, to see the Székely cities, to see the top of Madarasi-Hargita etc. None of the Hungarian tourists go there to see the Orthodox churches of which so many have been built in Romania in the last couple of years that one would think that Romanians are spending their whole day in them. In fact nobody insists even on inserting any Romanian Orthodox church into the gallery. Why are the Catholic churches problematic then (into which no Romanian would ever step anyway)? Because the Slovaks are Catholics too? So what? A church consecrated to St. Elisabeth of the Árpád dynasty can't belong to Hungarian heritage? A castle built by a member of the Hont-Pázmány family and long owned by the Pálffys is not supposed to be Hungarian? Then what is? Only what's within Hungary? Because your actions certainly seem to assert so. As far as I'm concerned the villages can be removed, but anything else should be left in, because you're yet to prove that they are not connected to Hungarian culture and heritage.

Like I said earlier: why should the presentation of Hungarian heritage be the same as that of other nations? Misplaced Pages's rules are not THAT exact when it comes to standardization. I mean I'm pretty sure that you'd be ridiculed endlessly when you'd argue on New York City or London articles' talk page with the Belgrade or Bucharest articles. And this is pretty much the same. Besides: I'd wholeheartedly support the inclusion of any Slovak artifacts in the appropriate article even if it'd come from outside of Slovakia. The things is however that Slovakia in general (and the public opinion of Slovakia in general) doesn't care about the Slovak minorities living abroad so it's kinda a moot point. But arguing with the "deletionist" approach of other articles in an article based on inclusionism is completely pointless.

-- CoolKoon (talk) 23:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Opening comments by

Hungarian people discussion

I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. I've hesitated to say anything because I'm probably not going to moderate this dispute and wanted to leave it unopened for another volunteer to take it, but let me warn the editors in this discussion that we do not deal with conduct disputes here and will not tolerate personal attacks. Do not discuss or comment about one another or any other editor. If you have conduct, including puppetry, complaints, take them to sockpuppet investigations, WP:ANI, or WP:RFC/U but do not make or discuss them here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

This is the 4th personal attack on me. Is there anything I can do to stop this kind of accusations on my account?Adrian (talk) 00:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In response to BashBrannigan's last comment:

It was announced Dec 20, 1996 that Apple Computer, Inc. would acquire NeXT Software, Inc. (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193-96-000027.txt) and, following the transaction, the subject was to be a part-time consultant to Apple. The subject was not appointed Interim CEO until Sep 16, 1997.

The rebuttal quote from the Mar 28, 1996 article that Apple’s “financial situation was so dire” then is not attributed to any person other than a “former Apple executive” (who could just as well been the subject). In addition, the article also states “And some industry experts contend that while Apple has a serious image problem with customers, the affliction is not necessarily fatal.” and that “Having drifted lately in the $23 range that only weeks ago was deemed an insult when Sun proposed it as a takeover price, Apple's shares gained $1.375 today to close at $25.25.”

Moreover, according to US government SEC filings by Apple, referred below as the “Registrant” (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193-96-000023.txt):

“The aggregate market value of voting stock held by nonaffiliates of the Registrant was approximately $2,941,155,709 as of November 29, 1996, based upon the closing price on the Nasdaq National Market reported for such date.”

A $3bn publicly-traded Silicon Valley stalwart with a loyal following on the edge of insolvency would have gotten more coverage than a single article with a non-attributed quote speculating on the company’s demise. The fact that Apple still had refinanced its debts at 6% with low-grade long-term securities, held about $1bn cash one year later and had a substantial market value even after reporting a large loss indicates that the company was solvent. This article and / or its quote appear to be the common Silicon Valley FUD.

Pdunbarny (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

user:Zad does not appear to exist. Certainly, that user has no contributions so can't be involved in this dispute. There is a Zad68 who appears to have been involved, and I've changed 'users involved' appropriately. Zad68 has been notified. CarrieVS (talk) 22:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

According to:

"It seems as though there is a consensus forming here: Quackwatch is neither always a reliable source nor always an unreliable source. It is a partisan source with disputed information that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis by editors. Per WP:MEDRS, higher quality, peer-reviewed research is always preferred over the provacative and self-published articles of Quackwatch - so when they are available, citations to notable scientific journals make a better source for Misplaced Pages articles. We must stay mindful when using Quackwatch and similar partisan sites as sources, paying special attention when they are overused by true believers of Quackwatch. ;-) -- Levine2112 discuss 02:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)" (From the relevant RSN discussion)

Quackwatch is considered as provocative and containing of self-published articles. Here I'll provide reliable primary and secondary available sources:

Current research on nanosilver

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18069039

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17468052

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18854209 - However the third article PMID 18854209 is a recent review article in a MEDLINE-indexed peer-reviewed journal with a high impact factor. In my opinion, that article is worth looking into and possibly using in this article. (By Zad)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19141039

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19523420

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22286985

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21839058

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22654516 - Cites http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21839058.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20730806 - A recent 2012 review - secondary source. Peer-reviewed medline indexed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22117785 - Dental oriented 2011 review.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22029522 - Coping with antibiotic resistance: combining nanoparticles with antibiotics and other antimicrobial agents. Secondary source.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23163208 - Synergy between novel antimicrobials and conventional antibiotics or bacteriocins. Secondary source. "..examines the enhancement of antibiotic efficacy by their combination with new antimicrobials, such as plant-derived compounds, metal ions and nanoparticles and bacteriophage lytic enzymes

p.s. Here are some more sources:

   http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2013/CS/C2CS35289C - Controlled synthesis of colloidal silver nanoparticles in organic solutions: empirical rules for nucleation engineering .
   http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn301724z?mi=z48nb4&af=R&pageSize=20&searchText=aging - Formation Mechanism of Colloidal Silver Nanoparticles: Analogies and Differences to the Growth of Gold Nanoparticles.
   http://iopscience.iop.org/2043-6262/3/4/045007 - Powerful colloidal silver nanoparticles for the prevention of gastrointestinal bacterial infections
   http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956566312002412 - Robust one pot synthesis of colloidal silver nanoparticles by simple redox method and absorbance recovered sensing 

It would be very highly doubtful and very unusual to have many scientists investigating a quackery substance. Not to mention the positive results all of the articles demonstrate. Ryanspir (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, here's my thoughts on that.

• Are any of these about ingesting colloidal silver, as treatments for any disease? If not, I don't think they apply to this situation, nor would they be evidence that that use of colloidal silver is not 'quackery'.
• Would you agree that if better sources can't be found (and agreed to be appropriate), one of the Quackwatch sources could be used, with an in-text attribution such as "Quackwatch says..."? If not, could you give reasons why. CarrieVS (talk) 20:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Per "Per WP:MEDRS, higher quality, peer-reviewed research is always preferred over the provacative and self-published articles of Quackwatch - so when they are available, citations to notable scientific journals make a better source for Misplaced Pages articles." I would highlight the word "always".

I wouldn't like Quackwatch to be used in this article because it makes the article speculative. I have further established that higher quality, peer-reviewed research is present, current, in abundance and with positive results.

In relation to ingestion, I'm currently satisfied with the FDA advisory regarding that, the link is here: http://www.fda.gov/Food/DietarySupplements/Alerts/ucm184087.htm. I have no problem of the FDA advisory to be used in the article. In fact, I have proposed also to remove all NCCAM refereed context and only use the current FDA's one as it outlines the current situations, in which some of the silver containing preparations has been approved by the FDA for external use, and none were approved for ingestion.

I'll also bring to your attention, that the updated quackwatch article says: "(or anything else)". That contradicts the FDA advisory which separates ingestion (which is still in the field of alternative medicine) with external application. A quote from the FDA advisory: "Silver has some appropriate medical uses, such as medicines, bandages, and dressings used to treat burns, skin wounds, or skin infections, and as medicines used to prevent the eye condition called conjunctivitis in newborn infants. However, there are no legally marketed prescription or over-the-counter (OTC) drugs containing silver that are taken by mouth."

As such, I agree that this quote from FDA can be used specifically in relation to ingestion: "FDA regulates dietary supplements under a different set of standards than those that apply to drugs. For example, FDA does not approve dietary supplements or their labels before they are sold. It is unlawful for a manufacturer to represent a dietary supplement containing silver as able to prevent, diagnose, mitigate, treat, or cure any disease."

If that is ok with you, there is no need to use quackwatch (or NCCAM for this matter). Ryanspir (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As an aside, there's no need to keep adding to the thread on your talk page. I'm watching this page so I'll know when you reply. I only posted my last reply there so that the others would see it.

Firstly, which of the sources you've found pertain to ingestion of colloidal silver to treat diseases? Please bear in mind that I am very far from an expert on this topic or on medical Misplaced Pages articles in general.

Secondly, can I repeat my question from above, if - this is a hypothetical situation - better sources can't be found and agreed to be appropriate, would you then - in that hypothetical situation - agree to use the Quackwatch source?

Thirdly, as I understood the sentence, the phrase "or anything else" referred to treating diseases by ingestion of colloidal silver.

Fourthly, I'm not sure whether the FDA quote is applicable either. Precisely what content would you be using it to source? CarrieVS (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Another aside: from some of the things you've said, I'm concerned that you might be under the impression that I have a position of authority or would be able to overrule the other editors. That is not the case: volunteers have no special powers or privileges, and we can only try to help you come to an agreement with the other editors. If you're hoping for me to issue some sort of ruling in the face of consensus, we might as well close this now. CarrieVS (talk) 22:03, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The relevant quote is: "Colloidal Silver

Many colloidal silver and silver salt preparations have been touted as cures for AIDS, chronic fatigue, herpes, TB, syphilis, lupus, malaria, plague, acne, impetigo, and many other diseases. Lyme disease is just the latest target. A 1996 Federal Register notice stated the "FDA is not aware of any substantial scientific evidence that supports the use of . . . colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts for these disease conditions." The same notice stated that "human consumption of silver may result in argyria—a permanent ashen-gray or blue discoloration of the skin, conjunctiva, and internal organs" . Despite these warnings, some websites devoted to Lyme disease or colloidal silver products display misleading reports about laboratory experiments in which colloidal silver killed spirochetes. One such report is a letter from Dr. Burgdorfer, the discoverer of the Lyme spirochete. The letter merely reports on a pilot study using colloidal silver to kill spirochetes in a test tube and states that additional laboratory and human studies are underway. Many silver and Lyme advocates have used the letter to suggest that colloidal silver has been proven effective against Lyme disease. However, no study has shown that colloidal silver is safe or effective for treating people with Lyme disease (or anything else)." It referenced to which is Federal Register 61:53685-53688, 1996.

I see that Ryan's been blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry -doesn't come as a surprise, but it is a shame as we finally seemed to be making some progress. I assume the rest of you can all agree on what to say and cite and we can wrap this thread up? CarrieVS (talk) 20:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I think with that, there is no more impediment to agreement and consensus and this can be closed. Zad68 20:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems it was a misunderstanding. CarrieVS (talk) 16:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

A little late but open.Go ahead and close it after two weeks but shouldn't it be opened?24.0.133.234 (talk) 16:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone mentioned that indiscriminate use of colloidal silver causes human being's skin to turn blue? If the previously mentioned Quackwatch article does include that warning, I think that it would be a good source.24.0.133.234 (talk) 16:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'shouldn't it be opened?' I had intended to close the thread several days ago, unless Ryanspir had replied again in that time, but I've since heard from him (on my talk page) that he does intend to continue the discussion so I was leaving it until either he returned or the case is archived. Regarding silver turning you blue, there is a section about it in the article already. CarrieVS (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Pardon me but I was attempting to jiggle the pink statement at the top of this DRN. I was under the impression that a volunteer could open a discussion by posting but it is still pink-my bad.Yes I did see that under side-effects ty.24.0.133.234 (talk) 22:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)