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MezzoMezzo's continuous disruptive editing and highly biased editing behavior with a certain agenda

The case is related to User:MezzoMezzo.He is continuously using Misplaced Pages:Agenda_account just to promote his views and to prove his POV.He continuously fills the Barelvi Article with Misplaced Pages:UNDUE#Due_and_undue_weight criticism. He is just trying to prove his personal Point Misplaced Pages:POINT any how. He has edited Articles with Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing,Misplaced Pages:Coatrack and Misplaced Pages:Fait accompli.

He is editing a numbers of Articles with Misplaced Pages:Civil_POV_pushing.His non constructive edits and his behavior have confirmed that he is good at arguing but is working for some agenda.He is using his account to promote his POV in many Articles of Islam. All this has led to edit warring and dispute on the Barelvi Article which was totally neutral and far from any dispute since a long time. His behavior and editing motives confirmed that He is working regularly to reduce the Importance of Sufi oriented Articles and Subjects while promoting blatant POV through his pages of likeness associated with Salafi or Wahabi.He is trying to control Wahabi and Ahle Hadees Pages.

• He uses Wiki:Policies and discussions just to change the character of various Articles.On the one hand he seems to be engaged in discussion in a very civil and objective manner but this all is done just to prove his Point.He can use wordingsit does NOT MATTER how many sources are provided to insert his POV.
• See here he will always remove the content to which he does not like.
• See here and
• here
• here
• Inserted a biased source here and
• veiled criticism in the name of history section here again
• here .

• This POV pushing based on single source continued until a edit warring started with more than one users.
• Again Biased editing full of Non Neutral POV with a motive , *,
• Blatant accusations ,
• Trying to Prove Barelvi practice Un-Islamic see here
• Again accusations
• Blatant POV and lies
• Editing to prove a Point
• Removing the name of a movement on the basis of his personal likeness and dislikeness.
• Inserting his POV
• Big accusation supported by Non Neutral source
• Again tampering
• Again pushing Un verified and non neutral POV

• Salafi-Removing a very Genuine template from the Article see here and Protecting *blatant lies and POV here .
• Unsourced POV here ]
• Nazim Al-Haqqani -He removed a lot of content here]

• Tawassul-Removing total neutral valid content according to his personal views here inserting his POV here
• Ibn Arabi He removed half of content in bad faith here
• Ya Muhammad here

• He Suggested a Number of Article of Scholars of other movements Sufism
• for speedy deletion ,
• ,
• ,
• ,
• Mohra shareef here
• Mohammad Qasim Sadiq here

• This is continue since long:-In the Past he has
• He Proposed several Articles belonging to Sufism for Speedy Deletion See here

• Now He has opened a Pandora Box by opening at least 10 headings on talk page in a single day.
• He is rushing to add his POV and disputed points in Barelvi Article.It is an attempt to rewrite the complete Barelvi Article from his point of view.

• He is doing this since long-
• See a small example here and here
• reverted by other editors .
• Continuously engaged in heated debates with various editors

• Many editors in Past have noticed this fact that Salafis and Wahabi editors have tried to vandalize this Article Barelvi

• This editing pattern has harassed many editors in the past and has forced them to leave editing specially from Barelvi Page.For Ex-User:Hassanfarooqi,User:MatthewVanitas with his efforts to improve the Article ,User:Nkv and User:Coercorash. Many fears to edit a single line or wording on these Pages due to this monopoly.

• One can't remove blatant POV from Salafi Article due to Page control but you can find other pages are used as Soap Box by these editors.
• If this situation is not changed ,I will be forced to think to leave Misplaced Pages as an editor.This situation and behavior should be discontinued to make Misplaced Pages a platform free for all neutral editors.Msoamu (talk) 22:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

This is actually somewhat amusing for me. In a case like this, is a defense on my part even necessary? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:29, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear friends, sorry, but I cannot agree with Msoamu that MezzoMezzo is trying to change the tone / focus of whole articles according to his personal views or that he is trying to provoke other editors through his conduct. He tries hard to verify all his points with reliable evidence, he tries hard to maintain a neutral tone and he tries hard to explain his edits one-by-one. I do not agree with all of his edits, but I cannot conclude that he is a biased editor with an ulterior motive or a Salafi or Wahabi who is trying to undermine all other interpretations of Islam. By the way, the Barelvi page has not been "totally neutral" at any stage since I started watching it a few years ago. Indeed, it is unlikely that any page on any religious movement will be totally free of competing viewpoints (and corresponding edits). Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 04:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Great!I am witness to this editing Pattern and behavior of this particular editor MezzoMezzo who has history of inserting his bias in various articles.This is not about just a Barelvi article,much more than that.I request admins here to look deep into the motives of the editing of this editor which you will find is just pushing negative comments. Shabiha (talk) 05:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• Any comments about the Barelvi article should be thrown away immediately. Since the article was unprotected, MezzoMezzo hasn't made a single edit, whilst I've made 4, Shabiha has made 1, GeorgeCustersSabre 1, and Mosamu 1 (which was reverted). I thought I'd sorted this dispute out, evidently not. MezzoMezzo has outlined every single proposed edit on the Barelvi talk page in its own subsection for discussion. This isn't the mark of a POV-pushing editor, whereas Msoamu has barely involved himself in the discussion (although, to be fair, Shabiha has been highly involved). By the way, they've found sources that show that not all Barelvis are terrorists, in a section about condemning the assassination of Salmaan Taseer. Also note that Shabiha has edited Mezzo's comments himself on a talk page, without any real reason, to try and make MezzoMezzo look like a POV-pusher: . I can't speak for the other articles, and I'd hoped that all involved parties would sort them out one at a time, starting with Barelvi, but if anyone's guilty of POV-pushing, it's Msoamu and Shabiha. I think this should WP:BOOMERANG, especially as Msoamu was blocked for edit warring on this subject for constantly inserting his POV into articles. Lukeno94 (talk) 09:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

With regards to the Ibn Arabi allegation, I can verify that Msoamu is the one causing the problem, as all MezzoMezzo did was remove a massive chunk of unverified information (or verified only by primary sources, which aren't sufficient in this case; the information was highly non-neutral. Even with the edit, the article still needs major improvement. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:08, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• One major issue is that the majority of Msoamu's diffs are also very old, I believe, and yet being presented as if they're a recent issue... Lukeno94 (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• I have not discussed here just a single Article ′but continuous patterns and motives of him'.He is continuously engaged in proposing Sufi movement Articles for deletion.But he is facing failure in his attempts.Many editors have removed his Deletion Prod from various Sufi Articles see here ,.Msoamu (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

See here

• Msoamu, a lot of your issue here is that you're presenting diffs from 2007 as if they're recent. They're not, and from mine, and other editor's, assessments of this dispute, you are by far the more disruptive. There are very few diffs you've presented that date from after your block for edit warring. I believe I requested that you'd stop trying to sully MezzoMezzo's name with half-baked accusations, sadly, you haven't. I can only see this being resolved by a WP:BOOMERANG and a topic and/or interaction ban being enforced on Msoamu, sadly. Lukeno94 (talk) 20:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• Luken,Kindly read my above comments.There are major POV pushing and disruptive editing by MezzoMezzo with in a month.The time period from which he has started this years editing.I have given numbers of Pages and Articles as Proof which he has recommended for Deletion with in a month and reverted by various editors.All the Pages in past and in present he has recommended for deletion belong to Sufi movement ,for which he seems to have certain agenda.Even I have shown recent changes by him to reduce importance from various Articles so that later they can be suggested for Deletion.Most of the pages he has developed belong to Salafi movement which is in strong opposition of Sufi or Barelvi movement.This is not a case of half baked accusation or something else.Non salafi Islamic expert can easily identify his edits.He has been accused of doing this many times.

• I have brought this case here to examine his edits in depth and to seek comments on his editing pattern.Msoamu (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• Your comments seem to suggest that sourcing doesn't matter a jot - if you disagree with an edit, it can have a thousand reliable sources backing it up, and still should be removed. That is totally incorrect, as are assertions that Mezzo has regularly gone against consensus - the opposite is true. Some of these complaints about AfDs are unfounded, as other editors have removed significant chunks of information (rightly or wrongly), and that is what Mezzo has based their arguments on. Also, you've confused speedy deletion and AfDs in your diffs - the two are very different. You also label things as "big accusations" when they're not, they're single sentences worded neutrally. Saying things like "Barelvis have begun mixing with Shi'ites more than before" is NOT an accusation, it's quite possibly a statement of fact (I don't know the source, so can't check), and it's blatantly absurd to claim that - I don't suppose you're anti-Shi'ite? In fact, you've even provided diffs here that have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with MezzoMezzo - try this one: as an example. You're so blinkered by either your dislike of MezzoMezzo, his (fairly neutral) views, or these movements themselves that you're making a boatload of unfounded accusations, based on a mixture of old, dodgy or downright incorrect evidence. For what it's worth, I'll provide my talk page assessment of this dispute here, from the 9th of February:

• Right, I'm not an admin, so I suggest you contact one of them about de-archiving the AN/I report, or more probably, how to proceed with a new one. The first AN/I diff is definitely a personal attack: "1.This is high time that Misplaced Pages should frame a policy to check and examine the role of various editors who have acted in a manner which is fit to be called a WikiJehadi."here is a clear attack. I would not consider the second one to be, merely Msoamu defending his position in an aggressive manner (which is similar, but not quite the same thing).here I'm not sure whether the third diff is a personal attack; it's borderline, but probably not.here He's accused you of a COI, not anything more. I was not convinced that there were any real attacks in the remaining 3 diffs. Below, I will state what I think of the editing on the articles:

• Barelvi. User:GorgeCustersSabre would appear to agree with you that Msoamu has removed less-positive content from the article:. One thing you may not have realized is that way back in 2006 (!) Msoamu was warned about re-writing the article from his point of view by User:Firien:.
• Wahabi. User:Dawn Bard appears to agree that Msoamu is not being constructive, and has made poorly-sourced additions. A quick look at one of his edits would lead me to agree with this - providing a forum as a reference for a religious group being home to extremism is clearly not on.
• His talk page. I see you warned this user about this way back in 2007, so it's clear that this has been going on for a very long time between you two editors.

Normally, I would suggest that you stepped back from the topic and left the edit war, particularly the Barelvi article. However, in this case, two separate editors agree with your contributions, and not Msoamu's, and some of Msoamu's additions are borderline vandalism. I would suggest you request full-protection for both articles for a short time, to prevent the edit war continuing, and that you write a new, better AN/I with the help of an admin - as Msoamu has been at this for nearly 7 years, it has to stop. Lukeno94 (talk) 09:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Msoamu, I suggest you look at your actions, apologize, and move on, and join the discussions, otherwise the ONLY way I can see this age-old problem is for you to be topic banned from editing anything to do with Islam, broadly construed, and an interaction ban with MezzoMezzo. You were flagged as being disruptive on these articles in 2006: this needs to stop. Lukeno94 (talk) 08:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
• Dear Luken,I learnt a lot from this discussion here.I will try to be calm and cool.Many times third person can clearly tell us that what is really wrong.Hope to see your cooperation in editing,I regret my complaint.Thanks.Msoamu (talk) 00:29, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• I think it's unfortunate that you decided to go against the discussions I'd tried to have with the pair of you, as it's likely this will WP:BOOMERANG back at you, with your history of being involved in edit-warring on these topics as long ago as 2006. Lukeno94 (talk) 08:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Counter-claims

Msoamu and two editors with whom he sometimes collaborates have launched what I feel are a number of personal attacks on me in the past few days or so.

In the case of User:Msoamu:

Accused me of supporting Salafism and Wahhabism here.

Note that Msoamu was recently blocked for edit warring, POV-pushing and personal attacks (against me). This user has been blocked for vandalizing the same article in 2006.

In the case of User:Hassanfarooqi:

Accused me of engaging in a "Salafi jihad" and turning Misplaced Pages into a "jihad ground" here.

Called me an "anti-Sufi bigot" and accused me of engaging in a "Jihad against Sufism" and brining a jihad to Misplaced Pages here.

Accused me of being an "anti-sufi wahhabi" and on a "jihad to wipe them (Sufis) all out" when creating this page.

Note that Msoamu seems to be egging Hassanfarooqi on here.

This user was also blocked in 2006, but for personal attacks rather than vandalism.

In the case of User:Shabiha:

Changed one of my comments on a talk page, seemingly to portray me as a POV-pusher, here.

Accused me of supporting Salafist jihadism here. Yes, it's there. Look all the way down at the very last sentence in his edit.

This user was blocked in 2007 for edit warring and personal attacks.

Especially troublesome are the accusations of me supposedly supporting holy war and violent extremism. I work for a reputable institution; should I ever be outed, such accusations can have personal ramifications for my family and I. I've tried both ignoring it and asking for it to stop, and multiple other users have tried reasoning with these three to no avail. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:37, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I unintentionally deleted Your comments on a Talk page.I was para phrasing my own headings,in this process mistakenly done that.That was not motive which you understood.Next,the comment was not directed to you and was in good faith.Please avoid taking it personally. Shabiha (talk) 13:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• can I present here some earlier examples of Personal Attacks on me ? Shabiha (talk) 13:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

First, disclosure: Mezzomezzo asked me on my talk page about this complaint and whether or not he should post here, and I advised him to post a short summary with diffs as he has done above. Having said that, now that I see the diffs, Msoamu, Hassanfarooqi, and Shabiha need to stop the attacks immediately. I am willing to AGF that Shabiha's comment was not intended as an attack and the deletion was in error; but the other two are totally unacceptable. The are evidence of a battleground mentality at best, and outright offensive at worst. Were these western users casually dropping the term "jihad" it might be vaguely understandable, but these editors (based upon the topics they contribute in) must certainly know how strong and aggressive and, ultimately, rude such a label is. Just because someone nominates a lot of articles in a particular subject matter for deletion does not mean that they are attempting to wage a holy war of violence and eradication. Having seen some of the content Msoamu was defending, this is very disruptive. I'm interested in hearing what sort of defense these two have for their attacks. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Qwyrxian. Shabiha (talk) 21:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Response to counter claims asked by Qwyrxian:-

I am admitting that my wordings and behavior violated wiki policies and guidelines.For that I faced a blocked and I express my sincere apologies for the same.I am in discussion mode on Barelvi page.You can see my sincere discussions .But on the other hand would you like to examine these things.Sorry,If I wrote excessive points here but Don't this kind of behavior also needs some kind of action ?

• User:MezzoMezzo accused me of POV Pushing while i was just restoring a consensus version unchanged since months.
• Trying to insult me and another editor Baboon43
• Accused me of having some hidden reasons
• Claiming falsely that his edits have support of more than one editor which later on proved to be false
• He used the words, intentional disruption for other editors
• He was asked to refrain from making remarks about bias towards other editors
• Personal Attacks on more than one editors-
• Accused Baboon of Racism in these words, Baboon, this intense dislike of Saudi Arabia you seem to be promoting here and on other articles almost borders on racism. and this
• Seems to be engaged in edit warnings
• Accused User:Sunnibarelvi to malign the Salafist movement by creating a Template on Salafism..Msoamu (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

There's some signs of tendentious editing on Mezzo's part but I'm not sure if it is intentional or unintentional as i have not really looked into it..based on my previous discussion with Mezzo on Talk:Barelvi he took the discussion to ani which leads me to believe he might have strong feelings about this barelvi article. Baboon43 (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• All 3 editors are definitely passionate about this topic area, however you look at it. Msoamu's edits have regularly been the more biased - some of Mezzo's are definitely a bit iffy, but it's rare that someone other than Msoamu or Shabiha has reverted them. Part of Msoamu's problem is with his grasp of the English language: due to him clearly not being fluent, he sees things as being insults when they're not - for example, the diffs about Mezzo insulting him and you are most definitely not insults, and the one saying he has the support of other editors is sort-of true, as GeorgeCustersSabre has reverted Msoamu's edits back to Mezzo's edits. Shabiha also may suffer from a similar issue, albeit to a lesser degree. Inadvertently, Msoamu has also pointed to an inappropriate comment by Baboon - "your either a wahabi or just lack knowledge of the subject", of which the first section is inappropriate - you should not be speculating about what religious beliefs an editor has if they haven't publicly stated them. (I can't comment on the last bit, I've used those sorts of comments myself) Mezzo's template comments start off a bit marginal, but then he does improve them with some relevant points. I would state that "Sunnibarelvi" would be advised to stay away from the groups that Barelvis are known for having disputes with, due to the COI problem (not just his own, which I believe he actually handles reasonably well, but that of other editors, which may provoke a battle). These are just my observations; I'm definitely not a Muslim (nor am I anti-Muslim), let alone a member of any of these groups, so I'm neutral :) Lukeno94 (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• Regarding the ANI thing with Baboon, I took it there mainly because, after 6+ years of seeing Barelvi editors create accounts solely for the purpose of rewriting that article to push their POV, I've come to expect that from any non-native English speakers adding overly-positive content or deleting any content which is remotely negative. In the case of Baboon, things were sorted out (and he's apparently not a Barelvi or even from South Asia to begin with). I don't have strong feelings about Barelvism and I've never met one; I freely admit, however, to having strong feelings about the article. For years, the fact that most English speakers (and this is English Misplaced Pages) don't know much about the movement has been capitalized upon by Barelvi editors (not all Barelvis, but all of these editors have been Barelvis) in order to push POV about which most English speakers are not aware. I was never even aware of it until I witnessed this editing behavior across 2006-2007; were it not for editing Misplaced Pages, I wouldn't even know what Barelvis are.

As for the attacks, then Hassanfarooqi has a history of attacking anybody who disagrees with him even on articles relating to sports. Without even scrolling down, I checked his last 20 edits and found two personal attacks on other editors in addition to the three on myself. I don't think his issue is disruptive editing (I don't have the experience with him to say that) so much as it is habitually making personal attacks, despite having once been blocked for it. From what I can tell, nobody else ever seems to complain so it's hard to say how often this has happened in the years since his last block.

Msoamu has a combination of things. His editing has been described by disruptive by at least three or four editors other than Lukeno. He only seems to edit articles relating to Barelvism and the movement's opponents, and in all cases seems to present the beliefs of Barelvism as objective fact - Talk:Barelvi is testimony to that. He also has a tendency to call anyone who disagrees with him insulting names, usually relating to religious violence and extremism. I didn't know what a topic ban was before it was mentioned here but it seems to be the only way; as far as I know, he could still comment on talk pages but given his six years and going of POV-pushing followed by personal attacks and disruptive editing if he doesn't get his way, it seems to be the only solution. It seems that any article in which he takes interest never receives fair, productive attention or discussion.

About Shabiha, then again, after six years of interacting with this editor and having previously been involved with content and conduct disputes with him, my good faith has about run out. To be fair, though, Shabiha engages in discussion regarding content in addition to occasional personal remarks, whereas Msoamu generally engages in personal remarks in addition to occasional discussion of actual content, while Hassanfarooqi seems (on both religion and the soccer articles I saw) to just engage in personal attacks.

I would like to see some sort of repercussions at least for Msoamu and Hassanfarooqi. Not simply for attacking me personally, but also for the good of the articles on which they set their sights. MezzoMezzo (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The edits of MezzoMezzo have been described by various editors as Non Neutral and it is not my view that his editing tendentious.Many Salafi editors also have tried in past to change the page according to their wishes.I have tried to maintain it neutral.I have supported in past criticism section and it is there.Msoamu's latest evidences are enough to prove that MezzoMezzo is not free from attacking editors Personally.No one is free from errors.We should try to be Neutral and objective as much as we can. Shabiha (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Shabiha, there have been very few that have had major concerns with Mezzo, apart from those mentioned here (namely yourself, Msoamu, Sunnibarelvi and, apparently, Hassanfarooqi, whom I haven't come across, and haven't seen mentioned before). Most people have had issues with Msoamu. As I've said several times, you've all made mistakes, but Msoamu is probably the more aggressive, and part of the issue is the fact that you and Msoamu have a weaker understanding of English, and are less able to communicate than Mezzo, whom seems fairly fluent. All 3 of you have made allegations of personal attacks that have been completely incorrect, however (simply as English isn't your first language). This is coming from a native British English speaker, so I'm in some position to judge. No offence is meant by this, it's merely my observations. Lukeno94 (talk) 20:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems that both Msoamu and Hassanfarooqi have had a minimal amount of activity, so they have logged in. I'm concerned that they might just be trying to dodge the discussion so that it conveniently "goes away." Still, a discussion is not enough and the pattern of disruptive editing and personal attacks - again, especially ones relating to violence and radicalism - are something I would like to see administrators address. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Counter counter claims

I do not know who Mosoamu is. Any accusation of collaberation between us is a fabrication by the person who goes by the fake name MezzoMezzo. All I know is that MezzoMezzo is a Salafi which can be seen on his page, and he is an anti-Sufi as evident from his edits against sufi bios. As for my getting banned, it is easy for a gang of editors (or one person with many fake names) to complain and ban temporarily. I have seen many crusades and jihads against sufi bios, and each time I expose their vandalism, they get me banned. Hassanfarooqi (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Dude, are you kidding me? You log in for less than two hours and already launch on more personal attacks against me? In about an hour and forty minutes, you just:

Accused me of vandalism for nominating articles for AfD and made a clear threat of some unnamed retaliation,

Accused me of being on a "jihad" again in this edit

Implied that I'm a part of a terrorist organization here

Accused me of nominating articles for AfD based on my personal beliefs instead of the stated content issues here

Called me a bigot simply for nominating articles for AfD here

Accused me of nominating articles for AfD due to personal beliefs one more time

Did you even check what took place here? I brought you into this because Msoamu was clearly encouraging your behavior per the diff I showed above. Whether you know him in real life or not, you've clearly jumped onto this train.

Can administrators please do something about this? I haven't seen blatant personal attacks like this in a few years here on Misplaced Pages. MezzoMezzo (talk) 17:40, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any real accusations of a "collaboration", but bloody hell, that is a ridiculous comment to make, Hassan. I don't believe he is particularly anti-Sufi, or pro-Salafi, and certainly not to the degree you're accusing of him. Accusing him of being in a crusade, or a jihad, is a massive personal attack and this needs to be punished by a block, especially as you've made no attempt to provide evidence to back up your outlandish claims. Lukeno94 (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Propose some immediate action re Hassanfarooqi edits within last 2 hours as above. Among those edits "Why are you so afraid of revealing your name? Are you involved in a terror organization?" is not the only one totally unacceptable. Mezzo has already apologized for and withdrawn AfDs on the totally unsourced Sufi saints articles a week ago, it's evident that he didn't understand the AfD criteria (not alone there). In that week not a single source has been added, just more personal attacks on Mezzo. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal

Okay, my feeling is that this is all way too complex and long standing for ANI to solve; some of these complaints go back years, and it would probably take RfC/U's on everyone to really see if there are long term problems. As an alternative to that, I propose that we give Msoamu, Hassanfarooqi, and MezzoMezzo final warnings: any more personal attacks, incivility, or blatant POV pushing will result in escalating blocks, to be issued by any uninvolved admin. If any of them are in fact "innocent" (and note that I believe that MezzoMezzo is much more the victim here, possibly blameless), and are editing in the best interests of Misplaced Pages, then they aren't at risk. In a sense, what I'm recommending is that we place these three users on discretionary sanctions. Yes, I know that there is no such thing, but I think you can get my idea. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:38, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I fully accept and even welcome being put on discretionary sanction. I fully accept and welcome administrator scrutiny of any and all edits I make on Misplaced Pages indefinitely, and given the overly long nature of this conflict, a final warning after which no warnings shall come (Lovecraftian, no?) should solve this. I am confident that my editing here is merely to improve the site and thus I have no issue if my account remains under such scrutiny forever. I only ask that administrators follow through should personal attacks come from any of those involved, including myself. One question, will Shabiha be exempt from this? I feel that he has been involved in the same issues. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:47, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• I too feel that Shabiha should be placed on some kind of warning, although to my knowledge, he hasn't been involved in the dispute quite as long, so maybe it'll be a 3-strikes-rule or something for him. Lukeno94 (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Shabiha has also been at it on the Barelvi article. His block back in 2007 was for his personal attack on my talk page here due to the same POV/content disagrements. Similar comments about myself rather than relevant content can be found under his contributions during the past month or so. It's not limited to the original two examples I posted up there; while his comments are milder than those of the other two, the tendency for personal remarks is still there and has been for at least six years. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Note that the Shabiha and Msoamu are back to refactoring comment to a pro Barelvi POV, see here.Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.semiactive 12:17, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not only that, it's my comments, not MezzoMezzo, so they've got no valid reasons for it whatsoever. Lukeno94 (talk) 12:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear all,I welcome any proposal given by Administrators.I am ready to cooperate with all respected editors of this nice site. Shabiha (talk) 16:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I came across a small part of this at AfD by accident. Both Msoamu and Mezzo requested I say something. But I'm not familiar enough with content aspect. All I can say is that first impression that Mezzo was the problem quickly (sorry Msoamu) were reversed to Qwryxian's view that Mezzo isn't the problem here. However if it is "too complex and too long" then pre-final not final warnings are called for. Also Msoamu, Hassanfarooqi, you could avoid friction by reading WP:IRS and WP:PSTS and following it carefully with every byte added in article space. If content is sourced, even using Urdu Arabic or Farsi, then frictions and edit wars are much less likely. Also Msoamu, play the ball, not the man, okay? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comments. I became aware of this discussion because of a message Mezzo left on my talk page. Some might consider it WP:CANVASSING, although I can see that Mezzo isn't the only editor asking for outside input. I was the admin who blocked Msoamu. I haven't read the long list of bullets Msoamu posted at the beginning, although I clicked on a few of the diffs. I belive Hassanfarooqi was added in the middle of all this by Mezzo. Hassan was properly notified by Mezzo of this discussion, but I note that they haven't edited since February 20, so they haven't had a chance to respond, even though they are included as part of Qwyrxian's proposal. Although Mezzo doesn't object to the imposition of "discretionary sanctions" (it's kind of an editing restriction with a discretionary sanction flavor), it's unclear to me why he's included except perhaps out of an abundance of caution to be "fair". I commend Luke for his tremendous efforts to mediate, and I commend Qwyrxian for his proposal to resolve the situation in a practical way.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:30, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comments I was also asked to comment since I blocked Msoamu for six months in December 2006. Whilst that is old news, it appears from my review of some of the diffs and the comments above that there has been little improvement in his attitude to other users. I'm not sure why Mezzo merits a final warning, that appears to be intended to give an impression of even-handedness which is not justified. Msoamu clearly carries most of the responsibility here, and any sanctions should reflect that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the "warning" of MezzoMezzo was primarily a move towards even-handedness. My worry was that the previous discussion had bogged down and was overflowing with so many diffs (some ridiculously old) that I felt it likely that it was just going to end up archived without any action taken. My thinking is that if MezzoMezzo is, in fact, editing entirely in good faith (something I think very likely, though the large number of single subject AfD's can be a matter of concern), then the warning ultimately has no effect, as I'm trusting that future admins are smart enough to tell the difference between a real infraction and something trumped up by an adversary. My other thinking is this: I'm of the opinion that, in a certain sense, once a user has been here long enough, they shouldn't need civility warnings; that is, we should all be editing as if we were on a final warning for civility. I really don't want Msoamu and Hassanfarooqi to just be able to walk away thinking "It's okay to call someone a jihadist, as long as I make sure to be the one to file the complaint with dozens of diffs from the past 5 years". I want them to understand that this behavior stops now, or they stop editing. It's a risky move, but given that MezzoMezzo has indicated a willingness to accept the "warning", I'm even more comfortable with it. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Admins have worked hard to resolve this issue and I am really obliged to them all.I have always tried to improve the page with reliable sources and references.The continuous pushing of POV and nomination of one side's Articles for deletion,emphasizing on only negative/criticism proves that MezzoMezzo has really edited with a particular motives.He has been engaged in edit disputes with a number of editors.He has called them racist as in the case of 'Baboon and in case of other editors.It seems from his Canvassing and editing pattern on Sufi Articles that he don't want to allow other editors to edit these pages.You can find him on all Sufi Articles ,deleting genuine information while pushing negative/criticism.It is only he ,who has fight with so many editors.He will not allow any one to edit his favorite salafi Wahabi pages with neutral pint of view.see these pages how much POV has been supported and protected by him.I am not the only guilty here.ThanksMsoamu (talk) 08:11, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• That's a serious accusation, racism, especially when you haven't provided a single diff to prove it. I suggest you provide a diff immediately, or retract the allegation. Or do you mean that Mezzo was accusing Baboon of racism? I've never seen Mezzo be racist, you canvass as much as they do, and I think you are WP:IDHT with regards to your issues - it's very, very rare that anyone other than you, Shabiha, Sunnibarelvi or Hassanfarooqi, has ever reverted MezzoMezzo, or even had serious issues with Mezzo's edits (the marginal AfDs aside), whereas several editors, many very experienced, have reverted you. It's utter rubbish to speculate that he doesn't want to allow other editors to edit the articles, if your allegation was true, he'd have edited Sufism much more recently than the 9th of February, for example. Likewise, he hasn't edited Wahhabi since the 9th of February. The "Terrorism" section, which you edit warred over, for example, was a severe violation of WP:NPOV and Mezzo was right to remove it, pending a discussion. You fail to participate in many of the discussions, which only makes things worse. I feel that this discussion proves that, Msoamu at least, needs a topic ban. Lukeno94 (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Msoamu is referring to when I said that one of Baboon43's comments - not Baboon, but his comments - bordered on racism - not were actually racist, but bordered on racism. Anyway, I can see this ending easily with permanent surveillance of all edits by Msoamu, Hassanfarooqi, Shabiha and myself with all four of us being on "final warnings," though a topic ban in the case of Msoamu would also help the state of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages, the personal attacks aside. Hassanfarooqi's accusations of jihadi are more problematic and I really don't feel he should walk away from that without some sort of repercussions. He did engage in edits even after Msoamu notified him of this discussion on his (Hassanfarooqi's) talk page, so he obviously knows that this discussion at least began. The question is now: what solution will be implemented and how will it be implemented? MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:46, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

MezzoMezzo accused Baboon43 of Racism in these words, Baboon, this intense dislike of Saudi Arabia you seem to be promoting here and on other articles almost borders on racism. and this

He seemed to be engaged in edit warnings .Baboon43 was editing various Articles and he was forced to say to MezzoMezzo this ,by the way it seems you like to confront editors by following them around..seeing i never seen you on this talk page until you started snooping around my contributions.There are more than other five editors with whom MezzoMezzo has history of engaging in edit disputes.The history of Mawlid Article tells that he is only interested in showing different movements in negative lights.This edit dispute lasted a long between him and other editors. Similarly he is always working on removing validity of different Islamic concept which Salafis don't like and is approved by Sufis see Tawassul he removed validity section Read this heading,it does not talk about validity but liked only criticism supported by MezzoMezzo.He engaged in Sufi Wahabi disputes with various other editors here on Bidah Article .If he would have been so much neutral than multiple editors would not have accused him of pushing POV.He is also master in proposing Sufi related Articles for deletion.You will not find him doing same in the case of his favourite movement or supporting genuine criticism on wahabi/Salafi Articles.Even the scholars of Salafi movement will be untouched from criticism.What respected editors think ?Msoamu (talk) 13:09, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

His tendency of pushing his POV into various Articles and habit of engaging in edit disputes on Sufi related Articles Added his POV ,,.

He is only interested in inserting Criticism ,was accused of Cherry Picking material for this purpose see in Al-Ghazali ].Msoamu (talk) 13:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Your point has been made, Msoamu. This has been going on for what, a week and a half now? We've had trusted editors and several admins show support for Qwixrian's proposal and one editor suggest a topic ban. Just to keep things on point: what is the final decision, how will it be implemented, and who will do so? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

We need an uninvolved editor (usually an admin) to decide if there is consensus for action of any type here. To be honest, the fact that Msoamu has gone back on the offensive rather than apologize for or even acknowledge the serious problems his/her editing has makes me think that we might even be warranted in skipping the warning. I'm of half a mind to do so myself, as I don't think I'm involved enough here to raise to the level of WP:INVOLVED...but I'd prefer another admin act, one way or the other. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Respected administrators,I have already apologized here and I am in no mood of Offensive. MezzoMezzo's continuous offensive forced me to bring some proofs from his editing pattern.I respect your opinions and decisions.Msoamu (talk) 07:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• Either you're refusing to get the points people are making, or your English isn't good enough for you to understand that it is your editing style that is much more problematic than Mezzo's. Mezzo has made some marginal decisions, but so have I, whereas you have made a number of very bad edits, and then warred to try and keep them there. Lukeno94 (talk) 13:18, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comments I usually avoid commenting on cheap attacks, but was dragged on into this holy war after MezzoMezzo went after my bios trying to get them deleted, and then reacted on my defence them by posting all over my page. Hassanfarooqi (talk) 16:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Really, so you avoid commenting on cheap attacks, and yet you make your own cheap attacks above? Hmm. Lukeno94 (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Interaction ban

An interaction ban between Msoamu and MezzoMezzo is the only appropriate solution in this case.

Support. Zaminamina (talk) 15:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - with respect, I don't think you've quite understood the issue. This ban would be unhelpful as it doesn't address any issues with biased editing, and as they both contribute primarily to the same articles, it makes things even worse with that regard. It also ignores any issues from Shabitha and other editors involved. The proposal above this is far better. Lukeno94 (talk) 18:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Such a ban would be impossible, since the two editors already co-edit a large number of articles...and there are ongoing AfD's and content disputes in which neither of them should necessarily gain precedence. Furthermore, from my reading of the situation (which is somewhat limited), MezzoMezzo is attempting to conduct wide ranging cleanup in topics that have been created and/or protected by Msoamu, and the encyclopedia would be significantly worse off to lose his editing in those topics. Again, returning to the key point that lead for my call for the above proposal: calling someone a "jihadist", repeatedly, is something that needs to stop, period. I cannot believe that using such a strong invective is uniquely caused by the relationship between these two. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

While my opposition to such an unworkable solution goes without saying, the fact that I'm one of the subjects here might disqualify that comment. But to support what Qwyrxian said above, a big concern of mine here is the personal attacks which have already occured, and the pattern of continuous personal attacks and disruptive editing which have gone on with Msoamu, Hassanfarooqi and Shabiha for the past six years. While an interaction ban won't solve things, we still need something, as leaving the situation as it is will effectively prevent a large number of religion and Islam related articles on Misplaced Pages from ever receiving fair, objective discussion. I think the comments from multiple users here have demonstrated these concerns. How can we resolve this issue and implement a workable solution? MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

A topic ban for both MezzoMezzo and Msoamu seems to me relevant solution of this long lasting problem.The love of MezzoMezzo for Salafism and then his interest in editing Sufism related topics thereby creating and causing many disputes on various pages similarly love of Msomau for Barelvi topic and his interest in editing Salafism or Wahabi topics is the only reason of dispute.They both can utilize their editing experience on other topics.This is most neutral workable and solution of this continuous problem. Shabiha (talk) 05:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

And...that makes me think you need to be lumped into the "final warning" category above. Mezzomezzo's edits seem to be not only acceptable, but really necessary and important. Why would we topic ban him from an area that clearly needs a lot of clean up, and that he's willing to do? Qwyrxian (talk) 07:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I've tried to not directly defend myself until now, but perhaps it's in order. Shabiha, I am not a Salafi nor do I love Salafism any more than Sufism, or have any more interest in editing one article more than the other. And the thing is, I've told you that. I've told Msoamu that. I've made it clear more than once that I want nothing to do with ideologies or movements; I just want an objective presentation of information for readers of English Misplaced Pages, most of whom ostensibly have little experience with Muslim movements. You and Msoamu are both Barelvis and have made that clear on past versions of your respective user pages. And that's ok. Belonging to any movement, religion or ideology doesn't disqualify one's opinion; as Stephen Jay Gould said, objectivity is fairness in spite of bias, not denying one's own bias. The problem is that the two of you seem to have accounts solely for editing the pages on the Barelvi movement and its opponents, and promoting this world view - which would have been shown through reliable sources in my disputed edits - in which Barelvis believe that all of their opponents are part of a conspiracy against them, and anyone who criticizes Barelvism must be a Wahhabi. Six years is long enough for me to say confidently that I have seen this attitude demonstrated.

You want to make sure the movement isn't slandered, great. Misplaced Pages needs that. Shi'ite editors ensure that their sect isn't misrepresented. General Muslim editors ensure that anti-Muslim bigots can't misrepresent Islam, and objective non-Muslim editors ensure that Muslims can't paint an overly rosy picture of our religion. There are three areas which are lacking: people to keep Barelvism in check, Salafi editors to ensure they aren't defamed (most Salafi Wikipedians like Servant114 and DawudBeale left in 2009 when a major English-language Salafi website posted a polemical diatribe against Misplaced Pages), and Deobandi editors to ensure they aren't defamed (I have never, ever seen an open Deobandi on Misplaced Pages). There are some Ahl al-Hadith editors, but their English is awful and they aren't very active. So I positioned myself over both Barelvi and Salafi related topics simply because I saw a need for objective monitoring that wasn't being filled (in the case of Salafism articles for four years now, in the case of Barelvism articles, since I joined Misplaced Pages).

I am not a Salafi. I am not a Sufi. I do not have some sort of love for Salafism, nor for Sufism. I really don't care about these movements as they don't affect my personal life. I just want objectivity on this site. I am not always successful or correct and all good Wikipedians will freely admit that about themselves. But your constant accusations and, lately, subtle insinuations that I'm some Salafi in disguise are unwelcome and, given my frequent clarifications on my position from the movement, unneeded. So please, stop hinting or otherwise insinuating that I'm some secret Salafi editor out to defame your movement and let's all try to focus on the issue at hand: how will this content-conduct dispute be resolved? I swear to God - and even for Wikipedians who don't believe in one, the fact that I do should make the weight which this swear carries apparent - that I have zero problems at all with permanent, unending administrative monitoring of any and all edits I make. I say that because any inappropriate edits on my part are mistakes and I'm open to those mistakes being corrected, as was the case with In coctu ilis and GorgeCuster'sSabre. I have absolutely nothing to hide and such monitoring could even serve as a good form of evidence should I ever be accused of things like this again - I would always have someone who could vouch for that. There could be other solutions to, but at nearly two weeks I would just like someone with the necessary responsibility to carry out the decision.

I would prefer not to comment here again. I'm a long winded speaker and writer and however valid my comments might be, I know that merely reading them is a task. I just want this to be resolved soon so all concerned editors can move on and resume tending to Barelvi, Deobandi, Salafi, Wahhabi, Ahl al-Hadith, Sunni Tehreek etc. as normal. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The edits speaks themselves.I will not say any thing.You called me several times Barelvi I did not object,It is a terminology used by some to show entire South Asian Sunni Sufi movement in bad light.I respect your feelings but you should have avoided calling me names.I have always tried to contribute Misplaced Pages with positive intentions and objectives.I have always tried to contribute positively with an open mind.I am open to any corrections. Shabiha (talk) 14:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The edits speak for themselves...how? Are you claiming now that I'm lying when I tell you that I'm not Salafi (or part of any other movement for that matter)? And you're once again proving to me the lack of objectivity which brings me to these articles...Sunni Sufis in South Asia are composed of two groups: Deobandis and Barelvis. Once again, you seem unable to acknowledge what mainstream scholarship has accepted, and insist on claiming that Deobandism is excluded from Sufism and Sunni Islam...hence, the need for people like me who can ensure that Barelvi doctrine (or any other doctrine) is represented as subjective doctrine and not objective fact. In this case, yes, the edit does speak for itself. MezzoMezzo (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Whatever the value it might be, the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sunni Sufis and Salafi Jihadism is fairly demonstrative of what ends up happening to what would otherwise be productive, objective discussions on improving Misplaced Pages. MezzoMezzo (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear all, I was not willing to jump into arguments with any one here.I am not a party to this dispute despite that I was dragged here by MezzoMezzo.To tell the facts to Administrators and editors I am very humbly submitting this- MezzoMezzo claimed to disassociate himself from any movement.But he created and introduced majority of Articles belonging to Salafism or of a movement which is very close to it it is known as Zahiri and is based on literal thought which has influenced Salafism.

He edited following Articles on wikipedia,which clearly established his area of interest.He has many times in sequence nominated Sufism related pages for deletion and has removed large stuff from only Sufism related pages.I may provide proofs from his edit history,also proved by other editors. Shabiha (talk) 17:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

<deindent>I rewrote most of the BTC Touring articles or wrote them from scratch: I have no connection with the BTCC. That's a ridiculous allegation to make, that MezzoMezzo must be connected with Salafism. Mezzo has every right to create whatever he wants, as long as it complies with the guidelines - which, 99% of the time, it does. Also, you're lying about not being a party to this dispute, as you've been involved in several disputes across several articles. Lukeno94 (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - they edit the same articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose and comment A solution to intractable edit wars which I have very occasionally and reluctantly used (because it's hard and thankless work) is to warn everyone concerned that I will remove any edits that are not impeccably RS sourced or which do not accurately reflect the RS sources, and that I will block anyone who doesn't play nicely (not needed so far in practice). That works quite well with single articles where one "side" is clearly pushing pov more than the other, especially as I'm editing from a position of knowing nothing about the topic, so npov by definition. I'm not sure how it would play across a range of articles, but I can't see why we shouldn't warn all concerned that edits that aren't impeccably sourced and neutral will be reverted, and may be backed up by withdrawing editing rights. If we just pussyfoot around this, the problems will not go away Jimfbleak - talk to me? 20:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm down with that too, as long as it's undertaken. I don't think it's far fetched to say that the time I put into neutralizing and sourcing Misplaced Pages entries on Islam-related articles has yielded good results for both the sites and the readers. Islamic legal terms like Qiyas and Ijma are good examples of my efforts bringing almost worthless, unclear stubs to the level of acceptable articles, while the biographies I created of Islamic studies academics such as Dawud al-Zahiri, Camilla Adang, Siddiq Hasan Khan and so forth have not only added to the encyclopedia in the way of info but also inter-Wiki links for cited persons/authors. That work has come to a standstill on anything which Msoamu and Shabiha (and to a lesser extent, Hassafarooqi) turn their eyes. The examples of this are numerous, but in this section at Talk:Barelvi, there is the most encompassing, telling example of what working with either of them on Sufism-related articles is like: Barelvis (90% of all Muslims, actually) believe that when people die, they will be raised again at judgment day and Muhammad, the Muslim prophet, will be able to intercede with God on the behalf of sinners. Msoamu doesn't seem to understand that stating "Muhammad intercedes" is presenting dogmatic religious belief as objective fact is wrong, and doesn't seem to get why I'm insisting on "Muhammad, who Barelvis believe intercedes," because this intercession is Muslim religious belief and not an objective fact by the standards of Misplaced Pages. This is even more of a stumbling block when it comes to Barelvi beliefs about other groups, which neither of them will accept as a matter of opinion but rather as objective fact.

I'm using this as a telling example, not as some kind of slander; I'm trying to demonstrate that my efforts at neutralizing articles are simply not possible as it stands now, because I have other editors who seem to think that Misplaced Pages should represent their beliefs as objective facts. Running with what Jimbleak said above, this current situation is unworkable; the articles in which these editors have taken interest can not be improved, period, unless something is done. Maybe it needs a topic ban. Maybe it needs a final warning for all of us. Maybe it needs an admin to constantly monitor the pages in question and be ready to block any of us, them or me both, if we get out of line. I don't know, it's not up to me. But what I'm asking is for something to be done. Msoamu, for the past two weeks, has merely used this thread to make post after post about me, my beliefs (about which he knows almost nothing) and my edits; he has been entirely unrepentant and doesn't seem to possess any desire to move on. Now, given the comments above, Shabiha also seems content to simply sift through my old edits and created pages. Neither of them are looking for a solution, not here and not on the pages in question.

We've had a lot of good suggestions, but one of them, or several of them - again, the selection isn't up to me since I'm involved in this case - really should be implemented, and enforced, as all four of us (Msoamu, Shabiha, Hassanfarooqi and myself) have been warned. Given the recent escalation of personal attacks and the continued comments (none of them valid) about me personally, I don't see this issue going anywhere and I don't see Misplaced Pages's entries receiving needed improvements. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

One block

Yesterday Hassanfrooqi made this edit, yet again attacking MezzoMezzo. I warned him. Since his response repeated the attack, I have blocked for 3 days. This behavior has to stop. If people are unable to comment on edits and are instead obsessed with attacking the editor, then they can't edit here. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The response to your warning went beyond the original attack. A 3-day block was conservative. If the behavior repeats itself after the block expires, the editor should be indeffed.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:37, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Confusing page moves and deletions

I'm exceedingly confused as to what Deacon of Pndapetzim (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is up to with moving talkpage archivesuserspace pages around and deleting/undeleting them. I asked a while back what was up, but didn't get a useful answer. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks like he's just dumping everything from his own userspace. Perhaps with no intention of returning. Nothing, imo, to worry about. --regentspark (comment) 17:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The way I understand it, he's allowed to delete archives of his talk page (or anything else in his userspace) but not User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim itself. I don't see any need for admin actions here. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

... unless he actually moves his usertalkpage to an archive, and then tries to have it deleted (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, looking again, that is what happened. He moved it, deleted the moved page, then recreated his user talk without the history. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Can I get the history of my talk and user page deleted too? Volunteer Marek 19:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Me, too, please? Bielle (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Holy fornication, Batman ... he's done it more than once! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:48, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Abuse of admin rights

As an admin, Deacon would know as well as anyone else that user talkpages cannot be deleted; period. It appears that based on the logs, he has moved the contents and then deleted the new subpage more than once. This is a clear violation of the trust that the community provided him. "Retired" or not, this is an offensive and improper situation (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Since some of you idle dramaqueens insist on drawing attention to this, I'm streamlining my pages to facilitate the process of getting out. There is actually no policy that prevents me deleting my talkpage if I want to contrary to the assertion above (and per WP:DELTALK), but as it happens all but a fraction of my talk page is undeleteable due to its high number of edits and will remain available to view until I get a crat to delete it some time in the future. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of usertalkpage cannot be done by the editor themself, and you know that. Only in very rare circumstances will the usertalkpage be deleted upon retirement, and you also know that. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 22:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure why I'm commenting, since the damage is already done, but he's not just moving his old talk page and then deleting it (which, if determined to be a bad idea, could be reverted by another admin); he's moved most of his subpages (one at a time) to the same page, deleted it, then moved another pages to that page, and deleted it again. As a result, the histories of all those pages is going to be impossible to disentangle. That's not "streamlining my pages to facilitate the process of getting out". There's no "vanishing" type rationale for doing this. I suppose it's too late to get upset about it as long as he's leaving soon and requesting a desysop, but if he's planning on staying, I stongly object. Didn't another admin do something like this a long time ago, causing a giant uproar? --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

"As a result, the histories of all those pages is going to be impossible to disentangle." And that, of course, is why he has done it. Why doesn't someone with the power take away his tools immediately, before he makes any more messes that are advantageous to him, and are difficult, if not impossible, to clean up? He had proven he cannot be trusted. Bureaucrats, where are you? Bielle (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

They've got their own board ( Misplaced Pages:Bn#User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim ) but they can't do anything per constraints of policy. Can they be blocked, or would they be able to simply unblock themselves? NE Ent 01:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Technically, he could unblock himself. And seeing as he's already broken policy, I see no reason he wouldn't. Regardless, this could be construed as an emergency situation, in which case either per some policy I don't wish to bother finding or IAR an emergency desysopping can and should be performed. gwickwire_editing 04:37, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Both WP:Criteria for speedy deletion#U1 (policy) and WP:User pages#Deletion of user pages (guideline) disallow speedy deletion of a user's main talk page. Deacon of Pndapetzim has created a large WP:HISTMERGE at User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion. No independent admin would have fulfilled its many deletions, G6 or otherwise. For convenience, these are the move logs relevant to the main user and user talk pages: , . Flatscan (talk) 05:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I plan to challenge the deletion at WP:Deletion review, as no justification has been presented. Another relevant page is WP:Courtesy vanishing#Deletion of user talk pages (guideline), which includes the sentence, "User talk pages should never be moved to become user subpages to facilitate deletion." Flatscan (talk) 05:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I looked at the logs of User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim after DoP's comment, "all but a fraction of my talk page is undeleteable due to its high number of edits". I found one remaining archive at User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion/Archive XXI (history, info), covering 2005–May 2012 (when it was move-archived). As DoP wrote, it is mostly EdwardsBot delivering WP:Misplaced Pages Signpost after late 2011. I'm not sure why DoP was unable to delete it, as its info page lists 3500 edits, and the bigdelete limit is at 5000, according to WP:Deletion process#Pages with many revisions. He did successfully delete User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/Archive I through XX (my guess is cut and paste archives). Flatscan (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Ive done some digging, there are 61 pages that have been combined in that one page, If an admin is interested in undeleting and restoring the individual pages I have some information that will be useful, and make it easier. Werieth (talk) 06:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Please can you post that information under the DRV to assist anyone contemplating undeleting this mess. Spartaz 14:25, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• its not something that is easily posted on wiki, nor should it be made public as it may violate a few foundation policies about releasing information on deleted content. If an admin wants to undelete please either drop a note on my talk page or email me. Werieth (talk) 01:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't Deacon be blocked promptly to prevent any continuation of this? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Yet with his admin-bit, if I remember right, he could just unblock himself.. gwickwire_editing 17:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The Bureaucrats don't seem to have any interest in stopping this misuse of the admin tools. In fact, they are downright patronizing about the complaint. I don't get it. I am quite sure the rest of us, admin or not, wouldn't be allowed any such privilege. Bielle (talk) 17:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Removal of permissions -Nathan Johnson (talk) 17:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Unblocking oneself is grounds for an emergency desysop. --Rschen7754 19:57, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Contrary to apparent belief, bureaucrats are not allowed to punitively remove the admin flag. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:19, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

In what respect would it be punitive? The evidence here is that DofP is using his admin powers to do something he shouldn't be doing, the desysop would be to prevent him from continuing to do it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Again, only ArbCom is authorized to desysop people. --Rschen7754 05:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Bureaucrats idle. Should we notify Jimbo?

Since it appears that the bureaucrats are failing to take any action, and it is clear that this is an emergenmcy situation (per gwickwire), perhaps we should inform Jimbo of the abuse? He might be able to do something. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar 18:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm probably not going to pursue this, since (as I said above) the damage is done, and it appears he isn't going to stay active, and ArbCom is such a hassle. But if you want him desysopped, you're going to have to go to ArbCom. That is - literally - the only way to desysop someone against their will. Jimbo won't do it anymore, and Crats (even if they wanted to) are forbidden from involuntarily desysopping someone without direction from ArbCom. Whether ArbCom will desysop... or instead chastise/admonish/warn him... is an interesting question. I know what I'd do, not sure what they'll do. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, on reflection, I think the best thing to do is to wait and see what happens in the next day or two. This will quite possibly resolve itself on its own. I note that he has not done this anymore, ever since this thread was started. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

If this "resolves itself on its own" in the sense that "he does not do this anymore"... can I get the history of MY talk page and user page deleted? Why or why not? Volunteer Marek 21:22, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I meant "resolves itself" in the sense of "he requests a desysop and retires". It's unacceptable to me that he does this and stays active, but that doesn't appear to be the case. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

"Since it appears that the bureaucrats are failing to take any action..." I've yet to see anyone in all of this illustrate what they would like the bureaucrats to do that we are actually allowed to do according to policy. I keep looking at Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats#Removal of permissions and I see nothing relevant. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:17, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

If you want someone desysopped, you have to go to ArbCom. Not commenting on whether a desysop is appropriate here. --Rschen7754 21:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I must've read the policy wrong (trouting self now). Stewards can emergency desysop, as would be appropriate imo now. gwickwire_editing 03:17, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

They have the power to, but they very rarely interfere with large wikis like enwiki and dewiki for such a relatively trivial matter like this. But if you don't believe me, m:SRP is thataway. --Rschen7754 05:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I wrote the current version of that policy in 2009 and I'm a bureaucrat-steward, so I might have an overly detailed perspective on the topic, but no, this isn't an emergency, under the GRU, CRAT, or ADMIN policies. An emergency is where someone is doing something that is very harmful or can't be undone easily and the person has shown an unwillingness to stop or is perceived to be likely to engage in very harmful or permanent actions if not stopped. If I perceive correctly, the subject's last actions were over 24 hours ago. They consisted of deleting user talk pages with less than 5,000 revisions. The subject's deletions were (and are) reversible, they do not impact the ability of other users to edit nor directly harm other users, and the subject has not "wheel warred" or otherwise indicated he is likely to perform very harmful or permanent actions. Additionally, while it appears his deletions are against policy, no one has even attempted to obtain a consensus to overturn them at WP:DRV. Therefore, they are not an emergency and are best dealt with by Arbcom (if Arbcom so chooses to take a case). It's further worth noting that under Arbcom's own emergency procedures Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Removal_of_permissions, this situation would be unlikely to be an emergency because the subject is not actively using (and has not for 24 hours) his advanced permissions in a harmful or destructive manner. MBisanz 06:03, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it the case then, that any admin can undo DofP's actions? DofP's deletions are a first action, the undo would be a second action, and a (theoretical) third action would be the forbidden wheel-warring, if I understand correctly. If that's true, then -- without concern for DofP's status -- why doesn't an uninvolved admin simply restore these pages (utilizing the help offered above) putting things back to the staus quo ante, then delete all the pages one by one from their original names (without the obfuscating move DofO utilized), except the user talk page, which can be courtesy blanked. Then, a block for DofP would seem to be in order for blatantly misusing his bit. He then would have the choice of unblocking himself, and being desysoped for it, or turning in his bit, which he really doesn't need anyway because he's going bye-bye.

The whole megillah does bring up a more general question, which is what to do when admins go off the deep end -- not that it happens that often; still, it would be nice to have policy which says that when the signs are that an admin is clearing the decks leave, he or she no longer needs the admin bit, because they no longer have the best interests of Misplaced Pages at heart. The bit, after all, doesn't belong to them, it's been given so that they perform specific tasks in aid of the project. Once they turn away from that, the bit should be removed. It's silly to wait to "see what develops" when every indication -- including messages from DofP on his talk page -- are clear that this admin wants no part of the project anymore. That's fine, that's his perogative and his choice, but if so, there's no reason he needs the bit anymore. We should not leave it to the (obviously) departing admin to decide when to give it up, because his or her personal concerns are no longer congruent with those of the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I decided to start a DRV: Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2013 February 24. --Rschen7754 09:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I just closed the DRV. Seriously? Seven days of process wanking. over this? Just undo it already. Spartaz 14:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah... I meant that because there was the option of going to DRV to undo the action, it wasn't an emergency. Not that we should race ahead and file a DRV. MBisanz 17:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

My thoughts were to start a process to at least do something measured about the matter to pacify the people wanting a desysop, without an admin going in there and reverting everything and then having Deacon delete the pages again. I'm rather disappointed that my middle-of-the-road proposal was speedy closed. --Rschen7754 18:37, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Beyond My Ken, if the Deacon's actions could be reverted, and as there is a pretty unanimous consensus that these self-deletions are wrong, simply restore these pages and undo his actions. Cavarrone (talk) 09:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Floq is right here, the best thing to do is see how this flushes out, and clean up afterwards. There is no need to overreact. His actions are obviously out of policy but they aren't affecting any other user directly and can be easily undone. As Rschen points out, only Arb can strip the bit outside of an emergency. All this talk of emergency bit-stripping is very premature. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:37, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Again, if these actions are fine (which they might be), then when and if I put up the retired flag on my user page, can *I* get the history of the user page and talk page deleted? Volunteer Marek 17:48, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's well oiled and effective de-sysop process strikes again. It is quite ridiculous then most logical solution for blatant abuse of admin privileges is waiting and hoping that abuser is nice enough to do everyone favour of retiring voluntarily.--Staberinde (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

As I've said elsewhere, this is a victimless "crime". His deletions may be out of process but this isn't the same as an abusive block, so I recommend we keep things in perspective. We have deletion review, which is the proper way to deal with this. As for retiring, that seems to be his objective and he has stated as much. This isn't normally a basis for desysoping someone, it is a reason to have a discussion, get a solution, and then if he were to interfere with that solution, you could entertain stronger action. No one seems concerned that we have a very long tenured editor, who has the admin bit, who is upset and leaving. That is a bigger issue than the small amount of work it would take to undelete his talk page via delete review. I'm not so worried about the temporary loss of access to his talk page. Everyone here knows that if deletion review says to undelete, it will be restored. Nothing is permanently broken. I'm more concerned about the human being who feels disenfranchised enough to leave. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:59, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

It may very well be victimless. But then the question is - do regular editors get the same privilege when they retire or is this a right reserved for administrators? Accepting that he does indeed retire, there's two ways this could go. Either someone undoes all these deletions, or not. If not, then it should be clarified somewhere that this is something that *any* editor, admin or not, is allowed to request (since they cannot do it themselves) to have done.

Otherwise, there needs to be an explicit and obvious statement somewhere that the right to obliterate one's talk page history into "oblivion" (Deacon's choice of words) is a right that for some reason comes bundled in with the standard admin tool set.Volunteer Marek 22:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

My understanding of policy is that it is not ok to do this. Being an admin doesn't grant special privileges for anything, you and I agree more than you probably know. Assuming good faith, I do think he is simply mistaken on his interpretation based on his actual comments (it isn't a common topic, after all) and I know that we can undo the delete tomorrow, or next week, so zero will be lost. Undeleting is a trivial thing to do with the admin tools. What we can't undo is losing the editor, so that takes a higher priority. In other words, lets not let the bureaucratic process make us lose sight of what really matters most here: people. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:25, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Dennis Brown, I think that you don't understand the problem if you're calling it "trivial". WP:How to fix cut-and-paste moves#How to undo a history merge is relevant reading that covers an example of two pages. According to Werieth's comment above, there were 61 pages merged together. I have some thoughts on extracting just the main user talk page, but I think that the merging is practically impossible to undo completely, short of restoring from a WP:Database download. Restricting the target date range to after May 2012 (earlier history at User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion/Archive XXI) makes selective undeletion considerably less difficult, but not necessarily easy. Flatscan (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

There are only 100 revisions in the date range relevant to the user talk page. Most can be distinguished by edit summary alone (available in the undeletion interface), and page size identifies the remaining few. Flatscan (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Trivial != Quick. The logs show his every move like a recipe, which can be reverse engineered. It only requires time and patience. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Information is lost when pages are histmerged: there is no link between a revision and its original page. Viewing the contents of 1,055 revisions (>33 MB of exported XML) is not "trivial". I challenge you to find all the revisions of User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/Remezov in User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion. It's not difficult if one understands what information is (not) available. Flatscan (talk) 05:36, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

"Trivial" != "doesn't make me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon every time I look at it", apparently. Is there any reason that we actually need to undelete this? Can we just say for the record that "This is not cool, nobody do it in the future" and leave it at that? Why, yes, I am extremely lazy; why do you ask? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:Criteria for speedy deletion#U1 (policy), WP:User pages#Deletion of user pages (guideline), and WP:Courtesy vanishing#Deletion of user talk pages (guideline) were not enough to deter DoP. There seems to have been another specific incident some time before WT:Courtesy vanishing#Deleting user talk pages and WT:Courtesy vanishing#RfC on deleting user talk pages (October–November 2010). Flatscan (talk) 05:36, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

All i's must be dotted and all t's must be dotted; thank goodness we're not a bureaucracy ... it's my (Non-administrator comment) understanding that all 847 {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} can view the content of the pages, despite the Deacon's attempted cover-up / overzealous desire for post facto privacy / cleaning up after themselves. Not worth a fuss. NE Ent 15:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

If there is no reason to actually undelete this thing, then obviously there is also no really good reason to deny talk page deletion requests of non-admins in 99% of cases. I am sure they wouldn't even demand numerous page merges first, so undeletion would be even less issue then it is here.--Staberinde (talk) 16:26, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The thing is that there's no way to tell whether something's in the 99% (probably too high a figure anyway) or the 1%, since it depends on what other user's need for the page as a reference. This one case doesn't tell us anything about the general case of which talk pages are okay to delete and which aren't. So, for this case, if anyone needs it we can do undeletion, but since it's kinda a pain, we won't do it unless they ask. But generally, people shouldn't need to ask, so as a general rule, we don't delete talk pages. We can totally have it both ways; no reason we can't. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, no. There is nothing in Deacon's talk page archive that is in any way critical to the encyclopedia. Or for the matter useful to the encyclopedia. There is, however, sufficient information to identify him/her in real life, and he/she has decided to protect his/her privacy on his/her way out. There is no policy that states we cannot ever delete talk pages (only guidelines). This has been a massive over-reaction all round. Just leave things as they are. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 16:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Though I completely agree that this has been a massive overreaction, privacy concerns were never mentioned, so I don't see that being relevant in this case. Even if privacy had been the reason, it wouldn't justify doing such a pain-in-the-ass history merge of everything; it should have just been straight-up deleted and/or he should have requested that select edits be suppressed. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Deacon has stated that this was done for privacy reasons: Catfish Jim and the soapdish 17:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I took that to mean that he just wanted some privacy (i.e.: "stay out of my stuff"), not that there were privacy concerns (i.e.: "there was non-public information that needs to stay non-public"). The latter is protected under policy, but the former is just a "well, that's nice" sort of thing. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't merely an 'overreaction', it was a mean-spirited wild goose chase. Its end result is not merely to reveal my sandbox along with some notifications and Edwardsbot spam, but more importantly (for you guys) to reveal the character and weaknesses of many of the participants here, as well as the AN/I (or public IRC) platform as a whole. I hope you guys make better use of that revelation than you will those Edwardsbot messages, though I am almost certain you won't!

The best of it is that, for all the bloodlust and frenzied calls for recrimination, I was never actually asked to restore its talk page contents (which was a series of ticks that would have taken 30 secs to 1 min). I would have done so on my own initiative if you all weren't so petty and mean, but despite that I did in fact offer to do so in an email to the crats/EVula. The only response I got was a repetition of the mob's poorly sourced view about my talkpage rights, which is sad for you guys 'cause it would have saved you a lot of wasted time (time you would also have saved if you paid more attention to what I said at the top than you did to the hysterical cries around it).

And indeed Jim, your interpretation of my remarks was correct. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, what bullshit; admins do this to hide things, citing the nebulous umbrella of "privacy" every time. Try researching why David Gerard was stripped of CU/oversight in 2009. Whoops! Down the memory hole that went. Tarc (talk) 13:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Considering that everyone is pretty much in agreement that the deletion of talk pages is wrong (and that DofP was wrong to do so), I don't understand the repeated question of "do I get this right as well?" This isn't a right that non-admins are being denied, it's a one-off event where an administrator did something inappropriate, and can be reversed by undeleting the pages (which I definitely think should be done, though I'm not terribly surprised that nobody has tried yet, given the annoying complexity of the moves and deletions). EVula // talk // ☯ // 01:31, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand it to mean, if an admin gets by with it why can't a regular editor? The implication that, since he's an admin & nothing is being done, he's getting special treatment. Since the page has been undeleted, that argument doesn't hold any more, but I can understand where they were coming from. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I have undeleted User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion but will not attempt a history reconstruction of the individual pages. Everyone can now see the full history, just like admins did when it was deleted. If there is actual need to get the histories untangled, some further effort can be made (which would probably include redeletion and then partial undeletions and moves), but it doesn't seem to be worth the effort. Note that while this "oblivion" page includes some talk pages (hence the undeletion), the vast majority were not talk pages; also note that the actual main talk page archives apparently were not (and never) deleted, but hidden away at places like User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion/Archive XXI (with six page moves recently...). Fram (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• It looks like that oblivion page has been re-deleted, interestingly, it says that the date of deletion is the 22nd. Lukeno94 (talk) 11:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

At my request, Fram did a history split and moved the talk page revisions to User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim/Archive XXII. DoP blanked it, as allowed by WP:User pages#Removal of comments, notices, and warnings. The sandboxes, draft articles, and cut and paste archives remaining under User:Deacon of Pndapetzim/oblivion are all covered by CSD U1. Flatscan (talk) 05:39, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Tea Party movement; looking for community input

• Now at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Tea Party movement / US politics KillerChihuahua 06:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Tea_Party_movement. RNealK (talk) 23:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, they changed it. The sub-page here is still being edited, too. KillerChihuahua 23:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

User:Gaba p playing the race card in content dicussions

Third: your mention of Chavez's crass comments is borderland racist. Aside from the crude spelling, the accusation of racism is a clear attempt to chill the discussion. I've seen exactly the same tactic before, repeatedly accusing another editor of being racist, repeat often enough and mud sticks. He had a chance to apologise, instead he simply repeated it. The only example of racism here is his presumption I'm white in making such an accusation. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:19, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It looks to me like charges of near-racist comments (or charges of charging someone of near-racist comments) are the least of the problems going on at that talk page. Trench warfare appears to have broken out there, in fact, and the name-calling is just a symptom. Sounds like DRN didn't work for you guys - might I suggest mediation or an RfC to resolve the issue, rather than everyone continuing to throw grenades at each other? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

No change is too trivial to to revert war over if I make it and he tries to start arguments over the most ridiculously trivial things , . Yes I know its childish and no I don't intend to play his games but if you have someone going at you constantly it gets wearing and you snap. Why is no one prepared to do something about this guy hounding me constantly. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

This is just an attempt at sidetracking the efforts at the talk page where we've been a month re-factoring a section after Wee deleted it with no consensus to do so. There are currently four editors over there agreeing to edit in a given version of the section and he just keeps introducing changes with neither source nor good reason going directly against the wording present in the source used. I'll repeat what I said over there:

• I do believe referring to the official statements by the president of a Latin American nation as crass comments is borderline racist, as I believe referring to the actions of a female president as a "hissy fit" (as you did not long ago) is borderline misogynistic (and I told you that much at the time). I'd suggest striking that part of your comment.

It would appear Wee has a distinctive contempt for presidents Chavez and Kirchner but it is definitely not ok for those feelings to permeate into his WP editing. Wee, your accusations of hounding and constant personal attacks ("disruptive", "childish", etc..) have gotten really old by now. It'd be nice if you could just drop them.

Please note I did not call him a "racist" but he did call me a "dick" earlier today (not the first time by a long shot). Regards. Gaba p (talk) 16:54, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I am a volunteer at WP:DRN, and I tried to assist with this content dispute. There are nationalistic (UK vs Argentina) undertones permeating the dispute. The DRN case failed to reach a resolution. There is quite a bit of edit-warring happening, although I don't think the 3RR limit has been reached. The big problem here is the tendentious editing ... some of the editors are filibustering and refusing to work towards a consensus. My advice is for an admin to protect the page for 2 weeks or so; and to initiate an RfC. I'm trying to think of how to frame the RfC question, but dont have a great idea yet. --Noleander (talk) 17:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) With regard to "reciprocating" vs. "in return for": The two are basically synonymous in this context, and it is not identified as a quote, so I don't believe "stick to the wording of the source" is required. However, making such an edit during the middle of a content dispute seems like a bad idea, particularly if the other party is inclined to pick at it. I'd stick to editing only what absolutely has to be done in such cases, and leave the language "polishing" for a later time and perhaps editors uninvolved in the current controversy. To pick a grammar (not style) point, I believe the comma preceding "in return for" doesn't belong, or "reciprocating" needs "for" after it (i.e. it should be either "...sovereignty claim in return for Argentina's..." or "...sovereignty claim, reciprocating for Argentina's...").

As far as calling a country's leader's comments "crass" (and without reference to or knowledge of the particular comments involved), I don't see anything inherently nationalistic or discriminatory about it – the leaders of many countries have made crass ("coarse, crude, not refined or sensible") comments at one time or another, and have likely had them described as such in mainstream reliable sources. "Hissy-fit" is more commonly gender-related and colloquial. —— 18:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I also refererred to Cameron as pretentious prick and I'm also on record as describing Gordon Brown's resignation as a hissy fit. Most former soldiers regard politicians with a healthy degree of contempt. None of which actually feeds through into content I suggest thats a complete red herring. I'd also comment the nationalistic undertones are very one sided ie come from one party.

None of the above justify calling another editor a racist, this is purely about chilling discussion with unfounded and unsustainable allegations. I do however note the person making such an allegations is making presumptions that are of themselves racist in nature. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, everyone cool down. This seems all too familiar.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• As mentioned in the past few times there were here - interaction ban time - its clear they will never get along. Moxy (talk) 07:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Before this degenerates much further, may I ask the small question of "what is the admin action being requested?" Blackmane (talk) 09:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Could you actually do something to stop Gaba P baiting me please.

I am tired of the frivolous complaints here, I am tired of him going around telling everyone I am blocking things or alleging I am engaged in misconduct, I am tired of having to defend myself against frivolous allegations of misconduct by this guy but most of all I'm tired of this guy's constant personal attacks.

This is entirely one sided and stems from the fact he was blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Alex79818, for which he has conducted a vendetta against me ever since. As its one sided I would like a one way interaction ban please. Make it two way if I abuse it but you have my word that I won't. Wee Curry Monster talk 12:52, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok I think this has gone far enough. Wee has been accusing me of being a sock puppet of user User:Alex79818 for over a year now. After Wee first accused me of this (Feb 2012) I was blocked by admin User:Nick-D. The block was lifted after I gave away my right to anonymity to an admin (Wee knows the RLI of this user so the admin, User:JamesBWatson, could compare and see I was not that person) Wee was not convinced and since then his accusations have not stopped. Actually they have gotten worse. He doesn't imply it anymore, he is here now directly stating I am that user. This needs to stop.

At every ANI we were involved in since early 2012 (~3-4) he repeated the same accusations and I repeated my good faith proposition to once again give away my right to anonymity to some willing admin so he/she could check that I was not that user. No admin (except from the first one who ended up lifting my block a year ago) ever took up on my offer; Wee's accusations were simply ignored and his vitriol eventually dissipated until a new event like this one emerged.

He now is asking that I be banned accused of being such a sock puppet so I think it would be better if the matter could be put to rest once and for all. This is my proposal: I will do absolutely anything it is required from me to prove I am not the user Wee accuses me of. I am prepared to give any admin here access to my FB and G+ accounts and will submit myself to any test that might be necessary to determine I am not that person. If I can't convince the admin I am not the person Wee accuses me of being, I will retire from WP myself. If on the other hand, the admin can check for him/herself I am not that person then I ask that Wee be banned from interacting with me. I believe this to be the only way his accusations and constant attacks will ever stop.

Finally: please stop by the talk page of the article to see where the personal attacks and disruptive editing were coming from. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 13:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Point of order: Wee did not say you are that user in his above statement, merely that you were blocked as a sock of that user.

That said, the current issue is your assertion that Wee's statement was "racist." That needs to be withdrawn, as it's well agreed his comment was not racist. Once that's out of the way, we can look into the rest, if necessary. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Very well. Although I can not change what I believe I hereby withdraw my comment about Wee's Chavez remark being "borderline racist". I'll be more careful next time about commenting on what I could perceive as being "borderline racist".

Now regarding the issue of constant sock puppet accusations by Wee: here are the diffs where he accused me of being a sock puppet of said user since last year (there could be more lost in between): 22 Jun 2012, 21 Sep 2012, 23 Sep 2012, 17 Dec 2012, 16 Jan 2013, 16 Jan 2013, 29 Jan 2013, 30 Jan 2013. Not counting the times he casually brings it up like he did here today. So I repeat the proposal I made above. Wee can provide the RLI of that blocked user and I will submit myself to absolutely any test that a voluntary admin might believe to be necessary in order to confirm I am not that person. If I fail to convince him/her then I will voluntarily retire from WP. If it can be proven I am not that editor then I ask for Wee Curry Monster to be banned from interacting with me. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 15:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

If you're saying you'll make that offer again then I'll make the same response as last time. Ignoring WP:OUTING concerns for a moment, it would be trivial for an editor minded to sockpuppetry to make up an identity and even if Curry Monster had got it wrong there is almost no chance that the name would be the same as that provided by a sockmaster.

Unless they were really quite stupid, a sockmaster would not give the same name as Curry Monster. A non-sockmaster also would not give the same name as Curry Monster. That your claimed RL identity does not match one provided by Curry Monster proves nothing because there are no circumstances in which you would ever have both given the same name.

Here's the facts. You were blocked as a sockpuppet of Alex79818. More than one admin at the time opined that the evidence that you were the same person was convincing. And we can drive a coach and horses through the logic that saw you unblocked.

Finally, the best way for you to avoid Curry Monster would be to avoid areas where he is likely to be around. That would be the Falklands for a start. And if, as you propose, an editor is to be sanctioned, it seems to me rather more logical that it should be for the editor who has already been warned and then blocked for personal attacks in the present discussion (then it was accusations of lying), and who has been brought here because of yet more personal attacks. Kahastok talk 20:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

So your solution for having Wee stop attacking and accusing me of sock-puppetry is that I stop editing? And that sounds reasonable to you? Gaba p (talk) 21:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

For editors here not aware: Kahastok and Wee were topic-banned not long ago from editing Gibraltar related articles. Their team behaviour over there (defending each other's edits and actions) is a clear reflection of what goes on at Falkland related articles (clearly seen in Kahastok's comment above). They have both quite a distinctive pro-British position which they attempt to enforce in articles covering Gibraltar and the Falklands, both former British colonies.

Kahastok: Wee Curry Monster knows the RLI of that user. It's not just a name, it's his true identity as a person. I am not offering to give just my name to any admin that volunteers, I am offering to submit myself to absolutely any test to assert my identity and confirm I am not that person. If, like Wee, you too believe I am that editor then I offer you the same deal: if I can prove I am not that editor by once again giving away my right to anonymity and submitting myself to any test considered necessary, then you get an interaction ban on me.

Just to be clear: I am not looking for sanctions on anybody here; unlike Wee and Kahastok who have been trying to have me banned for quite some time now. I just don't want to leave yet another ANI knowing that whenever Wee feels like throwing mud at me, the sock puppetry accusations will resurface again. If Wee makes here a pledge to not accuse me of being a sock puppet of that editor again then this can be dropped instantly. Otherwise I see no other way around this. An editor can't possibly be allowed to accuse another editor of being a sock puppet time and again with no consequences whatsoever.
If giving away my right to anonymity in WP and agreeing to submit myself to any test considered necessary are not enough to put an end to sock puppetry accusations then what is? Regards. Gaba p (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Correction, some time ago whilst in bad state mentally, as it happens I suffer from PTSD from my service in the British Army, I went through a period of being quite uncivil. It was uncharacteristic, I acknowledged my faults, accepted a topic ban and I've not repeated the same behaviour since. Constantly bringing up a case from the past, something that is painful for me to acknowledge but which is actually irrelevant is contrary to WP:CIVIL. Its trying to muddy the waters and its not the first time Gaba P has done it.

Sadly it seems on wikipedia that once sanctioned for any reason, it can be dragged up with impunity purely to cause personal anguish. Pointing fingers at the mentally ill seems to be a common bloodsport on here.

I just want to put Gaba P's comments into context his initial unblock request was refused, as the sock puppet case was compelling, he was later given the benefit of the doubt after assistance from me and later warned not to continue the personal attacks in the same vein. User:Alex79818 plagued me for years, despite that I gave Gaba P the benefit of the doubt and co-operated with having him unblocked, only for that to be repaid by Gaba P conducting a vendetta ever since trying to get me sanctioned. If he had left me alone, if he hadn't started the frivolous cases at ANI, then I would have felt no need to comment on the sock puppet case at all. As noted above he was recently blocked for personal attacks and has come back doing the same. That has to be the worst none apology I've seen here in a while. He managed to repeat the same allegation three times.

And no I'm not after him banned, I just want the constant personal attacks stopped. I don't seek interaction with him, he seeks me out wherever I edit. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

A number of corrections are needed after Wee's comment above.

1. He never "cooperated" with my unblock. He didn't even bother stopping by my talk page after I was blocked following an accusation by him. This can easily be checked by going through my block archive. I searched and found by myself the information that he knew the RLI of this blocked user and Wee only provided it after I asked an admin to request it from him. Again, this can all be easily confirmed looking at my block archive.
2. I've started only 2 cases at ANI: the first after Wee refused to stop re-factoring my comments (which ended up with him agreeing no to do it again) and the second one after he and Kahastok completely deleted a section from an article with no consensus. The section in question could only be re-installed a couple of days ago after a month of work by at least 6 editors and both these editors attempted to remove it on sight once again: .
3. Wee is definitely after me being banned, at least from Falkland related articles. He even asked that much not long ago. When the admin suggested that he too be topic banned from Falkland related articles he said "fuck wikipedia, I'm out of here" (never really left)
4. "he seeks me out wherever I edit", he edits (almost?) exclusively in Falkland and Gibraltar articles. If I edit on any Falkland related article he will be there. I am a part of the Falkland Islands work group just like Wee but unlike him I have other interests too. I have so far edited in no more than 4-5 Falkland related articles of the several dozens around, yet Wee still accuses me of following him around.

Wee, I will not bother commenting on your accusations of "personal attacks" since they are simply a way to distract attention from the fact that you have still not agreed to stop accusing me of being a sock puppet. You either agree to stop your accusations or we look for admin to check whether I am or not the same person as that blocked user. If I have to once again give away my right to anonymity because of your constant accusations and once again an admin decides I am not that person then you get an interaction ban on me. You can't expect me to just sit down and take your "sock-puppet" accusations whenever you feel like throwing mud at me. One way or another this needs to stop. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Again, point of order re: your #1: If you had followed the diff, you'd have seen that the unblocking admin was convinced in part by an email from Wee. That he did not comment on your talk page is irrelevant. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I see diffs are being abused again to paint a misleading picture, see , , I self-reverted shortly after the diffs presented above. I realised two wrongs don't make a right and fixed it, including an apology to the originating editor. Wee Curry Monster talk 00:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: that email from Wee was only issued after I asked admin JamesBWatson to check into it after I serendipitously found out that Wee knew this user's RLI by myself. Wee absolutely never bothered to stop by my talk page to make any kind of comment after making the accusation and getting me blocked and most certainly did not send that email out of the kindness of his heart. He did so because an administrator asked him to and only after I had revealed my RLI as a last resort to get my account back.

Note that he still refuses to address the point of calling me a sock puppet which means he has no intention of dropping it. I can not accept that this editor has the privilege of accusing me of being a sock puppet every time he wishes to. How is that not a gross breach of WP:CIVIL? What else can I do to stop these accusations other than what I've already proposed? Gaba p (talk) 00:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As an outside comment with no interaction with any of the above, I can say that whenever I have seen Gaba p and WCM come up at noticeboards recently (this year) it ALWAYS ends up with WCM bringing up Gaba was blocked as a sockpuppet. (Erroneously as it turns out). Can an admin please tell WCM to stop doing this unless he actually thinks Gaba is a sockpuppet, and to take that accusation to SPI. Its getting very tiresome and serves no purpose other than to deliberately wind up Gaba as anyone can see above. And no hiding behind 'well I didnt say you WERE a sockpuppet'. Bringing it up at every opportunity is deliberately planting the idea. Its just as bad. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The block and unblock discussion is here User talk:Gaba p/Archive 1.

A condition of his unblock was to stop personal attacks to edit constructively and collaboratively. He has continued to be confrontational and aggressive and has pursued a vendetta against me ever since.

The faux outrage about any mention of the sock puppet case is merely a distraction tactic from the issue of his battleground mentality. I bring it up because it is relevant, nothing more, nothing less. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Noting that:

1- this has been going for over a year now and Wee shows absolutely no intentions of dropping his constant accusations (even regarding my repeated requests that he stops doing so as "faux outrage") and

2- he comments on my "battleground mentality" when he can't even bring himself to agree to stop attacking me with false accusations of being a sock puppet,

I believe it is time to address this issue in an ANI report of its own. Unless an admin here proposes another solution I'll be opening a new ANI to deal specifically with this in the coming days. I refuse to accept that this user can simply decide not to stop calling me a sock puppet. Finally: please any editor reading this head on over to the talk page of the article where this started and see for yourselves who has the battleground mentality. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

You've been warned before about threatening to take people to ANI as well. It very rarely helps.

I don't believe that Curry Monster is accusing you of sockpuppetry here. But it is not unreasonable of him to point out that since being unblocked with a stern warning to stop personally attacking people, remove the POV from your edits and remove the battleground mentality. You have continued to personally attack people and continued with the battleground mentality, and continued to edit from a POV - to the extent that not so long ago, in our current discussion, you were actually citing Argentina's foreign minister as a neutral and reliable source. And let's remember which editor has already been blocked at ANI - when discussing the same point - for repeatedly accusing other editors of lying. It wasn't Curry Monster. And it wasn't me.

Even when you were unblocked, your style was seen as "aggressive and confrontational", and it has not become significantly less so. The fact that it was a sockpuppetry block is irrelevant to this point - if it had been a 3RR block the point would be the same. You were told to change your style and you have not done so. Kahastok talk 14:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Kahastok's continued attacks on me teaming with Wee are not unusual since he behaves the same way everywhere (just ask User:Michael_Glass, or User:Martinvl, or User:Ecemaml who dealt with them in Gibraltar articles). Talk about abusing diffs, I used the Buenos Aires Herald as a source which happened to be quoting said minister. When that source was questioned I immediately (exactly 20 minutes later) changed the proposed wording and source used. Incidentally, notice Kahastok's completely random mud throwing.

This is exactly why I'm proposing (notice the difference with "threatening" Kahastok?) to open a new ANI to deal specifically with this. Both Wee and Kahastok keep looking for ways to accuse me of anything instead of addressing the issue of repeated accusation of sock puppetry. I'll wait until tomorrow and, if nothing else is proposed, open a new report. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Stone me. If there is going to be another war... I think we know where it's gonna start _{What you mean, it already has?!?!?!} Basket _Feudalist 18:30, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Gaba p and Langus txt, Lord knows I did not want to comment or interact with you again, but Gaba, your tactics never change and editors and administrators need to know the truth. You keep trying to "change the subject of your abusive attacks and comments" hoping they forget the real problem here. Well, I will never forget. I tried to make some edits on the "article", and to defend an obvious untruths against another editor, and this is what I got. It should be noted that it was on YOUR talkpage, even though it is signed by Langus txt, that is strange enough, but then you left it there until I found it and removed it myself. You should be blocked for that alone, along with your "alter-ego?" Langus txt. Mugginsx (talk) 19:42, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, whilst I saw how you were treated by both, it has to be noted that Langus-TxT has made an effort to edit in a more collegial manner of late. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:20, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe it, perhaps he likes to play to both sides, I really do not know. One thing I do know, he is NOT sorry. Mugginsx (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

For the love of god Mugginsx, not again. User Mugginsx appears out of the blue every time to defend Wee and viciously attack me (and sometimes editor Langus too). This user does not take part of the discussions in any way but nevertheless shows up whenever Wee is in trouble. This is the third ANI this user has showed up to do the exact same thing: always asking that I be sanctioned in one way or another. Your comment on editor Langus is so amazingly random I am lost for words. You appeared in my talk page accusing me of stalking Wee (just like he does, nevermind it is completely untrue) and Langus responded to you. I don't even want to consider that you might be accusing me and Langus of what I think you are accusing me and Langus, so I'll just leave it at that.

Wee's replies just reinforce my idea to open a new ANI to deal with the constant accusations of sock puppetry. He's had the chance to either agree to not do it again or take me to SPI as Only in death does duty end suggested above but instead has chosen to continue attacking me aided by Kahastok and now apparently Mugginsx too. This needs to stop. Gaba p (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Gaba for proving my point. For heavens sakes, did you not even read what you linked here? Here we go again back to "changing the subject" Your characterization of my remark on your page does not have any similarity to the truth. My relationship with any editor you mention is true ONLY IN YOUR MIND. On the other hand, you believe you can make the seamy attack aimed at me in the "first person" on YOUR page look just "innocent and random". For once you have made me laugh. Mugginsx (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Mugginsx please stop for a second and think what exactly you are talking about. I characterized your uncalled for attack on my talk page that I was "stalking Wee" as nonsense and I have absolutely no problem saying it here too. It was and still is utter nonsense. If you want to take that as a "seamy attack" there's really nothing I can do about it. The ones changing the topic here are Wee, Kahastok and now yourself and nothing changes the fact that you appear out of the blue whenever Wee needs a hand throwing mud at either me or editor Langus or both. Your behaviour has gotten really old by now.

Thank you for proving that attempting to discuss the matter of Wee's constant sock puppetry accusations at this ANI report will be near impossible. Unless an admin advises otherwise I'll open a new report tomorrow. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 21:54, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

As you well know, I never mentioned any names in that link you gave here or anywhere else and you also know full well which remark I am talking about that I described as seamy. I have linked it here twice. Please do not try to act dumb with me. It does not become a physicist. Mugginsx (talk) 22:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

So you were accusing me of "stalking" some other editor? Which editor was that? Considering that you had already accused me of stalking Wee previously (should I present links proving this?), I think we both now that is exactly what you were doing. The link you gave here twice is me calling your accusations of "stalking" in my talk page nonsense. Your accusation of "acting dumb" are just bizarre. Mugginsx I'll ask you to please stop disrupting the discussion. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 22:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Shall we put the full disgusting message left for me on your talk page here for all to see Gaba? As for My message to you on your talkpage, it was a sincere suggestion that you might benefit from mentoring and my offer to help find you someone qualified to help you. I see you conveniently left that off the link you provided which no matter how many times you say it, does NOT mention any names. Do you think everyone here is a fool? Is that it? Do you think you are so clever that you can say anything and editors will believe you? If so, that is dillusional thinking my fellow editor and I advise you to stop playing this little, and I do mean little mind game of yours. Mugginsx (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Mugginsx mate, I feel like I enter the Twilight Zone every time I have a discussion with you.

1- I know it is utterly disrupting the discussion at hand but for god's sake please put up the "full disgusting message" I left for you on my talk page because I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

2- The link I provided is exactly the same link you provided here twice (!!)

3- Finally: here's the proof that you had already falsely accused me of stalking Wee by the time you appeared on my talk page out of the blue three months later to accuse me of stalking "certain editors". If you are implying that in your accusation you meant some other editor then please say who because, once again, I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Gaba p (talk) 00:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I already did, more than once. Don't you pay attention? You seem to like to sound smug and superior Gaba but you come across as neither. If you do not think that message on your talk page was inappropriate and yes, disgusting, then there is something very wrong with your idea of propriety on Misplaced Pages. They were rude, insulting and sexist. Further, you seem to come to every discussion like it is a "game" to you and that you are the smartest player and everyone else just can't help but believe what you say. I agree with you that you must feel like you are in the Twilight Zone and I have no doubt you are confused when someone calls you to reality. You know EXACTLY what I am talking about. You seem to make a game out of this to amuse yourself - look at your edit count - under 20% of it is content editing - the rest is talk. It is almost as if you enjoy seeing yourself in print regardless of what you have to say to do it. I don't. I am through with you. Editors and Administrators can find the links and see the obvious if they want to. I am going back to content editing which is what I do. You can continue to attack, evade, change and widen the parameters of the discussion, and then to maintain ignorance and innocence when it suits you. You have already been blocked more than once. I fear if you do not change, you will be blocked again. Mugginsx (talk) 01:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you please clearly link to the message you're referring to? So far the only message I've seen linked is . While Gaba P's edit summary and subject title change was rude, as is the message by Langus-TxT, I don't see any anything sexist there and it definitely doesn't seem as bad as the message you seem to be referring to (I definetly wouldn't call it disgusting). I admit I may be missing some contex here as I have no idea who youknowho refers to. But if the message by Langus in my link is what you're referring to, then you may want to explain why it's so bad. All it seems to be is a rudely written accusation of possible meatpuppetry or inappropiate collobration combined with an accusation of stalking, hounding and fixation on certain editors, which is wrong particularly when nsupported. But unfortunately these sort of accusations and messages seem to be flying both ways here. Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I did a bit more digging and found out you are female. I see historically Gaba P referred to you as 'he', while I understand this can be offensive, it is common. When it was pointed out to them you self identified as female they said something like 'they'd seen no evidence but would call you she', this could be seen as offensive if the meaning is they don't believe you are female but I think our only option here is to AGF they actually meant they'd never seen where you self identified as female. There was also some kerfuffle over a case where Gaba P said something along the lines of you being fond of Wee. This would be highly inappropriate if they were suggesting you had some sort of romantic feelings or 'crush' on Wee but they have said this was not their intention and I would agree with others who commented at the time that I'm just not seeing it. Note that I don't see how their could be anything sexist about it since from what I can tell Gaba P wasn't even aware you were female at the time so even if your intepretation was correct, it seems clear they could not be making the assumption that was the case because of your sex. I'm not sure if the same problem arises here. If youknowho refers to Wee I can see how the remarks by Langus could be intepreted as suggesting you had some sort of romantic feelings or crush on Wee. But while it's slightly more possible here then the Gaba P case, I'm just not seeing it particularly given the comment on whether you are related. In any case, since the comments weren't written by Gaba P, I don't think you can blame them for not seeing the same ting you're seeing which as I've said is far from clear in my eyes. Note that even if Langus had meant it in they way I brought up, while the comments would be highly inapproriate, they aren't necessarily sexist. Are you even sure Langus is aware you are female or do you have any reason to think their suggestions arose because of you sex (or for that matter that they're thinking of it in a romantic or sexual sort of way as opposed to a more 'stalker fan' sort of way)? If you really feel that strongly about it, I'd suggest you seek clarification from Langus, hopefully this could be sufficiently resolved in the manner of Gaba P's comments of you being fond of Wee. Nil Einne (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic ban

After the above comments, it is clear that both parties have engaged in very uncivil behavior. Wee frequently makes sockpuppet accusations, while Gaba has made claims of racism (albeit, borderline), a violation of WP: NPA. The atrocious amount of manure flinging, as well as innumerable attempts to get each other's WP: GOAT, as well as the odd comments by Mugginsx clearly establish that there is a problem in dire need of a solution. Ergo, I believe that a topic ban on Falklands-related articles, IMHO, on both editors would be an appropriate course of action. However, I will support an interaction ban if the community finds that a better solution to the problem. Herr Kommisar 04:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

No that is not a fair or accurate appreciation of the situation. Point of fact at every WP:ANI discussion it has been remarked that I have remained civil despite some very strong provocation. I have been called a liar, a racist, a POV pusher, a British nationalist and a hardcore Falklander. He even called me a liar at ANI and was encouraged to do so.

Gaba P wants me to be topic banned that much is plain - you'll propose to give hime exactly what he wants. He creates the poisonous atmosphere, I don't.

Further I don't make sock puppet allegations,I refer to the original unblocking for a good reason. We see a huge faux over-reaction claiming I am doing so but its a distraction tactic to draw attention away from the warnings on his uncivil behaviour and his battleground mentality. As User:Basalisk noted at the 2nd ANI case it is a case of one editor paralysing an entire topic - and its instructive to note that within hrs of Gaba p being blocked for 31 hrs for incivility the editors remaining agreed on a consensus that proved elusive with his presence.

Gaba P constantly displays the kind of battleground mentality and uncivil demeanor that should have seen him blocked long ago. He covers it up very successfully by spraying around a lot of false accusations, throws in a couple of diffs (which don't support the accusation but they're not checked anyway) and he gets away with it time and agin. The message I'm getting quite loudly is that I am wasting my time expecting anyone at ANI to enforce civil and in reality I'm probably adding to my stress levels unnecessarily by remaining civil in the face of such provocation as I may as well vent back - it doesn't matter as I will be sanctioned for being the victim of his WP:HOUNDing. He has pursued a childish vendetta for a year to get revenge for being blocked and you're proposing to give him what he wants - to get someone with a great deal of knowledge about Falklands history topic banned. Absolutely brilliant.

You want this to stop, make this a one way interaction ban - stop him hounding me. I don't seek him out and if I were to abuse it I would expect you to block me indefinitely. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:44, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

And another thing, though he was blocked, I was convinced to give him a chance and help with his unblocking. My reward for that was to be hounded by the guy for a year and no one has stopped him doing so. You propose to reward my WP:AGF by topic banning me from an area where I have made a huge contribution. Gee thanks. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:48, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

While I have some sympathy to those who feel someone is a sockpuppet but for various reason it hasn't been firmly established e.g. a previous sockpuppetry case was inconclusive, ultimately there comes a point where you have to put up or shut up. Particularly when the aggrevied party is clearly annoyed by your accusations. In other words, if a user remains unblocked, either put together a successful SPI or stop making the accusations until such time you can. Except that unless I missed it, you have refused to undertake to stop making such accusations instead suggesting it's not an issue. In fact above you appear to be suggesting you do not make such allegations instead simply refer to original unblock. Except I've seen myself from links in this thread e.g. that you are or were very recently, so your comments in defence are actually reenforcing my view below. Nil Einne (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, while I haven't looked that much at the articles and talk pages, I'm tempted to support based on the fact when doing some research I found most ANI discussions that I saw involving them seem to amount to large walls of text with those two and one or two other regular participants, and very little outside participation. If this sort of thing is going on at ANI, I can only imagine what's happening in he actual disputes and what I have seen and read seems to confirm it ain't pretty. Nil Einne (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe I deserve a topic ban, I remained civil throughout a discussion that came about after Wee edit-warred to remove a whole section form an article not caring that the RfC that Wee himself opened in no way permitted him to do so. Just read the comments by the closing editor on that RfC. Wee did not care and removed the section anyway. After this came a whole month of re-factoring the section where, contrary to what Wee says here, it was him and Kahastok who kept blocking the consensus. A simple look at the talk page con prove this, please go take a look. Wee even made an issue of a minor edit himself later called "too fucking trivial to argue about" but he made an issue out of it anyway. That is clearly WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.

Wee accuses me of hounding (one of many things he accuses me of), how about a single diff? How about when I edited an article Wee had not edited for a month and a half and he immediately started lobbying accusing me of multiple things (much like he did in his comment above)? The answers he got were not was he was expecting so he moved to attack me in the talk page of the article. My exchange in the talk page of that article with other editors had gone without a single issue, while Wee's first comment there was a direct attack on me accusing me of "soap-boxing".

Is calling me a "dick" repeatedly being civil? Is calling me a "filibuster" a dozen times in a ten day time span being civil? Is calling me a "sock puppet" for over a year (and dismissing my repeated requests that he drops it as "faux outrage") , , , , , , , being civil? The talk page history proves I have remained civil, again please take a look.

A simple way for this to stop would be to block Wee from interacting with me. That takes care of the accusations (all of them) he has no intention of dropping, I'm spared having to give away my right to anonymity once again and we both can continue editing. I am not the first editor to have issues with Wee (and Kahastok) and his WP:OWN mentality, as can be easily proven. He had an infinite amount of chances throughout the last year, and an enormous amount just here in this discussion, to agree to stop accusing me of being a sock puppet (or take me to SPI) and refused every time. Now it's being proposed that I be topic banned along with him. This is definitely not fair. Gaba p (talk) 16:40, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

User: Der Kommisar, I think your characterization of my comments as "odd" is unfair. I think if you read the message that I linked which I had to remove from Gaba p's page, you would agree that it is not a message you would like your mother or sister to receive. I would ask that you strike-through your remark that characterize my comments as "odd". They were a normal reaction to a very nasty message, especially to a woman. I could have requested to have him blocked but chose to give him a chance to apologize, which, of course, he never did. I did begin to edit on that article but chose to back away after seeing the hositility between editors and then vile comments made to me personally. Mugginsx (talk) 16:42, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit waring against consensus, requesting page protection

Two users, Thargor Orlando (diff) and North8000 (diff) are edit warring against a consensus reached at the single-payer talk page. I'm requesting page protection and any other measures that might prevent this. CartoonDiablo (talk) 03:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

They may have a point, though -- some of the references that are claimed to talk about "single payer" are actually talking about the public option, standing alongside other insurance options. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you mean the one Huffington Post article which cites numerous polls and is really only there as an example for the claim of support. As far as I can tell there aren't any public option polls cited in the chart. CartoonDiablo (talk) 13:16, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Update: Thargor Orlando continues to edit war against the consensus reached at the talk:

• diff
• diff

This seems to be a clear attempt to lock the page into his desired edit. CartoonDiablo (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

My only actions have been to try to stabilize ridiculous situation there and support the process of real discussion there, otherwise I absolutely do not care one tiny bit how the core points of contention end up. IMO for months Cartoon Diablo has been just tossing hand grenades and setting the curtains on fire there, lobbing false charges (including pretending that other editors are going against some consensus) and taking it to a range of other forums (I'm guessing about 8-10 threads, included a few here and Arbcom) IMO as a diversion/excuse for not discussing, and this is a continuation of that process. Thargor Orlando has been very cautions and Wikipedian. Finally another editor came along who was in opposition to Thargor Orlando but was really discussing things so I thought "finally" but then that person turned to be a sock or something and is gone. So now once again, (decide for yourself on 74.113.108.2, a wiki-saavy editor, and 16 of their 22 lifetime edits are supporting CD at this article, and who also refuses to discuss specifics) that leaves the article with only one person willing to act as a real editor and nobody for them to actually discuss things with.

Even though CartoonDiablo has tossed this into about 8 venues, a read of the last ~2 months of talk page at the article gives a pretty good indication of what has been happening. What CartoonDiablo has been trying to war in is a huge bundle of changes that covers so many things (formatting of the info (table vs. prose), disposition of many different polls, wording etc.) that it makes a further mess out of the situation, making it nearly impossible to review or discuss and thus a further disruption of the process.

I am also worn out at trying to be the "stabilizer" there due to all of the insults, false accusation tactics from CartoonDiablo that such entails and have been wanting to leave the article. I would like and recommend that an admin to step in in my place at that article, take a thorough look at what has been happening, do what they see fit, and keep an eye on it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Officially requested page protection here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:41, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

So, both "sides" have requested protection. Carefulness about versions is important. See my comment at that request. North8000 (talk) 14:13, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, the page is protected. (BTW, a brand new SPA has showed up who's entire wiki lifetime (3 edits) has been to edit war at that page in support of CartoonDiablo.) In addition to IP 74.... described above. But I would still like to ask if there is an admin who would take a thorough look at this page as a minimum. Even better, if they are willing to stay, to replace me there, but if not a thorough look would be appreciated. North8000 (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit war over use (misuse?) of wikilinks in a table.

Since their debut(s), most of the NYC area bus route articles have had each route terminal's locale (and associated rapid transit services) wikilinked no matter how many times the locale (and services) appears in a table. There are a few tables on each page.

In the article: List of bus routes in the Bronx (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), user: Other Side One (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) started undoing all the edits that I was making so the tables would "match" the other (at least six) articles that contain such tables. At that time, the tables in that specific article were a patchwork of locales' wikilinks and non-links (black text). User also stated on my talk page that I gave them a vague reason (yes, I did originally) why all the links should stay, but it appears the other editor never saw my post on their talk page (two days later) that gave a non-vague reason (since then, this editor has posted on my talk page). Recently, the other editor has edited the tables in List of bus routes in Queens (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) accomplishing the same thing (reversing all the wikilinks under the edit summaries of "GOOD FAITH"), although the Bronx article has not been re-reversed at this time. I contend that the links should stay as they have generally always been there with no complaint and the links make for a better wiki experience for the reader (and the editor) by not having to search as many as (or more than) 100 entries in the tables to find a link (or not) to a locale. Also, in my opinion, the links make the table look cleaner.

Diffs: (Bronx article)
It started with one link here:

then this whole section:

and this section also:

then my reversals:

undo from other editor:

and my undo to the previous undo:

(Queens article)
One time:

I will wait to do any further editing on the Queens article (or any further "undos") until there is a response/resolution to this dispute.

Thank you for your time and attention with this matter.

  --SkipperRipper (talk) 06:26, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

As per WP:OVERLINK, the first time something is mentioned in an article it can and should be wikilinked - future ones should not be. It doesn't matter if someone had failed to remove them a week ago or a year ago. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

But here's the rub in regard to "overlinking", this "article" is more a collection of tables, as opposed to a regular "paragraphs" and "sentences" article. I agreed and even stated that in a "regular" article that over/repeating linking should never be done. Under WP:REPEATLINK it is stated: "Even within these general limits, the choice of whether or not to repeat a link should consider whether the added value of linking a particular occurrence outweighs the consequent dilution of the value of other links." The linking here does not hurt the value of other links...

Thanks for the expedient response. --SkipperRipper (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

And that was the basis of my whole point in removing the redundant wikilinks...both this and plain ol' common sense. This is nothing personal against SkipperRipper and any other editor, I was only acting on good faith. Other Side One (talk) 16:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'm tarnished because I think that "List of Bus routes..." articles are a brutal and non-encyclopedic topic. List-of's should only provide a table of contents to existing articles, not provide route schedules (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Bwilkins! How refreshing to find that I am in perfect agreement with you! This is making a shitty day a lot better. One day we'll tackle the policy/guidelines for lists, one day... Drmies (talk) 20:23, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring the question of whether we should have these pages...when something is not linked outside of a sortable table, it should either be linked nowhere in the table or everywhere — our tables are sortable many different ways, so it's going to be easy to make it so that the link appears in the middle or the bottom instead of the top. If you're a reader, you're going to be confused if you sort it multiple ways and then look for the link: "Where's that link? Why don't they just link it the other times?" Much better to make it so that readers can click the link every time or none of them, in order to spare them the time of looking for a link. Now...I must say that I agree with the idea of getting rid of these pages. Nyttend (talk) 02:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

See you at AfD, Nyttend: I'll gladly follow. I'm not leading, since there's a million J-pop fans out for my balls already and I can't multitask that well. Drmies (talk) 04:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Are we building an encyclopedia or are we hosting bus schedules?  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  04:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• What would you call this? (No, it's not a bus schedule.) Drmies (talk) 05:20, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • De gustibus, Drmies. "Slave of Chocolate"?--Shirt58 (talk) 06:21, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm in the "more links are better" camp, particularly with tables, and especially those that are sortable (which are cited as exceptions to the one link "rule"). Having them all linked looks less messy than only some links, is certainly more user-friendly than making the reader search for a link (and wonder why some aren't linked), etc. In other sites, you would never see the "one link rule" used on a table (or most of the time, even in articles). I think additional links rarely diminish the value of existing links unless you start linking common words that are likely never to be followed. What's more, I think there are a significant number of editors, and even more readers, that agree. (Tangentially, I don't think WP is the place for rapidly changing things like big city bus schedules, airport destination tables, etc. It just doesn't seem practical to keep them accurate, nor are they likely to be used much unless they add a lot of value over the official sites, which seems unlikely). —— 22:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This might be a genuine trademark/copyright violation issue, but it also seems like it could qualify as a legal threat, so I thought I'd bring it here just to make sure it gets seen. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting but now perhaps hypothetical since I blocked the account as a username violation. Let's see what happens next. Thanks Dawn Bard, Drmies (talk) 21:01, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry risk (Not SPI ready)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Greetings.

23:36, 28 February 2013 User account Pandalover-11 (talk | contribs) was created by Greysony11 (talk | contribs)

This caught my attention in the New Users log, both have RedLinks for user, talk and contributions. I'm not sure if this is a SockPuppetry risk or anything but wanted to bring it to the attention of the experienced. Thoughts? MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 23:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

That depends: alternate accounts are permitted under specific circumstances (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The fact that these accounts were created four minutes apart screams sockpuppetry to me, although its probably somebody who is unaware that it is prohibited. Additionally, neither of them has edited yet, so after they have edited, I'd recommend contacting Pandalover-11. If this is an unintentional rule-breaking, the Pandalover account will ask to be shut down, correct? RedSoxFan2434 (talk) 01:26, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Can I ask why the OP has not notified both accounts of this ANI filing, as is required? That might actually help with getting some clarification. How about welcoming new users? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

There is no need for a strong reaction at this time. BWilkins' suggestion of welcoming and then trying to get clarification and understanding may be a better and friendlier first approach. -- Jreferee (talk) 11:35, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Madagascar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Needs checked. Last edit cut a citation in half and left a mess, but can't edit it myself, protected page. LCS check (talk) 16:05, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

The editor noticed the problem and has fixed it. Thanks for reporting -- Dianna (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Charsadda District, Pakistan, Charsadda

These pages were unprotected today after being semi-protected for a week because IP editors were repeatedly re-adding a badly written, unsourced, irrelevant wall'o'text. Here's a sample:

Shamozai, Sultan khel belong to Sultan Muhammad Khan. Famous personalities are Saddar Sarfaraz khan (late) is a president of Khudi Khidmatgar Tanzeem before Abdul Gaffar khan(Bacha khan),Nawab Shanawaz khan(late),Qazi Muhammad khan(salar sab)tha first president of all Muslim league, Ameer khesro khan (late) EX-MPA,Tila Muhammad Khan (late)Chief engr in PWD,Abdullah jan khan EX- MD Wapda, Haji Muhammad Yaqoob khan (late) Cherman MC Utmanzai,Haji saad ullah khan (late) is also a member o khudi khidmat gar tanzeem and a great business man

The whole text is much longer, but this gives you an idea; there's no need for me to repost the whole thing here. After I removed the content from Charsadda this morning, one of the IPs left me a message on my talk page telling me to stop. I had tried to engage on Talk:Charsadda District, Pakistan before the pages were protected, but to no avail. And some of the involved IPs have been warned on their talk pages and even blocked for edit-wars, but the edits continue under other IPs. I don't think this is going to stop on its own, is what I'm saying. I don't know if maybe another semi-protect or blocking a range of IPs would be appropriate, but I thought I'd bring it here to at least get some more sets of eyes on it. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 20:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added both pages to my watchlist, notified the user of this discussion and left a 3RR warning on the IP's talk page. Looks like those pages may need protecting again, but we'll have to wait and see. ★ Bald Zebra ★  07:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

BLP vios from IP

110.174.34.129 (talk · contribs) seems to be on some sort of weird agenda, adding what appears to be BLP-violations as well as unsourced additions to various articles (see contribs). A second pair of eyes is requested, and judging from their talk page warnings doesn't work. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for 72 hours, hopefully he would stop. Yes it's radical POV pushing and WP:BLP violations. Secret 21:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Continued misinformation vandalism by anonymous user

User:94.55.149.54 has continued blatant misinformation vandalism after being given a final warning. Two of their four edits since that final warning have been definite vandalism; I don't know about the other two, but they don't get the benefit of the doubt IMHO. Evidence for blocking here. Thanks, Ubcule (talk) 21:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Wrong venue - persistent vandalism such as this should go to WP:AIV. hmssolent\ _{My patrols} 07:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive editing on Buyid dynasty

User:HistoryofIran has been repeatedly removing Kurdish, which is referenced, from the possible origins of the Buyid dynasty. HistoryofIran was reverted twice by Gomada, then added more reference(s) for Dailamite while removing Kurdish again.

I restored, " or Kurdish origin" and posted a warning to User:HistoryofIran,, stating that if he removed Kurdish again without consensus, I would report him. User:HistoryofIran's response was, "Then do it, i don't really care.. because im writing the truth, false edit summary? i even added two more sources that they were only Daylimites, now what are you going to say about that? im giving you this day to answer me back or else i will change it back.". Whereupon, HistoryofIran removed Kurdish again adding some website by a ?Paul White? as a reference. I checked the website and found nothing that says, "Buyids were not Kurdish".

As of this moment, User:HistoryofIran has reverted Gomada and myself, 4 times:,,,. It is only because of HistoryofIran's talking via edit summaries and not on the talk page, that this has been filed.
It is clear this user either does not or will not use the talk page to work with other editors. I believe an Admin is needed to resolve this disruptive editing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:58, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

User:HistoryofIran has similar contributions in Zazas article. He/she is deleting all sources. You can check his/her last contribution. Many users reverted his contributions but he/she keeps to delete sources. I warned him 3 days ago to discuss on talk page before he deletes sources but he/she doesnt care.--Gomada (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

User:Polllilur

This user has created a number of articles about 'projected books' by 'Philip Timmins' who, according to the (deleted) article about him, is still at school (13). The other articles created by this user are very brief and about various wars and battles. I had blocked the user to prevent more 'novels', but then found the battles and have unblocked pending a review here. Some may be genuine, but I can't find the Burmese–Siamese War (1849–1855) for one, and have doubts about the others, despite there being work done by respected editors (categorising, etc). I'd be obliged if someone could look into these articles and see if there are any genuine refs for them. I'm not a frequenter of AN/I, but this is the only place I could think of to bring this to. I'm going offline now, and I hope someone can get to the bottom of this lot. Peridon (talk) 22:53, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

See Military history of Burma#Siam (1849–1855). None of the other battles are hoaxes. The Burmese–Siamese series of wars come from redlinks at Burmese–Siamese wars. I suspect that the "nonexistant sites" are copying errors. Polllilur (talk · contribs) seems unaware of the hyphen.--Auric talk 23:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

For example the article Battle of Wuchale was originally sourced from the url "www.traveloxi.com/city.phd?location.--e/n/wuchale", a corrupted version of http://www.traveloxi.com/city.php?location=/en/wuchale, using wikipedia information. Battle of Madab had "en.wikipedia.org/list_of_battles_1400_1800". The proper article is List of battles 1401–1800 (note the hyphen in the correct link).--Auric talk 23:28, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• While I can't speak for the Timmins books and associated articles, Auric is dead on about the method to the madness. S/he started by creating articles from redlinks at Wand Bewossen. Then went to List of battles 1401–1800. Battle of Qlobaa was not a hoax, but a misspelling of Battle of Qolobaa, also spelled Qoloba. Not sure if the editor understands English. Several msgs were posted to his talk page letting him know that using Misplaced Pages as a citation was not acceptable; the editor never responded, but rather kept creating inappropriately sourced articles. Cindy(talk to me) 00:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Lesson learned: The "battle of fagetta" with characters that sound out of a Batman movie is not necessarily a hoax. Must read more about the history of Ethiopia. §FreeRangeFrog 01:42, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The Timmins article gave a DoB indicating 13 as the age. As I can't see anyone else writing about his planned novels, I assume that this is him himself. From the name, I would assume a knowledge of English. The description included 'child historian'... Peridon (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I had a suspicion that the editor was young (WP:CHILD).--Auric talk 15:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Billy Graham comment

While this edit was appropriate per WP:NPOV, the edit summary is not appropriate for the article of major religious leader. May we strike the edit summary please? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm assuming that it's the word asshole you're objecting to. I'm not even sure who it's referring to. You presumably think it refers to Graham. Would it be OK if it referred to someone else? HiLo48 (talk) 06:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

It's referring to an editor, and it's not about who it it's referring to but its presence on that particular page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:48, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Why is it an issue that it's "the article of major religious leader"? Would it be OK associated with another article? HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Because of the morality of some of the people who read the article and edit the history. Obviously yo don't agree so why not ignore the request and let someone who does agree deal with it instead? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

HiLo makes a good point; meanwhile, you should notify the editor as you're required to do... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Notifications are usually for blocking. Is it also required for removing of a comment? I've seen entire edits removed here and the editors were not removed, but I can do so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:01, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Done. I see that Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 also commented there. Am only asking for the visibility to be changed, not for the edit to be removed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz - You ask me to ignore the request. I ask you why you think some articles deserve different treatment from others. Either asshole is completely unacceptable in Edit summaries, or it's acceptable for every article. Far too many people want religious articles treated differently from others on Misplaced Pages, and they must not be. HiLo48 (talk) 07:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

That's right. I insisted on notification 'cause the guy needs to be told to cool it down in general; otherwise, we'd be revdelling a lot here. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

If someone wrote that as an edit summary on an article about a children's television programme it would be unacceptable knowing the audience most likely to see it. If it was on an edit summary for a football team it would be less likely to offend. If it were left on an article about abattoirs, it may be entirely acceptable, in the right context. The context in which the word is used, in this case, does make a difference not only for how it is used but where. While I would never use profanity like this, I do understand that some editors may use it. The question is not about use, which you seem to think is the case, the issue is about the location of the use and its intention to provoke a reaction. It should be hidden. If you want to offend people, then leave it be. If you don't, then hide it, but don't pretend that you don't understand what I'm saying. It's insulting to my intelligence and worse, it doesn't reflect well on you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored and the reference to "asshole" was a question in regards to who made the remark or statement that made the text a quote in the reference. In other words they were referring to the General Secretary of the Workers' Party of Korea. Religious leaders, whether they be major or minor do not get special treatment or consideration in this manner. I'm not even sure this is a BLP concern as it is not calling aperson an asshole but refers to a position as being an asshole.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)So, (1) the pious readers of a page on a "major religious leader" must have special protection from having their "morality" disturbed by the word "asshole" and (2) only "someone who does agree" with the request should deal with it. Ridiculous. DeCausa (talk) 08:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

According to Help:Edit summary:

* Avoid inappropriate summaries. Editors should explain their edits, but not be overly critical or harsh when editing or reverting others' work. This may be perceived as uncivil, and cause tension or bad feelings, which makes collaboration more difficult. Explain what you changed, and cite the relevant policies, guidelines or principles of good writing, but try not to target or to single out others in a way that may come across as an attack or an insult.

This is not an absolute and is not actual policy or guidelines. The most that would be appropriate here is a possible warning for an uncivil summary that might (and obviously has) offended someone, but it was not aimed at a contributer but at the figure from the reference and not a named person.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Am I missing something? It seems to me based on the link and the change that the asshole bit was likely directed at the contributor who called Kim Jong-Il a dictator, rather then using a more neutral and encyclopaedic term as the person who left the edit summar substituted with. I don't see how a ref is involved, the only ref doesn't even use the term dictator so why would the person who left the edit summary be calling someone from the reference an 'asshole' over something the did not do? Anyway, while the describing Kim Jong-Il as a dictator in that context was probably not ideal, I don't think calling the person who added it an asshole was a good idea. I do agree the fact the subject of the article of the edit summary is a major religious figure is irrelevant. Nil Einne (talk) 13:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

LittleBenW and diacritics-related topic ban violation yet again, and NPA violation

LittleBenW (talk · contribs) has yet again violated the editing restrictions placed on him as a result of WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive777#User:LittleBenW editwarring against diacritics again, by posting this rant at User talk:Sandstein. Sandstein then warned LittleBenW per WP:ARBATC and its discretionary sanctions about personalizing style disputes, whereupon LittleBenW promptly deleted his post with the odd edit summary of "Reverted, intended to be private". Sandstein's warning perhaps makes sense, depending on ARBATC's actual scope, but if so, only addresses the ARBATC problem with LittleBenW's post, not the ANI problem, that it violated his topic ban: "LittleBenW is indefinitely prohibited from making any edits concerning diacritics, or participating in any discussions about the same, anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages." No exception is made for an admin's talk pages, nor for self-reverting after being chastised. If the post had only tangentially or incidentally touched on diacritics-related inter-editor disputes, "no harm, no foul", but it overwhelmingly dwells on them, despite them being entirely tangential to his legitimate ostensible purpose of simply asking for advice on how to appeal his ban. The rant also clearly consists primarily of violations of WP:NPA/WP:AGF/WP:CIVIL, by making a stream of hyperbolic accusations ("canvassing of a mob", "intimidate", "threats", etc.) without sufficient evidence (the diffs are all old news, and don't support his claims, but are actually evidence that he's already been warned against such behavior repeatedly). LittleBenW was very recently 1-day-blocked for multiple violations of the diacritics topic ban in mainspace and article talk pages. (ANI discussion). Clearly refusing to get the point. User was also recently blocked for NPA violations.. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 11:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

His removal of the post you are upset with "cured" the defect - just as a self-revert "cures" 3RR. I fear you are now an archetype of an "involved person" with regard to him, and likely should see what others independently arrive at. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• You can't be half pregnant. He either broke his topic ban, or he didn't. A self-revert doesn't cure a 3RR but makes admins more predisposed to believing it was an error and thus exercise leniency because a subsequent block could be seen as 'punitive'. Anyone should be able to work out from the evidence, and judge for him/herself whether any violation actually occurred. Let's face it, most of these complaints are made by people with issues against the people they complain about. Maybe it took an "involved" party to raise the red flag as the admin himself was too mired in controversy, and thus too distracted to see it. -- Ohconfucius  12:44, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• He's also currently planning to violate his topic ban again . Not to mention that diff is actually another violation in itself. I don't understand which part of the topic ban is so difficult for him to understand. Black Kite (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Please explain how an appeal of a topic ban violates a topic ban. LittleBen (talk) 14:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• When it's not an appeal of a topic ban, which that isn't - it's a suggestion to take two issues to ArbCom, at least one of which you are completely banned from editing about. Even if you did wish to appeal a topic ban, the correct venue would be that where it was imposed, in this case WP:AN. Black Kite (talk) 14:27, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "self-reverting after being chastised" is surely a blatant lie, as anyone can see from the timestamps.
• As you can see, the post was intended as a private message. It (1) provided links to your abusive behavior on my own talk page, to make the point that your continuing threats and insults are not just limited to the MOS space, and also (2) stated that I had prepared an appeal of the previous topic ban—which a number of people had protested as lacking due process—and said that I plan to submit an appeal soon.
• As for (1), here you see even pro-diacritic Bob Raynor telling you that your threats and insults are not appropriate. Also here SMC says In particular, I have suggested that you be included in the topic bad that will most likely be applied to Apteva, because you exhibit precisely the same tendentious editing pattern on this issue. You have clearly simply substituted dashes for diacritics as something to WP:BATTLEGROUND about, after being topic-banned from diacritis and are behaving as if you are not here to write an encyclopedia, but simply engage in trolling and sport argument to entertain yourself. That is not what Misplaced Pages is for; try Usenet newsgroups. Such a blanket stream of insults and false accusations is just as unacceptable on a user talk page as on a MOS talk page. And he even tried to get me banned by falsely accusing me of a legal threat. Such abusive behavior, smear campaigns, and lies are surely not acceptable on Misplaced Pages.  LittleBen (talk) 14:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The purpose of topic bans is minimize disruption, not provide ammunition in a continuing saga. Dredging up two day old reverted edits of user talk pages to file ANI reports is not consistent with minimizing disruption, nor is documenting past sins of the thread originator. We simply do not exist to provide a battleground for MOS warriors. See we can't beam them down to Planet Cheron, could someone perhaps mercy kill this thread? NE Ent 14:56, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Since there is disruption -- both current and threatened -- by one specific party, your usual "Not Our Problem" post doesn't really apply here. --Calton | Talk 15:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not going to action anything here, but I will leave LittleBen a warning that the next infraction of his ban will result in a block. Black Kite (talk) 15:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
• I thought I heard my ears burning. My stance then, as now, is that the diacritics wars are dramatic enough already; grudges between editors make it a lot worse, for no good reason. I think it would be helpful if SMcCandlish backed off a bit, but that does not mean that SMcCandlish is the one to blame here, or even that blame should be shared 50:50. Disruptive editing that was severe enough to earn editing restrictions despite having support from other editors on your "side", then repeatedly going back to that area, is the root cause and it's a bigger problem than the fact that another participant in the diacritics wars keeps on finding and pointing out violations. Even now, LittleBenW frames it as a partisan thing where SMcCandlish is so bad that even people on the "pro diacritics" side are revolted; this is neither accurate nor helpful nor good-faith. If SMcCandlish were to stop (or be forcibly stopped from) pointing out the breaches of editing restrictions and the flaunting of community decisions, that wouldn't solve the underlying problem; let's not shoot the messenger. bobrayner (talk) 15:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

please delete my account.

Thanks. Humanpublic (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

No I won't. Basket _Feudalist 15:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The first respondant's rudeness aside, it's not technically possible to delete accounts on Misplaced Pages. However, you can simply walk away and stop using it. DMacks (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Courtesy vanishing (which isn't really just walking away) NE Ent 15:58, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards