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Revision as of 09:27, 15 March 2013

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Big Two-Hearted River

Nominator(s): Truthkeeper88, Ceoil

Third time around for this article about an Ernest Hemingway short story written when he was young and in good form, exhibiting his early and best modernist techniques. Many thanks to everyone who has worked on this: most especially to Maralia for helping at the end of the second try, and to Yomangani and Riggr Mortis, unfortunately both no longer editing, for prose help and advice. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Support You have done a very good job. The article's prose, structure, and referencing are excellent. My only suggestion is to add an infobox with a picture of the book. DavidinNJ (talk) 03:40, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for reading and for the support. For a variety of reasons I prefer no infobox for this short story; I tried one at some point and it looks odd to have to have the book paired with the article, each with different titles. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks David. Ceoil (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments from George Ponderevo

I think this is pretty good. I haven't finished reading yet, but I came across this:

  • "Hemingway's descriptions of the Michigan landscape, which he would have been familiar to him as in his youth he summered at the family's Walloon Lake summer cottage in Northern Michigan". There's clearly something wrong there.
  • "That spring, before he began the story, a series of Cézanne watercolors were exhibited at Berheim-Jeune Gallery, about which Hemingway would write many years later in A Moveable Feast that he had been 'learning something from the painting of Cézanne that made writing simple true sentences far from enough to make the stories have the dimensions that I was trying to put in them.'" I think you need to take a leaf out of Hemingway's book and simplify that sentence/break it up. Not too fond of that "series ... were" either.
  • "Carlos Baker views the stories of In Our Time as a remarkable achievements for a young writer."
  • Hi George, thanks for catching these - I think all fixed now. I've tried simplifying the long sentence; let me know if it works. Whenever I try to take a leaf from Hemingway, I end of up with choppy staccato prose - and then I lose perspective, so ... Anyway, thanks too for taking the time to read and for the copyedits. Much appreciated. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments, leaning to support: I supported promotion at the last FAC, since when the article has been further worked on. My overall impression, that this is a thoughtful and comprehensive account of an important work in 20th century American literature, has not change, but on rereading I gave picked up a few relatively minor issues and quibbles:

  • I am not completely familiar with punctuation usage in American English, but it seems to me that in the first line, a comma is definitely needed after "Hemingway".
  • "He became friends with and influenced by..." reads awkwardly: "was influenced by"?
  • "In 1923, he was first published with a slim volume titled Three Stories and Ten Poems, followed the next year by another collection..." Again there is awkwardness here, chiefly around "he was first published with". I suggest recasting the sentence: "The year 1923 saw his first published work, a slim volume titled Three Stories and Ten Poems, followed the next year..." etc
  • The First World War needs to be mentioned as the context for Hemingway's stint as an ambulance driver. Likewise, "July 8" needs a year (1918, presumably)
  • "When asked her opinion of the draft in October..." This is presumably 1925, which needs to be clear as the last year mentioned was 1919.
  • "waiting for a response from America" sounds a bit portentious; from his New York publisher, presumably?
  • Maybe "repeatedly" rather than "again and again"?
  • He "summered" at the family's "summer cottage". Is there a way that could be expressed without the repetition?
  • "Hemingway is fundamentally an American nature writer according to Hemingway scholar Susan Beegel." Would be better phrased as " According to Hemingway scholar Susan Beegel, Hemingway is fundamentally an American nature writer." Or, if left as it is, place a comma after "nature writer".
  • "more characteristic in Hemingway's early fiction" → "most characteristic in Hemingway's early fiction" (or leave out more/most, and say "characteristic of")
  • In the "Iceberg" section, as you have reintroduced Pound as "Ezra Pound", you might reintroduce Joyce as "James Joyce" to avoid possible identification problems. ("Joyce" could, for example, be a lady friend)
  • A very minor quibble, but I think "minute to minute" should read "minute-to-minute"
  • "observes a detachedly described climactic event": That doesn't sound right. Maybe he "observes and describes with detachment a climactic event"?
  • "that painters work" → "that painter's work"
  • "in shock by his war experience" → "in shock from his war experience"
  • "a bird that in mythology symbolizes "halcyon days, peace and tranquility". If the quoted phrase is Johnson's, perhaps the "Johnson says" should be brought forward?
  • Personally I would prefer "quoted" to "qtd" in the citations.

When these have been addressed I will be happy to reinstate my support. An attractive and engaging article. Brianboulton (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks Brian for the comments. Will get to them after work tonight and tomorrow. I very much appreciate the time in revisiting and finding these. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • These points were all good catches and I think I've fixed them all. Regarding the "qtd" vs. "quoted": the most recent version of The MLA Style Manual – used in the US for humanities – has "qtd" but with a full stop. I like to follow that style as closely as possible for a bunch of reasons, probably not worth detailing here. I'll go through and add the period to the "qtd" throughout but can't get to it immediately because a bit of a vision issue that I have to wait to clear. Thanks again. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Fixed so that "qtd" is now "qtd." Truthkeeper (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Support. Having read through the whole thing now I like this article very much, and the nominators are to be congratulated on producing such a fine piece of work. Some of Brian's points above still need to be addressed of course, but I'm confident they will be addressed and I don't see any of them as show stoppers. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:08, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and the kind words. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Sources and images - spotchecks not done

  • File:Ernest_Hemingway_1923_passport_photo.TIF.jpg: source link appears broken
  • File:GertrudeStein_JackHemingway_Paris.jpg: first link is broken again (direct link is fine)
  • Check alphabetization of Sources
  • Be consistent in whether editor comes before or after title for "in..." entries. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi, thanks Nikkimaria. I've fixed these. On my browser the NARA link goes to the permanent record - I though that's how it should be? I removed one link that wasn't necessary and broken. Fixed the JFK Library link again. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support – I also supported at the previous FAC, and am glad to see that the article has been improved further since the last time. I saw a few minor issues and fixed them; otherwise the article appears FA-worthy to me. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Note to delegates: I believe that Truthkeeper has temporarily left the project, and I think Ceoil may have done, too. Whether either will respond to further comments seems rather doubtful. I'm not sure what the protocol is in such cases, but for the record this nomination has four supports and, apparently, no outstanding issues on images and sources. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Tks Brian -- yes, the checks/reviews and level of support are sufficient for promotion; I also note that some prose concerns I had last time have been dealt with. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Sesame Street research

Nominator(s): Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello, this is the third FAC for this article. I believe that it failed both times mostly due to lack of support. Reviewers, please do not be afraid of this article! It's about Sesame Street, for heaven's sake! ;) Seriously, it needs support to pass and is, IMO, a very interesting article and a good read. Thanks in advance. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by GabeMc

General
  • Any chance of adding an image to the lead?
As I've stated in previous FACs, images are a challenge with Sesame Street articles. The SW is fiercely protective of their images, and for good reason. Other editors have suggested adding the SS logo, but it's been rejected for use in the main article (a FA), so I doubt it would fly here. I understand that images in the lead aren't required for FAs, and I don't want to add content to the lead just so we can add an image there. If anyone can come up with a more brilliant idea, then please suggest.
  • Sourcing. - Cite #28 ^ Knowlton, Linda Goldstein and Linda Hawkins Costigan (producers) (2006). The World According to Sesame Street (documentary). Participant Productions. This appears to be a video documetary, but if so, we need an "event location" to pinpoint which part of the doc you are citing to. In much the same way as a book cannot be cited to in general, without a page number, we also need a location for video media.
Ok, since I no longer have access to the documentary, I looked for other sources that back up the same thing and found better ones. Thanks.
  • Sourcing. - Several of your access dates are two or three years old. While not an FAC requirement per se, it would be helpful to know that those links have been checked more recently.
Checked out. Since this article is mostly made up of sources that aren't "accessible", it was easy. ;)
Lead
  • Copy-edit suggestion. - Consider combining these sentences: "The children's television show Sesame Street premiered on public broadcasting television stations in 1969. Unlike earlier children's programming, the show used research to both create the show and test its impact on its young viewers. As of 2001, there had been over 1,000 research studies examining the show's impact on children's learning and attention" into something such as: "In 1969, the children's television show Sesame Street premiered on PBS. The show's producers have utilized over 1,000 research studies in an effort to help them both improve programming and evaluate its impact on children's learning", or similar. The use of "As of 2001", begs the question: did the research stop 12 years ago?
Done, good suggestion. I suppose the year isn't important enough to mention, especially in the lead. It was there because it's the number cited in G is for Growing, which was published in 2001.
  • Prose. - "Children's Television Workshop (CTW, the organization founded to oversee Sesame Street production) had developed what came to be called 'the CTW model'." Consider: "The organization founded to oversee Sesame Street production, Children's Television Workshop, had developed what came to be called 'the CTW model'", or similar.
  • Prose. - "As co-creator Joan Ganz Cooney has stated," consider: "Co-creator Joan Ganz Cooney stated".
  • MOS:LQ. - "'Without research, there would be no Sesame Street'." Should the terminal punctuation point be inside the quote marks?
All the above addressed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Background and development
  • Prose. - "Sesame Street's use of research both to create individual episodes and to test its effect on its young viewers". Omit "both" as redundant.
  • Sourcing. - "called the idea of combining research with television production "positively heretical", because it had never been done before." Move the citation to the end of the sentence, unless of course, the source does not support the assertion: "because it had never been done before", in which case, this claim would need to be sourced.
Above two addressed.
  • Vague. - "set it apart from other children's programming" and "other children's television shows were criticized for being cartoons depicting violence and reflecting commercial values". This datum could perhaps use some specific examples for context.
The source doesn't really go into great detail and specifics. Other sources do, however; for example, Morrow and Davis discuss specific shows and how they were violent and commercial. I'm not sure this is the place for that kind of discussion, though, which is why I refer to the fact that Borgenicht made the statement and why I added the "vast wasteline" quote by Cooney in the note. I could just remove the statement if you still think it's too vague.
  • Prose. - "which spelled out how television could be used". "Spelled out" in a bit unencyclopedic, consider a recast such as: "outlined", or similar.
Chose "described".
  • Linking. - "and the creation of CTW". CTW is linked in the lead, but it should also be linked on its first mention in the article body.
Done.
  • Support. - I've read the article several times now, and I think it is well-written, well-researched, and it appears to be quite comprehensive and neutral. Perhaps a few very minor prose issues remain, but there are certainly no actionable objections left to hold up this fine contribution's promotion to FA. Very well done, Christine. Thanks much for all your effort on this important subject. Keep up the great work! GabeMc 00:15, 28 February 2013 (UTC) In progress ... more to come. GabeMc 22:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, waiting for it with great anticipation. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment - (All points adressed) a nice, informative article on an unusual topic, but it might be slightly too positive at times, taking quotes and info from involved persons without further analysis or commentary from uninvolved, secondary sources. Some points after a first read:

I understand the concern. This is a forked article, from Sesame Street, created when I saw that there was enough information for its own article. It focuses on the research associated with the show, not with the criticism of it, which is better suited for Influence of Sesame Street (a GA). There is some mention of the "negative" studies of the show, but it didn't make a big difference. One of the main sources for this article, G is for Growing was published by the research department at CTW, but it summarizes the major studies they and the ETS conducted. Lesser's book, again published by advocates of SS and the CTW, summarizes the early studies. Morrow is probably the most secondary source available. There really hasn't been a lot of studies conducted on the show's efficacy by outside researchers; most of them have been done recently and the ones I could find I've included. I could, though, put some information here, which I'll recreate here and insert into this article if you recommend it:
The "most important" studies that found negative effects of Sesame Street were conducted by educator Herbert A. Sprigle and psychologist Thomas D. Cook during its first two seasons. Both studies found that the show increased the educational gap between poor and middle-class children. Morrow reported that these studies had little impact on the public discussion about Sesame Street.
Note: The rest of this paragraph and the one that follows it in the Influence article talks about the criticism of some prominent psychologists and policy makers, but IMO they constitute opinion and not the findings of studies.
She reported that most of the positive research conducted on the show has been done by the CTW, and then sent to a sympathetic press. She charged that the studies conducted by the CTW "hint at advocacy masquerading as social science". Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • lead "Co-creator Joan Ganz Cooney stated, "Without research, there would be no Sesame Street."" - this quote has a number of problems. It's a very poignant, subjective statement of an involved, biased creator - too "strong" for a lead intro. Literally reading the statement, it's also wrong - of course a Sesame Street show (of less quality and impact) would be possible completely without research. The rest of the paragraph elaborates on the relation between research and show, but doesn't really convey its importance. Suggestion: move that quote down to the main text, where you can provide more context to explain, why exactly research was so vital for the show.
Well, I don't know if I agree, but I'm not that committed to one quote, so I followed your suggestion and moved the quote down to the "The CTW model" section.
  • "CTW researchers invented tools (such as "the distractor") ..." - without explanation, which may be too difficult for the lead, the parenthetical is useless here for most readers.
Ok, done; removed.
  • "The producers changed the show and compiled a body of data based on their findings." - just reading the lead, this is confusing. Wouldn't the compiling be done by some researchers? "Objective" can be trimmed, all data is objective by definition (its statistical analysis may be tainted by subjective views or motivations).
Added phrase "and its researchers"; struck "objective".
  • "The formative research on Sesame Street was the first time children's television viewing was studied scientifically." - needs citation for the "first time" part, even in lead.
Done.
  • "Subsequent studies have replicated these findings." - could you add an example for a notable study here?
Sure, listed the studies discussed in the "Later studies" section. Will address the rest later. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Background "According to writer David Borgenicht, other children's television shows were criticized for being cartoons depicting violence and reflecting commercial values." - the source for this critical statement is a book for "a celebration of the first thirty years of Sesame Street contains special interviews with the show's creators, behind-the-scenes glimpses the Sesame world, fun-filled quizzes, reviews of its funniest moments, unique photographs, and more" (WP:RS). Not having read this book, is it neutral and critical enough to trust such a broad statement?
Well, it's not as if the Unpaved book is a major source for this article. But like above, I'm not committed to using it, since there are better sources that basically say the same thing. Done as directed. The Unpaved book is used a few more times, but not for statements as "critical" as this one. Did you want me to change them as well?
  • "Despite her lack of experience in education, her study was well received." - Received by whom? I know, she is linked, but as one of the main "actors" it may be worth to add a brief description about her professional background somewhere near her first mention.
The source doesn't say who received it, so I just removed it and moved the "lack of experience" phrase to her short background as you suggest.
  • "Curriculum seminars prior to Sesame Street's 33rd season in 2002 resulted in changes to the show's structure and format." - what changes? Can you add 1-2 examples?
Instead of using examples, I changed the wording slightly to clarify: "Curriculum seminars prior to Sesame Street's 33rd season in 2002 resulted in changing the show from a magazine-like format to a more narrative format." You can see that I linked the article that discusses the changed format.
  • "Shortly after beginning Sesame Street, its creators developed what came to be called the "CTW model"" - Called by whom?
Again, unclear in the source, so I cut out the offending phrase.
  • "Sesame Street researcher Rosemarie Truglio called it "a healthy tension", adding "I think the reason it works is that everyone who is a part of the model really, truly cares about children"" - Remove completely (NPOV, no encyclopedic content).
Ah, that makes me sad, 'cause it's a great quote. Plus, I'm not really sure why it would be unencyclopedic, but since I believe in accepting the feedback of my reviewers, I'm remove it, anyway.
  • "...gains made by disadvantaged children were "at least as great" as those by advantaged children" - why the quote marks? Seems like a common comparison, so just an inline-citation would be enough.
  • Footnote 1 "Cooney later called the state of children's programming a "wasteland" at the time the show was created, a reference to FCC ..." - Full name and link for FCC needed.
Got previous two comments.
  • Any critical voices about the CTW model? However minor, it would add to the article's overall balance, if some criticism was mentioned (only if notable of course).
Um, there really hasn't been any criticism of the procedures they follow in the model. No one has ever said, at least that I was able to find, that they're mistaken or misguided for using it. There is the fact that very few TV shows have adopted it, something that Morrow has discussed, but that's not really a criticism of their methodology. I don't believe that a simple description of what they did is unbalanced. There is mention of the producers' reluctance to follow it at first, though, but again, that's not really criticism.

Sorry, if some of those points were mentioned already, just noted them, while reading through. GermanJoe (talk) 10:30, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comments by Evanh2008 - Great article, and the prose has much improved from the last time I looked at it. Very nice work, Christine! Just a few things, and I'll be ready to support:
  • Why link PBS instead of Public Broadcasting Service if the latter is the name of the article?
Fixed.
The policy states that refs in the lead are determined on a case-by-case basis and by consensus. Re: ref 1, a previous reviewer wanted me to support the statement, and I've always been under the impression that you should cite quotations in the lead.
  • Since the lead is meant to summarise the article, I would also avoid giving quotes in the lead that are not in the body of the article.
You're probably talking about the Cooney quote, which I moved to the body as per GermanJoe's review above.
  • Regarding images, there are a handful of public-domain photos here, but, of course, none that are directly prurient to the research angle. There's also a CC-licensed image of Jim Henson, but I'm not sure that's a great choice either. At any rate, if you can find an image, that would be great, but it is not a condition for my support.
Yah, always a problem, and something I've thought a lot about. If it were a perfect world, and we had access to free images of them, I'd think that one of Cooney or a shot of the Sesame Workshop offices in the "Background and Development" section. I don't think that Henson would be a good choice. I've tried to add images of Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch, but other editors have rejected them. An image of Ed Palmer in the "Formative research" section might work, but there's nothing available.

Very, very minor issues now. Great job once again! Evanh2008  04:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate the feedback and kind words. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Support - (above points adressed) some final remarks, but nothing withholding my support for this fine article.

  • The "CTW model" " then convened the experts in a series of meetings ..." - Subject changed previously, better specify, who is "They" here.
  • Borgenicht as source - is OK for other usages (imo), only used for a direct quote and an uncontroversial fact, no need to replace the source there.
  • Lead citations - are required for quotations, and OK/recommended for extraordinary claims.
  • Critical voices - the only point, which probably needs a bit more discussion. I understand, this is a forked article and should not replicate everything. On the other hand it should be able to stand on its own and cover all aspects of its topic including critical voices, even if they overlap a bit with other Sesame Street articles. Suggest 1-2 brief mentions (similar to your examples above) of the most notable critical comments in the appropriate sections (separate "Criticism" is discouraged usually). If the general reaction was vastly positive, more is not needed anyway. GermanJoe (talk) 10:09, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, I made the changes you recommend. I stated that the research was generally positive, and that most are unpublished. I also added a few criticisms from the Influence article as discussed above. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Support: I commented at the previous FAC, and this has improved since then. I have done some minor copy-editing, but feel free to revert anything you don't like, or which I have messed up. I've just a few last questions or points to make, but nothing major. My biggest issue is the placement of the "negative comments", but it doesn't require much work and may just be a preference thing, so it does not affect my support. A very good job overall. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  • "The producers changed the show and its researchers compiled a body of data based on their findings.": For flow, it may be better to begin "Based on these findings…". But there is a problem that the previous sentence says what the researchers did, and this sentence also says what the researchers did. What about "Based on these findings, the researchers compiled a body of data and the producers changed the show accordingly". (I'm assuming that the body of data was what the producers used?)
Fine with your suggestion; made the change.
  • "Summative research conducted throughout Sesame Street's history, including two landmark evaluations in 1970 and 1971, demonstrated": Still not too keen on "history" in this sense, and I suspect that the phrase could be replaced with "over the years", "over the course of the program", or even omitted altogether. However, the research presumably still shows this, so perhaps it should be "demonstrates"?
It needs to demonstrate (har-har) that these studies occurred periodically throughout the period the show has aired, I think that "over the years" is a better choice, so that's what I inserted.
  • "She researched their ideas about the viewing habits of young children, writing a report on her findings entitled "Television for Preschool Education", which described out how television could be used as an aid in the education of preschoolers, especially those living in inner cities.": I think there may be a little too much going on here. Possibly could be split, but even replacing "writing" with "and wrote" may make it more digestible.
Keeping it simple, I chose to follow the latter suggestion.
  • "The program's creative staff was concerned…": Is this "was" or "were"? I hate these! In the UK it would be "were". But I know these can be a minefield!
It's "was" in 'merican English, because the verb modifies "staff", which for us, is singular.
  • "The most important studies that found negative effects of Sesame Street were conducted by educator Herbert A. Sprigle and psychologist Thomas D. Cook during its first two seasons. Both studies found that the show increased the educational gap between poor and middle-class children.": I'm not too clear on the focus here; is it saying that the most important studies found negative effects, or listing the main studies which found negative effects? And this "negative" section seems slightly tacked on, and may be better placed elsewhere, such as in the research sections.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Both studies found that the show negatively affected the gap between poor and middle-class children. How do you suggest that I change it? The negative section doesn't really fit anywhere else; they're early, so they don't belong in the "Later studies" section, and they weren't conducted by either the CTW or the ETS. Plus, they're more background info, I think.
Not a problem. I'm not too sure what I'm asking myself... Sarastro1 (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
These are issues that have been previously discussed. Another reviewer requested that "efficacy" be linked because it's a term about the effectiveness of something. "Magazine" is linked because it's another specific term that describes how information is presented, an important concept here.
Fair enough. Not too sure I agree, but not an issue for me. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, and for your support. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  • "the show used research to create the show" - awkward
How so? It's used as a noun here; not common usage, I know, but common in research literature. It's also the subject of the article. I suppose we could say: '...the show used concepts gained from research studies and experiments to..."
No, it's more the concept of the show creating the show that's a bit strange... Nikkimaria (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Ah, now I get it; thanks for the explanation. Added the word "producers" because you're right that a show can't use research but its producers can.
  • "test its impact" and then "evaluate its impact" in consecutive sentences feels repetitive
I combined the two ideas into one sentence. By doing so, I might have solved the above issue.
  • When full author names appear in text, be consistent in whether middle initial is punctuated
I'm having trouble finding this error? Could you please point it out?
For example, you've got "Louise A Gikow" (no period after A) and later "Shalom M. Fisch" (period after M). Nikkimaria (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Ah again! Got it.
  • "They finally meetings"?
Oops, fixed. I have no idea how that got past us.
  • "80—90 percent of the time" - wrong horizontal line, should be endash
Got it.
  • Don't include quote-initial ellipses
Again, would you mind pointing that out?
"Malcolm Gladwell asserted, "... Without Ed Palmer"". When quoting like this it's clear there's material before and after in the source, so you don't need initial or terminal ellipses. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
I checked, and this was the only instance. Fixed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "children retained most of what learned" - missing word?
Oops again; see above. ;)
  • "It solved this problem by selecting control-group households from areas that did not broadcast the show" - I'm not sure how US broadcasting works; would this be rural areas? Certain parts of the country? Depending on answer, did the studies take into account possible differences in early education or upbringing based on geography or demography?
Actually, at the time (the late 60s and early 70s), even some urban areas didn't get PBS because it was on UHF. I don't think that this is a place to explain that. I looked at the source, and found that it doesn't go into a lot of detail.
  • "vocabulary, letter, and printed- and spoken-word identification" - "letter identification/recognition"?
A previous reviewer has worked with me about how to best put this concept, and that's what we came up with. All three items in the list are different.
  • "and the on type of stimulus"? Also check use of stimulus vs stimuli throughout this para
Got it; good catch.
  • FN6: formatting
Fixed, again thanks for the catch.
  • FN30: why is this different from the other references to chapters from this book?
Because it's the only ref from the book. I'm treating G is for Growing as a compilation of articles, since that's really what it is. This is a common practice in citing sources.
Got it, thanks. And thanks for the feedback and support. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Support: This is fabulous work. I have only one question:

  1. Why are some of the works referenced in the "Works Cited" while others (fn 27, 30, 70, 71) in the notes? Couldn't they be moved into the "Works Cited" and referenced the same way?
See my response to Nikkimaria above. It's a common way to handle sources from the same book.
  1. Okay, make it two. "The evidence showed that attention span depended both on age and the on type of stimuli children viewed." I think there is a word missing here.
Wow, great catch. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 14:23, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Support on content. Since actual Sesame Street images are pretty much off the table, is there any chance of a photo of any of the key people in the article (for example Cooney, Palmer, or Lesser)? Is Shalom M. Fisch worth a redlink? Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 17:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. There is an image of Lesser at Children and Television: Lessons from Sesame Street, but notice that it's never been reviewed, which is probably why it's still there. There was an image of Cooney (can't remember which article, though) that came from the same source (SS's promotional reel), but it was rejected. I suspect that neither would be allowed here. There are no images available of Palmer. I can redlink Fisch if you like; I think he's notable enough for an article, something I'll probably get to eventually. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Cooney has been fairly publicly visible over the years and is still alive, in fact. It's plausible that a free use photo of her might be out there somewhere. It might also be worth seeing if Harvard would permit use of the photo of Lesser that illustrated his obituary (or any other, really; he spent 35+ years as faculty there and they named a professorship after him, so I'm sure they've got a pile of them). I'll agree that there's not much chance of an acceptable photo of Palmer. Regardless, I certainly won't oppose for their lack; if they're possible, it's just a way that the article could be further improved post-FAC. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I've sent a letter and emails to Sesame Workshop, but received no answer from them. I'll see what I can do about this problem in the coming months, at least in regards to obtaining free images of Cooney and Lesser. I think that contacting Harvard is an excellent idea. Cooney's foundation might be able to help, too. I should also put Lloyd Morrisett on this list, and other people involved in SS and other Muppet projects. Working on these articles is a long-term project; there's so much that can be done, and I'm pretty much the only person who's seriously doing it. Mind you, I'm not complaining, since I kinda like the autonomy, control, and lack of drama that brings. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:54, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
The Sesame Workshop itself is famously protective of its image rights, for admittedly good cause. I suspect you'll have better success contacting the educational institutions involved. The nice thing about this topic area is that it has such a universally positive reputation, and the people involved almost all had such long, distinguished, and drama-free careers, that it's likely much easier to convince the rights-holders to license than in more fraught areas. Best of luck with the article improvement in the rest of the topic area as well. You've got pretty close to an unlimited number of potential FAs out there. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 20:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Omayra Sánchez

Nominator(s): ceranthor 23:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it is the article I am most proud of in my history of content contributions. It is a deeply touching subject: Brianboulton accurately describes Omayra's plight as "harrowing". Somehow in the face of uncompromising misfortune and inevitable death, this spellbinding 13 year old girl remained brave, loving, and innocent. I hope the article does Omayra the justice she deserves. ceranthor 23:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by GabeMc

I'll re-read the article later and give a more detailed review, but off-hand:

  • Avoid terminal punctuation in image captions.
  • Per the MOS it's okay. "Most captions are not complete sentences, but merely sentence fragments that should not end with a period. If any complete sentence occurs in a caption, all sentences and any sentence fragments in that caption should end with a period."
  • I noticed a couple isbn-10s. Use isbn-13 whenever possible.
  • Fixed!
  • Slight inconsistencies between refs #3 and #4 and #28 (there may be others). Make consistent throughout. Also, I don't think BBC News Online should be italicized.
  • What inconsistencies are there? I combined 3 and 28 by the way. My mistake. And the reason it's italicized is due to the template, so it's beyond my control at the moment.
  • Ref #3: "BBC. Retrieved September 3, 2008." Ref #4: "(BBC). November 13, 1985." Also, if you want to avoid italics, then place "BBC News Online" as the publisher. You don't need to say BBC and BBC News. GabeMc 02:32, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Avoid use of given name. Unless there is some reason for this I am missing, the article uses Omayra were it should be using Sánchez, except where there is ambiguity such as the kind caused by mentioning several Sánchez family members in a short span of text.
  • I opted to do this since she is a child. I was using that format until Brianboulton suggested only her first name be used.
  • Prose. - "After it hit, Omayra became trapped under her own home's concrete and other debris and could not free herself." "Her own home's" is wordy prose, omit "own" as redundant excess and scan throughout for similar.
General
  • Sourcing. - Villegas, Henry (September 2003) has a redlink, I would avoid that. Same with: "written by Eduardo Santa as a response to the eruption"
Background
  • Prose. - "and killed many (up to 20,000) of its inhabitants". Consider: "and killed up to 20,000 of its inhabitants", or similar.
  • Linking. - You might want to link "scaremongering".
Should all be fixed. Thanks for the review! ceranthor 02:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Support
  • "In all, Omayra suffered for nearly three nights (roughly 60 hours) before she died at approximately 10:05 A.M...". Please give the date of death as well.
  • "Controversy broke out after descriptions of the shortages were released, proving what officials had previously indicated: that they had used the best of their supplies. " Released by the government? The description tallied with what officials indicated previously? If it tallied, then where is the controversy (in this sentence)?
  • I think left-aligned image at the start of a section is discouraged (in background section in this version).
  • "Hazard maps showing that Armero would be completely flooded after an eruption were distributed more than a month before the eruption...". Is it coincidental that the hazard maps were distributed merely a month before the eruption? Or, were there signs of a possible eruption there that prompted the distribution of the maps? The maps were distributed among the residents of the town? Also, which agency distributed/generated the maps? If those information are available, can be added.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
All added from the main Armero tragedy article. Wasn't sure how much detail that explanation warranted.
Thanks! All fixed except the one I noted. ceranthor 17:33, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • when mentioning the page number of cited reference, the article usually uses pg; however on at least two occasions I saw p. being used (author name Villegas). The style should be consistent within this article. While mentioning page range, using pg style, you are writing pgs. I don't know if this is an acceptable style.
I've used pgs before. I will fix that. ceranthor 03:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Page numbers were not used in the short excerpt I used, unfortunately. ceranthor 03:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Image review

I've meant to replace that rationale for months. Will do. ceranthor 22:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Much better, although "low resolution?" might include an answer. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Did that. ceranthor 20:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Support: I reviewed this article in some detail at peer review and I'm satisfied with the responses to the issues I raised there. I was hoping that GabeMc would finish the review begun above, but it's 12 days now... I am happy to support its promotion unless some significant fault is identified. Brianboulton (talk) 23:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all three of you for your support; it is highly appreciated! ceranthor 04:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Russian battleship Rostislav

Nominator(s): Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it meets the FAC criteria. It had a MilHist ACR two years ago and Dank has been kind enough to give it a through copyedit recently. While I'm in the WikiCup, this article is not eligible.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:50, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment the images on commons have been relocated to "Rostislav (ship, 1896)". This needs fixing. Can some of those additional images be used on this article? Second remark, there are two portal templates in the article, one in the Notes section and one in the External links section. I think one is sufficient. MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Commons link updated and second portal link deleted. Almost all of those additional images are copied from Russian website and lack a clear publishing history so they cannot be used here.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Italicization on newspaper refs is backwards - newspaper name should be italicized, article title should be in quote marks. *
  • Check consistency on newspaper refs generally
  • I don't speak Russian, so what makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    • The author(s) have written books in Russian on wrecks of the Black Sea and Sea of Azov.
  • ISBN for Bascomb? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Images A few problems, unfortunately. File:Rostislav battleship.jpg's source does work for me (this one); it has no US copyright tag; it has a PD-70 without any suggestion of who the author is. Since the file is Russian, it's home country (check) + US (no check); PD-70 was probably an abortive attempt at a US copyright tag. If you can show it was published pre-1923 then that would seem like the most obvious possibility (source needed) or find something else which may mean finding original publication. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for checking on this. The same photo is used in McLaughlin and is credited to the Naval History & Heritage Command with a catalog number so I've amended the copyright info to show that.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Support due to exemplary detailed facts and information being referenced to credible sources. The nominator also appears to be very reliable in terms of dedicating time to further clean-up in the article and appealing to users' comments in regards to the article's contents and any other concerns. Quite an interesting, well-written article. Tayisiya (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Support I put a citation needed tag in one place but other than that I think the article is great! Good work! Vazeer Akbar (talk) 10:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Good catch, cite moved to cover that sentence. Thanks for the review.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Quite a few duplicate links, Storm; some may be justified owing to the amount of prose between them but they should be reviewed (use this script to check for them). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Ian, I never knew about that tool. Cleaned everything up except the deliberate duplicates in the infobox and the main body.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 07:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
No prob. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Flying Eagle cent

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 20:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because… I think it meets the criteria. The Flying Eagle cent was the first U.S. small cent. It did not last long, but it had an impact both in ending the common use of foreign coins in the United States and in making Americans more aware of their coins. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 20:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources review: Nothing much:

  • Compare "pp" and "p" formats in refs 7 and 27
  • If you want it, there is an OCLC for the 1904 book; it is 8109299

Otherwise all looks well. Brianboulton (talk) 15:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I've added the OCLC and corrected ref 27, which should have been pp, not p. Thank you for that.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Hi Wehwalt, pls follow the usual routine of checking with a delegate before having two articles at FAC simultaneously. Granted Andrew Johnson was ready for promotion so leave was always likely but we have the same rule for all -- in fact Johnson might have been promoted before now with such a reminder... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:27, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

He's waited 137 years, it didn't hurt him to wait another week. Just trying to get a few extra eyes on the article as I left Wed. on a trip, but I'll respect your comment.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments, leaning to support: A fairly standard coin article, with a few minorish prose issues:

Lead
  • Second lead paragraph mentions the "large cent" and a decision to replace this with a smaller one, Could we have some indicaton of these sizes? I realise this info is probably in the article's main body, but this lead is quite short and perhaps coule be expanded a bit?
  • In the same spirit, a few words on the origin/nature of the "worn foreign coin" would be helpful.
  • If the coin was struck by the United States Bureau of the Mint, why wasn't it legal tender?
It wasn't made of silver or gold. It as basically a government-issued token, you needed some way to make change.. Legal tender limits on minor coinage survived until 1933. Those British Victorian copper pennies you may have seen--those weren't legal tender in the UK either, at least when they were issued. All because of the gold standard and all that.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Inception
  • What is a "billon"?
  • For clarity, "$.40" neds to be written as "$0.40", since the point is barely discernible.
  • Maybe just "issue" rather than "issuance" which is a mite pompous
Preparation
  • In British English, to "show off" means to flaunt, or make an extravagant display, so "sent to Washington for Treasury officials to show off" reads a bit oddly. Perhaps the nuance is different in American English, but an alternative may be preferable.
  • "So originated the highly-collectable 1856 Flying Eagle cent..." A touch rhetorical? Perhaps "This was the origin of..."? Prosaic, but maybe more encyclopedic.
  • "brought up in the House of Representatives" → "brought to the House of Representatives"
  • Link "planchet"
Release, production, and collecting
  • " In anticipation of large popular demand, Mint authorities built a temporary wooden structure in the courtyard of the Philadelphia facility" Possibly unnecessary detail?
It's color. It's not a long article, I think the reader is interested in the circumstances.
  • " with a new version of the cent with a shallower relief..." The "with ... with" repetition is a bit clumsy
  • "Variety" and "varieties": I think "variation" and "variations" would be better, since "variety" always suggests more than two.
It's a numismatic term and I have linked accordingly.
  • "was extended an additional two years" → "was extended for an additional two years"
  • "With commerce choked with..." "With ... with" again
  • " Snowden on his own continued the practice..." I'm not sure what is implied by "Snowden on his own". As a private individual? Also the practice that he continued needs to be clarified.

That is all. I was half hoping that Ulrich Stonewall Jackson Dunbar would make an appearance but sadly, no. Ah, well... Brianboulton (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for those comments which I will work through today, time permitting. Regarding Mr. Dunbar, I shall have to learn more of him, it strikes me he would make a useful DYK.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:15, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Those matters have been implemented, except as commented above.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to have been so long responding. I was hoping that other reviewers would join in with some comments, but things seem rather quiet here at the moment. No reason for not supporting, so I've upgraded; I hope others willl come along soon. This is a worthy series. Brianboulton (talk) 09:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I probably need to do more reviewing, but I've been traveling, but will be home today. Thanks for the review and support.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Support – this article is part of an impressive set by Wehwalt, and is well up to the prevailing standard of excellence. This comment is not in the least a reservation about my support, and what with laptops, desktops, pads, and overblown mobile phones I suppose there is no standard screen layout. But I mention, for Wehwalt's consideration, that on my newish laptop there is a four inch white gap between the header "Inception" and the start of the text. That really is the only comment I can usefully (I hope) offer on a top-notch article. – Tim riley (talk) 17:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a relatively short infobox I think the problem is. I've filled in with an image of Longacre and will keep playing with it. Thank you very much for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:52, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Support -- very nice article, and a good addition to your continuing series on numismatics. The only comment I have regards the size: I understand (I think) that this cent is the same size as the modern Lincoln penny, but I don't think the article ever makes that clear. It just says it was smaller than the large cent. Adding that comparison might help the reader. But, either way, I support. --Coemgenus (talk) 18:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I will add it in. Thank you for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Added.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Great. That's interesting about the weight, too. Good luck with the nomination. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Image check. Images look good. All are PD or gov't-produced, except for one CC, which is properly attributed. --Coemgenus (talk) 00:06, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Three supports, image and source check done.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC) .

Réunion Ibis

Nominator(s): FunkMonk (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I have added practically all known info about, most PD images, and presented all controversies relating to the bird, and it has also been copyedited. FunkMonk (talk) 16:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

I think all these issues should be fixed now. FunkMonk (talk) 10:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I do not understand why a Good Article review can be compatible with a Featured Article review, so I do not understand your rationale of referring back to your Good Article review. Snowman (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
As I said in my good article review, I felt the article was pretty much ready for FA status then. I find that the best good article reviews point towards FAC, and I try to do that in many of my own reviews; in this case, there was nothing else I could say. I read through the article again, and was happy that it was ready. I was also declaring a possible conflict of interest so that delegates could take that into account, if they felt it important. Do you now understand why I referred back to my good article review? (As an aside, why are you feeling the need to pester those who supported? It isn't like major issues have been dug up in subsequent reviews; a few small pointers have been brought up, along with some suggestions that aren't so great. Certainly nothing that suggests that the article is incomplete.) J Milburn (talk) 19:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Please withdraw the suggestion that I have pestered those supporting this article. Snowman (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Please stop pestering me... J Milburn (talk) 10:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Snowman (talk) 13:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Sheesh! Why so serious? FunkMonk (talk) 14:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I have noticed a tendency for you to support FA promotion early in the FA discussion of articles about birds; however, this is generally followed by lists of issues found by subsequent reviewers. Snowman (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Personally, my thoughts about articles are rarely the same as those of other reviewers. I review with content, not style, in mind. As you can see below, interpretation is quite individual and subjective. FunkMonk (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that reviewers bring a variety of skills and knowledge hence improvements to articles usually follow. Snowman (talk) 21:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps you should also consider whether you yourself make FA reviews more nitpicky and tedious than necessary. You frequently confuse guidelines with policy, as well as elevating your own (often eccentric) personal preferences to FA criteria. You also make blanket announcements of wanting "large changes", without actually specifying what it is you dislike. That is useless handwaving. And even when one of your subjective, non-FAC criterion suggestions are rejected, you stubbornly refuse to let them go. Sometimes it appears like you haven't even read the articles to begin with, since what you ask for is often already present, or is a complete misinterpretation. I say this from experience. Compare the length and tediousness of these two FACs where you contributed: With these where you didn't: FunkMonk (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Everyone is welcome to their own views and opinions. I have started discussions on the talk pages of Talk:Rodrigues Solitaire and Talk:Dodo about problems with verification that I think should have been fixed during FA discussions. Snowman (talk) 16:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but it is always good to take evaluation of one's behaviour into account, especially when the same issues are noticed by many different people over and over again. FunkMonk (talk) 16:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by SandyGeorgia

Oppose for now, expect to strike, multiple

  1. The Réunion Ibis (Threskiornis solitarius) is ... if the Threskiornis solitarius is an alternate name, it should be both bolded and italicized.
    This isn't done on other featured animal species articles, see for example California Condor, Lion, Bald Eagle, and Emperor Penguin. FunkMonk (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
    Yes, I agree. AFAIK all the 100+ bird FAs and the thousands of bird species articles follow this practice Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
    Alternate common names are emboldened in bird articles, but not binomial names. I understand that this style was thought to be the tidiest by consensus; although, all alternate names might logically be expected to be emboldened. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
    Yes, but then again, I don't see why this article should be the first to break the mold. FunkMonk (talk) 23:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
    Well, that's not right, but not worth dealing with if they've all been doing it wrong for a long time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    I doubt you'll find any article about a taxon with a common name that doesn't do it this way. See the guideline here: Scientific names are only bolded if the animal does not have a common name, for whatever reason. See for example Deinosuchus. FunkMonk (talk) 20:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    We had a discussion on this very point some time ago (link) and the consensus was to leave the scientific name unbolded in parentheses. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    Thank you, Cas! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  2. Images are facing off the page ... I believe the intent of the MOS guideline applies to both animals and people ... please juggle images so animals aren't looking off the page.
    I don't think that looks good, it creates clutter of images on the right side. Again, it is just a guideline for faces, not an FA criterion. Tons of other animal FAs have images that face away from the text. The problem would be the long synonym list, not the quotes. The guideline specifically says: "It is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text. However, images of people need not be reversed simply to make the person's face point towards the text, and this should not be done if the reversal would materially mislead the viewer (e.g., by making the subject of the article or section appear to have a birthmark on the left side of his face, when the birthmark is actually on the right side)." FunkMonk (talk) 20:42, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    Restore bullet point AGAIN. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:44, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    Well, sorry, but remember, no one is doing this to annoy you, I've just never dealt with this manner of responding before. FunkMonk (talk) 20:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    Move it back if you wish; I'm not going to tangle over one image. But a) there is no such thing as "clutter of images on the right", and b) I suggest the clutter here is the excess number of quote boxes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    I added the MOS guideline above. As for quote boxes, I don't see what they have to do with anything? An image can be right aligned even if there's a box. The problem is that the taxobox has a long list of synonyms, which makes it intrude far down. I've fixed it by making the list collabsible and then right aligned the image in question.FunkMonk (talk) 20:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    The point about "clutter" was that images weren't cluttering, but excess quotes might be. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
    I tend to agree about the quote box clutter. Generally I see them used for 'stand-alone' quotes, whereas most of these seem to follow directly on from the main text -- I think {{quote}} is more appropriate here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The style was implemented by someone else on a FAC I nominated some time back, and I and the reviewers tended to like it, so I've stuck to it since. The general impression was that it separated the article text from the old text in a clear way. FunkMonk (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  1. In the mid 19th century, ... missing hyphen, pls review throughout.
    Fixed the single occurrence. FunkMonk (talk) 22:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  2. An alternate name is mentioned in the second paragraph; is it not possible to get that mentioned sooner?
    Mentioned a bit sooner. FunkMonk (talk) 22:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  3. The taxonomic history of the Réunion Ibis is very convoluted, ... is there a difference between "very convoluted" and "convoluted"? Please check for redundancy.
    Removed "very". FunkMonk (talk) 22:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  4. It has been claimed that Bertrand-François Mahé de La Bourdonnais sent a "Solitaire" to France ... weasly ... by whom?
    It is attributed to Billiard, 1822, but I'm not sure who it is. Added the name. FunkMonk (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Just random checks, I stopped there, the article is not in bad shape, but some additional prose review would be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to propose more changes if necessary. FunkMonk (talk) 22:40, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I've restored my bullet points (please look at my edit summaries to understand how to preserve numbering on response); I use bullet points so that you can enter one response, referencing numbers, to help avoid insanely long FACs (which seem to be the trend of late). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea who removed the bullets, must be in the edit history somewhere. FunkMonk (talk) 20:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
You did: This is how you respond to bullet points: But you can shorten the FAC by adding a one-para response below, referencing my numbers. As in, 1, 3 and 5 fixed. Brief-- no need for FACs longer than articles because of threaded minutaie. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Alright, wasn't my intention then. But note that my FAC's only get longer than the articles themselves when Snowman drops by. He usually has a lot to say (and I personally have no problem with long FACs). See the Dodo and Mauritius Blue Pigeon discussions for comparison, where he did not chime in. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Are there any ready-made statistics on FAC lengths? Snowman (talk) 14:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Snowmanradio that this article is hard to follow, and suggest clarity can be added right here in the lead:

  • In the late 20th century, the discovery of a subfossil species of ibis led to the idea that the accounts actually referred to this bird.

The accounts of the Reunion Solitaires? "This bird" equals the Reunion Ibis? Too much confusion about which bird is which, I think can be tightened in this one sentence in the lead. Clarify "the accounts" and clarify "this bird". "The accounts" refers apparently to the previous para. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Done. All your issues should be fixed now. FunkMonk (talk) 20:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, I've struck my oppose as I've not got time for further review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool. FunkMonk (talk) 07:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by Snowmanradio

I found this article somewhat difficult to read, so I suspect that the prose needs copy editing and perhaps the article needs reorganisation. Other issues: Snowman (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

It has been copyedited already. Feel free to propose changes here. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I am anticipating that a number of reviewers will contribute to many improvements. Snowman (talk) 19:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Let's hope so, but since you express you have something specific to mind, might as well brig it up. FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Exactly when it is capitalised, it should be clearer that it is a name. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Réunion Solitaire or Rodrigues Solitaire? Snowman (talk) 19:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The Rodrigues bird is referred to only by its full name, and only in the taxonomy section. I'm not sure who would be confused. FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that understanding what is meant by Solitaire (with a capital S) added to my difficulty of reading the article. The heading is "Réunion Ibis" (the IOC and IUCN name) and I am not sure why it needs to be called a solitaire at any time except for saying that it is an alternative common name. Snowman (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
When old accounts that use "Solitaire" are referred to, it would be too presumptuous to write "ibis" in the text. As stated below, the Ibis and Solitaire can never be shown to be the same entity without doubt. See how Birdlife International cautiously terms it: "If the Réunion 'solitaires' were indeed T. solitarius" and "It seems likely that the 'solitaire' known from numerous early accounts from Réunion(Cheke 1987) and Rodrigues, Mauritius, was in fact this ibis" FunkMonk (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Unresolved. Snowman (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Or rather, rejected. You have not responded to my arguments above. FunkMonk (talk) 20:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
It is Sand Martin and House Martin. The House Martin is a martin that makes mud nests. Martin is a lower case here. It is Reuniun Solitaire, but why should "Solitaire" be capitalised? Snowman (talk) 21:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"Solitaire" was the common name for this species at the time, I don't see what it has to do with "martin", which refers to a type of bird today, and such names are not capitalised. A "solitaire" is not a type of bird. FunkMonk (talk) 21:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Check and Hume 2004 (one of the main sources) use "solitaire" 46 times in their article. It is all lower case 44 times, all upper case once in a heading, and it is capitalised only once where it is in a quote from 1897. Snowman (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Alright, good precedent. Does this include the full common name "Réunion Solitaire" as well, or is that name even used by them? FunkMonk (talk) 23:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Common names of birds are usually capitalised. Why is solitaire in inverted commas in "connected to the "solitaire" accounts."? The infobox seems inconsistent, because it is headed Reunion Ibis and the image is captioned Reunion Solitaire. Snowman (talk) 23:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Removed the quote marks. Schlegel did not know of any ibis when he drew the image based on accounts (he placed it in the genus Didus in the same article), so retroactively labelling it a such is not needed. See also the caption at King Island Emu. The original terminology is of historical importance. FunkMonk (talk) 00:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I note that in his review (below) User Casliber thought; "... it might be simpler and less misleading to remove "of the Réunion Solitaire" from the caption of the taxobox illustration", and that it has been removed. Snowman (talk) 11:19, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
No, the image has simply been replaced with another one. The caption is the same for that image, it's just under description. FunkMonk (talk) 16:54, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I refer to this edit, which removed "Reunion Solitaire" from the caption of the infobox image to reduce confusion. There is now a new image and a new caption. Snowman (talk) 17:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
So it shouldn't be a problem either way now. FunkMonk (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Fixed, seems to have been added during copyediting. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In the introduction; "Therefore, the Réunion Solitaire was classified as a member of the pigeon subfamily Raphinae, and even placed in the same genus as the Dodo by some authors." This is like saying "Therefore, the Earth was thought to be flat", without putting it in context. Snowman (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The context is given prior to the sentence you quote. You took it out of its context yourself. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that this sentence should clearly say that it is an out-of-date point of view. Snowman (talk) 19:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll try to tweak it. But it seems a bit redundant, since the sentence is preceded by "were incorrectly assumed to refer to white relatives of the Dodo" FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Dod-eersen" this appears in an old quote. I would not expect many readers to understand this unless they were interested in Dodos and old Dutch journals from ships. Snowman (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Hence the explanation prior to the quote. But I'll clarify it. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
It see the amendment, but is is clear? Snowman (talk) 21:02, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
What do you think? FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I am not entirely sure how a new reader would see this, because I am aware that "Dod-eersen" can refer to a Dodo in old ship journals. However, I expect that this odd old Dutch word would add to the difficulty in reading the article for many. What about using an explanatory footnote? Snowman (talk) 11:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll give it some square brackets then, more likely to be viewed by a reader than a footnote. FunkMonk (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
They don't, the taxonomy and evolution sections are always first, here they're just longer than average, since that's basically most there is to say about the bird. Can you show me any bird FAs where these sections aren't first? See also my examples above, which also have the same structure. FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
This article does not have an evolution section, but a re-organisation to include a section on evolution would probably be helpful. This article has a section headed "Modern identification", before the description heading. Snowman (talk) 19:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The identity issue is obviously part of the taxonomy. Could as well be called "modern taxonomic interpretation" or similar. I can rename it, or simply merge the sections, whatever you like. Moving it further down wouldn't make sense. We need an explanation and disclaimer before "merging" the entities in the lower sections. FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
It might be clearer to separate "historical confusion" from "modern nomenclature and taxonomy". Snowman (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, perhaps with taxonomy as heading, and two subheadings. I'll try something out. FunkMonk (talk) 22:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that it would be worth putting the description section earlier, since the taxonomy section is rather long and complicated. Snowman (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
In this case, I think it is a bad idea. The description and behaviour sections are pretty much a scientific synthesis of facts about the fossil ibis and the old Solitaire accounts, a thorough explanation is needed before the reader gets to that section. And a brief description is also given in the taxonomy section, already. FunkMonk (talk) 13:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps, the redundancy of repeating a description in the taxonomy can be avoided by putting the description section higher up the page. This issue may not affect FA status. Snowman (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
The first description featured is in an old quote, so the redundancy is not in the text itself. FunkMonk (talk) 20:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Article inconsistency: The article says; "No specimens of the bird were ever collected." It then goes on to say that two were sent to France (but did not survive) and that Billiard claimed that Bertrand-François Mahé de La Bourdonnais sent another to France. Snowman (talk) 20:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
They were sent, but died on the ship, and the remains weren't preserved. So perhaps it should be "no specimens were ever preserved". "Collected" was used in the source. As for the one bird, the article explains why this was most likely not a Réunion Solitaire. FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that you can see the problem. Snowman (talk) 21:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Possible omission: the African origin of this ibis. See the subsection "Madagascar: African affinities" in Cheke and Hume (2008). This could feature in a new subsection headed "Evolution". The Wiki article says a close relative is "... the Straw-necked Ibis (T. spinicollis) of Australia." However, Cheke and Hume distances the Reunion Ibis from the Australian ibis saying that they "relate best to African forms.Snowman (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it's enough for an entire section, but could be mentioned near the part about its closest relatives in the identity subsection. As for Hume's claim that's it's closer related to the African form, the actual describers of the bird makes no such claim, and Hume doesn't seem to go into detail about why. FunkMonk (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The Cheke and Hume paper says that the Reunion Ibis clearly has an African origin and is descended from Malagasy forms. Going on this, I think that the article might have the wrong emphasis in saying that its closest relatives are the African Ibis (from Africa) and the Straw-necked Ibis (from Australia). Some of the other Ibises of the same genus are also mainly black and white, so the article's emphasis of the black and white colour of those two ibises does not make sense to me. It is difficult to know what to do when different authorities have different opinions; however, there is no ambiguity in Cheke and Hume, who say "clearly has an African origin", so why ignore it. Snowman (talk) 21:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The thing is, the actual describers, Mourer-Chauviré and Moutou did a cladistic analysis, where those two species were found to be about equally close to the Réunion bird. Ther Australian one is even closer in one feature: "In T. solitarius the minor and major metacarpals are fused over a longer distance, at both proximal and distal extremities, than in T. aethiopicus, but the same is true in T. spinicollis". I'm not sure what Cheke and Hume base their conclusions on, and they've already been proved wrong with their interpretation of Mascarinus as a psittaculine, for example. FunkMonk (talk) 21:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Mourer-Chauviré and Moutou (1987) or Cheke and Hume (2008)? What is the preference for a 1987 paper over a 2008 paper? Snowman (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm referring to the 1999 paper. Morphological analysis is more reliable than guesswork and assumptions, I'd say. Only genetic testing can make sure, as the Mascarinus case clearly shows. Should be possible some day, and until then, the African hypothesis doesn't warrant more than the sentence I've given it. Especially since many Mascarene birds actually seem to have an Asian origin. FunkMonk (talk) 22:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The Mascarene Parrot has an African origin closely related to the Lesser Vasa Parrot from Madagascar (2012 genetic study). Snowman (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Whereas Cheke and Hume proposed an Asian origin, only to be proven wrong a few years later. The Dodo and Rodrigues Solitaire, on the other hand, have been shown to be of Asian origin, through genetic analysis. The jury is still out on the Red Rail. In any case, the following should be enough: "The African Sacred Ibis also has similar coloured plumage to that described in the old descriptions of the Réunion Solitaire. It may be closer to that species, and therefore of African origin." FunkMonk (talk) 22:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
But the article indicates that "the Straw-necked Ibis (T. spinicollis) of Australia." is its second closest relative and the section that I have read in Cheke and Hume does not imply this. Cheke and Hume indicates that ibises on Reunion are "clearly related to African forms". The only relevant in-line reference is to Cheke and Hume. If you have used information from Mourer-Chauviré and Moutou (1999), then it should be included as an in-line reference here. Snowman (talk) 22:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I see, I moved the 1995 reference forward, which says the same. FunkMonk (talk) 23:03, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I suggest a spot check on randomly selected text for missing in-line references. Snowman (talk) 23:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I don't see how the sentence implies more than the Cheke Hume source. It simply lists the two birds, without claiming anything in regard to closest relation. So it was fine even before. FunkMonk (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Where does it say in Cheke and Hume specifically that the Straw-necked Ibis is so closely related? The statement in Cheke and Hume "clearly related to African forms" seems to contradict that the Straw-necked Ibis of Australia is very closely related. Snowman (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
See the box on page 103. But that's irrelevant now, since the citation has been changed. FunkMonk (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
This box is not used as an in-line reference. Has information for the article been sourced from this box? Snowman (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, I replaced the citation. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • This ibis is not a white dodo, so why are there so many images of a white Dodo in the article. Two of the images of a white Dodo look similar. I think that the images of the white Dodo are excessive. Snowman (talk) 22:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
The two 1600s paintings were directly responsible for the entire white Dodo myth, so I don't think so. The Frohawk image shows how embedded and accepted the idea was in 19th century literature, so it is important too. The latter is also so frequently republished that it is good to finally point out here that it is actually based on nothing, even I thought it depicted an actual specimen before I read up on the bird some years ago. I agree that such images should not be used outside the taxonomy sections, but they aren't anyway. FunkMonk (talk) 22:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
There are four images showing a white Dodo, but the ibis is not a white Dodo. The captions do not explain the confusion over the white Dodo and I think the captions are not adequate. Why does the article need the image captioned; "Frohawk's 1907 adaptation of the Withoos Dodo"? Snowman (talk) 11:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, the ibis is not a Dodo, but the Solitaire was thought to be. They were believed to be different entities until recently. We can never be sure if they represented the same bird. But I'll expand the captions. FunkMonk (talk) 13:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Why not make another article for Reunion Solitaire (Raphus solitarius)? Snowman (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
We can never be sure if the "Du" of New Caledonian legend actually is Sylviornis. But I doubt anyone would ever create a separate "Du" article, since the likelihood of them being the same is so large. Same in this case. Remember, there are several entities within the "Solitaire" complex that could warrant articles if we took it that far: The Ibis, the white Dodo, the white Rodrigues Solitaire, and the Réunion Solitaire itself. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll give the estimated dates, the 1600s paintings have not been dated exactly. FunkMonk (talk) 23:03, 21 January 2013 (UTC))
  • In the introduction "... and the bird was first described in 1987." This sounds odd, because there are images of the bird dating back to about 1600 in the article. Snowman (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Should be scientifically described. And in any case, no contemporary images of the actual Solitaire exist. The white Dodos are likely just albinistic Mauritius birds, as ther article states. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
That's what members of raphinae are called. There is no other term. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
... that does not make it easy-to-underdstand jargon. Snowman (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
When it is preceded by "the Réunion Solitaire was long believed to be a member of the pigeon subfamily Raphinae", what else could it possibly mean? I don't think we need to underestimate the intellect of the readers. FunkMonk (talk) 22:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
"Raphinae" is also jargon. An intelligent person may wonder why the introduction is written by using two different words (which both turn out to indicate the same sub-family). It certainly would make it more difficult to read by some. We are looking for simplification in the introduction, so use anything possible to make it easier to read. Why not write it differently and only use one word for the subfamily. Make the introduction easy to read, clear, and unambiguous. Snowman (talk) 23:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I suggest you take a look at our featured dinosaur articles, which use similar terms. There is no common name for this family, unlike many other bird families. This article, and many others about extinct birds, have more in common with those covered by the palaeontology project. FunkMonk (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The readability issue of having two different words of jargon in the introduction and both indicate the same sub-family is unresolved. Snowman (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Raphidae is the subfamily. A "raphine" is a member of that subfamily. Just like a "tyrannosaurid" is a member of Tyrannosauridae. There is no issue to resolve, unless our goal is to dumb down the article. That's what simple Misplaced Pages is for. FunkMonk (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I fixed it myself by saying "this subfamily" instead of "raphine". Snowman (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In the introduction "wiped-out"; probably unconventional language in science. Might be difficult to read by people who have a non-English first language. Snowman (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
That is one of the weirdest arguments I've ever read in a FAC. This article is written for English speakers. This is the English Misplaced Pages. My first language isn't English, yet I don't have a problem understanding what I write here. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
My only language is English and "wipe out" sounds odd to me as used in the introduction. Of course, I know what wipeout (wikilink to a dab page) means, however I think that "extinct" should be written in instead, because this would be more conventional and precise. Snowman (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I worded it a bit more eloquently. I think "wipe out" is crude, rather than hard to understand. FunkMonk (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that I was entirely correct in pointing to this problem and suggesting a sensible improvement. Snowman (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Whatever the cause, I think the present wording is indeed better. FunkMonk (talk) 22:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Wiped out occurs in "had wiped out the wildlife in the lowlands". I think that you should have realised that this phase appears in the article more than once. Snowman (talk) 00:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Why? You only brought up the intro. The same term is used in the source, so I don't see why it should be replaced throughout. FunkMonk (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that an alternative word would be better than wiped out. Did cats wipe out all wildlife in the lowlands? Did they wipe out all animals, birds, fish and reptiles in the lowlands? An added complexity is the wildlife can also mean vegetation. Snowman (talk) 00:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
The source says both "wildlife" and "wipe out". I don't think it's up to us to reinterpret the sources and give info a potentially different meaning. FunkMonk (talk) 00:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Unresolved. Snowman (talk) 01:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Or rather something you don't personally like, which has no relevance to actual FAC criteria. This is getting silly, could we please stick to constructive criticism that is based on actual FAC criteria so this page doesn't get longer than the last one? FunkMonk (talk) 01:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that you are on thin ice here. How can feral cats wipe out wildlife in the lowlands? Surely, they must have left some forms of wildlife to exist there. Snowman (talk) 01:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Ask Cheke and Hume. Anywhow, just to get the ball rolling, I've written "decimated the wildlife" instead, also sounds fancier. FunkMonk (talk) 01:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that you see the problem. Personally speaking, I think that "decimated" is not the right word here. Decimate has more than one meaning. It could mean reduce by a tenth (as also used in Roman times) or severely reduce. Snowman (talk) 13:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
It's more that, at this point, I just want to get on with it. So what do you suggest? FunkMonk (talk) 14:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I have fixed it myself using "last stronghold" and "feral cats hunted wildlife". I note that User FunkMonk made an improvement based on my version. Snowman (talk) 20:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In the introduction "... merely showed an aberrant Mauritius Dodo." This can not be left like this in the introduction, since readers who only read the introduction are likely to get the wrong impression and have no idea that the white Dodo could be a normal juvenile Dodo (or a normal female). Snowman (talk) 21:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
It has never been suggested it was white because it was a female. And aberrant merely means different from the norm, which is of course a grey Dodo. FunkMonk (talk) 21:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I have seen discussion about the white Dodo including that it could be a normal juvenile. I recall that the discussion also included that it could be a normal female. I think that the introduction gives the wrong impression and needs amending. In many bird species young juvenile birds are a different colour to the adult bird and this does not make the young bird aberrant. See the section on the White Dodo in the Dodo article, which mentions the possibility of a white Dodo being a female or a juvenile. Snowman (talk) 22:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I've changed it. As for the Dodo article, since I wrote it in the first place, I know that you've misinterpreted it. The sex dimorphism theory was to explain why the images showed yellow wings instead of black as in the accounts, it has nothing to do with the white colour. FunkMonk (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
A white Dodo might be a normal juvenile Dodo. Snowman (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
It might, but note also that the Dodo in this painting has been speculated to be juvenile, and it isn't particularly white. FunkMonk (talk) 22:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Both images could be correct depending on what age they change colour. Snowman (talk) 23:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, either is really irrelevant now, since the wording has already been changed. FunkMonk (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Only if you point out exactly what needs to be rewritten. Not all these suggestions are particularly usable. FunkMonk (talk) 21:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
My point that I am making is that I have found a number of factors in the introduction that make it difficult to read and perhaps some parts could be misleading. I have listed a few problems from the introduction to point authors of the article in what I think is the right direction. Snowman (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Replacing a few words hardly counts as a "complete rewrite". FunkMonk (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
A few things in the introduction have been improved. However, I think that the introduction continues to have readability issues. I think it may be best for new reviewers to have a look. Snowman (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, if the issues are so obvious and striking, they shouldn't be too hard to point out, no? FunkMonk (talk) 22:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I think I have helped to unscramble some of the factual content of the introduction. Some people are really good and quick at copy-editing and I would rather hand over to a copy-editor to handle the complexities of the English language relevant to the introduction at this juncture. Snowman (talk) 23:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Alright. But note that it has already been copyedited, and that no one else seem to be this confused by the intro so far. FunkMonk (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia has commented on the introduction (or lead); see this edit. Snowman (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
All her suggestions were subsequently fixed, so that is hardly relevant now. But anyhow, let's wait and see, if you don't have more suggestions yourself. FunkMonk (talk) 23:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Have you noticed that she is currently opposing FA status? Snowman (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
She hasn't responded since I fixed the issues, so I'm not sure why it should come as a surprise. FunkMonk (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Unresolved. Snowman (talk) 00:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Eh, what is unresolved? You have not proposed any changes in this section. FunkMonk (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I have listed above a sample of issues in the introduction and I am anticipating that editors will be proactive and fix other problems like it in the introduction. I also think that the introduction is too long (see below) mainly because of too much detail on old taxonomy and old nomenclature. Snowman (talk) 01:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Problem is, the bulk of literature about this bird is about old taxonomy and interpretations, since there is practically nothing else known about the bird. You can't expect this article to have a different focus than all actual published literature about the subject, that is pretty absurd. FunkMonk (talk) 01:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, since the intro is supposed to be a summary of the entire article, the space given to taxonomic history is appropriate, since more than half of the article itself is about this. FunkMonk (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
There is no perfect introduction, but a suspect few more improvements can be made and I hope more reviewers have a look. Snowman (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Introduction length: My impression is that there is too much detail in the introduction particularly on old taxonomy and nomenclature, so I decided to look at WP:LEADLENGTH. It suggests that an article of 15,000–30,000 characters should aim to have two or three paragraphs in the introduction. Currently article readable prose size (text only) is 16 kB (2725 words) and the introduction has four paragraphs. Snowman (talk) 00:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree, the taxonomic history is very important in this case. Unless someone else chimes in and complains about it, I think it's fine. FunkMonk (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Unresolved. Snowman (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
You haven't suggested anything that is actually in the FA criteria. The intro to article ratio is just a guideline, not a criterion. Likewise, the detail issue is subjective. Drastic changes that are not obvious improvements, like many of those you propose, should at least have more support from other reviewers before I'll consider them. FunkMonk (talk) 00:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
After actually looking at the guideline, there is only a suggestion of how long the intro should be in relation to the article, not how short. So your demand is misleading. FunkMonk (talk) 01:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I am aware that the suggested introduction are guidelines, but I suspected that there was too much difficult-to-read detail in the introduction before I reminded myself of the length guidelines. I recall some FA discussions that were the catalyst for editors to go to a lot of trouble to get the introduction to an appropriate size. Snowman (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
But what you propose has nothing to do with the actual guideline. The guideline doesn't indicate the intro should be shorter. It is about the minimum length of intros in relation to text, not maximum. FunkMonk (talk) 01:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article". See WP:LEADLENGTH. Snowman (talk) 01:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Immediately followed by "As a general guideline—not an absolute rule", while linking to "Ignore all rules". You're a bit selective with your quotes there. It is by no means a FAC criterion, that should be pretty clear, and has no bearing on whether this article should pass or fail. FunkMonk (talk) 01:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
As far as I can see, the introduction is quite a bit longer than the guidelines suggest, so this is a relevant talking point here. Snowman (talk) 00:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I note that User FunkMunk has shortened the introduction with this edit. Snowman (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Which should be a good thing, no? FunkMonk (talk) 06:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that it is a good that you shortened the introduction. However, I am puzzled why you initially thought the length was fine after I had suggested the introduction was too long. Snowman (talk) 19:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, that's just one of those things I do to keep you happy! FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The important thing about the lead is that it summarises, in the correct proportion, the key points of the article. Its precise length or paragraph count is secondary to this. It is far better for a lead to be slightly too long than, as in most cases, far too short. In a perfect world the two paragraphs which deal with taxonomy would be merged and slightly shortened while the end of the last paragraph would be split to a new, slightly extended one on ecology, habitat and extinction, but this is a matter of slight sentence-shuffling: FA-class is not reserved for perfect articles. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
^See, that is a constructive suggestion, with tangible pointers instead of hand-waving. I'll see what I can do. FunkMonk (talk) 14:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I have now reworked the intro, following the specific and helpful suggestions made by Thumperward. FunkMonk (talk) 16:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I am grateful for User Thumperward's suggestions, which are very likely to be useful for fixing readability issues that I have raised. I think User Thumperward's has expressed his insight eloquently. Snowman (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes. The reason why it was impossible to implement it when you suggested it was that you mixed up two unrelated issues, length and content, without actually pointing out anything specific in the text. Please be a bit more concise with your suggestions henceforward. That is the "blanket statement" problem I mentioned above, which you need to take seriously if your reviews are to be of any use. FunkMonk (talk) 17:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I note your request to be spoon fed. Nevertheless, I think that general comments can be received well by pro-active Wikipedians with an open mind. I make general comments and specific comments. I have a background is science, and I prefer to leave systematic copy editing of the English language and most MoS issues to editors who specialise in these areas. 19:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
That statement is a bit incongruent with this edit. Expressing oneself concisely has nothing to do with "spoon-feeding". That is quite an important quality to have on a text based project like this. Again, handwaving is nothing but a waste of time. I won't make drastic changes to an article if your only argument is "I don't like the intro because I don't get it", without any specific suggestions. The problem is that you don't take rejection calmly, but stubbornly attach yourself to every minor suggestion you make, as if it was core Misplaced Pages policy. FunkMonk (talk) 19:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Everyone is entitled to there own views and opinions. Snowman (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but if a change you suggest isn't an obvious improvement, but even a degradation, you have to accept if it isn't implemented, and not just label the issue as "unresolved". It is not "unresolved", it is rejected as not being an improvement, and as being irrelevant to FA criteria and Misplaced Pages policies. And then we can move on to the next issue, instead of argung in circles for a month every damn time. FunkMonk (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
There is no perfect introduction. After recent changes, I think that the introduction may be approaching FA standard, and I hope that more reviewers have a look at it. There seems to be repetition with both "reduced flight capabilities" and "It had difficulty flying" in the introduction, and this seems to be an example of an obvious remaining problem. Snowman (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
It is intentional. First instance refers to the old accounts, the second refers to the fossils. I'll clarify it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been thinking about the length of the introduction, which now consists of four paragraphs including a double-sized second paragraph. The suggested length is two or three paragraphs for an article the size of this one. I think that the introduction needs to be simplified and shortened. I am aware that my suggestion is does not offer any specific copy-editing suggestions and that Wiki guidelines on introduction length are not strict rules, so I would welcome opinions on the length and complexity of the introduction. If there is a consensus, then editors might like to focus on more specific ways to make it easier to read and perhaps shorter. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
As Thumperward noted above, the issue of length isn't really an FA criterion. So I don't see what would objectively be gained, other than your personal approval. FunkMonk (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
This introduction = 402 words. Free prose in entire article = 2743 words. About 14.7% of the free prose is the introduction in this article. I think that the length of the introduction is a relevant criteria to discuss in here. I note that the length of introductions is also discussed in Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Augustinian theodicy/archive1 and Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Aaliyah (album)/archive1. These were the first two examples that I found of long introductions that had been discussed in FA discussions and I expect that there are probably more. Snowman (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Then we need to know how long those intros were before we can compare. In any case, it is not an FA criterion, and we have already discussed the issue at length, and reached a compromise. At this point, it's just useless ant fucking. Pardon my French. FunkMonk (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Then rephrase it if you don't like it, don't just remove it. FunkMonk (talk) 21:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that your reply could be written differently. It is jargon and I do not know what it means. Unresolved. Snowman (talk) 21:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Have you read the article? "As contemporary accounts are inconsistent on whether the Solitaire was flightless or had some flight capability, Mourer-Chauvire suggested that this was dependent on fat-cycles; it was described as being "fat", so perhaps it could not fly when it was so, but could when it was thin." FunkMonk (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
This sounds really unusual to me. Are there any other wild birds that can not fly when they are fat and can fly when they are thin? The article says "Mourer-Chauvire suggested that this was dependent on fat-cycles", which has turned into "seasonal fat-cycles" in the introduction. There is therefore information in the introduction regarding the nature of fat-cycles (whatever they are), which is not in the text of the article. Snowman (talk) 22:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Seasonal fat cycles is apparently a feature of many Mascarene birds. I think Cheke and Hume go into more detail on this. I'll add "seasonal" to the main text then. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
The whole sentence is now"; Subfossil wing-bones indicate it had reduced flight capabilities, a feature perhaps linked to seasonal fat-cycles." I think that this sentence will tend to mystify readers. Surely, the most important factor linked to reduced flight capabilities is the absence of predators on the island and hence a reduced evolutionary drive to preserve flight. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, intros are not supposed to go into detail, they're mere summaries. If people are mystified, they can just read the article. FunkMonk (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 23:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Why is old Dutch needed here? Snowman (talk) 23:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
For colour. FunkMonk (talk) 00:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I am mystified. Vogel means bird, but two on-line translators did not translate "walgh" or "walghvogel". Snowman (talk) 12:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Then what? Do I need to explain the numerous etymologies for "dod-eers" too? FunkMonk (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Settlers, fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 00:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I've never encountered a source using these, I think it was only briefly used in the 90s, and will never be used again. FunkMonk (talk) 15:19, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
See IUCN species page for a reference for the Reunion Sacred Ibis. Snowman (talk) 16:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I know, but their mere presence there doesn't mean the names are in use. They may have been used a few times each in the literature, but are abandoned now. In any case, wasn't it you who craved a shorter intro? Adding a horde of defunct names won't make it shorter. FunkMonk (talk) 16:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that readers who arrive on the page via redirects will be helped by including these alternate names in the introduction (which needs simplification in my opinion). Snowman (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I doubt anyone would even search for those names. They could perhaps be mentioned in the article, but again, I know of no literature that use them or explain them. FunkMonk (talk) 07:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
See The Sixth Extinction website, which only uses Réunion Sacred Ibis, Réunion Flightless Ibis as English common names. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The sacred part could be added, I'm not so sure with "flightless". FunkMonk (talk) 16:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I would agree. Of course, "flightless" may be a misnomer. Snowman (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Since Réunion was not visited by Europeans until 1635, the 1611 painting could not have shown a bird from there."; See in "Flightless Birds" by Clive Roots. 2006. page 189. It says Portuguese saw the ibis in 1613. Snowman (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
That is so incorrect that it hardly warrants a comment. First of all, Francois Leguat coined the name for the Rodrigues bird after the Réunion species decades later, the author seems to be misinterpreting or citing outdated sources. Below he gives an equally incorrect account of the Broad-billed Parrot. FunkMonk (talk) 15:19, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
"Since Réunion was not visited by Europeans until 1635, ..."; the en-Wiki and fr-Wiki articles on Réunion also says that Portugese visited the island before 1635 and these parts of the Wiki articles are referenced. Snowman (talk) 16:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I removed it, the source was a bad summary of another paper which did not make the exact same claim. FunkMonk (talk) 00:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Why not quote Dubois directly from page 170 of his book? I might be wrong, but it seems to me that there may be slightly different ways to translate certain parts of the quote. For example, his book does not mention a "Turkey-chicks", as far as I can determine. It also seems to say "one of the best game" and not "It is the best game", but I am not very good on the French language and used on-line translators. Snowman (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll check the date issue out. As for the quote, I'd rather use more complete quotes in authorised translations than snipped ones. Differences may be due to editions of the works. For example, only the first edition of Bontekoe's book includes an engraving of a Dodo, later ones don't. In any case, "Poullets d'Inde" is "turkeys", see also: FunkMonk (talk) 16:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
If quote boxes are going to be used on this page, then I think that old quotes should have the original source for validation. I am fairly sure that some Wikipedians specialise in translations, so it should be relatively easy to obtain a translation of the short section of the original French book. Snowman (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, I'd rather use authoritative sources than homebrewed stuff. Verifiability, you know, it's a Misplaced Pages tenet. And again, there is no problem with that translation, turkeys are mentioned. It is your own oversight. FunkMonk (talk) 17:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Surely, it will be easier to verify with the original book as one of the sources. Snowman (talk) 17:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Then go ahead and add it as a citation next to the existing one. FunkMonk (talk) 17:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Two on-line translators say "Poulets d'Inde" (with one "l") means "chickens of India" not turkeys. Walter Rothchild (W.R.) translated it as "Porphyrio", see a quote from the same book on the Réunion Night Heron article. Snowman (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
You won't get far with a direct Google translation, that should be pretty obvious. See: http://fr.wiktionary.org/poulet_d%E2%80%99Inde It basically means "fowl of India", as in West India. Thus turkeys. See also: http://fr.wikipedia.org/Dinde "Ramené en Europe par les conquistadors espagnols en 1521, lors de la Conquête du Mexique, que l'on croyait être les Indes, ce volatile a pris le nom de « poule d'Inde », que l'usage a ramené à « dinde ». -- Curieusement, les Anglo-Saxons le désignent sous le nom de « poule de Turquie » ('Turkey Hen')." FunkMonk (talk) 17:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that we need a French speaking Wikipedian to help out with translation, because two on-line translators say it mean chicken and Walter Rothchild says it means Porphyro (see above). I do not know much about French, so you are probably correct about the Turkey. I am puzzled by Rothchilds interpretation. Has the meaning of the word changed over the centuries? Snowman (talk) 17:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
So the article says it means "Turkey-chicks" and you say it means "Turkey" or "Turkey hen" above? See French dictionary, which I think says that "dinde" is an abbreviation for "poulet d’Inde". Where did the "-chick" part come from in the quote featured in the article? Snowman (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
"Poulet" can have various meanings, especially since it seems to be archaic. Even in English, "chicken" can even refer to an adult bird, as long as it is food. As for Rothschild, he wasn't exactly known for being cautious with his interpretations of old sources. FunkMonk (talk) 00:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
...but "-chick" in English does imply a young bird or a very young bird. Saying that a bird has legs like a turkey chick is not very descriptive without specifying the age of the chick. I think that the Frenchman was using everyday animal comparisons in his account that people would easily understand. Similarly many anatomy descriptions are based on everyday items; for example a "nutmeg liver". Snowman (talk) 12:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
In any case, the 1848 translation by Strickland omits "chick", so we could perhaps use his instead. FunkMonk (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Another difference is that the 1897 translation says "It is one of the best Game on the Island" at the end (the same as Google translator). I think that translation is a art and subjective, so I suggest providing more than one in-line citation for the sourcing of a translation. Snowman (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, if it pleases you, change it. Again, these things are nitpicks that go beyond FA criteria, but feel free to add what you like. I won't. FunkMonk (talk) 19:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Hume and Cheke 2004 call it a turkey in their paper when they refer to Dubois' work. See also note 2 in that paper where they attribute Oliver as the translator and point out another error in Oliver's translation, which appears in the article, helping to prove that the quote is actually from Oliver's work. To me it seems that the translation peculiarities indicate that sections of Oliver's 1897 work appears in long quotes in the article and these are not properly attributed. Attribution is a basic principal on the Wiki that a stub should be compliant with. Snowman (talk) 00:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Possible omissions; old quotes are sourced from translations in books. Verification would be better if the original version of the quote is also provided as a source. I have recently added one old source for DuBois's description of the ibis, which was known as a solitaire at that time. Snowman (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to add what you find. But I won't be doing any searching for such, it isn't necessary, there's no urgent need for us to go past what recent published sources say. FunkMonk (talk) 00:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that it would be best source the 1897 translation by Captain Pasfield, which is a little different to the version currently used that is copied from the modern journals and books. Using the 1897 translation, the work of translation can be attributed with certainty and the PD copyright can be assured. Snowman (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I would like to know what the differences are first. This translation is from 1907. There's a different one from 1848. FunkMonk (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
If you have sourced 1907 translations, then that is fine. However, the article's documentation of the 1907 translation including attribution for the translator is incomplete or missing. Snowman (talk) 17:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I'd say that's what citations are for. We don't attribute photos in captions either, unless such info is of interest to the reader. FunkMonk (talk) 17:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
...but the article does not give attribution (to the translators of quotes) in citations or anywhere else. The in-line citations would be a good place to put all the attributions for citations, so that they can be seen under a heading such as "Notes" or "References" towards the end of the article. Of course, images have their attributions on the image file. Snowman (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "The Réunion Ibis lived alongside other recently extinct birds such as the ... ."; It also lived on the island with creatures that are still present. A broader range of animals would describe the fauna of its time better. It lived with a variety of lizards, geckos, and insects that are likely to be seen as food by ibis. Snowman (talk) 22:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to add it if you can source it. FunkMonk (talk) 00:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Listing creatures that have also become extinct does not add much to ecology. Snowman (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
So what do you think of the "paleoecology" sections that are present in all dinosaur FAs? They were part of their ecological systems when they existed, so of course they matter. What's left of native wildlife there is so pathetic to not even being an ecosystem anymore. The main point of Cheke and Hume's work is to theoretically reconstruct the ancient ecosystem, by listing such extinct animals. FunkMonk (talk) 16:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
A creature that became extinct a few hundred years ago also lived with many creatures that are still living, so a list of extinct animals seems rather limited to me. It might be different creatures that became extinct millions of years ago. Snowman (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your last sentence means. All these animals are recently extinct. If Cheke and Hume find faunal lists of extinct animals useful for understanding the ancient ecosystem, I don't think there's much reason for us to doubt them, or that our doubt even merits action. FunkMonk (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by Snowmanradio (2)

  • Some of the quotes in the article are copies of translations of old PD foreign language works. If the newer English versions are copyrighted, then complete paragraphs of the translation should not be copied to the Wiki. "This is true as well of the translations in the Penguin Classics series. Although faithful translations of public domain works, they each are protected by copyright."; see Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Copyright#Derivative works. It presume that it will be necessary to find out when the translations were published in order determine the copyright status of translated quotes in the article. Snowman (talk) 11:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
There are only 19th century translations. Newer sources simply use those too. Republishing PD stuff doesn't renew its copyright. But even if we assume they were copyrighted, see the long copyrighted quote at: Thylacine FunkMonk (talk) 16:28, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems that translating a PD work gives the newly created translated work a new copyright. I think that the copyright and attribution of all the quotations should be checked systematically in a similar way that the copyrights of images is checked. Snowman (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, irrelevant here, since all the translations are from 1907 and before. FunkMonk (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
You might be correct, but how does anyone know from the current documentation in the article. Snowman (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll have a look. But again, how do you explain the quote in Thylacine? It seems to me that quotes come under fair use. They're not hosted on Commons, after all. FunkMonk (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I have had a quick look at Thylacine and provisionally I would say the quote from R Dawkins is probably copyvio. Also, I think that it should have been excluded with Misplaced Pages:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources. I do not know if it is fair use or not, but the fair use rules on the en Wiki are strict and I will be surprised if it is fair use. It does not seem necessary or important for the article to me. Snowman (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Would be good to know what the actual guidelines say about copyrighted quotes. FunkMonk (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The original quotes and translations (where necessary) of the quotes may all be in PD by luck rather than judgement, but I think that you will need to make this obvious in the documentation by finding out about the date of the translation. This is a consequence of copying long quotes into the Wiki article, which must not be a copy vio. Snowman (talk) 23:58, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Quotations#Copyrighted_material_and_fair_use So in theory, a few non-PD quotes could be used, as long they are attributed properly. Luckily, ours are PD. "Fair use does not need to be invoked for public domain works or text available under a CC-By-SA-compatible free license, so in such cases the extent of quotations is simply a matter of style." FunkMonk (talk) 00:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
There will not be a copyright problem if the works and translations are all early, as they seem to be. I have done a rather random check on some of the quotes, but I have not done a systematic check on all of the quotes. Snowman (talk) 00:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
You mean who translated it? That's what the citations are for. And in many cases it isn't even stated in the books. Since they're PD anyway, it doesn't really matter, but add if you find out. FunkMonk (talk) 16:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, on the Wiki it is much more preferable to attribute PD works, and I presume that this will include the work of translation of PD works. I have found out that Captain Samuel Pasfield Oliver translated Dubois and Leguat. Snowman (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, could give an interesting historical context, if anything. Again, add what you find. FunkMonk (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Giving the proper attributions for the work of translation would be fair. I do not see what this has got to do with historical context. My role here is as a reviewer. Snowman (talk) 17:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, since these things go beyond FAC criteria, if you want them added, you must do it yourself. I don't find it particularly important. I don't see any guidelines that say what you propose is necessary. FunkMonk (talk) 19:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Attribution is a basic principal here. Even Stub articles should have appropriate attribution. I see that you have used Rothchild (1907), as a source for some of the quotes in the article. Sometimes Rothchild says that his quotes are from Dubois (1674) and translated, but he does not say who the translator was, as far as I can see. Snowman (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, the quotes themselves have sources, and have been republished by practically all subsequent authors. You need to demonstrate that it is an FA criterion to show who translated a PD text in a published source over a century ago before I'll waste time tracking this down. Or you can do it yourself, if you find it so important. The point of attribution on Misplaced Pages is for verification, not credit. From this point, suggestions that are not related to actual FA criteria will be ignored, unless feasible. This FAC doesn't need to take a month. FunkMonk (talk) 22:54, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that the article had got blocks of texts in quotes from Oliver's 1897 translation. The quotes in the article have the same style, peculiarities, and errors as Oliver's work. I think that Dubois quotes in the article should attribute Oliver for the translation from French and source his book. See Misplaced Pages:Plagiarism#Public-domain_sources, which says "Whether copyright-expired or in the public domain for other reasons, material from public-domain sources is welcome on Misplaced Pages, but such material must be properly attributed.". This is important. Snowman (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Those who wrote that obviously meant material as in original text written by someone, not that we should go and hunt down extremely obscure info on who translated what back in the 19th century. But as I said, please add such info if you find it. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
As I stated earlier, it looks to me that Oliver's work of translation is not attributed nor sourced directly from his book in English of Dubois' French book. Snowman (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
And as I stated earlier, feel free to add it. No one is holding you back. FunkMonk (talk) 00:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
My role with this is as a reviewer. Snowman (talk) 00:13, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Your role is to give advise that is relevant to the FAC criteria. I'm sorry to say that it doesn't concern this FAC that you just discovered that Walter Rothschild quoted a translation from someone else over a hundred years ago, a fact which has not been mentioned in any of the relevant literature since. It is a mere curiosity that you can add if it so pleases you. It'll take as long as it does for you to reply to this comment. FunkMonk (talk) 00:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Attribution is important on the Wiki. It would be quite easy to attribute Dobois' translated work to Oliver. This is the Dubois' 1674 book, and this is Oliver's 1897 book, and both should open on the section of the books about birds. However, I have not looked into the translations of the other quotes, and you seem to be more familiar with those than me. Snowman (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
You personally discovered Rothschild quoted Oliver. It is your own pet peeve, not mine. I couldn't care less, and the quotes are already PD and cited to a prominent source, however you turn it. So do it yourself, or forget it. I've done my part. And I repeat: The point of attribution on Misplaced Pages is for verification, not credit. The article cites a source which includes this text, but it doesn't matter where it appeared first. It is already verifiable, Understand? FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that your comment could have been phrased differently. Anybody can see the long translated quotes in the article that are based on Dubois 1674 French book alongside Oliver's 1897 English translation and see similarities. I note that Rothchild's book was published in 1907. The issue is about attribution (including attribution for translated works), not verification. Snowman (talk) 01:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Again, it would had taken you less time to add the citations than writing the above comments. And no, I'm still not convinced it is an FA criterion to clarify whoever published translations of a couple of PD sentences first. But well, if a second opinion could be provided, who knows? FunkMonk (talk) 01:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I have attributed one of the quotations by Dubois and translated by Oliver. I provided the sources above, so anyone could have done it quite quickly. Snowman (talk) 11:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool! And on that note, nice you found that Dubois had an article. I've been looking for that. FunkMonk (talk) 20:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Pigs are mentioned under extinction. As for goats, I'm not sure how they would affect this bird. Many animals were introduced at the time, but their impact was not the same, of course. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The goat Wiki article says that goats remove native scrub, trees, and other vegetation. This probably is not as harmful as pigs, if pigs sniff out and eat eggs in ground nests. Snowman (talk) 23:21, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Yeah. In any case, no sources mention interaction between goats and the solitaire. FunkMonk (talk) 23:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Because it is seasonal and systematic, not random. FunkMonk (talk) 12:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I presume you imply; "seasonal weight fluctuations". Snowman (talk) 13:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure if either is less jargony than the other. Is what you propose more frequently used in the literature? If not, I'd prefer to use what the relevant sources say. FunkMonk (talk) 13:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
The article currently has the jargon and then the explanation of the jargon, which seems to have an element of repetition. Snowman (talk) 15:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how explanation is repetition. For more info on these cycles, see footnote 47 on page 285 of Cheke Hume 2008. FunkMonk (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
On what page do Cheke and Hume point this out? And how is explanation repetition? FunkMonk (talk) 15:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I have thought about many of your replies, and to me it seems that you sometimes have some sort of tunnel vision that makes is difficult for you to see reviewers point of view or you are reluctant to investigate issues raised by reviewers. I provide this feedback with the hope that it will help you to have a little more insight into your stance, which you might like to think about. Your comment above seems to be a reply to this thread and the thread below, so to me it seems that you have made this page slightly more complicated and difficult to follow by commenting on two topics of discussion in one reply. Snowman (talk) 19:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Have you noticed that I generally implement the suggestions of other reviewers much faster than yours? That is for reasons I have already outlined. You make some good, relevant suggestions, but bury them in dozens of puzzling suggestions that are not based on FA criteria, you never give those up in spite of counter arguments, and this makes people frustrated and confused. I know it isn't just me, I've seen other reviews you've made that had the same problem, for example this one, where you completely misinterpret the GA criteria (is Abuwtiyuw comprehensive?), and basically mislead the reviewer into failing a GA, without allowing the nominator to address the issues raised prior to this. And it was subsequently listed in spite of your protests, because they were ill-founded. You really need to focus on which suggestions are actually relevant to FA criteria, and then make other suggestions optional. FunkMonk (talk) 04:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The issues I raise are always within the scope of FA criteria unless I add that it might not be relevant to the FA criteria. I always raise issues that I think are likely to lead to an improvement in the article. I also attempt to write good edit summaries to show new Wikipedians what is happening and I generally try to help other Wikipedians at all levels. I raise issues in FA discussions and I do not always know where the discussion will go and this has lead to some fascinating additions to articles to fix omissions relevant to FA status. I have commented on many FA articles and I generally find that creative erudite editors tend to run with ideas once I have raised a topic. On-the-other-hand, a minority of the issues that I raise are due to my lack of understanding of something, that I did not follow in the article, and do not lead to an improvement. I think that I tend to think of the "big picture" and I suspect that I may have insights that many Wikipedians do not have, because of my science background. I often check sources where I think something sounds odd. Nominators cannot choose reviewers. Snowman (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I understand your position, all I'm saying is that you must accept if every minor demand isn't met, because some issues are simply subjective. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree that there is no perfect article and there are many correct ways of writing about the same information. However, a Wiki article may have lots of things that are wrong, badly written, or not good enough. I note your strategy of taking up other reviewers suggestions much faster than mine, and I am wondering if this is subjective or not. Snowman (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course my decision is subjective. But so are yours. Either way, I think we've gotten pretty far in covering your demands. And I implement all your suggestions as fast as those of any others when I find them usable. Just not when they seem arbitrary. FunkMonk (talk) 00:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I can not translate Dubois's original books from French to English; however, Check & Hume point out that there are errors in the translation of Dubois's book by Caption Oliver. I think that a more accurate translation of Dubois's quote is; "These birds are so-called solitaires because they are always found alone. They are as big as a goose and their plumage is white, with black tips to the wings and the tail. The tail has some feathers resembling an ostrich. They have a long neck and a beak shaped like the wood-cocks but larger. Their legs and feet are like those of the turkey. This bird is caught by running after it, as it flies very little. It is the best game of the island." See Check & Hume and Dodo-solitaire. I think that the errors in Oliver's translation should not be transcribed into the quotes in the Wiki article. The changes would relate to its flight and the description of its legs with a likeness to a Turkey or Turkey-chick so I think that these are rather important. Snowman (talk) 15:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
It is explained on page 71 of Cheke and Hume 2004. It is very easy to find by searching for Turkey. It might not be the first time Turkey features on the page, but it is easy to find even without being spoon fed the page number. Snowman (talk) 19:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Please cut out the "spoonfeeding" prattle, it is leading nowhere. I fail to see what their comment has to do with the turkey issue, and they only mention a single error, and one ambiguity: "The last sentence is wrongly translated, the original reads “cet oiseau se prend à la course”, meaning “this bird is taken by running after it” (as in hare-coursing). Dubois’ “bécasse” has always been translated into English as woodcock (Scolopax rusticola), but oystercatcher (“becasse de mer”, Haematopus ostralegus) is an equally probable gloss; both birds have long straight bills, but the oystercatcher’s is more robust." Therefore, I will add Cheke and Hume's interpretation in the article, not in the translation. We should not meddle with actual sourced content, only comment on it and put it in proper context. FunkMonk (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that an FA article can not have a quote that is an incorrect English translation of the French original. I think that this could have been sorted out earlier, but for your strategy of taking up other reviewers suggestions much faster than mine. Snowman (talk) 20:36, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Remember, Misplaced Pages is about verification, not truth. The quotes are "verified" and part of the established literature, but a home made translation is not. Therefore, explaining the quotes and their inaccuracies can only be done based on already published material, we are not allowed to interpret them ourselves. That's wikipedia policy. Things would be different if we were writing a book, original research would be allowed. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
There may be a less concrete and more creative way of looking for a solution to this problem, and at the same time keeping to the principals of the Wiki. It is verified truth that Oliver's translation of the quote contains errors. Oliver's did his translation over 200 years after the original French was published, so I am wondering how important Oliver's translations is or is not. I do not see why the Wiki article needs an incorrect translation and clearly parts of Oliver's translation have been doubted in the literature. I might be wrong, but I do not see anything wrong with a Wikipedian translating the old French text and providing an English version of the quote hopefully without errors. Wikipedians can extract information from all sorts of sources,. I understand that the Wiki does have a translating service, so I would much rather ask a person who can translate French to English about language issues. I have started en-Wiki articles by translating foreign language versions, so language translation by Wikipedians is not out-of-bounds here. I note your strategy of taking up other reviewers suggestions much faster than mine, so I plan to see if I can find out more about language translation on the Wiki myself, when I have some time perhaps within a few days. Snowman (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The thing is, the translation only has one single downright error (caught by running instead of the bird itself running). The other issue (identity of "becasse") is a matter of interpretation, so there's not really anything we can change it to, other than noting it in the article text. FunkMonk (talk) 00:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No. There is also different interpretation leading to "Turkey" or "Turkey-chick". Snowman (talk) 00:44, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Only if it is described as a problem in secondary sources. This is Misplaced Pages, not our original research book. You rightly removed my caption that said the white Solitaire image was based on Frohawk's Rodrigues Solitaire. It clearly is, but no sources actually state this, so it does not belong here, no matter how obvious it is. Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. FunkMonk (talk) 07:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
There are apparently two translation errors in the Oliver translation of the Dubois quote, which I think is a problem for FA status. There are a number of Wikipedians, who have volunteered for translation work. Of course, I am interested in Misplaced Pages:Translators_available#French-to-English. I have User TrailerTrack, a native French speakers, about the Dobois quote. Snowman (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be ignoring the important points about verification. Anyhow, be sure to make the translator read this discussion so he can realise what the problem is. FunkMonk (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, Wikipedians can extract and rearrange information from all sorts of reliable sources, even if it is in a different language. Wikipedians can even extract information from maps, and say that town A is y miles from town B, the in-line source being a map. Snowman (talk) 15:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, since you've already made the arrangement, it'll be interesting to see what we get from it. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Update: I have left a message with User TrailerTrack to say that translation assistance in no longer needed. Snowman (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, no sources mention this, so how could we? FunkMonk (talk) 02:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
If there are too many gaps in the published literature about a topic, then it might not be possible to write an FA article about the topic. Snowman (talk) 10:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
There are no gaps, since practically all literature with original research that exists on the subject is cited here. Since when did a FAC have to take hypothetical future literature into account? This is another one of those non-FAC demands that you need to give up if they cannot be met. And to show how random and unpredictable such future studies are, a little anecdote: I asked the lead author of this paper if there would be a future study on a related species. He replied that they only did that study because they happened to have some bones lying around in the lab by chance, and when they requested bones of the related species, they were turned down. So they have no plans on examining the related species. FunkMonk (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
See 3c at Misplaced Pages:Featured topic criteria. I wonder if the article is ineligible for featured article status owing gaps in knowledge leading to inherent instability of the article. Snowman (talk) 19:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Lol, are you serious? Instability!? There are only three or four people who conduct research on this bird today (this original research is published with about ten year intervals), and they all agree, how can it be "unstable"? As I said earlier, you have some good suggestions, and then you have some very dubious ones, could you please separate the ones rooted in actual FA criteria from the made up ones? FunkMonk (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The external link to the video "The Dodo – The merging of myth and reality" has been a dead link on my system for several days. If this is a dead link, then should it be removed or fixed? Has the url changed? Snowman (talk) 10:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm, that's annoying. Perhaps it is only temporary? If it doesn't work, it is useless. I'll wait and see what happens. FunkMonk (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Provisional impression (1). I think that this article has some interesting and well presented parts. It also has some parts that are complicated, which I struggle to follow, partly because there are so many facets, names, and drawings in the history of its taxonomy. I am finding this article difficult to evaluate. For me, slightly different versions of text translated from foreign language sources tend to add the the difficulty in evaluating this article. I wonder if anything can be done to make the article easier to read, perhaps by copy-editing the language, re-organising subsections, or adding extra subheadings. If all the images are kept in the article, I wonder if double images would help organise the two ibis photographs and also the two similar Dodo paintings. Is my provisional impression flawed, because of my limitations and idiosyncrasies, or do others share any aspects of my point of view? Snowman (talk) 11:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
The thing is, the taxonomic history of the bird is complicated and hard to follow, there's not much we can do about that. As the 2006 book you linked to demonstrates, even modern, professional writers get it utterly wrong. If most details are to be presented and not just glossed over, it inevitably gets convoluted and complex. And even then, there are many details I've left out, to make it even more user friendly. As for old quotes, when the majority of sources use the ones we have here, I think it would be inappropriate to tamper wit them. But if you find more readable, PD translations, sure, be my quest and replace them. And personally, I don't like "double images". The article has plenty of room, no need to stack the images so close to each other. FunkMonk (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I've now broken the taxonomy section up a bit more. Any thoughts? FunkMonk (talk) 20:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Provisional impression (2). My second provisional impression is that the article has improved. I think that the article is still rather difficult to read, but I am unsure how high the "easy to read" bar is set at in the FA criteria. Nevertheless, I think that readability and article organisation could be improved. I think that progress has been rather slow, and I have yet to raise the possible omission of the scientific culture of the 18th and 19th centuries (when new species were created on little evidence by today's standards) and also the possible omission of the apparent rivalry between some of the personalities involved with the early writings on Dodos. The relevance of both these possible omissions were explained by expert J Hume in his video interview, which is listed in the "External links" section (now a dead link on my system). I think that including these omissions would make the story somewhat more understandable and complete. One of the quotes in the article apparently contains two translation errors and I am hoping that a bilingual French and English speaker will help out. There seems to be a lot of gaps in the science, many controversies, and many inconsistencies in the literature, which all increase the complexity of writing and reviewing this article, which must be based on Wiki principals. Gaps in modern science include missing details of the evolution of this ibis and a heading on evolution is notably absent from the article on this island species. Perhaps, in few years time the evolution of the ibises will have been illuminated by DNA research and other scientific advances will add more understanding to the science and story of this ibis. Snowman (talk) 15:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
These are some of your more interesting suggestions, why have you not mentioned them before? I'll see what I can do. As for the rivalry, Hume overstates it a bit in that interview (which I added), since Alfred Newton neither made the connection between the paintings and the solitaire himself, or coined any of the scientific names of the species. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Also, could you list what other unaddressed suggestions you have here? Then we can get this over with. FunkMonk (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea what might turn up. Snowman (talk) 10:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I've now added something about the 1869 Newton paper, which is actually a key event in this history, which I had wrongly summarised, instead of underlined. Some of the info about the paintings has also been rearranged and rewritten, and may need copyediting. As for evolution, the only info I could find was what can be seen in the beginning of the behaviour section. Once genetic studies are published, it will be easy to incorporate. It appears to me that all your concerns have been addressed, apart form the "fat cycle" issue, the faunal list (which was not a problem in four other FACs), and the translation issue. FunkMonk (talk) 22:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Despite recent changes, I think that taken as a whole the article is unnecessarily difficult to read in places, but I say this without knowing exactly how high the "easy to read" bar is set at for Wiki articles. To me the introduction seems to be jumpy, partly because it is not in a logical chronological sequence. Perhaps, the general organisation and headings of the article could be improved as well. What about separating the red herring of the white dodo as much as possible into its own sections in the main text of the article and it own paragraph in the introduction? Snowman (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
See, my concern is quite the opposite, that we are dumbing down the article too much. I think we're pretty close to a compromise between both extremes. And there is no sense in separating the dodo stuff from the taxonomy section, more than what the article already does. There's a reason why all sources treat it this way. Misplaced Pages should reflect the published sources, not make up its own structure and chronology, if it isn't obviously and objectively an improvement. And it certainly isn't in this case. As for the intro, what is the problem exactly? FunkMonk (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I am not suggesting that the Wiki article makes up its own chronology. The Wiki article can rearrange data from reliable sources, so the Wiki article need not follow the structure of publications. I am concerned that the introduction will put off readers. It what way do all sources present it? Snowman (talk) 11:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
It seems most people are not really that confused by it. And again, the taxonomic history is confusing, and most of the literature is confusing, so I'm more concerned about dumbing it down to an extend where it doesn't really reflect the published sources anymore. FunkMonk (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Split up, how does it look? FunkMonk (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Now fixed. Are there any more like that? Snowman (talk) 10:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Provisional impression (3). I suggest that article is not ready for FA status at this juncture. As far as I can see, I have been the only viewer checking sources and I have found a number of errors and ambiguities after checking a few sources that interest me and reading other works. Most of these issues have been corrected by my own edits or resulting from discussion (above), while some are the topic of continuing discussion; nevertheless, I would recommend that sources are checked more systematically, because I think that it is likely that errors and ambiguities remain in the article. A theme on artwork (including clutter) started early in the discussion, but has not been resolved, as far as I am aware. I think that the article is difficult to read compounded by long sections and images that are put in illogical places. I think that this island species with poor flying ability needs a better account of its evolution. As far as I am aware, the introduction includes a misleading line failing to acknowledge an old classification of the Dididae as a family within the order of pigeons. One of the quotes has translation errors arising when it was translated from French to English by Oliver. Progress has been made, but it has been slow. The nominator has replied with "Lol, are you serious? ", "Have you noticed that I generally implement the suggestions of other reviewers much faster than yours?", and asks lots of questions. I am pessimistic about further progress. Snowman (talk) 08:06, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
1- You've consistently failed to show what the errors you keep mentioning are. Until you do, that argument can be disregarded. 2- The "theme on artwork" and "long sections" is subjective, and your opinion against mine. Therefore, your suggestion is rejected. 3 - Raphinae IS dididae. It is a junior synonym, which was used by some authors simultaneously with others using raphine, simply because they liked the name "Didus" more, but they were well aware it referred to the same thing. 4 - The translation issue should not be changed by making original research interpretations. Request for a new translation is rejected, but Strickland's is implemented instead, to get rid of the word "chick". You have not mentioned other errors. 5 - I say "are you serious" and "I dont want to implement your suggestion" when they are downright baffling, and not an objective improvement. That is my right, as the writer of the article. What you need to do is realise that unless one of your suggestions is straight from the FA criteria, or is mentioned by other reviewers, and is as arbitrary as many of your suggestions, I can take it or leave it as I please. What you like has no bearing on FA status, unless it is actually rooted in FA critera. You need to let such issues go. FunkMonk (talk) 13:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Provisional impression (4). I suggest that article is not ready for FA status at this juncture. I think that all significant problems should be sorted out prior to promotion to FA status. As far as I am aware, I am the only reviewer to have done spot checking on extraction of information from sources. I think that it would be particularly unwise to give this article recognition with FA status, because I think that it contains unbalanced criticism of a living author. Also, I think that the complexity of the date of the origin of the volcanic island of Rogregues is not adequately explained or sourced, and I note that the traditional age for the island of about 1.5 million years does not feature in the Wiki article. There have been some recent improvements in the article notably in the selection and logical positioning of images. Also, there has been the correction of an error on the old classification of the Dodo-like birds with an associated fix in the introduction. Nevertheless, I am becoming more pessimistic about promotion to FA status, because of slow progress with significant issues, and I am beginning to think that the article may not reach FA status at this nomination. I note that on 12 March 2012 the article will have been an FA candidate for two calendar months. Time marches. Snowman (talk) 13:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
All issues that are relevant to the FAC criteria have long been solved. What remains is that Snowman realises his own personal preferences, as well as suggestions based on misconceptions and outdated literature, have no relevance to the FA process. Everything I add or comply with from this point is simply to be nice to Snowman. I think we need some fresh eyes to look at the article, because this review is going way out of hand. Snowman should not elevate his personal opinions to FAC criterion status. FunkMonk (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I suggest that article is not ready for promotion to FA status at this juncture. The article has been an FA candidate for two colander months exactly today. Numerous improvements have been made, but progress seems to have been rather slow at times. I would not expect any FA to be a perfect article, nevertheless, I think that this article retains significant problems that would need amendments prior to promotion to FA status. My review is not complete, because I think more sources need checking; nevertheless, it is time for me to move on. Snowman (talk) 10:32, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
You're getting the cause and effect wrong. The only reason this has taken so long is because you keep making silly proposals that are not based on FA criteria, but on your own eccentric ideas and misconceptions. If you want to add outdated info as fact, as well as original research, it won't happen on my guard, and hopefully not on anyone else's. Many of your suggestions (that were based on your own misunderstanding of the sources, and apparent skimming of the article) were hardly even worthy of comment, yet I knew from experience that you would never give them up, so I addressed them just to keep this going, and to be nice. You complain about length, but I've demonstrated earlier that the longest spanning of my FACs are the ones you've contributed to, funnily enough, so just perhaps you might be the problem yourself. The "issues" you mention are extremely minor, subjective quibbles, which have squat to do with FA criteria. FunkMonk (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Review by Casliber

Right, I will read through now and jot queries below: Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:06, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it might be simpler and less misleading to remove "of the Réunion Solitaire" from the caption of the taxobox illustration (?)
Hi, I explained this to Snowman above, not sure if you saw it, or what you think about the explanation. Schlegel did now know of an ibis, he classified the bird as a species of Dodo in the same article the sketch is from, so retroactively labellingit as the ibis would be kind of misleading, wouldn't it? But I've circumvented the problem by saying "the bird" instead of either. FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
The idea that the solitaire and the subfossil ibis are identical has only met limited dissent - "met with limited dissent"
Fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I think I agree that "seasonal fat-cycles" needs some extra linking, explaining or something in the lead. I will think about this one and see what I can come up with.
I have not found any usable articles, so I'm not sure what I should link to. Any ideas? FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I wonder whether the royal menagerie is the one listed at Subsidiary structures of the Palace of Versailles and hence deserviing of a link to the appropriate section.
Possibly, I'll link it. FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Contemporary accounts described the "Solitaire" as having white and grey plumage merging into yellow, black wing tips and tail feathers - I think I'd say "Reunion Ibis" here, or just "the species".
Alright, I think "species" would be the least misleading. FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I am musing on this, but I think it might go better if we used its current name in all but a historical bit - e.g. I'd use the current name in Behaviour and ecology and elsewhere, and only use "Solitaire" when explaining why that term was used.
The problem is, that most of the behaviour and description section also refers to the historical accounts. But "this species" and "this bird" may be a good alternative. I'll add that. FunkMonk (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Overall, looks alright otherwise, but the name issue can be done a bit clearer I think. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC) I think I am happy now with how the name(s) are used in the article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

One final quibble - in the last para, you have two statements on when the species vanished - in the first and last sentences. It would be good to somehow amalgamate them as it reads a bit funnily otherwise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Rephrased. FunkMonk (talk) 22:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Not quite what I had in mind but I agree it does read better, so ok. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

So to summarise, I cautiously support on comprehensiveness and prose at this point. I am not seeing any deal-breakers in prose left, I think the use of direct quotes in quote boxes makes the subject alot more engaging to the general reader and I strongly suspect the sources have been investigated thoroughly. I feel the use of "solitaire" has been confined to the area of hte text it is germane to and hopefully is less confusing for the general reader. As a minor formatting issue, it is good to align all refs - so all reference titles should either be in Title Case or sentence case (just choose one and align - given there are German ones Title Case might be better...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, as for case, I was under the impression that books were title case, and scientific articles were not? FunkMonk (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The feedback I've got from Sasata previously is that they should all be the same...so I have generally aligned them as title case. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Sasata does it as FunkMonk suggests- see his latest FA. J Milburn (talk) 08:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
What's important is that they are consistent, not necessarily the same. Like J Milburn points out, I use title case for books and sentence case for articles (but title case for the name of the journal, and sentence case for chapters in books) because that seems logical to me. There shouldn't be any problem with someone using title case for both books and journal article titles either. Sasata (talk) 02:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Aha. Does what I've used here seem sensible to you? FunkMonk (talk) 02:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it's largely sensible. If I were nitpicking the formatting, I might suggest the following trivialities...
  • the "a" after the colon in ref#4 should be capitalized
  • the "official title" (i.e. the Worldcat entry obtained from clicking the isbn) of ref#7 doesn't include ": A synopsis on the fossil Rallidae" and could be left out without hindering anyone's ability to find this source
  • ref#9 is available online here, so one might include a courtesy link; also, if this proceedings publication has an editor(s), their names are typically included in the citation
  • if the translated title is included in ref#14, for consistency it should be included with the other foreign language titles as well
  • I think the "To" in the title of ref#16 should be lower case (there's no set rule about this; see the options at Title_case#Headings_and_publication_titles and be consistent throughout)
… but I'm not, so feel free to ignore :-) Sasata (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Heheh, cool, I'll work on it anyway. As for the "fossil Rallidae" title, that's the name of the relevant chapter within the book, but maybe the page numbers are enough? FunkMonk (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Ah, in that case give the chapter title in the "chapter=" parameter of cite book. Sasata (talk) 03:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I've implemented the above suggestions, apart form the link, which I couldn't get to work for some reason... FunkMonk (talk) 08:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I've reformatted the reference a smidge and added a link to where the PDF can be downloaded, which will be useful for anyone chasing up the reference- linking straight to the (very large) PDF is not ideal. J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Thumbs up! FunkMonk (talk) 04:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Actually, I think that relatively few of the sources have been checked for accurate extraction of content to the article. I have checked a few sources and found several errors where the article said something different to the in-line reference. The topic is complex and errors in the article are still turning up from time to time. Snowman (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Then tell us what those errors are, instead of this continuous, useless hand-waving. FunkMonk (talk) 00:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

Leaving aside the excessive use of quote boxes I've mentioned above, I'm inclined to promote this as it stands given the time it's been open and the evident support. I note some recent concerns from Snowman re. the lead, but having gone through it myself I see no readability issues, just scope for a small tweak/trim that I've already executed. If there is anything else that really needs to be resolved before promotion, pls speak now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

  • There are French to English translation issues for the quote from the Debois book. I think that it is preferable that all issues are sorted out prior to awarding FA status. Snowman (talk) 15:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
There is a single inconsistency, which is "turkey chick" versus just "turkey". That can't be a serious issue, and no sources mention it as a problem. Misplaced Pages articles are not supposed to be more accurate than the sources, they are supposed to reflect the sources. Verifiability, not truth. FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
It is translated as "turkey" by some. The quote actually contains two translation problems, and it need not show any translation problems. The Oliver translation contains two problems, and there is no need to re-iterate errors of translation of the original Dubois work. Surely the quote should be what Dubois had written translated without errors. Snowman (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
So what are the other issues? Two issues are dealt with by paraphrasing a source that deals with them. We shouldn't change historically significant translations, since they have had quite an impact on the understanding of the bird. If people thought it had a woodcock's beak for 150 years because of an unclear translation, this needs to be mentioned in the text. But we sure shouldn't change the translation itself. That is simply not what we're supposed to do here, no original research. FunkMonk (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The original book was published hundreds of years before the translation. The original book is more significant that its translation, especially if the aim of using quotes is to paint a picture of contemporaneous observations of the bird in life. Snowman (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
No, because the great, great majority of literature containing studies and interpretations about the bird are in English, and largely based on these translations. The translations themselves have had an impact on how the bird was subsequently understood and classified. Some authors questioned the accuracy of the translations, and even the original text itself, but that should be mentioned in the article, we should not "correct" an important historical text and retroactively change its context. FunkMonk (talk) 21:38, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
If you are correct about the historical importance of Oliver's translation with its mistakes, then perhaps it should be shown alongside a correct translation of the Dubois's important observations; however, I suspect that you are exaggerating the importance of Oliver's translation made hundreds of years after the Dubois's original French version and I think that only a correct translation need be quoted in the article. I have no doubt that Dubois' observations should be translated correctly when quoted. Snowman (talk)
I'm stressing the importance of his mistakes and inaccuracies, which had an impact on how the beak and flight ability was perceived. These are already dealt with in the text. so we don't need two separate translations. What you're proposing is bordering on original research. It is besides the point whether we can crate a more "correct" translation, because what we should do is reflect the sources, not make our own judgements. And again, if we wanted to be more correct than the sources, we should point out that Frohawk's second image is based on a Rodrigues Solitaire. But we shouldn't, know why? Because it's original research, whether it's true or not it irrelevant, as this info cannot be found in the sources. I recommend you read up on "verifiability, not truth", before commenting further on this issue. FunkMonk (talk) 19:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I would welcome the opinion of a bilingual French and English speaking person. As far as I am aware, translations are permitted on the Wiki (the foreign language being the source). Snowman (talk) 20:38, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
It is irrelevant. Dubois' original French text is open to interpretation, and this is what the sources say. "Bécasse" can mean more than one kind of bird. It doesn't matter if you get a professor in French to do a new translation, the word will remain ambiguous forever, because we will never know what Dubois actually meant. The rest of the issues, "turkey chick" and "betakes itself to running" are minor issues, the former is ambiguous, and the latter is explained in the text. Translations are allowed, yes, but interpretations are not. Some words are just too ambiguous and archaic for a direct, modern translation here, and any choice will be subjective. You really need to let this go, I will not implement original research. FunkMonk (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Strickland had the quote translated in 1848 and he uses "turkey" and not "turkey-chick"; see page 59 of his book. What exactly is the historical importance of Oliver's 1897 translation with errors? Snowman (talk) 11:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Then we use Strickland's translation. But no original research. FunkMonk (talk) 13:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
There were two work-arounds that I could think of without asking a translator Wikipedian, and the use of Strickland's translation (or the translation in Strickland's book) is the easiest. I have looked for acknowledgement of translation work in Strickland's book, but I could not find anything. Please note that Check and Hume acknowledge Dutch translation work at the end of at least one of their works, but I recall thinking that it is not relevant for this article. Snowman (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I think the chosen solution is better within the realm of a Misplaced Pages article. If it had been a book, we could add as much original speculation as we wanted, and a new "improved" translation would be in order. But Misplaced Pages is not the place for such. 14:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Why leave aside the excessive use of quote boxes? Surely, this is the time to deal with quote boxes and page clutter. Also, I have suggested using double images to tidy up the clutter a little. Page clutter is an unresolved issue mentioned by three reviewers. Snowman (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Because the boxes have not been a problem in four previous FACs. Why now? And where is this clutter exactly? As for double images, how would that minimise clutter? I see no white space. FunkMonk (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
It is an issue here, and i think that it should be resolved prior to awarding FA status. I recall some agreement that there were too many quotes in a previous FA and some were removed. Snowman (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
You're mixing up the issues. The amount of quotes is unrelated to the issue of boxes. No one has complained about the amount of quotes here. And you have not complained about the boxes yourself, as far as I recall. FunkMonk (talk) 21:40, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
As far as I see it, there are two issues. There are many quote boxes and page clutter. Quote boxes and images both contribute to page clutter. Snowman (talk) 11:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Clutter in which way? FunkMonk (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The art work could be improved. In this sense I am using "art work" to indicate the layout of the article and position and quantity of quotes and images. Snowman (talk) 13:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it's just fine. I've seen horrible layout in recent FAs, and no one has pointed out any specific places where "clutter" occurs, or what this "clutter" even is. FunkMonk (talk) 19:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Do you have difficulty in understanding reviewers? I think that it is untidy that there are two images of extant ibises, which both are to illustrate close living relatives. I think that these could be combined in a double image. Snowman (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
See, this is where we step from the realm of FAC criteria into the realm of subjective opinion and taste: I disagree, and that's just how it is. FunkMonk (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Please note that three reviewers have mentioned "clutter". Snowman (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Please note that Sandy's specific issue was fixed ages ago, and that no one else has pointed out anything specific. And you only started talking about it after the delegate commented, so it doesn't seem to have been much of a concern for you until then. FunkMonk (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I suggested using double images, solely because I thought using one or two would improve presentation. Snowman (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
But that has absolutely nothing to do with clutter. If we had a lack of room, and a lot of white space, I could understand you. But as is, I really don't see the problem. They are the only images that would be appropriate under the biology sections. FunkMonk (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Although, I am not sure where the "easy-to-read" bar is set, I think that improving the readability of the main text of the article is potentially actionable. There are some long complicated sections. Perhaps, article organisation could be improved. Snowman (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, you're the only one who keeps pushing the issue, so please present some suggestions. FunkMonk (talk) 21:40, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Of course, I aim to drive improvements when I see problems. Do you have any idea where the article could be difficult to read? Snowman (talk) 11:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
No, that's why I'm asking you. FunkMonk (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure where to pitch my reply, so can you say where you think there could be parts that are difficult to read? Snowman (talk) 13:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
But I'm not the one still claiming there are such parts left, so why should I? FunkMonk (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
In this earlier edit you stated; "The thing is, the taxonomic history of the bird is complicated and hard to follow, there's not much we can do about that." and "... it inevitably gets convoluted and complex." I thought that you might have something to share about convoluted and complex parts of the text. Snowman (talk) 19:38, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I said the taxonomic history is complex. If the subject is complex, the article has to be complex. It can not be much more watered down than it already is. FunkMonk (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
To which parts of the article were you referring as being convoluted or complex. Surely, these parts might be difficult for readers to understand? Snowman (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
If the taxonomic history of the animal is complex, I'm pretty sure the text that deals with this is/has to be complex too. FunkMonk (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that this complex topic should be supported by clearer page organisation. Snowman (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
And now we're discussing in circles again. If you think something specific is in need of reorganisation, point out where this is. And no, this is not "spoon-feeding", you're simply being vaguer than mist. FunkMonk (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I generally find that nominators have a creative spark and can run with ideas. This issue is not resolved. Snowman (talk) 22:41, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
It is not "resolved" because you refuse to give constructive criticism instead of vague hand-waving. If you think something is unclear, you need to show wjere it is, or else your request will be ignored. FunkMonk (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I do not see the point of the article showing four images of the white dodo, because the ibis is not a white dodo and some of the images of the white dodo are rather similar and apparently all are derived from the same painting. I think that too many images of the white dodo give the wrong emphasis about the ibis. Snowman (talk) 11:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
We've already discussed this, and I've explained it several times above. FunkMonk (talk) 12:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, I'll explain it in detail, for the benefit of the audience. The Withoos and Holsteyn images are essential because they, along with Bontekoe's writings, is what created the white Réunion Dodo myth in the first place. Frohawk's white Dodo image is essential in showing how accepted the idea was in the early 20th century and onwards. The second Frohawk image is important in showing that, after all, there was some doubt about whether it was a correct identity or not for this bird. Last Dodo image, the one all recent literature refers to when explaining the older images, is essential for that very reason. FunkMonk (talk) 13:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Why are there two images of a white dodo in the "recent classification" section? I think that these images should not be shown in this section, because they are nothing to do with modern classification. I think that these misplaced images show poor article organisation. Snowman (talk) 13:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Or rather that you haven't read the accompanying text. The Savery image is discussed at length in that section, so removing it from there would not make sense. As for Frohawk's image, it is in the beginning of the section, which starts with the fact that only few doubted its validity. I will add that it was the orthodox view. FunkMonk (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I do not see why the white dodo should be discussed in detail nor illustrated in a section with a title of "Recent classification". I think that the headings are confusing and the sections are too long. Snowman (talk) 19:21, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Uh, well, because it is part of the reason why the Dodo identity can be discounted. The recent (2000s) discovery of that painting shows the Withoos and Holsteyn images were not based on a live bird from Réunion. Therefore it belongs under recent classification. Are you in all seriousness suggesting that an image (and attached interpretations) that was unknown until a few years ago should be discussed under "early classification"? Again, it makes it seem as if you haven't even read the section to begin with. FunkMonk (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I think that how the classification of the white dodo lost its credibility and became a myth should be discussed predominantly with the old classification. I think that the sections are too long and a lot could be done to improve page organisation. Snowman (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. Again, many of your suggestions are not rooted in actual FA criteria, but in your own personal tastes. If I disregard such suggestions, that's just how it is, and you have to accept it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, readability, page organisation, and all aspects of presentation (including art-work) are all relevant in the FA criterion. Snowman (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Of course. But many of your exact suggestions are not part of the criteria. They're your personal, arbitrary preferences. You think something is too long. You think something should be a "double image". These are optional features that are not required. If I agree, I will implement it. If not, I won't. It's rather simple. FunkMonk (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
This issue is not resolved. Snowman (talk) 22:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it is resolved. The removal of historically relevant images has been rejected by me, and the text is fine where it is. Case closed. FunkMonk (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Resolved, the article now has a better range of images. Snowman (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Problem with introduction. This book called Island Life by Alfred Russel Wallace says about the Reunion Solitaire; "These birds constitute a distinct family, Dididae, allied to the pigeons but very isolated." The introduction to the article says; "... the Réunion Solitaire was long believed to be a member of the pigeon subfamily Raphinae.", but the famous book appears to show that the article introduction is an oversimplification, because the introduction disregards an old classification of the Reunion Solitaire classified as being in the family Dididae, presumably in the order Columbiformes (pigeons), but not in the family Columbidae. Snowman (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Lol, are you serious? You constantly complain about long, complex taxonomy, and now you want to add even more? What's the point? "Dididae" itself is an obsolete name, a junior synonym of raphinae. It is not "omitted", it is simply not needed, as the senior synonym raphinae is already mentioned. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Island Life is a serious book and its author Alfred Russel Wallace was a serious scientist and I think that he was serious when he stated that the Solitaire (of Bourbon) was in the family Dididae in 1881. This is an old classification and Wallace explains that in his time Dididae was placed as a family (presumably in the order of Columbiformes), which is not the same as the modern position of the sub-family Raphinae in the family of Columbidae. I suggest that this part of the introduction is corrected by removing the error. This will shorten the text on taxonomy in the introduction and made the introduction more realistic and more readable. I note that you started your comment with "Lol, are you serious?", so I have become pessimistic about more progress. Snowman (talk) 08:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Yet again, they are synonyms. But I sense you will on beat this dead horse for the rest of our life, so I'll change it, just to make our lives easier. And no, it wasn't Wallace who proposed this classification, it was classified as such the moment it was considered a Dodo. FunkMonk (talk) 13:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I do not know how anyone could think that I said the it was Wallaces idea. I just said that Wallace stated it. I think that the article could not ignore Wallace's early account of taxonomy. Wallace wrote about Dididae as a pigeon family, which is entirely different to what the article said about a synonym being a pigeon sub-family. Clearly,the taxonomic ranking has been altered. Snowman (talk) 19:46, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
That is because columbidae is regarded as a family, don't know when that view became accepted. In any case, I've now added the outdated taxonomy expressed by Rothschild. FunkMonk (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I would recommend more spot checking of sources. The topic is complex and errors are still turning up. As far as I am aware, I have been the only reviewer to spot check sources, but I have not spot checked many. I have corrected a few parts of the article by checking a few sources. Also, I have started discussions on problem issues (above) and there turned out to be an error where the article did not reflect the in-line reference accurately or was not consistent with a different reliable source. I am somewhat pessimistic about progress here, because of the slow progress and because of the large volume of checking that would need doing. Snowman (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Explain. What errors? In any case, be my guest and spot check the hell out of it. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
A error I recently found was that the old Dididae taxonomy was wrong in the article (now fixed). Snowman (talk) 19:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it is. But we don't know if it will stay that way. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I commented on this dead link above on 18 February 2013. I think that it is about time it is removed. Snowman (talk) 08:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Done. No big deal. FunkMonk (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Resolved. Snowman (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
No, a 1885 book is not appropriate to explain modern theories. And there is no evolution section because nothing is known about its evolution apart form what is already in the text. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Wallace was rather good on the topic of evolution. I think that he explained island speciation rather well with reference to what he called the Solitaire (of Bourbon). Snowman (talk) 08:16, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
But how can it be relevant when explaining the evolution of the ibis, which he was not even aware existed? At most, it can be mentioned under early interpretations. FunkMonk (talk) 13:51, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Wallace knew that there was a flightless bird on Reunion. He suggested a mechanism by which it evolved into a flightless bird, which depended on an environment without hostile animals. It does not matter if he thought it was an Elephant Bird or Kiwi, the key idea is that he suggested how a flighted bird might have evolved into a flightless bird specifically on Reunion, and that is one of the pieces missing from the article. Wallace was rather good at evolution. Snowman (talk) 19:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
But if you read the article, you would know that it probably wasn't even flightless after all. FunkMonk (talk) 19:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I am aware that early reports of the flying ability of the ibis vary, without re-reading the article. I suspect that this is not certain, because the reports are old and unscientific. Yes, Wallace said that the birds were totally flightless. Nevertheless, the article could still use his explanation of evolution of flightless birds (with specific reference to Reunion) and then add that the ibis may not have been as flightiness as Wallace assumed. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
No reports mention it was flightless, but one mentions it had difficulty flying. This, combined with the belief that it was a Dodo, is what created the myth that it was completely flightless. So a discussion of how flightiness evolves isn't relevant here. FunkMonk (talk) 21:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that I have been inadvertently deceived by the number of illustrations in the article all with tiny wings and talk of it feeding-up and getting too fat to fly. I now see that using Wallace's explanation in the article is more problematic than I first thought, if the bird was flighted. Snowman (talk) 11:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
... but John Tatton said; "... and so short winged, that they cannot fly, ...". Snowman (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
That's right. But what that means is hard to say. Remember also that the Broad-billed Parrot was long considered flightless and short winged for the same reason, which has been doubted in later years. And what recent sources say (if there is consensus) trumps older, flawed literature. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
From 2004. Hume and Check. The white dodo of Réunion Island: unravelling a scientific and historical myth. "This bird roughly matches the earliest report: Tatton’s account in 1613 of an unnamed “great fowl the bigness of a turkie, very fat, and so short-winged that they cannot flie, beeing white." They say Tattow's account "roughly matches", which tends to complement Tatton's account. Snowman (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
"Complement" is reading too much into it. What it actually says is that itis probably the same bird, nothing else. FunkMonk (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
The bird does not fly. Snowman (talk) 00:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Who knows if he just never saw it fly? If it flew with reluctance, as other witnesses said, he might just not have been lucky. The point is, we can never be sure about these old accounts. That's also why it's important to present them unaltered in the article, because any interpretation is just that: interpretation, nothing more. FunkMonk (talk) 01:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. Whatever is online and stable site goes. FunkMonk (talk) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I guess that you are correct; however, there is potential for Wikisourse to have multiple language translations. Snowman (talk) 19:14, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I realise this article may need a modern restoration of this bird to become less confusing. Since such are not available for free, I will make one myself, based on the fossils and other modern restorations by Julian Hume. I may remove Frohawk's Dodo image to make room. Any thoughts? FunkMonk (talk) 19:16, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
    That is one of the points that I was wondering about, but have not got around to listing. There is a CC image on the Extinction Website in their equivalent of an infobox. Why not use that one? Snowman (talk) 19:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
It is non commercial and derivatives are not allowed, which is not compatible with Commons, and could only be used as fair use. But I can make a more accurate image myself (the beak is too long and head too big). I'm an animator, so drawing is my profession. FunkMonk (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Whoops, I missed the non-commercial aspect of the licence probably because I have not looked at the extinction website for a while. Also, I was thinking about the extinction website image of the Cuban Red Macaw, which is PD, only because it is an old image. Snowman (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Here's something I threw together, any thoughts? Based on the fossils, modern restorations, and modern species. Could be coloured. FunkMonk (talk) 21:00, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
It has a professional and presentable look about it. I think that the "knees" look too high and perhaps the legs and toes look too broad, but I have not measured the sub-fossils. Perhaps slight webbing between toes? see File:Threskiornis_aethiopicus_-London_Zoo,_England-8a.jpg. Look which way the "knees" bend; see File:Flickr - don macauley - Threskiornis aethiopicus 2.jpg. Can you draw it walking to show "knees" bending? Snowman (talk) 21:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree, the limbs are are quite robust compared to living species, but Hume restores them even more so in one of his images. As for webbing, Dubois considered them land birds, and their habitat was forests, there is some discussion of this in the article. Modern restorations show the toes unwebbed, and I believe that is the reason. I await your reply on those issues, but I will fix the knees. FunkMonk (talk) 21:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Dubois says it has feet like a Turkey. See these turkeys which has slightly webbed feet;File:Meleagris_ocellata1.jpg and this one on Flickr. Also, legs should be under centre of gravity. In your first image it looks like it will fall forwards. Snowman (talk) 21:46, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
How about the legs now? It is standing, not walking, so the bend isn't as evident as in those photos, but it should be clear that the ankle is directed backwards, and that the lower leg continues forwards, in a bend. As for leg robustness, you should remember the turkey comparison, which we have discussed at length, I guess it must be an indication of the thickness. FunkMonk (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I just saw your reply, and added web and moved the legs forward: FunkMonk (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we should continue the discussion of this restoration in the paleoart review page, since it is not exactly about the FAC: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Palaeontology/Paleoart_review FunkMonk (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "Cheke, A. S.; Hume , J. P. (2004). "The white dodo of Réunion Island: unravelling a scientific and historical myth". Archives of Natural History 31 (1): 57–79. doi:10.3366/anh.2004.31.1.57+." - doi link is not working on my system. Snowman (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Replaced. Not sure what happened. FunkMonk (talk) 22:08, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, also what sources it was based on. I have added it now, the former description was preliminary. FunkMonk (talk) 22:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. Resolved. Snowman (talk) 22:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
And thanks for the input in the first place. I hope this image will be helpful in the future, because there are not many modern restorations of the bird on the Internet. I had actually thought about making a new restoration long ago, but refrained from it because I thought it would be too speculative. But I think it makes more sense now, especially because it balances the use of older images. FunkMonk (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Want me to elaborate it? FunkMonk (talk) 18:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Some more clues might help. Is it referring to something Marquis Henri Duquesne wrote? Snowman (talk) 19:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll add some more. FunkMonk (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Did the Marquis see the solitaire before Leguat? Snowman (talk) 21:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
He may have plagiarised it from Dubois, according to the paper. But I think that's going too much into detail. FunkMonk (talk) 21:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • See 2004 Hume and Check. The white dodo of Réunion Island: unravelling a scientific and historical mytH. note 16. "Dubois (1674) expressly stated that the solitaire did not have a fat cycle: ..." This seems to contradict the article. Snowman (talk) 19:19, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't contradict the article, but rather the source. It was proposed by one of the original describers, so at most, I can mention it below. FunkMonk (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
The article says it was Mourer-Chauvire who suggested fat cycles. Perhaps, his idea is more controversial than the article implies. Snowman (talk) 19:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
"Controversial" implies "controversy". But there is no controversy. No one has yet contradicted him, or rather, no one has commented on the claim. All we can do is present the different claims. FunkMonk (talk) 19:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC). Snowman (talk) 21:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that Dubois observations on the absence of a fat-cycle in the ibis is an omission. Snowman (talk) 21:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I added it before I read this. FunkMonk (talk) 21:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Article size = 18 kB (2940 words) "readable prose size excluding quote boxes". An article of 15,000–30,000 characters should aim to have two or three paragraphs in the introduction, but the article has four paragraphs. Snowman (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
We've had this discussion before, It's not an FA criterion. It was resolved when Chris Cunningham's suggestions for the lead were implemented. FunkMonk (talk) 22:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There is no need to go against the guidelines and use four paragraphs. I have put it into three paragraphs in this version. Snowman (talk) 00:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Sigh, please read the old discussions. This is just beating a dead horse. The important issues with the lead have been fixed long ago, and now you're nitpicking beyond the FA criteria, so I have no obligation to act on it. FunkMonk (talk) 01:47, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I note that the introduction is now in three paragraphs. Snowman (talk) 09:54, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll trust the sources over Misplaced Pages and a non-research page. "Finally there are sound geological reasons for believing that no dodo could have reached Réunion. Mauritius (Saddul, 1995) and Rodrigues (Giorgi and Borchiellini, 1998) are volcanic islands eight to ten million years old, whereas Réunion is at most three million years old (Montaggioni and Nativel, 1988)." FunkMonk (talk) 11:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I am puzzled why you do not check these facts for yourself. My opinion is that this needs further analysis and I would prefer to source geological data from a geology science books and not ornithology books. I have looked at two geology books on the internet; see Synthesis of Results from Drilling in the Indian Ocean. 1994. Page 94 and The Origin of Volcanic Rocks in the Oceans. 2001. page 94. I have removed the sentences with the errors, because I think they were misleading. Snowman (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The paper obviously doesn't cite ornithological papers (Saddul, 1995) (Giorgi and Borchiellini, 1998) (Montaggioni and Nativel, 1988). Did you notice the citations in the quote? They're to geography studies. Also, one of your sources is even older than the sources used by Cheke and Hume. I'll have to revert you. You also seem to be oblivious to what your own sources say. There are older and younger deposits mentioned in the last one. The oldest are consistent with what Cheke and Hume report. FunkMonk (talk) 12:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Check and Hume quote one source for the age of Reunion, which is Montaggioni, L. F. and Nativel, P., 1988 La Réunion, Ile Maurice. Géologie et aperçus biologiques. Paris: Masson. page 192. They quote one source for the age of Rodriquez, which is Giorgi, L. and Borchiellini, S., 1998 Carte géologique de l’Ile Rodrigues au 1: 25000. Le schema hydrogéologique. La notice explicative. Paris: Ministère Délégué à la Cooperation et de la Francophonie & Geolab. page 28; maps. They sourced the age of Mauritius from one source, which is Saddul, 1995. Mauritius – a geomorphological analysis. Moka: Mahatma Gandhi Institute. Pp 340. Snowman (talk) 13:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Either way, the last source you provided does not seem to give an ultimate age for the islands, only the dates for specific deposits. That is not enough to question anything. FunkMonk (talk) 13:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The later book I quoted above says that present island of Rodriquez (above the sea) was formed on an earlier submarine platform (i.e. below the sea). I have not been able to access the old sources that Check and Hume quote. Snowman (talk) 14:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Chapter 1 of Cheke Hume 2008 has more detail on age, and uses the same dates. FunkMonk (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Mauritius: a geomorphological analysis 2002. Prem Saddul, Bruce Warren Nelson, Amenah Jahangeer-Chojoo. page 320. Says "Rodrigues is the smallest and geologically the youngest of the Mascarene Islands". Snowman (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
In the end, we should really only use the sources that directly relate to the bird. Remember, verifiability, not truth. We're not writing a book here. FunkMonk (talk) 20:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I think that the article can also safely refer to geology references about the age of Rodrigues. Yes, it is discussed in Check and Hume. 2008. "Lost Land of the Dodo". I am not sure which page it is on, because the on-line version does not have page numbers. It might be a different part of the book that you refereed to above. They say that the generally accepted date is that Rodrigues is the youngest island at 1.5 myo. However, they think that the island is probably older than that based on its biology. Note that they use the word "probably". I think that the article does not give a balanced view giving only the older age of Rodriguez and not the generally accepted geological view. My opinion, based mainly on the discussion and debate in the book about the age of Rodrigues, is that that the article should not present the age of Rodrigues at about 8 mya as fact with support from only this book as the source. Snowman (talk) 21:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
You can't continue with the same erroneous argument. It is not "this book" that made it up, it is citing other sources. And again, it is the beginning of chapter four. FunkMonk (talk) 22:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to advance the discussion. The part of the 2008 book I am referring to is chapter 1, which is were the geography of the islands is presented. The age of Rodregues is discussed at the end of chapter 1, where the authors say that the conventional view from geology is that Rodrigues island is 1.5 myo and that the discrepancy between this conventional geological age of the island and the age gauged from its biology remains to be fully resolved. I note that the Wiki article sources from an older work from 2004 by the same authors. The Wiki article presents the age of Rodregeus as about 8 mya as a fact and this it is not stated as an established fact in the 2008 book. Snowman (talk) 22:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I meant chapter one of Cheke Hume 2008. With reference to other works, it says Mauritius is about ten million years old, Réunion about 3, and that Rodrigues is conventionally thought to be 1.5 million years old, but that recent work suggests it is much older. I think you're the one citing outdated information. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
"Suggests". From the Wiktionary; "The guidebook suggests that we visit the local cathedral". This is not the same as saying that a person did visit the cathedral. Also, "The name "hamburger" suggests that hamburgers originated from Hamburg.", and of course this does not say that the hamburgers originated from Hamburg. Please do not remove maintenance from the article tags until the problem has been sorted out. Snowman (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
But there is no problem. You have clearly added the tag in error. Look at the recent sources cited by Cheke Hume 2008, I gave you the location in the book. And I repeat "verifiability, not truth". The paragraph is verified. FunkMonk (talk) 17:15, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
I note that you have removed the maintenance tag, which I put in the article, but I think that this does not make it any more likely that "suggests" can ever mean "is definitely". The book presents the basic aspects of the geology in chapter 1, so when the topic is featured in chapter 4, the author may have expected the reader to have read chapter 1, where the dates of each of the island formation are discussed in detail and where it says that traditional view is that Rogregues island is 1.5 million years old (myo). Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the tag because you have put it there on questionable grounds. You have not provided a more recent source which argues for your claims. We won't use outdated sources here, unless it is in a historical context. And the word "definitely" is not used in the article, so your argument is a red herring. As for the book chapeter, doesn't matter, because itis not the book, but the 2004 paper, that is cited for the info. FunkMonk (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "Cheke and Hume have dismissed such sentiments as being mere "belief" and "hope" in the existence of a Dodo on the island.". This is a comment on Errol Fuller's 2001 book Extinct Birds, but I wonder if Cheke and Hume's comment is put in appropriate context in the article. Fuller's book was originally published in 1987 and a revised edition was published in 2001. The article is using the 2001 book as the in-line references. The revised book deals with the white Dodo completely differently from the old book. The old book describes it as a white dodo-like bird that lived on Reunion; however, the new book is updated and it says that the white dodo is the most celebrated of the hypothetical species. I think this 2001 book by Fuller, a living author, should not be put in better context, if the Check and Hume's comment is going to be kept in the article. I have only got a few glimpses of Fuller's 2001 book on extinct birds and Fuller's 2002 book on the Dodo on the internet. Snowman (talk) 18:30, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
It is a response to the Dodo book, not the Extinct Birds book, so the 1987 date is irrelevant, as the former is notthat old. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
  • If Check and Hume's remark is about Fuller's 2002 book, then it is totally illogical for the Fuller's view mentioned in line before the Check and Hume's remark to be sourced from the 2001 book. Snowman (talk) 17:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
He makes the same argument (page 385), and it is the 2001 version that is used, not the 1987 one, so I really don't see the problem. FunkMonk (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Fuller's 2001 book on extinct birds is a revised edition of the 1987 book and there are key revisions relevant to the white dodo. As far as I can see from glimpses of the 2001 book, Fuller classifies the white dodo as a hypothetical species, which is consistent with the current evidence. I think that Fuller's point of view is not properly represented in the article and the Check and Humes apparent dismissal appears to be out-of-context to me. Why does the article not say that Fuller classifies the white Dodo as a hypothetical species in his 2001 book? Snowman (talk) 18:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it's quite an overstatement to say that he does. In fact, he doesn't. It is in the section about hypothetical species, but so is "Leguatia gigantia", and he does not consider either species valid. What he says is only what I've writtenin the artile: that we can not be sure if the ibis survived into historic times, and that the solitaire could had been anything, even a Dodo. But then again, parsimony would suggest otherwise. FunkMonk (talk) 00:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that the article has taken Check and Hume's remarks, but has used them out of context or has misquoted. As far as I can see, Check and Hume only dismiss the use of pictures to maintain a hope of the white dodo, and they also quote Gibbs. Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

  • This is what the Check and Hume says in 2004: "Despite intensive searches in recent years (Moureret alii, 1999) no dodo-type bones have been found, but this has not prevented some authors from using the white dodo pictures to maintain a belief (Gibbs et alii, 2001) or a hope (Fuller, 2001, 2002) that there was also a dodo on Réunion." Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
  • This is what the Wiki article says; "British writer Errol Fuller agrees the 17th century paintings do not depict Réunion birds, but has questioned whether the ibis subfossils are necessarily connected to the solitaire accounts. He notes that no evidence indicates the extinct ibis survived until the time Europeans reached Réunion. Cheke and Hume have dismissed such sentiments as being mere "belief" and "hope" in the existence of a Dodo on the island."Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Where is the "misquote" exactly? It is paraphrased. FunkMonk (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
To me, the misquoting or where the article is not in context seems to be obvious. The article confuses what Check and Hume says about Gibbs and what they say about Fuller. The only thing that Check and Hume say about Fuller is that Fuller has used white dodo images to maintain a hope (not belief - that was from Gibbs) that there was a Dodo (colour not specified) on Reunion. Also, to me, when the article uses the phrase "these sentiments" it completely mixes up the ideas to be a poor reflection of the sources. Snowman (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
There cannot be "misquote" when there is no quote to begin with. It is paraphrasis. The paper says "Despite intensive searches in recent years (Mourer et alii, 1999) no dodo-type bones have been found, but this has not prevented some authors from using the white dodo pictures to maintain a belief (Gibbs et alii, 2001) or a hope (Fuller, 2001, 2002) that there was also a dodo on Réunion" and I have summarised this in a way that hardly even a child could misunderstand it. FunkMonk (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Above I accidentally used the word "misquote" where I should have said "part of the article that does not reflect what is said in the source". Snowman (talk) 10:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Either way, I've demonstrated you were wrong. It's time to move on. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I am correct, but I have accidentally used the word "misquoted" instead of "the article does not appropriately mirror the source". In case of any more misunderstanding, I have written the problem out in full again:
  • To me, where the article is not in context seems to be obvious (see the quote from the souse and the quote from the article that I have put above). The article confuses what Check and Hume says about Gibbs and what they say about Fuller. The only thing that Check and Hume say about Fuller is that Fuller has used white dodo images to maintain a hope (not belief - that was from Gibbs) that there was a Dodo (colour not specified) on Reunion. Also, to me, when the article uses the phrase "these sentiments" it completely mixes up the ideas and the result in the article has become an a inaccurate criticism of a living author. Snowman (talk) 21:18, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • From Wiktionary; Noun parsimony. "... principle of using the least resources or explanations to solve a problem." I think that if the article is to include that one author dismisses what another author has said, then it should be fully sourced and what both authors have said is explained appropriately and with clarity. Also, the article does not say what Gibbs said about the pictures. Also, sourcing from the 2002 Fuller book is not included in the Wiki article, but Check and Hume refer to this 2002 book. Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
He makes the same argument, but I've added an extra cite, so we don't have to keep discussing this for eternity. As for Gibbs, it is not implied that Fuller is the only person with such views. As for "parsimony", you've completely misunderstood what I meant: the Dodo hypothesis is the least parsimonious one, because no bones have been found. It has nothing to do with which sources the article uses. FunkMonk (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
If an author uses a brief version in his or her book, then the reader does not know what he or she would have said if the book had been written with a lot more detail. Snowman (talk) 11:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
That is correct. And it is irrelevant. Remember, Wiki articles don't give undue weit to fringe theories. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I would have thought that adding the white dodo in the hypothetical species section of his 2001 book and saying that the white dodo is "most celebrated of the hypothetical species", as Fuller does, then he is communicating that the white dodo is a hypothetical species. Snowman (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Again, Leguatia gigantea is there, which is not thought to be valid by anyone. He includes species that have historically thought to be hypothetically valid in that section, even those that are invalid today. FunkMonk (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Presumably, the article uses the Fuller's 2001 book to follow the history of the ideas about birds. The article uses many old books, some hundreds of years old, that use the taxonomy and ideas of the time when they were published. In this case were are interested in what Fuller's 2001 book says about the white dodo and the ibis. Snowman (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
And it does say what he thinks. And it is not that the white Dodo is a hypothetical extinct species that he finds valid: that is your own, erroneous interpretation, which is not relevant to the article. And I repeat for the fourth time: by your logic, Fuller thinks Leguatia is potentially valid too, just because he discusses it in that section. FunkMonk (talk) 19:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
The focus is on the white dodo and the ibis here. Snowman (talk) 11:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, and I repeat, you are wrong. He does not consider the white Dodo likely to be valid. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
That is what I am saying. I am saying that Fuller in his 2001 book does not consider the white Dodo to be a valid species. He considers it to be a hypothetical species. This is why it seems to me to be illogical for the Wiki article to imply that Fuller believes or hopes that the white Dodo exists as a species. Snowman (talk) 21:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that it would be particularity unwise if this article was to be promoted to FA status, if it contains an unbalanced criticism of a living author. Also see "Provisional impression (4)" above. Snowman (talk) 13:24, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Fuller is not a scientist, so his opinion holds less weight. Remember, "undue weight". FunkMonk (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
What difference does that make to writing comments that are out-of-context about Fuller's work? Snowman (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
What "out-of-context "? FunkMonk (talk) 19:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I have transcribed a quote from the article and a quote from Check and Hume's work above and the differences are clear to me. Snowman (talk) 11:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Not to me, or anyone else for that matter. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "... but he also combined accounts about the Rodrigues Solitaire and a third bird ("Oiseau de Nazareth", now thought to be a Dodo) under the same section.": ".. under the same section." seems to be vague. Nazareth is another former island, see Nazareth Bank. I think that readers would be puzzled. I have looked at the source and it seems that the source says that Buffon may have misunderstood the journey of the Buffon's ship. Snowman (talk) 11:14, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I am less vague than the source itself, which simply says "under the solitaire", so it doesn't really matter what you think. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
The source says that it is thought that the author must have thought that the ship went to Reunion, but he probably did not have a good idea where the ship went and in fact it did not go to Reunion. This is much clearer than the article. Snowman (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate's closing comment. This FAC has been open for an exceptionally long time. The consensus is in favor of promotion and I think the later discussions can be concluded on the article's talk page. Graham Colm (talk) 23:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC) .

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Nominator(s): Futuretrillionaire (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think most of the unresolved issues from the previous FAC has now been addressed, mainly source issues. I believe the article is now ready to be a FAC. --Futuretrillionaire (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Were significant contributors consulted prior to nomination? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Do I not count as one? I tried contacting some of them via their talk pages, but they didn't respond :/ Others don't appear to be active on WP anymore.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by JDC808

Lead

  • How come Bethesda Game Studios isn't linked in the first sentence?
  • "a package including both Shivering Isles and the official plug-in Knights of the Nine" I was confused by what "plug-in" meant. I know what an expansion pack is (and found out that Knights is that after clicking on it), but wasn't sure what a plug-in was. Is there a page that plug-in could be linked to? You may also want to link expansion pack in case non-gamers don't understand what it is.
  • The rest is pretty good, albeit one question, is there more recent reports of its sales?

Will be back later for other sections. --JDC808 ♫ 03:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

All done (lede). The lasted approximate sales figures I found was from November 2011.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Please see WP:FAC instructions regarding "done" templates (removed). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm new to the FAC process.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Gameplay

  • Can you give an example of one of the perks?
  • Wikilink first and third person view.

Development

  • "oversaw a development team of 268." I'm assuming that's the amount of people. I didn't get that on the first read. Clarify with either "268 people" or "268 members".
  • Last paragraph of Game World. "For example, an NPC whose goal it is to find food", remove "it".
  • Under Additional Content. "At E3 2007, it was announced that the Game of the Year Edition for The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion would be released in September 2007. In North America and Europe, the game was released in September 2007, for the Xbox 360 and PC," First thing, E3 is an undefined acronym (a non-gamer got on to me about it in a previous FAC). Second, was the GotY edition announced at E3 (as in there were no previous announcements for it)? If so, I'd say reword the first sentence to "At the 2007 Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3), the Game of the Year edition for Oblivion was announced." That'll remove the redundancy of September 2007.

Soundtrack

All done (Gameplay, Develoment, Soundtrack). For the "perks" part, I didn't provide an example, but I think I clarified the statement, making an example unnecessary. One thing I didn't do however, is the part you said about removing BAFTA from the lede. Is the award not notable enough? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Okay. I'm not saying it's not notable enough. It's a great honor. I'm saying it's not necessary for the lead since he's won more than just the BAFTA award. It would sound more impressive to say "and features the music of award winning composer Jeremy Soule" instead of singling out BAFTA. I won't oppose if you don't remove it, that's just my opinion. I'll let you respond before I give my support. --JDC808 ♫ 22:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Ah, okay I see. I removed it. I suppose it does sound better that way. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Support All of my issues have been addressed and fixed accordingly. Good luck with the rest of the FAC and hope it passes. --JDC808 ♫ 23:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Darkwarriorblake

Just some minor things all relating to or around the lede.

  • There is no explanation of what open world is for people not educated on video games, making it useless in the opening sentence and open world isn't a genre. Recommend removing it from there and moving the link to the first instance of "Open World" in the second paragraph where the explanation is present.
  • Also the extensive listing of release dates in the opening prose makes it look messy and is unnecessary, we have the infobox for that, we don't need to know that the PC version, released in 2006, was released through STEAM in 2009, it's not a console its a delivery method, Stick to the earliest release date of different formats
  • JP release dates don't belong in the infobox unless its a Japanese game or the release there is in someway notable
  • There is a mobile release date listed, but I assume this is not strictly the same game but some kind of adaptation? There is no mention of it at all in the article, but while I'm not super up on my phones, I can't imagine it is hte same game. If it is not the game as released on the other platforms then it probably doesn't belong in the infobox about that base game, and should be discussed in the prose either way.
  • Not a major thing and maybe someone else will think different, but similar to above issue, not sure why the Game of the Year release date needs listing in the infobox, its just a re-release of the base game with post-release content, and there are two separate large Game of the Year listings for two different formats.
  • The rest seems OK. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
All done - I've trimmed the release info in the lede and put most of the infobox release dates under a collapsible list, as was done in Halo 2. I've also added info about the mobile phone release in the lede.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
OK, this seems to be the mobile version of the game. I do think that should be described in the prose somewhere, only briefly, even a sentence would do, just saying that type of game it is, since its basically a separate game with the same name. Other than that, I will support this. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is enough, but added some info about the mobile version in the gameplay section: "Oblivion can be played in either a first- or third-person view, except in the mobile phone version, in which the game can only be played in isometric projection." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)


Nit-picky comments by Hahc21

  • Support I thought this was already a featured article, but I see i confused it with Morrowind. I have read this article several times and, for me, it is up to standard. Anyways, I will do a very thorough read again just in case I overlooked anything. — ΛΧΣ 04:37, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Lead
    • You have a quote with no citations on the third paragraph of the lead ("cutting-edge graphics")
    • " The game was developed with fully voiced characters" I think that "with" is not the right word here. You may want to say that "The game featured fully voiced characters". Also, is this for NPCs only? I don't remember the player character to talk; you have to state that too.
    • "Oblivion was well received" by who? Be a little more specific, Like "Oblivion was critically acclaimed, achievign a score of 94 at Metacritic" or something.
    • I think that mentioning how much copies it shipped in 2006 to then add a newer statistic is a bit of not needed. if I were you, I'd only stick with the 3.5m number on the lead.
  • Gameplay
    • "slay monsters"? I think that "slay" is not a word i'd use at an FA.
    • You explain what si Magicka and health, but not stamina.
    • "including standard fantasy monsters like imps and goblins" You may want to wikilink Imp and Goblin.
  • Synopsis
    • "The Emperor and the Blades head to a sewer that leads out of the city, using a secret entrance that is located in the player's cell." The next sentence doesn't make much sense if you don't state here that the prisoner (a.k.a. the player) was taken with them to the sewers. (Yes, I played the game XD)
    • "the group, joined by the player" I think that if you state (on the previous sentence) that the player followed then, you can avoid saying "joined by the player" here.
    • "had a dream containing the player" I think that containing is not the right word here.
  • More coming...
All done - For the sales number part, I changed the wording to emphasize the huge number sold within a month, rather than removing it. For the stamina part, I changed the term to fatigue (the term used in the manual), to avoid confusion. I also added some more info about alleviating fatigue--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Development
    • "Work began on The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion shortly" - I'd prefer "Work on The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion began shortly" Also, I think that you can use Oblivion and Morrowind from now on, given that you have used the expanded names in the lead already.
    • "This version includes graphical improvements that had been made since the PC and Xbox 360 release, and the PS3 version was subsequently praised for its enhanced visual appeal." - If "This version" refers to the PS3 version, then you don't need to later state that "and the PS3 version was" because you are already talking about it, and confuses the reader.
    • "a more realistic storyline, more believable characters, and more meaningful quests than had been done in the past" - In my opinion, the first "more" encompasses the entire sentence, so the other two instances of the word are not needed.
    • "The game features improved artificial intelligence (from previous titles in the series) from the Bethesda proprietary Radiant A.I." - I'd consider removing the ()s and changing "from previous titles" to "in comparison with previous titles" and "from the Bethesda proprietary Radiant A.I." to "thanks to the use of Bethesda's proprietary Radiant A.I." or similar.
    • "and enhanced physics with" --> "as well as enhanced physics..." to avoid weird wordings, given that the previous sentence is a bit long. Also, you can use a semi colon and write it like this: "it also includes enhanced physics...", which will read even better.
  • Reception
    • The paragraphs of this section seem to be too long. Would you consider splitting them? You have to big paragraphs that could be better handles as three, same-sized ones.
    • Try to reduce a bit more the use of quotes, if possible.
  • The rest of the article is very good. I have no more nitpicky comments. Good job :) — ΛΧΣ 01:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
All done - For the reception section, I've done some reorganizing based on the aspect of the game being discussed, and summarized long and unnecessary quotes.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Great. Now it is up to standard. You already got my support, so good luck. — ΛΧΣ 18:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Niwi3

  • Comment: "To achieve its goals of designing "cutting-edge graphics",... " could you just say "To design the graphics,..." and then move the reference to the development section? In my opinion, leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, so quotes are not needed.--Niwi3 (talk) 12:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Done --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
You didn't move the reference to the development section. Instead, you simply removed it. If the lead summarizes the article (as it should), then all information in the lead is also in the body of the article, so you should be able to use that reference in the body. Also, ref 120 has an inconsistent date format.--Niwi3 (talk) 22:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I fix the date format error. As for the ref, I've added that ref recently because a reviewer noticed that the quote "cutting-edge graphics" (which is mentioned 2 times in the article) didn't have a source. The sole purpose of that ref was to support the quote. There are plenty of other sources in the development section describing the game's graphics development. However, I do agree that removing the ref was a mistake, because there the quote "cutting-edge graphics" is still used in another part in the article (specifically, the caption of an image). I've re-added the ref, and put it in that caption.
Nice work.--Niwi3 (talk) 22:52, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I've added the parameter for all the WebCite archives, which I've recently added after I hearing the news that GameSpy and 1up are shutting down. However, I'm not sure if I need to add the parameter for the ones that use the Wayback Machine.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Add the parameter for all archived URLs, including the ones that use Wayback Machine.--Niwi3 (talk) 09:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Done --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:24, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Nice work. I will give it a full read through when I have time.--Niwi3 (talk) 14:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think the development section is not very well-organized and the presentation is unclear/unfocused. Why does the Additional content subsection include the Game of the Year and 5th anniversary editions? I mean, do these editions include bonus in-game content? Also, after reading Development of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, I noticed that the development section does not summarize adequately the article; it focuses too much on the game world and release, instead of focusing on the "overall picture" of development. In my opinion, if there's already an article that talks about the development of the game, then the development section of the game should be similar to the lead of that article. See Template:Main and WP:SS.--Niwi3 (talk) 21:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I think I addressed the other editions issue by creating a new subsection. As for the development section overall, can you be more specific about what kind of things are missing? I can't notice anything significant mentioned in the development article that's not already mentioned here.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
You are mainly missing the game's marketing (product showings), and the Mobile phone version (despite mentioning it in the game's infobox). I think you should at least mention that the game appeared at E3 2005. Also, I would merge the Game world subsection into the development and then move the release info of the first paragraph to the end of the section. In my opinion, things should be ordered chronologically: development -> marketing -> release (including later editions) -> additional content. If you don't mind, I can help you with this.--Niwi3 (talk) 10:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I've done a little reorganization, added info about the E3 and Consumer Electronics Show product showings, and info about the mobile phone version release. What do you think? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:16, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Great work. I think it's much better now. Only 2 things: rename the Release section as "Marketing and release", and, if possible, try to merge some paragraphs together to make the Marketing and release section flow better.--Niwi3 (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Done There are now 3 paragraphs in the section. One for the product showings, one for the releases of the main game, and one for later editions.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Great work. In my opinion, the article is much better organized now.--Niwi3 (talk) 20:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Delegate comment -- As issues were raised at this article's last FAC following Nikkimaria's source review and Laser brain's spotcheck, I've pinged both for follow-ups here (though admittedly the latter hasn't been around for a while). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I doubt they will find any significant issues. I've already done an extensive source spot-check on the article and fixed all the problems I found. However, I do agree that an outside party should confirm this for obvious reasons.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:53, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Source review (I haven't checked the last FAC, so if I'm reraising something already discussed just let me know)

  • Source for the system requirements table? (And can it be a bit bigger?)
  • Dead link
  • Use a consistent date format, and be consistent in when accessdates are provided
  • Check consistency of GameSpot refs - italicization, capitalization, and inclusion of publisher varies
  • FN9: page formatting
  • Check consistency of wikilinking - for example, GameSpot is only linked in FN10 but appears earlier
  • IGN or IGN Entertainment?
  • FN14: page formatting
  • FN22 should use endash, check for others
  • FN25: this is a big range, can it be narrowed?
  • Be consistent in when/whether you include publisher for web refs
  • Compare FNs 38 and 40
  • FN81 should use endash, check for others
  • Check italicization consistency - for example, 1Up.com is sometimes italicized, sometimes not. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Spotchecks of 5 sources found nothing concerning. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

According to someone from the previous FAC, the source for the system requirements is that official guide, which is right being only being used for the plot section. I don't own the guide, so I can't narrow the page range or verify the system requirements from that. However, I was able to find online sources for the system requirements. I'm not concerned about the large range book source since it's only covering the plot section. If there's something wrong, someone would have noticed it by now. The deadlink you brought up is already archived, and it's working for me. In my opinion, access dates are only needed when the publication date is not available. I'm not sure why you asked me to compare what was FN 38 and FN 40. IGN Entertainment is the owner of the website IGN. As for the rest of the more minor issues, I'll fix those as soon as I can.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I think I've fixed everything except for the inconsistent wikilinking issue and the inconsistent inclusion of publisher for web refs issue. Not sure what you mean by "page formatting".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
IGN is owned by J2 Global. --JDC808 ♫ 08:09, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I believe I have now fixed all the publisher issues.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:54, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
When you're citing multiple pages, you should use "pp." rather than "p.", and the range should use an endash not a hyphen. In fact, hyphens vs dashes remains an issue throughout refs. There was a formatting discrepancy between the compared refs (now 41 and 43) which has since been resolved. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I believe I have now fixed all the page format and hyphen/endash issues, which just leaves the inconsistent wikilink problem.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
I believe I've now made the wikilinks in the refs consistent. For web sources, only the "work" is wikilinked. Is there anything else to do? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a couple more hyphen/dash issues, ex FN 103, something strange wikilink-wise in FN119 (compare 118) and 128, and a different approach to wikilinking in Further reading than in refs. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I fixed the wikilink errors and the Further reading wikilinks. I also fixed one remaining hypen/dash error. However, I purposely didn't change the hyphens for FN 28 and FN 103 because the hyphens are used in the titles of the sources themselves.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
All resolved, tks guys. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Image check

Image check - still OK (already checked and trimmed in previous reviews, no new images, FURs detailed and specific). GermanJoe (talk) 14:19, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC) .

Push the Button (Sugababes song)

Nominator(s): Till 08:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe that it meets the FA criteria. It is both well-written and comprehensive in its coverage, and the story of how the song came about is very interesting. The first nomination was closed because nobody commented on it, and I withdrew the second nomination so the whole article could be redone. Till 08:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by Wikipedian Penguin

Support Oppose Initial comments – the content seems satisfactory and the major information is there. But with regard to prose, it needs work. Choice of words appears problematic in some instances ("crush" is informal writing, and any reason "utilises" is used instead of "uses"?), and why link "teasing", the article for which does not disambiguate the meaning of the word in that context. Do you mean "seducing" (I haven't seen the video)? —WP:PENGUIN · 00:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

When I rewrote the section for a second time, I used 'crush' instead of limerence. Should I add that back instead? Also, I changed 'utilise'. As for teasing, I don't feel comfortable in writing 'seducing' instead because that is more persuading somebody to engage in sexual acts. I unlinked it anyway. Till 02:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm thinking "was infatuated with", but that may give the wrong meaning and sounds, shall I say, fancy. For "teasing", I consider "seducing" and "flirting with" as alternatives but if you have something else, that's good; "teasing" is far too ambiguous here. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Changed "teasing" to "flirting". Till 07:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

In good conscience, I do not think the article is ready as a potential featured article yet. Work needs to be done throughout. The prose seems a little rushed and reads awkward in places. It needs to be tightened and be more cohesive.

  • "It was composed by Dallas Austin in collaboration with the Sugababes, after group member Keisha Buchanan developed a crush on another artist who collaborated with Austin." – why not just "...Dallas Austin and the Sugababes..."? There is no need for the added words in this context.
  • "...compositionally, it makes use of various computer and electronic effects." – what is the difference between the two?
  • This is something I see pop up in a lot of pop music articles and I don't see it as necessary: you have "music critics" written. Why should the type of critic be noted in a music article? Would a film or video game critic review a pop song?
  • "also" is a needless word in these instances: "Some critics also named it one of best pop singles of the 2000s. The song attained worldwide success and became one of the Sugababes' most successful singles"; "It was also parodied by firefighers in Staffordshire, England."
  • I don't mind this one too much, but a better grammatical construction would be appreciated here: "It features the Sugababes flirting with three men in an elevator."
  • "numerous" – " The Sugababes have performed the song at numerous festivals and events such as Oxegen 2008 and the V Festival 2008." – that's a bit of a hyperbole.
  • There is more redundancy here: "They subsequently composed five tracks for the album, one of which was 'Push the Button'." – why "subsequently"? It's obvious. Likewise, "for the album".
  • The sentence immediately after begins with "Push the Button"... Not pleasant to read.
  • {{cquote}} is not used in lieu of block quotations. It is used for pull quotes that are already given in the article. Stick to {{quote}} or the <blockquote> tags.
  • "Austin produced the song, while Rick Shepphard completed the engineering process." – just "...engineered it".
  • That last paragraph in the development and concept section needs reordering. Typically, recording is done before mixing and engineering.
  • "...the tempo of the song moves at a fast-paced 126 beats per minute" – subjective "fast-paced".
  • A few redundancies here: "while Joe Muggs of The Daily Telegraph noted that Austin's production of the song combines <both electropop and American R&B together." – first "both" is needless here and never say "combine ... together".
  • Content-wise, the composition section feels weak. We are given info about the genre, and musical technicalities, but there isn't enough on things like song structure and lyrical analysis, which I'd expect on an article about a major hit. The song was released over seven years ago; have you considered print sources?
  • Again, why "first" and "for release as" in, "'Push the Button' was first announced for release as the lead single from Taller in More Ways in August 2005."
  • Still there are reundancies: "According to group member Heidi Range, the song was not intended to be the lead single, and it was the last track to be completed for the album."
  • Overlinking: why link "music critics"?
  • First paragraph in Release and reception does not have a smooth flow to it. For example, this is very repetitive: "'Push the Button' was released as a CD single and digital download on 26 September 2005. The tracks on the CD single and digital download include the single release of 'Push the Button'..."

That's where I stopped. Till, it would be of your best interest to find a good uninvolved writer to give this article a thorough independent copy edit from top to bottom. And have a look at print sources that can strengthen the article's content and comprehensiveness. With a good amount of collaborative effort, this article can succeed. But right now, it is unfortunately not there yet. —WP:PENGUIN · 15:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking time to give feedback. For the meantime, I have fixed these issues. Also, I added a source to support the 'fast-paced' claim. Till 02:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome. I am open to striking out my oppose when I think it is no longer appropriate. Cheers. —WP:PENGUIN · 10:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Btw. How do I find information on the song structure? I have searched everywhere online and on Google books and found nothing. Till 08:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Google Books usually doesn't have everything. There are bookstores, e-books and libraries too. But you're more likely to find good information from the 90s, which is unfortunate because the composition section is a little underwhelming. But I only ask of you what's possible to do. —WP:PENGUIN · 02:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
For guitar-based songs, I typically check print magazines like Guitar World,Musician, and the like, who tend to delve into the musical/compositional side of things a lot. For a "non-rockist" pop song, it can be trickier; at most a web publication like Sound On Sound might talk about the production and how elements of the song are arranged. It's very possible you might end up with little information about the song's composition (I doubt you'll end up with a Composition section that looks like the one in "Paranoid Android"), but make all efforts to find any relevant information that might exist--as WikiPenguin said, that involves scouring print resources. Also, I'd recommend refraining from citing the sheet music, which is akin to citing the screenplay of a film; commentary on what's notable in a song should be drawn from independent, secondary sources. Refrain from citing album reviews for factual information about musical structure and composition, as by their nature reviews are opinion pieces. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for this information, although Sound on Sound has nothing. Till 08:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Heads up: no commas after dmy date formats, please. —WP:PENGUIN · 02:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
    • There aren't any but thanks Till 11:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
      See my edits. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
      Oh I didn't know it applied to that as well, I thought you meant 1 January, 2000. Btw, I went to the library and found nothing on this song. Till 12:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
      That's unfortunate. I think we have a case similar to that of Rehab (Rihanna song): they have the major information, but they don't go into enough detail. "Rehab" is an FA, and one I supported because it is as comprehensive as can be, and it is well presented. So since we've as much information as we can have, the presentation is the one chance we have to make this article shine as "one of Misplaced Pages's best". That comes with good organization, flow and language. That is to say we should work towards a thorough copy edit. Also, the sound sample in this article does not seem very useful. What value does it have for enhancing the reader's understanding of the article? —WP:PENGUIN · 13:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
      Thanks Penguin. I'm still looking for any online sources I may have missed. The sample shows the computer effects used in the song. Btw, do you know where I could fit information about a cover? Till 01:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
      You're welcome. I hope you find something. You'll need a better rationale to keep the sample than just the use of computer effects. Include the Allmusic and Daily Telegraph observations in the caption. Otherwise, you're better off removing it. The cover can either go into the reception section or the pop culture section. The latter works well in that it will help round off the article nicely. —WP:PENGUIN · 01:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
      I have expanded the composition section to the best of my ability, and fixed the rationale for the sample. Till 10:38, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
      Thanks, I'll take a look soon. —WP:PENGUIN · 00:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
      Okay thanks Till 23:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Revisit

Lead
  • Lead sentence says just "Sugababes", while following instances use "the Sugababes". I'd probably tweak this sentence to clarify.
  • "It was composed by Dallas Austin and the Sugababes, and was inspired by a crush that group member Keisha Buchanan developed on another artist."—probably "...was inspired by an infatuation that group member Keisha Buchanan developed with another artist."
  • "'Push the Button' is a pop and electropop song with elements of electronic and R&B."—some redundancy here. Electropop is just a subgenre of pop and electronic. Essentially, it's an electropop song with elements of R&B.
  • Likewise, there is redundancy in the infobox too.
  • "It makes use of various computer effects, and is lyrically about a woman's sexual frustration of being unnoticed by a man."—just "uses". In most circumstances, avoid expressions such as "make use of", "make plans to", etcetera, when these can be expressed with one verb.
  • Reword so that we don't have two consecutive paragraphs beginning with the title of the song.
  • "...who praised the conception as clever, as well its production and sound."—clunky.
  • "The song attained worldwide success and became one of the Sugababes' most successful singles."—does not read nicely owing to the repetition.
  • "It features the Sugababes flirting with three men in an elevator. The Sugababes have performed the song at festivals and events such as Oxegen 2008 and the V Festival 2008."—also repetitive. Why not "the group", instead, in the second sentence?
More to come later on. But that work is still needed to be done is evident. —WP:PENGUIN · 21:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Fixed these issues Till 02:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
One more left, the first point. —WP:PENGUIN · 08:41, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Because the name of the group is 'Sugababes', ie. the name of this specific girl group is 'Sugababes', but they are "the Sugababes", as without 'the' it sounds like an adjective Till 08:48, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Background
  • "... developed an infatuation on another artist who was also collaborating with Austin."—remove "also" since we have "another".
  • "Austin wrote five tracks on the album..."—"for the album", not on.
  • "Austin gave advice to Buchanan about the misunderstanding between her and the artist, and developed the idea of the man to 'push that button' or she would eventually move on."—just a tad awkward-sounding. Perhaps "advised"?
Composition
  • "...with a tempo of a fast-paced 126..." → "...with a fast-paced tempo of 126..."
  • "The production of "Push the Button" consists of various computer beats and electronic effects."—remove "of 'Push the Button'".
  • "Joe Macare of Stylus Magazine described Buena's delivery of the lyric 'my sexy ass' as "carefree', and noted that the lyrics adapt an 'idiosyncratic approach"' to the English language. Musically, "Push the Button" received comparisons to the sound of pop group Abba."—no need to italicize "my sexy ass".
More to come. I think we can get through the sections quickly. The composition section is also looking better. Good research. —WP:PENGUIN · 09:09, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Fixed these issues for the meantime Till 09:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Release and reception
  • "It was released as a CD single and digital download on 26 September 2005. Both release formats also contain a B-side titled 'Favourite Song'..."—the sentences can be merged by removing needless repetition: "It was released as a CD single and digital download on 26 September 2005 with a B-side titled 'Favourite Song'..."
  • "An extended play of 'Push the Button' was also released, which includes..."&mdahs;erroneous grammar and redundancy. You have the title of the song twice in that sentence, so "of 'Push the Button'" can be removed. "Also" can be removed as well. And when you have "which", the noun that it refers to should directly precede it. Otherwise, write "including".
  • "... composed by the Sugababes, Cathy Dennis, and Guy Sigsworth."—use "written" here to avoid repetition.
  • I think the prose in the first paragraph should be varied more. Repetitive prose seems to be an issue in the article and needs to be dealt with. Sentence structures are far too similar. Be a little more creative with the wording (e.g. "Island Records released an extended play", or something like that).
  • "Linda McGee from RTÉ.ie applauded the song's beat and melody, and suggested that it was the best track on the album."—"suggested" doesn't seem like the best word to use. Maybe "wrote" or something similarly simple.
  • There's more repetitive prose here. Every sentence begins in the second paragraph begins with " of ". It's almost as proseliny in the third paragraph.
  • "Alexis Petridis of The Guardian described the melody of 'Push the Button' as 'sweet and addictive as Smarties'."—well of course it's the melody of "PTB"; what other song would it be? There're many times you write "of 'Push the Button'" when all the words are doing is just fluffing up the prose.
  • I think Observer Music Monthly should be italicized.
More to come. This section needs some copy editing I'm afraid. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:32, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Did everything except for changing "composed". Allmusic says the writers & producers and I can't tell who did what, whereas 'composed' can refer to both. Till 05:18, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Better, but the general strcture is all too repetitive. Try different ways to open sentences (eg. "according to" and use transitions (eg. "likewise") and play around; experiment with variation. As for "composed", we have to do something about the two side-by-side sentences that end the same way. —WP:PENGUIN · 23:25, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Did more copyediting Till 23:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Still need more work. For example, the copy edit introduced redundancy: "Comparing the song to those performed by Abba" (the subsequent quotation makes this obvious). It's often hard to copy edit sections like these, but repetitive prose = ungainly reading. Let me have a go if you don't mind. Thanks, —WP:PENGUIN · 17:45, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay thanks. Till 00:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Commercial performance
  • "It became the Sugababes' fourth single to reached number one in the UK."
  • Do not capitalize certifications.
  • "'Push the Button' entered the Irish Singles Chart at number two, and peaked at number one the next week for three consecutive weeks."—a date here to get an idea of when this happened would be nice. Also, trim the prose: "...and was number one the next three weeks."
  • "...and became the Sugababes' best-performing single in Austria."&mdsah;vague. Per source it's the highest-charting single perhaps?
  • The prose here is repetitive too. ("peaked at"..."peaked at"...)
  • "It was Germany's 86th most successful single of the 2000s decade."—"decade" not necessary.
  • "'Push the Button' debuted at number 24 on the Australian Singles Chart for the issue dated 30 October 2005."—"in" the issue, not "for".
  • There's a MOS:NUM problem here. Chart positions are being formatted as both numbers and words; as per the exceptions to the 9+ rule of thumb, you must do either one.
  • You have five of the eight certifications mentioned in this section. This makes me wonder whether a table is even necessary and why wouldn't you just write out all the certification information in the prose. No sense repeating information. At the most, mention the two highest certifications in the prose, and leave the rest for the table. —WP:PENGUIN · 11:42, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Changed '24' to twenty-four Till 12:24, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
  • And this—"It was the group's first number-one single in New Zealand."
Yeah it does, just scroll down until you see "Sugababes in New Zealand Charts" and it shows all of the group's singles that charted there and Push the Button has a 1 next to it Till 22:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
OK, thanks. —WP:PENGUIN · 08:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Music video
  • "The music video for 'Push the Button' was directed by American director Matthew Rolston, who previously collaborated with the Sugababes on the videos for their singles 'Hole in the Head' and 'In the Middle'."—awkward tense. Subsititute "previously" for "had".
  • "It was filmed in Shepherd's Bush, London during July 2005."—insert a comma after "London".
  • "Several models and dancers auditioned to appear in the video, and were selected based on their dancing talent."—even models were chosen based on dancing talent?
  • "Buena described it as a 'really cheeky video', while Buchanan expressed her desire for it to be more suggestive."—this lacks logical flow and has poor connection. Also, it's wordy. Surely by "expressed her desire for", you mean "wanted".
  • "Some clips were removed from the final product due to their sexual content."—"due to" is adjectival. The removal of the clips was "due to" the sexual content, but they were removed "owing to" or "because of" it.
  • "The video features Range, Buchanan and Buena on separate floors of an elevator."—you might not even need this sentence since it's explained in the following sentences.
  • I may be wrong, but do they use "elevator" in the UK?
  • "Three different men separately enter the lift and are taken to three different floors, one for each of the group's members."—repetitive. Try something like "Three men separately enter the lift and are each taken to a different floor, where they meet a member of the Sugababes."
  • "The first man, described by Buena as 'Mr Shy Guy', arrives on the floor where Range is, in which they begin flirting with each other."—ungrammatical. "and they begin" would work.
  • "Meanwhile the second man, 'Mr Too Cool', enters the lift and is taken to the floor where Buchanan is. Buchanan is shown flirting and dancing with him. The third man, known as 'Mr Perfect', enters the lift with an umbrella, and arrives on Buena's floor."—remove "described as" and "known as" (redundancy).
  • "her man" does not sound like an encyclopedic writing style.
  • "Daily Mirror's Gavin Martin wrote that the Sugababes..."—"they" would be good pronoun referencing here. —WP:PENGUIN · 01:59, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I fixed these issues, except for the 'models and dancers' one—the source says that both were in it. However, I wrote it wrong, because the source doesn't say that several ones auditioned, it just says that the guys who were in the video are models and dancers. Till 07:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Buena described the video as 'really cheeky' and spoke about her satisfaction with it, saying: 'I thought the video turned out really great in the end'."—infomation is being repeated here, in the form of orignial prose, and a subsequent quotation.
  • "He compared Buchanan's dancing to that of American girl group Destiny Child's in the video for their single 'Bootylicious'."—ungrammatical. Remove "that of", or the possessive "'s" after "Child".
Live performances
  • You don't seem to use the pronoun "they" very often in the article. I think it can help you reduce a lot of the repetition.
  • "It was the gig's closing performance, and according to a critic from MTV UK..."—need a comma after "and".
  • Spot the repetition—"The group performed 'Push the Button' at London's G-A-Y nightclub in November 2006, wearing PVC clothing and rubber gear.'Push the Button' was included in the set list of the group's 2008 Change Tour."
  • "The group performed the song on 28 August 2008 at the Bridlington Spa. A rock version of 'Push the Button' was performed at the 2008 V Festival in Essex, England."—merge these sentences for better flow.
  • No comma after "In November 2008", "In October 2011", "June 2012", etc.
  • "...which included the group's debut single 'Overload', in addition to her solo tracks."—should be "that".
  • "Range wore a red, sparkly cropped top and hotpants for the performance."—fan cruft.
Recognition and popular culture
  • "The video was promoted through the video sharing website, YouTube, which was viewed more than 44,000 times."—who doesn't know what YouTube is? And correct the grammar issue in this sentence: "which" is supposed to directly follow "video", because that is what it's referring to.
  • Peter Dartford's quotation is about 60 words long. Suggest turning it into a block quote.
  • "Andy Kellman of Allmusic described 'Push the Button' as one of the most 'clever and suggestive' pop singles of the 2000s decade, while Cameron Adams of the Herald Sun similarly highlighted it as one of the decade's best pop singles. In October 2008, Nick Levine of Digital Spy called the song one of the best pop singles of the 21st century."—note the repetition of "pop singles".
  • "amongst" is a little too formal. Keep it plain (i.e. "among").
  • You've got to do something about the prose here. It feels repetitive, choppy, and there are some redundancies throughout. I tweaked the wording a little, but it needs more work. Improve the flow of the language. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Much better, although I'm still concerned about the repetition of "the song" and the title itself in this section. I hope you can reduce that, thanks. —WP:PENGUIN · 02:23, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
And now???? Till 02:29, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Final note: I've struck my oppose; while my comments were technically addressed, I still don't feel the prose is well up there in terms of criterion 1a. It reads a little rougher in some places than I'd like. The prose feels little bumpy here and there and tweaks are still having to be made. I was not planning to do a top–bottom review, but after the article had been expanded I'd thought it wouldn't be too much. However, the article can still benefit from a copy edit. My main concern is the flow. Parts read a little like a list and that's rather ungainly. It's close, but pay special attention to the cohesiveness and I think the prose will finally be "professional, even brilliant". When you're ready, let me know on my talk page and I'll have a look (probably once Jivesh is happy). —WP:PENGUIN · 14:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, 2 other editors who commented here said that the prose was fine. An FA doesn't have to be perfect it just has to be a representation of Misplaced Pages's best work. If I read the article thoroughly and others have said that the prose is satisfactory, then I can't know what to fix sorry. Till 23:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps my opinion was a bit rushed and hasty, and I apologize if it came out that way. I just reread the full article and the prose is quite good; it just feels a little rough in some spots. I certainly don't see opposing appropriate at this point and I do plan on eventually supporting. As I'd said, let me know when you've dealt with Jivesh's concerns. There's not really anything to "fix", but maybe places where you can improve the writing. I'll continue to do what I can. It's a short article, so I wouldn't mind. Cheers. —WP:PENGUIN · 01:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
All I'm saying is that we have spent the last 4-5 weeks copyediting and fixing the article, going through each section, sentence by sentence, so I don't see how there could still be things that need editing. To be honest, if the changes are not good enough at this point then the article is a lost cause Till 02:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I have copyedited some parts of the article, again. Inc. the repetition of "pop singles", and "composed by.." Till 03:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'm good with the improvements. I was probably nitpicking a little too much. I agree that not much more can be done with the prose, and you're right: it does not have to be perfect. I've thought about this, and I do think it is very well written and meets FA standards. Some of the recent copy edits were just enough to convince me that this article is ready. And since the FAC has been open for this long, I have to put in a !vote, so I support its promotion. —WP:PENGUIN · 11:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow thanks Penguin, it has been a pleasure working with you on this. Till 12:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed! —WP:PENGUIN · 13:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Jivesh boodhun

Comment(s)

  • The prose seems satisfactory according to me. My main concern here is the formatting of references. You should be able to differentiate between {{cite news}} and {{cite web}}. The former is used for published newspapers while the latter is used for online as well as published magazines and other websites. This is by far the simplest way I can explain this to you and I sincerely hope it helps. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18:17, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Is Legacy the appropriate word to use for titling this section? I do not think this song has very much of a legacy to be honest. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18:28, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I was under the impression that "cite news" is only for news articles. Also, I renamed the section to 'Impact'. Till 02:17, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm, what about Recognition? Impact and Legacy are two words that should be used carefully. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Changed. Also, I fixed the references. Till 11:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
FYI: you could always avoid the cite template mix-ups by forgoing them completely. That's what I do these days. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting approach. Till 08:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Really? With all the respect I owe to you, I do not think that's a very recommendable thing to do. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:37, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Do note that all sorts of reference styles are accepted on Misplaced Pages, but WP:CITEVAR says not to change an established ref style without consensus. So if Till wants to forgo using cite templates on further articles, they are perfectly able to do so. But if the ref style is to be changed for this article, it's probably not the best idea at this stage--but it can be done. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Okay. Do what pleases you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Till, what bothers me next about this article is its composition section. Can it be expanded if possible? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I have looked everywhere for sources to expand this section but still nothing was found. I guess I will have to make a trip to the library. Till 08:04, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I went to the library but they didn't have anything. Perhaps I haven't... used the sources to their full potential? Till 08:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
That's a possibility. :) Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hey, I expanded the composition and lyrics section. Till 10:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: I did a partial prose review at the August 2012 FAC. I think the prose is now considerably improved; I have made a couple of minor edits, and suggest you consider a few more:

  • At present, too many sentences begin with "'Push the Button'...", sometimes successively. You should try to vary this more.
  • Some whole sentences are rather repetitiously worded. For example, " 'Push the Button' debuted at number two on the Irish Singles Chart and peaked at number one the following week, becoming the group's first single to top the chart in Ireland" is followed soon after by "'Push the Button' debuted at number one on the Austrian Singles Chart and held the position for five consecutive weeks, becoming the Sugababes' best-performing single in Austria" and then "'Push the Button' debuted at number five on the German Singles Chart and peaked at number two three weeks later". Again, more variation in the prose would improve readability.
  • Delete the word "Synoptically". It's usually a bad idea to begin sentences with adverbs, and this is no exception. The section makes perfect sense without it.

Other than these suggestions, I can't see a great deal wrong with the prose. Editors with better knowledge of popular music than mine will have to decide whether the content is adequate and comprehensive, and I'll keep an eye on the review to see how things develop in that direction. Maybe the other reviewers could summarise, bearing in mind your responses so far, what they think is still lacking in the article? Brianboulton (talk) 00:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Fixed these issues pointed out. Reviewers said the composition section was too short but I have since expanded it, they are yet to comment on that Till 02:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
At a quick glance the article seems to have greatly improved with regards to comprehensiveness and the composition section seems adequate for an FA. I'll read it more thoroughly when I review the section. —WP:PENGUIN · 08:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


Revisiting - Leaning to Support

  • From the second para of the lead, why is Best British Single in double quotes?
  • From the third para of the lead, "Push the Button" appears on the soundtrack to It's a Boy Girl Thing (2006) and is featured on a commercial for Tassimo coffee machines. The song was parodied by firefighters based in Staffordshire, England. - Why are these two sentences here? Do you really think they need to be mentioned in the lead? Wasn't that parody just a random one or was the song parodied by firefighters from different regions of the world?
  • Buchanan told Jess Cartner-Morley of The Guardian in September 2005 that she made advances towards the man, but he was unaware of her intentions - I think it will be best to either move the date to the beginning of the sentence or simply remove it for a better flow.
  • Joe Muggs of The Daily Telegraph wrote that Austin's production combines "raucous" electropop with "slick" American R&B. - I strongly believe this sentence will fit best directly after the first sentence of the composition section or find a way to join these two sentences so that one sentence does not appear as a repetition of the other one.
  • Critics wrote positive reviews for "Push the Button". - So all reviews were positive?
  • "Linda McGee from *RTÉ.ie applauded the song's beat and melody" - I think commended will be a better verb here.
  • Observer Music Monthly described the song's lyrics as "perfect pop" and recognized it. - American English?

Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18:29, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC) .

Death of Jimi Hendrix

Nominator(s): GabeMc 05:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this because I believe the article is well-written, well-researched and comprehensive. GabeMc 05:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • The lead doesn't feel right to me, but I'll skip that.
  • You're switching between past perfect and past tense; generally, use past tense in a narrative.
  • "By around 2 p.m. he had sat": I'm not sure of the meaning. "he was sitting", maybe? If not, then probably just "He sat ..."
  • I've made some changes that I think will help. I'm going to stop there, because I'm not confident that I know what this article is supposed to sound like ... understandably, it dwells on what would have been tedious details on any other day, so it's hard for a copyeditor to know what to strike and what to keep. In general, try to eliminate words that don't add meaning. Best of luck. - Dank (push to talk) 04:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the comments, I'll keep them in mind as I edit. The past perfect thing has been "forced" on me by so many other editors, I don't even fight them anymore. Maybe I'll get away with it now. GabeMc 04:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Continuing. "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix was fatigued and suffering from poor health" is repeated word for word 3 paragraphs later. Sometimes in a long article I see things repeated verbatim, but not that close together.
  • "he was infrequently examined by doctors.": Not sure what that means.
    • It means he "rarely saw a doctor", which I suspected someone would accuse of being grammatically incorrect. Afterall, I could walk into a hospital and see a doctor or two, but that would not mean I was examined medically. Is there something incorrect about "infrequently examined by doctors"? Would "rarely examined by doctors" be an improvement? GabeMc 22:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "it was determined": who determined? A doctor?
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 04:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Neutral. Sarastro has convinced me that I'm in over my head here; I'm not familiar enough with articles like this one to do a good job with the prose. Sorry. - Dank (push to talk) 15:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Comments from a brief glance
  • Add pics of Hendrix.
  • Lead and infobox makes doesn't name what city he died in.
    • Its unclear if he died at the Samarkand Hotel, Notting Hill or at St Mary Abbot's Hospital, Kensington, London, so I've added to the lead that he was pronounced dead at St Mary Abbot's. GabeMc 23:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Infobox: you should flesh out the caption, location and date like Death of John Lennon.
    • The infobox used at "DOJL" is for a civilian attack, so I'm not sure how I could use that infobox here. Perhaps there is a better alternative that you could suggest. GabeMc 23:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm wondering—should Background have a paragraph or two summarising his life and status just before his death? Basically, who he was. That he was major musician, internationally renowned for his new style of guitar-playing etc?
  • Can Final hours and Inconsistencies be subsectioned? They look imposing and monotonous. You can also add pics.
    • I've now subsectioned "Final hours" and moved some material around from "Inconsistencies" so as to improve brevity and flow. I think this resolves your above concern. GabeMc 23:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Can Inquiry and Allegations be merged? One-paragraph sections look stubby.

Not sure I'll be revisiting. Best of luck with the FAC.—indopug (talk) 05:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Indopug. I appreciate your comments and hope you can find the time to revisit. GabeMc 23:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Image review by FunkMonk (talk) 02:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by Evanh2008

Looks like a good article, and I should be supporting shortly.

Lead section:

  • "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix was fatigued" - I'm pretty sure this, and the next sentence, should be in the past perfect. Others may disagree, and this is probably nothing more than a stylistic decision on my part.
  • "Finding no evidence" - I would use the past perfect for this sentence too. The rest of the lead is fine.

Background:

  • "suffering from poor health" ---> "in poor health", for brevity.
  • "another woman, Kristen Nefer and was" ---> "another woman, Kristen Nefer, and was" - Comma.
  • "'Devon get off my back'" - Does Brown include a comma after "Devon"? If not, I would add one, per MOS:QUOTE.
  • "the show along with three others were" ---> "the show, along with three others, was"
  • "her boss, actor George Lazenby and" ---> "her boss, actor George Lazenby, and"
  • "record producer Alan Douglas discussing" ---> "record producer Alan Douglas, discussing"
  • "Hendrix friend, Sharon Lawrence" ---> "Hendrix's friend Sharon Lawrence"

Final hours:

  • "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they left" ---> "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left" - If "by " terminology is used, the past perfect is called for.
  • "to a Chelsea antiques market where Hendrix purchased more clothing" ---> "to a Chelsea antiques market, where Hendrix purchased more clothing" - Comma.
  • "Later, Dannemann and Hendrix were invited by Phillip Harvey, the son of an English lord, to tea; they accepted." ---> "Later, Phillip Harvey, the son of an English lord, invited Dannemann and Hendrix to tea; they accepted." - Active voice. I don't mind, but others will. You might also try to find out what title Harvey's father held, as "Lord" is a form of address and not a formal office.
  • Fixed. The sources say that Harvey was the son of an English lord and he was concerned because of his father's "position", which would seem formal. GabeMc 09:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Most likely Phillip's father was a Baron. I'm looking into it right now and will get back to you if I find anything. Otherwise it would probably be best to change "lord" to "nobleman", as "lord" is very rarely used outside formal terms of address. (As per this article, it is "a generic term to denote members of the peerage".) Evanh2008  09:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Prior to their arrival at Harvey's they" ---> "Prior to their arrival at Harvey's, they"
  • The sentence on Harvey's affidavit is a little confusing. If he remained silent until 1995, what is he doing swearing an affidavit in '94? Or have I read that wrong?
  • "In his statement he claims" ---> "In his statement, he claims"
  • The word "also" in "to have also been mildly" doesn't seem necessary.
  • "Sometime after returning to the apartment Hendrix" ---> "Sometime after returning to the apartment, Hendrix"

Post-mortem examination and burial

  • "Dannemann later claimed that Hendrix, unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills. Intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments, nine tablets of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." needs to be changed to "Dannemann later claimed that Hendrix, unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills, which were intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments. Nine tablets of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." A participle has been confused somewhere along the line here.

Inconsistencies:

  • "We went to sleep about 7 a.m.." I think an extra full stop has crept in there. Ending it with one full stop is just fine, even if that full stop is also part of an abbreviation.
  • "When I woke up at eleven his face" ---> "When I woke up at eleven, his face" - MOS:QUOTE

Scotland Yard inquiry and allegations of murder:

  • "re-open" ---> "reopen"
  • "The investigation eventually proved inconclusive when in 1993, Attorney General" ---> "The investigation eventually proved inconclusive in 1993, when Attorney General"
  • The paragraph on Wright's book needs some work. The claim that Jeffery held insurance on Hendrix isn't mentioned until its rebuttal, so it should probably be introduced prior to that. I'm not sure the bit on Trixie Sullivan's statement belongs here, as it doesn't appear to be directly connected to accusations of wrongdoing against Jeffery. Maybe find a place for it up in the Final hours section?

Final lyrics:

  • "Dannemann phoned Eric Burdon frantically complaining that she could not wake Hendrix up." ---> "Dannemann phoned Eric Burdon, frantically complaining that she could not wake Hendrix." - Comma. Also, don't end a sentence with a preposition; "wake Hendrix" works well enough.
  • Why isn't "a woman, she claimed his name" italicised?

Very small issues. Once these are resolved, I'll give it another look and will most likely be ready to support. Great job so far! Evanh2008  08:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to provide your helpful review. I believe I've now resolved your above concerns. Please let me know if you catch anything else. GabeMc 09:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the speedy response! I'll have some further input shortly. Looks good. Evanh2008  09:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, notwithstanding one minor issue mentioned above. Feel free to archive resolved comments to talk or elsewhere if it begins to clutter the page. Evanh2008  09:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by Sarastro1

Oppose: I notice that most comments have been on prose so far. While there are problems with the prose, I think that this article has more troublesome issues. The lead is not great, but the whole article seems to be missing important information and, perhaps more importantly, explanation of and commentary on events. I know bits and pieces about this topic, but I'm far from an expert; even so, there seem to be several important missing pieces. I've commented on the lead and left some other general comments. This oppose is not set in stone, and I would like to see this featured, but I think a lot of work could be needed. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to comment. As far as "the whole article seems to be missing important information", can you please be more specific. I own 25+ books on Hendrix, so I could find any important information, but I have no idea what you think is currently missing. GabeMc 21:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Lead:

  • I'm not a fan of a one-sentence opening paragraph in the lead.
  • "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix had been fatigued and in poor health, due in part to severe exhaustion caused by overworking, a chronic lack of sleep and a persistent case of influenza. Insecurities about his personal relationships and frustration with the music industry had contributed to a fragile mental state.": This is all quite clunky, and could be simplified and streamlined. E.g. "In the days leading up to his death…". We have "fatigued … due to exhaustion" (!) and several parts where the relationship between events is unclear. Was the severe exhaustion caused by overworking AND a chronic lack of sleep (third repetition of tiredness here, as well) or was the fatigue and poor health caused by exhaustion AND a chronic lack of sleep.
  • "Though the details of his final hours and death are disputed, Hendrix spent much of his last day with Monika Dannemann, socializing with friends.": The comma after Danneman is odd here, but I'd suggest that "socializing with friends" is unnecessary.
  • "He awoke late on the morning of September 17 at her flat in the Samarkand Hotel, 22 Lansdowne Crescent, Notting Hill and was pronounced dead at St Mary Abbot's Hospital, Kensington, approximately 24 hours later.": I'm really struggling to see what is going on here. On my first reading, I though this meant that he awoke dead at her flat. Then I read it that he spent the whole of his final day at the flat. But this wasn't the case and I doubt that the most significant thing he did on his last day was wake up. This is an odd way to lead into the events.
  • "Intended to be taken in one-half tablet": "One" seems redundant.
  • "unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills. Intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments, nine whole tabs of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." For the lead, this is really over-emphasising that he took too many of a powerful sleeping pill. Way too much detail. And this rather presumes the cause of death, which I understand is under some dispute.
  • The cause of his death was absolutely the sleeping tabs, its the circumstances surrounding the event that are debated, not that he overdosed on Vesparax. GabeMc 21:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Right, the death certificate states: "Cause of Death: Inhalation of vomit, barbiturate intoxication." So yes, technically he died from asphyxia, and not a drug-overdose per se, though Teare concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed on Vesparax, which caused the vomitting, which lead to the asphyxia. GabeMc 23:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The lead is rather sparse on other details. Most readers who come here will, I suspect, be looking for confirmation or refutation of conspiracy theories. Yet the lead does not really go into any of these details other than "Though the details of his final hours and death are disputed". The only events given in the lead are that he woke up and that he died. The lead is not summarising the article as no mention is given to the inconsistencies or the inquiries. And that the coroner (why "the post-mortem inquisitor"? The post is called the coroner) recorded an open verdict is left out in favour of "concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed" which even the main body does not say. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, but above you just said the lead had "Way too much detail" regarding the cause of death. Also, FTR, per your above comment: "which even the main body does not say", the article states: "He found no evidence of violence or suicide and concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed", and it did so before your review. GabeMc 21:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

General points: I've only dipped into parts of the remainder, but here are some initial thoughts and suggestions.

  • The prose is lumpy and quite poor in parts. Some examples only (not an exhaustive list):
    • "During the week preceding his death, he was stressed by two pending lawsuits": Why "preceding"? "Stressed" is not encyclopaedic.
    • "he was infrequently examined by doctors": What? They rarely examined him? Why make this point? Or does this mean "occasionally" examined by doctors?
    • "Routinely surrounded by dozens of hangers-on and lacking close, trusting relationships, his insecurities about the future and frustration with the music industry contributed to a fragile mental state.": Why is "hangers-on" (which is also unencyclopedic) linked? I doubt that this was an issue solely in the lead-up to his death, which the other factors presumably were.
  • Why do we have a whole paragraph on his press interview in the background?
  • And the background seems long generally. Why all the detail about Nefer?
  • The background sections never says who Danneman is, and gives none of her background with Hendrix.
  • The background really should have more about Hendrix' drug-use as this would seem to be more relevant to his death than some of the other details here. On a more general level, the whole background sections seems to be tacked on, and quite random in its content.
  • The whole "last day" seems rushed and flits from one thing to another without suggesting a coherent narrative or offering explanations. While I'm far from an expert on Hendrix, I know that the version presented here is slightly one-sided. Devon Wilson played a rather larger part in events than is suggested here. She was not exactly an ex, and she was in London only because he was. And the version of the party seems to be mainly Danneman's version.
    • If "Devon Wilson played a rather larger part in events than is suggested here", then the sources I own do not support this. Again, I've read 25+ books in preparation for this FAC, and none of them implicate Devon as being partly responsible, as you seem to believe. Per: "the version of the party seems to be mainly Danneman's version", 1) that's nto accurate, the account given in the article is based much more on Harvey's statement then Dannemann's. Also, only two people ever gave statements regarding the party, Harvey and Dannemann. GabeMc 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • To clarify, the only "source" that I am aware of that casts any aspirations on Devon Wilson in regard to her behaviour that night is Dannemann, the least reliable source possible for information about Jimi's other girlfriends. To address this point further would seem to open the door for more issues related to your below concern: "Lots of things are hinted at, but not explained". GabeMc 23:36, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The state of his relationships with the various women at this point could perhaps be made clearer.
  • Hendrix had lots of girlfriends, he was promiscuous, but few, if any of these girlfriends were in a relationship with Hendrix in the traditional sense. GabeMc 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Lots of things are hinted at, but not explained. Danneman's inconsistencies are pointed out but there is no further comment. There is a section about murder allegations, but it never states who is alleged to have murdered him. The implication is Danneman, but it is never explicitly said, and as I understand it, there are a few other candidates for a potential murderer.
  • Per: "it never states who is alleged to have murdered him", Wright only claimed that Hendrix's manager, Mike Jeffery, admitted to him that he had Hendrix killed, Wright does not say who killed him. Anyway, the story is absolute baseless rubbish and deserves no more attention then this IMO. How could I comment further on Dannemann's inconsistencies and not run afoul of WP:OR? No judgement has been made and this case will never be fully solved. Only two people know for certain what happened that night, and both of them are now long dead. GabeMc 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not seeing anything important that isn't already covered in Brown, Tony (1997). Jimi Hendrix: The Final Days. Omnibus Press. ISBN 978-0-7119-5238-6, which David Comfort lists as a source for his book. Also, looking at Comfort's bibliography I see that I own (and have read) every book he used as a source. GabeMc 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Reply: OK, I've struck the oppose and I'm going to pull out of this one. I'm never a huge fan of the "I've read 25+ books argument", and I can only address what you present here, not what else you have read. I can't provide enough evidence either way for what should or should not be included; certainly not from reliable sources. I'm not convinced that this article is comprehensive enough, but I admittedly do not know enough about the source material to oppose (or support). I suspect that this article will disappoint any readers who come this way, though, even if what they may be looking for confirmation or refutation of "is absolute baseless rubbish and deserves no more attention then this IMO" (I hope the sources support your opinion!). I maintain that things are not fully explained though: the last day in the main body is surprisingly sparse on explanations, and we still have no suspect for the murder allegations, which looks odd. And the prose needs a polish. But I am not opposing, and won't be revisiting. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

1) There was never a murder suspect named, so there is no way to include a name here unless I make one up. 2) the sources absolutely support my assertion that the murder allegations are "absolute baseless rubbish", 3) How can I explain the unexplainable? The story of Hendrix's death is shrouded in mystery, thus if things don't always seem to add up, its likely because sometimes they don't. 4) What specifically do you think needs further explication? 5) FTR, all I meant by "I own 25+ books", is that I could surely find any important datum that is also verifiable in the reliable sources if you would be more specific. "The whole article seems to be missing important information" is not an actionable objection without some specific suggestions. That's all I meant, not that I remember absolutely everything I read, just that I have at my disposal a large library of books from which to glean information about this subject. GabeMc 23:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Image review

There are images of his gravesite on the internet. It resembles a sculpture or work of art, and so, as far as I am aware, a photograph of it probably is not permitted on the wiki on copyright grounds, because there is no freedom of panorama in USA. Snowman (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Cassianto

Generally agreeable stuff. Here are my thoughts...

Lede
  • Do we need to be told what country London is in? Also, do we need to link London?
  • "Depressed mood" - Why do we mention mood? Depression would be the medically correct term to use. "Mood" seems a little redundant.
  • *Hang on*, depression means mood in this context. I wasn't exactly thinking of this or this. Why do we need to dumb down? Further to that, the lead states "Insecurities about his personal relationships and frustration with the music industry had also contributed to his depression." I would suggest that if Hendrix suffered a series of depressive moods, then depression would be correct here. -- Cassianto 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • We have yet to establish if Hendrix suffered a series of depressed moods. If so, this would be indicative of depression. GabeMc, could you elaborate please? -- Cassianto ,
  • Samarkand Hotel can do without the link. This does not help the reader to this article and is just another link off the article onto another. We want to keep the reader not loose them by way of an unnecessary link.
I see nothing wrong with a link to another Wiki article. The location of the hotel could be interesting to many UK readers. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Sure, why not link hotel too; this could also be interesting right? Why on earth do we need to provide a geographical link, derived simply from the hotels name, just because Hendrix stayed there. Those clicking on to this article want to find out about Hendrix' death, so want the salient facts and links that help to understand it, not be tempted off onto a completely unrelated article. The point here is to capture the reader and make them want to stay, not tempt them away. As far as this article reads, he never even went to Uzbekistan, so why produce an unnecessary link? -- Cassianto 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Dannemann called for an ambulance. He was lifeless on arrival at St Mary Abbot's Hospital." -- Firstly, could we combine these two sentences as it reads a little uncomfortably. Second, was he dead on arrival to hospital? Is this what "lifeless" means? If he was dead, please say he was dead. Lifeless could be assumed to be unconscious.
Hang on. Some things are uncertain. As far as I am aware, there is conflicting views where and when he actually died, so it may be presumptive to say that he arrived at the hospital dead. The doctors at the hospital tried to resuscitate him, and I presume that they would not work on a dead body. What are the facts? "Lifeless" is an undiagnosed state and he was later certified dead. I had used the word "lifeless" intentionally. Sometimes a deep coma can give the outward impression of being dead unless examined very carefully. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Firstly, dead is a neutral word. Secondly, you won't get a doctor saying "It's OK nurse, put him over there he is lifeless. I will pronounce him dead later". We only need to mention the fact he died, not what kind of un diagnosed state he was in. Thirdly, I don't think you will find many people splitting hairs, wanting to know what road it was the ambulance was driving past at the time of JH's last breath. The salient fact is that he died. Wheather it be on the way or whilst at, hospital. I summed up at the end of my review that the article was in danger of producing too much excessive detail; I consider your preferred description of in between life and death to be just that I'm afraid. -- Cassianto 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • No. Where Hendrix died is critical to various peoples accounts of the story. I think that being precise about where and when he died is being presumptive and tends to prejudice various peoples accounts. Snowman (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Why does his death location matter? The fact he was pronounced dead is notable. Having seen this reliable source, it appears he may have died in hospital upon in an attempt to resuscitate. Could we not skip the "lifeless" remark, and cut to the chase? "Hendrix was taken to hospital where an attempt was made to resuscitate him; he was pronounced dead at..." -- Cassianto 19:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, I think that something like you said or like this would be fine; "An ambulance took Hendrix to hospital, where an attempt was made to resuscitate him and then he was pronounced dead at...". In UK a doctors might say "flat", "unconscious", "in a coma", or "collapsed", but some if this is jargon, so I suggested "lifeless". I agree with you that "lifeless" can be improved. Snowman (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

GabeMc, could you construct this based on this resolution? -- Cassianto 21:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  • "tabs" - short for tablet, right? Why have we shortened an already short word here?
Background

"During the week before his death, he was dealing with two pending lawsuits, one a paternity case and the other a recording contract dispute that was due to be heard by a UK High Court the following week. He also wanted to leave his manager, Michael Jeffery". -- I can see how two lawsuits could help tip a fragile mind over the edge (if suicide was suspected of course), but wanting to leave a manager? It's placement here looks as if Hendrix was troubled by this desire to leave his manager. If he was troubled, could we say so?

  • "Depressive mood" again. Not for one moment was I thinking of any disambiguated alternatives. Depression would suffice.
Hang on. As above, a depressed mood and depression are different and not can not be assumed to be the other. The article must stick to what it said in the sources. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Hang on, as per above. Be careful in prompting someone to "stick to what it said in the sources"; a slight variation is always preferred to prevent this. I should very much doubt that the source means this. GabeMc, was Hendrix known for successive episodes of depressed moods? -- Cassianto 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course, text form sources should not be copied directly into Wiki articles. To prevent further misunderstanding I would like to make it clear that all text in the article about Hendrix's health should be written in keeping with the principals of the Wiki, be sourced from a reliable sources, and be verifiable. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Assuming the source says "Hendrix suffered a depressive mood", then there really is nowhere to go with altering to satisfy the close paraphrasing. That is why I would suggest swapping depressed mood for depression or something similar. I take your point that a depressed mood is a singular form and would suggest an isolated instance of being particularly pissed off. I would be happy to relent if it were proven that this was an isolated instance. However, a series of these would suggest something more underlining and I would elect to say depression so it covers all. -- Cassianto 21:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course, we can write "depressed mood" in the article, if the source says "depressed mood", because the two words are commonly used together and so no hint of a copyright violation occurs. I assure you that we have to be cautious and careful with any diagnosis that might be relevant here. Please note that a depressed mood is not the same as clinical depression. Erudite comments welcome. Snowman (talk) 21:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
The sources do not support any type of clinical diagnosis of depression, so I've removed the datum as inaccurate and/or unverifiable. GabeMc 22:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Fine. Snowman (talk) 23:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the phrase "i feel depressed" is over used as a self-diagnosis if one is having a particularly bad day. I have heard this on many occasions. However, I have never heard of anyone saying "I feel depressed mood". I feel the parenthesis of "mood" is used to differentiate for the benefit of disambiguation purposes. Nevertheless, it appears to have all been ironed out now. -- Cassianto 23:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  • OVERLINK to London.
  • "On September 11, 1970, Hendrix gave his final interview. In his suite at the Cumberland Hotel in London, he talked with journalist Keith Altham of the Record Mirror." -- Why the period after interview? I would phrase this "On September 11, 1970, Hendrix gave his final interview in his suite at the Cumberland Hotel in London, where he talked with Keith Altham, a journalist for the Record Mirror."
  • During the interview, Hendrix confirmed reports that bass player Billy Cox was leaving Hendrix's band." -- Obvious question, what were the band called?
  • Hendrix confidante Sharon Lawrence..." She may well have been, but who was she? Friend? Girlfriend?
  • OK, but we go onto say "Later that afternoon, another girlfriend, Monika Dannemann..." which would suggest Lawrence was a girlfriend as we speak of no other female between Lawrence and Dannemann? -- Cassianto 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Inappropriate link to Samarkand again. It plays no part in helping to understand the subject matter.
  • the Animals should be The Animals.
  • "The following day, Hendrix received a phone call from one of his girlfriends, Devon Wilson. She heard rumours that he was dating another woman, Kristen Nefer, and was jealous." -- "The following day, Hendrix received a phone call from one of his girlfriends, Devon Wilson who had become jealous after hearing rumours that he was dating another woman, Kristen Nefer."
  • "Hendrix spent most of the early afternoon and evening of September 14 with record producer Alan Douglas, discussing his career plans." -- Whose career plans? Douglas or Hendrix?
  • "In the early morning hours of September 15, he accompanied Douglas, who was returning to New York, to London's Heathrow Airport." --suggest-- "In the early morning hours of September 15, he accompanied Douglas to London's Heathrow Airport, who was returning to New York."
  • "Hendrix confidante Sharon Lawrence was in London, and she spoke with him that day. -- Redundant use of "she".
Morning and early afternoon
  • OVERLINK to Dannemann
  • "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left the apartment on their way to a bank and then to Kennington Market..." -- "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left the apartment to use a bank and then followed onto Kennington Market, where..."
  • What are "specialty shoes"?
  • "...who invited Hendrix to a party taking place later that night." Copy editing needed. Perhaps, "...who invited Hendrix to a party that evening".
  • "Dannemann reportedly acted jealous -- jealous is a state of mind and one cannot act so. "Dannemann reportedly became jealous" would be more accurate.
  • " Phillip Harvey, the son of an English nobleman..." -- His lineage is redundant. The fact he was a son of a nobleman has, as far as I can see, no relevance to this at all.
  • This is important to the point made in "Late afternoon and evening": "Harvey, who had remained silent about the incident out of respect for his father, gave a sworn affidavit after his father's death in 1994."
  • Could we not mention the fact he was an English nobleman nearer to that then? "Harvey, who had remained silent about the incident out of respect for his English nobleman father..." It has more of a use there than its current position. -- Cassianto 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "...asking him to find a way out of his contracts with his manager Mike Jeffery." Also, why the plural of contract? How many did he have with Jeffery?
  • "...holding a favorite Fender Stratocaster guitar that he called the 'black beauty'" -- "a favourite" or his favourite?
  • "Dannemann reportedly became jealous..." -- Suggest removing "reportedly" as per WP:WEASEL.
Late afternoon and evening
  • "...asked Hendrix and Dannemann to quiet down" -- quieten down.
  • "Harvey, who remained silent about the incident until out of respect for his father..." -- typo I believe of "until".
  • Some may question as to what an affidavit is. Link?
  • "According to Harvey, Dannemann screamed at Hendrix 'at the top of her voice'..." I would do away with this quote. You don't scream quietly do you? This could be incorporated into the text, or better still, be left out altogether.
  • "...before leaving with Dannemann by 10:40 p.m." At 10:40 p.m. would be more accurate.
  • "After stopping at the Cumberland, Hendrix and Dannemann followed Harvey to his luxurious apartment..." -- Did Hendrix and Dannemann go with him? "followed" suggests they did just that without Harvey knowing. Suggest, accompanied if he knew of their company on the way to the flat.
  • "Harvey and two of Harvey's female companions..." -- Repetition of Harvey; I think we could get away with "his" here.
  • "Dannemann claimed to have then prepared a meal for them at her apartment around 11 p.m., when they shared a bottle of wine." -- "Dannemann claimed to have then prepared a meal for them at her apartment around 11 p.m. and shared a bottle of wine.
After midnight
  • "According to guest Angie Burdon, the estranged wife of Eric Burdon of the Animals..." -- Where was Burdon a guest, at Kameron's residence or the party? If its the latter, we havent arrived there yet.
  • Unless I'm missing something, this looks fine to me. "Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him to the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron. While there, Hendrix ... According to guest Angie Burdon".
  • We say: "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, wanting to attend the party Wilson had invited him to earlier, Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him to the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron. While there, Hendrix complained to him about business problems, ate some food, and took at least one amphetamine tablet. Approximately 30 minutes later, Dannemann rang the intercom and said she was there to pick him up. Another guest, Stella Douglas, respectfully asked her to return later, which she soon did. According to guest Angie Burdon, the estranged wife of Eric Burdon of the Animals, when Danneman came back, Douglas used an assertive approach with her to the point of being impolite." -- A suggestion is made that he wants to go to a party at the start of the text. We then say he drives to Kameron's house. His attendance at Kameron's house, sounds like it is an unscheduled stop on the way to the party. Is this where the party was? We then go on to call Burdon a guest. Currently, this would suggest that she was a guest at Kameron's house, where I suspect she was a guest at the party. This suspicion makes the whole paragraph confusing. I think we either need to say that Hendrix left Kameron's house and arrived at the party where "...guest Angela Burdon said..." Or, if the party was at Kameron's house, then we need to call it the venue of the party. Sorry, does that make sense? -- Cassianto 05:47, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, wanting to attend the party that Wilson had invited him to earlier at the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron, Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him there." -- Seems a bit clunky, suggest: "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, Dannemann drove Hendrix to a party hosted by Pete Kameron, an acquaintance and business associate of Wilson."
  • "...Stella Douglas, respectfully asked her to return later, which she soon did." -- Redundant use of "soon", unless she returned earlier than expected. "Soon" also sounds as if it is real time. I would use "which she did a little while later."
Post-mortem examination and burial
  • OVERLINK of Washington.

Everything after this looks OK. I will look again tomorrow, but for now this is all I have to offer. If I was to be ultra critical, I would say that there is a bit too much trivial detail in places, like observing the fact that he had a Chinese meal and enjoyed cups of tea in the garden, but this is only minor; I like detail generally. Feel free to discuss any of these at any point. -- Cassianto 23:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I've trimmed out that the meal was Chinese food as excess detail. I think the tea datum is somewhat important, as he is seen with the tea set in the final photos. I don't feel too strongly about it though, so if you think the article would read better without it, I will certainly remove the point. Thanks for your kind, helpful, and insightful comments. The article is much improved due to your effort. GabeMc 02:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
No, I now think the cup of tea is relevent based on the photo. Sorry, I missed that. Answering points only at this juncture you understand, I will take another read through later :-) -- Cassianto 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I really appreciate your comments, thanks! GabeMc 06:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that the meal was a Chinese food is a detail that does not need to be removed. I think that small details can help to set the scene. His stomach contents may have been important to his vomiting, which is discussed. Snowman (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
LOL, you are joking right? How is naming a type of food which he had for dinner encyclopaedic? He could have had a custard cream that day and choked on the digested result. Will we be mentioning that too? Are you seriously suggesting we find out that days diet on the off chance that this brought on the vomiting? Did he have an intolerance to Chinese food? If not, may I suggest we leave the conspiracy theories out? -- Cassianto 20:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Are you going off on a tangent here? Snowman (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

May I suggest taking this to the talk page and keep this FAC squabble free? -- Cassianto 20:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

To answer your questions: I am not joking about keeping the Chinese meal in the article. I think that what he ate in the last 12 hours of his life is significant and encyclopaedic. I am not suggesting that the meal caused vomiting. I am not sure if he had an allergy nor not, but I have not seen it written down that he had, so I think that it is very unlikely that he had a Chinese food allergy. This has got nothing to do with conspiracy theories that I am aware off, so I am puzzled why you raised that point. I would guess that he was not off his food that day. Snowman (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
"I am not suggesting that the meal caused vomiting." *cough* "His stomach contents may have been important to his vomiting." If you are no longer suggesting this, then I resume my initial point that this is redundant information. We do we need to know the contents of his stomach before death, unless it was a primary factor in his demise. None of this articles peers, give this kind of information on the run up to the death. -- Cassianto 21:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
To simplify it, I would say that stomach contents and vomiting are associated. The stomach contents may not be the cause of vomiting. Of course, his stomach contents is important and relevant, because he died with vomit in his airways. Snowman (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
If the stomach contents are not the cause of vomiting, then why on earth are we listing what kind of food he had eaten earlier that day? This is redundant. Please see talk page. -- Cassianto 22:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Rice was found in his stomach at post-mortem, so his Chinese meal is relevant and should be included. Snowman (talk) 13:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Please format this conversation correctly Snowman. You don't need to put so many space markers at the start of your text as I have to keep outdenting. Right, your insistence here is unintelligable. A lot of countries have rice as a staple diet. Why are we mentioning Chinese specifically? -- Cassianto 15:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Support – per the above resolved comments. The article is comprehensive but not discursive and meets all of the FA criteria. The documentation is thorough and wide ranging and the prose is good. A fine article which I am very pleased to add my support to. Well done! -- Cassianto 22:35, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by Snowmanradio

Why was this removed? It says he laughed, which gives a little insight into his mood. Do depressed people laugh? Snowman (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Do happy people cry? Do sad people smile? It's not beyond any physical capability to do both. -- Cassianto 20:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Being cheerful is not a feature that depressed adults generally show in abundance. I think that the conversation should be kept in. More opinions welcome. Snowman (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
From what I can tell it says nothing about there being an abundance. You don't need to be cheerful to express a smile or laugh. It depends on the situation. -- Cassianto 21:04, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep in mind that Hendrix was to some extent "performing" when he gave interviews, so if he seemed upbeat with that laugh, it might have had something to do with protecting his professional image. FWIW, I've read the entire transcript of the interview and in general, Hendrix does not seem abundantly happy or optimistic. If anything, he comes across as quite tired of the music business in general and mentally and physically exhausted (which he was by almost all acounts). FTR, this analysis of his final interview is my own WP:OR, and nothing of verifiable substance that should be added to the article. GabeMc 23:15, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Why was this removed? It seems to show at least one unstable relationship. Snowman (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Provisional impression: I am concerned that the article may not be neutral and has become somewhat presumptive in places. The infobox image of the hotel tends to suggest that there is no doubt that he died at the hotel, which tends to prejudice Dannerman's account. This impression in the infobox may be corrected by a more suitable caption, removing the image, or replacing the image with something else. Where did "depressed mood" come from? Why was "depressed mood" changed to a diagnosis of depression? Why is Dannerman's account frequently followed by someone or something contradicting her in the inconsistencies section? Surely, the events would have been unforgettable to her and she gave an statement to a policeman at 4 pm on 18 September on the day of the tragic events. Can the inconsistencies be interpreted? "... paramedics who responded to the call show that they found Hendrix alone in the flat", so who let them in? Did Hendrix have a diagnosis of depression? if so, then why is it not on the death certificate. I recall a UK TV program on the topic and Dannerman was interviewed, so if it can be sourced it might be helpful. Snowman (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  • 1) "The infobox image of the hotel tends to suggest that there is no doubt that he died at the hotel". While there is some dispute regarding where his official place of death was, according to Ian Smith, one of two police officers who responded to the emergency call at around 11:30 a.m.: "The ambulance men were there, but Jimi was dead ... There was really nothing they could do for him." Also, ambulance crew member Reg Jones later commented: "We felt his pulse ... showed a light in his eyes. But there was no response at all." Trouble is, the police nor the ambulance crew can officially pronounce someone dead. However, Dr Bannister later commented: "On admission he was obviously dead. He had no pulse, no heartbeat, and the attempt to resuscitate him was merely a formality." I think I originally stated that he was unconscious when transported to St Mary's were he was pronounced dead at 12:45 pm, this has now been removed by someone other than myself. 2) Per: "why is Dannerman's account frequently followed by someone or something contradicting her", because according to the sources, she changed her story nearly every time she told it, right through to 1996 when she was in contact with Tony Brown (who had known her since 1980). 3) Per, "... paramedics who responded to the call show that they found Hendrix alone in the flat", so who let them in? The flat was unlocked, they let themselves in. I'll explicate this further in the article. 4) As far as Hendrix being diagnosed with depression, no, not to my knowledge, I've now removed this as inaccurate and/or unverifiable. 5) Per: "I recall a UK TV program on the topic and Dannerman was interviewed, so if it can be sourced it might be helpful." Again, Dannemann's account changed regularly (almost every time she told it), right through to her death in 1996, so everything she said must be taken with a rather large grain of suspicion. GabeMc 21:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
If there are reliable sources for any of that, then perhaps some of it could be added to the article to make it more understandable. Note that pulse can be thready, breathing can be shallow, and pupils fixed in massive barb od. In my opinion, it can be difficult to differentiate between massive barb od, brain death, and a perhaps recent death. As far as I am aware, it is not a formality to try to resuscitate every dead body that arrives in casualty; however, I think that it would be a duty and an obligation to attempt a resuscitation when not entirely certain about a death, especially on a young person. If officials were convinced that JH was dead in the hotel, then would an alternative course of action have been for a policeman or an ambulance man to call a dr (perhaps a police surgeon) to the hotel to certify death and then JH's body could have been taken to a mortuary? Snowman (talk) 22:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments Snowman. 1) Per: "If there are reliable sources for any of that ...", I assume you mean something like this. 2) Per: "Note that pulse can be thready, breathing can be shallow, and pupils fixed in massive barb od. In my opinion, it can be difficult to differentiate between massive barb od, brain death, and a perhaps recent death." According to Reg Jones, Hendrix's bowels and bladder had already released and much of the vomit was dry, indicating that he had died before the ambulance arrived at the Samarkand. I could add more detail to that effect if you think its helpful, but I was trying to avoid too much detail about vomit, urine and feces, but perhaps its needed. What do you think? GabeMc 23:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
As long as the observers are reliable, then that is just the sort of information that would be helpful. Dry vomit could indicate the time when he vomited. I have never heard of the empting of bladder or bowels after death, but if it is said to have happened then it might be significant of something. Snowman (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Details added. For the empting of the bladder and bowels post-mortem, please see here. Reg Jones said "all that goes when you're dead."(Brown, 1997, p.136) GabeMc 23:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "He discovered a partially collapsed left lung and 400 ml of fluid in Hendrix's chest". That is interesting. What did the pathologist make of that? What colour was the fluid? Is there any microbiology of the fluid or histopathology of the lung? I am not sure where this will lead, so it might or might not be relevant to FA. Snowman (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, Teare did not offer any conclusions regarding the cause of the lung collapse or the presence of fluid, nor did he indicate the color of the fluid or analyze its chemical contents (I own transcripts and facsimiles of the documents). GabeMc 22:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Nevertheless, it does sound significant to me, but it is clearly not the cause of death. I think his post-mortem findings do have a place in the article. Did the coroner ask anything questions about the collapsed lung, pleural effusion, or heart? Was anything said about which chambers were enlarged on the right side of the heart? I wonder if the right heart dilation and liver congestion could indicate pulmonary hypertension (and right heart failure) perhaps secondary to pulmonary pathology. A little atheroma would not be particularly unusual in someone of Hendrix's age. There are lots of causes of pulmonary effusion. All this is my speculation, which can not be included in the article. Can you interpret the post mortem findings? Snowman (talk) 23:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Both Teare's and Thurston's post-mortem findings suffer from an utter lack of conclusions (other than cause of death). They only state facts and do not speculate, at all. I've included the details I found interesting, but as far as interpretations, your guess is as good as mine. Do you think I should remove the bit about atheroma as inconsequential? GabeMc 23:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • A little atheroma in the coronary arteries is not significant at his age, but obviously the pathologist had to look and state that there was not a blockage there. You could probably omit the atheroma and let it be assumed that, if he an MI, then it would be clearly recorded. It seems to me that he had something else wrong with him in life owing to the 400ml pleural effusion, which I think is significant. This would show up on a chest X-ray and would lead him to have hospital investigations. What other abnormalities were noticed at post-mortem? If you can not understand anything written in the post-mortem report, then note the problems here and will look at it. I would hope to understand a post-mortem report on an adult including reading between the lines to see what the pathologist was thinking. Obviously, the pathologist sent blood for barbiturate levels; nevertheless, if samples were not taken for histopathology and microbiology, then a diagnosis for the pleural effusion and possible lung pathology may not be available. I suspect that you will not be able to improve on simply listing salient post-mortem abnormalities. Incidentally, where did you get a copy of the post-mortem report? Snowman (talk) 14:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I've now removed the bit about the atheroma. What I assume to be most of the post-mortem report is included in Tony Brown's book, but I have no way of knowing for certain what's not included. The book seems quite thoroughly researched, and its attention to detail is meticulous, so I doubt that much of interest was excluded. GabeMc 22:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "... persistent case of influenza."; can you give this more detail and perhaps more prominence? This sounds an unusual phrase, because influenza is usually an unpleasant illness lasting between one and two weeks only. A common complication is post-viral fatigue, which might be the cause of tiredness and lack of energy for several weeks or longer. However, in his case, I might associate the influenza history, the abnormalities in the lungs, and pleural effusion. Did he have any pain in his last weeks or days? Snowman (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • According to Brown, Hendrix was feeling the effects of a cold/flu as early as 27 August, and right through to his death. No particular pain was mentioned, although Jimi was known for not revealing those types of details. According to Brown, it was influenza, though I am sure that this is his own OR. A viral infection does indeed sound more likely, but there is no evidence of this that I am aware of. My guess is that, in their arrogance, after they concluded his cause of death they did not look further for any evidence of disease or infection. GabeMc 22:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Hopefully, this edit resolves the issue. GabeMc 07:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • When a pathologist has more than about three post-mortems to do in the morning and more office-related work in the afternoon, then there could be a tendency to concentrate on the major post-mortem findings. I do not think that any arrogance is involved, because pathologists are not known to be arrogant about their work in my opinion and will always double check and discuss findings. I think that doing post-mortems quickly and as efficiently as possible is a reflection of the work load. Of course, the forensic pathologist will go in to a lot of detail when a death is caused by suspected foul play, partly because the pathologist may have to face complex cross examination in courts. I suspect that JH's death was seen as a simple case of overdose at post-mortem. Personally speaking I am disappointed to hear that investigations of the pleural effusion and collapsed lung did not go further (as far as we know); however, I wonder if there are any more clues in the full post-mortem report. To explain the pleural effusion and his persistent "flu" related illness, I suspect that JH had "flu" that caused protracted lung disease and pleural effusion or made a pre-existing lung disease worse. As far as the article is concerned, can you put something like a "persistent illness assumed to be influenza related", if this is consistent with reliable sources. Snowman (talk) 11:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Perhaps "arrogance" was a poor word choice. All I meant was that once they viewed his death as "yet another" rock star drug OD, I doubt they felt the need to be more thorough. Also, at the time (1969–70) they dealt with ODs somewhat regularly according to Jones, so Jimi's death didn't seem all that extraordinary at the time. I'm particularly surprised that no attempt was made to determine the time of death, but my understanding is that even today, if its pre-rigor or during rigor, they have a decent chance of an accurate estimate, but post-rigor, ToD is nearly impossible to determine within an accuracy of 8–12 hours (please correct me if I am wrong about this), which would tell us nothing we didn't already know; Hendrix died sometime between 3 a.m. and 12:45 p.m. GabeMc 00:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • If he was already dead at the hotel, to estimate the time of death, I think that they would need to have made forensic observations on the body at the hotel and noted the ambient temperature there. Of course, the body would have been put in a fridge in a mortuary while awaiting post-mortem examination (from 18 to 21 September), so I think that estimating the time of death from the post-mortem examination any more accurately than indicated by the story would not have been realistic. If the body had been in a warm room for a day or two, then there would have been a degree of autolysis, which would be noticeable by microscopic examination of tissues. Snowman (talk) 12:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "20 mgs of amphetamine and cannabis"; please clarfy how much of each drug there was individually. Please give the drug concentration in terms of units of weight/volume. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Amounts clarified. Per: "give the drug concentration in terms of units of weight/volume", Teare estimates that Hendrix ingested 20 mgs of amphetamine and 20 mgs of cannabis that night. I've made this edit in an attempt to resolve your concern. I don't think I have the figures in a weight to volume ratio. Thanks again for all the great comments! GabeMc 02:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree, its vague. I put it in a note so that the reader wouldn't think the injury that caused the scar was recent, falsely impling a recent suicide attempt. The speculation is that Hendrix might have cut his wrist during the time he was struggling in New York, before coming to the UK in 1966, but that's all unverifiable heresay. GabeMc 00:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
  • In the "After midnight" section, there is nothing between the ambulance arriving at 11.27 am and leaving at 11.35 am. Even saying; "what happened and who was there is unclear", would be helpful, I think. Snowman (talk) 09:55, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not a copyvio expert, but the quoted lyrics are contained in the source, so I'm really quoting Hendrix via Shapiro and Glebbeek. Also, according to Misplaced Pages:Lyrics and poetry, this would seem to qualify as a legitimate fair use. "Quotations of the work within the analytical framework can fall into the fair use provisions within US copyright law". GabeMc 22:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Shapiro and Glebbeek might have had special permission to use certain material including the lyrics in their book. Perhaps, there is an acknowledgement to the Hendrix estate or something at the end of the book or in the preface. I hope that someone will help out with fair use of lyrics on the Wiki. It might need special demarcation as being fair use rather than the usual CC licence, if it is fair use. Do you need to made a case for far use (similar to a fair use image). I think that this will need attention. I expect that there are Wiki-guidelines that might support fair use here; however, Misplaced Pages:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources is one guideline that is not in favour of coping copyrighted text into articles. Snowman (talk) 12:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Teare "concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed." This sounds odd to me, so I would be grateful if you would double check the exact wording, because explaining a death in this detail is something that the coroner decides after collecting all the evidence including the post-mortem examination report. I think that the pathologist is probably more likely to write down that the post-mortem findings are "consistent with an accidental overdose" if he was to speculate on the cause of the barbiturate intoxication. I note that in this case the coroner opted for an open verdict and not an accidental death. Snowman (talk) 19:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Good catch. I removed the datum as a likely synth by secondary sources. I don't think Teare made any judgements about Hendrix's intentions. GabeMc 21:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Provisional impression (2). I think that the article has improved a lot. I find it interesting to read, despite its very sad story. I think that the medical aspects are much more understandable. I think that key words and phrases are appropriate for an event that happened in London. I am optimistic, partly because I think that the nominator has been open minded, kept on task, and has maintained a friendly atmosphere, which would be welcoming for more reviewers, who might be thinking about making comments here. Snowman (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Heading "Aftermath". This is a new section. Is there a better heading title? I know what you mean, but for me it is not a word commonly used for the time after someone has died. It is usually used after a battle or a storm. It is also a Rolling Stones LP. What about a heading title "In the media" or something like that for the news stories. Snowman (talk) 09:56, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Provisional impression (3). I have edited parts of the article, so I have a conflict of interest in reviewing the article; nevertheless, I have tried to be objective. As far as I am aware, the article has a good summary of the available sources on medical issues. I have not thought about other parts of the article as carefully, including the important section on "Inconsistencies". I plan to move on and leave it to other reviewers to decide if the article can be promoted to FA status or not. Snowman (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Casliber

  • Comments - I read this on my phone while out and about today. The writing is good and prose is engaging. I couldn't see any prose clangers. Concerning the structure, it is generally good but I was unsure about how we have a chronological thread - and then an inconsistencies section, which I am wondering how it relates to para 2 of the After midnight section - if para 2 is assumed to be consensus as most likely version then it needs to be mentioned somewhere there....Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for taking a look, Casliber. Para 2 of the After midnight section is basically the "official" Hendrix family account, sourced to the most recent book published by Experience LLC and another high-quality source (Cross, 2005). How would I go about saying that it "is assumed to be consensus" while avoiding WP:OR? Also, TMK, a chronological thread need not continue throughout an entire article. The chronological portion ends at the conclusion of After midnight, I think that's fine, since the chronology ends with Hendrix's death. To riddle (read bog-down) the chronological portion of the article with mentions of the numerous inconsistencies would be a mistake, IMO. Any thoughts? GabeMc 20:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm confused, please forgive me. Are you asking me to preface that particular paragraph with: "According to Jimi Hendrix: An Illustrated Experience (2007), by authors Janie L. Hendrix and John McDermott, and Room Full of Mirrors: A Biography of Jimi Hendrix (2005) by Charles R. Cross ..."? Can you clarify what it is about that particular paragraph that needs in-line attribution to the authors? I've intentionally avoided using Dannemann's book as an unreliable primary source, so what is sourced about her accounts comes only from reliable secondary sources. Can you please clarify what the issue is and how you suggest I remedy it? Thanks again for your insightful comments. GabeMc 02:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, my issue is this - this para presents a version as if it were fact, and then further down we have some issues with Dannemann's inconsistencies. It is a bit disconnected and we sorta get ambushed by this new bit of info. It needs some encompassing statement. Ideally it'd be something stating it was the consensus version of the most likely train of events...actually re-reading it it is not as big an issue as I thought initially. The bits note where she claimed X, adn the most definite bits are in. I am wondering then if some teaser about her accounts being inconsistent here would be good, but I can see reasons for not putting it in too. Based on that I'd say it's not a deal-breaker so ..I support on comprehensiveness and prose. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support But I have some questions.
  • Should it be "at" or "in" her flat?
  • Isn't "one of the most influential guitarists of the 1960s" a bit of an understatement? His own article states "he is widely considered one of the most influential electric guitarists in the history of popular music, and one of the most important musicians of the 20th century."
  • Footnote 8 (about tuna) seems to be redundant, as the exact same text is also in the article itself.
  • It is made clear in "Late afternoon and evening" that Harvey is the son of an English nobleman, which was previously introduced earlier, in "Morning and early afternoon" at the first mention of Harvey, but was moved as a response to Cassianto's above review (see "Morning and early afternoon"). GabeMc 22:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi FunkMonk, yes the above is my doings I'm afraid. The nobleman information was a bit redundant in its former position, so I suggested it be moved to another section where his title had more relevance. His son was keen not to embarrass his highly influential father so the question would have been asked why?. Might I suggest an alternative introduction for his father if you want to press this point; failing that, it could be restored (it won't effect my support). I will leave it to you guys. -- Cassianto 22:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC) .

William Robinson Brown

Nominator(s): Montanabw 00:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a stable good article which has subsequently gone through additional upgrading with both formal and informal peer review. I believe it meets or exceeds the FA criteria. W.R. Brown was a very interesting individual who contributed significantly to the diverse fields of forestry and horse breeding. I have been the lead editor, though with substantial assistance from others, notably User:Churn and change, who helped me with a lot of cleanup and source locating, but has been inactive in recent months. It was passed for GA by none other than Malleus Fatuorum, who also did some copyediting. Thanks also to several other users for extra eyes, copyedits and helpful commentary. I have previously been part of a team on a number of FA article runs, notably for Appaloosa and Yogo sapphire, but this the first time I have taken the lead on a FAC, so please be patient if I have some awkwardness with the procedure. Montanabw 00:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Comments on this version of the article.
    Now supporting this article. Ed  23:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
    • What makes ref 47 reliable?
      I fixed the URL (not sure how all the stuff got stripped), but the actual ref is to the 1918 stud book, which is in hard copy and difficult to access. The URL is to a faithful reproduction from the original. Is this fix better now? --Montanabw
    • I don't know how reliable the inflationary numbers are after two economics editors on one of my FACs debated it; I ended up removing them. It may be worthwhile to ping Protonk (talk · contribs) or Fifelfoo (talk · contribs) to see if they are appropriate for this article.
      I'll see if I can do a more elegant fix. Basically, at a peer review, someone wanted a dollars/pounds conversion, but I realized that the conversion rate at the time would not have been the same as now, so I'm open to ways to do this better! --Montanabw
      Follow up: I have a version using measuring worth sitting in my sandbox if we need to swap out somthing, it's about 6K different, but it's as of 2010. In my case, I used the WP templates throughout, (Template:Inflation and layered it into Template:International dollars which claim to do all the calculations, which looks like you didn't have to option to do that in 2010, when your article was up. I hope that using the templates makes the calculations work, one of the template cites measuring worth. I could toss the USD calculations if that's the problematic bit. --Montanabw
      If I may butt in, my own view is that the {{inflation}} template is almost always best avoided unless we're talking about fairly recent conversions obviously related to the typical basket of goods, which 20 or so horses clearly isn't. So I've changed the conversion to a historic opportunity cost basis using the GDP deflator, which I think is more realistic. All cited and explained in a note. In general I think that when we provide conversions we should explain the basis for the calculation, another reason to avoid the {{inflation}} template. George Ponderevo (talk) 16:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
      I'm good with that, upon reflection, it sounds like we don't have a good way to actually translate the amount to modern US dollars (or international dollars) either, so I just tossed that bit, though if someone thinks that calculator provides good info, I can restore. The original change came because someone wanted a USD comparison, which appears to be more difficult than I thought. Montanabw 23:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
      I don't think it's so difficult; the tricky part is in deciding on what basis to do the inflation calculation. Why not do a conversion from sterling to US dollars for the 2011 equivalent amount of £138,000, which would make it $217,000? That would be about $10,000 a horse, but I've got no idea whether or not that's cheap, which is obviously the point you're trying to make. George Ponderevo (talk) 01:15, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      Hmm. That's the problem with averages: 10K today for a fine breeding stallion is cheap, but for a good saddle horse or a broodmare is on the high end, other than for top of the line. But Brown WAS after the top of the line. He got one outstanding stallion and a bunch of mares in the deal with Blunt. I ran across a thing (blog, not RS, but I suspect is accurate) that said the price he paid for one of the Egyptian mares was equal to what he paid for the whole lot he got from Blunt,so that helps me some. According to this site, at the end of WWI, an "officer's horse" (i.e. a nice trained saddle horse, probably a gelding) was going for about 75 pounds. 2727 pounds for 20 horses breaks out to about 136 pounds per horse, which is already more than the officer's charger. But I don't know how it ranked in the UK to, say, a champion racehorse or something, which might be the best comparison. In the states, Man O'War, a stud colt intended as a racehorse, sold as a yearling for $5000 in 1918 dollars, which was also considered a bargain, considering that he became one of the best racehorses of all time. So, do you think we have it accurate, given context? (I might ping Tigerboy on racehorse prices) Montanabw 17:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      Perhaps it would be best just to state the figures without comment, unless you can find a reliable source for that observation about the Egyptian mare, which would really put the price Brown paid for 20 horses into context. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      Right now, the text reads " he paid only £2727 for the entire lot." I think it can stand as is, with the "only" being verified in the article citation, and I can find several more sources to verify "only" as a low price in the eyes of Arabian breeder history scholars. I pinged Tigerboy1966 and he pointed me at some racehorse articles where horses, even then,s sold for over a thousand pounds (or guineas, why did they still use guineas in 1918??) each, so by that standard, these horses did sell cheap. I have the basic inflation conversion down in the footnote and as long as you are quite sure we should use opportunity cost and not retail price index (I crunched that in the sandbox and got "This amount would be £104,000 as of 2010, using the retail price index") I'm happy. Montanabw 22:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      We still use guineas today at horse sales, God knows why. I'm confident about using the historic opportunity cost in preference to CPI/RPI. George Ponderevo (talk) 23:04, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      Whatever you all decide is fine by me—I just wanted to draw attention to the issue. Ed  23:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Regarding the The North Adams, Massachusetts, Transcript and Portsmouth Herald, I don't think publishing locations are needed unless it needs to be dabbed (e.g., why the Times is cited as Times (London)). Ed  00:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
      Are you suggesting that I just remove the redundant "location" parameter or adjust paper titles? The papers themselves are named with their geographic name (The Portsmouth Herald, North Adams Transcript). Does that make a difference? This shouldn't be a difficult fix, just let me know how I should do this --Montanabw
      I've removed the two redundant "|location=" parameters. George Ponderevo (talk) 16:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
      Groovy Montanabw 00:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
      Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks, Ed  23:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (PD-US-not renewed, PD-1923). Sources and authors provided (tweaked 1 tag to be more specific). GermanJoe (talk) 08:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments - date formatting inconsistent (several different formats in footnotes), spacing on Forbis publisher, remount service linked twice in same sentence, not sure why there's a page number in Bibliography. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:08, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

All fixed I think. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:23, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. We're just doing some minor fiddling around the edges while we await further review!  ;-) Montanabw 22:54, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments –

  • Arlene Magid is a highly respected Arabian horse scholar and researcher. She seems to be putting most of her stuff on her own web site these days, but this gives you some idea of how well-known she is. I can probably dig up the info somewhere else, but this was a straightforward, understandable explanation. Let me know what you'd like to see to further demonstrate her reliability as a source. --Montanabw
  • Ref 54 could use page numbers for the relevant content.
  • You're right! I forgot to do that, have to get the book- which is not at the same place where I edit wiki, but can do this in the next day or so, (tie string on finger). --Montanabw FOLLOW UP -- Added pages to the citation. --Montanabw
  • I think I put in an en-dash, at least it was the option in the insert box that was shorter than an em dash. If it's not the correct way, can someone tweak that for me? (My eyesight is not great on this stuff, I also have a lot of typos with [ and { ) -- Montanabw
  • OK, I think I fixed that, let me know if I didn't do it right. (I'm not great at the formatting stuff) --Montanabw
  • Comment The lead is far too long. Three paragraphs will suffice. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 12:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
    Four paragraphs is perfectly acceptable under the FA criteria. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
    Agreed, the first two paragraphs were merged together at one point, then someone wanted them split apart again, the lead had a lot of work prior to its GA run. If you look at it, we really have a brief summary of each major point, though if you think something in there isn't needed, I am open to suggestions of what could be cut. I'll also take a peek and see if I spot anything that is really too minor for the lead and see what my "eyes have looked at this article too long" brain can cut. Montanabw 20:52, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I did the more recent peer review and am minded to support. A few comments:
  • "His horses won races … " Suggest reversing this sentence and beginning with "Even though"
    I think it was that way once, and someone changed it when we reworked and trimmed the lede a bit in response to the comments above. To address your comment, I rephrased the whole bit into two sentences to put Brown's efforts first and the comment about the Jockey Club grant in a separate sentence. For one thing, the Jockey Club donation only occurred after the first rides where the TBs got beat, so in time sequence it probably needs to go in that order anyway. Does this change work better? (Can continue to tweak if needed) --Montanabw
  • "Despite the entire Brown family selling personal assets" Suggest "Although Brown family members sold personal assets"
    Done. I think that was the way it was once worded and then it was changed (possibly by me in response to someone else, or else by George, ask him?) Will use your wording, if others object, we can discuss. --Montanabw
  • In Personal Life, there should be a lower case Senator.
    The reference is to "U.S. Senator...John B. Gordon" In that context, isn't "United States (or US) Senator" a formal title to be capitalized? (Will change if you can show me that I'm wrong). Montanabw 17:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I suppose so, though I would link in that case. Wehwalt.
DONE -- Montanabw
  • "and became the largest tree nursery in the United States at its peak." Suggest "and at its peak was the largest tree nursery in the United States". Picky, but I think "was" better than "became" here.
    Done. Another case where I think the "at its peak" language was the way it was worded at some point, and someone changed it. Will change back, if whoever changed it objects, we can discuss further. --Montana
  • "He was partially blind in one eye." This should be in the previous sentence, perhaps with the help of an "as".
    Done -- Montanabw
  • Regarding the image of *Abu Zeyd, it is rather unusual to have an image credit as part of the image. Your thoughts?
    I'd like to keep it, as whoever uploaded it to commons, It's one of the best quality scans of the image I have seen (a different example here). That particular shot is also probably the best image of the horse as far as showing his quality. (examples of the few other images of him can be viewed here) FYI, I do not possess the original stud books, and those who have them rarely lend out the originals, so I also contacted the librarian at the W.K.Kellogg library at Cal Poly Pomona, who verified that the image was published on the frontispiece of the 1918 Arabian stud book. -- Montanabw
    I don't personally care, but just giving you a heads up. If you feel it should stay I'm fine with it. Wehwalt.
  • "only £2727" I don't much care for present day values, but could we at least have the dollar equivalent then? It should not be difficult as rates were fixed.
    See the above conversation. I would gladly do a dollars/pounds conversion in 1918 dollars if I knew where to find what the exchange rate was then and properly calculate and source it, do you happen to know a link? I originally had a present day pounds/dollars conversion, but I dropped it due to the conversation with Ed above. I agree that a dollars conversion would be useful and would be glad to add one, so long as the calculation will meet all FA criteria for such things (HELP!) --Montanabw
    Not sure it is reliable, but it seems very good, here.Wehwalt
I'll root around about it a bit as to RS, and will see if I can toss in a conversion. Thanks for the source. Montanabw
  • Do we have any links that might tell us what a remount agent is?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:08, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
    Sadly, no, and even the U.S. Army Remount Service article itself is rather new. (I worked on it some, it was mostly Intothatdarkness' project) In the case of Brown, a lot of the original people writing about him did so in a time when apparently they just assumed everyone knew what a remount agent was. I have found info that these remount agents were basically civilians with government contracts to provide horses to the military and/or to stand stallions owned by the military, and that they also had an advisory board of some sort that was organized in cooperation with the Army, but the sources on this are marginal for RS, especially by the standards of WP MilHist. Intothatdarkness and I have both been doing some digging, and what little we've found is interesting but tertiary sources at best. What little we can properly cite is at U.S._Army_Remount_Service#The_20th_century. --Montanabw
Perhaps you might want to redline it then. Wehwalt.
DONE-- Montanabw
  • Support (placed here for delegate convenience). I've looked over the modifications and see no problems, also the new material. Excellent article about an obscure (at least to me!) but interesting individual.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Nominator's update: After addressing Wehwalt's comments, and per an email request from an editor I respect, suggesting that I add more about Brown's career with the company, I added three new sources and expanded the personal life, Brown Company career, and legacy sections. In the process, I did some copyediting and fixed a few things I spotted along the way. I apologize for doing a major edit in the midst of an FAC, but the material adds significantly to the article. I welcome any comments, help, or suggestions on both the existing and new edits. Here is the diff from today's work. Montanabw 20:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Yes, you're very naughty for adding new material mid-FAC, but I've augmented Wehwalt's check of it with a quick browse of my own and it doesn't look like you've done any harm... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Thanks to all reviewers, I appreciate your work and effort in reviewing this article! Montanabw 19:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC) .

Batman: Arkham City

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake (talk) 15:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello kiddies, Joker here, welcome to the last Featured Article nomination of your lives, but as my old pop used to say...if you gotta support one FAC nomination, do it with a smile. At least I think that's what he said, I do prefer to keep my options open after all. Let me tell you allllllllllllll a little story about why you should support this FAC nomination, don't worry about the poison gas or the explosives they're just decorative. Honest. The article as you can clearly see is detailed and fully comprehensive of the material, an oh-so-snug size in terms of prose, uses images effectively and not overzealously, is well-written, and encompasses all available and sourced information, and I do so love sourced information. Reminds me of my first henchman, he was a gas! Or a gun, a knife? Who cares, guy was a loser anyway. Anywayyyy... Oh I can't take all the credit, though I certainly tried, I have to thank User:Grapple X, User:Y2kcrazyjoker4, User:-5-, User:JHunterJ, User:Masem and...Cluebot NG? Hmm... now that's crazy! Read, and hopefully you will love and support! - Joker (really this guy-> Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC))

Source spot-check by FutureTrillionaire

Resolved comments from Futuretrillionaire (talk)
I'll take a look at this. The source used in the infobox for the European Wii U release date does not mention Nov 30, 2012. In fact, the source doesn't talk about Wii U at all.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:10, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 14:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The 2 sources used for the first few sentences in the Gameplay section do not mention anything related to "stealth", "beat 'em up tactics" or a freely movable "camera".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:57, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 17:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

In the gadgets part, the source used does not mention the "grapnel gun". Also the claim "The game incorporates more puzzle elements than its predecessor" is not supported by the source used (I've checked all 3 pages of the source), or the other source at the end of the paragraph. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The first one is referenced as the Batclaw in the source, the writer not paying much attention, in-game it is on-screen labeled as the Grapnel gun, they're the same thing. Removed the second statement about puzzles. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

In the part about detective vision, the source does not specify that the "navigational element" is toned down compared to the previous game. In the next paragraph, the statement "Batman must rescue a civilian hostage held in one of the Riddler's many death traps" does not seem to be entirely supported by either of the 2 sources at the end of the paragraph. Also, for the next paragraph "Primary" and "secondary" missions and "Freeflow combat system" don't seem to be discussed in any of the 3 sources used.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Ugh, I didn't write most of the Gameplay section and now I'm paying for it. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
The Freeflow Combat part seems to be covered in the last paragraph of Ref 22, it's just not referred to as Freeflow Combat, sorted the mission problem. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 02:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

"(Combat map)" and "(Predator map)" should be removed because not only are they unnecessary, those are not terms used by the source provided. In the part about Catwoman, the 2 sources used do not seem to mention that Catwoman was included with the original PC version. Also, the statement "Her combat emphasizes agility and allows for the use of unique weapons such as clawed gauntlets, bolas, and the iconic whip" is not supported by either of these 2 sources (except for the part about the whip).--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorted. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:00, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The claim "Robin has his own main story narrative" is not supported by the source. For the part about the length of the game, the source says the main mission will last for 20-25 hours, not 25. Also, the source doesn't say aynthing about "15 hours for side missions". For the number of Riddler trophies, the source says there's 400, not 440. If there is indeed exactly 440 trophies, and the number used by the source is an approximation, then either another source needs to be added for the 440 claim, or the sentence can be changed to something like "The game contains approximately four hundred Riddler challenges..."--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The statement "Rather than relying on maps, the player can mark Riddler puzzles as they are found and return to them later" doesn't seem to be supported by any of the sources used in the paragraph. The statement that says that TriOviz for Games Technology is integrated with Unreal Engine 3 is not mentioned in the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:00, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

In the characters section, "Kane", the guy who got replaced, is not mentioned in the source. Either remove the Kane part, or provide a source that says that Kane voiced for the previous game. "Jack Ryder (James Horan)" needs a citation. Victor Zsasz is mentioned in the source, but the voice actor Danny Jacobs is not. "Poison Ivy (Tasia Valenza)" is in a similar situation, although this one is also using a primary source. Behind the Voice Actors.com, the source used for Alfred, is not a good source to use (see Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 86#Behind the Voice Actors.com RS?). It looks like all the character source problems here can be solved by using the 2 gamezone sources . I also reccommend removing the behind the voice of actors source and that primary source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree on Behind the Voice Actors. The information is not controversial, the site is not user edited and they only add information they can source through contact with the person/their staff/or credits. Sadly the people behind Arkham City thought that having us play a guessing game would be the fun thing to do. I contacted BTVA personally and this is the response I received:
          • "Mark,
          • Thanks for the inquiry! No our content is absolutely not user submitted. We rely on end credits or direct contact with the voice directors, voice actors or people involved with the production of the tv show, movie or game.
          • Now, that being said we have not completed the process of verifying ALL of the 80,000+ credits on the site because well to be honest that takes a lot of time. You can tell which ones we have publicly verified by noticing if the credit has a green check mark on the page like you see here:
          • http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/video-games/Batman-Arkham-Asylum/
          • The person in charge of the Arkham City game has apparently not uploaded the credit images/confirmation at this point but I will contact him so he gets that up so you will be able to see exactly where we got our information from.
          • Thanks, and please let us know if you have any other questions or need further explanation.
          • We also have no problem with you referencing/linking to our pages if you need to for citation reasons.
          • - BTVA Admin Team"Darkwarriorblake (talk) 04:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe it is reliable for this purpose. The gamezone reference is useful for some information which is reflected elsewhere, but some parts are inaccurate such as it claiming that Quinton Flynn voices Nightwing when Nightwing has no voice, BTVA doesn't have that issue. I'll look at the rest. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Interesting, but for the Alfred part, BTVA does not have a green check mark on Jarvis, meaning it has not been verified. Therefore, for at least that part, this source can not be used.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
K, I changed things but I'll admit I'm not happy about having to remove BTVA, there's no reason to question it's reliability and the information it is sourcing is not controversial or contested. And it's literally the only place on the entire internet that contains the information in one place and isn't user submitted. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 02:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It looks like BTVA doesn't have a green check mark for LaMarche voice acting Calender man either, so that source can't be used. Again, the Gamezone source can be helpful here. Kari Wahlgren is not mentioned in the source The twitter source for Killer Croc should be removed because there's already a better source cited. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

You're breakin' my balls, but fixed. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

In the settings section, I don't see any of the sources used describing Strange as "genius". This adjective should be removed unless a source can be found to support it. There's no citations in the plot section, which I'm guessing is just using primary sources. Per Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Video games/Sources#Video games, this is discouraged. Here's the GameSpot walkthrough, I think it might help. I'd like to see a citation should be added at the end of each paragraph, even if all the citations come from one source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I've done what I can, there are no references that cover all or even some elements of the plot unless they are forums and FAC film articles do not need their plots referencing. Is there any chance that this is an RS because it covers a bunch of stuff. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Considering that there are other VG FAs that rely solely on primary sources for the plot, I'm not going to be very strict about this. The section now looks good enough to me. As a side note, I have an big test on Thursday, so I can't continue this review for a few days. Sorry about this.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
OK, you've taken time to respond to the FA Nom, that's good enough. You pointed out a lot of issues with Gameplay, almost entirely (apart from the rotating camera) parts that I didn't write and trusted in others to have sourced properly, so it's improved. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I'm back. Here are some more issues I found. The statement "By the time they had programmed Batman to dive and glide between buildings of the asylum, the adaption of the gameplay to the city was considered natural" doesn't seem to be supported by the source, which says "As soon as we had Batman diving off rooftops and gliding between buildings, we knew that we had made the right decision to take the action to the streets." The claim that the studio "only went forward with that they felt would be authentic to Batman" doesn't seem to be supported by that source either. I'm not sure why these two sources are being used. Both are outdated don't support the statement that Rocksteady Studios denied the rumors concerning multiplyaer. The statement "Rocksteady expanded its workforce from 75 to over 100 people" is not supported by the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:07, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

  • The only difference between "As soon as we had Batman diving off rooftops and gliding between buildings, we knew that we had made the right decision to take the action to the streets." and what is in the article seems to be the word "natural" and "right decision to take action to the streets", I can change "natural" if you want but it, to me at least, seems to be making the same point.
  • "only went forward with that they felt would be authentic to Batman" -> in source " The most important thing for us is that players genuinely feel like Batman when they play the game, and so every creative decision that we take is made with that in mind. Then, once we have a feature in place, we ask ourselves, "Does that make me feel like Batman?"
  • The amount of staff was on page 2, fixed the rest. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In the marketing section, there doesn't seem to be a source for the Facebook and Twitter take over. There are 4 sources placed at the end of the second paragraph in the Pre-order bonuses section. Are all 4 really necessary? Also, the Joystiq source says that the source for the skin is no-longer exclusive to Best Buy, so Best Buy should be removed from the sentence. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In the Retail editions section, "Silver Age Batman skin DLC" is not mentioned in the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:24, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It should've said Bronze Age of Comics (His outfit from 1970-1985), in the source it calls it 70s Batman, similar to the Preorder source which calls it 1970s Batman. I've replaced the existing source for the preorder with a better one, left the retail one but corrected the Silver Age to Bronze Age. If you think it is unfair to call it Bronze Age if the source doesn't explicitly name it that, let me know and Ill change them both over to just say 1970s Batman, just using Bronze Age because it's searchable what he looked like where 1970s Batman is a bit more broad a term. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

In the Downloadable content section, Xbox 360 and PS3 are not mentioned in either of these two sources. Also, the claim that originally "the missions were presented as part of the main game" doesn't seem to be supported by the two sources. I can't tell if this statement "Users can also purchase the content separately" is supported by those two sources either.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The Robin pack challenge maps and skins are not supported by the source. Also, I'm think some of the info in the Downloadable content section is repeating some stuff in the Gameplay section. The second-to-last paragraph in the Gameplay section is almost entirely about DLC content. I think that paragraph should be moved down to the DLC section, and trimmed to reduce redundancy.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:58, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The Gameplay paragraph very briefly states their role in the game and mentions they are DLC so as to not give the impression they are a part of the game otherwise, it does not cover in the same detail the DLC section. the rest is done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Some of the percentages in the first paragraph of the Reception section and in the reception infobox needs to be updated. Specifically, all 4 GameRankings percentages, and the Wii U Metacritic percentage.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 09:36, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The claim that Games Masters called it "one of the greatest games ever conceived" doesn't seem to be in the source. Also, I can't find where in this source does it say that the reviewer thought the "B.A.T. system made certain battles too easy." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm on a work conference uintil Friday so I don't know if I can fix this before then but I will try to fit it in. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring the comment. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem. Take your time. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
OK think I sorted it. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

In the sales section, I'm not sure why these 2 sources are being used. They don't mention Arkham City at all.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:44, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

If you look at the archived version of those pages, you'll see why. The problem with dynamic chart pages sadly, but I will see if I can find an update for the main links, the info is still supported in the archive however. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I've replaced one ref and replaced the other two's base links with their webcites. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
You might need to check this out again. For this sentence: "During the first week of sales in the United Kingdom, Batman: Arkham City became the number 1 selling game on all available formats, topping the all-format, PS3 and Xbox 360 charts, replacing FIFA 12," Ref 169 and 170 takes me to error pages.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
They're working for me at the moment, it's possible WebCite was down when you tried to view them, try again here and here. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 17:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay, it's working for me now.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

This statement: "It became the fourth biggest launch of 2011 after FIFA 12, Gears of War 3 and L.A. Noire" is not supported by the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

" Batman becomes the fourth biggest launch of the year to date behind, FIFA 12, Gears of War 3 and LA Noire, and is Warner’s biggest ever UK launch by some distance." Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Opps. My bad.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

In the Accolades section, "Best Studio" should be changed to "Studio of the Year" since it's the term used in the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The source calls the title "Top Gaming Moment", not "Top Game Moment". The same source also calls this title the "Ultimate Game of the Year" not "Ultimate Game Award". Also, the Digital Spy source said the game won the "Best Action-Adventure Game" title at the Golden Joystick awards, but this source says it has been crowned "Best Action Game". Which is it?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:46, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It's inconsistent even on the main site, but I've made the refs consistent. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this statement ("This also tied Arkham City for the sixth-highest-rated game ever") accurately reflects what is written in the source, which says "This makes the trio the joint third highest scoring games ever behind the likes of Super Mario galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 3 and Grand Theft Auto III." The source says the game was tied for 3rd place, not 6th.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

fixed. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the game is tied for 6th-best ever, it's just the MCV source in question is poorly written. The article says that three games released in 2011 (one being Arkham City) are tied for third-best ever behind Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, and Grand Theft Auto III (note that GTA4 is missing). I have absolutely no idea what the publication is trying to convey with this sentence (I don't know if they have ever ranked anything before) but if you look at Metacritic's all-time rankings, you will see that Arkham City is tied with many other titles for a 96 score, with 5 unique titles (if you ignore the repeat GTA4 entry) scoring 97 or above. This would rank Arkham City tied for 6th. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 21:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I think you're misreading the reference, it says that three titles are joint third at 96, it later says that they are along side a bunch of other games at 96 like Bioshock and Half Life 2, those above it at joint 2nd and joint 1st. The source was right, the info in the article saying it was sixth was wrong. The Metacritic source you added has it at 96, the only numbers higher as 97 and 98, so it would be third. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
That's not the way rankings work. If 3 games are tied for 98 and game X has 97, you don't say that game X is in second place. You start by counting down from how many games are ahead of it. Which would mean game X is in fourth place. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 23:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
So those at 97 are joint 3rd place and then the next thing is joint 6th? That doesn't seem to make sense, and it will need updating every time a game scores higher than it. Anyway, my original point was that MCV is saying they are joint third, which is true from at least one perspective at least. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 08:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
There's several ways to rank, but the method I am suggesting is known as "Standard competition ranking ("1224" ranking)". Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 11:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The way this statement ("Batman: Arkham City appeared on several lists of the top video games of 2011, including being placed...number 2 by Gamasutra, and the Financial Post (tied with Skyrim)") is phrased in the article is rather misleading. The Financial Times source did not have a one list system. Rather it presented the opinions of several people, each of whom shared what they thought was the 3 best games of the year.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I counted the number of mentions overall, not sure how else to phrase it but open to suggestions. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
It might be easier to just remove it. This kind of counting is borderline WP:OR.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:22, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Eh, I think it is OK, but I have removed it. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The source doesn't mention that the game was listed "behind Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception." I also got the impression that this is the UK's version of the magazine per the article's title. If that's the case, then it should be specified.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:41, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

In the Technical issues section, the statement claiming that WB "provided a process for users to prove their game was purchased new in order to receive a replacement code" is not supported by the source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

In the Music section, this source doesn't mention "two albums". Also, this source about the Delux edition doesn't list Fish as one of the artists.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Source spot-check complete - All the issues I've found have been addressed. I support this nomination.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Futuretrillionaire for your extensive input and improvements. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:25, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by Hahc21

  • If I am able, I will review this candidate after I finish scanning Oblivion below. In the case that more support votes are casted before I conduct my review, and the delegate considers that it is ready for promotion, they can go ahead and promote without awaiting further. — ΛΧΣ 17:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Hahc21 (talk)
*Lead
    • I feel that you need to expand the critical reception part. You say "The game received critical acclaim" but don't state how or why (leaving the reader in need for more)
  • Gameplay
    • Thumbs up on writing here.
    • Thanks!
  • More to come. — ΛΧΣ 01:57, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Sales
    • " Batman: Arkham City became the number 1 selling game" --> spell all number from 1 to 10. Check for other instances of this.
  • Awards
    • Given the long list of awards, I think you can write a separate list of it, and leave a summary here. I think it will be best.
    • Hmm, I think given the length of the article as it is the awards aren't taking up too much real estate and I'd rather not send a reader away from the article unless I have to. I definitely would prefer to retain the prose in the core article. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
  • General note
    • I see some one-to-two-lines paragraphs here and there. I'd merge them into/to make bigger ones.

Delegate comments

  • There are a few duplicate links that should be reviewed -- use this script to highlight them.
  • Has anyone reviewed image licensing for this article?
  • Checked for myself in any case -- rationales/licences look okay. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)
  • Looks to me that only video game aficianados have reviewed so far -- in addition to their expertise, I'd like to see a review from someone else to help ensure the article's general accessibility/readability. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:40, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
In the Plot section there are five consecutive paras which start, "Batman...."
I had a stab at rewording the openings of the plot paragraphs to reduce the pre-Batmanning. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
When he returns to the Joker, Batman finds him completely healthy. - "unharmed" ? "intact" - "in full vigour"? - all these sound more natural than "completely healthy" which sounds funny to me....
Fair enough, but in the context of the game the Joker starts off really messed up and is shown to be restored to his normal state, so I'm not sure "intact" or "unharmed" would fit. I will have a think about a replacement. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
"finds him..." "...restored to health"? "...completely cured"? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
ok - I think either of those are better than my suggestions. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:18, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
while the line launcher can now be deployed as a tightrope or alter direction during flight - as a (noun) or (verb)...sounds a bit funny - better as 2 nouns or 2 verbs.
At a press conference held by Bruce Wayne to declare his opposition to Arkham City, Tyger mercenaries arrest Wayne and imprison him in Arkham City. --> "At a press conference held by Bruce Wayne to declare his opposition to Arkham City, Tyger mercenaries arrest and detain/imprison him in Arkham City." (eliminate a Wayne)

Looks pretty comprehensive and I can't see any other prose clangers....

Tks for providing the additional check I was after, Cas. I'll be promoting the article based on the above reviews. For the record, one-word supports (or opposes for that matter), however well-intentioned, don't actually have any bearing on the outcome -- commentary indicating familiarity with FAC criteria carries far more weight. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC) .

Gateshead International Stadium

Nominator(s): Meetthefeebles (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I've spent about six months working on this article, which describes the host venue of the 2013 European Team Championships. It started as a stub, was promoted to GA in November 2012, was peer reviewed by Giants2008 in December 2012 and was then kindly given a once over for content and prose by Sarastro1 over the Christmas holidays (recorded for posterity on the article talk page). Hopefully it is now ready for a crack at FAC. I will be available to respond to comments and suggestions. Meetthefeebles (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments Hi there. This is looking pretty good so far. Prose is largely up to snuff and I've started going through some of the references. There are some issues that need to be addressed (though nothing fatal to the article's FAC, at least upon my first read-through). There are the occasional jargon/unfamiliar reader concerns (ex. in the lead Gateshead F.C. is mentioned without cluing people to what sport they play; same deal with the 3,000m), colloquialisms ("slated"), and redundancies ("The report also noted concerns that the original centrepiece of the proposed village, the ice rink, may have been deterring investors and that a proposal to redevelop land at the Stadium of Light in Sunderland, which also proposed an ice rink as a centrepiece, was detracting from what councillors had hoped to be a unique feature of the proposed village."). The article should try to refrain from citing primary sources as much as possible--this mainly means the sports team websites. Also, much of the Transport section strikes me as problematic, as you are pretty much repeating map directions and primary source info from the Metro website.

Some other items I wanted to bring up:

  • The last sentences of the History and Development section seem to go off the rails a bit, becoming nonsensical. The last sentence even ends on a comma.
I've corrected the grammar problem and slightly reworded to give a bit more cohesion I think. Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Are concert performances a rarity at the venue? If not, I wonder why single out these particular performances.
Yes, they are indeed, especially since the opening of the Metro Radio Arena just accross the river in 1995. I can't think of any concerts held there at all since around that time (and I live in Gateshead). Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In the sentence that starts "While these did not have an immediate positive impact..." what is "these" referring to?
I've reworded slightly to give better context. Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • What makes bluesqfootball.com and footballgroundguide.com reliable sources?
The Blue Square site is the official site of the league; It is actually called the 'Blue Square Premier Division' but obviously this is not included in the article. The other one is perhaps not reliable (I'm not sure) so I have replaced with a link to a BBC report. Meetthefeebles (talk)
  • Is there a proper criteria to define "world class" athletes?
This one came up in PR - I thought I'd taken these out. It is now gone. Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • When inline citing The Brewing Grade Review, since there's no author listed type out the full title instead of writing an acronym, and place the title in italics.
Wasn't sure how to deal with that one. It has been changed as suggested. Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Journey time by car from Gateshead town centre is approximately five minutes and a further five minutes travel from Newcastle upon Tyne." This link does not work for me. Also, if you are making calculations instead of citing something that is plainly said, that skirts on original research.
The link didn't work for me, either, so I've added a new one. It is a calculation of sorts; the link is to a bus timetable. Is there a better source that might just stipulate this? If not, I'll just take it out if necessary. Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll check back in on this FAC and will add further comments as I review the article further. In any event, good luck, and I hope everything will be taken care of in due course. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to read and leave comments. I've making some small changes as suggested. Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support – As stated in the nomination, I contributed suggestions for the article at peer review; in addition, I did some copy-editing back then, and tweaked a few things before coming here. My impression back then was that the article would have a strong chance at passing FAC with additional copy-editing, which has been done by Sarastro. My only additional comment is that the note in the bibliography on abbreviations has no purpose now, since the abbreviations were removed after Wesley's review. Otherwise, I think that the article meets the FA criteria, and see no reason to withhold support as I have faith that the note will be fixed prompted. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the support and for the excellent work at peer review which improved the article. I have removed the superfluous bibliography note. Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Comments on prose and comprehensiveness. I had a squiz at this some time ago, but got distracted and forgot about it (as is the way of things). Anyway, here we are and I'll take another squiz and jot queries below..... Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Since then is has been extensively re-developed, most notably in the early 1970s, 2006 and 2010. - (a) I presume the "is" should be an "it", and (b) is "notably" the right adverb? Do you mean "extensively"? (I wouldn't have thought of renovations as famous....)
Gateshead football club have played their home games at the stadium since their modern inception in 1974. - "modern inception" sounds funny to me ...."modern incarnation" or "reformation" or ...?
However, there are plans to vacate the site when their own purpose-built ground is built. - subjects of two segments ("plans" and "their own...") don't gell - better would be However, the club will vacate the site when their own purpose-built ground is built.
a former schoolteacher turned world-class athlete - I'd drop "world-class" as a bit puffy.
the venue was renamed the "Gateshead International Stadium". - quotes unnecessary here.
and the venues's profile was further raised in the summer of 1983 - too many s's?

Looking good otherwise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look and comment - 'tis always appreciated. I've made some small amendments per your suggestions (though I think this nomination looks somewhat doomed to failure through lack of interest). Meetthefeebles (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment: regarding File:Gateshead_harriers_logo_on_black_background.png, are you sure this is a free image? The given licensing info doesn't seem to make sense. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it is okay. I must confess that I didn't upload or even add this image - I logged into Wiki one day and someone had added it to the article... Meetthefeebles (talk) 13:48, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Support with copy-editing disclaimer: This is a (relatively) long article, and its structure does not really flow, but this comes from the subject matter, and the necessary limitations of this type of article, not the writing. I copy-edited and commented on the article before it came to FAC, and the changes made then and since leave me confident that this is FA standard. I would have commented much sooner, but I prefer uninvolved editors to comment first where I have been copy-editing. And, to be honest, I forgot it was here! I'd still be happier if some other editors could check the prose, but I suspect that may not happen, so I will support now. However, I agree with Nikkimaria that the Harriers logo looks suspect, and I would be inclined to remove it to be on the safe side. Otherwise, good work and well done. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and for taking the time to look over the article prior to this nomination. Both are appreciated. In light of your concern and that of Nikkimaria, I've simply removed the Harriers logo. Hopefully one or two more editors can take a look at the article before it's time is up... Meetthefeebles (talk) 22:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

  • Your first FAC, Meetthefeebles? If so, a belated welcome! That being the case, I'll want to see a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing -- if none of the reviewers above take care of it, I'll probably do it myself in the next couple of days.
  • You have Harv errors in the Bibliography, though they shouldn't take long to fix -- install this script to see them for yourself in future. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:39, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi Ian. It isn't my first FAC but I am rarely here (most of my time is spent at GAN) and your kind welcome is appreciated nonetheless. I've fixed (I think) the Harv errors in the bibliography and I am available to deal with any other issues. Meetthefeebles (talk) 23:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Still see the Harv errors in the Bibliography section -- did you use the script I mentioned above? Looking at the article, you don't appear to be using Harv citations anyway, so the simplest thing is to just remove the "ref=harv" parameter from the templates in the Bibliography.
Done. I tried to use the script but I am hopeless at such things and simply got lost... Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • One other thing, however, I couldn't see where Cox was cited in the article. In that case, the book should be removed from the Bibliography section (it could be included in a "Further reading" section if you choose). Pls check for similar instances. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:15, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Cox was in an older version of the article but was removed at PR. The others in the bibliography are all fine after a check. Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Source spotcheck

  • FN13 (c) -- okay
  • FN17 (b) -- okay
  • FN17 (c) -- can't see specific mention of the 1974 "Gateshead Games" on page 1
  • FN79 -- okay
  • FN99 -- okay
  • FN113 -- okay

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ian. I've added a reference to a new source which specifically mentions the "Gateshead Games" at FN17 (c) per your comment above. Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:57, 6 March 2013 (UTC) .

Alben W. Barkley

Nominator(s): Acdixon 21:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Since my last Kentucky governor FAC was met with a collective yawn, I've decided to see if I can generate more interest with a U.S. Vice President from Kentucky. This article has been through the wringer, from an RFC on its length and number of references, to a successful GAC nomination, to a partial copyedit from Collect (talk · contribs), to a full-fledged peer review. Now, I think it's ready for FAC. I will do my best to respond promptly to comments. Acdixon 21:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Please see the FAC instructions where it says, "None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a delegate will decide whether to remove it. Nominators whose nominations are archived with no (or minimal) feedback will be given exemptions." Have you requested an exemption? Graham Colm (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
No, I didn't, because I misread the instructions. I thought they referred to re-nominating the article that just failed; I didn't see that they referred to any other article. I guess I've been in violation of this rule several times, and no one has ever called me on it, so mine was a sin of ignorance. I assume you would agree that the Stevenson nomination received minimal feedback and should qualify for an exemption? Acdixon 13:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes I agree. Given the paucity of reviews of your previous nomination, I think it is acceptable to proceed with this one. Graham Colm (talk) 15:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Support:

  • You describe how he went from "Willie Alben" to "William Alben," but don't say how he came to be "Alben William," unless I missed it.
  • How much did Barkley win his first House election by? Was the primary the main contest, or was his district one of the ones Republicans occassionally won back then?
    • I will try to dig up that source again and see if it says. I'm usually exceedingly diligent about including that when it's available, so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't. Without doubt, the primary would have been the main contest. The First District was the most solidly Democratic district in the state for decades, including this time period. Details here. Acdixon 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The declaration of war in 1917--you say he voted for it when it came before the Senate. Should that be "House"?
  • Under "U.S. Senator", do you identify the Bourbon faction before this point? If not, a link might help, especially in a Kentucky article where it might be confused with the county.
    • I had a previous reference in there, but during the peer review, Wehwalt (talk · contribs) was concerned about the use of the term because it had broader national implications, so I removed it. I didn't realize it was in there again. Changed. Acdixon 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Was the Hatch Act specifically a reaction to shenanigans in Kentucky, or were there similar incidents elsewhere that were equally notorious?
    • My impression is that, if there were other instances (and surely there were), they were far from equally notorious. The Barkley-Chandler contest seems to have been a contest of national interest, which put the spotlight on the issues addressed by the Hatch Act. Admittedly, most of my sources are Kentucky-centric, but they read as though the act was a direct response to this particular election. Acdixon 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • That's all I have, other than some minor copyediting I did. Nice article! --Coemgenus (talk) 20:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN84: formatting
  • FN94: page formatting
  • FN141: which Libbey?
  • Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
  • University Press of Kentucky or The University Press of Kentucky? Register of the Kentucky Historical Society or The Register of the Kentucky Historical Society?
  • Check formatting of quotation marks within quotation marks
  • Lake Barkley: doubled period from template
  • Pietrusza: ISBN?
  • Check page formatting in Further reading
  • External link should use endash. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
All done! Acdixon 15:47, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Support I had my say at the peer review, and, for the most part, my concerns were addressed. I'd still like to see a bit more on Barkeley's personal style, which was folksy and distinctive, but that's not enough to stop me from supporting.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK as Public Domain, sources and authors provided, one small problem:

  • The derivative images should be tagged with "self|Cc-by-sa-3.0". "PD-Harris-Ewing" refers to the original copyright situation of the original image (some uploaders add such original tags as secondary tag for information purposes). Derivative works create a new copyright with the need for a license from the creator of the derivative. GermanJoe (talk) 09:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments: This looks like a very worthy political biography, and I am not far off supporting. I do however have a few issues:-

  • Possible overdetailing: these political articles can be difficult reading for those unfamiliar with the context. One way of making them more accessible is to be sparing on minor detail; I feel that in this article one is sometimes bogged down with trivia. As an example, consider this, (concerning Barkley's run in the primaries for governor in 1922):

"Bingham's campaign forced Barkley to declare his candidacy earlier than planned, but it was not successful outside Louisville; Beckham supporters backed Barkley, more to prevent Cantrill's nomination than because they desired Barkley's. Beckham's law partner, Elwood Hamilton, became Barkley's campaign chairman, and Percy Haly, a political boss in the Beckham faction, was a Barkley advisor. Barkley recruited Wiley B. Bryan, a former Cantrill supporter, as his campaign treasurer, and appointed Mildred Spaulding, who supported Barkley more than Cantrill or Beckham, as head of his Louisville campaign headquarters."

All very hard to follow, and is this level of detail really necessary, for what was an ultimately unsuccessful campaign and hardly central to Barkley's life and career? This is one example; there are other similar cases.
    • Good point. The idea here is that Barkley attracted support across factional boundaries, which was important in his later Senate run. I've reduced the detail here. I'm more than open to your pointing out additional examples. I've been through this thing trying to reduce it's length so many times that I can no longer effectively identify these things anymore. Acdixon 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
    • The reduced text is definitely better, though you need to clarify what is meant by "it" in "it was not successful outside Louisville". The tactic, presumably? I don't have time to suggest specifically in what other areas you might trim detail; this was more by way of advising you to be watchful for any chances to improve readability, which can be something of a problem with political biographies of, shall we say, the non-stellar variety. Brianboulton (talk)
      • Fixed this. Hopefully, I can take a fresh look in the post-FAC period to see if I can identify any more places where trimming could help, but I'm just too close to the text right now. Acdixon 15:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • In the lead, "Roosevelt" is mentioned with no link or indication as to who he was. Presumably most/all American readers will know, but for the rest of us, well he's been gone many years...I'd specify "President Roosevelt" and link.
  • "Coolidge administration" does not seem an appropriate section heading, as Coolidge's presidency is not discussed in the text.
    • Personally, I'd alter "Harding administration" to "Relations with Harding administration", and adopt your "Late House career" heading in place of "Coolidge administration"
  • Who says Davis was "lacklustre"? This reads as an editorial judgement.
    • This is Libbey's judgment, although Davis' own article calls him a "dark horse" for the presidency in 1924. I'm not sure "little-known" is exactly correct, but it's clear he wasn't really a competitive candidate. Acdixon 13:30, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • " until after he seconding Smith's nomination for president" - needs attention
  • "Barkley called for a platform plank directing Congress to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment" - you should specify that this refers to the repeal of Prohibition.
    • Barely. You say, earlier, "future prohibition legislation, including the Eighteenth Amendment" which is not very precise. For the benefit of younger and non-American readers I would uses this latter sentence to include a link, thus: "Barkley called for a platform plank directing Congress to repeal prohibition.
  • What was Roosevelt's "court-packing plan"?
    • It's a bit complicated. The law limits the number of Supreme Court justices to nine, and appointments are for life. The Supreme Court struck down some of Roosevelt's New Deal, so he proposed the "court-packing plan", which would allow him to appoint an additional justice for every sitting justice over the age of 70. Ostensibly, the idea was to reduce the workload of the older judges, but as I understand it, most folks, even non-politicos, saw it as a transparent attempt to allow Roosevelt to appoint more justices friendly to the New Deal without having to wait for sitting justices to retire. As such, it was cherished legislation for New Deal supporters and totally anathema to New Deal opponents. The wikilink is on the word "legislation" in the previous paragraph. Acdixon 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Can you explain: The New York Times called the race "the Gettysburg of the party's internecine strife over national control in 1940 "? Doesn't seem to make sense in the context.
    • I assume (perhaps wrongly) that most folks know that Gettysburg was a key battle in the American Civil War. The Times was comparing the Kentucky primary to that key battle because it was a challenge to Roosevelt's hand-picked Senate floor leader by a New Deal opponent. If Barkley had lost, it would have been seen as a repudiation of his New Deal agenda. Acdixon 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • "...all of these candidates won, damaging Roosevelt's image." Wrong use of participle; you could say: "thereby damaging" or "which damaged".
  • "In 1943, Roosevelt refused to appoint Barkley to a vacancy on the Supreme Court". There is no previous indication that Barkley sought such a position. Also, to the general reader this refusal seems eminently reasonable, given Barkley's slender legal training and limited practical experience, yet you make it seem as though Roosevelt was denying Barkley his rightful due.
    • I'm pretty sure Barkley was seeking a patronage appointment. He had been a loyal supporter of Roosevelt, and he thought he was entitled to the appointment if he wanted it. The source doesn't explicitly say that, but it's a political tradition in the U.S. that dates back basically to the country's founding. Usually, it's a cabinet post, a diplomatic mission, or a lower federal judgeship, but this would not have been the first time a president made a patronage appointment to the court, and it would have been less strange still considering Roosevelt's adversarial relationship with the sitting justices. Acdixon 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • " making 40 major speeches his first eight months in office" - something missing there.
  • " Illinois Governor Adlai Stevenson (son of the vice-president)..." Grandson, I believe, and "former vice president", without the hyphen.

All in all, highly creditable. I'd never heard of him, but have now. Brianboulton (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, and sorry about the slow response. Been a busy (but rewarding) couple of weeks at work, and my little girl was sick, but is feeling much better now. Acdixon 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Ready to support when the final tweaking is done. More importantly, I hope your little daughter is better, and no more sleepless nights. Brianboulton (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the well wishes for Little Miss Acdixon, who was recovered enough to take in the Senior Day basketball festivities at my alma mater this weekend. Thankful for Tamiflu; hope the flu hasn't been as bad where you are as it has been in the States this year. Acdixon 15:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Support after careful attention given to my points raised above. As I said earlier, very creditable. Brianboulton (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment Having read about a third of the article so far, this is very really well written, insightful and engaging to the reader. Cmts to follow. Ceoil (talk) 22:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Notwith standing, this was a pleasure to read, I have a few quibbles I can sort myself. Re: Read the other two thirds last night, made a few small tweaks, few more to make, its a Support from me anyroads. Ceoil (talk) 01:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the support. Most of your tweaks were fine, but I altered a few of them for various reasons. If you feel strongly about any of the ones I changed, we can discuss. Acdixon 15:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC) .

H. C. McNeile

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

One of the forgotten giants of the golden age of British detective fiction, H. C. McNeile is a largely forgotten figure today. Best known for his Bulldog Drummond stories, McNeile created the forerunner to later thriller heroes—Drummond was both a proto-Bond and Biggles—but he also wrote extensively about the First World War, while serving on the front line. Some top-drawer assistance during the peer review has helped immensely in developing this article. – SchroCat (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Support – I took part in the peer review, where my few quibbles were satisfactorily attended to. The article is comprehensive but not excessive in length, well proportioned, unbiased, well referenced, and in highly readable prose. It meets the FA criteria, in my opinion. Tim riley (talk) 10:11, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Support – I have had the joy of following this article from the start and have enjoyed its progression to FAC. Like Tim I played a hand at the peer review where all my comments were addressed. A thoroughly worthy candidate and one that certainly has my support to FA status. -- Cassianto 10:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Image check from GermanJoe

- all OK (3 of 3 done). some of the images need clarification regarding their copyright status:

  • File:Sapper_APWatt.jpg has 2 problems: "for representation in Misplaced Pages articles" would be an invalid license limitation for Wiki-images (it must be completely free except attribution). The other issue is the missing OTRS-ticket tag, making it hard to verify the situation. Is there a similar image of him available with a clearer copyright situation? Either replace or we could try a request to check it on OTRS-noticeboard.
  • I have not found any other images on my searches, but it is possible there are others in books that could be scanned. I thought that the email agreement from the copyright owners for us to use it on Wiki would be sufficient, but I'll ask at Commons for some more clarity on the use. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
  • File:No_Man's_Land_-_1ed_ed_cover.jpg - OK, only when the cover was first used for the US edition. Could you clarify, if this was the first published edition and/or other editions used different covers?
  • File:Bulldog_Drummond_Poster.jpg - The source website claims: "The artwork was done by E. William Haemmel.", author info needs to be checked and added. Also the country of origin is unclear, could you verify, that the poster was first published in the US and not in the UK? (if UK, you need a second UK-specific copyright tag).
  • As far as can be ascertained, it was the US only, (although as this is a lost film, there is very little info, including artwork). E. William Haemmel was an American illustrator and the searches I did for him previously show little info, except a few covers of US magazines. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Hm, F. or E. William Haemmel? This link ] of an old newspaper , and a few others, has F. as illustrator of covers. Either way i'll add a small note with disclaimer to the summary.
  • Other images are OK (PD-1923, geograph project). Sources and authors provided.

Generally, when the work's country of origin is not US, you'll need a second copyright tag for this country (atleast for Commons images, images downloaded on Wiki-servers would be OK with US-copyright only). GermanJoe (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Status update, 2 of 3 done GermanJoe (talk) 16:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
All images OK - first image deleted via OTRS-team and replaced with fair-use File:(Herman)_Cyril_McNeile_by_Howard_Coster.jpg. GermanJoe (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks very much GermanJoe, for all your work on this review - as well as going off and dealing with the OTRS team too: it is very mcuh appreciated! - SchroCat (talk) 22:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Source review from Nikkimaria

- spotchecks not done

  • Page number for pull-quote in Post-war?
  • FN2, 97: possible to format these as single footnotes?
  • FN4: page(s)?
  • Check alphabetization of Journals
  • Where is Westport? Whitefish? Jefferson?
  • Be consistent in whether you include publishers for journals

Initial Comments from Ceranthor

  • Source 15, 94, 60, 63, 89, and 95 should probably have publishers. Source 5 and 20 also.
  • Some of the citations to Treadwell 2001, p. 111. are unnecessary, making the extent to "m" bothersome. In the bits of text where it is used successively alone after itself, such as in these two sentences ("Few details are known about McNeile's wartime service, as his records were destroyed by incendiary bombs during the Second World War. He spent time with a number of Royal Engineer units on the Western Front, including 1st Field Squadron, 15th Field Company and 33rd Division, where he was the commander.") I don't think it needs to be cited more than once. I think this is most prevalent in "First World War service".
  • There's only two (one of which is your quoted one) which I'm comfortable taking out. The others are not clear cut enough to remove without appearing to be supported by other references. - SchroCat (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Consistency is needed for the footnotes listing for example "The ten Drummond novels are"... I changed them to a prose format, but it is entirely up to you whether or not they should be a list or prose. They just all need to be the same, please!
  • Are sources 94 and 95 ("New Mystery Stories") actually separate articles, or is the difference just a matter of date of publication?

Will come back to look over prose once these comments are addressed. ceranthor 22:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

A Few Prose Comments from Ceranthor
  • Early life:
    • he travelled via England - I assume this means through? Can't we just say through? Via is usually not used in this context in my experience.
  • Post-war
    • a member of "the Breed" - could you clarify briefly what the Breed is here? Oops, missed it earlier!
    • He had a loud voice and a louder laugh, who "liked to enliven clubs and restaurants with the sight and sound of military good fellowship"; - The way this sentence is composed makes it sound like you intend to say his laugh "liked to...".
  • Death
    • On his death his estate was valued at over £26,000. - Is on his death proper British English? I've heard the "on something" phrase once, but it was in some sort of poem - I think Walt Whitman, so it could've been an experimental phrase. Just a clarification would be nice if it is grammatically sound.
  • Reception
    • similarly, his thrillers also went well, with Bulldog Drummond selling 396,302 copies between 1920 and 1939, - I don't think books "go well". Sales do!
    • the Daily Mirror estimated he had earned £85,000 from his writing. - Over his entire career I would think. Not quite clear for some reason.

In general, it seems like you're overusing commas a bit throughout the article, but I think it's sound in terms of prose with just a few niggling issues. I'm going to continue running through the article over the next few days, but I'm more than comfortable with its condition.
Support. ceranthor 22:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Many thanks indeed for your time and efforts on this: it's much appreciated and I think the article reads much better for your for your thoughts. Thanks again. - SchroCat (talk) 06:22, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

Comments leaning to support: I carried out a limited peer review (images and lead prose). Having just read the whole article, I think it is in pretty good shape, though I think one more prose pass would be beneficial. I have done a few fixes myself; in addition, here is a list of some relatively minor points I picked up in the first half of the article. I'd like to be reassured that the second half has been checked over, before fully committing to support:

  • "although he adopted the life-long nickname Mac to his friends" - does not real well. Is "Mac" really a "nickname"? For someone called McNeile I'd say it was a diminutive. And does one "adopt" one's own nickname? I think the phrase should be simplified: "...although he was always known by his friends as Mac"
  • "He spent time with a number of Royal Engineer units on the Western Front, including 1st Field Squadron, 15th Field Company and 33rd Division, where he was the commander". What exactly was he commander of? It reads as though you mean the 33rd Division, but divisional commanders were Major-generals, so I assume you don't mean that. As a captain he may have commanded a company. Needs clarification.
  • "McNeile later admitted...": this phrasing always sounds like a confession to a crime. Perhaps "confided"?
  • I think the capitalisation in "and was Mentioned in Despatches" is dubious. Outside Misplaced Pages it is not normally written like this. Note: this usage occurs twice in the paragraph.
  • In what sense was Treadwall an "independent" scholar?
  • "was briefly hospitalised, forcing him..." Better: "which forced him..."
  • "there is also an element of The Scarlet Pimpernel too." Last word redundant ("also" encompasses "too")
  • " Later in 1922 he resigned his commission..." "He" is inadequate; you've mentioned two other people since last naming NcNeile.
  • Link tax exile, and also reorder the sentence so that it doesn't imply that McNeile's wife was the tax exile.

Brianboulton (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks Brian: as always your time, effort and thoughts are hugely appreciated and I hope the subsequent edits have done justice to your comments. I'll go over the remainder of the article again tomorrow morning for a further ce. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Butting in: thanks Brian. Regarding "Mentioned in Despatches", you're quite right ... I haven't seen "proper verbs" outside of military usage (and the occasional trademark; "Xeroxed" was capitalized many years ago), so however common the phrase is with the military, we lowercase it in Milhist articles, or switch to the noun form, "received a Mention in Despatches". - Dank (push to talk) 20:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Dank: your input is much appreciated and I've dropped it into lower case. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Support with a few more quibbles (I've also done some more prose tweaking - see article's edit history):

  • A phrase as subjective (and unidiomatic) as "unremittingly hearty" really should be in quotes and attributed to a source.
  • The two present-day values that you show (£225,337 for £5000 and £1,243,485 for "over £26,000") are both instances of spurious accuracy. These present-day-value formulae, especially the somewhat eccentric ones on which Measuringworth's calculations are based, are never that pin-point accurate, and "over 26,000" is anyway an approximation. Personally I avoid any controversy over present-day values by not giving them; if you want to keep them in I suggest you say "over £200,000" and "about £1.2 million" respectively. That's as much accuracy as is possible or necessary, and should avoid further quibbling.
  • I've got rid of them. I can't so anything about sourcing the approximate amounts, so I'll take your "avoidance of controversy" line and strike them entirely. - SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Bibliography" means all sources, not just books, so I would bring the three journal articles into the main alphabetical listing. (That would have saved me time looking for the Bourn source).
  • Sorry! I've always lumped everything in together until a previous article where I was told quite strongly to separate them out—something I've always objected to! (In fact I may go back and try and remember which article it was and merge them all together again...) - SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Article in good shape now, and eminently promotable. Brianboulton (talk) 16:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

As always Brian, many, many thanks for all your efforts at sorting out my scribbling. I am deeply in your debt and I'll try not to bother you for anything more (for a little while at least!) Thanks again. - SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Some comments from Carabinieri:

  • "His thrillers are a continuation of his war stories with the threat to England from foreigners having to be fought by upper class Englishmen" I think I understand that sentence. You're saying that there is an analogy between the struggle between Englishmen and foreign armies in his WWI stories and that between Englishmen and foreigners in his later stories. That could probably be expressed more clearly.
  • I wondered why in the "Style and technique" section the discussion of his work during WWI precedes that of his post-war work.
  • Reading the article, I wondered when and how the collaboration between McNeile and Fairlie started.
  • Having a "biography" section on the one hand but then discussing the man's death in another doesn't really make sense to me. I would suggest merging the "biography" and "personal life" sections. I would move the first paragraph of the later section to the beginning of the "Post-war" sub-section and attaching "Death and legacy" as a its own sub-section.--Carabinieri (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Nice. I forgot to mention this in my comments: I enjoyed reading the article. Good job. I'd support, but I don't know anything about the topic, so I don't think I can make that kind of assessment.--Carabinieri (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments

Many thanks for casting your eagle eyes over this one Dan. (And its got so many copy editors because my bloody awful writing needs it!) many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC) .

Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma

Nominator(s): • Astynax ; Lecen (talk) 04:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because the existing article has been recently rewritten with the addition of images and better sources. • Astynax 04:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment: Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma was born in the Kingdom of Portugal in 1808. He served his entire life in the navy of the Empire of Brazil, leading it in the Paraguayan War that lasted from 1864 until 1870. --Lecen (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

  • A few comments on the lead prose:
  • " After Brazilian independence in 1822, Inhaúma enlisted to serve in the armada (navy) of Brazil." Is it right, in this context, to refer to him as "Inhaúma", when he did not acquire this title until 1867? The same applies to other statements in the lead. I note that in the article itself you call him "Joaquim Inácio" until his title is conferred.
  • "enlisted to serve..." The words "to serve" are redundant.
  • "during the latter half of the 1820s, he engaged in subduing secessionist rebellions". As worded, this suggests a major role which, in view of his youth, is unlikely. Suggest you soften to "participated in the subduing of..." or similar
  • "during that troubled period". In the interests of neutrality I would remove "troubled".
  • "He first saw action in the Sabinada between 1837 and 1838..." This will confuse readers, who have just been told he put down rebellions in the late 1820s, which is presumably where he first saw action.
  • "a couple years" is colloquial American English. It is not encyclopedic.
  • I am somewhat puzzled by the fourth paragraph, which summarises Inhaúma as hesitant, procrastinating, mentally exhausted and diseased, yet then says he is regarded as among the greatest Brazilian navy officers. Perhaps, rather than making so definitive a statement ("Inhaúma's leadership was encumbered by his hesitating and procrastinating behavior") you should qualify this, e.g. "some historians believe that..." etc.

That's all I have time for at the moment. Will return if possible. Brianboulton (talk) 20:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Brian. It's good to see you. Now let's take a look at your comment:
  1. He is called Inhaúma in the entire text of the lead for simplicity's sake. It's the same standard used in other similar articles such as Pedro II of Brazil, Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias, Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre, etc...
  2. "enlisted to serve..." Fixed that.
  3. "during the latter half of the 1820s, he engaged in subduing secessionist rebellions". Fixed as per your suggestion.
  4. "during that troubled period". It was a troubled time the regency in the 1830s. It was regarded as such by contemporaries and historians. Don't worry, it isn't a controversial issue. In fact, nothing in the article or related to it it's controversial.
  5. "He first saw action in the Sabinada between 1837 and 1838..." Fixed that by removing "first".
  6. "a couple years" Changed for "two".
  7. "I am somewhat puzzled by the fourth paragraph, which summarises Inhaúma as hesitant..." Merely because he was a brave officer and regarded by a few historians as one of the greatest in Brazilian history doesn't mean that he was devoid of flaws, right? And that is also uncontroversial. Even his superior, the Duke of Caxias complained about his behavior.
I hope you'll find time to take a look at the rest of the article. Thanks for your imput, --Lecen (talk) 00:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm happy with these responses. As I say, I'll try to find time for a more detailed look. Brianboulton (talk) 18:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment (drive-by) - Inline source "Ouro Preto (1894)" lacks a full bibliographic entry in "References". GermanJoe (talk) 11:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much, GermanJoe. I added the missing book. --Lecen (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Support with the disclaimer that I have worked with Lecen before. The sourcing is typically top-notch, and if Dank's copyedited it, I am satisfied with the prose. Ed  08:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK, some more tweaks needed (cleaned up a few summaries):

Two more comments:

  • One repeating problem is the lack of original publication info. I realize, it's probably difficult or impossible to find all details, but a bit more information would help to strengthen the PD-1923 license: are you sure, those images were published pre-1923? Where would such images usually be published, in Brazilian newspapers or books? Even if the original source is lost, it would help to explain, why we believe it's pre-1923. (see additional details below)
  • Reading the article as a complete novice, the portrait captions look a bit repetitive. Just "name, aged, year" for every portrait may be encyclopedic, but doesn't draw the reader into the article. Any more brief details to add to the captions, atleast for a few of them? GermanJoe (talk) 10:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi, Joe, it's good to see you. The reason to why I used "PD-100" was because I compared with the lifetime of contemporary Brazilian photographers: Revert Henrique Klumb (183? — c. 1886), Alberto Henschel (1827-1882), Augusto Stahl (1828-1877), etc... all active in the 1860s. Marc Ferrez (1843-1923), who was active in the 1880s lived until 1923. I can hardly believe that the photographer who took those photos lived until the 1890s, even less the 1910s. In the specific case of the Viscount of Inhaúma, photographs and lithographys portraying him became common in the 1860s until his death in 1869 after he became Minister of Navy and commanded the Brazilian navy in the Paraguayan War (1864-70). Photos were sold nationwide (just like in the U.S. with Grant and Lee, for example), litographs were published in newspapers, etc... There are no known portraits of Inhaúma after his death. I added a few words to a couple of captions. I'm out of ideas here. If you have any suggestions I'd appreciate. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the additional background information. All images should be OK as PD then, based on the available context. A bit of a grey area, but absent time travelling to check this in person the reasoning is good enough for me ;). GermanJoe (talk) 13:53, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

  • Shouldn't Agriculture Ministry/Minster be capitalized as proper nouns?
  • Link corvette, frigate, schooner, firefighter corps and schooner/brig
  • I think of mate as an enlisted rank, but he was an officer. So what's going on here?
  • Is there any explanation as to why his ships keep suddenly sinking on him? Was there so little maintenance in the armada that this was a common occurrence?
  • Don't hyphenate prime minister--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for going through the article. I believe the capitalization of the titles follows WP:JOBTITLES (i.e., they are capitalized only when used in the place of a proper name or immediately before a proper name). I've also inserted the wikilinks. Lecen is looking over the sources to see if they give explanations of the rank and ship sinkings and will respond here. • Astynax 09:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
That works for the title, but not the ministry itself.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I missed that one, and it is now corrected. • Astynax 18:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Sturmvogel 66. I'm glad to see you here. Let's take a look at your questions:
  1. Neither Barros (1870) nor Sisson (1999) explain why the Duquesa de Goiás sank in 1827. All they say was that he was the last officer to leave the doomed vessel and how noble and brave he was for acting like that. I opted not to mention the "noble" and "brave" parts or we would have written an hagiography, not a biographical article. Frota (2008), however, gives the reason to the sinking: when the ship entered the channel of the Río Negro (Argentina), it made a wrong maneuver, colliding in a bank and water started plumbing in (p.17). Since was neither the commander of the ship, nor its pilot, but merely a member of the crew, I thought it wouldn't be worth the mention since it could look like we were blamming him. Now for the Jaguaripe, the ship lost in 1833: Barros (1870) does not give an explanation to why it sank, but he mentions that the Jaguaripe was an "old schooner of awful construction" (that is, that it had serious flaws in her construction). Frota (1008) does not tell how the ship went down. Sisson (1999) also said that it was old and badly built. He does, however, explain why the ship sank: an increasingly strong wind forced the ship aground in the Brazilian litoral.
  1. OK, good enough for Duquesa de Goias since he was just a passenger. But you should describe how Jaguaripe was lost in a little more detail since he was involved. Ships' bottoms do occasionally rot and allow the ship to sink, q.v. CSS North Carolina, but that's not very common.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
  1. Regarding the mate doubt: he was the "oficial imediato" of the Pará and Grenfell. According to the Misplaced Pages in Portuguese, the name given in English is "chief officer" and "first mate". In the Misplaced Pages in English, the names given in Chief mate are: "Chief mate", "Chief Officer", "First Officer" and "First Mate".
  1. First mate is a title that applies to civilian ships, not military ones. The best translation of the Portuguese would be First Officer or First Lieutenant.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I hope that helps. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Fixed all remaining issues. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment

In the lead I think we could afford to lose "but died before taking office" or possibly change it to "but never assumed office". Reasoning is that when completing the third of what have essentially been three chronological paragraphs with his death, I expected the last to be a general summing up, legacy, etc, but in fact we had more chronological career summation still to go, and it kind of jarred for me. Not a big deal, just something to consider. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, Ian, I'm not entirely happy with this article. Although he was one of the most important navy officers in Brazilian imperial history, there is little information available about him. As you can see in he bibliography, I had to use a biography published in 1870! What bothers me the most in the article, however, is the legacy section. It's one paragraph long only! Other similar articles (Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias and , for example) reveal far more of how posterity saw others. What I hope is that I find either a book that I may have missed that gives a better overview of Inhaúma's legacy or that one is published in the next few years. There is an alarming lack of interest in Brazil (my country) regarding military affairs. Unlike other nations such as the USA and the UK, we don't have many books about our military history. If four or five admirals and generals from the imperial era had biographies published in the past 100 years that's a lot. History books about that period focus far more on society and culture, a little on politics (except for the emperors) and almost nothing on warfare. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Careful, Lecen, if you go much further it'll sound like you're opposing your own nom, which would be a first in my experience... ;-) Seriously though, aside from the support from the reviewers, there appears to me to be quite sufficient detail for a FAC, and if the legacy section is not as full as you'd like it be, you can only go by what sources are available. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC) .

Aaliyah (album)

Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this as a featured article candidate because I feel it is well written, its topic is fairly notable, and it fulfills FA criteria. Dan56 (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Initial comment – first and foremost, the lead is a little too long for the article's size. We have around 23 KB of prose, but need 30 for a four-paragraph introduction. Please trim the lead down to three paragraphs, weeding out excessive detail and instead giving a more concise overview of what's to be expected further down. For example, there's quite a bit of unnecessary discussion of the song's chart performance and sales. That needs to be tightened. Overall, this seems to be an engaging article. —WP:PENGUIN · 00:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:40, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Unless another image check is needed for purposes of this review, this could be looked at as a point of reference. Dan56 (talk) 06:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Comments from Cassianto

I'm not too familiar with this young lady's work, so excuse my ignorance if I get a few things wrong. All comments come in good faith so feel free to disagree.

Lead Section
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million and raising her profile with hit soundtrack singles..." Such as?
I didnt think it was relevant enough to go into that much detail for the lead, which the previous commentator here suggested I trim to begin with. Those singles are covered well enough at Aaliyah. It's a minor detail being summarizied from the short "background" paragraph of this article. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "She started working on the album in 1998 and resumed its recording in 2000" - Did she stop midway then? If so, why was that? There was no mention that she had started recording, only that she was working on it. Two years to record an album does seem a long time.
Revised. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Upon its release, Aaliyah received very positive reviews..." The adverb offers nothing here and sounds grammatically wrong.
See comment at Critical reception. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Aaliyah subsequently shot a music video for the single "Rock the Boat" in the Bahamas, but died returning to the United States in a plane crash on August 25, 2001." - Subsequent to what? What happened prior to this as suggested?
Added a bit of what I previously trimmed from the lead to clarify. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "... but died returning to the United States in a plane crash on August 25, 2001." Might I suggest, "but died in a plane crash on a return flight to the United States on August 25 2001."
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "After her death, the album's sales skyrocketed..." hmm...not sure about "Skyrocketed". It sounds a bit magaziney.
I thought so at first after trying to find a synonym for what the source used (cited in the "commercial performance" section), but it seemed to be legit term used in economic/financial journals after looking through Google Books and News. Seems the most appropriate in this context. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Background
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million, Aaliyah graduated from high school the following year and recorded several songs for film soundtracks" - Which soundtracks? Give maybe one example here.
"Are You That Somebody?" is the soundtrack single most mentioned in the sources I researched for background on this album, so I mentioned it in the sentence following this one. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Recording
  • "He found Aaliyah to be ideal for his songwriting style" would be better
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Some might not know what "Jet" is, so I would use Jet magazine so as not to force the reader to click off to find out.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Music and lyrics
  • "A neo soul album, Aaliyah features midtempo funk songs, hip hop-textured uptempo tracks, and slow jams that draw on older soul influences, including 1970s influences." - Repetition of influences.
Done. Removed "1970s influences". Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The section overall appears to be right on the boarder with quote overuse. I does read a bit clunky if I'm honest as there are so many short quotes; for example why does "classic soul" appear in quotes? This is not praise or a view and is merely a descriptive term based on a critics perception of a particular musical genre which he likens it too.
Done. Paraphrased and copy-edited a bit. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • ""doesn't put up with unfaithful cads ('You Got Nerve'), mind games ('I Refuse'), self-impressed hunks ('Extra Smooth'), gossip and envy ('Loose Rap'), or physical abuse ('Never No More')." - Do the parenthesis appear in the actual quote?
Yes. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Songs

Looks OK.

Critical reception
  • "Aaliyah received very positive reviews from contemporary music critics" - again, "very". It's difficult to compare "very positive reviews" to "positive reviews". Surely, positive is positive isn't it?
The source cited refers to "excellent reviews", which the reviewer at this article's Good-article review suggested should be toned down, so I replaced it with "very positive". Perhaps "highly positive" then? Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Commercial performance
  • "The album debuted at number two on the Billboard 200, selling 187,000 copies in the week of August 4, 2001." - Bold claim, citation?
No it's cited, the citation immediately following that sentnce "...Although it was the highest sales week of Aaliyah's career,". I was told in last FAC not to repeat citations, that when the citation finally does appear, it implies that it's covering everything before it. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
That would be the correct advice. Is it covered by ref or 55? , to me, would suggest that it just covers Aaliyah's highest sales week claim as there is a period after the album sales. 55 would appear to cover everything else. -- Cassianto 22:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
It's that covers the highest sales week claim and the debut/sale figure preceding it. Dan56 (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll just cite it twice to avoid any potential confusion. Dan56 (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. If any one has a cause of complain, feel free to revert; it is not that serious enough for it to effect a support. -- Cassianto 01:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Accolades
  • OK

Legacy

  • OK

These are just minor remarks and overall, the article is in great shape. -- Cassianto 10:18, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Support - Very well-written, informative, and complete. Seems notable enough as well. Just two minor observations: the year-end charts published by UKChartsPlus are listed at WP:BADCHARTS, and the release history table needs !scope="row"| for consistency with other tables in the article. Other than that, excellent work. SnapSnap 04:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Removed UK year-end, added row/scope to table. Dan56 (talk) 05:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Review by Wikipedian Penguin

Support Oppose—the article has a few issues, I am afraid, ranging from prose quality to level of focus. It isn't too far, and with a little bit more work, I think we can ultimately reach a support.

Lede
  • "Aaliyah is the eponymous third and final studio album by American R&B recording artist Aaliyah, released on July 7, 2001, by Blackground Records and Virgin Records."—"eponymous" is redundant here.
Removed "eponymous"
  • "Aaliyah started working on the album in 1998 and sought to schedule its recording around her developing film career."—the second part is blurry to me. Please clarify.
Revised to "...in 1998, but rescheduled its recording around her developing film career."
  • "Upon its release, Aaliyah received very positive reviews from music critics, who praised its creative R&B production, Static's songwriting, and Aaliyah's vocal performance."—the "very" modifier does not seem useful to me. You suggested "highly" above; that would work, IMO.
Done.
  • Fused participle—"With Blackground and Virgin wanting a high charting single to increase sales..."
Would this be more correct?: "As Blackground and Virgin wanted a high charting single to increase sales..." ?
Not bad, although I would replace "as" with "because" or "since". It sounds more familiar to most readers. —WP:PENGUIN · 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "As of December 2009, it has sold 2.6 million copies, according to Nielsen SoundScan."—the tense and use of "as of" in conjunction with the date give the impression that the article has not been updated in a long time.
Rephrased as "By December, it had sold..."
  • "Aaliyah was released during a period of peak activity in R&B in the summer of 2001 and, since its initial reception, has been cited by critics as one of the best R&B albums of its time."—(1) I'm sure to a disinterested reader, "a period of peak activity in R&B" will be an unclear phrase. (2) Avoid references to seasons. Summer means one thing to someone who lives in the US, and something different to someone in, say, Chile.
The source citing the material being summarized here (in the "Legacy" section) refers to it as R&B's "golden age" during "the summer of 2001". I removed "summer" in the lead and replaced "period of peak activity" with "golden age", but could there be something synonymous with "summer" in the "Legacy" section? The timing seems pertinent to the period discussed, not simply 2001.
To be honest, "golden age" is even more unclear. Maybe, "Released in mid-2001, a period when contemporary R&B was popular, Aaliyah has been cited by critics as one of the best R&B albums of its time." I hope that does not modify the meaning of what you're trying to say. —WP:PENGUIN · 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Considering the definition, and the way it's used by the sources in the section this is summarizing, it's not referring to (only) popularity but artistic peak in the genre as well. "A period when..." gives off the impression that mid-2001 was the only such period. English-language readers should understand the phrase "golden age", as it's commonly used enough when discussing the arts & entertainment, and doesnt seem colloquial or too informal. The best I could come up with to rephrase but preserve the same meaning is "period of peak activity", or perhaps "released during an artistic and commercial high point in contemporary R&B"? "Mid-2001" is definitely better though. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I think we should stick to "period of peak activity". Second guessing, I don't think too many people will question the phrase. —WP:PENGUIN · 01:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Background
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million, Aaliyah graduated from high school the following year and recorded several songs for film soundtracks."—remove "several". It's too vague.
Done
  • Some redundancy here: "...but she postponed the recording process in order to develop an acting career"
Done.
  • "Aaliyah sought to schedule the album's recording around her film career."—likewise per lede.
Removed.
  • "which led to a starring role in the 2000 film Romeo Must Die and her accompanying soundtrack single 'Try Again'."—which led to a starring role in her accompanying soundtrack single "Try Again"?
Is this better rearranged? Dan56 (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Recording
  • "but they could not coordinate their respective schedules."—remove "respective".
Done.
  • "Most of Aaliyah was recorded at either Sony Studios in New York City or Sing Sing Studios in Melbourne, including "Loose Rap", which was done at both studios."—odd conjunction of "Most of Aaliyah" and "Loose Rap". I suggest adding "the songs for" before "Aaliah" or add "the track" before "Loose Rap".
Done.
  • "The latter song, written by past collaborator Missy Elliott, was originally recorded by Aaliyah in 1996 for One in a Million, but scrapped after that album's completion."—(1) "latter" refers to the last of two items, not any more. (2) there's a little too much passive voice here. I would rewrite this in active voice (She had recorded...", which brings me to my next point) (3) The tense should be past perfect since this is before the recording of the other tracks.
Done.
  • "Most of the album's lyrics were written by Static of R&B band Playa."—nit-picky, yes, but I strongly suggest active voice here as it sounds more impressive. So "Static of R&B band Playa wrote most of the album's lyrics."
Done.
  • "Static was a part of Aaliyah's close-knit circle of friends..."—that phrase is too colloquial and informal. Write it as something plain and simple. Also, "shared an infatuation with her during their respective careers" seems irrelevant and like unencyclopedic trivia.
Replaced "close-knit circle..." with "close group of friends". The latter would seem relevant to the nature of their working relationship and Static's subject matter/lyrics, providing context.
OK, then probably simply "was infatuated with her then". "During their respective careers" is unneeded. —WP:PENGUIN · 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
They were both infatuated with each other, not just him being infatuated with her, or do you mean that it is grammatically incorrect to "share an infatuation" with someone? Removed "during their..." Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • In the final paragraph, there's a lot of repetitive sentence structure (overuse of "which" nonrestrictive clause).
Rephrased two sentences without "which".
Seemed worthy of a link in a music article. Is it too general a term to link?
I guess it can stay owing to the context. —WP:PENGUIN · 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Aaliyah was mastered by Bernie Grundman at his eponymous studio in Los Angeles."—I think you are confusing "eponymous" with "namesake". The former refers to something or someone after which/whom something else is named. Not vice-versa, except if it's a literary/musical work (e.g. eponymous album).
Removed "eponymous".
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · 00:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Changes after the comments above. Dan56 (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Change per most recent comments. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Music and lyircs
  • I think this is more praise than general commentary—"John Mulvey of NME finds the music to be subtle and tasteful, and lacking 'bombast and histrionics.'" "To be" is redundant as well.
Removed "to be" and "tasteful".
  • "The lyrics express fervent passion and melancholic, occasionally ominous feelings about love."—remove "fervent". It's just an unnecessary intensifier here.
Done.
  • Active voice works better here, I would think—"Its themes of heartbreak and eroticism are interspersed by subtle, lighthearted humor and witty sound effects such as comical vocal manipulation."
Like this? Dan56 (talk) 04:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Right. —WP:PENGUIN · 08:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
  • What makes Citysearch a high quality reliable source for music journalism?
It is one of the reviews collected by Metacritic for this album, which they erroneously credited as "Spin Cycle" (the title of City Search's CD review section). Dan56 (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Bob Waliszewski of Plugged In observes female empowerment songs..."—maybe "female empowerment-related songs".
Changed.
  • "Hyun Kim of Vibe asserts that the album..."—replace "the album" with "Aaliayah". Too much repetition.
Done.
  • Fused participle: "According to Joshua Clover, the more experimental tracks have Aaliyah 'push notes into strange corners of syncopation's shifty architecture.'" This one's an easy fix. Something like "According to Joshua Clover, Aaliyah 'pushes notes ... ' on the more experimental tracks." However before you make changes, read the next point...
  • Joshua Clover's review does not say anything about those tracks being experimental, much less with resolution.
The 3rd paragraph of his paragraph speaks of the album in this context: "Each structure invites you inside but won't resolve ... The knowingly titled 'We Need a Resolution' holds off resolution indefinitely, dancing back from the hook...". As for "experimental", I just substituted that for what he said about the songs that "take their time finding a shape, which is then constantly defied as she pushes...". "Experimental" seemed like a more general phrase for "shape-defying", which wouldnt be clear even in music parlance.
Considering experimental music is a specific kind of music, inferring that that is what's meant by "shape-defying" is quite a loose interpretation, almost to the point of WP:OR. —WP:PENGUIN · 17:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Good point. I'll just use the quote then, "on the more 'shape-defying' tracks". Dan56 (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Songs
  • Fused participle in second clause—" The song leaves its hook unresolved, and its music plays backwards after Timbaland's rap, with a reversed loop of the vocal "where were you last night" echoing the female protagonist's sentiment."
Revised.
  • "'Loose Rap' features subtle Neptunes-styled electronica, aquatic sounds, and velvety harmonies by Aaliyah, who declares '"it ain't just rhythm and blues.'"—add a comma after "declares".
Done.
  • "... who instructs her lover on how to please her sexually and equates her erotic high to a drug high."—the second part is unclear.
It's being used in the sense of a period of euphoria; the source uses the phrase as it is, so could "high" be linked to the wiktionary page for clarity?
  • "... Aaliyah sings with an emboldened delivery over harsh guitars and aggressive synthesizers."—specifically, "harsh-sounding guitars".
Done.
  • "It developed from a conversation between Aaliyah and Static about how men try to act suave."—this took me awhile to get. Maybe "was inspired be"?
Done.
  • Fused participle—"... with the latter song drawing particularly on Detroit techno and industrial rock."
Revised.
  • "'What If' angrily threatens an unfaithful lover and by extension other men of that ilk."—woah. That's a little direct. I suggest attribution to a critic, because unless it was Aaliyah or a co-writer who said that, it's a very bold assertion. It's either that or just saying "addresses" instead of "angrily threatens". And maybe "and by extension similar men" instead of using the largely unfamiliar word "ilk".
It's not asserting that Aaliyah, but the song's narrator (which the lyrics seem to: "We'll burn you (oh), we'll cut you (oh) / We'll kill you") Yes, woah indeed. Changed it to "The song's narrator angrily..." and "...by extension similar men".
  • One concern I have is that there's quite an overlap between these two sections, in that specific tracks are discussed in the Music and lyrics section as well. Would you be open to a merge, or something to deal with this repetition?
The only overlap is citing a few songs as examples occasionally for more general aspects of the album. This already seems long enough. I used a "songs" section to distribute the information available on specific songs as recommended at MOS:ALBUM and from what I've seen at more recent FA articles like OK Computer, although not as large. Dan56 (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · 21:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Changes since. Dan56 (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm OK with the responses and will move on. —WP:PENGUIN · 08:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Something needs to be done about the general structure. The section reads a bit too list-y and repetitive. Consider connecting sentences and commenting on how one track effectively transitions to another. —WP:PENGUIN · 11:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
  • No sources really discuss the songs in that vein, that is critics, and the interviews are pretty superficial and lack that kind of depth. Merging them with the preceding section would make it overlong and awkward (ex. thought about placing the line about "Read Between the Lines", a song with samba and Latin percussion, after "...particularly on Timbaland's songs, Latin timbres", but that song wasnt produced by him, and timbre is generally unrelated to rhythm), and there isnt enough information to move/create new song articles (MOS:ALBUM#). The only connection is track order :( Dan56 (talk) 11:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
    Bummer! Oh well, consider merging some sentences maybe, talking about two tracks in one statement? That would improve the flow. I do think something can be done, even without introducing information. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
This was the best I could come up with. Rearranged the details so that a musical aspect of one song is followed by that of the next, and then that song's lyrical aspect being followed by that of another, and so on. Dan56 (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Critical reception
  • I'd briefly mention when the album was released as one sentence as we are not told this and this info is tucked away to the bottom in a less-than-noticeable table.
It's mentioned in the second sentence of the second paragraph in the "commercial performance" section; the opening of that section mentions the chart debut week, which also indicates the time of release; I could work it in there if you still feel it's necessary? Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, please. Just one line. —WP:PENGUIN · 17:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I think "described" is better than "cited" here—"He found the music's textures 'scintillating' and cited the album's 'hallmark' as..."
Revised, as part of the bottom two comments. Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The prose is a bit too repetitive. The sentences all begin the same way (critic + magazine). Please try to vary this a little.
  • Also a problem is the density of quotations. The section is a WP:QUOTEFARM, and as a result, the flow suffers. I recommend you paraphrase and trim out some quotations and not make this section read like an aggregation of review samples.
Done, although you would be a better judge of this. Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Better, although I think "examine" is too awkward here. It's hard usually to think of better wording than what's in the source, but perhaps you could think of something. Also, AV Club's Nathan Robin's paraphrase is a little close to the original. You can remove "in her own right" since it's vague. —WP:PENGUIN · 23:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
How about "commended her for exploring her strengths and fantasies"? For the other one, Rabin seems to be talking about her not being "overshadowed by her collaborators" when he says "in her own right", so could I revise it as "establishes Aaliyah as a significant artist unobscured by her collaborators"? Dan56 (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
That looks good. Also, in fewer words, would "establishes Aaliyah as a significant independent artist" work? Regarding "strengths and fantasies", that's good. You can implement that. —WP:PENGUIN · 17:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "He cited 'We Need a Resolution' and 'U Got Nerve' as highlights and quippedly called Aaliyah 'a slave to her beats, but a proud slave'."—once again, the use of "cited" here is awkward. And "quippedly": is that word really necessary?
Christgau's honorable mention ratings feature a clever, witty remark, following by songs he cites as highlights. Referring to something, especially in praise, is one of the definitions for "cite", although not the primary one, but I dont know if one can "describe" a "hallmark"/characteristic of something. Assuming that these are grammatically correct, this book and this book use either phrase. Removed "quippedly". Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
I will revisit once these comments have been resolved. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:52, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Commercial performance
  • "However, after its completion, she and several members of her crew returning to the United States were killed in a plane crash on August 25."—sounds a bit rough. Iron this out and tighten it, so something like, "But after its completion, she and several crew members who were returning to the United States died in a plane crash on August 25."
Replaced with that. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "More than" is usually clearer and better prose than just "over".
Replaced. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • This is me nitpicking, but in the second paragraph, the use of the word "week" gets very repetitive. I understand however that this is a very difficult issue to ammend (there're hardly any synonyms for the word). If you can amend this, that would be great. If you can't, it's fine.
  • As per one of the exceptions to WP:MOSNUM's rule of thumb, comparable numbers should be expressed consistently as numerals or be spelled out. So, for example, this is inconsistent, "from number 19 to number one". It is suggested that we write out all chart positions with one consistent format.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Accolades
  • Fused participle—"Aaliyah was named the best album of 2001 by Slant Magazine, with the publication's editor Sal Cinquemani calling it..."
Separated the two parts. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
  • There's very little sentence structure variation in this section. Please do some copy editing to improve the flow and make the prose seem refreshing.
Mixed it up a bit. (diff) Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Couldn't we just say "the 2000s" here: "In 2010, Aaliyah was named the 72nd best album of 'the aughts' by Slant Magazine."?
It could be confused as the magazine's premature look at the entire century, which might be why they used that term, but would "...best album of the 2000s decade by Slant..." sound better? Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Sure. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · 17:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Legacy
  • "Along with her budding film career, the album was a part of Aaliyah's breakout year in 2001."—need a more formal term for "budding".
"Burgeoning"? Dan56 (talk)
  • "Prior to her death, Aaliyah had planned to embark on the largest concert tour of her career in support of the album."—keep it plain: "Before her death..."
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "...and mostly left unreleased due to internal conflict and legal complications between the label, Aaliyah's family, and producers."—"due to" is adjectival and does not modify verbs or adjectives ("left unreleased"). You can use "because of", which can be used universally.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Sentence structure gets a bit repetitive in the third paragraph.
  • I see you use present tense when talking about jouranlists' actions "The Guardian cites..." but use past tense in the critical response section. A more consistent usage throughout would be preferred.
Mixed it up slightly, and changed the tense. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I think present tense is also used elsewhere, such as in the music and lyrics section. Additionally, in the legacy section, you missed this one: "The Guardian cites Aaliyah as the pinnacle of R&B's golden age at the turn of the century." —WP:PENGUIN · 12:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Done.
Track listing
  • Just a question: do track lists need citations?
There's nothing at MOS:ALBUM#Track listing or that Wikiproject's talk page about it. I've always assumed the citation(s) for the credits below the track listing take care of the track listing as well, since they go hand-in-hand. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Year-end charts
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Changes since. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
General
Removed links. The second mention of Erlewine's name is so far between (13 paragraphs after the 1st mention) that readers might not remember, and the WP:LASTNAME guideline is under the manual-of-style for biographies, so would leaving it be better for clarity? Dan56 (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem; I agree with you. —WP:PENGUIN · 21:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Changes. Dan56 (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
BTW, if/when you're done here, would you like to comment at discussion regarding the ratings template? Dan56 (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Sure, I have done that. —WP:PENGUIN · 01:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, I'm happy and reread the article a few times, and have just relooked at the songs section. I'm happy with the improvements made and am glad to add my support. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Support great job with the article no problems detected. Best, Jona 20:35, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Image check - mostly all OK (initial check already done per article talk). Sources and authors provided, just one minor issue:

  • File:Aaliyah_-_More_Than_a_Woman_sample.ogg - Generally ok, but the "purpose of use" is a bit generic. You should try to explain with 1-2 details, why the reader needs to listen to that audio to better understand the article (f.e. mention the style or certain characteristics of the song, that can't be conveyed with text alone).
  • Something odd is going on with the fair-use template for audio samples (showing "Additional" in bold twice), but that's not a problem for your FA here - OK.
  • Other images are OK (fair-use as infobox image, 2 images PD-own). GermanJoe (talk) 08:51, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Done. Dan56 (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
That was quick :), thanks. Status updated. GermanJoe (talk) 09:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 18:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC) .

Hurricane Debbie (1961)

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Hurricane Debbie in 1961 was one of the most powerful storms to impact Ireland on record. It brought destructive winds in excess of 100 mph to western parts of the country, damaging or destroying many homes and leaving thousands without power. Across the British Isles, 18 people lost their lives and damage exceeded US$50 million. I believe this article qualifies for featured candidate as I have exhausted both free and paid services to obtain the most comprehensive account of this particular hurricane. I hope you all enjoy reading this article as much as I enjoyed writing it! Cheers, Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Support, with the caveat that I reviewed it for GA. That being said, here are some last comments.

  • "during September" - in the opening sentence, should that be changed to "in September"?
  • "however, operationally," - remove one of these adverbs.
  • "Once clear of the islands, data on the storm became sparse and it is uncertain what took place with the storm over the following several days as it tracked west-northwestward and later northward." - a comma would be lovely somewhere in here, and maybe change one of the "storm" to "Debbie"
  • "Maintaining this intensity for over a day" - I think "this" should be something like "its peak", or something, given it's the start of a new paragraph.
  • Probably self-explanatory, but I think you should clarify somewhere, perhaps as a note, that all damage totals are in that 1961's currency.
  • "only a handful of which were serious" - handful? :/
  • I think the specifics on the fatalities should be in the same paragraph where you mention the death total.
  • "30,000 trees were felled" - that verb phrasing seems weird to me, but IDK.
  • UK paragraph is pretty long. Perhaps split into two?

That's it. Overall, looks pretty good. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Made all the corrections. Thanks for the review Hink! Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Any comments by the nominator on these? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not getting to this earlier. I linked corn to maize since that's the intended link and delinked a few instances of Belmullet and Norway. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Fine, I'm aware that in Ireland "corn" often refers to the oats, and I don't have access to the source, so I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't a misunderstanding here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

Comments

  • HURDAT is not good enough to prove that Debby made landfall in Ireland, since the NOAA report says that Debby skirted around the west coast of Ireland. I also note that the supposed point of landfall is less than 2 km away from the sea, which would suggest to me that it didnt make landfall and just passed near the island.Jason Rees (talk) 18:21, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Support – I don't like supporting articles without bringing up a few comments, but I can't find anything worth mentioning. Nice work. :\ TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Support – Nice job on totally revamping an article that was originally an idea of mine.--12george1 (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by SandyGeorgia

Oppose. Am I correct in assuming that the previous three supports are from hurricane editors? Independent review is needed.

  1. Hurricane Debbie was one of the most powerful cyclones to strike Ireland in September on record.
    Opening sentence, I'm left wondering why the most powerful "in September" ... what is special about September?
    Shouldn't "on record" be after "most powerful cyclones"? Unsure ...
    Changed order, but I think the fact that it's the strongest storm to hit a country in a particular month is pretty notable. I'm sure we'd have the same if we had a record storm in April in the US. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    OK, but it reads ... funny. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  2. Tracking generally westward, the system eventually moved off the coast of Senegal on September 5 ...
    What does "eventually" add here? Redundant?
    This was done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  3. See here and here for discussions of the overuse of however; not all of them used here seem necessary.
    It's used once now in the whole article. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  4. Unsettled weather associated with the storm resulted in a plane crash that killed 60 people in the islands during this time.
    What does "during this time" add? Please screen for redundant prose.
    CB removed it. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  5. Once clear of the islands, data on the storm became sparse, and it is uncertain what took place with Debbie over the following several days as it tracked west-northwestward and later northward.
    Once clear of the islands, the storm tracked west-northwestward and later northward, but other data for several days is sparse ??? "With Debbie" seems repetitive, perhaps a different construction like this can be used to solve that.
    Changed. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  6. Regardless of which took place, the system deepened as it neared the British Isles, ...
    What does "regardless of which took place" add? Redundant.
    To highlight the uncertainty whether it was tropical or not. I personally feel it adds value. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  7. Throughout the country, 12 people lost their lives in relation to Debbie and damage was estimated at US$40–50 million.
    What does "Throughout the country" add? "To Debbie"? Damage was estimated at US$40–50 million and 12 people died.
    To emphasize Ireland the country, not just the island. I changed the other bit. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

That is only the lead; prose review is needed ... mostly for redundancy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Five days, no response from nominator-- unwatching. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
To be fair to the nominator, he and others appear to have dealt with some of your issues but i think he is currently busy in real life dealing with his university stuff. I will double check your comments against the article later.Jason Rees (talk) 23:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I've gone through the article a few times and made some changes, namely condensing and removing redundancies. Please let me know if there are still issues with the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Just noting here that I have contacted Sandy on her talk page to make sure that it's known I've addressed the issues despite the page unwatch. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! I've struck my oppose because I don't have time for further review, but did see that extevensive prose changes have been made. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (PD NOAA, own work, NASA). Sources and authors provided. GermanJoe (talk) 09:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Quick Comment – Just wondering, any reason why you have travelled instead of traveled, as it appears other words like 'center' are written in American-spelling. TheAustinMan 00:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Changed all instances of 'center' to 'centre' (except for proper names) Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

  • I should have asked for a spotcheck of sources earlier in this FAC's existence so have performed it myself:
    • FN03: no issues
    • FN09a: no issues
    • FN17b: no issues
    • FN24: no issues
  • Query: following up on TheAustinMan's comment, is it the convention that hurricane articles are written in AmEng, even when the storm damages the British Isles? Something to do with them being Atlantic hurricanes? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
    • I dont think there is such a convention, i believe it just comes down to what the person writing the article is used too.Jason Rees (talk) 01:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Mmm. I can't see a comparable FA of an Atlantic hurricane that struck the British Isles, so there seems to be no precedent. ENGVAR's guideline of using the form of English most closely related to the subject might come into play, though I suppose some might question whether a storm can have 'strong national ties'... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:23, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Nice read. Meets criteria.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment "the most powerful cyclone on record to strike Ireland in September" sounds strange. Was there a more powerful cyclone in another month? Is September known for it's powerful cyclones? Why is the month important here? Mattximus (talk) 22:41, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC) .

British military intervention in the Sierra Leone Civil War

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
This article, like my previous nomination, is the result of a microgrant from Wikimeda UK, who kindly purchased most of the books used in researching these articles. For nearly ten years, the West refused to get involved in the brutal and incredibly bloody civil war in Sierra Leone, until the rebels reneged on a peace agreement that everybody had hoped meant the end of the war. With the UN peacekeeping force on the brink of collapse in May 2000, the United Kingdom sent an entire battalion of paratroopers and its largest naval task force assembled since the Falklands War, setting in motion a chain of events that finally brought the war to an end.

The article has had a successful GA review and MilHist A-class review, and there might be a few relatively minor issues, but I'm reasonably confident that if it isn't quite at FA standard, it's very close. It's a relatively long article (c. 7,000 words), but I hope people will read it and find it interesting. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

SchroCat

Comments by SchroCat
Lead

  • Pipe Sierra Leone Army to Republic of Sierra Leone Armed Forces?
    • Specifically contra-indicated by WP:R2D, and the SLA could sustain an article of its own if somebody were to create one.
  • Should that be "Sierra Leonean army"?
    • It should be, yes, just like it should be "Sierra Leonean Civil War", but both are the correct proper nouns.

An excellent article in a topic and area of the world often overlooked. Only a couple of minor points, which struck me, but if you're happy with the way you have them I'm not going to argue. Well done on this: it may be long, but it's a very comprehensive and tightly put together article. – SchroCat (talk) 09:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Support Very nice article indeed. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review

- spotchecks not done

  • Could we flip the order of general and specific refs?
    • Someone raised this at my last FAC and I don't see the problem, but if the current format really bugs people, I suppose I wouldn't fight over it.
  • FN10, 14, 30: page formatting
    • All fixed.
  • FN56: which Connaughton?
    • 2002.
  • FN67, 99: punctuation
    • Fixed.
  • Abrahamsen: check authors
    • Don't know what happened there.
  • Connaughton 2002: missing location and publisher. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Dank

Comments

  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 02:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • But see User_talk:Dank#However. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I've just reviewed the nom's edits since I copyedited. I can't support, although it's not bad enough to oppose. If a copy editor wants to give it a look and ping me about anything, ping away. - Dank (push to talk) 13:24, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Dan, you're a great copy-editor and I always appreciate your help with my articles, but not all the edits you made here were an improvement. I know you're trying to solve issues with readability and ambiguity, but some of your edits replaced one issue with another or introduced inaccuracies. Can we meet in the middle somewhere? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
      • I don't know, Harry, I'm sick today (which isn't helping my mood), I'll think about it tomorrow. - Dank (push to talk) 03:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
        • I'll stay in the "neutral" column. When you reverted some of my changes, you reinstated a number of things that we don't usually allow at FAC, so I can't support, but you've got two supports already so you should be fine. The delegates and many reviewers will spot the problems and help out. I apologize, I've got two huge projects this month and I'm taking a break from reviewing and copyediting. - Dank (push to talk) 10:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, I guess we're on our own here, Harry. I've made the following edits, let me know what doesn't work for you.
  • "The SLA had been confined to barracks and had handed over most of its weapons in accordance with the Lomé Agreement, which led foreign diplomats in the country to estimate ...": "which" dangles, and the causation isn't clear. I went with: "After the SLA had been confined to barracks and had handed over most of its weapons in accordance with the Lomé Agreement, foreign diplomats in the country estimated ...". "After" conveys approximately the right sense and is more common at FAC for this usage.
    • My problem with this is that it seems to suggest that the RUF began their advance, then the SLA handed in it weapons, and that the "within a week" estimate is by the way. What I'm trying to convey is that the RUF were advancing and the SLA had already been disarmed sow ere incapable of stopping the RUF, and that is what prompted diplomats to estimate that the RUF could be in Freetown within a week. -HJM
  • "The ARG en route, the paras": You haven't defined what a "para" is, and "The ARG en route" is called an "absolute construction"; like a WP:PLUSING construction, it's something that makes copyeditors stop and wonder if it might not be better to say explicitly what the connection is between that phrase and the rest of the sentence. I reverted back to my version.
    • That they were paratroopers or members of the Parachute Regiment isn't that important, so that can be changed to "soldiers" or similar; the parentheses suggest to me that they were able to deploy quickly because they were paratroopers rather than because they knew the ARG would be there shortly. -HJM
    • I really don't get the problem with "the ARG en-route". I think it's quite a common construction in British English and it makes perfect sense to me. -HJM
  • "they were picked up by RAF Chinook and flown to Freetown": Constructions like "by helicopter" have more of the sense of an adverbial phrase than a noun phrase. That is, "She left by 4:15 to Paddington" is silly compared with "She left on the 4:15 to Paddington", and different people have different triggers for when it starts sounding silly; the more specific you are after "by", the sillier it gets. To be safe, let's treat it as a noun phrase, and while I'm here, let's get rid of the passive voice, too: "An RAF Chinook picked them up and flew them to Freetown".
    • I'm not wild about that but the meaning is the same so I can live with it. -HJM
  • This reversion re-introduces a lot of problems, Harry:
    • "the only force" seems to be applied to a compound subject (i.e. plural in sense);
      • Precisely. The SLA joined forces with the "Unholy Alliance" and they effectively fought as a single force. -HJM
    • "however";
      • "However" isn't a dirty word; there are legitimate uses for it, and I think he wholesale removal of any individual word is something that should be discouraged. I can live with your re-write, but I preferred it the other way. -HJM
    • "in order" (twice, in close proximity);
      • You seem to have got both instances of "in order"; thanks -HJM
    • conciseness ("allowing re-arming of the SLA" already implies that it needed to be re-armed to effective, so you didn't need to say that separately ... consider using my "To restructure the SLA and allow it to re-arm"): the em-dash isn't wrong, but it adds emphasis that doesn't accomplish anything that I can see;
      • I'm happy enough with your version of this -HJM
    • and the "which" bit is tricky ... it appears to some to be nonrestrictive, but it's actually restrictive, so it needs "that" and no comma.
      • And you've got this as well.

Your best bet here might be to revert back to my version and then change only the things that you're sure need changing ... that will make it easier for me to see what you're saying. - Dank (push to talk) 15:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Nick-D

Support I commented on this article's A class review, and think that the FA criteria are also met. Nick-D (talk) 10:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Image review

by FunkMonk (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Here's a far better map for the infobox:
    • What's better about it?
The resolution. FunkMonk (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Ceoil

Support - Very impressive work. Read half during the week, the rest tonight. My interest was held through-out, though its a long page it does not go off topic and is consistently engaging. Ceoil (talk) 21:56, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:26, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

Just one sticking point for me, Harry: I've gathered that Operation Palliser was the code name for the large-scale intervention, especially since Operation Palliser redirects to this article, but the connection could be made clearer. The opening reads "The United Kingdom began a military intervention in Sierra Leone in May 2000. Although small numbers of British personnel had been previously deployed, Operation Palliser was the first large-scale intervention by British forces during the Sierra Leone Civil War." I think it'd help to alter this to "The United Kingdom began a military intervention in Sierra Leone in May 2000 under the code name Operation Palliser. Although small numbers of British personnel had been previously deployed, this was the first large-scale intervention by British forces during the Sierra Leone Civil War." or something along similar lines. Further, the first time Palliser is mentioned in the main body is in a section heading. I think we should be told before that point that the name of the operation was Palliser, with a citation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:00, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I think I've got this for the most part. I've added an explicit mention of the codename in the "Operation Palliser" section, and suppose I could shoehorn a mention of the codename in earlier in the body, but I don't think it would work very well. "Palliser" was the codename for the original deployment (ostensibly for an evacuation), but not the entire intervention (which is why I redirected it to this article). I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a section heading being the first mention of a codename—the same is true for the sections on Operation Khukri and Operation Barras. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
That's all fine now, tks Harry. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC) .

Kareena Kapoor

Kareena Kapoor Khan is an Indian actress who appears in Bollywood films. In July 2008, the article reached a GA status, and subsequently went on to have an unsuccessful FAC. Since then, a lot of hard work has gone into improving the article and bringing it to the place it is today. Now, I think it meets the FA criteria. Please leave your comments, and I'll be more than happy to address any of them. -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments

TIs is mostly mostly very good, but a few quibbles.

  • Rs. 840 million—please use lakhs and crores, else Indians like me will need to do some mental math to understand. Non-Indians have the millions of dollars right next to it anyway.
Done
  • since we have an abundance of free photos, why not use more? Around one for every sub-section would be nice. Try to add relevant captions, like about her "trademark" lips in Pubic image section.
To be honest, adding "around one for every sub-section" would unnecessarily increase the size of the article; I've only added images that help contribute to the article in some way. For example, the image of Kapoor with her mother and sister in the "Early life and background" section shows that the two women have played pivotal roles in her life. And this has been confirmed by Kapoor in several of her interviews. (I've added a new image in the "Public image and character" section discussing her trademark lips.)
  • surprised there's no mention of her size zero and the ensuing controversy.
There wasn't really a so-called "controversy" about size zero. A lot was written about it by the media but other than that nothing much. Maybe we could say something like: "Kapoor's off-screen life has been subject to wide media coverage in India with frequent press coverage of her weight and diet."
  • "would show more a more thoughtful"—huh?
I took that from the source without realizing the mistake they made. Fixed it.
  • golden-hearted prostitute—I've heard of a hooker with a heart of gold, but is golden-hearted prostitute a common/acceptable phrase?
The description of her character in Chameli is taken from here; it is pretty much the same thing as "hooker with a heart of gold".
  • subject of considerable critical analysis—source doesn't back this, and only talks of intense tabloid interest.
The source states: "While her choice of movies continues to range from interesting to objectionable, Kareena has mastered the art of balancing blockbusters with bloopers". In a way, it is critically analysed, but I'll try finding another source. (A new source was added as well as another one which already exists within the article.)
  • total film count? Worth adding in the lead?
  • over linking—villain, leading lady, Bangladeshi, Netherlands etc. please review throughout, and just these.
IMO, I really don't think we need to add her total film count; the same might apply to the over linking part. I agree that some of the terms like 'leading lady' or 'villain' do not need to be linked but others like 'Netherlands', etc do.
  • Stage performances is just a smorgasbord of actors' names. I suggest removing all and replacing them with a "performing with several Bollywood contemporaries" to the first sentence.122.172.14.75 (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
We can't always say "performing with several Bollywood contemporaries"; it might get a bit too repetitive. As you can see that the section combines both (listing actors' names as well as several Bollywood stars).
Thank you for your comments. If possible I would recommend you to get a username—not only will this benefit me but you as well. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:58, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Comments
Just a few initial comments now, more to come.
  • In the lead, you should probably say "lesser-publicised independent films".
Done
  • "Her melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham.... What do you mean by "her melodrama"?
Tweaked
  • In the lead, Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham is mentioned as her "greatest" commercial success to date. I don't think "greatest" is the right word to use. Also, I don't see the point of mentioning that, because it was neither her first commercial success nor her biggest.
Tweaked. I agree that K3G wasn't her "first commercial success" but the reason why it is mentioned is because it was her first "worldwide" success. Also, prior to 3I, K3G was still her biggest success to date.
  • The quote in the second line of the career section, "it was probably destined that I was not to be in the film. After all, it was a launch for his son. The whole focus was on the boy. Now I am glad I did not do the movie" would sound better if it were trimmed and written as part of the sentence.
Tweaked; removed the last part of the quote.
  • In "...but these negative reviews motivated her to improve as an actress by accepting more demanding roles." can be changed to "...but these negative reviews motivated her to accept more demanding roles".
Done
  • The sentence " The film depicts an online robbery and the Mumbai underworld in which her character, Neha Mehra, becomes involved." is confusing. What does she get involved in? The robbery or the underworld?
Tweaked
  • "Omkara was embraced by critics...", not sure if "embraced" is the right word in this context for a dictionary.
Tweaked
  • "Following Omkara Kapoor stopped acting for a short time.." does not sound right. How about "she took a short break" etc.
Done
  • "She later described this period as a way of "finally getting to do the things I have always wanted to do"" Is this important? If yes, then it would be useful to elaborate on it. --smarojit 12:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Removed—now that I think of it, it was kind of redundant. -- Bollywood Dreamz 16:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
A few quick style comments Support
  • I see very many hacked up modified quotes. For example:
"were never officially divorced ... ... liv separately."
"n the best performance of her career so far, leads Mahi's character through the murky labyrinth of ambition, rivalry and self-destructive tricks of survival in the rat race. Though her character is inconsistent furnishes ... with a rare vulnerability and an exceptional inner life"
I think the second one is missing some ... before the , but why do this as opposed to either paraphrasing or quoting directly? It may look to the reader that you are trying to bend the quotes to your liking.
One of the main reasons why I "hacked up" quotes was because they were too long. I've made some adjustments (1st quote: Removing the modifications and sourcing it like a regular sentence; 2nd quote: Paraphrasing it and only quoting the last part.)
Good, but there are several others. Please scan the article for more places where the quotes can be simplified. BollyJeff | talk 16:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I've simplified wherever it's needed. Let me know if you have any more concerns! -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Here is one more: " the worst success ratio among her contemporaries Kapoor is effortlessly honest in her performances". The first and second parts are 6 paragraphs apart (not necessarily related), and the first two words are yours. Looks like it could be a form of cherrypicking, original research, or synthesis. BollyJeff | talk 02:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Rewrote and tweaked it. -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • This article seems to have a more liberal use of parenthesis in the text in places where I normally see commas. Intentional?
While copy-editing the article, User:Miniapolis felt that using parentheses would break up long sentences and hopefully make them easier to follow. I thought that made sense! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz 16:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I also felt in some instances the parenthesis could be removed. Indeed I myself did so in one instance. Minniapolis is a very seasoned copy-editors, so I think we can stick to his/her suggestion unless someone objects.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Following the release of Heroine, Kapoor married Khan on 16 October 2012" There are some other Khans mentioned in this section, but not Saif Ali Khan (except in the heading). His name should definitely be spelled out fully in this spot.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • This may seem picky, but there are only 3 quotations that have the punctuation inside the quote vs around 40 that have it outside. According to the rules in MOS:LQ, it is likely that there should be more than just 3 of the former.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • All of the awards and nominations after 3 idiots are not covered by the source; I did not check the awards prior to that date. Maybe it is best not to rely on one source for all the awards. This link may help though: newer BH BollyJeff | talk 15:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
That was the old BH link and I didn't realize that it didn't cover the newer awards/nominations. I have used the newer BH link to source all her new awards/nominations. -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
More comments Support
The article is extremely interesting to read, but I am nitpicking on the prose, as it has to be of an excellent standard.
  • "Kapoor was initially cast to make her debut" ... doesn't sound too encyclopedic. Also, the quote (as mentioned in the previous set of comments) still doesn't sound interesting. Maybe paraphrasing would help.
Tweaked. As for the quote, I've completely removed it and paraphrased it.
  • In the description of Refugee, the part "known simply as Refugee" is redundant. Later, you can write "...girl who falls in love with Bachchan's character".
Done
  • For Mujhe Kuch Kehna Hai, instead of writing " A review of her performance in The Hindu noted that " you can simply say "The Hindu noted that..."
Done
  • In the first paragraph of the critical acclaim section, "However, when the director again approached her a year later she agreed to do the film; she now viewed it as an opportunity to demonstrate her acting range" can be changed to "However, when Mishra approached her for the second time, she agreed; she viewed it as an opportunity to demonstrate her acting range".
Done
  • In the same paragraph there is a line that says "...study the dress and mannerisms of sex workers". What do you mean by "study the dress"?
Tweaked
  • Same paragraph, "another reviewer". Who?
Tweaked
  • A few paragraphs later, it should be "protagonist of the 2005 drama Bewafaa" and not "in ... Bewafaa".
Done
  • The review by Nikhat Kazmi for Bewafaa has no quotation marks.
That's because we have paraphrased the quote and hence it doesn't require quotation marks.
  • Last line of the same paragraph, " Kapoor's performance was generally enjoyed by critics". Replace "enjoyed" with "well received".
Done
  • In the next paragraph, what do you mean by "portrayed the Desdemona character"?
Tweaked
  • " It premiered at the 2006 Cannes Film Festival, and was also selected for screening at the Cairo International Film Festival" ==> " It premiered at the 2006 Cannes Film Festival, and was screened at the Cairo International Film Festival".
Done
  • "While shooting Jab We Met, Kapoor and Shahid ended their three-year relationship". Change to "While filming for Jab We..... three-year long relationship"
Done
  • "During this period, speculation began to surface that she was dating actor Saif Ali Khan" ==> "During this period, there was speculation in the media that she was dating...".
Done
  • A paragraph later, "Set in Los Angeles, it was the first Indian film in history to be shot at Universal Studios and featured cameo appearances by Hollywood actors". The "in history" is redundant here.
Done
  • Same paragraph, "... a woman under house arrest after discovering her husband is a terrorist". Sounds confusing. Needs to be re-worded.
Tweaked
  • Next paragraph, "On acting with Khan, Kapoor revealed that it was "a dream come true" and stated that her journey as an actress was "finally complete"". This sounds like a fan gushing about a star. I don't see any point in including this.
Removed; you do make a valid point.
  • "Kapoor had further success in 2011 as love interest for Salman Khan in the romantic drama Bodyguard". Missing "the" before love interest. And should be "...of Salman Khan's character"
Done
  • Same paragraph. What do you mean by the "most popular film of the year"? Unclear.
It means that it was the highest-grossing film of the year in India. If you take a look at the article, it always says "highest-grossing", "one of the highest-grossing", etc. To change it up a bit, I decided to use the "most popular film of the year".
I understand that you did that to avoid being monotonous. But the term "popular" is vague. How and with whom was it popular? --smarojit 06:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Tweaked; now says India's highest-earning film of the year. -- Bollywood Dreamz 01:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The "2012-present" section begins with "she followed it". As it is the beginning of a new section, drop the "she" and change the line.
Done
  • "Witty young woman" has been used to describe her character in both Yuva and Ek Main Aur Ekk Tu. Can be modified.
Done
  • The revenue of Ek Main Aur Ekk Tu is unsourced.
I'm unable to find the source that I originally used from BOI for its revenue. However, I found a new source and have modified it to that.
  • "Heroine, a drama revolving around the Bollywood film industry through Kapoor's viewpoint as Mahi Arora, a faded star." Not a good sentence. How about "...the Bollywood film industry; Kapoor was cast as Mahi Arora, a fading star". Or maybe something better.
Tweaked
  • "Kapoor will focus on familiarizing herself with up-to-date global affair issues and watching several news documentaries" ==> "Kapoor will familiarise herself with the latest global affairs and watch several news documentaries".
Done
As of now, that's about it. --smarojit 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the kind works Smaro! I really appreciate you taking the time in giving me your inputs! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz 23:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment on footnote style There are discrepancies. I see in some newspaper sources, you have mentioned the name of the publisher, while in others you have not. The name of publisher should be present either in all newspaper footnotes, or none (obviously mentioning in none is the easier option). Rediff.com, a website, has not been italicised, but indiatimes, another website, has been italicised (I think most of the websites are not in italics, which is a god style to follow consistently). CNN-IBN, a V channel, should not be italicised. I think Mid Day name should not use the particular style (MiD DAY) of its logo, just mention as Mid Day.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I did list the publishers for all newspaper sources befores but User:Legolas2186 mentioned that it wasn't important to add well-known publishers for some newspaper sources. In the case of websites, they shouldn't be italicised; Rediff.com is a website; the reason why I italicised Indiatimes was because I thought it was a newspaper. -- Bollywood Dreamz 01:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
According to Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Italic_face, websites may or may not be italicised, and magzine websites are usually italicised. However, what I have seen so far is it is more important to maintain consistency within a given article. Regarding publishers, again, consistency within a given article is more important, since publisher parameter is optional. In the FARC of Kolkata, SandyGeorgia pointed out this. Thi apies for location as well. Also, "well-known"ness may differ among readers. So, consistency is perhaps more important.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Done. To maintain consistency: a) Rm the publisher parameter for all newspaper sources, b) Left all websites non-italicised, and c) All magazine websites/journals are italicised. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Support as a contributor to the article. I've long believed it is FA standard and seems to have been improved further. I'd use File:Kapoor at Gitanjali launch2.jpg as the main image though.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Random spotchecking

  • Sentence "According to Kapoor, the name "Kareena" was derived from the book Anna Karenina, which her mother read while she was pregnant with her." Source verifies this; however, source does not indicate this was said by Kareena herself. Also, the sentence seems a copy-paste from the source, it needs to be tweaked.
Replaced back to the original source where Kapoor (herself) says that her name was derived from the book Anna Karenina. -- Bollywood Dreamz 20:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "...on her mother's side she is Sindhi". Source verifies.
  • "... inspired by the films of Bollywood actresses Nargis and Meena Kumari.". Source verifies.
  • "her mother, who worked at several jobs to support her daughters until Karisma debuted..." Source says, "Mum was always doing something, she single-handedly brought us up. She has a real estate business apart from other small businesses.". I would accept that.
  • "...she studied commerce for two years at Mithibai College in Vile Parle (Mumbai), but later confessed that she only studied there because it was close to her family." Source verifies. The word "home' is probably better than 'family" in this case.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz 20:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "...Several days into the filming, however, she abandoned the project; Kapoor later explained that she had benefited by not doing the film since more prominence was given to the director's son". source verifies this.

Will continue later.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Continuing random spotchecks

  • Taran Adarsh quote n Refugee. Source checks out.
  • "...drama Mujhe Kucch Kehna Hai, which became one of the highest-earning films of the year." Source lists the film at 9th position in 25 top-earners. So, although the statement in article is true, perhaps some softer statement would be more suitable, such as ,"...became a hit'.
Tweaked -- Bollywood Dreamz 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "... with some critics noting a distinct progression from her earlier roles.' (Regarding Fida). Source checks out.
  • "...the BBC describing her as "a pure natural". Source checks out.
  • "While shooting for Jab We Met, Kapoor and Shahid ended their three-year relationship." Source checks out.
  • "...the tantalisingly seductive prostitute, Rosie...". Copied from here. However, it is just a few words, so could be acceptable. At best, this can be put within a quotation, and attributed to the source.
Sourced -- Bollywood Dreamz 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Talaash eventually emerged as an international success with revenues of 174 crore (US$31.67 million)". Source checks out.
  • "...she would be launching her own line of clothing, becoming the first Indian actress to do so" Source checks out.
  • "... the book was well received by critics selling 10,000 copies within its first twenty days" the numbers are verified. Well-received by the critics may be acceptable, too.
  • "... Kapoor has gained a reputation for discussing her public and private life with no reservations". this source verifies.
So does the other source which is also used to support that claim. -- Bollywood Dreamz 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Her personality has been open to debate and criticism" Source verifies in detail.
  • "she later explained that her honesty and openness was often perceived by the media as arrogance." In the source, she mentions her honesty and openness, but I failed to see that she mentioned her straightforwardness is perceived as arrogance by media.
She explains: "Misquotes and misunderstandings were unfortunate consequences of my attitude, especially when I first entered the film industry But it was a case of forthrightness being misunderstood for a cheeky attitude". -- Bollywood Dreamz 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Kapoor was recognized for her versatility" Sources verify.

So, overall, spotchecks seem to reveal consistent verification, with only minor problem in a very few instances. Copyvio check by this tool revealed statistically insignificant problem. So far, so good.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Support - A few issues with mechanics and style as pointed out above - but once these are resolved I would support it as an FA. I would take heed of Dwai's comments - as usual they are right on target. Great job all. -Classicfilms (talk) 15:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments on lead

  • " During her career Kapoor has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres, from contemporary romantic dramas to comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicisedindependent films". I am not sure if this sentence is a good sentence. I tend to prefer "During her career Kapoor has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres, from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicisedindependent films." (the to has been removed). Again, I am not sure about this. Any comment from anyone else?
  • "Kapoor faced the media spotlight at a young age but did not make her acting debut until the 2000 film Refugee.". This construction also does not sound very good, the "but did not make" part. So, althogh the family had actors, is she supposed to debut at an earlier age? Plus, the overall negative construction does not sound too good.
  • "In addition to film acting, Kapoor is a stage performer and has launched her own clothing line (in association with retail chain Globus). She is known for being publicly outspoken and assertive, and is recognized for her contributions to the film industry though her fashion style and film roles (both of which have made her a trend-setter for young women).". Do we really need those parentheses?--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I've made some adjustments to the lead including the ones you pointed out Dwaipayanc. Let me know what you think! -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • one more comment on the lead. The lead says, " Kapoor received media attention from a young age.". But the early life section does not mention the media attention that she got from a young age. I think this needs to be changed in the lead. may be, "...exposed to films from a young age" or something like this? This fits with her being born in the filmy family. --Dwaipayan (talk) 02:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the early life section does not mention the media attention; it is just intended to show how she became interested in acting. However, as a child she used to attend award ceremonies with her family and would also accompany her sister on-set during filming (mentioned in the public image section) - this introduced her to the media from a young age. -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so according to your explanation here, Kapoor was introduced to the media (films, awards etc) world at a young age; but that does not mean media was attentive of her when she was young. So, the article still does not mention that she received media attention from a young age. Either that needs to be changed in the lead, or, info on media's attention/coverage of a young Kareena should be added.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I've removed the bit about her receiving media attention from a young age. -- Bollywood Dreamz 20:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Support Since I copyedited the article in September 2012 it's not my place to assess the prose, but I believe this article meets WP:FA Criteria; it's comprehensive, well-sourced, neutral, stable and properly formatted. Images have alt text and acceptable copyright status. It may be a bit too long for its subject, but that's a judgment call. Miniapolis 02:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments: This is very well written and well sourced. I'm no expert in Bollywood, but have read a few arts biographies, so here goes. I have a few thoughts about the prose, some nit-picky.

  • A colon over a semicolon works better here: "During her career, Kapoor has received six Filmfare Awards and has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres; from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicised independent films."
Done
  • "Born into a family where her parents, Randhir Kapoor and Babita, and elder sister Karisma were actors, Kapoor faced the media spotlight at a young age..." – (1) "where" should be "in which". Not a spatial relationship. (20 "faced the media spotlight" seems like a colloquial expression. Try something plain and formal, like "received media attention".
Done
There's a problem with the current sentence—"Born into a family in which her parents, Randhir Kapoor and Babita, and elder sister Karisma were actors, Kapoor's career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee."—it makes it seem that her career was what was born into the family, not her herself. That, and that the two ideas are very loosely relation, thus lacking strong coherence. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Taking into account the suggestions you made, I decided to re-write the lead. Please let me know what you think! -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  • One general issue from reading the lead I've found is the odd logical flow. Connect only related ideas using conjunctions. As a result, I find these sentences awkward:
  • "Her film career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee and she subsequently featured in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham..., which became India's highest-grossing film in the overseas market in 2001 and one of her biggest commercial successes to date." – the way of connecting the inital idea with the subsequent one with "and she" is odd sounding. I think we may need to break this up with a semicolon: "Her film career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee, after which she featured in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham...; the latter was India's highest-grossing film in the overseas market in 2001 and one of Kapoor's biggest commercial successes to date." Also note that I changed that I changed "became" to "was"; otherwise, the we could interpret that the film was India's highest-grossing one from 2001 until today, but it was only that in 2001.
Done
  • "Her portrayal of a sex worker in Chameli (2004) proved to be the turning point in her career, and she was later noted for her performances in the critically acclaimed films Dev (2004) and Omkara (2006)." – Likewise regarding "and she". It's poor idea integration IMO. This would seem better as one, single, flowing idea. So try something like this: "She portrayed a sex worker in Chameli (2004), which proved to be the turning point in her career, and was noted for her performances in the critically acclaimed films Dev (2004) and Omkara (2006)." And since this sentence now begins with "She", the subsequent one cannot, so "Kapoor" probably.
Done
  • "Her parents reconciled in October 2007 and Kapoor explained that they were never officially divorced but lived separately." – more related ideas, but the conjunction doesn't flow well. Just break it up with a semicolon.
Done
  • There's also a bit of borderline weasel wording, as we aren't told who makes assertions such as, "She is known for being publicly outspoken and assertive, and is recognized for her contributions to the film industry though her fashion style and film roles both of which have made her a trend-setter for young women." Anything simple to not make these ideas seem so vague. By whom? Critics, authors, the public, heck fans?
Reworded; it now says "She is known in the Indian media for being publicly outspoken and assertive...". I've left the rest of the sentence the way it is. Let me know what you think!
Much better. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I've found the "went on to " wording a little fluffy and never understood why it couldn't simply be written as the infinitive conjugated in past tense. So instead of "went on to play", why not just "played"?
Done
  • "Since 2007, Kapoor has been in a relationship with actor Saif Ali Khan whom she married in October 2012." – need a comma after "Khan", since it's a nonrestrictive clause.
Done
  • As a general note, I like the lead: it's concise, solid and clear, and just what's expected from an overview.
  • A few obvious ideas, such as "Born in Mumbai, India, on 21 September 1980 into the Kapoor film family, Kapoor is the younger daughter of actors Randhir Kapoor and Babita (née Shivdasani)". Of course she's born into the Kapoor family! If you want to say she was born into a film family, just say "a film family". It's less repetitious too.
Done
  • I'm not sure how it is done in Indian English, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought "grand-daughter" and "film-maker" had no hyphens and were altogether single words. They might be interchangeable, so I'm not sure.
Initially, I had it spelled as "granddaughter" and "filmmaker"; however, spell check on my computer stated that it was incorrect. TBH, I don't even know what the correct spelling is.
If it's the wiki spell checker, it is bad. It seems to have rather limited vocabulary and doesn't accommodate for other dialects. I'm sure the way you had it spelled is correct. —WP:PENGUIN · 12:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Changed it back to granddaughter and filmmaker. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "After her parents' separation she was raised in Lokhandwala by her mother, who worked at several jobs to support her daughters until Karisma debuted as an actress in 1991." – the "After her parents' separation" is a bit repetitive following the previous sentence. Begin with a simple "She was then raised...".
Done
  • "Asked about her relationship with her father, Kapoor remarked 'My father is ... an important factor in my life. though we did not see him often in our initial years, we are a family now.'" – need a comma after "remarked".
Done
  • Are ellipses in brackets or no brackets when omitting material from a quotation? The latter is recommended per MOS:QUOTE, but either or is fine as long as you use it consistently.
According to MOS:QUOTE, we should use ellipses when omitting material from a quotation. I've added them to remain consistent!

These are general observations from the lead and Early life sections. Bravo on your work; it's well organized and structured, with useful images. What's needed is a fine-tooth comb with which to go over the article, some tweaks and polishing, and we've got the ideal Bollywood biography. —WP:PENGUIN · 22:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words Wikipedian Penguin! I've addressed all your concerns. Please let me know if there is anything else that needs to be done. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I've struck through most of my comments. —WP:PENGUIN · 20:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I've struck through all my comments. —WP:PENGUIN · 19:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Comments

Looks good. I have few comments though.

  • "She was then raised in Lokhandwala by her mother..." Is Lokhandwala so prominent that you need a mention and a wikilink? IMHO, No.
Removed
  • "...during this period, she became immersed in law books and developed a long-lasting passion for reading." Is "became immersed in law books" really required?
Removed
  • "Later that year Kapoor played the female lead in Santosh Sivan's period epic Asoka, a partly fictionalised account of the life of Ashoka." need a comma after 'year'. Also, prefix Ashoka with "an Indian emperor of the Maurya Dynasty". Not everyone knows Ashoka.
Done
  • "To prepare for the role, she visited several of Mumbai's red-light districts at night" You may want to link 'red-light districts' to Kamathipura, which is more specific to Mumbai.
The reason why I linked 'red-light districts' in general was because of the word "several" in the sentence. Kapoor didn't specifically visit one red-light district area; she visited "several".
  • "The film (and Kapoor's performance) opened to predominantly positive reviews by critics..." Parentheses not required.
Removed
  • "Kapoor is featured in the third chapter as Oberoi's love interest (Mira, a witty young woman)." 'a witty young woman' probably not required but I am not sure of that.
I see no harm in having it. 'A witty young woman' is used to describe her character, Mira, in Yuva.
  • Too much of Taran Adarsh everywhere and all he says is good-good. Can we have any positive-negative reviews/comments by any other critics?
The article is completely neutral and contains a "balance" of positive/negative comments by a variety of critics from different sources. Taran Adarsh's review is only used 3 times: Refugee, K3G and Dev.
  • "After graduating from Welham she studied commerce" need a comma after 'Welham'
  • "Kapoor then appeared in the Abbas-Mustan thriller Ajnabee." need a comma after 'thriller'.
  • "Kapoor was cast for the first time as a villain in the thriller Fida." need a comma after 'thriller'.
  • "During the filming of Fida Kapoor began a romantic relationship..." need a comma after 'Fida'.
  • "Although the film was unsuccessful at the box office" need a comma after 'box office'.
  • "she was cast as the protagonist of the 2005 drama Bewafaa." need a comma after 'drama'.

I have checked till "2007–11: Jab We Met and commercial success". Rest will check later. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Why are all those commas needed between the descriptors and film names? This article was copy edited, and another article that I am working on was recently copy edited by someone from the GOCE, and no such commas were deemed necessary. BollyJeff | talk 16:14, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Comma not only is used for separating the clauses, it also indicates where you should take a small pause when you are reading the article. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
A comma may help, but I don't think it is required. My point was why are we second guessing the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors? You want to tell them that they are not doing an adequate job? BollyJeff | talk 16:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
GoCE has always helped us in writing the articles in better way. However, there is always a chance for improvement. Also, I am not saying or dont want to say what you've said above for GoCE work. Hyderabad, India has failed four times at FAC, in spite of GoCE edits. That does not mean GoCE did blunders there. A reviewer probably still sees some improvement scope for the article. Obviously, for the betterment of the article. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I am not saying that; just wondering if that's how you felt. Okay BOLLYWOOD DREAMZ, it seems as though you will have to do what Vivvt suggests if you want his support here. If another reviewer comes along and says that there are too many commas, then I don't know what to tell you. BollyJeff | talk 17:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure about this particular comma issue. While speaking, we give a pause on those instances; however, do we always need to use comma in writing? I am not so sure. Moreover, there may be different school of grammar following different ways. Do you have a grammar or some Manual of Style, Vivvt, that recommends such use? Its beyond my knowledge of English. Bollyjeff, you can ask Miniapolis or someone else to opine here. I am sure there will be differing recommendations! --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
@BollyJeff: My alone's support or oppose would not matter anyway because article is strong enough to pass for itself. The changes should not be done to please the reviewers but strictly for the betterment of the article. The main contributor need not follow all the review comments, if he/she does not agree to it.
@Dwaipayanc: Ideally, the punctuation matters for the narrative. I believe, we need to have it in the writing as well. However, I may be wrong here and elsewhere. I do not have any guidelines or MoS with me to prove my point. Again, experts may clarify the things. - Vivvt • (Talk) 17:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
As for the commas, I honestly see no harm in having them. While writing the article, I had them, but Miniapolis had decided to remove it when he copy-edited the article. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see so many supports with a prose issue evident in the second sentence:

During her career, Kapoor has received six Filmfare Awards and has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres: from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicised independent films.

"During her career"? When else would she receive awards? I didn't read further. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
If lets say an actor/actress retired, then sometime after their retirement, they receive a lifetime achievement award or something of similar honor. At best, that could have been clarified as "During her film career" as maybe at somepoint she decides to quit film making and move on to a career in broadway or music. --JDC808 ♫ 22:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia, what do you mean by "surprised"? Everyone has the right to his/her opinion; some may "suppose", some may "oppose", whilst others may just choose to comment. Ultimately, it is your own prerogative on what you think of the article. I also believe that JDC808 made a good recommendation; will be changing it to "During her film career". -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment "n 2008 Kapoor performed in Shahrukh Khan's Temptation Reloaded 2008, a series of concerts in a number of countries. The show (which also featured Arjun Rampal, Katrina Kaif, Ganesh Hegde, Javed Ali and Anusha Dandekar) was staged at the Ahoy Rotterdam venue in Rotterdam, the Netherlands". The first sentence says it was a multi-city tour; the second sentence says it took place in Rotterdam?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Indeed the level of details for all these stage shows seem quite trivial, and seem not to follow any specific criteria. You have mentioned some of the shows, but probably not others. So what was the selection criteria? I don't see mention of any shows that took place in India (unless the world tours included India as well). I have a feeling this section needs tremendous trimming.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Reply to your first point: I meant that "the show debuted at the Ahoy Rotterdam venue in Rotterdam, the Netherlands".
Reply to your second point: IMO, details for all these stage shows are not trivial; all of the shows specifically mention where they took place similar to that of Zinta's article. As far as mentioning the shows that took place in India, the "stage performances" section is intended just for her world tours/shows that took place abroad. If we were to list all of her shows in India, it would unnecessarily lengthen the article. -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I did significant copyedit in several parts (including the lead) of the article, addressing content and language. IMO, the off-screen activities, particularly the stage performances, are detailed unnecessarily and without any pattern or criteria. The three subsection of that section could be merged into one unbroken section, and excessive details about the random stage shows removed. A sentence like, "she performed in many stage shows in India and some concert tours across the globe, including x (2001), y (2004)" and so on. Please opine.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
To begin with, thank you for taking the time in copy-editing the article. I agree with most of them, however there are a few of them which I don't really agree with. I'll be changing some of them. As for merging all her other work into one unbroken section, it wouldn't really be a good idea; it would end up looking like a bunch of random activities/thoughts put together. As I mentioned above, her stage shows are listed in chronological order and just mention where they took place. I honestly don't see the harm in having it. -- Bollywood Dreamz 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding concert/stage shows: in that case, the article should explicitly mention that only non-Indian tours are listed. Also, are all the non-Indian tours mentioned (just a query)? In any case, then the paragraph should say that she has done many stage shows in India, and the global ones are mentioned here.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
All her non-Indian tours are mentioned. BTW do you think it would help if we changed the section title? -- Bollywood Dreamz 06:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think we need to change the subsection name.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

More on reference style in general, the titles of the references are in sentence case. There are some discrepancies though. Please read this section and follow the sentence case consistently. The first letter of a word should not be in capital after a colon, for example. Another reference title is "The Most Powerful Actresses in India". This is in title case, not in sentence can. This should be "The most powerful actresses in India". In a given article, one style should be used consistently, irrespective of the different styles used in the actual sources.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Today's featured article, Bastion (video game), uses the same case as the sources. Just saying. BollyJeff | talk 01:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Ya, I see that article has mixed sentence case and title case in its source titles. Well, perhaps we are demanding very strictly :) Actually, during a previous FARC, Sandy pointed this out. I believe this is a good thing to follow, for the sake of consistency in a given article, although views tend to differ in this regard, it seems.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe that the tool that helps build citations, Reflinks uses the source case too. BollyJeff | talk 02:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I am retracting this comment for now (sentence case versus title case issue), unless some other reviewer comments on this.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments

  • USD and crore overlinked in many sections.
During Kapoor's first FAC, it was recommended that we put in the Indian rupees converter to avoid confusion for non-Indian readers. By putting the currency converter, it automatically links USD and crore; e.g. ₹200 crore (US$23 million).
  • PDF references needs (format=PDF) filled in.
Done
  • The notes section in filmography section should be unsortable per WP:FILMOGRAPHY.
Done
  • Link genre in the lead.
Done
  • Link the first occurrence of The Hindu in refs; same for "Box Office India".
Done for The Hindu. I see that the Box Office India article is currently nominated for deletion; once the issue is resolved it'll be linked.
  • Pipe-linking "a film family" to Kapoor family seems like WP:EASTEREGG.
Removed
Changed -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Support –No issues for me. The article meets the criteria. —Vensatry (Ping me) 15:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments The article is well-written, complete and meets FA criteria. Good work Bollywood Dreamz But, still has some issues.

  • "after which she acted in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham..., one of Kapoor's biggest commercial successes to date"
Why it is important to use a long sentence which could be replaced by a single word "Hit" or something like that. Since, it is not one of the highest frossing film right now. Then, Bodyguard and golmaal 3 should also be mentioned.
That is because K3G was her first worldwide success. I agree that there were other films of hers like Golmaal 3, Bodyguard, Ra.One that earned more than K3G, but when adjusted for inflation, it has earned more than these films. That is why it is still one of her biggest commercial successes to date.
  • "Refugee was the fifth-highest-grossing film in India in 2000"
So what, the film is 5th grossing film but it is widely considered as critical and commercial failure. Don't you think you are showing it like a blockbuster.
"Widely considered" by whom? The BOI source shows that it was a moderate success and managed to recover some of its profit. No one is "showing it like a blockbuster"; you are just assuming that. All it says that it was the fifth-highest-grossing film of the year.
Change it to moderate success or something like that.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Mujhe Kuch Kehna hai, a romantic drama opposite Tusshar Kapoor, which became one of the year's most successful films"
It was just a "hit" nothing more so, why "most"?
Changed to hit.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • received her first Filmfare Best Actress nomination -> received her first nomination in Best Actress category at Filmfare or something else. No need to use just "Filmfare Best Actress"...a bit confusing, use original name.
Changed to official name.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "She was in six films"
she was in six films? Maybe "starred" or "featured". It seems these films where unsuccessful because of other and she has no role to play.
"Starred" is reasonable. Changed.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "It was the second Bollywood film with a North American release by a Hollywood studio" why this is important?
Dwaipayanc removed it. I'm fine with that! Maybe if it was the first Bollywod film to get a North American release by a Hollywood studio, then I would have left it.
  • "However, Golmaal Returns was a financial success with international revenues of 79.25 crore (US$14.42 million)"
so what was its domestic gross....you are saying that it is the international gross so where is domestic? Sounds confusing.
Dwaipayanc changed it to say "global revenues".
  • Box office reports says Kambakkht Ishq was commercial failure in India, Why no use complete information.?
What box office reports? You're talking as if I didn't use any sources to support the information. BOI shows that the film was declared "above average". How is that a commercial failure?
Use moderate success or something like that.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
How is that necessary? The film doesn't say anything about the film being a success. All it says that it grossed x amount. If it said that it was a commercial success, then that would be a different thing. -- Bollywood Dreamz 05:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Reviews says that Kurbaan received "mixed" reviews but I see positive. WHY?
Not according to this. Plus if you take a look at the reviews listed on Kurbaan's article you'll see majority of them are positive. Just because a film receives some negative reviews, doesn't mean that it received mixed reviews. If majority of the reviews are positive, then we can say that the film received positive reviews.
7 Khoon Maaf received 80% positive and 20% negative; it is described as "mixed". Kurbaan's ratio is about 40 positive and 60 negative. I can give you the links.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I've conducted an analysis of the reviews Kurbaan received by film critics over here. You can see for yourself! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz 18:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "For her portrayal of the tomboy Daboo, Kapoor received Best Actress nominations at various award ceremonies"
But, I could see only three.
There are definitely more than three (Apsara, Big Star, Filmfare, Global Indian, IIFA, Screen, Stardust, Zee Cine).
  • You should include Bodyguard received mixed to negative review.
Done by Dwaipayanc
  • Any critical analysis for Ra.One (reviews) ...why her critical acclaims are highlighted and critical failures are covered under garland of "commercial success".
If you take a look at other FA's, you will see that it's not necessary that we have to add a critical review of an actor from every film. No one is highlighting her critical acclaim and covering her critical failures. If you look at the section, you can see that there are negative reviews mentioned as well (Tashan, GR, KI, Bodyguard). Kapoor's role in Ra.One was similar to that of Zinta and Chopra in KMG and Krissh respectively (in which the actress didn't have much to do).
  • "was an economic success, earning 42.17 crore (US$7.67 million) internationally." any domestic datas? Are you saying the film generated good revenues internationally alone?
Tweaked
  • Many reviews says Kapoor received "mixed to negative review" for Heroine but, I could see only praise. Again, why her acclaim is so highlighted.? and criticism has been covered?
Again, we are not hiding anything. Majority of sources (1, 2, 3) show that although the film received negative reviews, Kapoor's performance was well received. These sources are good enough; however, if needed I'm willing to put together an analysis of all the reviews she received for the film, something like what I did for her other films.
I can show you, how she has been criticized. Here's are the links showing "mixed" response from critics for her performance in Heroine , , , , .This says it all, she got some positive and some negative, which means "mixed". I think it is clear now.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I just don't know what to say. Barring the one from OneIndia and to some extent NDTV, the other three are positive. As I said for the analysis of films, which pretty much can be applied to the analysis of her critical reviews, some mixed reviews doesn't mean that the overall reception was "mixed". I think I will have to list all the reviews for you to see. -- Bollywood Dreamz 05:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I've conducted an analysis of the reviews Kapoor received for Heroine (including the ones you mentioned) over here. You can see for yourself! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz 06:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok...it has been resolved. .Prashant  Conversation  09:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In many places, readers are made to be confused..whether the revenues are from international markets alone or worldwide. That should be used properly. Same for Talaash.
They were changed.
  • Again, you should correct "talaash received mixed reviews."
The word "predominantly" was used. As I said before, just because a film receives some negative reviews, doesn't mean that it received mixed reviews. Plus if you take a look at the reviews listed on Talaash's article you'll see majority of them are positive. Two other sources: 1 & 2. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm ok with talaash. You may use talaash "generally" received positive reviews.

Prashant  Conversation  14:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

More comments

  • Again, I can't help myself to point it again. This sentence is misleading the readers over the film performance of Refugee. "Refugee was the fifth-highest-grossing film in India in 2000".
Tweaked
  • This is too much, last time it didn't got my eyes..."Kapoor portrayed Kaurwaki—a Kalingan princess, with whom Ashoka falls in love—and received her first nomination for Best Actress at the Filmfare Awards. While the film received generally positive reviews". Positive review for Asoka, Check the link was a commercial and critical failure.
This shows that film received a 100% rating. I know that wasn't the case completely so I changed it to generally.
  • Her Performance and analysis says ...Despite the least success rate among her contemporaries...., I see a complete reversed version as all her hits here, are tagged with "one of the years biggest hits or success". Why it is important to say "one of the years biggest". Can't you use "was a box office success", "major success". Use "one of....." only in the major success's like Golmaal 3.
  • Same for Jab We Met, "The film was received favourably by critics and became one of the year's most successful films, with a domestic box office of 30.25 crore (US$5.51 million)."
Tweaked
  • Again, The film earned over 84 crore (US$15.29 million) worldwide, but was a critical failure. So, Don't tell what it sounds like.(like a blockbuster which was a critical letdown).
It may sound like that to you. As I said before, all it says that the film grossed x amount. Anyways, I just don't know to say anymore. Tweaked
  • The film (which marked the directorial debut of Rensil D'Silva)....who?(Is the director has won 10National Award and is regarded ad India's best director). Every second Director Debuts with first film, doesn't mean...we should highlight.
What? Kurbaan was his directorial debut; your comments don't make sense at all.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz 18:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Support As I said earlier, the article is well-written, complete and neutral. Hence, I support it. Congratulations to Bollywood Dreamz for his work on the article. Cheers!Prashant  ✉  03:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The reliability of boxofficeindia.com was established after a long discussion in reliable source noticeboard.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
After the last FAC, all of the unreliable sources were replaced with reliable ones. All of the sources used in the article are well-known and reliable; they are newspapers (The Times of India, The Telegraph), reliable websites (Bollywood Hungama, Indiatimes), magazines (Forbes, Filmfare), etc.
As far as the reliability of Oneindia.in is concerned, it is a mainstream Indian news website operated by B. G. Mahesh, one of the pioneers of the Internet and on-line news in India. TBH, if its reliability is questioned, I don't mind replacing it with a more reliable source. -- Bollywood Dreamz 02:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I would recommend removing it--while I'm still iffy on whether BoxOfficeIndia meets the "high quality" threshold of an RS it's evidently treated as such, but I'm not seeing anything to convince me of OneIndia's quality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Replaced the OneIndia source. I had originally used another source to support the worldwide gross of EMEAT. However, unable to find it, I decided to change it and used the gross from OneIndia. -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Some comments inpite of earlier support. Again, the article sounds like a too much for FA.

  • After making her acting debut in the 2000 war drama Refugee, Kapoor's early years in the film industry were successful; she received a Filmfare nomination for Asoka: But the below section of initial years says her initial years were average. Lots of failures and few or 2-3 success. Do this shows her sussess?
  • Getting a nomination at filmfare is what ? She only got this nomination and it doesn't make any thing a success.
If you would you have cared to read the rest of the sentence then you would know what I'm talking about. It later says that "this was followed by a series of commercial failures and repetitive roles, which garnered her negative reviews." By early years, I meant 2001; if you take a look at the sources from BOI and Rediff.com, you can see that the statement is correct. As far as the Filmfare nomination is concerned, the reason why I mentioned it was because it was her first nomination for Best Actress.
But, this is encyclopedia, leave all this but you should also mention her first supporting nomination. No? I'm just saying for the benefit of the article. Look at Balan's page. Its prose is well written.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes! I know that this is an encyclopedia. The lead of the article "serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." We are not listing all her nominations there; she later received nominations for Omkara, Kurbaan, etc. Are those included? NO! As I said before, the reason why I mentioned it was because it was her first nomination for Best Actress. -- Bollywood Dreamz 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Again, the positive reviews for Asoka are giving me a nightmare. The Indian reviews says that the film was worst of the year. I think rotten tomatoes just shows average of foreign reviews.
Please show me the reviews that say "the film was worst of the year". We can see that all the foreign reviews were positive whereas the ones from Indian film critics were mixed. For that reason I used the word generally.
  • Although a poll (conducted by Bollywood Hungama) named it the most anticipated release of the year, the film was a commercial and critical failure. Why this is important to mention. Reality is Tashan is a critical and commercial disasters. Every third film with multistar cast attracts viewers interest but most important is the results which is Disaster.
Yes, and that is mentioned!
My point is why it is necessary to mention about poll? It sounds like the film should have been Blockbuster but it bombed.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
That's precisely my point! -- Bollywood Dreamz 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • believed the screenplay was derivative, concluding: "There is nothing particularly new about a suspicious wife keeping tabs on her husband, and there is nothing particularly new in the way Kareena plays. Why this review is important, she received negative reviews....i can show you. Earlier, you said its not important to mention negative reviews for financially successfull films and then then you are crossing it yourself.
What are you talking about? The review provided is negative.
But, you mentioned she received mixed reviews?Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Please take a look at the analysis that was done back in 2008. -- Bollywood Dreamz 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Bodyguard received negative to mixed reviews, though became a financial success ....it received negative reviews. What do you mean by mixed?
If you take a look at the film's article, you will notice that the film had a mixed reception. The critics didn't praise nor did they criticize it too heavily. I know that the film did receive negative reviews too and hence I decided to say "negative to mixed". Okay! I've now changed it to say that the film was not well-received by critics. -- Bollywood Dreamz 19:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I know she is your favorite actress, its not mean that you start writing only good things about about her. Sounds like fancruft to me. Prashant  ✉  11:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

TBH Prashant, sometimes I don't even know what you're saying. It's funny how you contradict yourself. You mentioned before that it was "well-written", "neutral" and "meets FA criteria". And now you go on to say that it "sounds like fancruft" and there are "only good things about her". Don't think for a second that I don't know what you're up to. -- Bollywood Dreamz 18:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it may be funny to you but I wanna tell you that I'm also a kapoor fan and Chopra fan too but from last few months i Learned that this is encyclopedia and not a blog. I didn't even touched this article because you have handled it so nicely from past few years. But, its no that we should write only garlands and flowers. Also, I supported the article because it is well written and I'm not denying that. You should appreciate other reviewers that they are helping you in FA and not criticizing them.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
To begin with, I did not criticize you. I just stated how you always contradict yourself. -- Bollywood Dreamz 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Please move your argument to the talk page, it has no place here. As for supporting and then making those comments, sorry Prashant but that makes your input here a lot less credible.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
My comments came in only because the article's many part was changed suddenly. I guess it should have been stable. When I looked again, it was changed. So, I made my points and hence they are resolved, I'm satisfied with it. I had supported and will always support the article. Congratulations and best of luck. The article don't don't have any oppse, so I guess it would be an FA soon. My points were only for the betterment and not for anything else. Cheers!Prashant  ✉  03:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Support (for most of the criteria). I am not qualified to judge the article for criterion 1a (prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard), so not commenting on that. The article meets other criteria: 1b (comprehensive), 1c (well-researched, claims are verifiable per the random spot-checking), 1d (neutral, although some comments above questioned this, for me the article is neutral), 1e (stable); also meets criteria 2, 3, and 4. --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Am I the only one here who would rather dates formatted as 18 February 2013 rather than 2013-02-18 ?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:33, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
No, you are not. BollyJeff | talk 21:14, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Seems informal, like note form to me, not to mention backwards, I'd rather it be in writing.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 22:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
But it's probably okay as is. The article should rest and not have so much change now. BollyJeff | talk 00:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Template:Cite web initially had you format the dates 2013-02-18 as opposed to 18 February 2013, but I now see that it is the other way around. I see no problem in leaving it the way it is. If it's absolutely compulsory then I will change it. -- Bollywood Dreamz 01:12, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
No, it is not as such necessary. The key is consistency within a given article; in this case, that date style has been consistently used.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
User:Bill william compton has formatted all the dates as 18 February 2013 citing WP:MOSNUM. I guess it was important then! -- Bollywood Dreamz 03:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Support - a very good article, constantly up-to-date thanks to the on-going, tireless dedication of this wonderful guy, Bollywood Dreamz, who keeps a close eye on the proceedings and insists on keeping it neutral and well-written. I congratulate all of you guys who've taken part in improving it over time, well done. Shahid • 23:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words Shahid! I would also like to take the time to thank each and every individual who participated in this FAC. Thank you for taking the time and offering your inputs; the article has only improved since it was nominated! Cheers everyone! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz 01:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Wow, surprised Shahid turned up...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Quite a few duplicate links; some are for currency, and others might be justified by the amount of prose between them in a decent-sized article, but pls review in any case. Use this script to check for them. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for introducing me to that script Ian! I've removed the unnecessary duplicate links. As for the currency, it was automatically linked when I used this template; I never knew you could add the following parameter ("|nolink=yes"), which would then help unlink it. -- Bollywood Dreamz 23:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Tks Bollywood. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC) .

Gravity Bone

Nominator(s): — ΛΧΣ 18:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Gravity Bone is a freeware first-person adventure video game developed by Brendon Chung under his video game studio, Blendo Games, and released in August 2008. The game was developed using a modified version of id Software's id Tech 2 engine—originally used for Quake 2—and incorporates music by film director Wong Kar-wai. Gravity Bone received critical acclaim from video game journalists. It was called "an experience worth playing", and received comparisons to games such as Team Fortress 2 and Portal. The game was praised for its cohesive story and atmosphere and its ability to catch the player's interest over a very short time span without feeling rushed or incomplete. With permission from delegate GrahamColm, I am nominating this article for featured status. Regards. — ΛΧΣ 18:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Brief comments

  • Comment (as semi-involved, while I didn't work on this article, I'm working on its sequel and so sorta helping here). Brendan Chung (the one guy behind Blendo Games) has previously put free screenshots at my request of his other games (eg Atom Zombie Smasher) for purposes of WP. I don't know how much of a line I have to him directly nowadays (now that he's all "important" and stuff :) ) but will try to see if I can get him to do so. I don't expect this to hold up any issues on this FAC, since normally game screenshots are not replaceable with free, but this will probably help if I could. --MASEM (t) 14:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Good news! I just got in touch with him, and he's put more shots from this game and his other ones up on Flickr under a free license. . --MASEM (t) 23:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
      • So in terms of an image check, at this point, all images used are properly free - the game's logo is just typefaces and thus fails originality and uncopyrightable, and the two other images are appropriately free. --MASEM (t) 17:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The gameplay section is a bit confusing to me. I don't get a clear sense of what players do beyond the fact that they're not told much. The thumbnail picture is the only place I learn that there is no HUD, certain details are repeated (At the end of the game, the player-controlled spy is killed by an unknown woman after chasing her through the last half of the second level. and Finishing the level triggers a set of final sequences of events and the game ends with the sudden death of the player's character.) and plot and gameplay are interwoven in I think a detrimental fashion; it might be better to go over the scant plot details first and then transition to a more fleshed out explanation of what players do. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 01:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by JDC808

  • Not bad at all. The only thing that really stuck out to me was the lead, second paragraph. "The game was praised for its cohesive story and atmosphere and its ability..." I think this should be either "cohesive story, atmosphere, and its ability" or "cohesive story and atmosphere, and its ability". --JDC808 ♫ 02:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Something else I just noticed. The lead, second paragraph says "A direct sequel, Thirty Flights of Loving, was released in 2012." but in the Sequel section, it says it's not a direct sequel. --JDC808 ♫ 04:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Axem Titanium

  • HUD should be wikilinked and not abbreviated.
  • "The first level of Gravity Bone is disguised as a tutorial system" - I think this is backwards. Isn't the tutorial system disguised as the first level?
    • Hmm, both ways work. I will use yours :)
  • In the lead, "an experience worth playing" is in quotation marks, implying a direct quote, but when this phrase is mentioned in the Reception section, it is not in quotes and the phrase does not appear in Onyett's article. Onyett's article is also specifically not called a review.
    • True, it is a preview or impressions. For grammatical and *makes sense* purposes, I changed it to preview. And, well, ups. I synthesized his comment there in a way I should not have. I have fixed this. Take a look :)
  • What is Game Tunnel and why is it reliable?
  • "Citizen Abel" is not explained anywhere in the article, thus, it is confusing when his name is mentioned later, particularly in the Sequel section where the reader would have to know that the main char of Gravity Bone's name is Citizen Abel in order to understand the significance of the sentence.
    • The main character is not named Citizen Abel. What Citizen Abel is is explained in the Development section: "based on a series of Quake 2 maps entitled Citizen Abel".
      • If that's the case, they you have to explain that in 30 Flights, "Citizen Abel" refers to the main character's name, not a Quake 2 map. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
        • Then yes; I'd have to fix that. The developer of the game, Brendon Chung, said that Citizen Abel is not the name of the character. He also said that the character has no name. I think this is pretty easy to understand from the development section. Also, I see that Masem mistakenly wrote that Citizen Abel was the character on the Sequel section. I have fixed that. — ΛΧΣ 19:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a great little article about a great little game and I applaud you for attempting to improve it. I would love to support when these comments are addressed. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Source Spot-check

I've checked the first few sources in the article, and have already found several problems. In the gameplay section, the source does not mention that the player character is a spy. This source doesn't say anything about chasing a woman, or the player character being killed by her. Also, while the reviewer of that source said he did not understand the plot, this does not support the claim that "The game was designed to keep the plot elements as scarce as possible." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I am still dealing a bit with them to make sure they are accurate. Although, some plot elements don't need to be sourced, per the common guidelines from the Wikiproject. — ΛΧΣ 03:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
A primary source cannot support a statement such as "The game was designed to keep the plot elements as scarce as possible", unless it's actually mentioned in the game what the developers' intentions were.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I was not talking about that one. I am looking for the ref that covers that one in the list :) — ΛΧΣ 04:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. — ΛΧΣ 05:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Only as a comment to help (I don't know immediately off the top of my head), some of the sourcing for Thirty Flights may help towards clarifying these. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

For the development section, in the interview, Chung didn't exactly say he had a "passion for films" in general. He said he liked Wong's films specifically. This should be clarified. Also Wong is the guy's last name, not Kar-wai. All the "Kar-wai"s in the article should be changed to "Wong".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I will take care of this after the Grammys are over :) — Hahc21 02:14, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay. I have taken care of this. Thanks! — Hahc21 15:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The part about the sequel's non-linear storytelling being a "novel use of the video game medium" doesn't seem to be supported by the source. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source that - while it doesn't say that in so few words - has the message. (See third paragraph, the one under the 2nd picture). --MASEM (t) 23:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I have replaced the reference. — ΛΧΣ 23:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Hurricanehink

Support (stumbled here after checking out my FAC)

  • Take care of the unsourced statement.
    • I will, sir :) Unsource statement removed. Don't know from where I took that.
  • Could you explain somewhere what "Citizen Abel" is? I see "and was based on a series of Quake 2 maps entitled Citizen Abel" - but that doesn't explain why it's in the image at the top-right of the article (or does it?!)
    • I will try to better explain what does Chung said about this. I am tired of seeing sources stating that Citizen Abel is the name of the character. I believed it was the name of the character too until Chung explicitly statet that the character had no name, and that Citizen Abel was... well, read it on the article when I fix it :P
  • It was called "an experience worth playing" - by whom?
    • Hmmm *goes and looks at the sources* Fixed.
  • From the description, it seems the game is very short, with two levels. Is that right?
  • "The player controls a spy" - probably add "unnamed" here.
    • Oh gosh, Indeed. Fixed.
      • Err, given what I've read elsewhere, is that correct? Are you sure Citizen Abel isn't the character's name? --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
        • Err, Brendon Chung clearly stated on the interview: "It was based on a series of Quake 2 maps I did ten years ago called 'Citizen Abel'." He also stated, when asked if "In Gravity Bone, do you play Citizen Abel, or is that just a reference to your old maps?", that "That doesn't really play a part in the game. You never really see the character, the character never talks, it's just a label I had." With this, it is clear that the character is not named Citizen Abel. — ΛΧΣ 03:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  • You have three consecutive sentences starting with "Cheng" in "Development" :/
    • Will take care of this :) Fixed.
  • Given you had " as an experience worth playing" quoted in the lede, it should probably be quoted down in "Reception".
  • Were there any number reviews (aside from The Refined Geek)? Like 9/10? Stars? Thumbs up?
    • Nothing :/ Just positive comments with the exception you noted below.
  • And speaking of The Refined Geek - "awarding them a score of 8 out of 10 " - was that for each game, or for the series as a whole?
  • commenting, "The cohesiveness - should "the" really be capitalized here?
    • No. Will fix that. Fixed.
  • Did the game get any mention in any newspapers? Everything seems to be online. Also, was there any negative reception?
  • I notice, in the entire article, you don't say where the game was released, and how. You say it was released on Windows in the infobox, but there isn't a source or mention of that. Was the game really not available on a Mac? And how did people purchase it? And for what price?
    • The game is free, available on the developer's website, blendogames.com. It was not sent to Steam, not released under a price. It has no Mac version, or any other version but Windows. It's a very indie release that got the attention of the mainstream VG websites for its unique style etc :)

Just some missing details that I think the article needs. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC) .

Marcus Ward Lyon, Jr.

Nominator(s): – Maky 16:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this short article for featured article because I feel that it meets all of the criteria. The article covers every source I can find on the subject. The only known exception is his burial record at Arlington National Cemetery, which would provide an interment date and grave location (section & tombstone number). I will include the information if someone can suggest a proper citation, especially since I cannot link directly to the record, only to the database. (An image of the tombstone may also be in the public domain under PD-USGov, but I'm not certain and cannot get a response from Arlington National Cemetery.) Assistance on these two issues would be most welcome. If any other sources can be located, please send them to me and I will quickly incorporate them.

Lyon was not known for a single, major contribution to the sciences, but contributed about 160 papers over the course of his career. He named two of the slow loris species that were recently elevated to species status, and is the authority on several genera and species of mammals (including a ton of synonyms). In all, this should be a complete, short article about a lesser known naturalist from the early 1900s. – Maky 16:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Image is PD and fine. Sources are fine except the title for Just should use an endash instead of a hyphen and there's a doubled period in Layne, so I'll have to strongly oppose because of those tremendously outrageous issues ;-) Apparently Notre Dame has his family papers, not sure if you could access those. There's also "first published plant lists of the Indiana Dunes, then notes on ground squirrels and badgers anticipating his 1936 opus on mammals of Indiana" in American Midland Naturalist (January 2009), 161 (1), pg. 13-44. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the source and image review. Fixes made as requested... Lol! Living in Atlanta, I don't have access to the Notre Dame library, and I'm not even sure how I would cite family papers if I could get them to send me digital copies. What kind of information would you like to get from them? Lastly, are you simply wanting a mention of those lists and notes (per this source)? – Maky 19:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
No, just mentioned them because you had wondered above about further sources. I don't think it's a big issue either way. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Added the stuff from American Midland Naturalist as requested. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Comments from Ceranthor
Lead
  • Born in 1875 to a military family, he showed an early interest in zoology by collecting local wildlife around the army posts at which his father was stationed - I think the use of by makes this sentence awkward. Show and by don't mix well. Maybe at an early age he began collecting?
I'm not sure I see how this is awkward, but I have attempted to reword it. If the modifications are insufficient, please let me know. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • U.S. National Museum (USNM) - Is there a reason US isn't spelled out? Is this the traditional spelling or something?
Good point. Fixed in two locations. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In 1919, he and his wife, Martha, moved to South Bend, Indiana to join a new clinic. - Why is it a "new" clinic? It's the first mention of a clinic I've seen.
Changed to "newly opened clinic". – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Following the move, he began to write more medical publications, - he began to write publications on medicine. More medical doesn't make sense as it is.
Fixed. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Early
  • His family moved between various army posts across the United States throughout his childhood, although there are few records documenting his early life. - The use of although is improper here; the second half doesn't contradict anything in the first half.
I'm having a hard time rewording this. I will revisit it soon. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I've attempted to reword this. Please let me know if it's better. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • As a child, Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and other animals around the army posts, particularly Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts. - This needs to be recast. As is, it reads as he enjoyed collecting Watertown Arsenal (collective noun for a type of insect) near Boston. I think adding an "at" would leave it too wordy. Better to reword this entirely.
I'm also having a hard time with this one, so I used your "at" idea for the time being. I'll revisit it soon. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
I've attempted to reword this. Please let me know if it's better. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • By the time Lyon was in high school, his father had been restationed at Rock Island Arsenal, and the young man graduated from nearby Rock Island High School. - This sentence doesn't proceed logically; it doesn't explain that Lyon moved schools (with his father), rather that he graduated from a different school.
Fix attempted. Please let me know if it is clearer. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, which included training in biology. - Unless I'm mistaken, the degree doesn't include training in biology, his studies did.
Good catch. Fixed. – Maky 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Career
  • In 1898, he moved to Washington, D.C. and in conjunction with his graduate studies, he became a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the U.S. National Museum (USNM), now the National Museum of Natural History of the Smithsonian Institution. - I can't help but feel the "now" bit would be better as a footnote.
Footnote made. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • He was sent to Venezuela in 1899 by the USNM, along with Lieutenant Wirt Robinson of the United States Army, to collect mammal specimens. - "He was sent to Venezuela with Lieutenant...Army in 1899 by...to collect mammal specimens." is better.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've used it. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • despite continuing his education and taking on teaching assignments at Howard University Medical School. He taught physiology from 1903–1904 and 1907–1909, as well as bacteriology from 1909 to 1915. - No need to separate these sentences. Can be condensed to "and teaching physiology and bacteriology at Howard University Medical School from 1903-1904 and 1907-1909, respectively. The dates can go wherever you want, but the two sentences definitely should be combined.
Done, though the example you gave incorrectly attributed the dates. Because of the complex dates, I've put them in parentheses. I hope that is acceptable. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • From his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family - From is not the right word. Because of is better, but not perfect.
I never liked how this sentence started when I first wrote it, and I agree that "Because of..." is not perfect. But as before, I'm at a loss. If I think of something better, I will change it, but for now, I'm using "Because of..." – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • From his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews). He also is the authority for the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew) and two genera of leporids (rabbits and hares), - These sentences should be combined.
Done. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Although he was never able to visit the Far East, he acquired a strong knowledge of the fauna and geography from studying the collections that were sent to the USNM. Following the end of his relationship with the USNM in 1912, he not only began publishing basic medical studies, but also continued to publish mammalogy material. - The first sentence here seems out of place, unless it is saying that his publications related to the Far East's fauna. Otherwise I think it's an unnecessary detail.
It does refer to his publications about Far East fauna. I have done my best to fix, but you may not like it. Please share you opinion. I am open to suggestions, too. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Despite his interest in and occupation with medical science, his passion was for the study of living and extinct mammals, which was reflected in how his contributions to mammalogy outnumbered his medical papers. - "which was" and after reads like original research, and the readers can gather that themselves, anyway, even if it is sourced.
Good point. Deleted. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Personal life
  • Lyon criticized poorly managed conservation programs in his paper "Conservation from the Naturalist's Point of View" (1939), and in his final paper, he envisioned life around the Kankakee Outwash Plain before human activities had changed it. Lyon also gave up his cottage in the Indiana Dunes after the wildlife refuge was converted into a vacation destination. - What is his final paper? It's not clear.
Title provided. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Weak Oppose - The prose is rather clunky and needs a copyedit. I can't help but feel that the article is at times a bit redundant to give it length, and becomes choppy. ceranthor 18:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed replies/fixes. I have done my best to attempt the examples you pointed out above. I have also re-read the article but did not notice any other "clunky" prose... but then again, I'm not as good at copyediting as you are. If there are any other problems, please list them. Thanks for the review. – Maky 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I think they've all been fixed pretty satisfactorily. The article still needs a copyedit of some form, though. ceranthor 21:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Done. Let me know if there are particular places that need work. Suggestions are welcome. – Maky 04:36, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support from Ceranthor. The prose has improved greatly, and it is far less choppy than it was. I think it is close enough that I can comfortably support. That being said, the quote "ardent conservationist" under personal life needs to be cited. Otherwise, it looks good to me. ceranthor 19:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Kitchen Roll.

  • "Born in 1875 to a military family" --> "Born into a military family" - no need to state the year of his birth again.
Good point. Done. – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "At the same time, he taught medical classes at Howard University Medical School and later George Washington University Medical School." --> "At the same time, he taught at Howard University Medical School and later George Washington University Medical School." - no need to say medical classes, as they are both medical schools.
Another very good point. Fixed. – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, and his training included biology." --> "He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, which included training in biology."
Done. – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Because of his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews), as well as the authority for the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew)" --> "Because of his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews), as well as the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew)"
Done. – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Until the move to Indiana, Lyon wrote many papers in the field of mammalogy, and particularly on the morphology, systematics, and zoogeography of mammals." - is the "and" necessary? ("mammalogy, particularly"). If it is the sentence still feels a bit clunky.
Changes made. Let me know if it's a little better. – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Following the end of his relationship with the USNM in 1912, he not only began publishing basic medical studies, but also continued to publish mammalogy material." - publish and publishing used in the same sentence feels awkward.
Changed one of them to "write". Good enough? – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "articles collected by Lyon and his wife's scrapbook of her life in college." I can't make sense of this. Can it be reworded?
Changes made. Better? – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Ceranthor that the article needs a copyedit.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 14:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Within the next few days, I plan to review WP:1A (a long, but helpful page written by a user to help people learn how to copyedit). I review that page about once a year. After that, I'll re-read the article and try my best to clean it up more. However, if you can point out any other issues, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the reviews and suggestions! – Maky 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Brilliant. Thanks for the quick response. I'll give the article another read soon.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

More comments The article reads much better after the copyedit, but there are still issues. Here are some more comments. I may add more later.

  • "Born into a military family, he demonstrated an early interest in zoology when he began collecting local wildlife around the army posts at which his father was stationed." could be worded better.
I've tried tying the points together better and making parts of it more succinct. Your thoughts? – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Lyon acquired the rank of Major in the Medical Reserve Corps during World War I, and was appointed to honorary positions during his career, including the position of president of the American Society of Mammalogists from 1931 to 1932." --> "Lyon acquired the rank of Major in the Medical Reserve Corps during World War I, and was appointed to honorary positions during his career, including president of the American Society of Mammalogists from 1931 to 1932."
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The last two sentences begin with "he" in the second paragraph of the lead.
Fixed. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "His father's military career led his family to move across the United States throughout his childhood and adolescence." --> "Because of his father's military career, his family moved across the United States throughout his childhood and adolescence." Also "his" is repeated three times in this sentence.
Done and fixed. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Around each army post, and particularly at Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts, the young Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and other animals." --> "The young Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and animals around the army posts, particularly at Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts."
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "In 1898, he moved to Washington, D.C. and in conjunction with his graduate studies, he became a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the United States National Museum (USNM)." --> "In 1898, in conjunction with his graduate studies, he moved to Washington, D.C. to become a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the United States National Museum (USNM)."
I moved the year around to avoid the double "in" at the beginning of the sentence. Otherwise, this is done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "He retained his post at USNM until 1912 and taught physiology (1903–1904 and 1907–1909) and bacteriology (1909–1915) at Howard University Medical School." This sentence combines two unrelated points, linking them with "and". I think this sentence should be split up.
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "In the latter half of 1915, he began teaching at George Washington University Medical School, handling courses in bacteriology and pathology from 1915 until 1917 ... " --> "In the latter half of 1915, he began teaching at George Washington University Medical School, handling courses in bacteriology and pathology until 1917 ... " - no need to mention 1915 twice.
Good catch. Should have been obvious. Fixed. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "Lyon served in the U.S. Army during World War I, joining in 1917 and serving as a pathologist at the Walter Reed Army Hospital for two years." --> "From 1917, Lyon joined the U.S. Army for two years, serving as a pathologist at the Walter Reed Army Hospital during World War I."
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "His wife, Martha, was also extended the same offer, and joined the clinic as an ophthalmologist." --> "His wife, Martha, was extended the same offer, and joined as an ophthalmologist."
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • The final paragraph of the "career" section uses the word "incorporated" three times.
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "After moving to Indiana in 1919 ... " --> "After he moved to Indiana ... ". No need to say when he moved there again.
Done. – Maky 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

 Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 22:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. Somehow I missed these comments while I was moving. I will address them tonight. – Maky 11:53, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing these problems. I can now support the article.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your time reviewing the article and suggesting fixes. – Maky 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments. I'm copyediting the article; please revert anything I accidentally screw up. I'll try to give detailed rationales in the edit summaries for anything non-trivial. I'll add comments below as I go through the article.

  • Poking about in Google Books brought up the "Annual Report of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution" for the year ending 30 June 1906, which shows Lyon as having been appointed Assistant Curator in the Division of Mammals during the prior year. This directly contradicts your source that gives the dates as 1898-1900; I would think the Annual Report is the more reliable source for this. The 1908 report shows him still with that title; I'll see if I can find more examples. Aha! Googling "marcus lyon aid division of mammals 1910" under Google Books brings up a "Guide to the Smithsonian Archives", issue 5, which has this snippet visible in the search: "Other staff members of the Division of Mammals have included Marcus Ward Lyon, Jr., Aid, 1898- 1906, and Assistant Curator, 1906- 1909". For some reason that information doesn't come up inside the book, but I think that's enough to doubt your other source.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

For some reason, I am not having the same luck with your search strings on Google Books. Searching "marcus lyon aid division of mammals 1910" did not pull up "Guide to the Smithsonian Archives", but instead pulled up the Historical Catalogue of Brown University. I did find the snippet you mentioned by searching directly for the volume—here is a link. As you said, your source says "Aid, 1898- 1906, and Assistant Curator, 1906- 1909", whereas the one from Brown University says "assistant curator, U. S. National Museum 1905–12". It seems like every source says something different, and even though I'm inclined to trust a source from the Smithsonian, I'm worried we're getting into original research. Your thoughts before I proceed with any changes? – Maky 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Now finished with the copyedit. I'm ready to support once the issue above with the dates of his assistant curatorship has been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the copyedit! I'm fine with the changes you made. I have made comments above regarding the factual error, but will need your help resolving it. – Maky 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
How about changing the text just to indicate that he was assistant curator "for a time", or something neutral like that, and then adding a footnote that gives the multiple sources and the varying date ranges? I would include the "Annual Reports", if you can find them; if not I'd be glad to add them for you. I think those are probably the most reliable source among those we're discussing because they are direct documentation of that year, and they're not really primary -- primary would be a letter from him to the Smithsonian accepting the post, I would say. I don't think it's OR to include sources like this, but unfortunately one can't do much with them other than confirm that he had the post that year -- by their nature it's not going to be easy to identify the end of his term. Though if you can find the annual reports for the years before and after his appointment I think that could suffice -- again, with the situation explained in the note. Do you think this is an acceptable approach? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:37, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm fine with the footnote idea, and will implement that now. I found digital copies of the Annual Reports by year at BHL. However, I can't search the content using the web interface, and the PDFs take forever to download, otherwise I would look at every year for a more complete record. Using the OCR to search the volume ending 30 June 1906, I don't see where it says Lyon was appointed Assistant Curator in the Division of Mammals the previous year as you claimed. What page were you on? Anyway, I'll see what I can do. – Maky 18:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
This is the "about this book" link; the text is on page 50. Let me know if that doesn't work for you and I can give you the exact text. I'll keep digging and see if I can find the announcement of his successor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. Because the book is for the "year ending June 30, 1906", it's impossible to say if he was promoted in 1905 or 1906, I think. If you could suggest a final sentence for that second note (b), I will use the link you provided as a reference. As it stands, I think the note says what can be said. – Maky 04:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
I've switched to support, above, while we tweak the wording on this; this is just a detail. I think the note can go into details that would be too tedious for the main text, so how about making this the second sentence of that note: "According to the Guide to the Smithsonian Archives, he was an Aid from 1898 until 1906 and Assistant Curator from 1906 to 1909, and this is supported by the museum's annual report for the year ending June 30, 1906, which recorded his promotion to Assistant Curator during the preceding twelve months." That places the information adjacent to the other source directly related to the Smithsonian, and puts the two most likely to be accurate first in the note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
I just made another tweak to clarify that McIntosh and the Brown source don't give dates for his post as Aid; as a result I've moved the McIntosh ref to the end to cover that clause. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the suggestion and tweak. I tweaked it further by showing it start date for the Aid position, and I tried to find an end date for his Assistant Curator position, but those volumes appear to stop reporting personnel changes before 1909. Feel free to tweak the wording further to fit your taste. Also, I was wondering if you had an opinion on the photo of the tombstone at Arlington (mentioned at the top of this page)? I'm pretty sure it was taken by an employee of the US Government, but they are not responding to my emails. It would be nice to add a picture near the bottom of the article to break up the monotony of the text. Regardless, thanks again for the helpful and copyedit review. – Maky 16:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
What you've done looks fine. I looked at the tombstone page but can't figure out whether it is PD, though like you I suspect it is. Sorry, not an expert on that sort of thing. Anyway, nice article; I hope it gets promoted. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC) .

Laura Secord

Nominator(s): Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it is a comprehensive article on the Chocoloate Lady this War of 1812 heroine, and an important part of early Canadian mythology.

Ideally, I'd like to see it as Today's Featured Article on 22 June 2013, which is the 200th anniversary of her famous walk through enemy-controlled territory to inform the British of an impending American attack. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by Rschen7754

This is my first full review of a non-road FAC, so I won't be supporting or opposing until others review.

Personal history
Memory and legend

Review by Dank

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • Hi Curly, thanks for bringing this to FAC. The lead needs to be longer; about twice as long would do it, as long as it does a good job summarizing the article. I'll be back with more a little later. - Dank (push to talk) 18:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Oh, dear. Oh, deary, deary, dear. Natty10000 doesn't seem to agree, as s/he has gutted the lead not just once (18 January), but twice (19 January) since I've submitted this article for FAC. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Okay, don't do anything with it yet, I'll go ask Natty what's up. - Dank (push to talk) 22:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
        • I think we can compromise here; I agree that it has a bit more detail than it needs, and I'll trim a bit. See what you think. - Dank (push to talk) 22:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
          • I certainly don't have any problem with a trimming, but cutting out the info about the chocolate company is a big mistake. It can hardly be understated how strongly Canadians associated her name with chocolates, even amongst those familiar with the historical Secord. The first thing most Canadians think of when you mention her name is chocolates. In fact, I first visited the article myself to find out when she founded "her" chocolate company. I think it's important to emphasize they she is both unrelated to the chocolate company, and that her name is strongly associated with the chocolate company amongst Canadians. Otherwise, Canadians (who will almost certainly be the vast majority of readers) will be confused as to her relation with the company (as I was).
            • I didn't cut the information out of the article, I just reduced the bit in the lead to "Laura Secord Chocolates are named for her." Change it however you want ... but if it feels too much like "product placement", then I'll stop here. - Dank (push to talk) 00:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
              • I do undertand the "product placement" concerns, but please keep in mind that a quite significant number (quite likely a majority) of Canadian readers who come to this article will be curious about her realtion to the chocolate company. "Laura Secord Chocolates are named after her" only raises more questions than it answers. The fact that the fame of the chocolate company far overshadows Secord's own has more than one reference in the article, and I'm sure I could come up with more with little effort.
              • How about something like this? —
                Before: "On the centennial of her walk, businessman Frank Patrick O'Connor named Laura Secord Chocolates in her honour; it became the most successful candy retailer in Canada, and though the historical Secord and her family had no relation to it, amongst Canadians her name is most often associated with the candy company."
                After: "Though the historical Secord and her family had no relation to it, most Canadians associate her name with the Laura Secord Chocolates company, which was named in her honour on the centennial of her walk."
              • I'm not really sure it's a good idea to leave out the "Canada's most successful candy retailer"; while I sympathise with the "product placement" concern, it does give context for non-Canadian readers—as in: why would Canadians associate her name with a candy company, and even if they do, why does it have to be in the lead?
          • If you're going to do more more trimming to the lead, there's one more detail I think is important not to lose: that her father fought on the American side in the Revolutionary war. Before I atrarted editing it, the article claimed Thomas Ingersoll was a United Empire Loyalist (uncited, of course). It's a belief held by (or assumed) a certain number of Canadians, and I think it's important to disabuse readers of that notion. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Sure, I'm fine with those changes. - Dank (push to talk) 01:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I would make "(where she stopped at the home of her half-brother Charles, who was ill in bed)" a note; I think it's a bit tangential and interrupts the flow of that sentence. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The two instances of " are said to " in the personal description section leave me a little skeptical ... who said? - Dank (push to talk) 00:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:10, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Review by Nikkimaria

Sources and images - spotchecks not done. Disclaimer: have previously edited the article

Review by Paul MacDermott

  • Support I have reviewed this article using text-to-speech software, so please note there are aspects of it I haven't checked, such as images, but those seem to have been covered by other reviewers. Having listened to it several times over the last few days I find it reads well and provides a broad coverage of the topic. I like articles where I come away having learnt something interesting, and as someone from the UK I was unaware of Laura Secord and the role she played in history. One suggestion I have (though this is optional) is adding the pronunciation of her surname. My software pronounces it as "Seecord", but I've no idea if that is correct. Paul MacDermott (talk) (disclaimer) 12:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd actually wanted to include a pronunciation, but have been unable to find a reliable source that provides one. Growing up in Canada, everyone around me pronounced Laura Secord Chocolates as /ˈsikɔɹd/; when I took my family to the Laura Secord Homestead last summer, the staff pronounced her name that way as well. The Japanese wiki site for her (jp:ローラ・セコール) has her name pronounced in a pseudo-French style (/sekoːɽɯ/), which made me doubt which was correct (I live in Japan, and looked it up for my wife). There are Japanese sources that give a pronunciation similar to the one I grew up with, though. There's a Yahoo! Answers page, which I'm fairly certain is a prank, that pronounces it /ˈlauɹə ˈsɛkɔɹd/. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.