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Publishing history of To Hell and Back

Of what value is this list? It looks extraordinarily trivial. Rklawton (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm open to your opinion. I didn't know if it should be there or not, so I stuck it on. Does it take away from the quality of the article? — Maile (talk) 00:46, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Audie Murphy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 04:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to take this review. In the next few days, I'll do a close readthrough, noting here any issues I can't immediately fix myself, and then follow with the criteria checklist. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Initial readthrough

This article is off to a good start; the prose is strong and the coverage of Murphy's WWII years, obviously the most important part, appears thorough. I've noted some smaller concerns below, but my biggest concern is that the article is constructed mostly from primary sources in its current form: documents from audiemurphy.com and Murphy's autobiography. This raises some concerns about reliability, but more importantly, it means that the article is largely limited to Murphy's World War II experiences, offering little discussion of his later career; for example, his extensive film and television career is covered in only four sentences. I'd suggest that these aspects of his life also be researched and included to meet the "main aspects" criterion for GA.

 Additional information needed Here's the problem I find on the sourcing. It's either Murphy's book, or it's audiemurphy.com There is scant little other information out there about his military career. One of the great ironies is that when I checked a lot of the military base Sergeant Audie Murphy Club sites, many of them had done a copy and paste from the old, unimproved Misplaced Pages article. This issue of sourcing on his military service is a stickler. Conversely, I found it a lot easier to source the filmography. — Maile (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

And if you've gotten as far as the references section on the honors and awards page, then you've read that all the government documents on Murphys service record are scanned at audiemurphy.com - that includes all the testimonies from witnesses that won him the awards. That site has all the information available, as far as military service goes. It just doesn't look good by Misplaced Pages standards. — Maile (talk) 21:05, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

For GA, the current level of sourcing should be okay. To approach FA, though, I'd definitely suggest balancing with secondary sources like , or . You're more familiar with the sources for Murphy than I, though, so perhaps there's reason to be skeptical of one or all of these. But it seems like there are a few sources out there that could give a secondary-source perspective. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I will work on finding the suggested books. I'd rather not have to purchase them. Hopefully, that sourcing can wait until FA. But it's a piece of information I've needed about what it takes to get this to FA. — Maile (talk) 12:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I hear you! Like I said, I think you're good for now as long as we can fill in the rest of his life (like the film career, etc.) without them. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

More suggestions below; let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for your work on this one. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Clicking through to the filmography article, it appears that you've done a great job there writing up these aspects of Murphy's career that I mentioned above. What I'd suggest would be to include a 4-6 paragraph summary of the filmography in the main article, instead of the current 4-sentence version. That way the main article also has sufficient coverage of this important aspect of Murphy's life. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:18, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

 Doing... I can work on the summary of the film career over on the main article. — Maile (talk) 21:19, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks. That would address my main concern. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• I've made small copyedits for grammar and style as I went; please feel free to revert anything you disagree with, and double-check that I haven't accidentally introduced any errors.
• "One of his namesakes assisted with his birth." -- this seems like an awfully minor detail to include in the lead.

 Done - removed — Maile (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Boarded out, he worked" -- can you clarify the "boarded out" here?

 Additional information needed This is Murphy's terminology. He did not elaborate. Any other place it's mention is verbatim from Murphy. I'm open to suggestions on this. — Maile (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd say leave it, then. Perhaps it can be clarified in the future from another source. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• The section "date of birth and height discrepancies" appears to lack secondary sources--are there any sources that explicitly compare these documents and discuss the discrepancies between them?

I'll work on this. There was much Discussion earlier, and it needs to be addressed. If I find nothing else, what do you suggest? — Maile (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I would suggest leaving it, but finding a way to give it less weight in the article. It gets a lot of article space (a whole subsection) for a controversy that appears to exist only on a Misplaced Pages talk page. Maybe it could be mentioned in just a sentence or two that varying brithdates for Murphy exist, or moved into an explanatory footnote. Does that seem reasonable? -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done Per your excellent suggestion, I put the entire date of birth controversy into explanatory footnotes. I completely eliminated the height issue - that was more likely clerical error with each medical exam. I have to admit, it looks a lot better with the DoB issue down in footnotes. — Maile (talk) 00:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks much better, thanks.

• ""Existence has taken on the quality of a dream in which I am detached ..."" -- I'm not sure this quotation is needed here; it seems like a mere restatement of the "complete daze" description, and the transition is awkward grammatically.

 Done - removed — Maile (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Murphy's 1949 autobiography To Hell and Back spent 14 weeks on the bestseller lists when it was originally published." -- a reliable source should be given for this figure (not Amazon)

 Done - I've removed the claim entirely. Another one of those things that everybody copies from everybody with no verification, except Amazon. — Maile (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• Publishing history of To Hell and Back -- listing every edition of this book and its OCLC seems like an unneeded level of detail. It's not a dealbreaker for GA status, but my personal suggestion would be to cut it.

 Done - removed — Maile (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

*The discussion of Murphy's film career is quite brief. How did critics view his performances? Were any of his Westerns particularly notable? Was the television series a success?

• • This isn't a reliable source, but even this quick summary suggests there's much more that could be written here. Ditto this.
• I'm not sure the thwarted carjacking qualifies as a "legal issue"--did Murphy face any legal complications from the incident?

 Additional information needed For the moment, I created a Miscellaneous category for this. I'm open to suggestion. — Maile (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I retitled it "Attempted carjacking", and also moved the section up so it appeared before some things that happened later chronologically. Is that okay with you? -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• The incident in which Murphy was charged with attempted murder could use a bit more detail (such as the allegation that Murphy fired a pistol at the man, and the circumstances of the incident).

I'll work on this. Don't know exactly what is out there, but I'll look. — Maile (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done This is taken care of now. — Maile (talk) 22:16, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• I'd strongly suggest cutting the text of Murphy's tombstone; it adds no new information, is unusual in its formatting, and the text is clearly visible in the image anyway. At a minimum I'd suggest moving the lengthy "key to abbreviations" text to a footnote.

 Done - removed — Maile (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• "An unknown person maintains a small American flag" -- is there a source for this, and are we sure this is up-to-date (i.e., it's still being done?)

 Done - removed - I didn't insert the original text and have no idea where that came from. — Maile (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• "First Lieutenant Murphy was one of very few company-grade officers ever to be awarded the Legion of Merit. That decoration is usually awarded only to officers of the rank of lieutenant colonel and above" -- is there a source for this? This analysis seems like a bit of WP:SYNTH, given that the source doesn't mention Murphy at all. It also seems like it would fit better in the earlier discussion of his awards--unless the legion of merit was added posthumously?

 Done - removed - I didn't insert the original text and have no idea where that came from. — Maile (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Texas Congressman Ralph Hall commemorated the 25th anniversary" -- do many sources about Murphy mention this event? It seems fairly trivial for a man of Murphy's fame, and relies only on a primary source document. This might be better cut, or moved to the awards and honours subpage. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done - moved to Audie Murphy honors and awards — Maile (talk) 20:36, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Remaining

• I think the only significant issue remaining is to flesh out the summary of Murphy's film/TV career. Once that's done, I'll make a second top-to-bottom copyedit to be sure you and I haven't inadvertently added new errors or problems with our changes.

I'm working on this and hope to have it done by today. Just double checking on some references. — Maile (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done I've re-worked this. Citation bot was run to catch any reference duplications. Earwig @ Toolserver Copyvio Detector shows no copyright issues. An odd piece of history I ran across was that the movie Lee Harvey Oswald was watching when they nabbed him for the JFK assassination, was War is Hell that was narrated by Murphy. If you think it doesn't belong in that section, you can remove it. — Maile (talk) 17:54, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks excellent. And I agree that the Oswald bit is interesting enough to include. I'll do that second full copyedit now; I imagine we're close to done with this one. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• On a much smaller note, now that the reference to the Congressional Record has been moved out of the article body, it should also be removed from the lead. Personally, I would suggest simply eliminating the reference in the lead to his being a poet; it doesn't appear to have been a significant aspect of his life, didn't make him any money or win any awards, and wasn't mentioned in the summary biographies I looked at through Gale databases, etc.

 Done — Maile (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• The phrase in the lead, "his 1949 World War II narrative", implies that the book could be either fiction or memoir; "memoir" might be a bit more specific here. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done — Maile (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Second readthrough and checklist

Okay, only a few small issues on this pass.

• "His first wife, Wanda Hendrix, claimed that he once held her at gunpoint" -- claimed should probably be written as "stated" or "said" here per WP:WTA -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done — Maile (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Golfstein claimed that Murphy arrived with the client and a boxer who was never named ... He also claimed Murphy stuck a gun in his stomach and tried to abduct him." Another case that should probably be changed to "said" per WP:WTA. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done — Maile (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• "However, Hoffa was freed seven months after Murphy's death and no forensic evidence has arisen to suggest the plane crash was in any way connected to the Hoffa case or not the result of an accident" -- does the source support this second statement? I admit that I only skimmed it, but it seems not to mention the "no evidence has arisen". This perhaps needs to be cut as original research. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done Removed everything about Hoffa. I'm not the one who originally put that there, and it's always bothered me. One of those conspiracy things that's not definite. Just as well to have it gone. — Maile (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It doesn't seem widely mentioned in sources on Murphy, so no need to have it and confuse the issue. -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Prose is excellent; spotchecks show no copyright issues.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Article is well illustrated with appropriate and captioned images.
	7. Overall assessment.	Pass

Misplaced Pages Audie Murphy article on Amazon.com

Worth noting here when I ran a Toolserver copyvio on this page today, Amazon's link to the WP Audie Murphy page triggered a false positive on copyvio. Theirs is apparently a direct link to WP, because edits I made today are current on that Amazon AM page.— Maile (talk) 12:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Awards suggestion

Suggest you consider changing "Awards" in the info box (and other such boxes) to "Decorations" because the rest of the awards (not decorations) are not listed in the box. Someone said before that this was too much or big of a change to make.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs) 3:59 13 March 2013

The infobox is a protected template. The parameters of that can only be edited by Administrators. You need to post this at Template talk:Infobox military person — Maile (talk) 23:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Anachronism

In 1946 there was no such crime as "carjacking", therefore there could not have been a "carjack suspect". The first known use of the term was in 1991:. ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 05:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Back then it was called a "holdup", but the meaning of words can change over time, and "holdup" relates more to stopping a vehicle to rob the passengers of their property, rather than the vehicle itself, in people's minds. Wiki aims to target a modern audience, and because the crime itself involved the attempted theft of a car, then the use of "carjack" sounds more appropriate than "a holdup", which may have lost its bygone meaning to many readers. I can't find anything in the MOS that relates to this kind of old to new translation directly, but I think MOS:COMMONALITY would apply best here, in that "carjack" has but one meaning, "holdup" several. Ma®©usBritish 06:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, but it just reads (to me) as being odd and amateurish. Especially the "suspect" part, since there was no such crime. I couldn't find the cited source on the internet, so I can't make any informed suggestions.  ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 06:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I know, couldn't find it myself. There's a lot of the language in the article that is not of a high standard.. we're aiming to improve it to FA, but it takes time and patience, as new content is being added daily that often requires copy-editing. Ma®©usBritish 07:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Have changed it around a bit, should read better now. Thanks for the concerns. Ma®©usBritish 07:09, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I thought about changing section header: 'Attempted carjacking' → 'Foiled crime' -to better represent content. Otherwise it might be misleading. — But I figured I'd post it here for consensus.   ~Good luck on the FA!  ☆   ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 16:34, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

When we were doing the GA review, I had it here and there, trying to place it. It was the GA reviewer Khazar2 who moved it to that particular heading. Since it was the GA reviewer who did that, I'm leaning towards their knowing what they were doing. So, until this article gets put up for an A review on its hopeful rise to FA, maybe it won't hurt to let the GA reviewer's heading stand. — Maile (talk) 16:53, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with another user changing that heading, FWIW. I think I was moving it out of the "Legal troubles" section at the time, and to be honest didn't put a lot of thought into the new header. -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:50, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Source found (modified citation, thus):

• "130-pound Hero Fells 190-pound Holdup Suspect" (PDF). Dallas Morning News and Associated Press. Volume 2, Spring 1997: Audie L. Murphy Memorial newsletter. December 11, 1946. p. 18. Retrieved March 15, 2013.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

This ref syntax is misleading, but I don't know how to fix it (1946 date relates to AP news article, which is in 1997 newsletter ; and URL should probably link to newsletter instead of article ; also, p. 18 of the PDF corresponds to p. 16 of the newsletter).   ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 04:22, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Multiple references

Why the use of multiple citations (up to five at a time) in the section European Theatre? This is excessive and affects readability. Unless anyone objects, I suggest they be pruned. Hohenloh 14:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:MILMOS#CITE: "The nature of historical material requires that articles be thoroughly—even exhaustively—cited." Depending on the claims being referenced, the degree of support can vary.. i.e. controversial or challengeable material often requires more sourcing to substantiate the content. Five citations isn't really a great deal, and given that the article is being aimed at FA, thorough referencing is going to be important. Pruning should be handled with extreme care, as it may be seen as biased or selective referencing. Ma®©usBritish 15:05, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Holtzwihr, France section

I have replaced the text entirely with the version that existed prior to March 9. Much of what was done since March 9 was lifted in its entirety from Newsletter 8 of www.audiemurphy.com. Too tedious to go sentence by sentence. It wasn't just what Duplication Detector caught. As I made a side by side comparison, it was plagiarism of Spec McClure's prose in Newsletter 8. Will check the other sections..— Maile (talk) 15:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

A history on what has been happening to this. The copyvio was originally posted on March 9 by YahwehSaves. I reverted it out. YahwehSaves reverted me. After I reverted it today, YahwehSaves did a second revert. I posted a request for help at WikiProject Military history. Uninvolved editor Binksternet agreed that this was copyvio. He had reverted the copyvio and left a message on the talk page for YahwehSaves. — Maile (talk) 21:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Is this a sham, the AMF newsletter wasn't and isn't on the "See Also" list. The article editing improvements and corrections like Editor Binksternet said was done in good faith, I corrected the ranks of Lottie Tipton and Joe Sieja to pfc and they should not be made privates again...

Apparent quotes not being quoted

There are a number of sentences in this article that are apparent quotes from statements by other soldiers or even Murphy himself, but they are not being quoted. All of these need to be examined closely for potential plagiarism and re-worded so they are not closely paraphrased. Here is an example: "Murphy was surrounded by enemy infantry fire, and he stood in the midst of rising smoke and flames, his clothing ripped by artillery aimed directly at him." Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Example was introduced here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Audie_Murphy&diff=541348099&oldid=541134451. Ma®©usBritish 01:05, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

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