Misplaced Pages

• Oppose. A quick look through Category:Misplaced Pages guidelines and Misplaced Pages:Policies_and_guidelines#Types_of_guidelines reveals plenty of guideline titles in the command tense, but only one (Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers) uses the word "please". Avoiding biting the newcomers can be difficult and subjective, and we've all been there. But typing four tildes isn't really asking much. Melchoir 23:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

165.230.149.151 23:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC) Ann C never worked at WKJG. Also the Karen Frankola lawsuit was a minor part of the history of this station since it ruled in the stations favor anyway. Most people don't know or care about this.

Result

Not moved. Eugene van der Pijll 20:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

External links in signatures

I propose that we add this to the WhatToAvoid section. Zocky 19:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

Mass posting of links to a particular website is strongly discouraged on Misplaced Pages. Posting a link to an external website with each comment you make on a talk page is likely to be viewed as spamming or an attempt to improve your website's ranking on search engines. If you have to tell other Wikipedians about a good website that you are associated with, please do so on your user page.

comments

• Agreed. It seems necessary. For example, User:Stirling Newberry has essentially said on User talk:Zocky that he will not stop until policy comes about against him. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-9 19:44
• Agreed. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 21:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• agreed most strongly -- sannse (talk) 21:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• Speedy agree, with a comment that they may/will be removed on sight. -- Netoholic @ 21:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I've already done so for all of his signatures. I don't consider it any different from link spam in article external links. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-9 22:03
• I concur, it sets a precedent that can far too easily be abused. DS 22:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• Agreed. bogdan 22:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• Sounds reasonable. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
• I agree that external links should be discouraged in sigs. Rhobite 04:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
• Agreed. -- DS1953 04:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
• I Support the discouragement of this practice.--cjllw | TALK 01:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Agree -- murder1 04:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

One line summary

There being a need for concise one line summaries of guidelines, I offer this version. Please feel free to change it as necessary, and update the template Template:Guideline one liner to suit your taste. Please don't remove it simply because you think the summary is inaccurate for this guideline. Comments and opinions welcome! Stevage 03:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Formatting the Date

I've recently tried signin documents by manually typing in the date, because I didn't like the default format. However, a couple of other user were concerned, even after omitting the date with 3 tildes. I was wondering if it was possible to format the date, so it shows the Month DD, Year, X:XX AM rather than DD Month, Year 01:23 -- Eddie 08:06, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

If mummy feeds you chocolate every day then some day dies, you will have to go and get your own chocolate - even though you don't like it. If she teaches you the wrong way to do things then you won't like it having to change. You can remain backward while the rest of the world slowly slowly moves forward LEARNING the logical and admittedly initially more difficult way. It took me some years of self control before I could use the correct format and now it irritates me to hear people wanting to retain a completely irrational date format. 20060306182127 Now that may look complicated to you for the first time. When it has been used a hundred times you will find that people who use anything else are making life very complicated. I will undertake the job of proving this (since I am so obsessed with it) because there are a lot of people who do not comprehend. I will return when it has been clearly and logically explained and you will then hopefully not think of me being so arrogant as I do appear here. Kenneth Keen 00:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC) 20060307004729

Thtmkssmchsnssttmptngtwrtnglshwthtspcsrvwls. (That says "That makes as much sense as attempting to write English without spaces or vowels", for those of you who are still sucking at your mummy's teat of irrationality.) --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 09:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see someone awake. When you have not been taught to use a telephone then you will look at the plastic in someone's hand and say "Well if I want to talk to you then I won't want to use this". That is natural. It takes a certain amount of openness and of course "intelligence" to be able to comprehend something which has not yet been explained. It is good to see someone who responds to something which appears illogical rather than just not understanding and moving on. You have prodded it to see if it is alive. Yes, it is and yes it is 100% rational. Humans are not 100% rational. We have to learn to be rational and that is not easy. The rational here is simply the biggest number first. Simple. Rational. And when you teach this to a child of three and it is comprehended then you try teaching that child when it reached the age of 6 that some people want to put the middle number first, then a smaller one and then two smaller ones and then the biggest and then the next smaller he will look at you and ask "Are you serious?" For various reasons the recording of time has left us with all variations of recording the date and once you understand the concept there is no argument against the logic one except that it is difficult for those of us who have learnt the illogical one. The British had that problem last century when they were confronted with the problem of adopting the metric system. No one wanted this difficult metric system, having been used to the "convenient" imperial system. Thankfully, someone forced it upon them and now only people like my mother is still having difficulty. In some years there will be almost no one who is harking back to have the old system reinstalled. Unfortunately when we deal with world markets we come across those who are still fiddling around with antiquated systems, "because they don't LIKE the new ones". Without a little effort (the very essence which sets humans above the animals) we would still be grovelling around in holes in the ground but a certain spirit in us motivated those who were the winners, to take up some tools and use them. You don't want to be left behind do you? (Give yourself three years, then you will see, it is like picking up a phone - how would you do without it? Am I guilty of proselytizing here?)Kenneth Keen 23:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

why tildes?

im wondering. why tildes? 71.96.87.21 03:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I suppose because some keyboard symbol needed to be used, and tildes aren't used for much else, and they're conveniently located in the corner of the keyboard.

My question is, why doesn't Misplaced Pages automatically sign your comments for you on talk pages? I could see requiring a manual sig if you wanted to allow logged-in users to post on talk pages anonymously, but people can sign your unsigned posts for you, so that can't be the point. So what is the point? Nareek 14:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

How would the server know where to sign your name? Zocky | picture popups 05:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It would put it at the end of new text inserted onto a discussion page, I guess. Though when you put it that way, I can see how that would create some problems--mainly, people wouldn't be able to edit their comments. Nareek 13:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Plus, sometimes people make two comments in the same edit. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 09:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Also there are occasions when you don't need to sign a post on a talk page, e.g. if you are archiving, correcting a typo, adding and {{unsigned}} template, reformatting, etc. Sometime you want to sign things that aren't talk pages, e.g deletion debates. Thryduulf 12:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Refusal to sign comments

I've had to deal with a user to refuses to sign his comments on the talk pages. He's made a lot of comments, so going through each one and adding {{unsigned}} is not easy to do. What should I do about it? At what point are unsigned comments vandalism? Could they be removed? Aucaman 09:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I have seen many failures to sign comments on the talk pages. I consider unsigned comments vandalism when the contents are very meaningless, but I am not very sure whether to remove the vandalism. I may prefer adding <!--- things visible to editors but not readers --->.--Jusjih 07:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

how can it be vandalism if this is just a guideline, rather than policy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.200.192.144 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC).

Guideline or policy?

This is listed as a guideline, but I see no reason that it shouldn't be a policy. Thoughts? android79 16:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, doing it this way probably prevents bickering over what is and isn't covered by the policy/guideline. I also have to wonder about the part about transclusion, where it says "imagine what it would be like if everyone did that"... actually, I don't have to imagine it; almost everyone does that on the Homestar Runner Wiki, and it apparently doesn't cause problems. But maybe there's something about Misplaced Pages so that it wouldn't work the same way? (for instance, they apparently have had issues with our version of the "new messages" bar, with the "last change" link). Yeltensic42 don't panic 21:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"|"'s in signatures

• Halló! I just want to drop a note about "|"-characters in signatures which are / where very common. With such a signature you will not be able to sign inside templates.
• A signature that is valid in all projects looks like

] ·  · ]

• When refering to other projects it is most safe to use "generic namespace names". Note That only "w:en:" and "m:" are interwiki prefixes who work in all Wikimedia Foundation projects known to me. Bests regards Gangleri · Th · T 18:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

62.171.194.37 09:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Unsigned template

Is it ok to add an explanation on using the unsigned template to the main page? Something like this...

Dealing with unsigned comments

The template {{unsigned}} can be used at the end of an unsigned comment to attach the username or ip to the comment.

Usage

{{subst:unsigned|user name or ip|date}}

Example

{{subst:unsigned|88.88.88.88}} becomes —This unsigned comment was added by 88.88.88.88 (talk • contribs) .

{{subst:unsigned|John Doe}} becomes —This unsigned comment was added by John Doe (talk • contribs) .

{{subst:unsigned|John Doe|23:59, 1 April, 2006 (UTC)}} becomes —This unsigned comment was added by John Doe (talk • contribs) 23:59, 1 April, 2006 (UTC).

I added the above to the page. For more discussion, see the following:
Wikipedia_talk:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages#Response_to_removal_of_unsigned_templates.3F
Template_talk:Unsigned#Removal_of_message_by_user
Shawnc 01:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

eight ~s

Why does 8 ~s in a row make this signature:

02:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)TheJabberwock

? TheJabberwock 02:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Because the software takes the first five ~ to mean "DATE" and the latter three ~ to mean "NAME". If your question is why it doesnt turn out as "NAMEDATE NAMEDATE" or "DATE NAME", that's pretty easy to: The software checks for five consecutive ~ first, then for four consecutive ~, and for three consecutive ~ last, so that "~~~~~" doesn't turn out as "NAME ~~" instead of "DATE"... Hope I could help! 12:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

cool

Response to removal of unsigned templates?

Based on a comment on Template talk:Unsigned, and my experience with a disruptive user on Talk:Heaven's Stairway, I would like to know what the appropriate response should be for a user who repeatedly removes unsigned templates. —Viriditas | Talk 01:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

try this--annon

Simple as that--E-Bod 22:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Futher explain customizing signatures

The "customizing your signature" section is unclear. How do you simply change its color, for instance? I'd explain, but I am still to figure it out myself... --Chodorkovskiy 16:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's easy. Just copy the following text into your nickname box in preferences:

] --Chodorkovskiy 05:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I knew someone would help me! --Chodorkovskiy 05:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Tip of the day/June 30, 2006. --GeorgeMoney 04:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Cyrillic signatures

A lot of users I've seen have chosen to sign their name in the Cyrillic alphabet, for aesthetic purposes I assume. However this renders their signature practically unreadable to those English speakers who do not read Cyrillic (who, dare I say, may be in the majority?). I'm a big opponent of using signatures that do not easily convey someone's true username so I'd like to add to WP:SIG a note about not using Cyrillic. Is there any support for this? GT 21:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Assuming you are talking about en.wp then I agree, a romanisation should be given where possible. It doesn't seem too much to ask the user to sign their name in the appropriate alphabet and if a user can read a language well enough to contribute then that user can probably sign their name with that language too. This seems to be wikipedia policy for articles so I can't see why it shouldn't also apply to discussion pages. — Flooq @ 03:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the users can always just click on the name to get the user name if they really need to know it. JoshuaZ 02:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This should also apply to discussion pages to create conformity. --Siva1979 03:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

unsigned2 useful

A small thing, but I find that {{unsigned2}} is more often useful to me than {{unsigned}}, and was surprised not to find it in the Dealing with unsigned comments section. As noted in the template's talk page, it is perfect for use when cut-n-pasting from page histories. Any problem with adding this here as a one line mention? Shenme 04:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's much more useful than {{unsigned}}. ~MDD4696 16:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Signature length poll

GeorgeMoney is running a poll to see whether his signature is too long. Voice your opinion. ~MDD4696 16:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

To make your own poll, go to Misplaced Pages:Signature Poll.

Reference to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-

At least one arbitration case contains a policy principle relevant to signatures. I have accordingly added the following statement:

A distracting, confusing or otherwise unsuitable signature affects other users, and a user with an unsuitable signature may be required to change it (See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-).

--Tony Sidaway 06:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Imposing signature restrictions

Given the recent debacle over Nathanrdotcom's signature, I think it'd be appropriate to discuss imposing technical limitations on signatures. I find images in signatures abhorrent, and I see no reason why someone should be able to have a 4000 character signature on Misplaced Pages (both are currently possible).

If others agree, I'd like to generate consensus on what these limitations should be. I propose a 512 byte or 200 character limit to signature size, and a ban on images. For reference, this paragraph is 223 bytes/characters.

After some discussion, perhaps we can have a straw poll. However, I'd like some others' opinions or thoughts first. ~MDD4696 21:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Some thoughts on the proposal, feel free to add to them:

• The purpose of signatures is to make it easy for people to identify who posted a specific comment.
• Signatures that take up many lines in the wikicode make it difficult to read.
• Images take up more bandwidth than text.
• Using an image in a signature renders "What links here" useless for that image.
• MediaWiki stores signatures as bytes in the database, so I'm not sure how the limit would be implemented technically. Regular ASCII characters only take 1 byte, whereas fancier Unicode and such take 3, so depending on how the limit is specified, it may end of being higher (bytewise) or lower (characterwise) than intended.

Limits on images

I'm all for banning images from sigs, if for no other reason than it creating tonnes of extra work when a sig image is deemed to be redundant, for example several old reduldant flag images still linger because they are still used on a couple of hundred talk pages, deletion discussions and so on. In such cases sig images add considerabe amounts of work with image cleanup, we can not expect images to last forever. If someone wants to rename, or replace a image with a better version and the old image happens to have been used in a sig it creats tonnes of extra work. Since File links only show 500 links it means that if the image is used across hundreds of talk pages you have to remove all ocurances of the image from those pages just to be eable to see if the image is actualy used in some articles too. Even if that issue is fixed it would still be a lot of extra work to sift though all the links to find "legitemate" users before the image is deleted (wich would leave tonnes of ugly redlinks all over the talk pages. I don't think the bandwidth issue is a major problem though, most sig images are tiny, and images can be used tastefully, and generaly don't clutter up the wikicode, I'm most concerned about the the "spam" to the file links, and such. --Sherool (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I support banning images in signatures, and would add a ban on super- and sub-script as well as large and small font sizes. Exploding Boy 23:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that banning any particular styling would be rather difficult to generate consensus on. Let's try to start with images and a max signature length. ~MDD4696 23:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think "creativity" is a valuable attribute for signatures. There are plenty of outlets for creativity in the world. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a social networking site. Fnarf999 23:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC

• I'm all for imposing restrictions on sigs, and I think I, for the most part, could agree with this proposal. I'd suggest, however, that one image, a small .png, is not extremely excessive, though certainly not preferable. Super- and sub-scripts within signatures don't bother me much, as long as I can tell what link takes me where. What I absolutely cannot stand are imbedded links that give no indication of where the link will take me; i.e., I can't stand the small green Esperanzian e's and, as with Mdd4696, where part of the sig takes me to a talk page, part to a user page, and part to contribs. I have no problem with Example /_C or Example (something that somehow means talk), just so long as I know what each link does. (In fact, I think I'd prefer if everyone would link his sig in some form to his talk page.) Colors, etc., don't bother me much until I go to write a reply and can't read through all of the wikicode to figure out who I'm talking too, which I think could be solved by imposing a size limit on the sig. In other words, let's turn this baby into a proposal! AmiDaniel (talk) 23:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• Heh, I rather like my signature... it's all about being subtle, you know? I guess the reason it doesn't bother me is that I don't mind hovering the mouse over a link for the title to pop up, but I can see how it could get annoying. ~MDD4696 04:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'm on the fence. I added additional "cons" to the list above. If done purely technically, it takes time away from the programmers; if there are non-technical aspects to it, it's m:Instruction creep, which isn't in my opinion a trivial problem. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think we have to worry about this being much of a problem for the devs, although we could ask. ~MDD4696 04:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I don't agree with imposing rules on signatures. People should be able to exercise reasonable discretion as long as their signature doesn't pose a problem. Stupidly large, distracting or misleading signatures can already be dealt with as disruption under current policy, as observed (and enacted) for instance in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-. --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• In contrast with the Tony, I am for imposing limited rules on signatures. There's no justified purpose in having images in signatures. The WP:SIG page itself says images are discouraged, but offers the only reason they aren't banned outright that "some people have objected to such a ban, arguing it would stifle creativity." As Fnarf notes above, Misplaced Pages is not a community/social-networking site like MySpace where people tag their identities with supposedly "cute" or "creative" graphics. The purpose of a signature here is as an identifier during discussion, and non-textual injections of graphics can be not only a distraction, but when they show up repeatedly on a page, a downright nuisance— no matter how small. There's no need to be subjective and spend time arbitrarily deciding which signature graphics are "stupid" or appropriate; just say no to images altogether, and the issue is moot. Contrary to Exploding Boy, I think that super/subscript usage isn't a concern (obviously, as I superscript "talk" in my sig.) However an over-sized John Hancock can likewise be an annoyance.—Leflyman 02:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I should clarify my comment above by stating that, of course, I consider all images in signatures to be completely inappropriate. However I would not want to make strong policy on this at the moment. --Tony Sidaway 11:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Kill sig images dead. But allow markup unless it gets to more than, say, six lines in the edit window (or 696 characters, in other words). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly kill sig images, they don't accomplish much and make talk pages slower when loading from a slow connection. I'd support a limit on sig character length, but haven't made up my mind precisely what one is good. I note however that Simetrical's proposal is close to useless since even the most egregious sigs are rarely 6 lines. (Maybe 4 lines max?). JoshuaZ 04:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• The more I think about it the more I'm in favour of removing all ability to screw with signatures. Pick a user name, and get on with editing. There are plenty of other sites where people can get "creative." Exploding Boy 04:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Block image use. As image use in signatures appears to raise a great deal of ire in many, and numerous users use them, many without even realizing that they are inappropriate...I move to block all use of them. I have also noticed a number of administrators that use them as well. I imagine that such accross-the-board blocking will affect us all, but ultimately bring more peace, thus allowing everyone to focus on the continued development of a good encyclopedia. Best, -- Kukini 12:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Sig images are a discourtesy to our editors on slow connections (some people really do still use dialup) and on slow computers (a busy talk page could have hundreds of signatures on it; rendering all those little pics is hard work for some older machines.) I'd be pleased to see the back of them. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Block image use. Think of the dial up user. Computerjoe's talk 14:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I too would support the banning of the use of images in signatures, the pros far outweigh the cons on this one. While we are on the topic of signatures; I know it's more of a personal issue than a technical one, but the use of multiple colours in signatures can be extremely problematic for users like myself. I have achromatopsia, and therefore find many such signatures almost impossible to read. Similarly, linking to other pages through one's signature is deeply unhelpful. I know people may want to advertise such valuable projects as Esperanza, but doing it through one's signature is not the place to do it. The more I think about it the more I think that people should not be able to fiddle with their signature at all, the ability to do so is more trouble than it's worth. If people want to be "creative", the mainspace is the place to do it. Rje 15:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'd be inclined to go for a straightforward ban on image use: much simpler, and more to the point less likely to lead to misunderstandings and resentment, than saying "use discretion", but then getting into the realm of overruling the user. And there's often rumblings about overloading of the image server, here's a good place to start losing them. I concur with Rje on sig-links, and I'd go further: opinions on what projects are "valuable" clearly differs, and as such links have been used in the past for out-and-out campaigning for (or against) one cause or another, I'd rather not open the door to same by having (allegedly) benign links as precedent for worse. And can we please work into the guidance something to the general effect of "use sig-text that at least vaguely resembles your username"? Alai 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose any change to current signature policy. This is just spill over from a pair of user's grudge match. JohnnyBGood t c 19:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• It's actually not, JohnnyBGood, that's why I brought it up here. There have been numerous instances of intrusive signatures to the point where I felt it was becoming a problem. Misplaced Pages:Signature Poll was created recently I believe as a result of the increasingly intricate signatures. ~MDD4696 21:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Allow image use, the minor server load issues are not worth antagonizing good contributors over (happy Wikipedians write a better encyclopedia). Images are very small, and the typical sig flag images are most probably cached somewhere anyway. The developers would have prohibited images in sigs long ago if they were a big issue. Kusma (討論) 01:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • note that images make for much shorter wikicode than fancy font formatting, so from the point of view of reading the source, they are much preferable. Kusma (討論) 20:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
• Signatures are supposed to identify you. Period. I'm all for banning images and limiting sig size (to a low 2 digit number). I would also favor banning colour, font and most other gaudy games. I don't want to see this sort of silliness on pages or pick through it in edit windows. --Moby 09:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

  Ditto. -Quiddity 17:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'll support any policy that gets rid of this damnable clutter. I'd favor editors showing courtesy towards their peers, and voluntarily reducing their signatures, but that's apparently infringing on their non-existent right to free speech on a private server, so we'll have to whack them with instruction creep. Mackensen (talk) 03:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• No images in signatures, for all the reasons in the list above. -Pgan002

Character/Byte limit

I'm for a sig restriction of 200 characters. This would be best done by building it into MediaWiki. Long signatures make the editing view look cluttered, s well as taking up disk space. Computerjoe's talk 14:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good.--HereToHelp 16:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. The cluttered wikitext is very aggravating. -Quiddity 17:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. -Pgan002

Technical versus Policy

Another issue I just thought of: Which is more appropriate? A technical solution or policy? A technical solution would be the simplest to implement I believe, and we could make a note on WP:SIG that images were disabled by consensus. ~MDD4696 21:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the image issue has been discussed several times before. I think that this is in favor of a technical solution: despite previous consensus against images, people are still using them. ~MDD4696 21:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Cyde made the very valid point that it is still possible to have signatures with images even if it is disabled in the preferences. ~MDD4696 03:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll

Sign your name in the section indicating your position on images in signatures. Be sure to take a look at the above discussion if you haven't already, and add any additional comments there. This poll ends at 17:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC).

Images

Allow images in signatures

1. Kusma (討論) 17:26, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. --Wompa99 20:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
3. --NorkNork _fnord? 08:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
4. • The Giant Puffin • 13:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
5. -President GangstaEB-15:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
6. Conditional support: if they are small, load quickly and are otherwise non-disruptive.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
7. Conditional Support: as above. --DanDanRevolution 07:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
8. Barnaul 21:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
9. As long as they're small enough not to change the leading. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Forbid images in signatures

1. ~MDD4696 16:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. HereToHelp 16:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
3. Quiddity 17:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
4. Exploding Boy 18:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
5. Prevent rather than forbid. David Kernow 18:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
6. R. S. Shaw 19:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
7. Jeandré, 2006-05-20t22:15z
8. Keith 22:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
9. Dakpowers | Talk 23:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
10. Thunk 00:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
11. QuillOmega0 01:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
12. Pgan002
13. Danaman5 03:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
14. Makes discussions frustrating to read. T. J. Day 04:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
15. I find them distracting, and they are unnecessary, people can have themselves a bit of idenitity with coloured text or whatever – Gurch 10:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
16. Moby 13:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC) Forbid in code, not just policy.
17. → J@red 23:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
18. Finally. I'd be happy to remove my "juggling janitor" tagline if it turns out to be too long. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
19. Prevent, as this will bring more peace to the wiki than "forbidding" will bring. Kukini 00:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
20. As above. — Inky 00:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
21. Images in sigs are waste of bandwidth. Megapixie 01:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
22. Misplaced Pages is not MySpace. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 02:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
23. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
24. abakharev 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
25. Augustz 05:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC) I don't mind images etc on a user page, but when following discussions images are distracting in a sig, and often make the comments of those who use them stand out over others who do not.
26. Visviva 08:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC) A ridiculous waste of our limited resources.
27. As above -- Masterjamie 14:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
28. Joevano 15:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC) I generally find pics in signaures to be an ego thing, and are not really needed.
29. Petros471 15:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
30. Please! the wub "?!" 17:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
31. ChrisKennedy 20:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
32. Preventing it doesn't go far enough, as some people use JavaScript injection to make their own custom sigs (which could easily still have images in them). --Cyde↔Weys 20:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
33. Colors are enough. --A Sunshade Lust 21:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
34. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 00:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
35. BryanG 02:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Length

No changes regarding signature length

1. Existing policy is clear that editors with improper signatures can be required to change them (-Ril- arbitration). No change to policy is required. --Tony Sidaway 17:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. Ask editors with horrible signatures nicely to change them, don't outlaw the behavior (I believe most will see the light of reaosn if asked by different editors on different occasions). A length limit is also likely to cause problems with users with long usernames - they'd be barred form having a talk and contribs link. Kusma (討論) 17:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
3. As above. ~MDD4696 17:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
4. As per User:Tony Sidaway. One other thing: my signature, which currently consists of notion but my name and a link to my talk page, is 60 characters in Wikicode, and would be many more if my name was longer (to encode, the name is written out three time (one for the link to user page, another for the name, another for the link to talk page). I know a lot of people have the Esperanza "e" in their names, which takes up a good few charcters. Putting an arbitary limit on seems a little silly, as it is easy to have a non-ridiculous sig of length 150-200. Having no images seems more sensible, but does this need to be encoded into the software? Batmanand | Talk 21:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)...
5. See reason 1. Thunk 00:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
6. As per #1 + #2. → J@red  23:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
7. No change in policy (although possibly clarify guidelines, mindful of instruction creep of course). My sig is over 200 chars I think... and would be longer if my userid were longer. I do think it's confusing to have a sig that isn't your username and from which you can't clearly derive the username without editing the page. ++Lar: t/c 13:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
8. As per Tony Sideway -- Masterjamie 14:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
9. Per #1. Though I'm against images, colors and links are perfectly fine. DakPowers (Talk) 18:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
10. I have never seen a signature that would be 'too long'. #1 + #2 seem to work, why overbureaucratize Wiki with needless restrictions?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
11. As per Kusma. BryanG 02:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Restrict signature length

1. to a signature and optional talk page link. Exploding Boy 18:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. 4000 chars for a signature seems overly large. David Kernow 18:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
3. Jeandré, 2006-05-20t22:15z
4. to just a name (linking to the user's page) and a talk page link, labeled "(Talk)". -Pgan002
5. Danaman5 03:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
6. As per Exploding Boy. Implementation must be accommodating to people with long names. T. J. Day 04:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
7. Restrict it to, say, 1000 characters just to stop the absurdly long ones (such as that mentioned by David Kernow above) – Gurch 10:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
8. To around 1000 characters. Limiting people to just a link to their userpage and talk page is too restrictive - • The Giant Puffin • 13:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
9. Moby 13:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC) Restrict to <100. How long can a username be?
10. Finally. I'd be happy to remove my "juggling janitor" tagline if it turns out to be too long. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
11. Restrict, but to say 1000 characters. Kukini 00:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
12. As above. A limit would be useful, but limiting signatures to 200 characters seems like overkill. — Inky 00:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
13. limit somewhere between 500 and 1000 characters - anything you like within that. Megapixie 01:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
14. As recent incidents show, an unambiguous rule is preferable to a vague guideline that can be interpreted as not actually prohibiting anything. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 02:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
15. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
16. abakharev 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
17. Per Exploding Boy, restrict to username, talk link (and perhaps contribs link). There is absolutely no reason to sign with anything but your username; doing so creates unnecessary confusion, especially in those unforgivable cases where the sig and the username are entirely different. -- Visviva 09:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
18. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 00:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
19. Limit between 500 and 1000 characters. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Implementation

Implement as policy

1. Exploding Boy 18:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. You can always get around implementing it technically simply by copying over the code (or using JavaScript to inject it for you). If it's a policy it won't leave any loopholes. --Cyde↔Weys 20:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
3. Guidelines appear not to have worked. If the devs are willing to put up a technical solution, that'd be fine too. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Implement as guideline

1. Although I prefer simple sigs, it is unreasonable to force users not to edit as they please...which is why a guideline would be a good alternative.--Osbus 01:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
2. Making it a policy is too forceful. There are always exceptions to the rule, so this should just be a guideline to encourage people, not make them - • The Giant Puffin • 13:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
   • You guys realize that the signature guideline already is not to have extremely long signatures with images, right? 66.66.89.238 21:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
     • Yes, I dont want it changed - • The Giant Puffin • 13:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
3. It already is a guideline, and it's not too hard to enforce; I'm not seeing a problem. → J@red  23:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

   But I do question how you "enforce" a guideline. The situation with nathanrdotcom (talk · contribs) suggests to me that there needs to be something beyond a guideline, either a policy or technical restriction, but that's just my opinion. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

4. abakharev 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
5. Prefer guideline. not opposed to a technical limit if it is really large... 2000 bytes of text perhaps? ++Lar: t/c 14:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Implement technically

1. ~MDD4696 16:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. HereToHelp 16:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
3. Quiddity 17:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
4. Prevent images and lower max signature chars. David Kernow 18:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
5. Jeandré, 2006-05-20t22:15z
6. A policy could be edited by someone who opposes it on the fly. Thunk 01:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
7. At least implement a length limit. I suggest also make signatures immutable, just the name linking to the user page and a "(Talk)" link. -Pgan002
8. Danaman5 03:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
9. Assuming it can be done technically, this is probably the best way. I don't agree with taking out the ability to customize, just disabling images and capping the length – Gurch 10:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
10. Moby 13:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC) per Lessig.
11. Finally. I'd be happy to remove my "juggling janitor" tagline if it turns out to be too long. JesseW, the juggling janitor 00:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
12. I believe it should be either prevented or allowed. Thus stand for the technical implementation. Kukini 00:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
13. Any other way would just cause endless fighting. Megapixie 01:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
14. Misplaced Pages is not MySpace. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 02:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
15. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
16. Augustz 06:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Why create more work / stress. Implement technically by all means
17. Petros471 15:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
18. I'm surprised it has never been done before. the wub "?!" 17:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
19. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 00:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
20. Prevents continuous arguing over sigs. BryanG 02:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

An addition on the possible consequences of persistent refusal to deal reasonably with complaints

I have added the following:

Persistent refusal to react in a reasonable way to complaints about your signature may result in a brief block, though this is controversial.

I hope that this is acceptable as a reasonable description of the possible consequences of reacting in a disruptive manner to reasonable complaints about a particularly obnoxious signature. --Tony Sidaway 15:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Removal of "superscript" in examples

Exploding Boy has deleted in the examples section the usage of superscript "<sup>" for signatures, which I believe to be inappropriately pre-emptive. This appears to be based on his expressed view that he would "add a ban on super- and sub-script", stated above. As the issue of such usage has not been discussed-- and in fact, may be one of the most widely used customisations for signatures-- I would suggest this has no consensus for removal.—Leflyman 18:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

They're only examples. Removing the superscript doesn't remove the ability to use superscript in signatures, and doesn't create a policy. As you said, these are examples. Why was there superscript in them in the first place? Exploding Boy 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Exactly because they are examples of "Customizing your signature", which, when removed, make the examples seem kind of pointless. As I noted, superscript is likely the most used customisation; removing it from the example is tantamount to "hiding" it for new users. If you believe that superscripting should be discouraged, propose a statement to that effect, but don't pre-emptively remove it from the example, please.—Leflyman 19:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not to be rude, but nonsense. The "examples" still have plenty of customization, and all they are is examples. They're not meant to be a template. By your rationale we should include all the bells and whistles various people use in their signatures in the example. If users are that interested in customizing their signature, they'll figure out the possibilities on their own. Exploding Boy 03:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, that's a strawman argument. I'll ask again: please revert your change to the examples, as you had no consensual basis for the deletion, other than your personal preference for not having superscript in signatures. —Leflyman 04:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not a strawman argument (but this is rapidly becoming a road to nowhere). Again, the purpose of the example is to show users some of what's possible in signature customization not all. Removing the superscript (only!) does not prevent any user from using superscript. It doesn't change the policy. It really doesn't change anything. And so far, only you seem to have a problem with it (and I note you use superscript in your signature). Exploding Boy 04:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I too think the examples should not include superscripts and subscripts. In this way users are at least encouraged to have simple signatures, which are easy to follow. What's more, the default signature should be good, so that most users do not feel a need to customize it. -Pgan002 00:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of separate reverts by User:Tony Sidaway of two edits by User:JohnnyBGood

JohnnyBGood (talk · contribs) made two edits on this guideline today so far.

In his first, he removed the edit which I described here. I summarily reverted this undiscussed removal because there had been no objections on this talk page. My summary was "Restore the description. It's accurate as far as I'm aware, and no objection has been raised on talk." .

In his second, he made the following text edit.

Change:

A distracting, confusing or otherwise unsuitable signature affects other users, and a user with an unsuitable signature may be required to change it (See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-). Persistent refusal to react in a reasonable way to complaints about your signature may result in a brief block, though this is controversial.

to:

A distracting, confusing or otherwise unsuitable signature affects other users, and a user with an unsuitable signature may be required to change it (See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-). Persistent refusal to react in a reasonable way to complaints about your signature may result in a brief block if your signature is infact disruptive (note: just having an image in your signature is not disruption), though this is controversial and can be disputed if you are blocked.

The added words are highlighted in bold.

I think this adds words to the quite pithy description without adding meaning. Unreasonable behavior is always blockable, and a controversial block is de fact disputable.

Accordingly I shall take the unusual step of making a second revert today. --Tony Sidaway 22:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I would strongly object to any addition that blocks may be used for inappropiate signatures. Blocks for disruption are already listed in WP:BP, there is no need to add "disruption of this guideline". Blocks for disruption, while contraversial, are an accepted policy, blocks for not following a guideline, however, are not. Justifing a block on inappropiate signature (when even the ArbCom regarded it as "trivial") is excessive. Also, Arbcom did not ban -Ril- for his inappropiate signature, so there is no precedent for an admin doing so. Accordingly, I will now remove the mention of potential blocking, as this is more than covered in the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy, which is also the best place to discuss any suggested changes to that policy. Regards, MartinRe 23:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with MartinRe's position on this. JohnnyBGood t c 00:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The wording is as follows: Persistent refusal to react in a reasonable way to complaints about your signature may result in a brief block, though this is controversial.

The reason I inserted this is because this is in fact the state of affairs at present. Individual dissenting opinions notwithstandings, if you don't react reasonably to a request to change a grossly inappropriate signature, an administrator may block you. No change to policy is required; it's only a clarification of the potential consequences of breaching this guideline. Nevertheless it is not strictly necessary to note it here; the block log, dialog on WP:AN and User talk:Tony Sidaway and User talk:Nathanrdotcom and the RfC Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tony Sidaway 3 are ample. --Tony Sidaway 13:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

As gently as possible, this looks oddly like a retcon. We've never felt it required to block for a sig before, and putting it in now is, um, suboptimal. Some "individual dissenting opinions" also feel that the block in question was wildly out of line, so...
brenneman 14:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, this phenomena of sigs so long that it becomes difficult to comment around them is a recent development. When a signature takes up four lines in the edit window that's beyond sub-optimal–it's discourteous. Mackensen (talk) 02:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

That's simply not true. There have been long (and over long) sigs ever since we were carving on wikirocks. Multiple images, rainbow colours, multiple font shifts, lengthy messages... She who shall remain nameless had a rotating anagram in her sig, for goodness sake. The only think "new" is blocking people without warning for their sigs. - brenneman 02:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if that's the case then I honestly don't remember it being that way back then (and by back then I mean 2003 and 2004). Your signature takes up three lines in my edit window. This is disconcerting. Others take up four or five. I've been having trouble following discussions. The problem, for me, isn't what shows up on the page; it's the massive amount of code in the edit window. Again, I call it a professional courtesy. Mackensen (talk) 02:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a different point, and one that I won't disagree with. No one had ever complained about my signature before, by the way. I've noticed that people tend to move towards plainer appearing sigs as they mature, but as you've pointed out mine is lengthy code for a plain affect. For me personally, if there was some a strong guideline or policy about sigs I'd be unfazed by complying, and I'd certainly consider changing mine if people complained. (Well, maybe if one more person complained?) My only objection was to the arbitrary blocking for a nebulous guideline followed by a change to policy (and back to guideline?) unsupported by consensus. - brenneman 03:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, looking above, I suspect a change may be in the offing... Mackensen (talk) 12:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm rather concerned that an admin is changing guidelines into policies on such a controversial issue without consensus. Tony, having a long sig may NOT result in a block, that's exactly why your block of nathan was so controversial. You have acted without consensus before, you are molding Misplaced Pages into what you would like it to be, just because you don't like something is not a reason for you to act unilaterally in changing it. You have acted unilaterally before, and the only comment I got from you was "I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages". (I admit I was tired at the time, but you still deleted all the templates without any consensus and no comment except that) Nathan's three small images totalling less then 1.4 kb are nothing, it took less then a second to load even when I used to be on dial-up and I don't see how having images in your sig prevents any-one from reading discussions, source loads first, then displays, then the images are loaded. It is perfectly possible to read the discussion while the sigs haven't loaded yet. The arbcom ruling on Ril's sig is irrelevant, it deals with sigs that confuse users as to your user-name, not images in sigs. PS: And hear hear to this. +Hexagon1 (talk) 13:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Hexagon says "Tony, having a long sig may NOT result in a block, that's exactly why your block of nathan was so controversial." That's a non sequitur. Obviously having a long signature can result in a block. That the block may be controversial is another matter. The statement "you have acted without consensus before" is of course completely meaningless. It is true of absolutely every single editor on Misplaced Pages who has made more than a couple of edits.

Signatures that impede the functioning of Misplaced Pages can, and should, be treated like any other form of disruption. You may not want to put this into this document (it's just a guideline) but the functioning policy here is the Blocking policy which is clear on the blockable nature of disruptive activities. --Tony Sidaway 17:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

If you think that -Ril- is irrelevant, this can only mean that you have not actually read and understood the -Ril- arbitration.

* Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/-Ril-#Improper_usernames_and_signatures

Principle 4: "Users with improper usernames or signatures may be required to change them."

The principle says nothing about the specifics of why the username or signature may be considered improper. A signature that distracts readers or makes talk pages difficult to edit is of course improper. Its purpose must be solely to identify the user; other uses that hinder the operation of the wiki are disruptive, and may sometimes be blockable, --Tony Sidaway 17:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Colours in signatures (I refer to the "hear hear" you mention) do cause problems for some users. See above. Exploding Boy 16:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This is absolutely true. As a sufferer from color blindness I can say that unnecessary use of color in signatures makes pages very difficult to read. --Tony Sidaway 17:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

A bit bemused

I'm not quite sure what to think of this proposal. Here's the source to my sig:

'''<font color="green">]</font><font color="blue">]</font>''']: ]/]

I have all that stuff in there for what I thought were good reasons, and it displays as "++Lar: t/c" which is pretty small. But if I understand some proposals correctly, it's too big by some of their standards... If it's clutter of talk pages that is the problem, then perhaps templatized sigs ({{User:Lar/Sig}} or the like) are the way to go, they'd be smaller. But IIRC that was shot down a while back as not really a good use of resources. I'd hate to see everyone's sig get restricted to nothing. Despite using popups I find it very useful to have a direct link to someone's talk. ++Lar: t/c 21:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but is it necessary to link to your Esperanza page and your Emailuser link as well? If we could get an actual tech rundown on the resources consumed by templates they may not be a bad idea. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 21:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Esperanzans are requested (it's not a requirement) to make a letter or character green and link to Esperanza. If the guideline here gets put in place suggesting sigs be shorter I am sure that Esperanza will change that guideline. So that's that one. As for email, I think it's handy. I wish everyone had it in their sig. I get a fair bit of email myself. My point here is that if we aren't to use templates (which I support) then this amount of characters is not at all unreasonable, yet some proposals seem to be suggesting it is. As a note (not a cricitism or justification!) ... your sig has contributions and talk too, just not email or Esperanza... perhaps yours might be considered too long by some too, which is even more bemusing. ++Lar: t/c 22:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but my sig is only like half a line, and yours is more than one. — Phil Welch (t) (c) 01:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Esperanza does that, but perhaps they could be told to stop. I don't know how helpful it is to have 20,000 links to Esperanza floating around out talk pages. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the suggested link for the Esperanza "green E" is now to a user page such as can be seen in my (and Lar's) signature. This helps reduce the amount of users that accidently send messages to Misplaced Pages talk:Esperanza. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 05:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, that makes it even more pointless...why not just put a link to Esperanza on your user page? Christopher Parham (talk) 06:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Using templates is not a good idea for signatures unless you subst it, defeating the purpose of using one. When someone is reading an archived discussion, they want to see exactly was was written. That is the point of the archive--it is an unchanging historical record. If you ever change the template at a later time, the archived discussion no longer represents exactly what was written. And Lar, I find your signature perfectly reasonable. ~MDD4696 23:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What I mean by exactly would be the content... adding {{unsigned}} or ordering sections chronologically (as they should have been) I think would be ok.... ~MDD4696 23:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Lar's signature is that bad, but he really doesn't need emailuser and Esperanza in there. Moreover, the Esperanza recommendation seem to me to be encouraging a kind of linkspam--clearly the sole purpose is to advertise the existence of a subgroup or clique within Misplaced Pages--a highly unwikipedian activity. It's not that serious, but it's pretty hard to justify lengthening one's sig especially for a non-wikipedian purpose. Signatures already contain a link to the userpage; they should not in themselves perform the same functions as userpages. A talk link is polite. Beyond that I don't see that anything else is justifiable; when weighed against the added cruft (used in its true meaning) on talk pages. --Tony Sidaway 17:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a sidenote: as far as I know, Esperanza does not require nor even request a link, that would be a ridiculous thing to ask or (even worse) demand. --JoanneB 14:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

JoanneB: Apologies if I've misstated anything, and I certainly agree it's not (and shouldn't be) a requirement to link an E anywhere. But this page: Misplaced Pages:Esperanza/So_you've_joined_Esperanza...... does, at least to me, read like a request that members do so. That page is in E-project space, and so those just joining could well take what is written there as at least common practice. I may have misinterpreted things but that's how I took it when I joined. And I think it's a good practice. While it is true that the user page could carry the inf, seeing a green E in an otherwise mono sig is a suggestion that hey, this user ought to be expected to be a bit more civil than the norm, and might be able to help you out if you ask. That's not just advertising the org, it's making others aware that you're there to help. Which is a good thing, IMHO. ++Lar: t/c 14:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have tweaked said page to make it more clear that the green e is not compulsory (I have never had a link in my sig, and I joined Esperanza soon after it started). I didn't think there was a page telling new members to do it, I figured it was just spreading via imitation. the wub "?!" 17:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't know that page existed (I should have, I know). I understand how that led people to believe they should do it, and even with the current wording I'm not happy with that template (thanks though, The wub!), personally. But that's an issue outside of the scope of this page. --JoanneB 18:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. It does seem to be a fairly common habit in Esperanzans. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but Esperanzans should perhaps reflect on whether having a signature larger than is necessary is really that useful to the project. Lately when editing long and complex debates,and bulleted "votes" in particular , I've found it very difficult indeed to find the comment I wanted to reply to, because the many signatures were as large as and usually much larger than the comments. --Tony Sidaway 18:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit that I find this complaint fairly mystifying, despite having heard it from three or four individuals now. I have no problem with this: Code is clearly code, set off by various {{/<-es, and simply using "preview" clears up any confusion that I have. The fact that signatures are at the end of a comment in almost every case, and comments are seperated by delimiters like : and * in almost every case... This seems more like flavour-of-the-week complaint, especially in light of the non growth of sigs.
brenneman 11:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Well we can easily show that signatures have grown. Compare Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Bishonen with Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/King of Hearts. Take both into edit mode and notice the startling contrast. Just one year ago nearly all signatures were of the simple type. Now many signatures are multi-line monstrosities. This does make it very difficult to locate comments in edit mode, because much, sometimes most of the text, is often HTML gibberish belonging to various signatures.

Having said that, I don't think we want to make hard limits or say people can't have images in signatures or anything, as long as the signatures aren't unsuitable. But if (as recently) someone has a 700 character signature, that is equivalent to about 100 words--rather longer than this paragraph! The signal-to-noise ratio of the page in edit mode falls and it becomes much harder for people to participate in the debate. At this point it's certainly reasonable to require the editor to do something about the noise.--Tony Sidaway 00:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Large signatures and editing

I'm not trying to minimise the complaints that a few people are making, but "consensus" shouldn't have quite the volume element that we're seeing here. The fact is that people are using longer sigs, according to you and the sample I took from last year. (See charrt below.) Lots of them, apparently. And these people are taking part in discussions, leaving their longer sigs all over the place... and until the last eight days, we've heard very little about it. This practice had wide tacit approval. My sig is three lines long now, and it was longer before and I never heard one complaint until very recently. This would seem to indicate that the vast, preponderous majority of people just don't care very much about the length of signatures. And I still do not understand how it's a real problem to get the "signal from the noise." Are you just not using preview when you edit a discussion? - brenneman 02:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not overconcerned about signatures even as large as yours, but they do degrade the wiki. Use of preview does not help to locate a comment in an edit box. If you look above on this talk page, you will see strong evidence of quite a lot of concern about images in signatures and overlong signatures. "Nobody ever mentioned it to me" isn't a good rebuttal to such strong evidence of concern, and such clearly stated problems. As an example of the latter, I present a fairly recent Misplaced Pages:Protected page revision . This is an excerpt, giving you an idea of its appearance in a browser edit box:

*{{article|Tourism in Croatia}}. Edit warring. ''']'''^]|]|]</font> 20:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

*{{article|Falun Gong}}. Edit warring. ''']'''^]|]|]</font> 14:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

*{{article|Dalmatia}}. People "taking turns" reverting each other a few times for days back. ''']'''^]|]|]</font> 14:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You will notice how difficult it is to located the text amid the signatures. The signature length in this case is about 270 characters. --Tony Sidaway 06:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Tourism in Croatia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Edit warring. Voice-of-All 20:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
• Falun Gong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Edit warring. Voice-of-All 14:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
• Dalmatia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). People "taking turns" reverting each other a few times for days back. Voice-of-All 14:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's what that really looks like. Broken record: Use preview. I do not have the SLIGHTEST problem with finding the comments in this. And silence gives consent: The fact that this was never an issue, that not only was it never mentioned to me but that I struggle to recall it being mentioned to anyone ever is in fact a compelling rebuttal. - brenneman 08:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you do seem to be repeating again and again that "this is what this really looks like. Well no, that isn't what it looks like when you're in the edit box trying to find the location in the mass of gibberish that corresponds to a piece of text.

Are you serious in your contention that "silence gives consent"? The mind boggles! --Tony Sidaway 11:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Mackensen/Brenneman meta-discussion

Aaron, forgive, but are you capable of assuming that a user has a valid complaint when don't happen to agree with it? I hate pulling rank, but I've been here three years, and I can tell you that sigs have gotten considerably larger, and with far more html and wiki markup than they ever had before. If this trend continues, I'm going to have real difficulty parsing conversations in the edit window, and I'm not the only one. "Flavour-of-the-week"? Do you even understand why this is inappropriate? Mackensen (talk) 12:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to answer that as honestly and completely as as possible.

• One user states their view on long/complex sigs. I state mine. I don't say "you're wrong" although I suppose "I'm mystify" can be seen as having said so. I'm unlcear on why stating my case is wrong, but saying that I'm being "rude" in having a long signature is not?
• Aye, I can certainly defer to your tenure, and do understand that you're talking about a different time-scale than I am. I'll have a sniff and take some samples, so we can talk about facts rather than impressions.
• With regard to "flavour-of-the-week"... no, I'm afraid I don't understand the problem with it. From my (potentially skewed) perception, this has gone from a non-issue to a giant, blockable-for-disruption problem with very little in between. I've provided a little table to illustrate. Look at the number of posts to this page over the last four years. I know that's a rough measure, but it supports my feeling that this has come up suddenly. I'd note that the spike here co-incided with "04:20, 15 May 2006 Tony Sidaway blocked "Nathanrdotcom (contribs)" with an expiry time of 12 hours (Persistently flaunting a stupidly large signature with multiple image inclusions)".
• I know that last comment feeds into the "Aaron has a problem with Tony" paradigm, but it is a striking thing.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me,

brenneman 13:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Table of posts to this page per day

What's the point? Can we get rid of this please? It really doesn't seem to be relevant to the discussions at hand. --Cyde↔Weys 17:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see it's referenced in one of Brenneman's posts above. Still, is this necessary? So a lot of discussion started recently ... I bet lots of talk pages have similar patterns, as various events ebb and flow. Can we move this off onto a subpage or something? --Cyde↔Weys 17:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you didn't see the point, I see why it's there. If it is bugging you and you want to make it a subpage? Have at it... it's a wiki. I think it makes a valid point, that this seems to have all of a sudden come up. That's not a bad thing, it just is. The way things are done here is a bit inside out from other communities that deliberate first and then make rules and then act on them, we act, then see what we did, then make guidelines to capture the defacto. That said I strenuously oppose censuring people for sigs unless we start with ones that use garish colors or obnoxious nonstandard cursors when displayed, rather than starting with the size of the sig when it's in edit text. ++Lar: t/c 18:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I find it almost unreadable with the "small" tags, and the "br" tags make it just along list. Perhaps someone could produce a chart of some sort. I've still no idea what it's supposed to mean. --Tony Sidaway 00:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Bah. I've made it into an image, but whatever happened to {{sofixit}}? Regardless, unless we think that there is some other venue that this was being discussed on, there doesn't appear to have been much chatter about sigs until right around the time we saw a block for having a long one. The smaller chart is the mean signature link on AfD for a year. Note that there is a fairly large increase, aroung 75%, with no increase in traffic on this page at all. - brenneman 02:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the block has stimulated discussion, much of it in favor of hard limits on signatures (worth discussing, though I oppose them as unnecessary and unpracticable). This is what discussion pages are for, so I don't find it surprising and I don't still can't work out why this needs to be recorded in a chart. --Tony Sidaway 03:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've also done a quick grab from six recent AfDs to see if the trend has continued. The median from that sample was only 65. However, looking at the distribution (see below) this doesn't mean that it's actually gone down. It just means that I didn't grab one of the super-massive sigs that are around. Looking over the data from last years afd and the sample that I took below, I'd say the median length of signtures hasn't changed much (about 25%), but that there has been an increase in the number of "top end" signatures. Although we had 700+ signatures around a year ago, it's actually the increase in the 150-300 range that appears to be making a differance. *cough* Esperanza *cough* It's the "drunk at the footy" effect really: A few really large signatures combined with a slight increase in the medium large signatures appears to be creating an impression that an overall trend that is much stronger than it actually is. - brenneman 02:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you gathered and charted the mean signature length on AfDs??? that's so incredibly geeky... way cool! I think the root question here is, what does this mean other than demonstrating how things seem to work here. Problems wax, get dealt with or not, and sometimes wane. While they're waxing is when actions outside policy and the backlash/acceptance of them seem to decide or codify what eventual policy is. I'm just starting to get this so sorry if I'm repeating the obvious to everyone else. I still think, though, that actions outside of policy have to be civil and can't go too far outside of consensus at the time, all at once, or things go whacked. ++Lar: t/c 03:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

10	12,12,14,14
15	15,17,17,18
20	22
25	26,26,26,26,26,28,28
30	30,30,32
35	35,38,41,44,47
50	56,68,69,72,93
100	131,156,180
200	222,256
300	355

Even having lots of 150-300 character signatures has severely degraded our discussion environment. 150 characters is the equivalent of over 20 words, 300 is around 40 words, and so on. If a signature is as long as this comment, then it makes discussion much more difficult. It isn't just an impression of problems. It is actively more difficult to edit discussions than it was even a few months ago.

By the way, Who had a 700+ character signature one year ago? --Tony Sidaway 03:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of two edits by User:Tony Sidaway

I have made two removals of text which don't seem to belong in a guideline.

There have been some calls for banning them entirely; some people have objected to such a ban, arguing it would stifle creativity.

From the above, I have removed the bolded section. To talk of "stifling creativity" in a signature on a discussion forum is simply fatuous. There are reasonable objections to banning images from signatures, but "stifling creativity" isn't one of them.

It is also possible to be playful with the signature, for example by including ornamental Unicode characters (☻♂♖♥★, etc.) and using CSS styles to format it.

I have removed all of the above since "playfulness" with signatures in shared discussion spaces really isn't something to be encouraged. Let's keep them readable and simple. --Tony Sidaway 02:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• I've reverted both of those changes. The first is simply reporting of the state of play: Some people have called for stricter guidelines, some have objected. The second, again, is a simple statement of fact: It is possible to be playful. The wide use of these forms indicates that it's not universally considered "fatuous."
• We're attracting a small crowd for such a large change. The number of people impacted by any strengthening of this guideline would be massive. It should go on WP:CENT.

brenneman 03:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

None of the above implies any material change in the guidelines, much less a "large" one. The first change is removing a silly objection and the second is removing a suggestion that doesn't really belong in a guideline in the first place. --Tony Sidaway 03:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

New section "Internal links"

I've given this a start. Just a bit of commonsense, really. The key is parsimony.

It is considered polite to include a link to your talk page for the use of people who want to discuss something with you person-to-person. Outside that, it is probably wise to be parsimonious with internal links. If you find a particular Misplaced Pages page useful, put a link into your browser bookmarks or favorites list, not your signature.

--Tony Sidaway 03:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

A quick browse of any widely used page (WP:AN or WP:PUMP for instance) will show that this bit of "commonsense" is not that common. Links to contributions and e-mails are frequent, and Esperanza is also a sprinkled liberally around. At least one arbitrator has an internal link to contributions in their sig: Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) Again, I'd much rather see a wider net cast on this discussion.
brenneman 07:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

When commonsense isn't much in evidence, it is necessary to state it explicitly. This is why we have guidelines. --Tony Sidaway 11:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Harmonious editing

I'm deeply dissapointed by the entire way that this is being handled. Do we work in a co-operative, consensual environment here or not? Because what I'm seeing is full Tony power, stuff everyone else. There appears to be a fundamental misunderstadning of the way that wikipedia works here. When you make a change, you don't "own" that change, and "announcing" that change doesn't mean that it can't be reverted. It doesn't mean that that change has to remain in place until you're convinced otherwise. If someone reverts a change and explains why on talk, reverting back is bad form.
brenneman 04:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You're somewhat confused as to what happened here. I performed an edit and then wrote it up. You then blindly reverted it claiming that it hadn't been discussed. I later reverted the asking you to examine the talk page to see that I had indeed discussed it. You then proceeded to the talk page and wrote up your own earlier revert. No ownership is implied, but I do warn you not to blindly revert edits by other editors, asking them to discuss them on the talk page without first checking to see if they have done just that. If you continue to do so you will probably often find that you have ignored significant explanation and supporting arguments for an edit. --Tony Sidaway 06:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Tony, please do try and understand something: What contitutes "significant explanation and supporting arguments" to you may not be, in fact, enough. There is room for others to disagree. There is a differance between discussing something and telling us what you've done. You and I have had this problem many, many times. When we do not agree, you seem to feel as if once you "explain" than the discussion is over. I looked at your explanation on the talk page and I do not agree. I don't know how I can make that any more clear. Just because you want the page to look a certain way, it doesn't have to look that way. When someone asks you to discuss a change, actually wait for some back and forth to occur before sledgehammering your view onto the main page. I'd encourage you to read Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and Misplaced Pages:Harmonious editing club. (Although I note you've once been removed from that list.) It might also be a good idea for you to review Misplaced Pages:Edit war and consider further how they begin. - brenneman 06:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course I agree with all of the above, except the lamentably large section where you misrepresent the fact and launch into your trademark personal attack. As I said, I reverted your blind revert, which had clearly been made in ignorance of the existence of a discussion on the matter on this talk page. I am pleased that you finally got around to reading my comment and adding your own. Feel free to re-revert. --Tony Sidaway 11:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Edit by User:Tony Sidaway on signature policy

The opening of things to avoid now reads as follows:

A distracting, confusing or otherwise unsuitable signature affects other users, and users with improper signatures may be required to change them (See -Ril- arbitration).

The words "users with improper signatures may be required to change them" are taken directly from the principle adopted 5-0 by the Arbitration Commitee in the -Ril- arbitration, which is cited with an appropriate link.

Although this is only a guideline, not a policy document, it is probably a good idea to reflect policy as accurately as possible. --Tony Sidaway 05:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'd again restate my objections to the pattern of editing seen here. Tony's "compromise" edit only served to remove something that had already been removed twice before: , .
• The Ril case is very thin gruel indeed. We may begin by looking at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy/Past decisions where it says "Note that the Arbitration Committee is not bound by precedent." Even in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/-Ril-/Workshop Fred Bauder says of the signature issue "Being forced to deal with a triviality of this nature is ridiculous."

brenneman 07:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You have misread Fred's comment. -Ril- was refusing to change his signature. Fred proposed (in workshop) the remedy "-Ril- (talk · contribs) shall use his own user name as his signature" and accompanied this proposal with a comment on -Ril-'s intransigence in insisting on using an unsuitable signature: "Being forced to deal with a triviality of this nature is ridiculous. Interaction on Misplaced Pages requires easy identification of which user you are dealing with and easy means of communicating with them." . It was not the triviality of the order, but the petty quibbling of the editor being thus ordered.

Of course you're right that the Committee isn't bound by precedent, but you also misinterpret the nature of their principles. They are interpretations of existing Misplaced Pages policy, and often comprise the only written form of pre-existing Misplaced Pages policy. That editors can be required to curb excessive behavior in the interests of the community follows from the nature of Misplaced Pages. The cited example illustrated how this applies to signatures. --Tony Sidaway 11:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Casting a wider net and the wiki way

As this is starting to be a two-man show, I'm taking this page off my watch list. I have placed notes at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Signature_limitations, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Policies and Wikipedia_talk:Esperanza#Signature_limitations asking for more input. However, I'd like to make a few final comments and observations before exiting stage left.

Misplaced Pages is composed of a vast multitude of editors, with a diverse range of skills, interests, and opinions. Their level of contribution varies as well, some creating 200+ articles about notable historical figures, some whose largest contribution is Groucho glasses. We are intended however, to have some level of mutual respect for everyone, to be civil and courteous. This means attempting, as much as possible, to acknowledge that there exists a plurality of valid opinons, and to attempt to work towards building a consensus that encompases them.

I feel like that principle has been badly violated here. A single incident on the 15th, followed by heavy editing with very little attempt to draw in more contributors. Callous rejection of divergent opinions, and nascent edit warring. This isn't how things are meant to work. Willingness to revert heavily, a thick skin, and copious time should not be the determinators of outcomes.

brenneman 08:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

My views:

• Images - bad, even if there isn't a server load issue (WP:AUM anyone?). IF someone is loading say AN/I (which is already over 256KB) they shouldn't need to download a bunch of 2KB or bigger images too. Thankfully, images are not common. Small SVGs I'm not sure about.
• Templates - Mostly the same. OK if substed or if the sig page is protected and almost never edited, but still should be generally avoided.
  • Parser functions - Only if they are properly substed and are not complicated. User:Kotepho/sand2&action=edit is excessive (the only example I've run into). If you want to do something that fancy, use javascript.
• Confusing
  • Name is not the same as username - OK within reason. brenneman => User:Aaron Brenneman for example.

    Sue Anne => User:Sreed1234 is bad as Sue Anne could be many different people and there is not an obvious relationship. We have WP:CHU might as well use it even if I don't like it as it is less confusing.

    Transliteration is so-so; I know what ···日本穣 is, but others don't. If you do it at least have a nickname in latin alphabet in there.

  • Just plain weird things (¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ or ~~~~) - Distinctive enough and not easily confused with another user's name. I don't really have a problem with them.
• Length - Longer than 200-250 characters is excessive (~ 2 lines in my edit window). It does make replying in discussions hard. How does preview help me find a specific comment to reply to in a threaded discussion? I end up doing s/^(:*)\*(?=\*)/\1:/g and adding newlines just so it is managable is extreme cases.
• Links - If I want to see your contribs, talk page, email, etc. I know how to find it, but they aren't terribly disturbing. Linking to your RFA, a proposal, an RFC, etc. should be frowned upon. External links is a flat out no.
• Misc elements - font, colour, size, unicode glyphs, sup, sub, whatever are fine. Some people have an issue with sup and sub apparently, but I haven't seen it--anyone have a screenshot? I don't like people using cursor: but it isn't so much of an issue to require guidelines over.

Ideally, signatures would not be stored in the wikitext and you could have the timestamps in whatever style/timezone you want and the option to turn off custom signatures down to just ] ~~~~~ or ] ~~~~~. It would solve a great deal of the issues with signatures, but I don't think it is going to happen any time soon. Kotepho 10:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC) (I don't mean to be picking on anyone's sigs with my examples. they are just the first that come to mind.) Kotepho 10:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not personally in favor of hard limits (though a lot of editors do seem to be in favor--see above). The last thing I want to see is administrators forcing people with 300 character signatures to change them, or to remove reasonably small images from signatures.

In especially egregious cases, however, administrators have always had the ability to bring a recalcitrant editor to heel. A 700-character signature is the equivalent of 100 words, and substantially longer than this entire edit including the signature and timestamp. That is well into "excessive" territory by any standard. --Tony Sidaway 11:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)