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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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faq page Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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Obama II or Jr.?

The article notes Obama as Barack Hussein Obama II. I would think it would be Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Can I have an opinion on this? Mfribbs (talk) 23:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

For whatever reason, Barack Hussein Obama, II is what his parents named him, according to his birth certificate. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

No 'criticism' section?

No shady land deals? No drug use? No terrorist pals? No gaffs? Nothing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.27.147 (talk) 06:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Too bad that you can't read. Move on please. (And we don't do "criticism" sections -would you want to see a "praise" section? Please see the FAQs.) Tvoz/talk 09:00, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

we're not putting in any of that negative stuff. if it appears, we'll just delete it. go back to listening to rush limbaugh. you'll get plenty of such material there. cheers. Cramyourspam (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Criticism sections are usually avoided since they have a tendency to become POV magnets.--64.229.164.74 (talk) 01:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

That is right about POV magnets - and it is not that we don't put in negative material, it is that we don't set up a separate section for it. If it is notable for the subject's bio, we incorporate it into the appropriate part of the text or footnotes. Or it might go into a sub-article if it is more notable for that - like, say, Presidency of Barack Obama. But my point was also that some of the material the OP listed is in fact already clearly in this article, so instead of the snarky note, my suggestion is a more careful reading of the article. Tvoz/talk 17:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

actually we do do criticism sections see Misplaced Pages:Criticism as well including any prominent controversies in the lede Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section. Several RS have mentioned controversies involving Obama such as droning US citizens, etc. Darkstar1st (talk) 12:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

You missed a clearly worded bolded statement on that page that states Avoid sections and articles focusing on criticisms or controversies. You may want to take a closer look.--64.229.164.74 (talk) 00:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Calling into question the neutrality of this article.

I have read a few of the pages on current politicians here, and all of them include a section of questionable actions, criticism, and other information not on the positive side. I noticed more on the Republican pages than Independent or Democrat. Misplaced Pages has been very good at keeping things neutral, but this page is not neutral bias. From what I read I am under the impression that someone is actively editing this page on a near daily basis, removing items that cast any shadow of controversy on him.

I must call the neutrality of this article into question. There is no mention of his questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court, what SS numbers are assigned, names he has used in the past, nor his controversial terms in the Illinois legislature or at the federal level.

The validity of the controversy, whether factual or not should be included here for a non-biased and neutral article. As in the old saying "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" are needed for a neutral bias. This article reads like a puff news item, not up to the standards of Misplaced Pages. Milspecsim (talk) 01:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware Misplaced Pages was a gossip blog. We report on facts, not fiction.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:00, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

We don't include nonsense such as his political opponents' claims about "his questioned birth status" just to create balance. Don't stress. He can't stand again. If I was you I'd put effort into finding a great Republican candidate for next time around, rather than tilting at windmills here. HiLo48 (talk) 03:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• "03:31, 6 February 2013 User account Milspecsim (talk | contribs) was created". Yea. If this isn't yet another BryanFromPalatine or Gaydenver sock, I'll eat my hat. Tarc (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Notice how quickly and desperately the effort comes, to delegitimize anyone who accurately identifies the powerful pro-Obama bias in this article. Compare this article, and the amount of criticism from notable, reliable sources across the political spectrum that's being carefully excluded, with such articles as George W. Bush and Tony Blair. And go ahead and bite that newbie again, Tarc. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed nothing except valid criticism of the now completely discredited claims that the wasn't born in the US, plus some comments suggesting that those peddling such garbage take their energies elsewhere. Perhaps Bush's and Blair's article have more criticism because they deserve it for lying about WMDs and the like. And I don't care how long a person writing garbage has been here, or not. It's still garbage. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Fringe topics often have separate spinoff articles: To avoid wp:UNDUE weight in the "smaller" main article, then rare or fringe topics are covered in spinoff articles, with little or no mention in the main article. In that manner, popular myths or imagined scandals can be explained, but have almost no coverage within a main article. For example, with article "Moon" there is a spinoff article as "Moon is made of green cheese" to adequately explain that topic, without wp:Grandstanding of the cheese-Moon concept in the main article. Otherwise, an article would become excessively cluttered with "101 disproven myths about topic". Does that make more sense now? -Wikid77 11:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There's legitimate, notable, non-birther, non-fringe criticism of Obama from left, right and center on many, many topics — from the undeclared war against Libya, to continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, to continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay despite an executive order on January 21, 2009 stating that it would be closed within a year, to the way that Obamacare (a tax bill) originated in the Senate despite a constitutional requirement that any tax bill must originate in the House, to the remarkable shucking and jiving about the origins of the September 11, 2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate (with news media bootlickers providing ample cover, even in the middle of a televised presidential debate). Somehow, it always gets chopped down to a few words here or deleted entirely. And I haven't even mentioned the multitude of lies and broken promises from this president regarding the budget, the deficit, and the national debt. I say again, compare this article with the George W. Bush and Tony Blair biographies. Please explain. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess you don't like him. Not sure why. Maybe you always vote Republican. Seriously, opponents will always find fault with incumbent politicians. We cannot include everything they say. If you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

To the contrary, I voted for him three times (2004, 2008, 2012) out of party loyalty. Unlike many in my party, and on the left worldwide, I recognize a whitewash whenever and wherever I see one, and I'm not shy about calling it that. We could start with some of the topic areas I've mentioned:

• undeclared war against Libya, without even any oversight from Congress;
• continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, and let's discuss Bradley Manning's deplorable treatment and the extrajudicial execution of American civilians with drone aircraft while we're at it;
• continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay — if Obama can find $250 million to give away to the Egyptians despite a sequester, he could find enough money to transfer those detainees out of there if he really wanted to;
• Obamacare, a tax bill, originated in the Senate (or at least the version that was passed did) — but the Constitution requires tax bills to originate in the House;
• The constantly changing official White House story about how the Benghazi consulate attack originated, with cover and concealment from an amazingly cooperative and incurious news media during the two months before an election — so that after the election Hillary could say to Congress, "At this point, what difference does it make?";
• A campaign promise to cut the deficit in half during his first four years in office — just one of many budget and deficit-related campaign promises that weren't just broken, but shattered.

We could completely ignore any conservative source, no matter how reliable (i.e. National Review, Wall Street Journal). We could dismiss all of those reliable sources as scurrilous attacks motivated by partisanship, and focus entirely on criticism published in reliable sources from the left (Talking Points Memo, The Nation, Rolling Stone, The Village Voice, Mother Jones, etc.), and still pack this biography with criticism the way that the George W. Bush and Tony Blair bios are packed with criticism. But like Hillary said: at this point, what difference does it make? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the ills at once either. One at a time is safer. (And steer clear of birther nonsense like we see above. That kind of association will never help your case.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Did I even mention the birther nonsense except to say that the criticism in this article should be "non-birther"?

questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court - really?, care to cite that there was a Supreme Court hearing on the subject? RNealK (talk) 23:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, I was waiting for when this would get to the "I voted for him" line. If I had a nickel for every time in the seven years I've been editing this article that someone came on here to tell us how unbalanced, censored, whitewashed, pro-Obama this article is - and then rushed to assure us that they voted for him - I would retire. Tvoz/talk 07:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I became a little puzzled myself when User:Phoenix and Winslow told us he voted for Obama not just once, not twice, but three times, including 2004, but I let it pass and gave a good faith answer. Others can either explain that or draw their own conclusions. HiLo48 (talk) 07:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Presumably he was referring to Obama's (successful) candidacy for the senate in '04. Theoretically, he also could have voted for him for president then as well (see write-in vote). Evanh2008  08:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Maybe. HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I voted for him for the Senate in 2004. I'm an Illinois resident. And Tvoz, I supported Hillary in the 2008 primaries. She would have made a far better president. Does the internal disagreement within the Democratic Party ever occur to you? I voted for him, as I said, out of a sense of party loyalty. Compare this article to George W. Bush and try to tell me, Tvoz, that this isn't a whitewash. Not even one word of anything remotely resembling criticism until we get to the "Personal life" section at the very end of a lengthy article, when virtually no one is reading any more. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Also note how he/she believes that the constitution says all tax increases/bills must originate from the house. Following that false logic, because the Republicans control the house and they are anti-tax, then such a "tax bill" like Obamacare could never be constitutional because the Republican controlled house would have never agreed to it. You got to love "false neutral" people who claim they are neutral, or even liberal, then turn around and spout Tea Party BS. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't just "believe" it. Read Article I, Section Seven of the United States Constitution. All bills that raise revenue must originate in the House of Representatives. And at the time Obamacare was passed, the Democrats held a huge majority in the House, so alleged Republican control of the House is no excuse. Party loyalty doesn't enable me to ignore the Constitution. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This thread needs to end, please. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article. It is not for discussing the subject matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• agree, not neutral, reads like a Misplaced Pages:Peacock#Puffery, prove me wrong and point out the critic in the current article? Darkstar1st (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• damn straight, not neutral reads like a press release from Organizing for America. A direct comparison with the George W. Bush biography is all that's necessary here for any Misplaced Pages editor with even the slightest degree of objectivity. For the benefit of Scjessey, we are discussing how to improve the article. Currently the article pretends that there is no criticism of Obama's actions as president. Including some criticism would be an enormous improvement of the article. Let's continue to discuss it. All agree that creating a "criticism" section would be a POV magnet. Interweaving criticism into the fabric of the entire article is best practice. Furthermore, I only said that we "could" ignore conservative criticism. Best practice would be to provide a sampling from across the political spectrum, from highly notable and reliable sources both conservative and liberal. Agreed? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Question: when did this turn into some kind of voting thing where people who have a substantial and very obvious POV issues against the subject of this article can come in and make no specific points, but just spout Tea Part BS? I think it would be more constructive that if they chose not to be specific and instead say: "this article is not neutral," "I voted for him multiple times but I don't think this article is neutral," "I'm a democrat and feel that this article is a puff piece," "here are so and so Tea Part talking points that prove my points," etc, etc, that they need to walk away. The election is over, he's not going to be in office in less the four years. Pushing Tea Party talking points into this article will not achieve anything. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem with your analysis. I'm wearing my Misplaced Pages editor hat today, and I never was a Tea Party member. I disagree with nearly everything on their list of talking points, but that doesn't matter. Misplaced Pages editors don't care whether the subject of the biography is barred by a constitutional amendment from ever running for office again, or whether he will be out of office in three years and nine months. Misplaced Pages editors care about the quality of the biography TODAY, and specifically in this case, the neutrality of the article TODAY. And Misplaced Pages editors don't care whether you, Mr. IP Editor, are the return of a long-banned disruptive editor. We are only interested in one thing: identifying a very serious NPOV problem that has been residing on this biography for five years, and at last resolving the problem. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

an example of how the lede should read can be found in the article of the last president: After his re-election, Bush received increasingly heated criticism from across the political spectrum for his handling of the Iraq War, Hurricane Katrina, and numerous other controversies. as per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section, a similar line should be added to this article including one or more of the above mentioned notable controversies. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. Nothing approaches that in the Obama presidency. In any event, that is a matter for the Bush article. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. How is that different from Obama? For example, the House resolution to withdraw from Obama's undeclared war in Libya was sponsored by Dennis Kucinich, a liberal Democrat. Criticism of Obama is a very notable part of his presidency, and also goes beyond the usual partisan politics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

actually all presidents articles here mention controversy, it would be absurd to suggest Obama's presidency is void of such. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is not going anywhere, and seems to be a violation on several sides of article probation. If there's a specific suggestion for improving the article let's discuss that without talking about birthers, tea party, or supposed whitewashing. Those are the exact issues that got hundreds of (mostly sock) editors blocked and banned, and article probation in the first place. I believe the editors here and elsewhere have consistently rejected adding criticism or criticism sections strictly for its own sake. On a case by case basis we include various noteworthy matters in the article. If those happen to be interpreted as positive or negative by people, that's their interpretation. Mentioning the existence of criticism or controversy is only appropriate if the criticism or controversy itself is germane to the article using whatever inclusion standards. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

establishing significance of criticism in the lede

as per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section we are directed to mention of consequential or significant criticism or controversies. Significance is established by the notability in RS. Several RS established notability of several separate issues, we now must select the most notable one or more and include it. My specific suggestion would be the Disposition Matrix and the collateral damage resulting from the use of drones. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

That's not a bad choice. Personally, I'm kind of torn between the weeks and weeks of shucking and jiving about the origins of the 9/11/2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate, and the $6 trillion increase (so far) in the national debt, which will probably be Obama's most long-lasting legacy. Regarding the debt and the annual deficits that build it, there's a broad assortment of false statements, broken promises, and reversals of position from Obama. These have been picked apart and criticized in detail among several reliable sources. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I suppose we could mention all three. And interwoven into the fabric of the entire article, we should provide the most notable examples of criticism on several different topics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that's ridiculous. Partisan talking points have no place in the lede of a WP:BLP. As to whether history would consider any of these significant, well, that's up to history. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

They're not "partisan talking points," Loonymonkey. For example, a lot of the criticism regarding the extrajudicial execution of American citizens using drones has come from the progressive left. The criticism regarding many of these issues comes from all points on the political spectrum and cannot be dismissed so easily. But I can see that if it doesn't appear in a left-wing publication, with a citation to that left-wing publication, it will be dismissed as a "partisan talking point" and immediately reverted by the Obama fanboys here, right? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's probably right and proper that the word "drone" does not appear in this article. It's not like he will be known for that in the future, is it? On the other hand, I think keeping : "December 1, 2009, Obama ... proposed to begin troop withdrawals 18 months from that date." since July 2012 is not a sign of normal editing at work. --John (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

User:Phoenix and Winslow is desperate to see Obama cop a similar amount of criticism to Dubya. I'm not American. On the international stage, Dubya lied about WMDs, taking much of the western world, including my country, into a pointless war. His overall performance damaged America's image massively on the world stage. He is generally seen as a dishonest fool in most of the world. Obama has done nothing in that league. Maybe he will. He's got over three years to go. But so far, no. Demanding that Obama's article contain the same amount of criticism as one of America's worst ever Presidents is just stupid. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. Clearly you have a pro-Obama and anti-Bush POV, and I suspect that it pervades your editing on political topics. Fortunately, most of us here at Misplaced Pages are both able and willing to check our POVs at the door when editing, and we edit articles with a genuinely neutral POV. Give it a try sometime. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

During the recent presidential election campaign I closely watched both Obama's and Romney's pages. I was accused by supporters of both major parties of being a supporter of the other. I'm proud of that. You may not like what I wrote about Dubya's and Obama's international images, but it's completely true. I'm describing an unarguable reality, not my opinion. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

perhaps we exist in different realities as it is absurd to suggest Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Not as absurd as maintaining that this article meets Featured Article standards. --John (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Darkstar1st - What's absurd is you accusing me of saying that Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Misrepresenting what others say will never win an argument. What I am saying is that no more belongs in the article at this time. Comparisons with Dubya's article will never help either. HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

What I am saying is that no more belongs in the article at this time. Currently there is zero criticism in the article. So what you're saying is that zero criticism belongs in this article — even though very notable people on the left like Dennis Kucinich, who could never be accused of reciting Tea Party talking points, have sharply criticized Obama's actions as president. Is that correct? You believe that zero criticism belongs in this article? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

No. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

ok, so what should we add, or is there some criticism in there already, if so where? Darkstar1st (talk) 00:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

If no negative information is allowed into the article, how about as a compromise, we add a POV tag to the article to warn readers that this article doesn't follow WP:NPOV? Does that sound fair enough? If not, can someone suggest another way to deal with the NPOV issues with this article? All options should be open for consideration. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:37, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the perceived ills at once either. One at a time is safer. HiLo48 (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Gosh, that's a very high hoop to jump through. I think the administration's drone (extrajudicial killing, whatever you call it) policy and the debate surrounding it is of of significant weight and historical significance to be included here, not necessarily positive or negative even if people portray it so. Another note. The legal challenges to Obamacare are covered in depth here, barely at all in the "presidency of…" article (I removed some material there as undue) - Wikidemon (talk) 05:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious in your complaint that "that's a very high hoop to jump through"? I hope not. It's Misplaced Pages's normal standards for any article. HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the "high hoop" for adding material to the article is typing what you want to add to the article? The alternative would be everyone just complains on the talk page and nothing gets written? —Designate (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

If you can put the words together to make a complaint, you can try to put words together for the article. And note again that this is not just an ordinary article. To start with it's a biography of a living person. Our standards have to be the highest of all for BLPs. And it's about a politician, someone who some people will be predestined to look for faults with from birth, rather than discussing rationally. That again means greater scrutiny of proposed changes than normal. You can't just moan and groan about the article. You have to address your concerns properly. HiLo48 (talk) 00:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Individual editors such as you claim that you would allow criticism in the article. But my experience over several years has been that the moment it's introduced, it is reverted. And we are directed to put it into some other article. We are accused of being sockpuppets of some long-gone editor, or being racists for the innocent use of a regional colloquialism, or reciting Tea Party talking points. The result is that the lede, and the sections dealing with Obama's academic and political careers (in other words, the first 90% of the article) have been kept absolutely pristine and unsoiled by anything remotely resembling criticism. Another result is that editors like me, who have tried several times to introduce very well-sourced criticism into the article, have grown weary of beating our heads against that wall. We've given up. And Misplaced Pages's reputation as an unreliable, biased source has been preserved. I repeat, this article reads like a press release from Organizing for America. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Like many inexperienced editors, you fail to understand what WP:NPOV actually means. It does not mean that all points of view are represented, it means that all significant points of view are represented. It may simply time to face the fact that your point-of-view lies on the fringe and isn't worthy of mention in a serious encyclopedia project. That you try to cite a fringe right-wing rag like "newsrealblog.com" to support your argument is indicative of a complete failure to understand the neutral point of view. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, my viewpoint does not "lie on the fringe." Significant points of view, such as the anti-Obama dissenters within the Democratic Party, the peace movement, Amnesty International, and the entire Republican Party are being ignored. The fact that 47% of American voters wanted to get rid of Obama — in addition to people like me, who didn't much care for him but only voted for him out of party loyalty — doesn't register with editors like you. According to you, 47% of American voters aren't significant enough. You carefully ignore my citation of an excellent, peer-reviewed article published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, and pretend that the only article that I cited was NewsRealBlog. Such cherry-picking reveals your own bias. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Is there a point to any of this? Ambiguously demanding criticism isn't going to achieve anything. Make a specific proposal with specific text and then we can all weigh in on its merits. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Specific proposal: (A) Mention criticism in the lede, regarding (1) extrajudicial killings of American citizens with drone aircraft, (2) failure to close Guantanamo Bay, (3) US$6 trillion increase in the national debt, (4) crony capitalism and the $500 million failure at Solyndra plus other, similar green energy projects that failed spectacularly, (5) failure to end most of the worst excesses of the Bush Administration with regard to warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, and other elements of Dick Cheney style national security, and (6) the changing story regarding the origin of the 9/11/12 Benghazi attack, as well as Obama's failure to respond to that attack. (B) Follow through with one or two sentences on each of these six areas of criticism, carefully avoiding partisan attacks from the usual suspects and citing renowned, highly respected sources. Interweave these sentences into the text in the sections that already deal with all these topics in such a hagiograhic way. And make this article genuinely NPOV for the first time in its history, Scjessey. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

North Korea crisis

A little surprised that we can read no word about it. Please open a new part in Foreign policy section with North Korea crisis title and add: "The United States has in turn made a show of its military strength in the annual drills, flying B-2 stealth bombers capable of carrying conventional or nuclear weapons. The U.S. military is sending a land-based missile defense system to Guam to defend against possible North Korean ballistic missile launches." ref: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/world/asia/koreas-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/world/asia/guam-u-s-missiles/index.html?iref=allsearch 91.82.133.192 (talk) 01:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Too early for that to be in this article, which is generally more biographical in nature. Presidency of Barack Obama would be a better place to propose this. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 01:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

We must be careful to not give this more attention than it really deserves. NK would like to see massive attention on this from its "enemies", but there's not all that much evidence that there's really a crisis at all. Misplaced Pages is not a news service, and much better coverage will be able to be written about these events in, say, six months time. HiLo48 (talk) 01:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

"According to Article II, Section 2, Clause I of the Constitution, the President of the United States is commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces." So my wild guess is that the decision to drop practice bombs near to North Korea came from Obama. Moreover what are we waiting? According to http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2013/03/world/nuclear-weapon-states/ nor Afghanistan, nor Iraq, nor Libya has warheads, but North Korea has got! So are waiting to the start of a nuclear war? I accept that in the article it doesn't look like so nice that Obama lead(ed) so many wars, but tell me what is the point of an online encyclopedia? Isn't that to improve it and make it the best and not to color out/white wash it? It is raising many red flags that for every bad thing you say wait six months, and you immediately write about the positive moments like the Osama's death. In that case have you waited 6 months? No. 91.82.133.192 (talk) 02:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, wow, way too scatter shot a response there. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 02:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with OuroborosCobra. But I think a good reading of WP:NOTNEWS would be helpful. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Obama not an "activist"

After the "community organizers" category was renamed to "community activists", I removed the category from this article. Obama was not an "activist" and there are no references that support the idea that he was. In my opinion, the renaming of the category significantly changed its meaning, so it is no longer pertinent. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

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