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faq page Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
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Calling into question the neutrality of this article.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have read a few of the pages on current politicians here, and all of them include a section of questionable actions, criticism, and other information not on the positive side. I noticed more on the Republican pages than Independent or Democrat. Misplaced Pages has been very good at keeping things neutral, but this page is not neutral bias. From what I read I am under the impression that someone is actively editing this page on a near daily basis, removing items that cast any shadow of controversy on him.

I must call the neutrality of this article into question. There is no mention of his questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court, what SS numbers are assigned, names he has used in the past, nor his controversial terms in the Illinois legislature or at the federal level.

The validity of the controversy, whether factual or not should be included here for a non-biased and neutral article. As in the old saying "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" are needed for a neutral bias. This article reads like a puff news item, not up to the standards of Misplaced Pages. Milspecsim (talk) 01:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware Misplaced Pages was a gossip blog. We report on facts, not fiction.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:00, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

We don't include nonsense such as his political opponents' claims about "his questioned birth status" just to create balance. Don't stress. He can't stand again. If I was you I'd put effort into finding a great Republican candidate for next time around, rather than tilting at windmills here. HiLo48 (talk) 03:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• "03:31, 6 February 2013 User account Milspecsim (talk | contribs) was created". Yea. If this isn't yet another BryanFromPalatine or Gaydenver sock, I'll eat my hat. Tarc (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Notice how quickly and desperately the effort comes, to delegitimize anyone who accurately identifies the powerful pro-Obama bias in this article. Compare this article, and the amount of criticism from notable, reliable sources across the political spectrum that's being carefully excluded, with such articles as George W. Bush and Tony Blair. And go ahead and bite that newbie again, Tarc. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I've noticed nothing except valid criticism of the now completely discredited claims that the wasn't born in the US, plus some comments suggesting that those peddling such garbage take their energies elsewhere. Perhaps Bush's and Blair's article have more criticism because they deserve it for lying about WMDs and the like. And I don't care how long a person writing garbage has been here, or not. It's still garbage. HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Fringe topics often have separate spinoff articles: To avoid wp:UNDUE weight in the "smaller" main article, then rare or fringe topics are covered in spinoff articles, with little or no mention in the main article. In that manner, popular myths or imagined scandals can be explained, but have almost no coverage within a main article. For example, with article "Moon" there is a spinoff article as "Moon is made of green cheese" to adequately explain that topic, without wp:Grandstanding of the cheese-Moon concept in the main article. Otherwise, an article would become excessively cluttered with "101 disproven myths about topic". Does that make more sense now? -Wikid77 11:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There's legitimate, notable, non-birther, non-fringe criticism of Obama from left, right and center on many, many topics — from the undeclared war against Libya, to continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, to continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay despite an executive order on January 21, 2009 stating that it would be closed within a year, to the way that Obamacare (a tax bill) originated in the Senate despite a constitutional requirement that any tax bill must originate in the House, to the remarkable shucking and jiving about the origins of the September 11, 2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate (with news media bootlickers providing ample cover, even in the middle of a televised presidential debate). Somehow, it always gets chopped down to a few words here or deleted entirely. And I haven't even mentioned the multitude of lies and broken promises from this president regarding the budget, the deficit, and the national debt. I say again, compare this article with the George W. Bush and Tony Blair biographies. Please explain. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess you don't like him. Not sure why. Maybe you always vote Republican. Seriously, opponents will always find fault with incumbent politicians. We cannot include everything they say. If you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

To the contrary, I voted for him three times (2004, 2008, 2012) out of party loyalty. Unlike many in my party, and on the left worldwide, I recognize a whitewash whenever and wherever I see one, and I'm not shy about calling it that. We could start with some of the topic areas I've mentioned:

• undeclared war against Libya, without even any oversight from Congress;
• continued extraordinary rendition and warrantless wiretaps, and let's discuss Bradley Manning's deplorable treatment and the extrajudicial execution of American civilians with drone aircraft while we're at it;
• continued indefinite detentions at Guantanamo Bay — if Obama can find $250 million to give away to the Egyptians despite a sequester, he could find enough money to transfer those detainees out of there if he really wanted to;
• Obamacare, a tax bill, originated in the Senate (or at least the version that was passed did) — but the Constitution requires tax bills to originate in the House;
• The constantly changing official White House story about how the Benghazi consulate attack originated, with cover and concealment from an amazingly cooperative and incurious news media during the two months before an election — so that after the election Hillary could say to Congress, "At this point, what difference does it make?";
• A campaign promise to cut the deficit in half during his first four years in office — just one of many budget and deficit-related campaign promises that weren't just broken, but shattered.

We could completely ignore any conservative source, no matter how reliable (i.e. National Review, Wall Street Journal). We could dismiss all of those reliable sources as scurrilous attacks motivated by partisanship, and focus entirely on criticism published in reliable sources from the left (Talking Points Memo, The Nation, Rolling Stone, The Village Voice, Mother Jones, etc.), and still pack this biography with criticism the way that the George W. Bush and Tony Blair bios are packed with criticism. But like Hillary said: at this point, what difference does it make? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the ills at once either. One at a time is safer. (And steer clear of birther nonsense like we see above. That kind of association will never help your case.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Did I even mention the birther nonsense except to say that the criticism in this article should be "non-birther"?

questioned birth status recently heard in the US Supreme Court - really?, care to cite that there was a Supreme Court hearing on the subject? RNealK (talk) 23:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, I was waiting for when this would get to the "I voted for him" line. If I had a nickel for every time in the seven years I've been editing this article that someone came on here to tell us how unbalanced, censored, whitewashed, pro-Obama this article is - and then rushed to assure us that they voted for him - I would retire. Tvoz/talk 07:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I became a little puzzled myself when User:Phoenix and Winslow told us he voted for Obama not just once, not twice, but three times, including 2004, but I let it pass and gave a good faith answer. Others can either explain that or draw their own conclusions. HiLo48 (talk) 07:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Presumably he was referring to Obama's (successful) candidacy for the senate in '04. Theoretically, he also could have voted for him for president then as well (see write-in vote). Evanh2008  08:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Maybe. HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I voted for him for the Senate in 2004. I'm an Illinois resident. And Tvoz, I supported Hillary in the 2008 primaries. She would have made a far better president. Does the internal disagreement within the Democratic Party ever occur to you? I voted for him, as I said, out of a sense of party loyalty. Compare this article to George W. Bush and try to tell me, Tvoz, that this isn't a whitewash. Not even one word of anything remotely resembling criticism until we get to the "Personal life" section at the very end of a lengthy article, when virtually no one is reading any more. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Also note how he/she believes that the constitution says all tax increases/bills must originate from the house. Following that false logic, because the Republicans control the house and they are anti-tax, then such a "tax bill" like Obamacare could never be constitutional because the Republican controlled house would have never agreed to it. You got to love "false neutral" people who claim they are neutral, or even liberal, then turn around and spout Tea Party BS. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't just "believe" it. Read Article I, Section Seven of the United States Constitution. All bills that raise revenue must originate in the House of Representatives. And at the time Obamacare was passed, the Democrats held a huge majority in the House, so alleged Republican control of the House is no excuse. Party loyalty doesn't enable me to ignore the Constitution. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• agree, not neutral, reads like a Misplaced Pages:Peacock#Puffery, prove me wrong and point out the critic in the current article? Darkstar1st (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• damn straight, not neutral reads like a press release from Organizing for America. A direct comparison with the George W. Bush biography is all that's necessary here for any Misplaced Pages editor with even the slightest degree of objectivity. For the benefit of Scjessey, we are discussing how to improve the article. Currently the article pretends that there is no criticism of Obama's actions as president. Including some criticism would be an enormous improvement of the article. Let's continue to discuss it. All agree that creating a "criticism" section would be a POV magnet. Interweaving criticism into the fabric of the entire article is best practice. Furthermore, I only said that we "could" ignore conservative criticism. Best practice would be to provide a sampling from across the political spectrum, from highly notable and reliable sources both conservative and liberal. Agreed? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Question: when did this turn into some kind of voting thing where people who have a substantial and very obvious POV issues against the subject of this article can come in and make no specific points, but just spout Tea Part BS? I think it would be more constructive that if they chose not to be specific and instead say: "this article is not neutral," "I voted for him multiple times but I don't think this article is neutral," "I'm a democrat and feel that this article is a puff piece," "here are so and so Tea Part talking points that prove my points," etc, etc, that they need to walk away. The election is over, he's not going to be in office in less the four years. Pushing Tea Party talking points into this article will not achieve anything. 74.79.34.29 (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem with your analysis. I'm wearing my Misplaced Pages editor hat today, and I never was a Tea Party member. I disagree with nearly everything on their list of talking points, but that doesn't matter. Misplaced Pages editors don't care whether the subject of the biography is barred by a constitutional amendment from ever running for office again, or whether he will be out of office in three years and nine months. Misplaced Pages editors care about the quality of the biography TODAY, and specifically in this case, the neutrality of the article TODAY. And Misplaced Pages editors don't care whether you, Mr. IP Editor, are the return of a long-banned disruptive editor. We are only interested in one thing: identifying a very serious NPOV problem that has been residing on this biography for five years, and at last resolving the problem. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

an example of how the lede should read can be found in the article of the last president: After his re-election, Bush received increasingly heated criticism from across the political spectrum for his handling of the Iraq War, Hurricane Katrina, and numerous other controversies. as per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section, a similar line should be added to this article including one or more of the above mentioned notable controversies. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. Nothing approaches that in the Obama presidency. In any event, that is a matter for the Bush article. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The criticism of Bush was a notable part of his presidency, and went beyond the usual partisan politics. How is that different from Obama? For example, the House resolution to withdraw from Obama's undeclared war in Libya was sponsored by Dennis Kucinich, a liberal Democrat. Criticism of Obama is a very notable part of his presidency, and also goes beyond the usual partisan politics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

actually all presidents articles here mention controversy, it would be absurd to suggest Obama's presidency is void of such. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is not going anywhere, and seems to be a violation on several sides of article probation. If there's a specific suggestion for improving the article let's discuss that without talking about birthers, tea party, or supposed whitewashing. Those are the exact issues that got hundreds of (mostly sock) editors blocked and banned, and article probation in the first place. I believe the editors here and elsewhere have consistently rejected adding criticism or criticism sections strictly for its own sake. On a case by case basis we include various noteworthy matters in the article. If those happen to be interpreted as positive or negative by people, that's their interpretation. Mentioning the existence of criticism or controversy is only appropriate if the criticism or controversy itself is germane to the article using whatever inclusion standards. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

establishing significance of criticism in the lede

as per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section we are directed to mention of consequential or significant criticism or controversies. Significance is established by the notability in RS. Several RS established notability of several separate issues, we now must select the most notable one or more and include it. My specific suggestion would be the Disposition Matrix and the collateral damage resulting from the use of drones. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

That's not a bad choice. Personally, I'm kind of torn between the weeks and weeks of shucking and jiving about the origins of the 9/11/2012 attack on the Benghazi consulate, and the $6 trillion increase (so far) in the national debt, which will probably be Obama's most long-lasting legacy. Regarding the debt and the annual deficits that build it, there's a broad assortment of false statements, broken promises, and reversals of position from Obama. These have been picked apart and criticized in detail among several reliable sources. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I suppose we could mention all three. And interwoven into the fabric of the entire article, we should provide the most notable examples of criticism on several different topics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that's ridiculous. Partisan talking points have no place in the lede of a WP:BLP. As to whether history would consider any of these significant, well, that's up to history. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

They're not "partisan talking points," Loonymonkey. For example, a lot of the criticism regarding the extrajudicial execution of American citizens using drones has come from the progressive left. The criticism regarding many of these issues comes from all points on the political spectrum and cannot be dismissed so easily. But I can see that if it doesn't appear in a left-wing publication, with a citation to that left-wing publication, it will be dismissed as a "partisan talking point" and immediately reverted by the Obama fanboys here, right? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's probably right and proper that the word "drone" does not appear in this article. It's not like he will be known for that in the future, is it? On the other hand, I think keeping : "December 1, 2009, Obama ... proposed to begin troop withdrawals 18 months from that date." since July 2012 is not a sign of normal editing at work. --John (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

User:Phoenix and Winslow is desperate to see Obama cop a similar amount of criticism to Dubya. I'm not American. On the international stage, Dubya lied about WMDs, taking much of the western world, including my country, into a pointless war. His overall performance damaged America's image massively on the world stage. He is generally seen as a dishonest fool in most of the world. Obama has done nothing in that league. Maybe he will. He's got over three years to go. But so far, no. Demanding that Obama's article contain the same amount of criticism as one of America's worst ever Presidents is just stupid. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. Clearly you have a pro-Obama and anti-Bush POV, and I suspect that it pervades your editing on political topics. Fortunately, most of us here at Misplaced Pages are both able and willing to check our POVs at the door when editing, and we edit articles with a genuinely neutral POV. Give it a try sometime. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

During the recent presidential election campaign I closely watched both Obama's and Romney's pages. I was accused by supporters of both major parties of being a supporter of the other. I'm proud of that. You may not like what I wrote about Dubya's and Obama's international images, but it's completely true. I'm describing an unarguable reality, not my opinion. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

perhaps we exist in different realities as it is absurd to suggest Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Not as absurd as maintaining that this article meets Featured Article standards. --John (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Darkstar1st - What's absurd is you accusing me of saying that Obama is free of any consequential or significant criticism. Misrepresenting what others say will never win an argument. What I am saying is that no more belongs in the article at this time. Comparisons with Dubya's article will never help either. HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

What I am saying is that no more belongs in the article at this time. Currently there is zero criticism in the article. So what you're saying is that zero criticism belongs in this article — even though very notable people on the left like Dennis Kucinich, who could never be accused of reciting Tea Party talking points, have sharply criticized Obama's actions as president. Is that correct? You believe that zero criticism belongs in this article? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

No. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

ok, so what should we add, or is there some criticism in there already, if so where? Darkstar1st (talk) 00:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, if you believe a particular, well-sourced story should be included in the article, feel free to present your case. Propose the wording you think is appropriate, and list the sources that support it. That's much easier to support than general, sweeping criticism of the article. Don't try to tackle all the perceived ills at once either. One at a time is safer. HiLo48 (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Gosh, that's a very high hoop to jump through. I think the administration's drone (extrajudicial killing, whatever you call it) policy and the debate surrounding it is of of significant weight and historical significance to be included here, not necessarily positive or negative even if people portray it so. Another note. The legal challenges to Obamacare are covered in depth here, barely at all in the "presidency of…" article (I removed some material there as undue) - Wikidemon (talk) 05:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious in your complaint that "that's a very high hoop to jump through"? I hope not. It's Misplaced Pages's normal standards for any article. HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the "high hoop" for adding material to the article is typing what you want to add to the article? The alternative would be everyone just complains on the talk page and nothing gets written? —Designate (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

If you can put the words together to make a complaint, you can try to put words together for the article. And note again that this is not just an ordinary article. To start with it's a biography of a living person. Our standards have to be the highest of all for BLPs. And it's about a politician, someone who some people will be predestined to look for faults with from birth, rather than discussing rationally. That again means greater scrutiny of proposed changes than normal. You can't just moan and groan about the article. You have to address your concerns properly. HiLo48 (talk) 00:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Individual editors such as you claim that you would allow criticism in the article. But my experience over several years has been that the moment it's introduced, it is reverted. And we are directed to put it into some other article. We are accused of being sockpuppets of some long-gone editor, or being racists for the innocent use of a regional colloquialism, or reciting Tea Party talking points. The result is that the lede, and the sections dealing with Obama's academic and political careers (in other words, the first 90% of the article) have been kept absolutely pristine and unsoiled by anything remotely resembling criticism. Another result is that editors like me, who have tried several times to introduce very well-sourced criticism into the article, have grown weary of beating our heads against that wall. We've given up. And Misplaced Pages's reputation as an unreliable, biased source has been preserved. I repeat, this article reads like a press release from Organizing for America. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Like many inexperienced editors, you fail to understand what WP:NPOV actually means. It does not mean that all points of view are represented, it means that all significant points of view are represented. It may simply time to face the fact that your point-of-view lies on the fringe and isn't worthy of mention in a serious encyclopedia project. That you try to cite a fringe right-wing rag like "newsrealblog.com" to support your argument is indicative of a complete failure to understand the neutral point of view. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, my viewpoint does not "lie on the fringe." Significant points of view, such as the anti-Obama dissenters within the Democratic Party, the peace movement, Amnesty International, and the entire Republican Party are being ignored. The fact that 47% of American voters wanted to get rid of Obama — in addition to people like me, who didn't much care for him but only voted for him out of party loyalty — doesn't register with editors like you. According to you, 47% of American voters aren't significant enough. You carefully ignore my citation of an excellent, peer-reviewed article published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, and pretend that the only article that I cited was NewsRealBlog. Such cherry-picking reveals your own bias. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Is there a point to any of this? Ambiguously demanding criticism isn't going to achieve anything. Make a specific proposal with specific text and then we can all weigh in on its merits. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Specific proposal: (A) Mention criticism in the lede, regarding (1) extrajudicial killings of American citizens with drone aircraft, (2) failure to close Guantanamo Bay, (3) US$6 trillion increase in the national debt, (4) crony capitalism and the $500 million failure at Solyndra plus other, similar green energy projects that failed spectacularly, (5) failure to end most of the worst excesses of the Bush Administration with regard to warrantless wiretapping, extraordinary rendition, and other elements of Dick Cheney style national security, and (6) the changing story regarding the origin of the 9/11/12 Benghazi attack, as well as Obama's failure to respond to that attack. (B) Follow through with one or two sentences on each of these six areas of criticism, carefully avoiding partisan attacks from the usual suspects and citing renowned, highly respected sources. Interweave these sentences into the text in the sections that already deal with all these topics in such a hagiographic way. And make this article genuinely NPOV for the first time in its history, Scjessey. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not specific proposals. They are (for the most part) talking points. Besides, the list you have presented doesn't include anything biographically significant at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming all my criticisms of this article, Scjessey, and the clique of Obama fanboys who WP:OWN it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for religiously conforming to Misplaced Pages's policies of assuming good faith and not making personal attacks. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Your results over these past five years speak for themselves, Scjessey. They speak for themselves loud and clear. No criticism has been allowed into the article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No fucking way, there is no place for birther gibberish in this article, any more than Apollo 11 should devote a section to moon landing conspiracy theories, which is listed only in the See Also section. Tarc (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Whether birtherism (is that a word?) is gibberish is irrelevant. The fact is that it was a notable controversy through most of his presidency. And actually, Apollo 11 shouldn't even have a See Also link moon landing conspiracy theories as it's not notable enough to even include as a link. I'd delete it myself, but the looners (I think I just coined a word!) would probably complain. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Please stop trying to steer this discussion into questions about Obama's citizenship. "Birther" and "birtherism" have become neologisms in the same way that "9/11 Truther" became a neologism: to describe a conspiracy theory that should not be given any credibility by repeating it here. AQFK, when you raise questions about Obama's citizenship, you hand fresh ammunition to the clique of Obama fanboys who WP:OWN this article. They are trying desperately to delegitimize any criticism at all.

Any.

Criticism.

At all.

Including criticism that has nothing to do with his citizenship, and everything to do with his many notable failures as a president. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

You need to stop with the accusations and personal attacks. You've now made the same ones multiple times. Stop it. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 18:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Sigh......It wasn't a "notable controversy". There are no reliable sources that have stated "doubts/questions/conspiracy theories/whatever you want to call it over his birth"(we call it what the vast majority of RS call it, conspiracy theories/Birthers). We have an article on the conspiracy theories. We don't need to add them to this article, even this discussion is attracting the POV flies that thrive on this **it. There is strong consensus to exclude the birther silliness, I suggest reading the Talk page archives if you question that consensus. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@DD2K: I don't understand your second sentence. There are tons of reliable sources which have covered this. It was even front page news when Trump got involved and Obama produced his birth certificate. I don't doubt that there is strong consensus against inclusion. That's not my point.

I work on our September 11 attacks and we face a similar problem to what your facing at Barrack Obama: we are constantly beset by 9/11 truthers who want to use Misplaced Pages to promote their conspiracy theories. In fact, the situation at the 9/11 article was probably worse than here. Not only was 9/11 conspiracy theories mentioned in the article, we had an entire section devoted to it. I spent 2(!) years building consensus to have the section removed. It was a lot of hard work, but eventually it paid off. It's still mentioned in the article, but it's done in a respectful, encyclopedic fashion. I'm just saying it can be done, and I would argue that Birtherism is far more notable than 9/11 conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:51, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Has the media covered birtherism? Sure. Stated there is one ounce of credibility to the conspiracy theories? No. Just the opposite. And your comparisons(Truthers/Birthers) are off. You're comparing the wrong articles. Does the George W Bush article make the claims that 9-11 was 'an inside job'? No? Could that be because it's a living persons article? So is this one. We have several other articles that mention the birther conspiracies(Birther, Obama eligibility litigation, Obama birther legislation, Religious conspiracy theories, etc). So Misplaced Pages has articles on the conspiracies and the related silliness. It just hasn't effected Obama or his Presidency. Similar to the way the Truthers and all of their efforts have not effected Dubya or his. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 21:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

yet W contains a reasonable amount of critique, O does not. either you believe he is above such, or you are unable/willing to add it here. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Dubya took much of the world into a despicable war in Iraq based on lies about WMDs. He is globally despised. He deserves the criticism in his article. When Obama does something equivalent to that, add it to the article, HiLo48 (talk) 03:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

according to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section & Biographies of living persons which specific criteria are you referring? i did not see deserve in either rather the phrase consequential or significant criticism or controversies, Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, When writing about controversies in the lead of the biography of a living person, notable material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm. You think the the '''kill list''' used to eliminate a 16 year-old US citizen by drone is not controversial, i disagree and suggest the amount of RS confirm the notability. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Dubya's negative impact was (and still is) globally recognised. This is a global encyclopaedia. You Americans can argue the point over internal politics elsewhere. Just don't use Misplaced Pages for it please. HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

global recognized is not a criteria, if you meant significant, as the guide reads, perhaps you would accept the NYT as a source? , his Dad also a US citizen was droned a few weeks later. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

By referring us to the NYT, you have supported my point. In which country is New York? HiLo48 (talk) 05:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

global recognized is not a criteria, your point is moot. Darkstar1st (talk) 06:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Significance matters. If an "issue" is only an issue because of local politics, that's playing non-neutral point of view game. SO far you haven't demonstrated otherwise. HiLo48 (talk) 08:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

significance is determined by the amount of coverage in RS. describing the drone bombing of a foreign country as "local politics" is absurd. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:02, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

You've just lost all credibility on the consistency front. You've realised that your concern about US citizens being the target is a truly parochial one, so now you're concerned about US interference in a foreign country. All the citizens of the 110 countries where US troops are stationed (and have been for decades) will be delighted with your new found concern for their independence. HiLo48 (talk) 09:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to cite a policy. Any time. Evanh2008  10:07, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I must have missed the bit in WP:BLP about mention of criticism only being permissible if the person deserves it. Silly me! Evanh2008  08:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I also must have missed the policy that says we need to include every Republican/Tea Party talking point about President Obama. I also must have missed the policy that says we have to give them more weight then they deserve. Also can anyone tell me the policy that says that we need to have an equal amount of criticism between two different presidential articles? Maybe there is a rule that says that if so and so American president is elected after another president, that their two articles must have equal amounts of good to bad? I sure must have missed all those rules? 74.79.34.29 (talk) 11:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Tea Party criticism or Republican criticism (I suspect you already knew that), and I'm certainly not talking about conspiracy theory nonsense. I'm talking about criticism that has received sizable coverage not only from American news outlets but from sources throughout the world. The drone issue has been commented upon by multiple British publications, including The Guardian, The Independent, andThe Telegraph, in addition to Der Spiegel and The Times of India. The application above of "Bush deserves his criticism" (which I'm not disagreeing with) is nothing more than an attempt to justify double-standard with WP:ILIKEIT. The manual of style states that the lead "should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." We don't get to overrule the MoS without a very good reason. Not liking Bush is, unfortunately, not a good enough reason. Evanh2008  00:51, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

proposal

i suggest we add the Kill List controversy which resulted in the death of two US citizens by drone. NYT and this source NBC which uses the term controversy in the story title. please respond with support or oppose then explain, comments will be moved to a different section. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Why are we talking about a British horror film? HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

because the virtually unknown film is currently squatting where the common name for Disposition Matrix should be and editors have resisted the rename to kill List (film) for some reason. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it the common name in the UK? HiLo48 (talk) 11:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

yes Obama has not only asserted, but aggressively exercised, the power to target for execution anyone he wants, including US citizens, anywhere in the world. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - I cannot see how the deaths of terrorists on foreign soil are biographically notable enough to include here. The debate about these deaths is way too complex to be squished into a digestable bite small enough for inclusion. You would have to violate WP:WEIGHT in order to put in a segment that would do the subject justice. Perhaps Presidency of Barack Obama would be a better place? -- Scjessey (talk) 11:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

there appears to be more than enough RS describing the 1st POTUS to target for assassination of US citizens to create a section. and since he is the first it is considered outside the scope of the previous presidentcy articles the same way W illegal war was. The NYT quoted a Bush intelligence official as saying "he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president" Darkstar1st (talk) 14:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

and the ensuing coverup, According to Becker and Shane, President Obama has also been involved in the use of a fraudulent method of counting drone kills, one that unrealistically deemphasizes civilian deaths. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Motherjones is the worldnetdaily of the left, not a reliable source. Conspiracy theories do not belong in a biographical article. Tarc (talk) 16:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

really, MJ is considered a rs elsewhere on wp, would truth-out suffice? Pakistan have been civilian noncombatants - not "militants," as the Obama administration has claimed. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

or the Gaurdian? Most of the evidence suggests the White House's assertion is inaccurate – but hard data on drones is difficult to come by Darkstar1st (talk) 17:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The drone program and surrounding dispute over its appropriateness are noteworthy issue (a series of issues, really) but I don't believe nearly noteworthy enough or biographically relevant at this time to include in the article. That could change. There are a series of articles on these subjects so the question is whether to link and/or refer to them. The Presidency article devotes a paragraph and hints but does not directly say that there's a controversy and opposition. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly support Obviously notable, with criticism coming from across the political spectrum. It isn't just a Tea Party talking point. Evidently the criticism must come from the left or it can't appear in this article, and any lame excuse to keep it out will do. But The Guardian is on board so there you go. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - It would seem undue. NickCT (talk) 07:25, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - One could argue that this should have received more coverage in the news media, but it didn't. Our job as Misplaced Pages editors is to hold a mirror up to the world and accurately reflect what the world says about a subject. This is WP:UNDUE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

actually did/still does. perhaps we are not viewing the same news media? the story continues to get coverages years later, using the exact term required for inclusion, controversy. the most controversial drone strike took place on Oct. 14, 2011, when 16-year-old Abdulrahman was killed by U.S. forces. Democrats demanded that President Obama be more transparent about drones, secret legal memos, and kill lists. He declined.. No Americans are currently marked for death on the U.S. government’s terrorist strike list the US drone dead is now at 4. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point. It is a serious issue, but it is not biographically significant. Can you honestly say that drone strikes are one of the defining features of Obama's life story? This stuff is for Presidency of Barack Obama, not here. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

any blp of a person who keeps a list of people they decide should die, then makes them dead, would be a significant part of their life. how could such a heavy topic not be? Darkstar1st (talk) 12:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Please tell me you are joking. You are making it sound as if Obama personally carries a kill list with him. The United States, as a nation, has a list of terrorists to be killed or captured, just like many other countries around the world. I know it sounds like a big deal, but it really isn't. Not biographically significant, okay? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

i wish it were a joke, Barack Obama has insisted on personally approving a 'kill list' of Al Qaeda... Darkstar1st (talk) 13:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

But that is a good thing. Unlike previous presidents, we now have one who takes responsibility for targeted killing instead of handing it off to Defense of Intelligence chiefs. Regardless, it is still not biographically significant. Time for you to let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that the kill list doesn't have enough coverage in reliable sources to be included here, or are you saying that it would never be included in this article regardless of its coverage? —Designate (talk) 14:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I am saying this is the wrong article to put this in because it isn't biographically significant. This article is about Obama's life as a whole, and this stuff hasn't had any measurable effect on that (yet). It should be in Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

How do you gauge whether something has had a "measureable effect" on his "life as a whole"? What would need to happen for you to decide "Okay, now it's biographically significant"? Can you pick a random sentence from the existing Presidency section and demonstrate how it's biographically significant? —Designate (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

An example of "biographically significant" would be winning election to office. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

and keeping a list of people you plan to kill is not? Darkstar1st (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not. As Scjessey has already pointed out to you, the USA, and many other countries, will have had lists of people they want dead for as long as countries have existed. That's it's in the hands of the elected leader won't be unique either. Given that such lists exist, it's probably the best place for it. The existence of this list is simply not a notable biographical aspect of Obama's life. HiLo48 (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

no, you just made that up. name one other country with a kill list. Darkstar1st (talk) 02:09, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

If you put your mind to it, I'm sure you can think of one. Tarc (talk) 03:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

LOL. Yes, I was going to suggest North Korea, but that will do. Maybe the difference here is the public awareness. That gives me an idea. We can add "President Obama gained considerable kudos for being the first world leader to publicly acknowledge that his country has a kill list". OK by you Darkstar? HiLo48 (talk) 03:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

wp:blp, Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources do you consider the following a secondary source? do you consider it criticism of Obama? Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will. ...Several were Americans. Two were teenagers, including a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

What's secret about the list? Not much of a source if it claims the list is a secret. Oh, and do realise that being well sourced is a minimum requirement for including something, but we don't include everything that's well sourced. HiLo48 (talk) 07:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

true, however we do include criticism in blp, so unless you are claiming this is not, i do not understand your continued objection to this material? Darkstar1st (talk) 09:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, Scjessey, can you pick a sentence from the Presidency section and demonstrate how it's "biographically significant"? Unless you define "biographically significant" in an actionable manner this is a circular argument: it should not be included because it's not worthy of inclusion. (Darkstar, please do not respond to any comments in this chain. I can't have a conversation if you respond to every single post.) —Designate (talk) 16:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't have to. The fact that he was (twice) elected POTUS is biographically significant, so (of course) it is necessary to précis his presidency in the article. Besides, the issue here is whether or not this "kill list" bullshit is suitable for the lede of the article. I think there is likely to be broad agreement that it belongs in Presidency of Barack Obama, after which a consensus may be found for including it in the "presidency" section as part of the précis. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

For one thing, Scjessey, the Kill List controversy isn't "bullshit" if it's on the front freakin page of The New York Times. It's far more notable than many other facts which have found their way into this article. It's the gold standard of reliable sources at Misplaced Pages. And its presence in some other article is not a prerequisite to adding it to this one, unless you're the designated spokesman on behalf of a clique. Is that the case? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The quality of the source is academic if it is not relevant to the article. Right now, the "kill list" is not biographically significant. It has not (to date) had any impact on Obama's "life story" whatsoever. And I am not saying the kill list itself is bullshit, just all the arm waving that has come with it. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

have the objecting editors been satisfied?

5 or so editors have made their objections known, all have now been addressed and satisfied correct? one editor has suggested it is undue, however that cannot be the case as the article would be undue without the edit, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. being featured in a 12 page article in the nyt and mentioned in several other widely read rs over years would certainly qualify as significant, and there is certainly a lack of criticism in the article, therefore all sides are not currently represented. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No, this editor is not satisfied. HiLo48 (talk) 11:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

in what way? you have acknowledged the nyt is a rs and significant, and yet to agree the article is criticism. do you have any other objection, if so what? Darkstar1st (talk) 11:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

That you write expressions such as "...and yet to agree the article is criticism", thinking it makes some sense, demonstrates a major gap between our levels of thinking here. I have made my objections. You clearly do not understand them. I cannot fix that. HiLo48 (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

so you do agree the source is reliable and the article contains criticism which is what is required for inclusion, and specifically should be according to blp. your last objection was the list is a secret, you can take that up at the rs noticeboard, we do not interpret the rs, simply cite them as is. unless you articulate your specific policy based objection, i cannot address your concerns and worry you may accidentally be obstructing the article by not clarifying your objection. Darkstar1st (talk) 12:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No. You appear to be simply not understanding what I have written, and you are misrepresenting much of it. You have not addressed my concerns in any way at all. At this point I have nothing more to say. HiLo48 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No. And add an Oppose to the above section. I agree with several other editors here. This issue isn't weighted for inclusion. Thanks Dave Dial (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm`with Dave Dial. No, and oppose. Tvoz/talk 05:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And the clique of Obama fanboys that WP:OWNs the article wins another round. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

No. It's undue for the reasons I've already explained. Look, I don't deny that this article suffers from POV issues, but this not the way to go about solving it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

OK Phoenix and Winslow, you want your abuse to stay here? Then have the courage to name the members of "the clique of Obama fanboys that WP:OWNs the article". Your post would then immediately become a personal attack. In it's present form it's just a pointless, destructive post. HiLo48 (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And inaccurate to boot. Tvoz/talk 04:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I urge that we close this discussion, as the tone is completely inappropriate. If anyone wishes to make any proposals or discuss the article constructively, please do that in a new section minus any insults or infighting. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 04:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Satisfied? No. The article is a joke. No mention of drones in the article whatsoever? An update needed tag from July 2012? Come on! It certainly doesn't meet FA standards, and hasn't done for a good while, if ever. --John (talk) 05:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Well John, that's the story of this article. Anything that makes Obama look good goes into the article quickly. No questions asked. Anything that remotely resembles criticism runs into a brick wall of objections. It's hard to tell whether some of these editors are on the payroll of Organizing for Action, or just volunteering. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Which editors? Come on. Name them. If you do, you will be guilty of personal attack. If you won't, you're just creating unnecessary and unhelpful conflict here. Please just discuss the words and arguments people use. HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm getting really fucking tired of people making unsubstantiated comments that call into question the integrity of other editors. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a pain, but it can be a compliment too. During the last Presidential campaign I closely watched both this and Romney's article, working hard to keep crap out of both of them. Obsessive supporters of both sides accused me of being a supporter of the other. That made me kinda proud. HiLo48 (talk) 08:29, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

you are proud of leaving Romney became involved in several pranks while attending Cranbrook. He has since apologized, stating that some of the pranks may have gone too far. in Mitt's article and keeping out the part about Obama's practice of daily perusing a list personally approving names of people to be killed, seriously? Darkstar1st (talk) 11:50, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I argued very strongly against that ancient mud throwing at Romney. I might go back there and try again to get rid of it. HiLo48 (talk) 20:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the place to discuss the Romney article but I've shortened the mention and cut out all the details that got stuffed into a footnote. We'll see how long that lasts. Now, anybody want me to go clean up the John McCain article? Hillary Clinton? Vladimir Putin? Kim Jong-un? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

These accusations of bad faith are all not an appropriate subject of discussion here, and they're distracting from any sincere attempts to improve the article. Now please cut it out. - Wikidemon (talk) 14:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Every government has a kill list. Be thankful Obama prefers to personally scrutinize it, rather than leaving such decisions entirely in the hands of unelected DoD/CIA types. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

perhaps, but there are only RS describing one specific leader who is currently using a kill list and how that is not relevant here is bizarre. any blp would contain info about a kill list, president or not. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:50, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong. The "kill list" (which is a gross oversimplification, by the way) is not remarkable at all. It is slightly unusual that POTUS should personally review it, but that is a good thing. Clearly, a significant majority of editors do not agree with your position, so if you keep banging on about this it will be seen as pointy. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

"kill list" has appeared far more times in print than Romney's prank. your opinion that someone who decides who will be on a list of people to be killed is absurd and immaterial as we MUST include ALL significant CRITICISM and praise. according to policy. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The fact doesn't appear to be of due significance and relevance. The criticism is considerably less significant at this point, but that could change. There's no particular requirement to include criticism or praise, and a preference to avoid it because that's not an encyclopedic way to construct a biography. On the other hand a national politician's approval ratings do have some slight biographical relevance, although I suspect that fades and the opinions of experts and legacy become more important down the road once someone is out of office. Wikidemon (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

less significant how? kill list is the subject of a 12 page article in the NYT AND several other sources with multiple instances over the last year+. yesterday's Herald: Mounting more drone strikes across a greater expanse of the globe than Bush, Obama personally presides over who lives and who dies.. requirement no, rather a suggestion. wp:blp, Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources Darkstar1st (talk) 17:07, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm afraid Darkstar1st is right. Scjessey, your attempt to threaten another user with a justified suggestion for improving the article is not ok. I really strongly suggest folks here take a good look at themselves and at the article and reappraise (at least) the drones thing. It's a truly stunning omission and inclusion has been stonewalled here for a long time. No wonder people get frustrated. --John (talk) 17:21, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

  Please explain where this "threat" is? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

  • This Hagiography has been WP:OWNED for a long time and I don't see that neding anytime soon. Arzel (talk) 17:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

    Just because an article doesn't reflect your ideology, it doesn't make it a hagiography. Consider playing a different tune for a change, Arzel. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

    • Guys, please disengage. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

      • I have to agree, WD, this thread has gone way off-topic (remember, article talk pages are used for discussing specific improvements to the article) and has become a WP:BATTLEGROUND. I urge closing this thread. If anyone would like to propose a specific improvement to this article, please open a new thread to do so. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I haven't checked much of the archives, but if after nearly 5 years in office his Misplaced Pages article has no criticism or controversy, I'm guessing that's been done many times before and it's been blocked every time. I think the problem of ownership needs to be addressed rather than just having a continuation of the perpetual dismissal of anything negative making it into the article. Keted6 (talk) 22:15, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

If you have NPOV and Ownership concerns, then please seek RfC or report to NPOV/N. But, everyone, EVERYONE, please refrain from using the article talk page as a battleground. If you have specific suggestions, please make them (in a new thread), but also, Keted, please try to build consensus before making controversial edits. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:24, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

We don't need to start a new thread. Just stop stonewalling this one. --John (talk) 05:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 April 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add middle initial to Sasha Obama's full name. It should read "Natasha M. Obama" This is based on the recent Obama tax return available at http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/complete_return_president_obama_2012.pdf Jamccull (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Far too trivial to care about. Tarc (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Btw, it is amazing how looks like a tax return form in the US, they assume that everybody is retarded. 91.83.10.105 (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Boston terrorist attack

Should be included: "The blasts threw people to the ground, killing two and injuring dozens. Hospitals reported at least 110 people being treated, at least eight of them in critical condition and 14 in serious condition. At least eight of the patients are children. "Any responsible individuals, any responsible groups, will feel the full weight of justice," President Barack Obama vowed."

and probably my own trivial comment: This is the first terrorist attack in US territory since 911.

ref. http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/15/us/boston-marathon-explosions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 I hope that Obama fans won't hide/color out this main news. 91.83.194.227 (talk) 23:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the attack is yet relevant enough to Obama himself to warrant inclusion in this article. --Philpill691 (talk) 23:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Obama didn't agree with you, as he has given a news conference about this. But I'm not surprised, this is the general route, first you have said, that war in Libya or the Newtown massacre is not releted to Obama, and see the current article! Both of them are included. Please write the history and not a formal press release from White House. 91.83.194.227 (talk) 23:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Presidents always speak to the public following tragedies, that doesn't make the event automatically relevant to the president's biography. Calm down, this thing only happened a few hours ago. This is one area where crowd-sourcing is as its piss-poor worst; dealing with current events and breaking news. Tarc (talk) 23:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

"tragedy" no, this is a terrorist attack, as even FBI is treating the bombings as a terrorist attack. Tragedy is when you can't buy your favourite milk in shop. 91.83.194.227 (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

So was the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt, but that isn't mentioned in this article either. We'll see how it unfolds over the next few days, if it rises to a Sandy Hook-like level of importance then it'd be a candidate for inclusion. For right now, it shouldn't go in. Tarc (talk) 00:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

It is interesting how you are trying to lower the significance of a major terrorist attack. What you are refering to was a failed attack, with 0 deaths, 0 injuries. In the current case multiple bombs exploded, we have 3 deads (cnn reported), and 138+ injuries, two different category. 91.83.194.227 (talk) 01:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not actually doing anything of the sort; what I am doing is utilizing some editorial discretion regarding recent events, something that an obviously logged-out and/or banned user (as a fluent English speaker editing from a Hungarian ISP at 3:15am local time is a bit of an imagination-stretcher) knows little about. Are we done here? Tarc (talk) 01:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attack! 91.83.194.227 (talk) 01:39, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

We're done. WP:Recentism is clearly the relevant concept here. NickCT (talk) 02:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that enough time spent to declare that this terrorist attack was significant, so it should be included in the main article. 91.83.184.187 (talk) 19:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no one agrees with you. Tarc (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

You are right, but so far this is not a large pool, only one opinion. 91.83.184.187 (talk) 19:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Please explain how it is biographically significant to Barack Obama? -- Scjessey (talk) 22:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Too soon to know whether this should be included or how it should be included. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't be included which has already been explained with good reasons. And I'm pretty sure most of you know this IP from Hungary is a a long term and persistent "contributor" here, and seems hell-bent on trying to blame Obama for everything with these "nominations". Troll much? --85.210.102.71 (talk) 15:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

There was a larger pool requested so I say. No, it should not be included in the article. For several reasons stated above. NathanWubs (talk) 16:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why it is relevant my nationality, my main goal is to improve the wikipedia as history progress, and not to white wash the article. Furthermore on this article several of my minor/major suggestions has been accepted, and modified by registered user. But look at the userpage of Tarc, he/she is a registered user but you can know nowthing about him/her if you read his/her userpage. 91.83.95.198 (talk) 22:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Please make an account instead of switching ips. After all you will be looked upon as a sockpuppet, which you already know is not allowed on wikipedia. NathanWubs (talk) 17:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you give a reference that Misplaced Pages blocks the unregistered users to suggest edit(s) ? "instead of switching ips" you are totally wrong, I'm not switching manually the IP addresses, I have dynamic IP (like 99% of the users where I live), and only the internet provider's router decide when to request a new IP. BTW today is the 5th day that cnn is roughly continuously on breaking news, just proving that it is not a minor local event, Obama visited Boston. 91.82.0.138 (talk) 18:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

None of the side discussion really matters. I think we've got consensus that it's premature to add anything to the article because it's a developing story and we don't know how significant this will turn out to be to the President's biography. We can revisit this several days or weeks, by which time we'll know how much if at all this is relevant. Although I cannot speak for editors of other articles, there must be an article about Obama's second term and there's certainly an article about the bombing. Obama's visit to Boston and statements made there are probably worth a brief mention in those articles, long before we think about that here. Why don't we just mark this discussion as concluded for now, but left open to re-start as new information emerges. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Right now, it's better to add that kind of info into the Boston Marathon bombing article. It will probably end up being mentioned here, and/or more likely the Presidency article. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 19:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Wikidemon's position on this, per WP:RECENT. Let's give it some time and see how the rest of the story unfolds before we start rewriting the biographies of people not even directly related to the incident. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 20:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

What would you rewrite? Boston bombings not mentioned in the current article. This type of modification called addition of a new topic, probably in domestic policy. 91.82.0.138 (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Looks like you're not getting the point. The proposed addition is a glowing example of recentism. It is not appropriate to this article at this time. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

FAQ

The article doesn't have a word of criticism or controversy, and going by the above discussion, that's not going to change. The closest it gets is this (which is piss-poor): Some Representatives questioned whether Obama had the constitutional authority to order military action in addition to questioning its cost, structure and aftermath. Seriously, out of the entire article, that's all there is. As such, I made this edit to the FAQ page. As it's not possible to ask for less criticism/controversy (let alone much less), my edit should stay because the frequently asked questions page shouldn't ask questions that won't come up. Keted6 (talk) 21:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The FAQ sums up the editors' collective opinion on the subject, and I pretty much agree with it so there's not much point repeating the argument. Regarding your specific attempt to change the FAQ, what that particular FAQ is saying is not that we should hold the line on adding more criticism, but rather that the whole question of how much or how little criticism (or negative material) the article contains is the wrong way to go about editing an encyclopedia biography. Wikidemon (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you should add that to the FAQ if you think that's the point. The FAQ is to show frequently asked questions (fails, as nobody asks for much less criticism/controversy) and it's to try and pre-empt any arguments that will be made that are in vain, which it fails again because nobody will ask in the future (judging by the current state of affairs) for much less criticism/controversy. Keted6 (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of the merits of your specific edit, Keted, it is prudent to seek consensus on the talk page before making potentially controversial edits to an article's FAQ. Please do not make bold or pointy edits to the FAQ, as that goes against the principle of consensus building. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:17, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Keted - I have no knowledge of your political position, so this isn't specifically about you, but you must appreciate that a lot of requests for negative content about political figures come from political opponents, wanting to use Misplaced Pages as they would a political forum. Misplaced Pages is not the place for that and we must guard very carefully against it. Arguments about "equal" amounts of criticism can very quickly be seen as simply that sort of political game. Another issue is that this article is about Obama, the person. It's his biography here on Misplaced Pages. Issues relating to his Presidency belong at Presidency of Barack Obama. HiLo48 (talk) 08:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is asking for an equal amount of criticism to praise, just that some criticism be included, as there is a lot to choose from. There's not as much as some presidents, but there's more than others. Following on from that, I have yet to see an article about a president that has nothing negative in it. This article appears to be unique in that regard. Anyway... until there is sufficient criticism/controversy in the article (at the moment there's none, to reiterate) the FAQ shouldn't make out as if people ask for less criticism/controversy when that doesn't and cannot happen. Keted6 (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Drones

I propose we include neutral and proportionate mention of the drone attacks, sourced to the many reliable sources previously proposed. I also propose we update the Afghanistan section, work which has been outstanding for nine months now. --John (talk) 09:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, what's your idea of "neutral and proportionate mention of the drone attacks"? To me, they're just another military tool. The USA, as the world's single superpower, has more military tools of different types than anybody else. We all know that. We don't mention any other military devices here. What's special about the drones? (I ask that question seriously.)

The same applies to the Afghanistan stuff. What wording would you propose? HiLo48 (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I think this stuff needs to be worked out at Presidency of Barack Obama first, and then (and only then) summarized here in accordance with summary style and in the appropriate weight. This approach is the only way to ensure such a complex topic is given the attention is deserves. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

We can do both, but there really is not that much mainstream coverage of the war in Afghanistan or drone attacks, relatively speaking. So any additions should be succinct and neutral, in proportion to the rest of the article mentions. Using drones to target enemies in a war is a relatively new technology, that are designed to lower casualties for American soldiers and civilians. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 14:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that people are conflating the "kill list" narrative with the use of drones, even though the two are actually separate issues. That is why all the silly arm-waving and demands need to give way to proper discussion about the issues in the appropriate forum. I'm going to oppose any inclusion of this stuff until I see it in Presidency of Barack Obama, because if it isn't notable enough to include in an article on Obama's presidency, it certainly isn't going to be notable enough to include in an article on Obama's biography. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Scjessey, you are incorrect to oppose edits to this article based on what is missing from other articles. your and others editors opinions/voting of a facts significance is irrelevant, the frequency of RS is the determining factor. much of the material in this article appears in print far less: Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be. Obama's kill list (yes kill list and Obama are always connected in the RS) has major media coverage in several countries. as to this not being an important part of someone's life, balderdash, nothing could be more germane than PERSONALLY deciding to take the life of another person. Darkstar1st (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I think we're beginning to see the crux of the problem...or, your problem, that is, in that you place an inordinate value on "the to take the life of another person". The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces, i.e. those people who serve our country valiantly, trained to take a person's life if the situation arises. We still have this little thing called a War on Terror that is ongoing y'know, and in a war, people die. There's really nothing untowards about any of this, the only new wrinkle is president himself issuing the final "go order" rather than it being left to one of the Joint Chiefs or a general in the field. It's just a matter of degrees, and all in all not terribly significant other than to those that thought electing a Democratic president meant we were going to shoot the bad guys with rainbows and puppy kisses. Tarc (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That's all irrelevant though. The Kill List has received sufficient coverage to warrant inclusion. Whether or not the large amount of media attention on the Kill List is justified shouldn't make a difference to it's inclusion. Keted6 (talk) 16:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I believe the point sailed over your head. The point is that it is a routine aspect of the war on terror. Just being "in the news" is not in itself a sufficient criteria to warrant inclusion, especially to a personal biography article. There has always been someone to make the call to carry out a kill-not-capture op, there's nothing especially remarkable about the president wanting it to trickle up to him. It may be relevant to the presidency, i.e. something to cover at the foreign policy or war section of Presidency of Barack Obama, but the overall point here is it isn't directly relevant to Obama himself. Tarc (talk) 16:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how much coverage there is if it isn't germane. This is the biography, and the "kill list" and/or drone program aren't biographically significant at this time. There's massive coverage all over the internet about the Puppy Bowl, but that isn't germane to Obama's biography either. And yes, I know that is a ridiculous example, but I'm tired of all the bullshit. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, how does your dismissal of this as just "routine" not count at original research? We should not be deciding what is and is not remarkable when the rest of the world, as shown through RS, say it is remarkable. It'd be one thing if this was a short lived or passing controversy with little coverage, but it is not. What you are saying, if properly sourced, could be added as part of a legal argument in defense of the president's actions, but it does not dismiss that the world IS treating this as not routine, and we here at Misplaced Pages do not get to define the world. That you believe this not to be far out of normal presidential power is your opinion, but the rest of the world, as shown by RS, is treating this as something new and a "big deal." Scjessey, what is your standard for biographically significant? Your puppy bowl example, frankly it borders on insulting to bring it up. That coverage does not have anything to do with the president and is not an action of the president. Please treat other editors with respect and realism if you wish to be in return. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I did say it was a "ridiculous example". Something that is "biographically significant" speaks for itself. Has it had a significant effect on Obama's life, or is it a key component of Obama's life story? No? Then it doesn't belong. A possible loophole, however, is if it becomes very significant to Obama's presidency. In which case, it will become a big part of Presidency of Barack Obama and it will form part of the summary of that article that we have in this one. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with OuroborosCobra. I think we are seeing fatigue among some of the defenders of the poor state of the article. Hint: it's ok to take a break and get on with something else if you're tired of preventing improvement here. It must be exhausting, all that stonewalling. It's a wiki, and other people have the right to edit it. Your OR, and your snippy comments and bad faith, aren't helpful or desired here. --John (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds very impressive, John, but I've become familiar enough with your modus operandi to simply ignore it. The article does indeed need improvement, but the proposal here is the exact opposite of improvement. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

No, that's not ignoring it. Ignoring it, is actually not posting when you have nothing whatsoever to add. Try it, you'll find it rather refreshing. --John (talk) 17:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, the delicious irony of your last comment! -- Scjessey (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Common sense isn't original research, I'm afraid. Every word, utterance, and gesture of the US President is covered by a reliable source day in and day out. Pardoning the presidential turkey, what he buys the First Lady for Christmas, and what is on the White House Easter Dinner table are all found in many reliable sources. Having the buck stop one notch up the ladder regarding kill lists is just...shrug. Tarc (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not common sense, that's why it's original research. To say that the coverage the Kill List receives is just above that of food on the Easter Dinner table is ridiculous. It receives much more coverage than some of what is already in the article, such as On September 30, 2009, the Obama administration proposed new regulations on power plants, factories and oil refineries in an attempt to limit greenhouse gas emissions and to curb global warming. Keted6 (talk) 19:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

@Tarc: That's true, to some extent. It is an editorial decision. However, especially if we have pretensions to keeping this an FA, we cannot ignore the widespread and significant coverage of the drone attacks (note I am not bringing up "kill lists" here, that was your suggestion). This coverage goes right across the political spectrum and is long term. My other proposal was to update the Afghanistan section; when I introduced the "update" tag in July 2012 I must admit I did not foresee it still being there nine months (and one election) later. What's that about? --John (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between relevance to the president personally and relevance to the office of the presidency, though. Presidency of Barack Obama#Overseas Contingency Operation is looking pretty sparse at the moment, and could probably benefit from some expanded drone coverage. Tarc (talk) 20:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, reviewing a list of names and deciding which die is absolutely relevant to any man. the argument that every leader does the same but in secret is irrelevant, Obama is the only blp on wp with a kill list. that alone should merit inclusion. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

It's your opinion, and that carries no special weight here. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

prove me wrong, which other blp has a kill list? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

@John: Can you please suggest some text? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Really, Darkstar? The only BLP on WP with a kill list? You really believe that? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

afg plz and yes i do, which other blp on wp has a kill list? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, though unless you have evidence to back up your suggestion that no other living person on Misplaced Pages has or ever had a kill list a personal opinion of that sort would likely not be given much if any consideration.--174.93.164.125 (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

no, it is a fact. search kill list in tools, nothing on wp will match that term, unlike several mainstream publishers on several continents who specifically mention Obama's kill list. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, we started with a polite request for discussion about what we can write about drones and Afghanistan, and we've ended up at the "kill list", yet again. There's a huge problem on display there. Crappy discussion behaviour, sidetracking yet again, plus some people obsessed with the "kill list". So, if we must discuss that, my perspective is that every major power throughout history would have had a kill list. Reading a bit of history makes that obvious. Those heads rolling around on the floor in the Tower of London and around the Guillotine in Paris come immediately to mind, and that's just my European historical bias on display while eating my breakfast. There will be hundreds more examples in history. The big development surrounding the USA's list in Obama's time is that it's become more public, and the President, the popularly elected guy, has taken responsibility for it rather than leaving it in the hands of unknown, unelected military commanders. This is all surely a very good development. I can't see how it helps those who want more negatives about Obama in the article at all. HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Mulitple massacres in US

The most recent one is: http://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-man-kills-girlfriend-shooting-spree-seattle/story?id=19015078#.UXb9ZaKeNnx

I would propose to open a new section in domestic policy to list some of the massacres happened under Obama administration. For me it seems that there are too much and these are too deadly. 91.82.29.159 (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The Sandy Hook incident is mentioned at Presidency of Barack Obama#Gun control. If you would like to add more about other such incidents, perhaps that would be the best place to start. This is the BLP of Barack Obama, the person, and often only summarizes what is at the Presidency article, due to WP:WEIGHT concerns. That, and the fact that Barack Obama (the person) was not involved (as far as I can tell) in this incident, so it's not really appropriate for inclusion here at all. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 21:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

"Kill list"

My suggested wording...

"President Obama gained considerable kudos for being the first modern, elected, world leader to publicly acknowledge that his country has a "kill list", and to take full responsibility for who was on it."

HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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