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You're invited: Ada Lovelace, STEM women edit-a-thon at Harvard

U.S. Ada Lovelace Day 2012 edit-a-thon, Harvard University - You are invited!

Now in its fourth year, Ada Lovelace Day is an international celebration of women in science, technology, engineering, mathematics (STEM), and related fields. Participants from around New England are invited to gather together at Harvard Law School to edit and create Misplaced Pages entries on women who have made significant contributions to the STEM fields. Register to attend or sign up to participate remotely - visit this page to do either. 00:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Orgastic potency

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Please comment on Talk:Autopsy images of Ngatikaura Ngati

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Please comment on Talk:Executive Order 9066

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Please comment on Talk:Meša Selimović

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Please comment on Talk:Rape and pregnancy controversies in the 2012 United States elections

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re 'Misplaced Pages:Ambiguous Biographical Classifications' in your sandbox

(The talk page seems to relate to something else - so I'm commenting here instead.)

This seems a very sensible approach to the problem. A couple of points come to mind:

I'm not sure that nationality is generally ambiguous - it is a matter of legal status. Obviously there are cases where it may be - e.g. when countries break up etc - but often the problem is actually one resulting from confusion of ethnicity and nationality, as in the 'Was X Polish or Russian' type arguments - it was entirely possible for instance to be ethnically Polish even while there was no Polish state.

I think the examples in the 'self-identification' section might be improved - I'd not take an assertion from a politician that he/she was 'moderate' as necessarily sufficient grounds to describe them as such - and in fact I'm not sure we should be making such statements in Misplaced Pages's voice at all. Moderate compared to what? Someone who's politics might be moderate in the US say might well be seen as right-wing in parts of Europe - and we are writing for an international audience.

'Descent' is a tricky one - we all have multiple ancestors, often of different heritages, and there is sometimes a tendency to imply that because one heritage can be sourced, it is the only one, which may be entirely misleading. I'm not quite sure what the solution is here though.

AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump - Thanks for comments. Appreciated.

re "nationality is generally ambiguous" - Good point. The "nationality" question has caused some problem in the past. I think some confusion might be arising here between "nationality" and "national identity". If you look at a simple definition for nationality, I think "nationality" may fairly be taken to mean, and is often taken to mean "national identity". So for instance, "John is Russian" may be interpreted to mean "John holds Russian citizenship" or it may mean "John was born in Russia to Russian parents, speaks Russian, speaks English with a heavy Russian accent, loves Borscht, and is culturally Russian". After having been in a couple arguments with folks about whether Joe Blow is Canadian or Swiss or Swahili, I can tell you that those arguments feel very much like the "Is Johnny Papist really a Catholic?" debates.

Perhaps a solution here would be to simply say "National Identity", rather than "Nationality". Does that float your boat? Worth noting though, that saying "He is Polish", can similarly be taken to be a statement about someone's "nationality" or their "national identity".

re "the examples in the 'self-identification' section might be improved" - Take a swing at it! re "Moderate compared to what?" - I guess compared to other US politicians? I guess, what I'm really trying to say is that Arlen Specter doesn't get to decide whether he is "moderate", and some random RS doesn't get to decide whether he is "moderate", but if you can show that BOTH Arlen Specter AND an RS think Specter's moderate, then it's fair to say he's moderate. In other words basic verifiability or self-identification aren't alone enough, but together they're OK.

If you agree with the idea, but just don't like the example, please change the example. I think there are 1,000 possible other ones we could put in. It be nice if we had some which covered "political orientation" though. I take your point about it being a matter of perspective, but really, isn't that true for all the categories we're discussing (i.e. sexual orientations, religious affiliation, etc)?

re "'Descent' is a tricky one" - So the reason I put this in, is because a number of "Is McClearly really Irish?" debates I've been in have settled with a resolution that is something like "You can say McClearly is of Irish decent, but not that he's Irish". I've often felt those are fair conclusions. It's always struck me as a far more vague and less controversial thing to say someone is of such-and-such heritage. re "we all have multiple ancestors" - Ok. But I'm not sure what the issue is here. I mean, if I can find a reference for John Q Public's mom being Polish, but can't find a reference for the fact his dad if Swedish, would you really take issue with someone categorizing John Q as "from Irish decent"? Perhaps I'm not getting the point.

P.S. Please feel free to be WP:BOLD in my sandbox. I think our thinking here is about as close to complete consensus as you can get.

P.S.S. I like your earlier "what Misplaced Pages is not" suggestion. I was a little concerned that a small subsection of "What Misplaced Pages is Not" might not fully encapsulate the idea we're trying to get across.

Always appreciative of cooperative brainstorming. NickCT (talk) 19:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Fringe theories

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Riin Tamm

I would support a move to deletion of this article. Amazing how it got onto the front page, with photo! Great CV pushing, mind... David (talk) 19:45, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Appreciate the feedback. Article is now nominated for deletion. NickCT (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Infobox musical artist

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Speedy Deletion of Dominion Tire Plant

Hi Nick, I've responded to your flag for speedy deletion of the Dominion Tire Plant article on its talk page.ARMY101 (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Re Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Categorization of persons

The link you've posted to your sandbox will only work for you - I suggest you replace it with User:NickCT/sandbox.

I agree with your suggestions (bar minor details) but frankly, I don't think there is an icecream's chance in hell of getting them approved by the Misplaced Pages community. I suspect that an approach to the WMF may be necessary before anything further is done - especially when we appear to have admins who argue that the WMF's recommendations regarding BLP policy should be ignored. Of course, it is entirely possible that at some point, the question of where all this 'categorisation' fits in within information privacy law, and with regard to EU contributors in particular the Data Protection Directive and the relevant national laws may become a factor. I've seen people claim that 'it doesn't apply to Misplaced Pages', but I'm not entirely convinced - and I certainly wouldn't take the word of anyone but a lawyer specialising in the field that it doesn't, given its broad scope. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note about the link. Careful you don't step into Misplaced Pages:No legal threats with data protection thing. With a little lobbying, we may be able to get some policy changes, no? I'd say we have more than a snowball's chance in hell. More like a snowman's chance in hell...... NickCT (talk) 15:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Pointing out that data protection laws exist and may possibly be applicable isn't remotely a legal threat. As for 'lobbying', I'm not sure who you are proposing to contact - any policy change will have to come about through open discussion, unless the WMF steps in. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggesting content on WP is in contravention to some law has the odor of a legal threat........ Re 'lobbying' - Andy, you and I clearly feel sorta similarly on this issue. We aren't alone. A whole bunch of people have suggested policy changes along the lines that we're discussing. I've seen at least a couple dozen editors talk about the importance of "self-identification". I think an organizing effort might help these voices be heard a little more clearly. NickCT (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Abe Vigoda

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship

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RfC input needed

Hi. Input is needed on a an RfC. You were randomly selected from the WP:FRS list of editors willing to help with RfCs. If you have a moment, your help would be appreciated at the RfC about the Nobel Prize. Cheers. --Noleander (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Lee Hsien Loong

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Recent issue related to the Flag of Western Sahara

Hello,

Recently, a major change was made on the article Flag of Western Sahara, by merging it with Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic .

Since you participated to the RfC discussion on Talk:Flag_of_Western_Sahara, you might be interested by a related discussion on ANI or, at least, you might be interested in participating to the recently launched discussion on Talk:Flag of Western Sahara.

Regards,
--Omar-toons (talk) 08:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

notification about blp issues

Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Misplaced Pages about living persons, as you did to Charlize Theron. Thank you. Yworo (talk) 20:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship

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Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic#Move?

There's a discussion you might be interested in at Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_the_Sahrawi_Arab_Democratic_Republic#Move?. I'm telling you this because you were involved in Talk:Flag_of_Western_Sahara#Merger proposal and/or Talk:Flag_of_Western_Sahara#UNMERGING_ARTICLES. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:General sanctions

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion

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Birth Data for Shrii Shrii Anandamurti

I have altered the birth data from Vaisakhi Purnima 1921 to 1922. This is correct as has been confirmed by His own family although many books and references give 1921. His sister was born in November 1920 and she was 18 months older than Him. ---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marciacst (talk • contribs) 08:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you provide a reference or citation for him being born in 1922? Can you point to a book or article that states that this is the case? NickCT (talk) 00:30, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 10

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Hi NickCT, Re: DPL bot is sick: Did you carefully read the Disambiguation link notification above? A diff like the one from Directed-energy weapon clearly shows that you inserted the links to ABC with the references in the articles listed above. (I fixed them, see here). If you need more help (next time) let me know. Cheers LittleWink (talk) 17:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Woops! I wasn't looking at the references. I see it now. ABC as in ABC news. Man I feel silly for not seeing that. NickCT (talk) 18:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

No worries. That can happen to anyone, especially with a disambiguation like ABC. Greetings LittleWink (talk) 18:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Joseph P. Moorer

Surely this must have been a mistake if you read the article? – Connormah (talk) 03:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Self reverted. I'm really not sure what the rules are surrounding notability of military folks. Does being a vice admiral automatically make you notable? I mean, I realize that quite a high ranking position, but it doesn't look like he is noted for anything other than simply holding the position. NickCT (talk) 03:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Believe he should pass per WP:MILPEOPLE - vice admiral is a general officer level one below the four star rank, and United States Naval Forces Europe is a major command (you will see that almost all of the other commanders of it were full admirals). – Connormah (talk) 03:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I guess you're specifically referring to "3. Held a rank considered to be a flag, general or air officer, or their historical equivalents; or". Ok. That's fine. Honestly, I know little about military ranking, or the rules surrounding military notability. I'm willing to take your word for it. You have my apologies for a hasty deletion request. NickCT (talk) 03:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem, we all have these moments. I would expand if I had the time, and there should be sources, however it will probably be quite the task to pick apart the sources on him from those on his brother, Thomas, who was the Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the JCS at one point - the two top ranks in the Navy and Armed Forces respectively. Anyways, keep up the good work, I've seen a lot of good things from you at AIV in the recent months! – Connormah (talk) 03:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Well thanks! Same to you. NickCT (talk) 03:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Not vandalism

I'm afraid that your recent use of rollback on Ann Arbor Public Schools was not justified, nor was your warning to the IP editor. Please be more careful. Toddst1 (talk) 04:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The IP was inserting external links into the article in a manner that didn't appear appropriate for the page. I did an "edit test" revert, which I sorta think of as a "soft" vandalism reversion.

Looking back on it, I probably could have just reverted with a note rather than a warning to the IP. NickCT (talk) 11:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

A7 and schools

Hi Nick. Just letting you know I declined the CSD tag you placed on Marysville Middle School - A7 specifically excludes schools (and other educational institutions) from its potential targets. Cheers, Yunshui 雲‍水 07:38, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for catching that.

I've proposed to delete. Seems to me that a single line and a external does not an article make.

That said though, I'm conscience that WP has always had an inclusionist bias towards schools. Never really been a fan of this policy. NickCT (talk) 11:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Me neither, if I'm honest - I've never seen why schools should get a free pass on deletion. But, as Bruce Hornsby once put it: "that's just the way it is..." Yunshui 雲‍水 12:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Donor Trust

I have replied on the talk page. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I have added additional information on climate change denial to the lead, per your point on the talk page, and begun clarifying the verbiage. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I begin to feel badly treated. BRD requires discussion. Eliminating material and references without discussion is inappropriate. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't eliminate material without discussion. You added without discuss. Give me one second. I'm putting some of your material back in! NickCT (talk) 14:37, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah, no problems. I was editing too fast. Sorry. I'll leave the article alone for awhile to see how it goes. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:34, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:George Maharis

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AF447

Re "only slightly less RS", you seem to have read that as "only slightly fewer RS", which was not my intent. I meant that FlightGlobal and Aviation Week are highly credible publishers whom we can treat as being reliable on the topic of aviation. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm still a little confused by your point. Are you suggesting that the 2 RS you've offered are similar in weight to the "literally hundreds" of RS I pointed to? NickCT (talk) 23:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Pan Am 1736/KLM 4805 (Tenerife Airport disaster)

Nick, you asked me to provide a citation. It's in the sources already cited for the CVR transcript. The original Spanish report does not include the obscenities. However, it does mention "natural expressions" of shock and horror on the Pan Am flight deck upon sighting KLM 4805. However, the PBS source that is also cited does include the last statements from the Pan Am cockpit. Another source, if you want one, is this book. Bragg repeatedly said in interviews for various documentaries that he yelled, "Get off! Get off! Get off!" to Grubbs when he saw the KLM. I restored the edit, and added an additional citation. Thank you. Sacxpert (talk) 02:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail

Hello NickCT! Have you received an email from me? I sent you an email through the Misplaced Pages interface on May 4 regarding an RfC about the infobox issue in the Air France Flight 447 article. If not, I can re-send it to your Yahoo address. I would like you to respond to my email. Thanks in advance, HeyMid (contribs) 22:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey mate,

Sorry for a late response.

I'll start to work up a quick draft. Hold for further details. NickCT (talk) 14:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

just a point

I'm not sure if you've followed *all* of the discussions, but the brouhaha over Category:American novelists has nothing (or little) to do with gender. It has to do with whether Category:American novelists can be diffused into by-century cats like Category:20th-century American novelists, Category:21st-century American novelists, and so on, or whether everyone should remain in the parent. So, essentially the question is about whether Category:20th-century American novelists should be a diffusing category or not. It is not about unequal treatment of women/men - they are being treated equally for now... --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey Obi-Wan Kenobi. I've been partially following the brouhaha, but haven't delved too deeply into it. My understanding is that the debate started when someone complained that female authors seemed to be getting relegated to the less prestigious "American Female Novelists" rather than staying in what was perceived to be a more prestigious "American Novelists" category. I guess this 20th/21st century debate is an evolution of the former one?

There was a good NPR piece on the gender debate.

Regardless, thanks for your perspective on the issue. I'm not super interested in getting wrapped up in this conversation. This is one of those subjects which I think is doomed to be an endless wikidrama. NickCT (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Correct, yes, it's an evolution - sorry I should have pointed that out. The gender thing was dealt with already (it never should have happened in the first place) - but now there is a move to empty the parent cat entirely and put everyone into the by-century cats (I happen to agree) - so anyway, just wanted to clarify that this particular issue is no longer about gender, but around whether people get a special "tag" at the bottom of their profile that says "American novelist" or whether that tag says "20th-century American novelist". Really a major wikidrama over very little at this point...technically it's about the words "20th-century" or "19th-century" vs "". Anyway, I don't even know why I'm so involved, and your position may indeed be wise :)--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:24, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I think I follow what you're saying.

Out of curiosity, was there a really clear consensus somewhere that the gender category thing was wrong? Can you provide a link? And if there was a really clear ruling why the heck is Category:American_women_novelists still on Amanda Filipacchi? Seems like an obvious WP:SUBCAT violation.

re "Anyway, I don't even know why I'm so involved" - Well hey, a little Wikidrama is sorta fun now and then, no? I find the gender debate sorta interesting b/c I've always had a strong opinion on the slightly broader debate surrounding categorizing/listing biographies by gender/race/ethnicity/religious affiliation/sexual orientation.

I'm sorta curious about this "diffusing" issue, but I'm not really well acquainted enough with categorizing to have a good opinion.

I'm constantly amused by the rancor over categorization issues. I can't imagine many readers actually care about/use categorization all the much. NickCT (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

What, praytell, is your strong opinion? :)

The most recent consensus came from here Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_April_24#Category:American_women_novelists (don't bother reading unless you are sitting down and have nothing to do for a few hours...) and it said it is ok to have such a gendered category (since it is provably a topic of interest and scholarship), but the members should be in the parent as well. This wasn't really news, as WP:EGRS has always been stated this way, to avoid ghettoization. So for now, the community has still reconfirmed that it's ok to have gendered sub-cats, but those sub-cats should be non-diffusing.

Now, the tricky thing in this case is, the community didn't weigh in on whether it was ok to diffuse Category:American novelists to non-gendered cats after the fact. Some people read the consensus to say "all American women novelists should *always* be in the parent cat forever more", but that has never been the case- many American women novelists have never been in the parent, as they were also in non-gendered sub-categories like Category:American romantic fiction writers or whatever - even today, there are ~3000 novelists which aren't in the parent, and never were. If you have a special rule that if you're a woman, you automatically end up in the parent, then you have to do the same for the men, and now everyone is in the parent. I personally think this is an exaggeration and a misreading of the consensus. Now, they're launching an RFC over this silly issue, instead of dealing with the real issue with our categories today, which is continued, widespread ghettoization.

In general, non-diffusing just means that if you're in a subcat, you should also be in the parent. Most cats are diffusing, OTOH, by default, which means if an article is in Category:Paris, it shouldn't be in Category:France as well. The thing that trips people up is that certain types of cats, especially those around sexuality/religion/ethnicity, should be non-diffusing. When people forget this, nasty articles get written. It is also slightly tricky though, in that a category can be diffusing to one parent, and non-diffusing on another. For example, Category:American women novelists is non-diffusing on Category:American novelists, but it *is* diffusing on Category:American women writers.

With the writers tree specifically, you also end up with an even more subtle issue of, partial-diffusion-by-characteristic - I'm not even sure if that's a thing - but let me give you an example. Bill is an essayist and novelist, and Category:American novelists diffuses Category:American writers (in other words, if you're just a novelist, you don't need to remain in Category:American writers. But Bill is a complex beast, and if we just put him in Category:American novelists, we shouldn't right away *remove* him from Category:American writers, as we've only diffused on *one* of his characteristics - we need to also add Category:American essayists, so as a fully diffuse all aspects by which we categorize. In some cases, it's not possible to do so - so the person has to remain in the category regardless. That's why people use the term "fully diffusing" sometimes, or "fully diffusable", meaning that no matter what, you have a set of categories to which everyone can be placed. Things like "X by century" or "X by state" are fully diffusing - but "Novelists by genre" is not fully diffusing, as we don't have categories for all novelist genres, and some novelists are just novelists. Anyway, it's a messy messy world. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks for an in-depth perspective. Interesting ideas. Frankly this diffusing/non-diffusing shenenigans seems to lie in clear and obvious contradiction to WP:SUBCAT. I don't like that. Subcat exists for a good reason. I understand the desire to avoid ghettoization, but I feel like the solution applied by WP:EGRS leads to some unholy complication (i.e. the "messy world" you refer to). A good example of someone trying to patch a problem, and creating several problems in the process.

Frankly, my initial impression is that we should just backtrack and reaffirm WP:SUBCAT as the guiding principle. Ghettoization is surely better than this silly debate.

Awww well. Don't tell me any more. I don't want to sink any further in this debate. NickCT (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I see your point - and I don't mean to ignore your last sentence but I had to respond... :) I agree, it does create an unholy mess. If you want to read about how messy it can get (and have a lot of free time), check out this piece I wrote: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_132#On_structural_and_categorical_sexism which gets into some of the subtleties and attempts to define "sexism", (if it exists), and how do we spot it? In the general case, it's actually quite complex. I even created a quiz, where you can try your hand at categorization in a non-sexist way. To date, everyone has failed. Nonetheless, I've recently come around to the idea of non-diffusing categories, based on a completely different tree: Category:Presidents of the United States. Now this cat has a subcat, Category:United States presidents who died while in office. It makes no sense to me, to have John_F._Kennedy in that sub-cat, but *not* in the parent. Thus, Category:United States presidents who died while in office must be non-diffusing (and once you accept one cat can be non-diffusing, you must therefore accept that other cats can as well)

In the same way, it also doesn't make sense to say a female novelist is also not a novelist, and the result (if you remove all women, and all african-americans and asian-americans and native-americans and so on) is a category full of white men - which is problematic (and leads to NY times articles)

There is an alternative to non-diffusion here, which is to make all of the gendered/sexuality/etc categories "fully diffusing", but that would mean creating Category:European-American novelists and Category:Heterosexual novelists to offset the other ethnic/sexuality cats, and those cats would never survive, because people would say "Heterosexual novelists is not a notable subject of study - kill it with fire!"

In a few cases, we have been able to fully diffuse things like the Category:Actors tree, which is (mostly) split by gender at the top (at least, it was). We still need to grapple with people who are neither male nor female (see Category:Gender.

Thus, while complex and messy, I do now believe that non-diffusion of G/E/R/S cats in general, given our current category system, is the only way to go, and that non-diffusing categories as an exception to WP:SUBCAT, applied rarely, are ok. The big novelists debate going on now really comes down to whether Category:20th-century American novelists and its siblings can diffuse or not - I am obviously on the side that they should, but the protectors-of-the-novelist think not, as it will remove the sacred Category:American novelists talisman from the bottom of pages like Ernest Hemingway and he will be instead a Category:20th-century American novelists, which is abhorrent to some.

A better way is category intersects, which I've described and prototyped here: Wikipedia_talk:Category_intersection#A_working_category_intersection_today - I'd welcome your thoughts on that too, but I also can see you've fallen far enough down the rabbit hole so maybe you should get back to something important, like, editing articles or something :) cheers, --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)