Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:35, 14 May 2013

US-centric

Shouldn't your auto articles really be titled US rather than American? There would be no problem using "American" after the first sentence but I am fairly sure that WP:MOS says somewhere that "America"/"American" should be qualified since, of course, America is a much bigger place than just the US. I have the feeling that it might be one of the exceptions to the "adopt common usage" paradigm. One of your stalkers will probably correct me! - Sitush (talk) 06:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure how MOS falls on this. I can't help but be at least somewhat US-centric in my thinking (our culture rather demands it), so it sounds odd to call it US instead of American in this context to my ears. Lets see what the stalkers say, or if need be, I have a couple of people I call for MOS issues. I did ping User:DGG on this, he is my go-to for MOS issues. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 07:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Special:PrefixIndex/American is worth a look as well. I did see in American ethnicity: Declaring "American" ancestry is most common among Southerners. so maybe my red neck is showing ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 08:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Given the vastness of that search (and my lazyness) I only checked the first three pages, but much of those are proper nouns, and American is the proper usage. I would be interested to hear what DGG has to say, perhaps 1950s Automobile culture in the United States? --kelapstick 09:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
    • You're thinking of the old article :) This new one would be US automotive manufacturing in the 1950s (from American automotive manufacturing in the 1950s). Both articles would seemingly be affected. I still like "American", but I'm a 'merican. I'm already working on a 1960s article for manufacturing, and expect to submit the 50s manufacturing article for GA soon. Part of the problem is that "United Statesian" isn't a pretty phrase, so American tends to be preferred by the ear and eye. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Given the context of the article, I see nothing wrong with using "American" in this way. Intothatdarkness 13:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
      • Dennis, you've never heard of "Usonian"? :P Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
        • To be clear on one point: I'm not stuck on the article title as a whole. I think it fits, but that doesn't mean it is the most eloquent. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
          • Yes I know the one you are doing now (although the same would apply to the first one), I just couldn't come up with a decent way to say culture automobile manufacturing of this in this decade...how about 'merican cars when Happy Days takes place? Also I think it should be automobile, not automotive.--kelapstick 00:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
          • Some less tongue-in-cheek suggestions:
            • United States automobile manufacturing in the 1950s (similar to what you have above)
            • United States automobile industry in the 1950s
            • Automobile manufacturing in the United States in the 1950s
          • By titling it manufacturing it suggests it is about actually building the cars, is it about that or more about the industry (see suggestion 2, which I like best). --kelapstick 00:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
            • • I've been debating the exact same change, automotive/automobile. I'm fine with whatever the consensus is, which is why I've solicited for opinions. I just titled it what sounds most natural to me. Of course, that isn't the criteria, which is why I like getting the feedback. Of your ideas, I lean towards United States automobile industry in the 1950s, since it does cover what they did, why they did it and what helped and got in the way. I've already bought a couple of books and started sourcing an article to cover the 1960s. Not sure every decade needs one, but I'm confident I could cover the 30s-70s fairly well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• I do not know why I should be an expert on this. My personal view is that WP uses the common names of things that can be understood by English speakers internationally. There are some contexts where we must use United States: formal lists of countries, formal comparisons of different countries, anything dealing with the formal government of the United States or of its subdivisions, anything that puts the US in contrast with other nations of the Americas. Otherwise, "American" is the best word. Nobody will confuse it here. The problem is that rhetorically there is no acceptable adjective (Usonian is not standard English, but in contemporary usage more of a joke.) Similarly, we talk about the British automobile industry, not the automobile industry of Great Britain, which is too formal for ordinary use, even in an encyclopedia.

Asfor automotive, I consider that old fashioned and used only in special terms. DGG ( talk ) 03:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• • You are one of the most experienced editors on MOS type issues, on and off wiki, so I always appreciate your ability to break issues down to their basic elements, simplifying issues. Even in the rare instances I disagree with you, I always learn something in the exchange, which is why I seek your input on these issues. In this case, I agree with you on both points as I tend to get a bit too formal in titles and tend to worry about the title after the article is built, which is now. Thanks again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

    I agree with DGG, and I'd definitely rename the article American automobile manufacturing in the 1950s. Neither do I see anything wrong with using the word "American" in this context; nobody is going to be misled into believing the scope is automobile manufacturing across the whole of North and South America. Malleus Fatuorum 13:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

    • • I had renamed to American automobile industry in the 1950s before I saw your post. Sitush raised a good point that it was about the industry as a whole, not so much about the manufacturing processes (which could arguably be another article, the technology of manufacturing itself), so this is my preference. We can start a discussion on the talk page of the article and find a consensus there if someone prefers, I'm not one to labor the title as long as it is representative of the content, a rose by any other name and all that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

        Your new title looks fine to me. Malleus Fatuorum 13:41, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I have formally filed it for GA review after doing a final sweep. I'm sure there are still a number of flaws that I've missed, but I think it is sufficiently complete, clear and sourced to be considered. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion close

Ok, so my RFC got caught in the backlog of DOOOOM, and it got archived from The administrator's noticeboard before it was closed. The discussion can be found here. Could you either close it or point me in the direction of someone who has the time? Fair warning, it is long, contentious, and probably not clear-cut. Thanks in advance! Tazerdadog (talk) 02:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• Honestly, I'm not smart enough to close this. I think to properly close a discussion like this, you need someone with a more technical background, who can understand some of the nuance that would escape me. It shouldn't require an admin to close, just someone familiar enough with the topic. Dropping a neutral request at WP:AN might bring someone there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

  Ok, I will post it up there again and hope someone closes it this time.Tazerdadog (talk) 16:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Dennis! I'm baaaaaaack

Hey Hi Howdy! Wondering if you could take a look at the following: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Webber Academy. I don't know how it got there unformatted, and it just plain shouldn't be there. Wondering what is going on with the editor who nominated it after only 7 edits, too, but that is not all that important. I will work on the article a bit to get it up to the point where it is a decent stub. Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• I did find this book but not much else. And good to see you back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Farewell

I am sending this message to the users who I have closely collaborated with. I will be taking a temporary Wikibreak for at least 5-7 days to let off some steam and get myself reenergized. Some of the stress has got to me, so I think it's best if I should take a couple of days off. I also have final exams coming up as well, so I have more important things to worry about. I, however, will be here to contribute to some articles that I have worked on. Until then, farewell. With my very best and warmest regards, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• We all need a break every now and then, myself included. Go work on school, that is more important anyway, and I look forward to you coming back refreshed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Please change the header before people freak out! --Rschen7754 21:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
    • hehe, when I saw it in our new Facebook style notification system (which I like at first glance, btw) I was thinking "oh hell, time to rally the WER troops". Glad to see it wasn't quite as dramatic as the header might lead one to believe. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
      • The new system is in Facebook style? It could be Gangnam style and still I would not have known, never having got to grips with FB and nowadays having no desire to do so. I fixed a networking problem for a customer at the weekend. She was pleased - "Great, I can see the web again. Back to civilisation with Facebook." Now, if she had said "Back to civilisation and Facebook" then it would have made sense to me, but her choice of words seems oxymoronic. I'm a cynical bastard sometimes! - Sitush (talk) 06:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

        I've never seen the point of FB: "Today I'm having scrambled eggs for breakfast, tomorrow I may try them poached". Malleus Fatuorum 06:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

That sounds more like Twitter, MF. Although, I haven't logged into my Facebook in ages (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:29, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Funny, I created a Twitter account then immediately asked "why?" I didn't have a good answer so I haven't gone back. Nothing I do is that interesting, but the family does like to share pictures of our dogs and other silliness, and they prefer Facebook. If not for them, I wouldn't be there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • QFT. That comment really needs a 'Like' button. Keri (talk) 08:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

        • • • Like But on a more serious note, I check it every day or two. I several brothers and sisters who live 1000 miles away, plus my dad is in his 80s and he uploads pictures of his garden and the latest fish he caught at the lake, I do the same with pictures of barbecue and my dogs. I keep up with a few old school mates from the 70s as well. Like other people's children, it is fine in small doses. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jonaxgold

I'm sure my note is wrong, wrong template, etc--but it's the best I can do right now. Thanks! (You should see my deletion log for tonight...) Drmies (talk) 03:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• I just woke up, not coffeed up yet, but will fix it later. You know we DO have a Twinkle button for that, under ARV option. It is what I just used, then copied your stuff over. Closed. Easy peasy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

testing your new notification system ... this is only a test .. if it had been an actual emergency .. I would have YELLED.

LOL - ok ... that really did give me a chuckle. :-) (argh ... am I really getting that bad?) — Ched :  ?  15:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Us old farts have to stick together. And if you have the weather channel on in the background, and don't care that you are only wearing underwear when you get the paper, or still actually get the paper, then yes, you are old. And yes, that new change does strip down the responsibilities of Crats around here considerably. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks by the way for pointing out the script .. saw it mentioned at AN too ... but don't remember now which I saw first, but thank you buddy. — Ched :  ?  00:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Pictures for Fish Wiki

Im doing a fish-WIki project to elaborate on a Minnesota species of fish that doesn't have much written about it . i want to add a picture describing the distribution of the fish and was planning on putting the reference of the website in the reference section, but have no clue how to get the picture from the DNR website onto the wiki page. Is it even worth me trying or should i just elaborate on the subject with words? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.236.49.59 (talk) 21:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• Likely, the picture is copyrighted and can't be used, but if you will provide a link to that image, and the name of the fish, I will not only see if I can find an image that is properly licensed, but will show you how to do the same thing. It isn't too difficult once you know how. (ie: not just give you a fish, but show you how to fish...yes, pun intended.) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:36, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Normandy landings

Hello Dennis: Can I please ask you to look at recent history of the above article. An unregistered editor has made five reverts in the last 24 hours and is ignoring the consensus built-up in the article. Further he has made unhelpful comments about French and other forces. I have tried to be civil (see his Talk page), as have other editors, but we seem to be ignored in favour of his PoV. I would be grateful for your advice/action. With best regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 21:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• I just added a comment below yours at AN3. Lets see how they handle it. I try to not jump in since it is an a board, unless there is an overwhelming need. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
• Many thanks, Dennis. Regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Muscle cars

I'd love to get a few car articles up to spec, to stand as an example for others to follow if you will. My first thought, given your interest in American V8s and mine in British cars, was that the Sunbeam Tiger might be a good mix. But having looked at that article a little more closely I'm pretty sure that the text has been copied from somewhere, so we'd likely have to write the whole damn thing from scratch. Malleus Fatuorum 22:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• I was thinking the something similar. They show sources, but something isn't right. After reading up on the car a bit (I wasn't very familiar prior), it actually makes sense since the car is influenced from both sides of the pond. Research material is a bit harder to find, but I don't think it would be too difficult to tackle with both of us working on it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
• I went ahead and ordered a book on Amazon, something that I think will work fine in the bibliography. It should be here Saturday. That alone should be adequate to cite the technical information and much more. I don't have ready access to newspaper articles before 2000, although I can probably access some with my highbeam account. I went in and properly formatted the current citations, to give us a structure to work from. That article has been around for almost 10 years. It doesn't look bad, but it certainly could be much better, and will be shortly. Will go ahead and move this to the talk page there now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

  That's great. I've got access to archived newspaper articles so I'll see what I can find there. Once we've got your other article done and dusted of course. Malleus Fatuorum 04:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

  It is next on the list for sure, just gathering a list of sources and books. For me, immersion is the best way to tackle an unfamiliar topic like this. Once I gather the sources, I will do little but read for a couple of days, note the inconsistencies, etc. That is the method I use at work: gather, immerse, outline, expand, polish. I have no idea if it is "proper" or not, I lack the academic experience, it is just what I've developed over the years. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

The articles on the V8-powered Bristols might also benefit from Anglo-American collaboration? Writegeist (talk) 01:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've got a GA pending, then this Sunbeam article and a follow up to the GA (same topic, different decade) but what did you have in mind? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:05, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Unrelated, but hey Drmies...Can you hear me now? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:56, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Loud and clear. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 April 2013

• News and notes: Chapter furore over FDC knockbacks; First DC GLAM boot-camp

• In the media: Misplaced Pages's sexism; Yuri Gadyukin hoax

• Featured content: Wiki loves video games

• WikiProject report: Japanese WikiProject Baseball

• Traffic report: Most popular Misplaced Pages articles

• Arbitration report: Sexology closed; two open cases

• Recent research: Sentiment monitoring; UNESCO and systemic bias; and more

• Technology report: New notifications system deployed across Misplaced Pages

• Read this Signpost in full
• Single-page
• Unsubscribe
• EdwardsBot (talk) 06:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	Always pouring oil on troubled waters - your comments here just underline what a level-headed and sensible chap you are. Thanks for helping defuse what could have been an ongoing problem in a polite, caring and considerate way. Yunshui 雲‍水 07:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank Yunshui. He seems like a good kid, just tripping over his own feet a bit, like they all can do sometimes. I thought Nick put it well and just wanted to reinforce his good advice. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Question

I just had a thought (unusual for this early in the morning). At EotW, we like to keep the whole nomination process secret until the award is actually distributed. No problem so far...except now... with the advent of this whole new "Notification" business. The nominee will "see" mention of his name and come and look what Its about. Any advice on how to assure that the nominee doesnt find out before the Award is distributed? Can the EotW Project opt out of the Notification Process? Maybe its not even a problem but I dont know.```Buster Seven Talk 14:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Honestly, I have no idea. I would think not. User:Okeyes (WMF) would be the one to ask. If you don't link their name via ], then it shouldn't show up. I think it won't show up in notifications if you switch to {{u|UserName}}, based on User:Drmies's experience, but I'm not positive. There is no way to think of all these interesting unintentional side effects until you put the program into place, although I bet they have thought of many of them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Buster7, did you get a notification for this mention? AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 17:23, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Crap. Buster, you are probably right. Tell you what, why don't you submit a fake nom of me, and I will see if I get a notification, or I can do it of you. This is a concern I wouldn't have thought of...good thought Buster. Go Phightins! 03:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

...and thanks to AutomaticStrikeout, who first raised this issue on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Editor Retention/Editor of the Week. isaacl (talk) 03:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

BTW, I have un-linked all the editors in the "Q". I hope it wasn't to late. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

My guess is that the notification is created the moment you save a linked name, and unlinking doesn't "un"notify them, which would require yet another process, but that is just my guess. It is hard to do anything "privately" around here, and trying to do the process offwiki, email, isn't likely to be viable single other people need to participate as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Ping Fu

Hi Dennis, you commented that this page Ping Fu would be Pending-change protected for a period of 2 months. But I did not see the page protected this way, so I left a message on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. Now Tbhotch remarks that this decision was meant for another page. Can you clarify? Thanks, SchreyP 21:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Someone else fixed that, I put it in the wrong section. Sections move around there a lot, so I've done that a time or two before. I'm dealing with that issue at ANI, so letting another admin decide on protection. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis for taking care of. It is clear now what happended. I was a bit confused with the messages. Regards, SchreyP 08:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

No topic

To be clear I wasn't saying you are part of a facist organization, I was just pointing out appeals (at least mine) work in an un-democratic manner. And Anti-democratic thought includes fascism. What I noticed is that many of the people who Opposed my appeal were not really reading it. Most of them seemed to be reading what the big Admins were saying and just copy that. This is hardly a fair trial. One of my Universal Human Rights was violated. It's like going to jail not because you were guilty of murder, but because the court didn't like you.

All that being said, I have gone over 3/4 of a month without violating the ban (albeit one accident that was forgiven) and still plan to appeal it again after a month has passed. I am still hoping you will support my appeal at that time. Again, Misplaced Pages does not have a fair trial, people are just going to say what the Admins say. You have a lot of respect among the community and I'm sure your Support can make a huge difference. Now that I have a better understanding on how the system works, I'm going to be less hostile to hostile users and take other advice you've given. And sicne you were right about my last appeal being a bad idea, if you think appealing it again after a month is also a bad idea, I will take your advice this time. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• You are right about a couple of things, it wasn't a fair trial but then again, there is no justice here and Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Very often, editors will just add "me too!" comments or !votes that are not really on topic. Any closer is expected to ignore those, and usually do. There were also some comments with merits there as well, including mine. While admin try to be fair, at the end of the day, the overall goals at WP:Five pillars and policy are expected to dominate the decision making, along with consensus. I would strongly recommend waiting to seek removal of the restrictions. It is expected that you will first demonstrate they are no longer needed before they will be removed, and this takes time. Keep in mind, if they are lifted and you violate the spirit that caused them in the first place, you will simply be blocked, so I would caution against moving too fast. As for how I would !vote, I would wait until that time and look at the recent history. Honestly, I've been in the middle of a WP:GA until last night, and now working on another, so I haven't really looked. I can't promise how I would vote, or even that I will vote, but I will promise to try my hardest to be objective and fair about it at that time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, the only way I can demonstrate they are no longer is by not editing Armenian and BLP articles, which I have not been editing. So why is one month not long enough, even though you previously said it was? How long do you have in mind? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

It hasn't been a month yet. My reasoning for suggesting waiting is mainly "a gut feeling", I really can't articulate why. There are two considerations at play here: "When is getting the topic ban lifted a fair act" as well as "When is getting a topic ban lifted a realistic possibility". If you focus on the former, you will likely never be unbanned. If you focus on the latter, then your odds are better. Again, it isn't about justice (remember, we have no justice here) it is about getting the desired result you want. Going in before the community thinks you are ready, like you did last time, looks bad and makes people not want to lift the ban. Whether or not you like this is irrelevant, it is simply human nature, which is beyond my control. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm saying if things go as fine as they have so far in another week. Then will you be in support of lifting my ban? I think getting it lifted after a month is a realistic possibility and so did you. You are part of the community too and everyone on the AN board seems to value your opinion. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I haven't gone through and looked at your contribs, so I'm not in a position to commit. When and if the time comes, I will then. I'm not automatically opposed, I just lack enough information to commit. I've actually been quite swamped over the last few weeks, starting a new article and taking it to GA, and now I've jumped on another editing project. I've been trying to spend more time editing and less admin'ing, to be honest. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

LarryTr7

Since you're the admin stating you are willing to block them, is that enough for an immediate indef? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• I would prefer another admin or experienced editor come in and offer an opinion, particularly since NE Ent has expressed reservations about the block. I disagree with him, but his opinion has the same worth as my own here, so it would be a bit brazen to block the editor without a broader consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• It may be possible that Ent has changed course on this, especially as they were the one to redact the BLP violation. But I understand your position :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:13, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• It doesn't stop me from acting on any future actions or problems, but if Ent truly changed his mind and decided that a block was the better course of action, he would follow up. Also, this is more a long term problem, so it doesn't require haste in deciding. I don't always require discussion to act, but this is one of those types of cases that is best left to discussion first, at least at this stage. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi

Can you do me a favour please Dennis (assuming you are still a clerk) and look at that. I am afraid I messed up and that the sock is Nangparbat, if it is he is currently editing articles and voting in AFDs which I would like to revert if it is Nang. But I am not 100% certain as I usually am with Nang so if possible I would like this checked ASAP. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• I still clerk there some, likely the longest lived "trainee" in SPI history. Moved it over and merged, no problem. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Den, for a trainee you are pretty damn good Darkness Shines (talk) 20:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

the Tiger

re: "but already developing an affinity for the little beasty." .. it does look like it would be a blast to drive one of those. :) (and ty for the userspace link) — Ched :  ?  20:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• No problem. I was just thinking how they remind me of the collaborations of Malleus and I: The loud American engine pushing things forward and the British chassis that makes sense of it all and makes it move forward in a straight line. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

  The MGB V8 was similar, but it used a British V8. Well actually it was a derivation of one of GM's V8s to be fair, but it was a fantastic engine nevertheless. I helped my brother to convert his TR7 to TR8 spec, maybe 20 years or so ago now. I'll never forget lying underneath that car struggling to heave the new five-speed gearbox into place. Malleus Fatuorum 20:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

  It is so funny that now I have a little 2.0 litre turbo-charged I4 engine in my Sonata, and it smoothly produces 274 hp at the wheels. Still, it doesn't have that visceral connection to the road like the old roadsters. My 450SL and Karman Ghia had that, but all the toys are sold. Now you have me wanting a new toy.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

  V8s are great, but the best sounding car I ever heard was the Triumph GT6, which had a lovely burbling straight-six engine. I've still got a couple of my toys, the MGB and the Jag, but one of them will soon have to go. Malleus Fatuorum 20:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

  I have to admit a weakness for two-door Chevrolet Impalas and Chevy trucks from the late 60s. I've owned a pair of Monte Carlos and a pair of El Caminos from the mid 70s as well, and a 69 Firebird. And I think 8 or 9 trucks including my current '05 2500HD. Extended cab, of course. I like big vehicles, typical yank I guess. The wife is the one who loves the roadsters. Her last toy was a fully optioned 2006 Eclipse SE, which resulted in a string of speeding tickets. It was quick enough that punching it was a bit scary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

  I always found that company cars go much faster than anything you could buy yourself, which resulted in me getting a string of speeding tickets as well when I had one. Malleus Fatuorum 21:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

FWIW

Confirmed is confirmed, but by "incontrovertibly confirmed", I was giving emphasis to its indisputability, i.e. partly that it was totally indisputable, but mostly because it would have been impossible for a different conclusion to be drawn. Cheers. WilliamH (talk) 17:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• I took it to mean exactly that. I've never seen you use that before, and know you well enough to know that you wouldn't use that term unless you were willing to bet a week's lunch money on it. You aren't one to use hyperbole. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

AUSC elections

The elections are over and the results were posted. --Rschen7754 19:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oh hell, not the first dumb thing I've done today. I really should just avoid this place when I'm taking heavy doses of cough medicine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review

Hey Dennis, could you do a quick peer review on the WKEY (AM) article? I say quick cause the article is kinda small. Thanks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:05, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm no Malleus (I think I'm taller, younger and more handsome) but I will try:

• "Country" and "oldies" shouldn't be capitalized in the lede and elsewhere unless it starts a sentence.
• "WKEY took to the airwaves" would be better said as "WKEY began broadcasting".
• "WKEY would increase its power in 1987 to 1,000 watts day and night." is confusing since they were already at 1000 watts during the day. You might just say they increased their nighttime broadcast power to match their day, 1000 watts.
• "away from Covington proper" lose the "proper" (I make the same mistake sometimes)

Prose seems a bit padded and could be condensed a great deal. Are you going for DYK or something? I was looking for something to add to the article, and I checked google books and google news and found exactly zero. Going to be a tough one to expand. They don't even seem to have any local press that is searchable online. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I was going to go for GA, I doubt I could take this past that. It took me awhile to find references after expanding, so I missed out on taking it to DYK. Covington, VA doesn't have but a local daily newspaper that has a barebones website. I will, however, look for some more local information from them and Google News. I will make the recommended changes first though. Thanks for your help. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a GA expert, having just recently earned my first two, but from a quick look, I just don't see enough available material on the station. I'm talking a complete void of available material. But I'm glad you've added what you have, I think we should have every licensed radio station with an article, even if it is very short. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty much what's available is what is on the page. What is there took awhile to find too. The last piece came together just a couple hours ago. I don't think it will survive GA, but it is worth a shot. We do have articles for most of the radio stations out there. User:Mlaffs and User:Dravecky deserve a HUGE amount of credit for all the work they have done to create those articles and keep them updated. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to discourage anyone from seeking a GA, but there is already a backlog there and submitting one that you know won't pass probably isn't useful. I suggest just making it the best you can, and focus your time on GAs instead on a subject that has enough material to become more than a very short article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

What I have on the page is all I can find. I did extensive searches on Google, Bing, and Yahoo for information (sometimes you get different links on different search engines) and came up with nothing new. Alot of that came from different Broadcasting Yearbooks that come out every year. They have a TON of information in them, so it was helpful in getting the bulk of the information for the page. The yearbooks were created with information culled from the stations themselves and the FCC (so they are good sources of old information). Beyond that, though, I came up empty.

Why I think it is GA quality is that, while it is a small article, it is heavily sourced with good, reliable sources on pretty much every sentence. While I don't think it will survive a GA, I hope that it will. I tend to be a "glass half-empty" kinda person. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Start of an edit war

Hey! I would greatly appreciate it if you or another admin could take a look at this page (check history of the redirect if it redirects you), as well as the consensus reached here, and knock appropriate heads together (or tell me to drop the stick). I don't want this to turn into blockings required ugly, but I'm afraid it might if left alone. I'm also trying to hold to a 1RR on that page. Thanks! Tazerdadog (talk) 15:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• That is a textbook supervote, as IRWolfie points out. I've recommended the close be set aside and it be reclosed by someone else. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• Note that User:Tazerdadog is the only user who reverted at Tau (2π) twice today: here 1 and here 2. Tkuvho (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• One creation, and one reversion. I'm done editing there for at least 30 hours or so. Tazerdadog (talk) 16:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• A supervote (I corrected myself above) is when a closer doesn't just look blindly at the discussion and close the discussion with a summation of the discussion, they instead combine those arguments into their own argument and use that as a closing statement. In other words, they have an opinion in the outcome and inject that into the closing. They aren't being objective. This is why people aren't supposed to close discussion on topic where they have strong feelings, they can't be objective. A close should weigh both sides without injecting their own opinions. This isn't always easy to do, and some fail in spite of their best efforts. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
• As far as who has reverted or edited, I haven't looked. I limited my observations to the close itself, was it within expectations for an RfC close. In this case, no, it was not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Cross-project spammer and sockpuppeteer

User:Linkproz is a blocked role account for a company of "reputation management" and SEO spammers. They have an account in Commons, and possibly elsewhere as well. You've helped with the puppetry: have you got contacts who can stop them elsewhere? --Orange Mike | Talk 18:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• User:INeverCry is my go to man for Commons. I don't have connections elsewhere, maybe he does. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked the acct indef on Commons. INeverCry 02:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Advice sought

Hi Dennis. I was worried about WP:NOTCATALOG at Paul Motian and I left a note at the editor's Talk Page. I see that similar concerns may have been raised back in 2011 (see Talk:Paul Motian). I've since taken advice from User:Boing! said Zebedee and he thinks that only the bare ref formatting is an issue. I wondered if you had a view? Many thanks for your time. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• I hate to push you to someone else, but when it comes to policy on musicians and albums, I've traditionally asked User:TenPoundHammer, the author of Misplaced Pages:TenPoundHammer's Law. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • No worries. I'll give him a try! Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC) ... just testing! Thanks for checking. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:38, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Mass changes of colours of weatherboxes

Recently, the weatherboxes that I have edited have been mass reverted to standard colours by another editor(blue for precipitation). Although other users use non-standard colours in addiing/editing the weatherboxes and follow similar conventions listed in the discussion for the weather box (under the section "Basic standards for colours and wording") , this editor has only changed the colours to the weatherboxes that I have edited and left a response on my talk page saying that I am mass adding non-standard colours, even though he/she could have done the same thing to another user. I have previously told the editor that using blue colours is not approrpiate in these areas because they cause the colours to blend (harder to read) and misrepresent the climate by making it much colder than it should be. My question is that is this action that the editor did is appropriate? Reason is that I feel singled out and I need outside opinion. Ssbbplayer (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I can only guess that you were singled out because it was easy to look at your contribs and find a bunch of them without effort, then convert them. I've done this before, where one is "wrong", so you go and fix them all. I doubt you are being picked on, even though I understand why it might look that way. It was just convenient to "fix" a bunch at once by patrolling your edits, I assume.

I'm not inclined to jump into the discussion there, but I have had to work with MOS issues with templates and I will just say that I strongly favor all articles using the exact same color scheme. I don't care which, as long as they all match. I use Misplaced Pages a lot to surf city climate data, and it bothers me greatly to see completely different methods and colors used on the different cities. It looks unprofessional. So I will leave the color scheme to others to decide, but I still wish we would pick one and then go change all the articles to match that. Rather than worry about the individual ones, I suggest getting a dialog started to standardize them for all articles. Blue, green, paisley, whatever, but all the same. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

When you mean methods, does this mean the data presented? Ssbbplayer (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Some use different colors, some use different table styles as well, very different. Frustrating that we don't use the same type type format and colors on all articles. For example, compare the climate data for Houston#Climate and Atlanta,_Georgia#Climate (collapsed) and Sacramento,_California#Climate, which is really different. I've seen a few that only use that upper table for them, even though it has both kinds of tables. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok. The standard is usually sunshine hours (monthly amounts), not the percent of possible sunshine. Ironically, before the edits were reverted, most weatherboxes in Canada (that is an example) used the same colour scheme (green) and the data was almost similar (although some did not have sun hours as it was not available). Would it be more realistic to use the same colours of the weatherboxes in one country instead of all places around the globe? Ssbbplayer (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment The Atlanta weatherbox is the standard one, based on the appearance of many other weatherboxes in USA. The Sacramento, California one is actually inaccurate because the values for possible amounts of sunshine are derived from monthly sunshine hours (I prefer eliminating the % values). Since the sunshine hours is from the 1961-90 period but the % values are up to 2009, the weatherbox is misleading. The Houston weatherbox was controversially changed to % sunshine. Before, it was monthly amounts. Ssbbplayer (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

As for different countries, that is something for the community to decide, not me, but I tend to think that no, we use the same for every country maybe using metric instead of imperial as the primary units (although I would argue we should use only the metric). I can't think of a reason why Japan should be treated differently than Cuba for climate data, for example. I'm not an WP:MOS expert, but I'm thinking we generally treat all like things the same unless there is an overriding reason why we need to ignore all rules and treat it differently. Uniformity is the goal. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Metric is used in almost every country except for USA. I know that the weatherboxes differ from country to country partly because of what the community decides but also the availability of the data. For example, while weatherboxes in USA include record highs, lows and snowfall, other countries might only include just average highs and lows and precipitation. Thus, it is better to treat it differently on the basis of the availability of data and standardize weatherboxes in one country. For example, the weatherboxes I added in Mexico always includes highs, lows, mean, record highs and lows, precip, precip days (snowy days for colder places) and humidity and sun (if available) and use the same colour scheme (before reverted to standard colours). For the Japan and Cuba example, Japan has a much larger variety of data from its national meteorological agency while Cuba has a much limited amount of data and so the weatherboxes will have to be different because you cannot just make up numbers. Ssbbplayer (talk) 15:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand that some cities will have more info than others, my concern is just the superficial format, the look and feel. You can't publish "hours of sunshine" if you don't have the data, but if you do have it, all should be the same color. Same with other facts. WP:MOS isn't concerned with content as much as display and format, so every similar page has a similar look and feel. This makes using the encyclopedia easier, to be honest, because you get used to seeing information formatted one way for similar data. Not exact, mind you, but similar enough that it flows. I think working with others to unify all this first would be helpful. If you want to see something completely out of MOS, take a look at all the color coordinated templates for sports teams, drives me mad enough that I stay away from them. To me, the templates should all be the same color, and use the article itself to describe the official colors, etc. Often, this colorization violates WP:accessibility as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I am currently discussing this on the |discussion for the colours to be used]]. Thanks for your opinion on it. Ssbbplayer (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Howdy Dennis

I was wondering if you could help me in creating new sandboxes or spaces to work on articles? I'm working on several new articles currently that are at different stages of completeness, and at the moment I have to mainly use MSword and keep my sandbox for the most complete. Maybe something like what you've done with the Sunbeam Tiger article, so I can collaborate on stuff (esp. new BLPs) until they are up to standard. Thanks. Hillbillyholiday 18:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I have several articles working at the same time, so I create a subdirectory and place them under that. On the subdirectory page, I just list them. So you could create User:Hillbillyholiday81/Articles by typing anything in there and saving. Then create articles under that by listing them first, like:

User:Hillbillyholiday81/Articles/Ancient Egyption Algebra,

User:Hillbillyholiday81/Articles/List of Futurama pop culture references

(or something less silly) and go edit them, which creates them. Then use the main page, /Articles to just list them and make notes, like I do at User:Dennis Brown/Articles I use that page as a work sheet, for the subarticles, "to do list", listing stuff I've already done, etc. It works for me, and you just type the link, make an edit and the page exists. If you move it to main space, it keeps the whole history intact and creates a redirect from the old name to the new article. As long as we are taking new articles, it is that easy. Oh, and I have a link to my Articles sub section on my user page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah ha, nice one Denzil my sahn. You're a diamond geezer, mate, diamond.. Hillbillyholiday 21:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Being a yank, I'm not familiar with him, now I need to go find an episode to watch, to make sure I"m not being insulted. ;) Glad to help. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a British institution, pretty damn funny (David Jason aka Del Boy is a "Living National Monument" currently undergoing restoration), and its a perfect snapshot of 1980s UK culture. Denzil is a bit 'wide', but he's as "sahnd as pahnd" me ol' china. Hillbillyholiday 21:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Was already most of the way through the one you linked in your summary :) I also checked, can't get it on Netflix here, sadly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Stamps

Hey Dennis, I was looking at your article on the automobile manufacturing of the 1960s, and saw that it was dubbed the muscle car era...I mailed a letter via the good ole' U.S. Postal Service and the stamps lying around the house were a "muscle car" collection. If you haven't seen them, you oughta check them out. I found a picture here ... they may even be worth an inclusion in your article. Anyway, I hope all is well. Go Phightins! 21:50, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've copied this to the talk page on that article, will take a look and see. That might work as part of the "enduring influence section". Thanks! I'm still digging up sources on that article, but focusing on the Sunbeam article with Malleus right now, in between coughing spells and headaches, and doing the general help thing here on the talk page. I hate being sick. :p Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I here you with the sickness. Pollen count at historically high levels in my neck of the woods, and I have always had bad allergies, even when it's not this high. Mowing the lawn was a lot of fun, especially since I had to bag it and it was a little damp, so I had to move it from the bag into a plastic garbage bag by hand ... my sinuses literally feel as if they might explode at any moment . Good luck on the article. Go Phightins! 22:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • The Sunbeam Tiger article is a nightmare to source. I'm just focusing on nothing but sources and leaving poor Malleus to sift through my finds at this point. It is so rare, most books on it (and only a few have ever been written on the car) are extraordinarily expensive if you can even find a copy, and none are searchable online. Once Malleus and I get this to GA, we will have earned that friendly little green pip. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

A cure for what ails ye

Get well soon, Denzil.

Hillbillyholiday

• Thank you. I'm fully medicated right now, and if I didn't feel so bad, I would be feeling pretty good. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Alleged ban evasion

Hello Dennis. This is just a question. Naturally I am not going to admit being the same editor as others to have caused Bobrayner problems nor can I be expected to admit being somebody who has a history of editing. I see people just make their own minds up. Either way, can you confirm that an edit positively attributed to a "banned user" does not constitute vandalism if the revision in question can be seen as tendentious edit-warring? In short, I see a lot of edits with the summary "revert sock" even though it is not always the case that a sockpuppet/master's contribution is bad. What's the SP on that? Thanks. 188.29.192.144 (talk) 00:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• When I'm acting as an admin/SPI clerk, I don't really consider the quality of the edits from the reporting party, nor the quality of the edits of the block evading sockpuppet. I just enforce the policies (which are decided by the community, not the admin) to the best of my abilities, and stay focused on that. It isn't personal. Protecting and blocking isn't difficult or stressful, I'm watching TV while doing it, its all automated scripts, single click stuff. So you aren't making me mad, or working me hard, and the paperwork is easy enough. You are shooting yourself in the foot, however. All your edits will just get reverted, and no one will even consider your perspective now. I suggest just backing off for a few months, then discussing with Sandstein and myself (there are two concurrent blocks). I'm always open minded, even willing to overlook this series of evasion if it were to stop, but it has be after you demonstrate you really have the goals of the encyclopedia first. Or you can keep socking and everything will get protected and you will never have a chance to have any influence over the article content. Like I said, it really doesn't stress me and you are only hurting yourself here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear Dennis!!! With a mouth like mine, you'd have known if I wanted to "make you mad"! Far from it! Even with the position you've taken, I still have personal respect for you. Have no worries there. At the same time, I have to tell you the truth. I am not the person you think I am. If he were to edit, the IP would not be here in the south of Britain but some 1,800 miles south-east. He said he'd fly to Belgrade today and such he has. I think the correct term to describe deputies such as I is maybe a "meatpuppet". I will happily discuss everything, the good stuff, the bad stuff. But poor old Bob isn't having a nice time tonight is he! :)))) Looks to me like in two hours he's made about five edits stand. His life can easily be made bad. I'm more interested in clearing up a false ban than anything else. But where do we begin! 92.41.189.153 (talk) 01:44, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Evlekis, you're not going to shorten your block by using lots of accounts like this. bobrayner (talk) 01:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm reminded of this post: , which is contradicted by the claim here. If you are a meatpuppet, you aren't a good friend, as you are only making it more difficult for him to come back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

revdel?

Could you or one of your stalkers please take a look at this diff and revdel it? Thank you. Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

•  Done Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

RPPs for Evlekis

Hi Dennis, actioning the Evlekis-related semi requests already at RPP would be really helpful. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• I already did about 5 minutes ago ;) Just woke up. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:23, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protecting user js pages

Hi Dennis, I noticed you had protected User:Bobrayner/vector.js and User:Bobrayner/monobook.js for "persistent vandalism". Since those pages are only editable by the user and other sysops, I was wondering why you applied semi-protection. Thanks! Legoktm (talk) 22:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't even think about those being non-accessible to other users, even though I used to know that.... I got an email by the user requesting semi-protection of a list of articles in his own userspace, so I just protected them all as I knew there wouldn't be any contention in it. There has been an ongoing sockpuppet issue. Thanks for the reminder, I fixed those two. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. Legoktm (talk) 02:22, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Telling users the purpose of ANI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

You should have stuck with your original hesitancy and not posted this wall of nonsense. Dennis, if he chooses to respond, may be kinder.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh you're so sweet, Bbb, you're so always kind to me, it makes just wanna kiss ya. Thanks for putting your nose in uninvited, to stir up drama, to spit on me, to hussle to backup your Admin buddies, or whatever the H you think you're doing. Because we all know you Admins don't hang in groups, with your "for-life billyclubs", and think WP is just so you can roam and keep the puling masses silent. Or whatever. Nice chattin' w/ ya! (Did I say I wish I never see your usernameface again? No?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not interested in debating you. If you feel I shouldn't be an admin for any reason (incompetence, abuse, etc), start a process at the proper venue, and if a consensus of editors thinks I should resign the bit, I will gladly do so. And Bbb23 is always welcome here, as is every editor. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• You completely miss the point Dennis (is it intentional?), because I wasn't interested in debating you, either. I'm asking about your consistency, on the one hand to instruct users at ANI what ANI is for, then to today invalidating those instruction to users, calling said knowledge "just my opinion". I asked you a clear question, Dennis, how you find that consistent, and for you to think about the consistency of your stances. And for you to work it out and explain to me, because I think I'm rightly confused about it. But instead, you see it as some sort of personal attack on you, which it is clearly not. (Didn't I say, more than once, that the problem of inconsistent use and view of ANI is rampant and shared by multiple Admins? You are just one that came to mind, for having espoused factually at ANI what ANI is for, and what it is not for. I've asked you to review doing that in the future, in light of your admission today that you haven't been coming from a point of knowledge about WP policy or guideline, but from a point of pure opinion. So in future you should always identify your instructions to users as such, rather than misguide them to thinking they understand process and policy, when it is mere opinion, and all opinions how to use ANI are created equal.

  You have many times, Dennis Brown, complimented yourself to others how you "keep an open mind" and "are always learning", but whenever Ihardlythinkso throws an idea across your path to self-reflect and consider, you consistently turn it into a personal thing, to shed the prospect of replying conscientiously to a good-faith question and puzzlement. (Is that demonstrating your AGF, Dennis?) Goodnight. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Your statement "in light of your admission today that you haven't been coming from a point of knowledge about WP policy or guideline, but from a point of pure opinion." is inaccurate. It is things like this that make it a chore to discuss with you, and why I am not interested in doing so. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

"Just how you do it"!? That doesn't mean the "other ways of doing it" are consistent with the purposes of ANI, at the same time that you have numerous times explained to users at ANI threads, instructed them, that ANI was not for the purpose they were bringing there? (This is supposed to make sense to me!? And it doesn't just because I'm a difficult user!? And my question about consistency isn't good-faith!?) You avoid, avoid, avoid my point, my question, and make it personal instead. I've been not singling you for anything, Dennis, so this has never been personally aimed at you. It is just that you have been a clear and memorable proponent of correcting the understanding of new-ish users ("educating") who have errantly gone to ANI, when it all comes down to "That's just the way I do it. Other Admins can do it differently." Instead of seeing the inconsistency in that, you attack me personally, as a bad user out to get you. Real civil. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• For the 4th time, I'm not interested in debating with you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:58, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• For the 5th time, I've no interest in debating you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 06:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

  Not a debate, Dennis; a simple Q. Your asserting "debate" numerous times, doesn't make it so. Repeatedly mischaracterizing my Q is pretty aggressive, even nasty, IMO. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• This makes the sixth time (including the close) I've made it clear I am requesting that you disengage. Please find something else to do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

  (You needn't reply, Dennis. This is just to document what I'm talking about.) Here is one of several examples where you sent editors away from the ANI board, back to article Talk, at same time instructing/educating/informing them how ANI venue ("Admins") is not for resolving content disputes:

  This is an ongoing RFC regarding editorial decisions. Admin do not decide content, editors do. Please take it back to the talk page of the article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:18, 26 April 2013

Hmmm. An administrator who isn't willing to defend their positions. Where have I seen that before? ~ DanielTom (talk) 10:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm obligated to explain any administrative use of the admin tools and always will, in full detail. I'm not obligated to engage in debate that is unrelated to the use of the admin tools. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The low drama paths here, in other of effectiveness are: 1. just let Ihtso have the last word. 2. remove their comments from your talk page without additional comment. NE Ent 13:36, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Pegasus Bridge

Hello again Dennis, Could I please ask your opinion/action on the latest revisions to the Pegasus Bridge article. I have asked the unregistered editor to stop vandalising this page and making poor edits, but they seem not to take any notice. I must confess a personal interest, as my own father was killed in the Normandy campaign. Best regards, as always, David, David J Johnson (talk) 12:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Th 92 seems to have some English issues, and it is hard to tell if the edits are vandalism or just pure disruption. I've protected the article for a week as there have been other issues previously. I suggest trying to engage the IP on their talk page, which might tell if this is pure vandalism. If it isn't, just ask for protection to be lifted, but I think this is more than just a content dispute. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:35, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
• Dennis, Thanks so much for your help. Regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 16:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Evlekis

You might want to take a look at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Evlekis. User:Sandstein might too. Cheers. WilliamH (talk) 14:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like I need to go make another round of protections. A bit tied right now, will look later. He is heading down the path of an official site ban if he isn't careful. Thanks for the note, it appears I will need to keep updated on this case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:14, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Much obliged. WilliamH (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 May 2013

• News and notes: Candidates nominating for Foundation elections; Looking ahead to Wikimania 2014

• Technology report: Foundation successful in bid for larger Google subsidy

• Featured content: WikiCup update: full speed ahead!

• In the media: New Misplaced Pages for Schools edition; Anders Behring Breivik's Misplaced Pages contributions

• WikiProject report: Earn $100 in cash... and a button!

• Read this Signpost in full
• Single-page
• Unsubscribe
• EdwardsBot (talk) 18:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerns

Hi. I don't know if you are aware of the recent activity at User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz. There's a probable issue going on in his talk page especially with regards to his disruptive editing since he is blocked for 1 month by Fram and he has posted a copyvio link to a Youtube video on his talk page. Can you please do something about this? I would rather not get myself blocked over trivial matters and I have an exceptionally low tolerance with regards to uncalled for disrespect or incivility obviously. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• You probably want to stop reverting him. His link is not a copyvio, it comes from the publisher. The previous link that DanielTom posted was to YouTube, and it was a copyvio and rightfully reverted by Bbb23. There isn't anything wrong with the current link. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

That almost sounds fair, Dennis. ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

To be perfectly fair, you didn't add the link originally, you just reverted it back in. I only went back that far before quickly posting here so Sjones23 didn't revert again. Then I went and looked again. Kiefer added it originally, but he correct the error by using a proper source. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER

I understand. Thanks. Unfortunately, KW made a bit of an insulting comment towards me, stating that I "would do better to develop reading before again violating talk-page guidelines or wasting Dennis's time further." I think the part about developing my reading was pretty much in my view condescending, since I am a regular established editor here and I don't intend to cause trouble or violate TPG. I am sure that I did not mean to harass, hurt or upset anyone in doing so. So if I have caused any problems (whether its intentional or unintentional), then I am sorry. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

To a large extent, Kiefer is to blame. When he reverted putting in a proper link, he didn't bother to explain in the edit summary what he was doing, so it appeared to be a true revert when it wasn't. His comment in the edit summary calling you illiterate compounded the problem. You have nothing to apologize for.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

@Sjones23: Well, your suggestion to "Disable talk page access" was not very kind, was it?

@Dennis: I almost lost faith in your "saintliness" for a second there! Thank you for that clarification. Cheers ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Holy cow, I'm more flawed than the average bear, trust me, I know this. My only saving grace is that I really do try to get it right. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

DanielTom, I made a mistake when naming the header, so I am renaming it and excuse me for my apparent rudeness. I was a bit concerned though, since users such as Fladrif (who has been blocked) are keen to find faults with other users (including myself) and are oblivious to their own behavior. One of the things I found out from this discussion was that even though people can be abusive and continue to personally attack other users while attempting to dominate and control WP. And Bbb23, I see your point now about what is going on. But over the past couple of weeks, I have found some incivil comments by users like Fladrif utterly disgraceful in my opinion obviously. That has led to AGK withdrawing from the WT:BASC thread on Will Beback. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) How flawed is the average bear? We were once hiking in British Columbia. We had been informed that there were different kinds of bears in the area. We were given a pamphlet that described the differences between a black bear and a grizzly. The same pamphlet also explained the different techniques for dealing with a confrontation with both bears. As we hiked, we joked about what would happen if we actually saw a bear. "Hold on, Mr. Bear, we need to look at the pictures in our handy dandy brochure." (Whips out pamphlet) "Just a second, Mr. Bear, we're having trouble matching you with the pictures." "Hey, no need to get impatient." "Hey ..." (sounds of mangling of flesh, bones, and pamphlet) --Bbb23 (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I can't resist Bbb23, you just reminded me of this photo that floats around Facebook regularly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:08, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

LOL. We actually were somewhat nervous during one of our hikes because no one else was on the trail. We didn't have bells, so we talked to each other loudly (and pretty sillily as well). I once had a discussion with another hiker about identifying animal feces. The things you learn, although I confess that I have only a vague recollection now of what he told me.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

After 5 edit conflicts, three of which were caused by SJones23 modifying his original comment, there's no point, is there? Intothatdarkness 22:22, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	You do more than try. Go Phightins! 22:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I appreciate the kindness GP. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:04, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

email

you have one. No reply needed - just wanted to say something. Best always. — Ched :  ?  23:51, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

On your comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dennis, you wrote at my talk page:

I don't see Bwilkins insulting the guy, he just said his actions were "dumb".

I honestly think you are wrong there, having been on the receiving end of such "non-insulting" insults by Bwilkins myself. Please see his Talk page, where there is a section with my name on it — that was not started by myself — in which Bwilkins also "just" said that my actions were unethical. ("I haven't seen an ounce on honesty or ethics in anything he's written"; "...it's probably one of the worst pieces of ethical conduct I've seen"; "You cannot get much lower - although perhaps their next step will be to insult my family or ethnicity"; "you've made your level of wisdom and maturity clear"; "your ethics have stooped to ad hominem attacks"; "your recent ani proves your level of ethics. Good luck integrating with humanity someday.") Excuse me, is that even acceptable? Bwilkins somehow managed to question my "ethics" a total of 3 times just in that short discussion! Now, how is that not insulting? How are administrators at Misplaced Pages allowed to be that abusive? Please help me understand. ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC) last edit: 12:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I haven't looked at all the previous comments, my observations were limited to the use of "dumb" at ANI. In that instance, it was blunt but not a personal attack. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:19, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"If you would like me to review the actions of another editor (including admins), just ask on my talk page." Were the green comments cited above personal attacks? Please tell me your opinion, because I think that if I had questioned your "ethics" so many times, I would be indef blocked by now. ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:27, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I did review the one. Right now, I'm gardening and only came in for a cool drink of water, so I can't look at it in depth just yet. Perhaps the two of you can discuss it, calmly, while I go chase gophers and dig holes. It would be better to leave the discussion on your page, since that is where the bulk of it is. And no, you wouldn't be blocked, you would just be mistaken ;) You should read my archives, I've been called everything but a child of god, I don't let it affect me so much. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:33, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Same ol' double standard. I'm not disappointed at you, Dennis, but for the record, here is what you should have said: "questioning a person's ethics like that is simply unacceptable, period." ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:43, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Holy cow, you walk out in a huff because I'm gardening and don't want to jump to conclusions without researching it? Sorry if my timetables doesn't suit you, but I am a volunteer here and real world obligations come first. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:29, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course — I didn't mean to rush you. I was just in a hurry myself, and had to leave the house for a few hours. Sorry for my theatrical exit. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

If I seem to be cutting him some extra slack, that isn't so, as I'm very tolerant of colorful language and blunt assessments from all editors. I might ask someone to tone it down, but I don't block or file at ANI over mild rudeness (see the other discussion on my page). I think it is necessary for people to be able to express themselves freely here, and I extend this same courtesy to every editor, even if they are an admin. So yes, sometimes I think he is more blunt than he needs to be, but I will tell you this. From my experience, he is here only to make Misplaced Pages a better place and he is truly dedicated to doing so. Even when I think he is "mistaken" or "too blunt", his goals are to improve the encyclopedia, not some personal gain as an editor. He isn't perfect (nor is any of us), but I haven't seen him ever try to be abusive or selfish in his actions. As I stated earlier, I think you (and plenty of others, to be honest) have an unrealistic expectation for admin sometimes. We can't live up to that and it just adds more stress to what is already a stressful task. Yes, admin should be held to the highest standards here, but that doesn't mean they are perfect, only that they try to be fair. We will come up short regularly, we will make mistakes, we will get rude sometimes, even if we try hard to not. People are rude to me regularly, and I usually just overlook it, understanding they are frustrated for whatever reason. Sometimes that is the best thing to do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"Telling someone to stop posting threats on your talk page would be a personal attack as it would imply the accused is threatening." I've been blocked (for a month!) for telling someone to stop making personal attacks against me, so yes it does seem to work that way sometimes. Although, the person I addressed was an administrator, so perhaps it rather depends on the status of the person with whom you're having a disagreement. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, it would appear that anyone who tries to defend me is simply going to be subject to attack, so as much as I appreciate it, you're probably wiser to drop it (since nobody else is dropping their sticks, pitchforks or torches). Look, an editor has a bee in their bonnet because I dared to tell them the truth: a) their behaviour in an AN thread had become disruptive, and b) implanting hidden text into comments was not nice. That's it; no more. Since that AN thread has ended long ago, then the issue should have dropped. Unfortunately, from then it has escalated to bizarre accusations of abuse. Now some people are parsing the English language in ways that a contortionist cannot even twist their body. One person even seems to have taken the word "or" out of a sentence to make it mean something 180 degrees opposite from the original statement. Look, I have no argument with DanielTom as an editor. I certainly don't ever recall having negative interactions with Ihardlythinkso - however, I could be wrong (I'm not the type to hold grudges, so it's not like I memorize these things). More people need to drop their sticks, learn from the past, and focus instead on the future - and on this project, the futures means "improving the project". So again Dennis, thanks - but don't let people twist your kind words any further (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Moral of the story: if you are an administrator, feel free to make personal attacks and even question other people's honesty and ethics! No one will hold you back, and there is no accountability whatsoever! You can even get away with extremely offensive personal attacks such as "your recent ani proves your level of ethics. Good luck integrating with humanity someday" and nothing will happen to you! You won't even get a warning! No one will ask you to stop. So enjoy abusing other editors. It's on the house. ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. You asked someone's opinion if those were NPA's or abuse. They said no. Others have said the same. You were advised long ago to either file your ANI against me or drop it. You can't have it both ways. PLUS, you're either accepting my apology and moving on or you are not. If you're not moving on, then you need to file your ANI while your misplaced anger is still strong. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

BWilkins, I accept your "apology", but please do not repeat it, sir. ~ DanielTom (talk) 17:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

One month later...

I wasn't going to bother you until now because you said you were busy. It has now been over a month and I'd like it if you would check my contributions and decide if you will support my ban being lifted. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reason that you have not given me a reply hours later despite that you were editing Misplaced Pages at the time I created this section and you have replied to other sections here? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:19, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, because I'm not a bloody jukebox, you can't just stick a quarter in me and have me pop out a song. How I prioritize replies is my affair. Asking me to explain my reasons is quite rude, and doesn't help your case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)This is just a guess, but with limited time to spend on Misplaced Pages, perhaps Dennis decided to do something he wants to do rather than answer your demand for attention. Gtwfan52 (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Harassing the person from whom you seek help rarely inclines them to give that help. LadyofShalott 23:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Sorry friend, I didn't mean to offend you. I can see how my words could have made me sound dryly sarcastic, but it was actually just a straight forward question. Last we talked you wanted to wait until the month was complete and said, When and if the time comes, I will then. If you're still busy, you just had to say so. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • (restored deleted comments) I expected to look at all your contribs this evening, which isn't a small task, but other things that were more urgent (ie: needed a reply now) came up. To be clear, I don't answer in the order I get questions, plus I get email requests as well, so I must prioritize. It will likely be tomorrow before I can consider. I'm also still feeling quite ill from a respiratory infection, and just took enough drugs to down an elephant, so will likely not do any work that needs "judgement" for the rest of the evening, if I do anything at all. It is a shame so much came up, I just got a new book in the mail and hoped to actually work on Tri-Five, something I've not been able to work on for months. But coming across impatient and demanding isn't doing yourself a favor here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
      • I don't feel impatient, just wanted an explaination. Again, I asked Is there a reason in a straight forward tone. Thank you for giving me that and I hope you feel better. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
        • And I don't think you realize how poorly that came across, but it did. I'm not the only one who noticed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
          • I clearly acknowledged my words sounded dryly sarcastic. I like you too and wouldn't do something to scold you. That's why I left you alone until your requested time. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the time to briefly review your edits over the last month, almost all of your edits have been in your sandbox, and they have all consisted of things you are topic banned for. Filing ANI reports that are found to have no merit, and the general impatience you shown during the entire duration of your topic ban are not reassuring. You don't seem to "get it" as to why you were topic banned to begin with, and you have simply moved it over to your sandbox, and focus only on BLP and Armenian related topics there. The topic ban wasn't a punishment that you have to wait out, it was a tool to get you to work on other areas instead of those banned topics. It was to prevent disruption and allow you to continue editing on different topics. If you were working significantly in other areas, I wouldn't mind a little dabbling in the areas you were banned from in your sandbox, but you don't seem to understand or accept the reasons for the topic ban to start with. So no, I can't support lifting the topic ban because your own actions are loudly telling me that you are likely going to storm back into those areas and repeat the same mistakes that got you topic banned to begin with. Based on my experiences with topic bans, I think the odds of you getting it lifted at this time are essentially zero. Even if I were to support, and begged and pleaded, I am confident that my voice would be drowned out in a sea of opposition. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You knew I was editing in my sandbox this whole time! You talked about it at the same time you recommended me to wait a month and even told me it would be neater to make seperate sandboxes. You don't seem to get that topic bans from BLPs make it impossible to edit most articles on Misplaced Pages. These types of articles are the one's I'm here to edit. At no point and time had anyone said I should work on other articles. What in my sandbox tells you I will make the same mistakes again? Did I use Twitter anywhere? If not, it seems you never had any intention of supporting a ban lift. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I knew you were working in your sandbox, I didn't know that you were only working there. I don't go around monitoring your ever edit, I have other things to do. If you want to show the community that you can edit and get along with others, you have to wander outside of your own sandbox. Otherwise, you are just trying to "sit out" the "punishment", and again, it isn't a punishment. The topic ban wasn't based on Twitter, Twitter was a single element that demonstrated a larger problem, so simply not using twitter as a source isn't going to fix the problem, because that isn't "the" problem. And I didn't have an intention of supporting a ban lift, nor had I promised I would even participate, I only said I would be open minded to consider it. I've been very clear on that, and would not ever promise a result before you put forth the effort. Besides, I don't have the authority to lift any ban, I'm just one voice in that discussion, nothing more or less. It isn't me you have to convince, it is the community as a whole. I didn't impose the ban on you, I was just one voice in a discussion, a unanimous discussion if memory serves me right. You can go ahead and ask to have it lifted today if you like, and I will be glad to simply avoid the discussion. I don't recommend it, but you are free to do as you please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Define "significantly" editing. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at your last 250 edits, which started April 13th, exactly a month go and just after the topic ban was put in place, here is what I find:

145 are in your sandbox

2 are other parts of your user space

52 are on user talk pages, 21 of which are here on my talk page

37 are in Misplaced Pages: space (Village pump, ANI, etc.)

That adds up to 236 out of 250 edits, meaning you have about 14 article edits in the last 30 days. 5.6% of your contribs. Less than one every two days. By any definition you choose to use, that is not significant article contribution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Then when you said "you were only working there", you were a liar.

I love how you are just suddenly saying I should have contributed elsewhere now. Why wouldn't you say it before? Because this was a trap I bet. I didn't know you were that shady. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 17:12, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)There's an old saying: When you've dug yourself a deep hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 17:16, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• This isn't the first time you've called me liar, even after giving you extraordinary proof. All I can say is that you probably should find someone else to help you, as I've done everything I can, and I'm out of ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Why did you not tell me from the beginning to contribute to other articles? Where does it say I should contribute to other articles? You're certainly not a truth-ar. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? It was a topic ban, not a block. If they wanted you to not edit at all, you would have been blocked. The entire reason, the only purpose of a topic ban is to allow the person to edit other articles and demonstrate they can be trusted to eventually return to the topic they were banned from. WP:Topic ban covers this. You weren't even supposed to be editing BLP and Armenian related issues in your sandbox, but it was something I stuck my neck out and essentially condoned in addition to working on other articles and demonstrating you can do so without controversy. You seem to be missing the entire reason that the topic ban was given here. I've tolerated being called a liar multiple times, and your impatience all the while I have volunteered to try to help you. I was not obligated to do anything, yet I've tried to help during your block and during your topic ban, but you won't listen, you just demand, pout, and make personal attacks. You are on your own now, friend, you need to get someone else to help you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Dennis, I would ask you to please reconsider. Yes, it is true, TheShadowCrow can be rude sometimes. As you say, we are all human. We make mistakes. But please understand that he just wants to be able to edit again pages that interest him. TSC has never vandalized any articles. He has made valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages, and you can see from his sandbox that he plans to keep making good edits in the future. Topic bans are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. He needs your help. Please, give him another chance. Thank you ... ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your concern and I'm usually the one pushing for lifting of sanctions, but you should probably know there is a bit more than meets the eye here. While he was previously blocked, I offered some guidance to him and have been watching the issue for some time. I supported the topic ban originally simply because he was going to be indef blocked otherwise. I've tried to be supportive since and offer guidance along the way as well, but keep in mind that I'm busy with a great many tasks here, so I don't follow every edit as they happen. The rudeness isn't the issue (look at my talk page archives User_talk:Dennis_Brown/Archive_21#Corrupt_librals.3F, if I was walking away due to rudeness, I would have done it then.) I haven't committed to opposing and I expected to not !vote at the discussion if one was had because I couldn't support. If I seem frustrated (and I am) it isn't because I've been called names. You've seen me called names before, that alone doesn't bother me. It was that I don't think I can help him, after I've tried several times. His topic ban wasn't my doing, and I'm generally against topic and interaction bans to begin with except where they will prevent a block. I am only one person, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to undo his topic ban. Your !vote counts exactly the same as mine in a discussion. Even if I wanted to unilaterally lift the ban, I can't. I don't have that authority, it was community imposed and only the community can lift it. Being an admin is fraught with lots of rules, and I've already stuck my neck out by condoning his using the sandbox to violate the topic ban (that bold act alone is enough reason for me to get yelled at or even sanctioned by the community). I've already gone out on a limb here. The reason I'm backing away isn't because I'm mad at him, it is simply because I can't help him, no matter how hard I've tried. I've failed in this, so it is better if someone else tries. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Further proof that Oscar Wilde was right: No good deed goes unpunished. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 14:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• One quick note: If he complies with the expectations of the community and demonstrates that removing the restrictions is worth the risk, I will still support. I just don't think we are close to there yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I won't complain, I'll edit some other articles and then appeal in a week or two. I am sorry if I offended you, though that was never my intention.

I feel like I'll continue to be a victim of the Admin lynch mob even if this ban is removed though. I am thinking of appealing the AA2 ban soon, and I see no reason why it won't be lifted since it's been many months since I've had issues on those subjects, yet I can't help but wonder if the Admins will rush to put it back on the moment I have a simple edit conflict (which are inevitable; most Admins have them daily).

I just noticed this guy has been periodically vandalizing articles for four years, yet not a damn thing has been done about it once. Why do Admins abuse their powers on people like me instead of doing their job and punishing people like that instead? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

User:BeyondMyKen conduct

Greetings Dennis, I think someone needs to take a look at the conduct of BeyondMyKen. He is being his typical dick self to other users (see the talk page of User:Epicgenius). Since anything I say is going to be dismissed as a chip or some other dumb shit maybe you could take a look? Kumioko (talk) 20:57, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• His last edit in the long chain of aggressive questioning was a day ago, and below he said he is unwatching that user's talk page. For the record, no one is required to divulge previous accounts and I don't approve of hammering someone who has done a cleanstart too heavily. I'm happy to look at SPI (or another clerk will) if someone thinks there is linkage, but hammering the person isn't helpful. There are a variety of good reasons to cleanstart, and assuming good faith means not raising the issue unless you have a link to make. This isn't ANI, so I don't want to get wild with the observations but will say that his asking wasn't the best course of action, but it is short of hounding. That said, it would probably also be helpful if you didn't refer to him as an asshole, as you did there, or a dick here. I won't insult you by explaining that further. If you think you need someone to mediate the issue, you are welcome to invite him here and we can calmly discuss it, editor to editor to editor, but not if it is going to be a pissing match. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:23, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  • With respect, the edit he just did to the users talk page in the last couple hours do not indicate he is taking him off his watchlist and the reversions and snide comments from his own page display a very aggressive behavior towards other users. I have been saying this over and over but no one is listening and I am getting frustrated at the lack of action with dealing with this abusive editor. I respect you but I do not respect him at all (nor does he me for that matter) and I don't think for a second he would accept anyway. You are right though I shouldn't refer to him that way but after attempting to discuss things with him in the past over the years I have come to the realization that using the nice way doesn't get anywhere with him so I tried the not nice way. I am attempting to contact you to make an honest attempt at finding someone outside the circle of stupidity but if you don't want to I understand. I'm used to it honestly but that will make me feel that I need to comment myself and I recognize that may not be helpful. Kumioko (talk) 22:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I"ve left a message on his talk page about it. No need to make the issue worse by adding drama, hopefully he listen and get the message that we can't threaten someone with a block if they don't disclose previous accounts. Policy certainly doesn't say that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Thanks. Kumioko (talk) 22:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Guidance needed

Dennis, I saw your great comments at this AN/I discussion and noticed you're an admin. I was hoping you could give me some guidance on an unrelated issue. I'm looking for any policies or guidelines which explain why an !vote discussion should never be closed by an editor who's either participated in it - either by !voting or even opining about the proposal. The reason I'm asking is because there are currently five move proposals taking place right now on the talk page at 2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio, and a few active participants in the proposals (they !voted and opined) attempted to snow-close three of them. Although I fully agree that at least two of them warrant being snow-closed, I reverted all three of the closes and wrote the editors to explain that it was improper due to violations of neutrality and conflict of interest. I know I saw the applicable rules somewhere, but for the life of me can't remember where. The editors are being very cordial and cooperative, but asked if there are any policies or guidelines which allude to why an editor who's involved in an !vote (or other discussion) should not close it. FYI... the five proposals are:
Let's try again: "Kidnappings of Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight"
Alternative proposal
Alternative proposal 2
Alternative proposal 3
Alternative proposal 4
So, if you can refer me to any applicable policies or guidelines that allude to why editors should never close an !vote they're participating in, that would be great. And if you feel like reviewing any of the alternative proposals to see if any of them warrant a snow-close, it would be much appreciated if you can close them. As I said, although I agree that proposals 3 and 4 certainly deserve to be closed, I want to make sure everything is done properly and fairly. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 00:20, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• The whole idea of "uninvolved" centers around the idea that when someone closes a discussion, their job isn't to use their personal opinion, but rather to weight the two (or more) sides of the argument against what the existing policies and norms are, and express it on behalf of the community. It is important that everyone else can trust that objectivity, which is difficult if they have expressed an opinion previously. I'm a huge fan of boldness, and a huge fan of non-admin closing discussions and such, but stiff like this has so much potential for problems, it is best left to someone uninvolved, and with closing experience. It hurts nothing to wait. While "snow closing" obvious proposals by involved people is semi-acceptable for very non-contentious discussion, in articles that are heated and busy like this one, others may pop up 3 hours later screaming "involved!!! OMG!" so you shouldn't close if you are involved, if only to avoid the drama. Policy doesn't spell it out in so many words but it supports the idea, and the community consensus on closing does as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:49, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • And if you want to point them to my opinion here, that is fine. My opinion isn't "the law" or an edict, but I've been here a while, and seen a lot of problems on these busy/newsy types of articles. Best to just follow normal procedure and avoid shortcuts. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks so much, Dennis. You have a gift for taking a complex issue and explaining in a way that is very easy to understand. I'll refer the other editors to this thread. Thanks, again. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 00:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, I finally found the policy about closing requested moves. ;) It clearly explains why participants in a move proposal discussion should never close it. Rule #1 says, "Don't close requested moves where you have participated in the move survey." In particular, read the "Who can close requested moves" section, which addresses the conflict of interest issues I alluded to previously. This is the particular policy I had been looking for. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 09:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you give your final thoughts?

Dennis, regarding the canvassing discussion at AN/I, can you please reply to Casprings about his intent to go back and message all the editors again. I gave my thoughts, but if you disagree with me please do not hesitate to say so in the discussion. I will defer to your judgement and experience. It appears we are very close to being able to close the thread. Thanks. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I replied before I saw this. Once the mistake is made, there is no way to really fix it as if it didn't happen. He acted in a timely way to try to fix the problem, and he has a legitimate need to notify people that participated. Since his actions since the mistake were brought to light have been proper, he first removed the offending parts, then he came and asked about a better templete, I think we should extend enough good faith and not interfere with it. He does have a right to post the templates if he is filing an RFC/U, and he did fix the problem post haste, and sanctions would be punitive since he was receptive to fixing the problem. No solution will undo the mistake to begin with, which is why canvassing is so hard to deal with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Haha, I think we crossed paths because when I went back to the AN/I, I saw your comment. In any case, I replied to what you just wrote. I commend Casprings for his quick action to accept responsibility and fix the problem, and he of course has every right to re-message everyone (in a proper manner), but my question is: Why? What's the point? I'm sure the vast majority of those editors never even saw the message. And even if they see it in their logs, so what? No big deal; the self-revert speaks for itself. Thanks, Dennis. I enjoy hearing your perspective on things. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Profile Defenders Deletion

Dennis it appears you have deleted a new noteworthy wikipedia page for profile defenders similar to a page up on wikipedia seen for Reputation Changer. The page added has all relevant and highly authoratative references where the reputation changer one appears to be nothing but self created press release links for references which are not credible as you know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeromekaram (talk • contribs) 04:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I have restored this, so if this should be deleted, how about using AFD. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Ping

G'day Dennis, could you have a look at this please if you get a chance? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like Reaper Eternal removed the report. We can't do a CU on just a single IP, per the privacy policy. At this point, I don't see enough evidence to able to take action just yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• There were actually five or six IPs (dynamic) all the same ISP in Belgrade, but I get the privacy issue. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I need a bit of help

Hi, I don't know you but Malleus suggested you were a nice person. Could you please review the history of George Marsh (martyr). I have attempted to remove a promotional reference for a video and the person who made the video has decided on revenge. J3Mrs (talk) 13:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I took a look, but it seems that Malleus is cleaning that article up. Ping me if that user continues to put back problem material and I will discuss it with them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Malleus is my guardian angel! Really he is. Thank you for looking and I will get back to you if needs be. Malleus is usually right about people. J3Mrs (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Ping and for information . Cheers J3Mrs (talk) 14:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

 In progress Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Blocked the old account two weeks, the other account (and a "sleeper" account) indefinitely for WP:sockpuppetry, at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/SPSutherland. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 15:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I really didn't set out to get anyone blocked but I suppose if I'd carried on reverting it would've been me. Thank you. I notice you have editor retention in your signature, this sort of incident is exactly the sort of thing that will drive me away one day. Thanks again. J3Mrs (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

This is why I both founded the Editor Retention project and work in SPI to prevent sockpuppeting (people using multiple accounts to pretend to be more than one person). We want to keep good people here, and getting rid of abusive people is just one of the tools we use to do so. Glad to help. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Question regarding SPI and Outing policy

Hi, I was reviewing Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/IronKnuckle/Archive based on something that popped up on my watchlist, and was just reading through the investigations. I notice you commented on one of the later IP investigations. I was wondering how SPI and WP:OUTING interact. It seems like identifying that a particular IP belongs to a sock is outing. I can see an argument that the disruptive behavior of the socks is more important than the outing, but would like some clarification or pointers to if there is established guidelines or policies in place for this.

I have had some editor interactions occasionally that I thought were IP socks, but I thought I had been shutdown by CU in the past on an outing basis. Some of those situations have occured again more recently, so I would like to know what guideline to follow. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Checkusers will not usually run a checkuser process to compare an IP to a user, due to the privacy policy, but as SPI clerks, connecting dots is part of what we do based on behavior. Our goals aren't to out someone, but to demonstrate abuse of multiple accounts. If you have evidence that a registered user is editing as an IP in an abuse manner (ie: removing CSD tags on an article that the reg'ed user created, double voting on an AFD with similar styles, etc) then you can file an SPI report, but you don't ask for a CU. CU will ONLY connect dots on registered user names, except in very, very unusual circumstances. Claiming that "User:Dennis Brown is really User:129.42.38.1 , so he must live in San Francisco and work for IBM" for example, is not something you do on a user or article talk page and may constitute "outing". You file instead and let us deal with it, where it will be done in the proper venue. And there has to be clear abuse. If I'm editing an article and then you see a stray IP in between edits and it is obviously me but there is no abuse, (no intent to deceive or misuse the IP account) then you just assume my login might have timed out, or I logged out then decided to make one last tweak. That isn't socking, that just happens. When I'm connecting an IP to a registered account, I'm using my best guess and no technical proof, but it isn't for the purpose of outing them, it is to prevent future abuse. In those cases, they are really outing themselves by choosing to abuse the system while logged out in a way that make it obvious it is them. But again, it is done in the right venue, and not just a random statement on a talk page. As a non-CU, I actually have a bit more freedom to connect those dots since there is no way I have access to technical data, which I think is why CUs will often leave blocking IPs completely to the clerks and admin, or they will just say they blocked a range of IPs, but won't say what that range is. So you are better if your report is short, has a few diffs, and don't ask for CU. Even with only reg'ed accounts, you really don't need to ask for CU in the form. If a clerk thinks it needs it, we will ask for it. This will make your report more likely to get attention quickly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the great reply. Very helpful. I usually ask for CU in my SPIs because it seems like more evidence is better than less, but I may refrain going forward. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I think sometimes once a clerk declines the request, they may get ignored a bit after that, which is why not asking is better. I often add the request and self-endorse, even providing extra diffs to make it more likely the CU will consider as it has clearer evidence. CUs are bound by very tight policy on when they can and can't run a checkuser, and it is difficult for the average user (or even a clerk) to always know where that line is. And I'm happy to help anytime. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Sunbeam Tiger (again)

When we've converted the remainder of the Series I table to prose and expanded the lead I reckon we'll just about have met the DYK three-times expansion, something I didn't think we'd ever do to be honest, so maybe that would be the time to go public and invite Andy for his input? GAN can be a pretty frustrating experience anyway, waiting weeks for a reviewer to turn up, so the more pre-GAN/pre-FAC help we have the better. Malleus Fatuorum 20:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• There are still a number of cites we need to fix, some I think got deleted in the process, but must be done prior to DYK. They are picky that way. I'm guessing we can get it ready in a few days, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  There are, and we will, but DYK doesn't care about that so long as the hook is cited. Given that even Drmies edited the article in mainspace today I'm getting a little nervous about not going public with our version sooner rather than later. Can we agree to move it over once we've we've met the three-times prose expansion? That still gives us a week to sort out anything else that might crop up at DYK. Malleus Fatuorum 21:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Not a problem. I left my good book at work tomorrow, but will get on sourcing first thing and should have it moved as early as lunch EST. The boss is out of town, so I shouldn't have too many interruptions, and digging up sourcing is something I am familiar with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:30, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  And I can waffle for England, so no problems about getting the article up to the DYK criterion. GA is obviously going to be a lot tougher, and I'd really like to take a car article to FAC. Not certain this would be the right choice for FA though, what do you think? Malleus Fatuorum 21:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  I've never done an FA, so I'm no expert, but I do know that sourcing this has been a challenge due to Chrysler virtually pretending it didn't happen, and the lack of books on the subject, searchable online or otherwise. Of course, it is narrow enough of a subject matter that I think we could exhaust all the available material to make it complete yet not too large. After GA, we can review and see how tall a hill that climb would be. I'm open to it, as I need to learn the FA process someday and I can't think of a better topic than cars. Your skills far outweigh mine when it comes to the work needed to reach FA, so not sure if I would just be dead weight. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  There are lots of articles I've worked on where I've thought that GA is as far as it can go, or as far as I want to take it, and the Tiger feels to me like one of those. I'm very pleased with the Manchester Martyrs for instance, but I'd never consider taking that to FAC. I'm really not sure why now I come to think of it, but I think that depth and quality of sourcing is at the heart of it. To take a car article to FAC we'd need to pick carefully I think. Malleus Fatuorum 22:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, having read the Manchester Martyrs article again I might one day consider launching it at FAC. IIRC I only started work on it as an example of the incompetence of William Calcraft as a hangman, and he's now a featured article. Maybe it's all about connections. I dunno. Malleus Fatuorum 22:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Just wanted to add this. I'm apparently #12 on the list of Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations, but of those ranked above me half are admins. Who'd have believed it. One day I'll be #1 of course, if I can ever find a way to nobble Ealdgyth. Malleus Fatuorum 22:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• The question is, do we choose the lowest hanging fruit, or the most interesting car? Some would be easy to source, like the Corvette, although you could easily write too much. The Corvair is an interesting topic, due to its uniqueness as well as Ralph Nader using it as the poster child for Unsafe at Any Speed. The MGB had strong appeal on both sides of the Atlantic, as did the TR7, Opel GT and Karmann Ghia. The DeLorean DMC-12 is an interesting car and story as well. Or reworking a more general topic like muscle car, which is broad enough that it would be a beast. Lots of interesting choices and even more I've not thought of. And BTW, being #12 is an impressive feat, as there are some prolific writers around here. I see Lord Emsworth has seen most of his fall by the wayside....odd. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  I had a TR7 myself, and still have an MGB, but I would really like to have had a Ford Mustang. There aren't so many of them over here, but they're an iconic car. The GT40 also comes to mind ... I wonder why all the cars that come to my mind are Fords? Malleus Fatuorum 23:15, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Kind of funny, I've always been a Chevy man myself. Would still love a 1969 Impala SS. I've owned a 69 four-door and a 68 Bel Air, also 4 doors. I owned 12 cars before I left high school, I would buy, fix up a bit and sell to make money. Totaled one. The Bel Air I owned less than an hour in 83. I think I bought it for $275 and sold it for $350 to my brother as a favor (He had sold me the 69 Firebird cheap). The Bel Air was clean, one owner and had a 327 and powerglide. I worked on that deal for two months, so the $75 hardly covered my time and gas, but he is family. I could have gotten $600 out of it to someone else. Worth $6000-8000 now. A 69 SS can run up to $30k or more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  It may be inaccurate, but the English perception of most American cars is that they handle like boats, and can't corner to save their lives. Malleus Fatuorum 23:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The old ones, yes, but big has its advantages. It is much easier to upgrade them to 4 wheel disc brakes, better suspensions, insanely large engines, etc. All that extra room makes the job easy with room to spare, and you can even use some truck parts like differentials, engines, transmissions, accessories, etc. Big block 454 Chevy engines are cheap and plentiful but they won't fit in an MGB. Then again, our rides weren't designed for twisty roads, they were designed for quarter mile racing. Straight line speed, off the line, tons of torque, and great for cruising, which used to be an American pastime. That is what makes the Tiger so unique, it was dripping in torque yet handled well, although not enough room for friends. Americans never "toured" as much as we "cruised". Again, part of the culture. You haven't lived until you've been 17 and driving an old four door Impala with 6 drunk friends with you, cruising the main drag and looking for trouble or a race with some other idiot. I have no regrets. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

We've obviously led very different lives Dennis. When I was 17 I was a mod, riding a chromed-up Lambretta. And I've just been staggered to find that we have an article on the Twisted Wheel Club, somewhere I spent many happy and oblivious weekends. Malleus Fatuorum 00:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Early 80s in high school, I worked 30 hours a week for $4.25 an hour after school doing the job no one would do for less, pot washer, so I had cash for gas and beer. You could buy old cars for $500 or less pretty easy. They were almost disposable at that price. I hung with the preppies and freaks (rich kids and pot smokers), although I was decidedly middle class. I was a rebel without a clue, but we partied hard. As for the Twisted Wheel Club, I didn't find any good photos under CC :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I used to serve what you'd call gas on weekends and evenings to pay for all my mod bling, but I don't regret a second of it. As for the Twisted Wheel, it was so dark in there that I doubt anyone could have found their camera if they'd had one. We only went there after the mainstream clubs had closed at 2:00 am, waiting for the bars to open later in the morning at Manchester Airport; you never pulled any women there ... I may have said too much ... Malleus Fatuorum 00:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

In an odd way, I really feel sorry for those who lived an "ordinary" life without a dysfunction or rebellion. I appreciate the stability and relative calmness in my life now but only because my first decade on my own was such a rollercoaster, as was the decade that preceded it. I'm grateful for the mistakes I made then, and for not needing to repeat them now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 01:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• "I used to think I was indecisive, now I'm not so sure." That Robson book I've discovered is an absolute goldmine, so much so that I may even have to buy it if I can't beg borrow or steal it from somewhere. So I'm beginning to think that the Tiger could be a good choice for an eventual tilt at FAC after all. In any event, I'm very confident we can get the readable prose size up to the required 12 kB by the end of the day, so hopefully you can do the move then. Malleus Fatuorum 12:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I've done a couple of small things. As to expanding how tight the engine was under the hood, I have very graphic quote on the talk page of the userfied version that may be worth using. I think it perfectly demonstrates how tight it was. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

    I've added a quote from Shelby about how tight a fit the engine was, but I'm sure we can find a place for the Clarke quote in the Production section. We're up to 11 kB now, so almost there in terms of prose size. Malleus Fatuorum 14:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

    • Ping me when you are a break point and I will hist-merge it and the talk page. This should be fun, I've only done hist-merges once or twice before, so hopefully I won't break the wiki. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

      I'm just about to take a break, so go for it now. Malleus Fatuorum 14:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

      •  Done I learned how to do that only by merging cases for sockpuppets. The talk page was a bit different, but it is done and the histories are all intact. Now I still start a discussion over there about possible hooks for DYK. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Protection Policy

You took part in a previous discussion on the protection policy talk page about the reference to "uncontroversial" edits. A survey is now in progress on that page in response to a request for comments. You may want to visit that talk page again and provide your input to try to obtain consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for the heads up. That is a tremendously important issue that affects all editors as well as editor retention in general. Admin are not "Super-Editors" nor granted any special privileges as editors by virtue of the admin bit, and I am hoping that a consensus will come to that same conclusion. I've commented at the RFC. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		We've had some robust discussions over the past couple of weeks, Dennis, but I respect that you're doing what you see as the best thing for the project. 80.174.78.102 (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you. That is more meaningful than you might realize. I'm certainly more flawed than the average person, but I really try hard to support ideas that keep the playing field level for all editors here, as part of editor retention and just to foster a more community-like and fair atmosphere. I've stored the original in my Ronco Barnstar Vault for save keeping. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Food for thought (re: parade shooting)

Hi Dennis. Hope you are doing well. I was just reading through the Parade shooting thread at AN and the related AfD. Of course the article doesn't really pass GNG (too recent, single event, blah blah blah), but I was thinking about it in other terms. Breaking news type articles always have this problem, but it is one area that many people enjoy contributing to. So I was thinking about it terms of editor retention. There are currently only a few areas where people are willing to write, find citations and general do what we are here for (creating a well-referenced encyclopedia). Breaking news is one of those, but it conflicts with many of our notability guidelines. That's troublesome as far as editor retention goes. I'm not expecting a solution or necessarily a response. It just crossed my mind as I was reading through the various discussions and thought I'd share it with you and the talk page stalkers here. I probably should have posted this at WER, but I posted here instead. Just something to think about, I guess. Cheers. 64.40.57.162 (talk) 02:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• It is a double edged sword. Breaking news definitely brings us new editors, but it also brings them into the worse of what we have to offer, contentious articles. Their first taste of being an editor then is an article that ends up being semi- or full protected, with lots of arguments on the talk page, debates, sometimes blocks or other sanctions. It is like giving a tourist a drive around town, during a hurricane. The other issue is that they aren't up to speed on policy and end up having their edits deleted or changed instantly, often getting bitten in the process by someone who is focusing more on keep the general peace than greeting a new editor. I can imagine that many would come, edit, and just leave again after finding the experience "interesting" but too stressful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Follow-up

I contacted you a couple days ago to ask if you could direct me to any policies that address editors closing move request discussions in which they've participated. You said, "Policy doesn't spell it out in so many words..." But I've discovered that it actually does. Just wanted to make you are of it. I explained it in the original thread, but I wasn't sure if you would look back that far on your talk page to notice it. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• I had missed this (still getting used to the new notifications system) but glad to see my instinct was right. Thanks for the heads up! Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • You're very welcome. Have a great day. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 14:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Editor Retention

A while ago we had a conversation about editor retention. One thing I don't think we discussed was the roled Cyber Bullying and Cyber Stalking plays in editors quitting wikipedia. Because if you're a victim of such abuse, its been my experience over the last year there is an unwillingness for admins to look at such problems, they make a presumption that both sides are equally to blame and sanction both victim and culprit. Anyway, whilst I have come close several times (and meant it at the time) I have finally had it. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Its hard to voice an opinion on the general topic of cyber bullying, and you didn't provide links for me to review any particular case. It isn't a term I use around here very often, and I see it thrown around here pretty often, including in some circumstances where it might apply, and others where it really doesn't. Sometimes people have heated discussions, or someone is just flat rude, which I don't consider cyber bullying as much as it being, well, rude. If someone is WP:HOUNDING you, ANI is the place to go. Without more information, I'm not sure what else to say. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) WCM, this kind of thing happens in school. Generally, who ever is to blame, the solution is to separate both parties - and that's what's being suggested. it doesn't mean you have to give up your studies. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Not so simple. Expert bullies and stalkers are subtle, underhand and two-faced and attempt to demean or humilate in ways that are difficult to document. Cordial communication with others masks the nastiness. There's a lot of it about. J3Mrs (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

WCM has retired and added a wikibreak enforcer as his last edit. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That's hardly conclusive. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• It's difficult to come in uninformed at the 11th hour and change the outcome of an unfortunate situation. It is difficult enough if you are along for the ride. I still don't have all the facts (I'm currently pulled in a dozen different directions on different projects) but I hope he takes a break, reassesses the situation, and reconsiders the retirement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)