Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:44, 24 May 2013

One month later...

I wasn't going to bother you until now because you said you were busy. It has now been over a month and I'd like it if you would check my contributions and decide if you will support my ban being lifted. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reason that you have not given me a reply hours later despite that you were editing Misplaced Pages at the time I created this section and you have replied to other sections here? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:19, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, because I'm not a bloody jukebox, you can't just stick a quarter in me and have me pop out a song. How I prioritize replies is my affair. Asking me to explain my reasons is quite rude, and doesn't help your case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)This is just a guess, but with limited time to spend on Misplaced Pages, perhaps Dennis decided to do something he wants to do rather than answer your demand for attention. Gtwfan52 (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Harassing the person from whom you seek help rarely inclines them to give that help. LadyofShalott 23:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Sorry friend, I didn't mean to offend you. I can see how my words could have made me sound dryly sarcastic, but it was actually just a straight forward question. Last we talked you wanted to wait until the month was complete and said, When and if the time comes, I will then. If you're still busy, you just had to say so. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
    • (restored deleted comments) I expected to look at all your contribs this evening, which isn't a small task, but other things that were more urgent (ie: needed a reply now) came up. To be clear, I don't answer in the order I get questions, plus I get email requests as well, so I must prioritize. It will likely be tomorrow before I can consider. I'm also still feeling quite ill from a respiratory infection, and just took enough drugs to down an elephant, so will likely not do any work that needs "judgement" for the rest of the evening, if I do anything at all. It is a shame so much came up, I just got a new book in the mail and hoped to actually work on Tri-Five, something I've not been able to work on for months. But coming across impatient and demanding isn't doing yourself a favor here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
      • I don't feel impatient, just wanted an explaination. Again, I asked Is there a reason in a straight forward tone. Thank you for giving me that and I hope you feel better. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
        • And I don't think you realize how poorly that came across, but it did. I'm not the only one who noticed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
          • I clearly acknowledged my words sounded dryly sarcastic. I like you too and wouldn't do something to scold you. That's why I left you alone until your requested time. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the time to briefly review your edits over the last month, almost all of your edits have been in your sandbox, and they have all consisted of things you are topic banned for. Filing ANI reports that are found to have no merit, and the general impatience you shown during the entire duration of your topic ban are not reassuring. You don't seem to "get it" as to why you were topic banned to begin with, and you have simply moved it over to your sandbox, and focus only on BLP and Armenian related topics there. The topic ban wasn't a punishment that you have to wait out, it was a tool to get you to work on other areas instead of those banned topics. It was to prevent disruption and allow you to continue editing on different topics. If you were working significantly in other areas, I wouldn't mind a little dabbling in the areas you were banned from in your sandbox, but you don't seem to understand or accept the reasons for the topic ban to start with. So no, I can't support lifting the topic ban because your own actions are loudly telling me that you are likely going to storm back into those areas and repeat the same mistakes that got you topic banned to begin with. Based on my experiences with topic bans, I think the odds of you getting it lifted at this time are essentially zero. Even if I were to support, and begged and pleaded, I am confident that my voice would be drowned out in a sea of opposition. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You knew I was editing in my sandbox this whole time! You talked about it at the same time you recommended me to wait a month and even told me it would be neater to make seperate sandboxes. You don't seem to get that topic bans from BLPs make it impossible to edit most articles on Misplaced Pages. These types of articles are the one's I'm here to edit. At no point and time had anyone said I should work on other articles. What in my sandbox tells you I will make the same mistakes again? Did I use Twitter anywhere? If not, it seems you never had any intention of supporting a ban lift. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I knew you were working in your sandbox, I didn't know that you were only working there. I don't go around monitoring your ever edit, I have other things to do. If you want to show the community that you can edit and get along with others, you have to wander outside of your own sandbox. Otherwise, you are just trying to "sit out" the "punishment", and again, it isn't a punishment. The topic ban wasn't based on Twitter, Twitter was a single element that demonstrated a larger problem, so simply not using twitter as a source isn't going to fix the problem, because that isn't "the" problem. And I didn't have an intention of supporting a ban lift, nor had I promised I would even participate, I only said I would be open minded to consider it. I've been very clear on that, and would not ever promise a result before you put forth the effort. Besides, I don't have the authority to lift any ban, I'm just one voice in that discussion, nothing more or less. It isn't me you have to convince, it is the community as a whole. I didn't impose the ban on you, I was just one voice in a discussion, a unanimous discussion if memory serves me right. You can go ahead and ask to have it lifted today if you like, and I will be glad to simply avoid the discussion. I don't recommend it, but you are free to do as you please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Define "significantly" editing. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at your last 250 edits, which started April 13th, exactly a month go and just after the topic ban was put in place, here is what I find:

145 are in your sandbox

2 are other parts of your user space

52 are on user talk pages, 21 of which are here on my talk page

37 are in Misplaced Pages: space (Village pump, ANI, etc.)

That adds up to 236 out of 250 edits, meaning you have about 14 article edits in the last 30 days. 5.6% of your contribs. Less than one every two days. By any definition you choose to use, that is not significant article contribution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Then when you said "you were only working there", you were a liar.

I love how you are just suddenly saying I should have contributed elsewhere now. Why wouldn't you say it before? Because this was a trap I bet. I didn't know you were that shady. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 17:12, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)There's an old saying: When you've dug yourself a deep hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 17:16, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• This isn't the first time you've called me liar, even after giving you extraordinary proof. All I can say is that you probably should find someone else to help you, as I've done everything I can, and I'm out of ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Why did you not tell me from the beginning to contribute to other articles? Where does it say I should contribute to other articles? You're certainly not a truth-ar. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? It was a topic ban, not a block. If they wanted you to not edit at all, you would have been blocked. The entire reason, the only purpose of a topic ban is to allow the person to edit other articles and demonstrate they can be trusted to eventually return to the topic they were banned from. WP:Topic ban covers this. You weren't even supposed to be editing BLP and Armenian related issues in your sandbox, but it was something I stuck my neck out and essentially condoned in addition to working on other articles and demonstrating you can do so without controversy. You seem to be missing the entire reason that the topic ban was given here. I've tolerated being called a liar multiple times, and your impatience all the while I have volunteered to try to help you. I was not obligated to do anything, yet I've tried to help during your block and during your topic ban, but you won't listen, you just demand, pout, and make personal attacks. You are on your own now, friend, you need to get someone else to help you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Dennis, I would ask you to please reconsider. Yes, it is true, TheShadowCrow can be rude sometimes. As you say, we are all human. We make mistakes. But please understand that he just wants to be able to edit again pages that interest him. TSC has never vandalized any articles. He has made valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages, and you can see from his sandbox that he plans to keep making good edits in the future. Topic bans are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. He needs your help. Please, give him another chance. Thank you ... ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your concern and I'm usually the one pushing for lifting of sanctions, but you should probably know there is a bit more than meets the eye here. While he was previously blocked, I offered some guidance to him and have been watching the issue for some time. I supported the topic ban originally simply because he was going to be indef blocked otherwise. I've tried to be supportive since and offer guidance along the way as well, but keep in mind that I'm busy with a great many tasks here, so I don't follow every edit as they happen. The rudeness isn't the issue (look at my talk page archives User_talk:Dennis_Brown/Archive_21#Corrupt_librals.3F, if I was walking away due to rudeness, I would have done it then.) I haven't committed to opposing and I expected to not !vote at the discussion if one was had because I couldn't support. If I seem frustrated (and I am) it isn't because I've been called names. You've seen me called names before, that alone doesn't bother me. It was that I don't think I can help him, after I've tried several times. His topic ban wasn't my doing, and I'm generally against topic and interaction bans to begin with except where they will prevent a block. I am only one person, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to undo his topic ban. Your !vote counts exactly the same as mine in a discussion. Even if I wanted to unilaterally lift the ban, I can't. I don't have that authority, it was community imposed and only the community can lift it. Being an admin is fraught with lots of rules, and I've already stuck my neck out by condoning his using the sandbox to violate the topic ban (that bold act alone is enough reason for me to get yelled at or even sanctioned by the community). I've already gone out on a limb here. The reason I'm backing away isn't because I'm mad at him, it is simply because I can't help him, no matter how hard I've tried. I've failed in this, so it is better if someone else tries. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Further proof that Oscar Wilde was right: No good deed goes unpunished. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 14:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• One quick note: If he complies with the expectations of the community and demonstrates that removing the restrictions is worth the risk, I will still support. I just don't think we are close to there yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I won't complain, I'll edit some other articles and then appeal in a week or two. I am sorry if I offended you, though that was never my intention.

I feel like I'll continue to be a victim of the Admin lynch mob even if this ban is removed though. I am thinking of appealing the AA2 ban soon, and I see no reason why it won't be lifted since it's been many months since I've had issues on those subjects, yet I can't help but wonder if the Admins will rush to put it back on the moment I have a simple edit conflict (which are inevitable; most Admins have them daily).

I just noticed this guy has been periodically vandalizing articles for four years, yet not a damn thing has been done about it once. Why do Admins abuse their powers on people like me instead of doing their job and punishing people like that instead? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Admins do not decide your fate here, fellow editors do. An admin's !vote or voice counts no more than any other editors, and non-admin outnumber admin 100 to 1 or better. The ban wasn't imposed by admin, it was imposed by editors. Admin are left with the decidedly unpleasant task of simply enforcing the will of the community, whether we agree with it or not. When I discuss in a topic, I do so an an editor, not an admin. Same when I edit an article, I am just another editor. Being an admin sounds like a lost more fun than it actually is, but the reality is that we are just editors with a few extra tools. We aren't the bosses, even if a few act like they are from time to time. And no offense was taken. You're mad, I understand. I still have no choice but to tell you the truth as I see it, even if it is unpleasant news. We might disagree on things, but I won't lie to you. I do think you need someone to mentor you a bit, and it looks like DanielTom might be a good candidate. We all have mentors, we all mentor. There are two people that I now consider my mentors here at Misplaced Pages, one for my admin work, one for my work as editor. I act as mentor for a few people as well, even if we don't use that term formally. There is no shame in being mentored. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis. Just a small note: your vote actually matters more (or, I should say, carries more weight) than that of regular editors, such as myself. As you know, you have many friends among admins, you are influential, and most people who read AN are already familiar with you and respect you. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best. Yours, always ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you may be oversimplifying it. If you provide a good rationale in your !vote, backed by facts, and I don't, then your vote should be given more weight. When closing AFDs and other process, I do not give anyone's opinion more weight because they are an admin, and frankly, the best participants are usually not admin. I would like to think that my opinions are given proper weight because I don't just blurt out my opinion, but try to back it with solid logic backed by policy, and try to always do just that. I can only speak for myself, although I don't think I'm alone, and not all discussions are closed by admin. Most of the best and brightest around Misplaced Pages are not admin, and as an admin, I'm personally not that impressed that someone else is, too. I don't expect you've looked, but I've been very outspoken about admin abuses, authored policy proposals to make admin more accountable to the community (WP:RAS, the current discussion at WT:PP, where Bwilkins is taking the lead on reducing the power of admin to edit fully protected articles), and reducing the "power" in the admin bit, even by breaking apart the tools themselves. You and I might have different ideas about where to draw the line on "civility" (I am notoriously lax about enforcing it with everyone equally), but you would probably be surprised at how active I've been in working with actual policy changes to reduce the gap between editor and admin, in spite of the claims of a few. Things and people are not always what they seem. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:35, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, while there is alot of great information in the above for all us stalkers to learn from, I just want to pass along something Ive noticed. In your effort to be best admin that you can (and you are doing an admirable job) you are wasting an inordinate amount of your precious time answering silly questions. And they usually come from some editor that is slightly or overly critical of something you have done. In RL, I have had Art Gallery presentations, with dozens of supporters at a gala. But I will ignore them all and spend hours with the one critic who doesnt "understand" my work. Ihardlythink answering every query is in the Admin Rule Book. You will always have critics. Trying to appease them or explain yourself to them is a lost cause. ```Buster Seven Talk 11:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Sunbeam Tiger (again)

When we've converted the remainder of the Series I table to prose and expanded the lead I reckon we'll just about have met the DYK three-times expansion, something I didn't think we'd ever do to be honest, so maybe that would be the time to go public and invite Andy for his input? GAN can be a pretty frustrating experience anyway, waiting weeks for a reviewer to turn up, so the more pre-GAN/pre-FAC help we have the better. Malleus Fatuorum 20:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• There are still a number of cites we need to fix, some I think got deleted in the process, but must be done prior to DYK. They are picky that way. I'm guessing we can get it ready in a few days, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  There are, and we will, but DYK doesn't care about that so long as the hook is cited. Given that even Drmies edited the article in mainspace today I'm getting a little nervous about not going public with our version sooner rather than later. Can we agree to move it over once we've we've met the three-times prose expansion? That still gives us a week to sort out anything else that might crop up at DYK. Malleus Fatuorum 21:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Not a problem. I left my good book at work tomorrow, but will get on sourcing first thing and should have it moved as early as lunch EST. The boss is out of town, so I shouldn't have too many interruptions, and digging up sourcing is something I am familiar with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:30, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  And I can waffle for England, so no problems about getting the article up to the DYK criterion. GA is obviously going to be a lot tougher, and I'd really like to take a car article to FAC. Not certain this would be the right choice for FA though, what do you think? Malleus Fatuorum 21:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  I've never done an FA, so I'm no expert, but I do know that sourcing this has been a challenge due to Chrysler virtually pretending it didn't happen, and the lack of books on the subject, searchable online or otherwise. Of course, it is narrow enough of a subject matter that I think we could exhaust all the available material to make it complete yet not too large. After GA, we can review and see how tall a hill that climb would be. I'm open to it, as I need to learn the FA process someday and I can't think of a better topic than cars. Your skills far outweigh mine when it comes to the work needed to reach FA, so not sure if I would just be dead weight. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  There are lots of articles I've worked on where I've thought that GA is as far as it can go, or as far as I want to take it, and the Tiger feels to me like one of those. I'm very pleased with the Manchester Martyrs for instance, but I'd never consider taking that to FAC. I'm really not sure why now I come to think of it, but I think that depth and quality of sourcing is at the heart of it. To take a car article to FAC we'd need to pick carefully I think. Malleus Fatuorum 22:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, having read the Manchester Martyrs article again I might one day consider launching it at FAC. IIRC I only started work on it as an example of the incompetence of William Calcraft as a hangman, and he's now a featured article. Maybe it's all about connections. I dunno. Malleus Fatuorum 22:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Just wanted to add this. I'm apparently #12 on the list of Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations, but of those ranked above me half are admins. Who'd have believed it. One day I'll be #1 of course, if I can ever find a way to nobble Ealdgyth. Malleus Fatuorum 22:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• The question is, do we choose the lowest hanging fruit, or the most interesting car? Some would be easy to source, like the Corvette, although you could easily write too much. The Corvair is an interesting topic, due to its uniqueness as well as Ralph Nader using it as the poster child for Unsafe at Any Speed. The MGB had strong appeal on both sides of the Atlantic, as did the TR7, Opel GT and Karmann Ghia. The DeLorean DMC-12 is an interesting car and story as well. Or reworking a more general topic like muscle car, which is broad enough that it would be a beast. Lots of interesting choices and even more I've not thought of. And BTW, being #12 is an impressive feat, as there are some prolific writers around here. I see Lord Emsworth has seen most of his fall by the wayside....odd. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  I had a TR7 myself, and still have an MGB, but I would really like to have had a Ford Mustang. There aren't so many of them over here, but they're an iconic car. The GT40 also comes to mind ... I wonder why all the cars that come to my mind are Fords? Malleus Fatuorum 23:15, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Kind of funny, I've always been a Chevy man myself. Would still love a 1969 Impala SS. I've owned a 69 four-door and a 68 Bel Air, also 4 doors. I owned 12 cars before I left high school, I would buy, fix up a bit and sell to make money. Totaled one. The Bel Air I owned less than an hour in 83. I think I bought it for $275 and sold it for $350 to my brother as a favor (He had sold me the 69 Firebird cheap). The Bel Air was clean, one owner and had a 327 and powerglide. I worked on that deal for two months, so the $75 hardly covered my time and gas, but he is family. I could have gotten $600 out of it to someone else. Worth $6000-8000 now. A 69 SS can run up to $30k or more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  It may be inaccurate, but the English perception of most American cars is that they handle like boats, and can't corner to save their lives. Malleus Fatuorum 23:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The old ones, yes, but big has its advantages. It is much easier to upgrade them to 4 wheel disc brakes, better suspensions, insanely large engines, etc. All that extra room makes the job easy with room to spare, and you can even use some truck parts like differentials, engines, transmissions, accessories, etc. Big block 454 Chevy engines are cheap and plentiful but they won't fit in an MGB. Then again, our rides weren't designed for twisty roads, they were designed for quarter mile racing. Straight line speed, off the line, tons of torque, and great for cruising, which used to be an American pastime. That is what makes the Tiger so unique, it was dripping in torque yet handled well, although not enough room for friends. Americans never "toured" as much as we "cruised". Again, part of the culture. You haven't lived until you've been 17 and driving an old four door Impala with 6 drunk friends with you, cruising the main drag and looking for trouble or a race with some other idiot. I have no regrets. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

We've obviously led very different lives Dennis. When I was 17 I was a mod, riding a chromed-up Lambretta. And I've just been staggered to find that we have an article on the Twisted Wheel Club, somewhere I spent many happy and oblivious weekends. Malleus Fatuorum 00:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Early 80s in high school, I worked 30 hours a week for $4.25 an hour after school doing the job no one would do for less, pot washer, so I had cash for gas and beer. You could buy old cars for $500 or less pretty easy. They were almost disposable at that price. I hung with the preppies and freaks (rich kids and pot smokers), although I was decidedly middle class. I was a rebel without a clue, but we partied hard. As for the Twisted Wheel Club, I didn't find any good photos under CC :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I used to serve what you'd call gas on weekends and evenings to pay for all my mod bling, but I don't regret a second of it. As for the Twisted Wheel, it was so dark in there that I doubt anyone could have found their camera if they'd had one. We only went there after the mainstream clubs had closed at 2:00 am, waiting for the bars to open later in the morning at Manchester Airport; you never pulled any women there ... I may have said too much ... Malleus Fatuorum 00:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

In an odd way, I really feel sorry for those who lived an "ordinary" life without a dysfunction or rebellion. I appreciate the stability and relative calmness in my life now but only because my first decade on my own was such a rollercoaster, as was the decade that preceded it. I'm grateful for the mistakes I made then, and for not needing to repeat them now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 01:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• "I used to think I was indecisive, now I'm not so sure." That Robson book I've discovered is an absolute goldmine, so much so that I may even have to buy it if I can't beg borrow or steal it from somewhere. So I'm beginning to think that the Tiger could be a good choice for an eventual tilt at FAC after all. In any event, I'm very confident we can get the readable prose size up to the required 12 kB by the end of the day, so hopefully you can do the move then. Malleus Fatuorum 12:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I've done a couple of small things. As to expanding how tight the engine was under the hood, I have very graphic quote on the talk page of the userfied version that may be worth using. I think it perfectly demonstrates how tight it was. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

    I've added a quote from Shelby about how tight a fit the engine was, but I'm sure we can find a place for the Clarke quote in the Production section. We're up to 11 kB now, so almost there in terms of prose size. Malleus Fatuorum 14:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

    • Ping me when you are a break point and I will hist-merge it and the talk page. This should be fun, I've only done hist-merges once or twice before, so hopefully I won't break the wiki. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

      I'm just about to take a break, so go for it now. Malleus Fatuorum 14:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

      •  Done I learned how to do that only by merging cases for sockpuppets. The talk page was a bit different, but it is done and the histories are all intact. Now I still start a discussion over there about possible hooks for DYK. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• An observation of mine; why are the technical specs hatted by default? It's probably been discussed somewhere, but it is incredibly inconsistent with every other article that I've seen. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  Are we looking at the same article? Eric Corbett 20:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm referring to the "Further information" bit of the infobox - I've never seen these hatted/collapsed/whatever anywhere. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  It's a fairly recent innovation. You can see other examples at Little Moreton Hall, Montacute House, and Pendine Museum of Speed amongst others. Eric Corbett 20:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• At the risk of sounding like a dick: none of those are automobiles. I'm struggling to see the point of having the collapsing in place. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  Obviously they aren't automobiles, but why does that matter? Most of the automobile articles are shit anyway. You'll see the point if you uncollapse the infobox, when it bleeds into the following section. Take a look at Lamborghini Countach for instance; that's crying out for a collapsed infobox. Eric Corbett 21:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Part of the problem is whatever they've done to the layout recently has fucked things up a bit - images decide to randomly show up wherever they want at times, regardless of where you put them. *shrugs* The infoboxes are much worse than they were before for that reason. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 06:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Editor Retention

Precious again

reading, waiting, then judging
Thank you for living what you advise, "reading it, waiting 24 hours, then judging", for defending editors who are hurt, for practising mentorship, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

-Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 124th recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, repeated in br'erly style. You are even more awesome now, by the editor retention initiative and your willingness to listen in collaborations, as to referencing style for the Automobile Culture, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for this and everything else you do, Gerda. That is very kind of you, but if anyone deserves recognition, it is Malleus. He has been spent a great deal of time willingly mentoring me in finer points of creating GA class articles, making me a better editor and more empathetic admin in the process. He did most of the hard work teaching, I just had to listen. We are working on our 3rd GA together now, and I'm richer from the experience. Be sure and save a Yogo sapphire for him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:14, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The Malleus day will come soon, 31 May, just check the archive ;) - and don't underestimate listening, look at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

... or Talk:Richard Wagner ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

ANI

Crickets at ANI. What happens now? DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 20:45, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Nothing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:50, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
  • You've made your case already. I don't recommend getting into a dialog, personally. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:35, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Duly noted. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 23:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Not that I need to say anything, obviously -- that diatribe, complete with a few additional personal attacks, illustrates my point better than I could. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 23:35, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

If I can bite my tongue and resist the urge to agree with his final statement, surely you can as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Yep, that was the hardest part to resist. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 23:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

You realize I can see this, right? It solidly proves to me that you all band together. Congratulations, DoctorJoe. So much for a fair community.Zabadu (talk) 02:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

There are many thousands of editors at Misplaced Pages, the very idea that they all are banding together is laughable. You can't even get three to agree on toppings for a pizza. The reason that no one has replied at the ANI report is two-fold: First, you left a wall of text that is hard to read and is a bit on the "rant" side, thus uninviting. Second, they can see that I have dealt with the problem before it got there. If they agreed with you, they would have spoken up and we could have discussed it. The fact that two whole days have gone by without a peep should tell you something. You violated a policy, I did the most gentle option I had as an admin, to give only a simple warning. What you thought was an outing violation by him wasn't. He was a bit rude, he acknowledged it. As for our comments above, you should develop a sense of humor. Considering my talk page is watched by almost 300 people, this is a terrible place to hide a comment, so obviously no one was trying to hide any comments. I know you find it hard to believe, but when no one agrees with you, 'no one, then there always exists the possibility that you are mistaken. And by the way, you should log in when you edit. Leaving messages on an admin board both as signed in and as an IP might give the impression that you are more than one person, which itself is a violation of policy. So was the fact that you didn't notify him or me about your report at ANI, forcing me to tell him. I overlooked those because I believe (just like with the outing) that you weren't intentionally trying to break policy, you just don't understand the policies. That is fine, it takes time and I understand. I'm a patient man. Of course, I'm not the only administrator here, so your mileage with the others will vary. We aren't a very cohesive bunch, in spite of your first impression. At this point, I would advise you to drop the stick, but ultimately the choice is yours. Dennis Brown - |2¢] - © - @ - Join WER 02:32, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd be glad to let it go, but I see DoctorJoeE continuing to post snide comments about me like some inside joke. He did not "acknowledge" being rude, he stated he did it at the spur of the moment. THREE times. The fact that an editor DID support my statements about him were followed IMMEDIATELY by a friend of Doctor shows that he is monitoring every word. As for the wall of text, I can't help if what I quote is a wall of text. It is what it is. I didn't receive notification he posted about me either. Zabadu (talk) 02:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

He didn't have to notify because he can to my page. I'm one individual. If you look at the ANI page, you must notify as that is filing a formal complaint against someone. Again, I just did it for you, but you need to remember next time. And the first "snide" comment here was actually mine, to be honest, and it wasn't mean to be snide, but the way you said your original quote just begged for a comical reply. It was humorous. He just called your comments a "diatribe", which it did resemble, to be honest. You went a little overboard. Good grief man, we take the articles seriously but not ourselves. We are just humans, nothing more or less. We are going to bump heads every now and then, get a little pissy, even a little rude from time to time. As long as it doesn't go over into personal attacks (ie: its a little rude to say "that was stupid", it is a personal attack to say "You are a fucking idiot". We should avoid both, but there is a distinction.) then you just have to roll with it a little. Had you not made such a big deal of the issue, it would have been easier for me to say more, but once you blew it out of proportion, well, having to deal with that seemed punishment enough. And please do read WP:diff. We avoid copy/pasting because it wrecks the flow of conversations. Once you get the hang of using diffs, it is pretty easy. Basically it is in the form of when you want to create a diff, then it looks like this, just a blip. Easy peasy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 03:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Appreciate the pointers. I look at the instructions and they confuse the hell out of me, which is why I don't make my own pages or do anything but contribute to the talk pages and make suggestions. I only had one "in red" instruction at the top that said I had to notify the subject - my error in assuming that was you, not "all of you". I guess your idea of "blowing it out of proportion" and mine are different. I used his own quotes in my responses as a defense to why I said what I said. Obviously, you guys don't care. Myself and one other editor see him for what he is and does - we can't be the only ones. But even in his last comment on his talk page, he calls me a troll again - ("now that the trolls are gone"). He's the one that continually throws rocks and then comes to you all innocent. It's frustrating. But your comments are noted and I will read what you instructed. But my statement still stands - it really feels like a little club here that encourages editors to do as they please.Zabadu (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I do care, but at the same I'm aware of the the fact that I can't micromanage what others think or every word they say. I'm just saying in the larger scope of things, calling someone a troll is rude but is a small thing. You should see my talk page archives, I've been called worse more than once and I just blow it off and calmly stay on topic. I am not defined by other's comments. That said, User:DoctorJoeE could probably dispense with using the world troll, and you need to dial back the aggressiveness and intensity a few notches. At least if you want to get along. Discuss more, argue less. There is an art to disagreeing without being disagreeable and the aggressiveness of your tone just asks for comment in some ways. You have to compromise a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 09:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, everything is gone now - he's allowed to do that, I'm not. And you've closed the discussion, so in the end, he wins and will continue to do this to others. Oh well, so much for the little guy. Intense I may be, but nothing in my discussion was meant to be aggressive. Apparently emoticons are important here. And yes, I could have just blown off being called a troll once, but three times? Anyhoo, thanks for the tips and discussion. Sorry DoctorJoe dragged you into it.Zabadu (talk) 14:45, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you in an editor retention mood?

Sometimes things get out of hand here. We have a new user whose inexperienced behaviour has mightily pissed off the great and good(!) here, but whose intent seems only to be the improvement of WIkipedia. Now, to be fair, he has been abrasive. Equally he has been treated as if he is a halfwit. The outcome is here, and there is a potentially good conversation on my own talk page. I'm hoping you may have oil to pour on troubled waters. He appears to be a substantial academic subject expert having problems in a weird and unfamiliar pond. Such editors wpuld be a loss to WIkipedia, and losing them is a poor comment on Misplaced Pages in the wider community. Fiddle Faddle 13:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• Funny, I was just in the middle of reading that exact same ANI report, reviewing the AFD and contrib history and wondering what, if anything, can be done when you dropped this note. They don't seem very receptive, but it might just be an issue of methods. I'm at work, so my availability is a bit spotty, but I will keep reviewing and I may attempt a discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• All I can think of is to take the moral high ground and befriend the editor in question. We gain much by having such people aboard. We lose a lot by their being so pissed off they leave in high dudgeon. He is not yet acting in advice, but I am sure he is, at last, hearing it. You are more than welcome to stalk my own talk page if you think chatting there would bear useful fruit. I'm adopting my usual approach based on my own (unique?) perception of Misplaced Pages, one I do not expect you to agree with :) Fiddle Faddle 13:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Wow -- this Tim Trent bloke seems like a really wise, level-headed person; you can actually sense the calm and serenity radiating from his posts. These are the sort of folks that restore my faith in the viability of this enterprise. One quote from his page that I will lodge permanently in my frontal cortex (with attribution, of course): "The only thing to take personally on Misplaced Pages is praise, you know. All else is random noise." Well said, and thank you (and yes, I understand that you wrote it with tongue firmly planted in cheek); I've experienced some "random noise" recently, so your timing was excellent. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 14:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko

I deliberately made a point of not reading the other responses before weighing in with my own position. I am happy to see, after the fact, that we share an opinion. When I read what Kumioko wants to do, I wanted to enable it, but I am not comfortable with handing out the block tool. I know we have been down this road before, and stopped short of doing anything, but I trust Kumioko editing protected templates. I didn't know about the AWB limitation, and frankly, it would scare the heck out of me to tough anything that involved 100K articles all at once, but he's more qualified than I am to do it. I'm not sure this incident alone is enough to restart the conversation, but it deserves to be a strong data point when it does get restarted.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) Personally, I'm more concerned about giving him the deletion tool, but that's to one side. The problem is that the editprotected right is bundled in the admin toolkit with no way to separate it; right now it's not technically possible to grant someone the editprotected right without giving them the rest of the toolkit. This would require dev intervention to change (not a big deal for them, it's just a simple configuration change, but it's still a change we need a dev for). So, it's not really possible to make an exception for just Kumioko because we'd need to have some kind of consensus for it to get the devs to act, and I don't think a community-wide consensus for an exception like this is gonna fly. We're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm sure we won't be making an exception for any single editor, but along with the recent removal of some of the Bureaucrats rights, it shows we may need to realign the tools. Of course, last time I mentioned that, I got blown out of the water. As I've said before, people love to bitch about our administrative system almost as much as they love opposing any change to it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I really don't understand what all this reluctance to unbundle the admin tools is about. I would've thought that my proposal to unbundle autopatolled would be fairly uncontroversial, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with being an admin. But apparently not. I seem to remember a proposal for the editprotected right going much the same way. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

      And why should I have to keep asking for admin help to do uncontroversial moves? Malleus Fatuorum 14:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

      Well, that specific example makes a little bit of sense, as moving things on top of other pages could be abused as a way to delete things without the deletion tool (since moving a page on top of another page deletes the target page). But in general, yeah. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Remember OWN of policy? You're seeing it in action. Too many people have too much vested in the current way of doing things. No matter how much sense it makes given the expansion of things here to break up the kit in some way, those with OWN will always stand against it. I suspect some of them have become vested enough that the concept of somehow "devaluing" the Admin set (and some may actually see it that way) might cause them physical pain. Intothatdarkness 14:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • That is kind of my point. I would have no issue handing you the tools to do moves and merges. Frankly, it would be tremendously helpful, like we just got through doing on the Sunbeam Tiger article. Having to track down an unoccupied and willing admin slows down good work. Whether it was given like Rollbacker, or at RfX with a simple mechanism for removing the bit (ie: WP:AN discussion), the downside and risk is pretty low. Of course, the real issue (and stickler) is finding a way to do that without giving access to view deleted contribs, which is the issue that WMF has opined on, rather rudely I might add. As for the "value" of the admin bit, I still don't get a discount on coffee nor has it made my penis larger, but I suppose others put more stock in the cache it grants. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

        I'm not being critical of Writ Keeper, but his response really does typify the problem here. Does anyone really believe that I'd be likely to abuse the ability to move pages to underhandedly delete pages? Seriously? Malleus Fatuorum 14:23, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

        Dennis, it seems like you're trying to personalizing a generic situation. YOU may not have OWN of some aspects of policy, but there are folks who clearly do, and they tend to move to block or stall changes that impact those areas of policy. In some cases they're admins, in others I'm sure they're not. But you should never underestimate the defensiveness that can be provoked if you try to change something that people are vested in....(orange bar of death, anyone?) Intothatdarkness 14:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm often reminded of my own naïveté in thinking that good ideas should win on merit alone. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:37, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

"I still don't get a discount on coffee nor has it made my penis larger"... the real reason for the downturn in RFAs is finally voiced. Zad68 14:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the real problem is that people are too used to thinking adversarially (I wish there was a better wikilink for that). I doubt that anybody thinks that you personally would abuse a pagemove tool to delete pages. But the problem is that people would think that giving you the tool would open the door for others who might. It seems to me that user right changes are evaluated from a theoretical perfect-adversary standpoint, where the primary concern is "what damage could this do if a hypothetical, perfectly knowledgeable, perfectly malicious person were to gain access to it?" There's no real thought given to what damage would actually be caused. There is an example of this in my autopatrolled RfC; people keep nattering on about how it will increase the NPP backlogs. Well, theoretically it could, but realistically it won't, since all current admins would be grandfathered in and any new admin who needs it could apply for it just like any other editor, and if they don't need it, then they don't affect the backlog either way.The problem is that people don't get past the "theoretically it could" bit, and they judge based on that. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:39, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Everyone knows that we admin are perfect at article creation and don't need to learn anything else about editing by the time we get our admin bit. Even if we weren't, the same wand that gives us the bit grants us that power as well. On a more serious note, I don't claim to know the best way to carve the bits up, but the time to do discuss it has never been better. Maybe even throw in an occassional reconfirmation requirement for admin while we are at it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:45, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's a good summary Writ Keeper. Thinking back to my own RfAs, what really hurt wasn't all the accusations of "immaturity" or "incivility", but the implicit judgement that I couldn't be trusted, and that's what's really at the heart of this. The current system explicitly makes it clear that only admins can be trusted, not editors such as Kumioko or myself. Which is pretty insulting really. Malleus Fatuorum 14:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Malleus. I also find it irritating that we are supposed to do all the work so the admin can swoop in, implement the change and then claim credit (implicit or explicit). At some point I really need to decide whether I want to continue to invest my time in a project that appears to neither want nor need help but for now I don't have a life so I may as well stay. I'm married so I don't get out much. :-) Kumioko (talk) 15:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Two good/basic steps would be some form of unbundling combined with either a streamlined bit removal or reconfirmation process for anyone with parts of the tools. I have no faith in that happening, though, due to OWN of policy. The standard concerns about "not enough data" or "complexity" or some such will be trotted out and it will sink into the RfC tarpit never to be seen again. Until it's needed as an example of "how these things always fail" the next time someone with OWN needs to defend their vested corner of the bureaucracies. Intothatdarkness 15:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I am going to be careful what I say but remember this comment in a couple months, "Time will tell" :-) Kumioko (talk) 16:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The common counter argument seems to have become "a solution in search of a problem", as if that's in some way a bad thing. Writ Keeper's excellent analysis above makes it very clear what the real problem is, and why so many are so keen to block any solutions to Misplaced Pages's undoubted problems. Malleus Fatuorum 17:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

...I think all Admins should go through RfA once a year... a bit like re-election... Basket _Feudalist 17:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure if every year is needed, that might be a bit of a burden on the system and the admin. If you haven't done an RfA, it is hard to explain, but RfA week was hell beyond my wildest expectations, and I am pretty sure that is universally true. But at the three year mark, an RfA makes sense, needing 50% +/- to keep the bit. Being an admin means having to block people, and those people often hold a grudge and will pile in on reconfirmation. That is the argument against it and there is some validity to that concern because even the most perfect admin in the world is going to piss off people from time to time, simply by doing his job properly. I still think some kind of re-acceptance by the community every few years is a good idea. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't have described mine as "hell", but then mine was very smooth for an RfA (God knows why), and it was still much more stressful than I expected it to be. I'm not a fan of reconfirmations more out of sheer laziness and sloth than anything else; I'd prefer to just have a much easier desysop procedure (what, the community can be trusted to grant the tools but not take them away?). A reconfirmation wouldn't be that big a deal, though. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I tried to create an easier desysop system (with help from an ex-Arb) that was community driven WP:RAS, which was driven in the dirt, even after a number of modifications. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:00, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
      • *sigh* I know, just as RfA reform has been, just as editprotected unbundling has been, just as autopatrolled unbundling will undoubtedly be once someone gets around to closing it. All sunk into the morass of "no consensus", I'd expect. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Again, the very people who are often outspoken on the current system are often the same that are outspoken against making any changes. I can only assume it is driven by a love of being outspoken. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

          Err, there are exceptions. I've been very critical of the current system, and I'm in favour of almost any change, if only to shake things up a bit and getting people thinking rather than theorising about what might happen. Malleus Fatuorum 18:17, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

And admins shouldn't be allowed to !vote in those "re-elections" (too much conflict of interest). ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Mmm, I'm not sure that's a good idea; with deletions and things, admins might be the only ones who can see a problem. We're really not as homogeneous a group as we seem; I don't think that tit-for-tat voting or voting blocs are concerns unique enough to admins to warrant blocking them from the proceedings altogether. YMMV, though; I know that there are some admins (who shall go unnamed) who I would oppose, were they to be put up for renomination. All hail the cabal! *snerk snerk* Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I would also note that disagreements between admin are quite frequent, but are typically conducted via email, often in the name of professionalism. If people only knew how often admin actually bicker among ourselves or simply disagree.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at your old proposal, Dennis, it was actually "sunk" by a very small handful of people. I did comment on it, but my concerns were fairly small and (I think) reasonable. OWNing policy types will always block change...they can't do anything else. Sadly, they tend to be over-represented in those discussions. Unlike DT, I don't have an issue with Admins voting in reelections or whatever...the point is to make it as open and fair as possible. If only admins review admins (ArbCom springs to mind here, honestly) the process will always be seen (fairly or not) as a self-licking ice cream cone. Intothatdarkness 18:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I do not propose that admins should be " from the proceedings altogether"; indeed, they should certainly be allowed in the general discussion, but most definitely not to !vote. I do not doubt that there are important disagreements among admins, but in one thing they all must agree, and that is that they want to keep their power. If admins were allowed to !vote, then the "re-election" would become a joke process, a self-interest façade even. Not something I would want to see. ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Non-admin outnumber admin by 100x or more. There are only 200 or so relatively active admin on the entire project, out of around 1600 with the bit. Non-admin numbers are insanely higher. Outnumbering admin in a !voting discussion is a trivial task. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Then you would not object to my proposal that admins shouldn't be allowed to !vote in "re-elections", given that their !votes would not (or so you contend) matter much. Right? ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, an admin might be privy to reasons not to reelect that others may not (see DB's note about e-mail above). I see no reason to prevent them from !voting, but it might be possible to require a certain percentage of non-admin support for an admin to be reappointed (or removed...whatever). And I refuse to use the term community here...community is all too often whatever five voices shout the loudest. Intothatdarkness 18:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems to go against the ideas of the Five pillars, although the way you are presenting it makes it sound as more of a personal challenge than a sincere proposal. Saying that one group of users can't participate due to the fact they have volunteered to serve the community doesn't sound like it serves the interests of the community. It does sound like you want to put up an even larger wall between admin and non-admin, a wall I've been trying to chip away at for a couple of years. Of course, you are welcome to create an RFC on the issue at the village pump, although I think you would find that if you discounted all the admin votes, the community would overwhelming reject the idea. 18:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Admins would overwhelming reject the idea, and it would be in their self-interest to do so. ~ DanielTom (talk) 20:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

So what? Non-admins outnumber admins 100 to 1, if every admin voted against, you could still get it put in place because of the sheer volume of non-admin voters. That is my point. Rally the troops if that is really your goal, admin couldn't outvote you if they tried. As I said, my goals are to reduce the walls between admin and non, not build them. Adding more administrative layered positions, making it easier for an admin to lose the bit and get the bit so it is less of a big deal, reducing the "power" that existing admin have. Hell, I've worked on all of those this week. I don't talk about it every day because I'm too busy doing something about it in the venues where these decisions are made. Just talking about it solves nothing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

While I take your point Dennis, you and I both know it doesn't work like that. An admin would have to close the discussion and decide on consensus bearing in mind the weight of argument on either side. And given that very few non-admins would even be aware of the discussion and that "canvassing" is expressly forbidden, the status quo would inevitably prevail, so no point in anyone bothering. Malleus Fatuorum 20:56, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Not trying to but my nose in here too much I'll tell you what bothers me more than anything about my RFA. The hypocrisy in the comments. A lot of the folks are about as incivil as they can possibly be saying I am incivil yet only a couple mentions and one by me that people should remain civil. They wonder why I am rude to some editors and then they make comments like that? I have to ask myself what they are thinking asking why I am not nice to them. Yes I used to be a lot nicer and passive and look what happened to me. I was blocked and disgraced by an admin (without ever having actually done anything wrong) who didn't bother to look into the situation and then did not even block the editor who violated 3RR. Then I get more active in trying to unscrew the system and I am constantly insulted and degraded and harassed so I get even more aggressive in trying to change things and now I am a troll and a vandal and a pest because I am taking an active role in trying to change the culture and I am not an admin? How dare I! So I submitted a 3rd RFA to "give some visibility" to the types of comments I am subjected too and which I have begun to respond to in more aggressive ways. It is being seen and I can only hope some action will be taken to address the issues of civility, the RFA process and the way the tools are deployed. Anyway, pass or fail I am not going away. I am going to contiinue to contribute and continue to try and change the culture. If I make some editors made or hurt some feelings and torpedo my chances of getting RFA in the process so be it. Anyway, just wanted to give those here a quick reponse to my feelings on the status of my RFA. Some good will come of my RFA failure, eventually. It may not come in the form of me getting access to the tools, but it will come for the longterm benefit of the project. Kumioko (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think the better proposal is something along the lines of what Dennis has already suggested - a system that makes it easier to report genuine concerns over administrative conduct. I think the idea of "revalidation" RfAs is open to abuse by editors with a grudge. I also believe that all this would be made easier if the toolpack were completely unbundled, but that has its own problems too. I think if we break up the toolset we run the risk of preventing able administrators from expanding into areas in which they did not originally intend to work. Basalisk ⁄_berate 19:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I also agree. Something like AUSC for administrative oversight. Kumioko (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need another bureaucracy for keeping admin behavior in check; we already have ArbCom. What I feel we do need, though, is a way to desysop an admin other than ArbCom. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

@King of Hearts, Yes we have Arbcom but regardless of the intent of that process or how it started it has devolved into being a symbol of the corruption and bad problems we have in the project. Their decisions are sketchy, their methodology for conducting cases and developing remedies for problems is inherently flawed and inconsistent and besides all that they don't police the admins anyway. They might desyop one if someone prevented a case but not only is it extremely rare for an admin to be desysopped they have stated themselves that they don't want to send a message to admins that admins stop blocking and doing admin things. IMO though this is a BS argument. Kumioko (talk) 10:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

@Basalisk - But nothing prevents admins from asking for additional parts of an unbundled toolkit, and you could still keep an full version around for those who go through normal confirmation processes. And making it easier to report, frankly, doesn't mean a damn if no action is taken on those reports. If you're simply making it easier to report admins to other admins...does that really do anything if it's still difficult to remove the bit? Removing is the key part, and until that's easier the rest is just window dressing.Intothatdarkness 19:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

What we need is for everyone to accept that having admin given or taken away is no more of a big deal deal than it is for for a regular editor to have rollback given or taken away. That'll never happen of course, but if you look at what Dennis does from day to day for instance you'll see that rather little of it requires him to have administrator powers, just a willingness to listen and try to help. Malleus Fatuorum 19:18, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's entirely true. Many of the tools included in the admin set are no more a big deal than rollback, but there are others, such as the delete and block buttons, which are far more sensitive. Regarding many of the tools, I agree that it should be easier to acquire them. I can see the benefit in enabling trusted editors to edit protected pages and templates, and I supported your recent drive to decouple the autoconfirmed right from administrators. That said, I'm not entirely comfortable with making the delete and block buttons easier to obtain. In conclusion, I think Newyorkbrad put it best when he recently said he felt adminship was a "medium-sized deal". It's not supposed to be the be-all and end-all, but it's not supposed to be insignificant either. Basalisk ⁄_berate 19:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The delete button issue is a fiction, as administrators are not required to identify to the foundation. And any lawyer who says differently ought to be struck off from whichever bar they're registered with for incompetence. As for Newyorkbrad, he's been around for so long he's forgotten what it feels like to be disempowered and disenfranchised. In his day all you had to do was to ask to become an admin and poof, you were an admin. Malleus Fatuorum 19:41, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I don't have anything to say about the actual legality of the whole viewdelete thing, but at some level, we are obligated to play the cards that the WMF has dealt us, however shitty or misguided--if they say viewdeleted is a big deal to grant, then we are forced to treat it accordingly. That doesn't mean that it needs to be a big deal to remove, though; I'm not really a believer in the social-osmosis theory where an office easier to get kicked out of than voted into will inevitably be left empty. I have scoured my conscience, and I can honestly say that being an admin is not that big a deal to me; I would not fight tooth and nail to preserve it. (Feel free to pooh-pooh as necessary.) It's handy, but if people don't want me to be an admin, then I won't be; most of the tasks I do can be performed without the tools with only a slight loss in efficiency. Really, the thing it would be most annoying to lose would be the ability to jump in and fix syntax errors in people's .js and .css pages; it's unspeakably frustrating when you provide the code for them to copy and paste, and they include the <syntaxhighlight> tags, too. Being able to just go ahead and fix it makes things much simpler. (Also, "your bid"...*sigh*) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:54, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear. My sincere apologies for that unintentional slight. Basalisk ⁄_berate 20:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no worries, I didn't take it personally. It's just funny in the light of multiple people accusing me of being Malleus's puppet in proposing it. Apparently Malleus has the anti-Midas touch to them; anything he has touched becomes permanently tainted by contact with him, to be shunned forever because "it was Malleus's idea so it can't be good". Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe I said to you that it would be a waste of time proposing any unbundling, but even I didn't expect the "Oh, it's Malleus's idea, I must oppose" reaction from some. We live and learn. Well, some of us do anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 20:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Anyone who says that can be dismissed as an fool or a troll. Many of us think realigning the tools is overdue. Dismissing it because Malleus agrees is silly. Malleus, you should use that to your advantage, use a little reverse psychology and manipulate discussions. You could rule the place ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 10:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

"The Malleus that Rocks the Wiki Rules the World....!!!! Basket _Feudalist 10:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Chalkidiki Greek ANI

I just read your comment on Future Perfect's Talk Page concerning this ANI. Had you written that strictly policy statement as your justification for deprodding "Chalkidiki Greek" and taking it to AfD, you would have heard not a peep from me. But when you invented a non-existent content dispute in order to justify your actions, your reasoning became objectionable. You do not need to invent content disputes that don't exist or else you will find further problems with subject matter experts. --Taivo (talk) 15:37, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

• My vague nomination was meant to be seen as purely procedural but I thought the previous context made the reasons obvious. Perhaps it didn't, so I would apologize if I didn't make that clear enough. I wasn't trying to invent anything, it was just a boilerplate, procedural nomination and I expected the wording to be ignored so others could just pile on the delete votes. I had no real opinion one way or the other, not my field of expertise, so I chose to be as neutral as possible. Since I was nominating, thus voting a "delete", it shouldn't matter as long as it is in good faith, and it was. As for why I chose AFD, I was reverting another admin, DGG, without notification, so I felt I had to comply with his directions to the other editor, else it could look like wheel warring. I did agree with DGG that AFD was the better venue, but I wouldn't have been as likely to get involved and just send to AFD had it not been protected. This was simply the shortest distance between two points. Had it not been taken to ANI by someone else, I would not have commented at the AFD at all, and simply let the process play out, as I had no desire to see anyone blocked. This is why it is better to take concerns to an editor's talk page and simply ask them rather than opine in the AFD itself, as it doesn't affect the merits of the deletion, and is less likely to cause more misunderstandings. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 15:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

"User can not be renamed due to too many edits"

Where has "User can not be renamed due to too many edits" come from? Plenty of editors with far higher edit counts (Kumioko, Rlevse, Betacommand for instance) have been renamed, and the wiki hasn't exploded as a result. – iridescent 2 19:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

They had the same problem. Their accounts had to be moved to the new names rather than just renamed. Same result, different process. It does cause a little more problem with SUL accounts but the fix is the same, it just has to be done separately on different sites. Kumioko (talk) 20:02, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I think 50,000 edits is the cut off and Eric far exceeds that. The software will not allow the Crats to move their accounts, even if they wanted to. The user name already existed and had to be usurped as well. Fortunately, the editor only made one edit, vandalizing, so usurping wasn't a huge issue. WilliamH was a champ and did all this on very short notice, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:05, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

".. forever and ever, amen!" Martinevans123 (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi Dennis! Now that you have unblocked Kiefer.Wolfowitz, would you be so kind as to remove the personal attacks against me (and User:GiantSnowman and others) on his talkpage? Alternatively, would you ask him to remove them himself, or would you like me to remove them? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• You probably need to not remove anything on his page, that would likely cause more problems. I will make a request that he clean up his page a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:45, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for making that request of him. For what it's worth, I personally have no problem waiting until tomorrow for him to do something about it, as he asks for some reason. (I can't speak for any of the others who were attacked.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• I understand and appreciate your patience. Kiefer has a way of cooling down after being unblocked and I think that unblocking him now was the right thing to do at the right time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

  I look forward to Demiurge1000's removing his "boxcutter" remarks and his comments about Lihhas, setting an example for the rest of us sinners. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

There's a misunderstanding there, I think. It was not I who made the comment about wanting to "fly to London with a boxcutter and slit some throats", but rather a staff member of a certain web forum. (It is worth noting that Marek has at one point wisely disassociated himself from said web forum after the behaviour of its staff and members moved from merely possibly-humorous threats of violence into the area of blatant stalking and outing.)

Likewise, it was not I who added a userbox stating "This user is a National Socialist" to Lihaas' userpage; it was Lihaas who did so. (It is true that he eventually removed it, after its appropriateness was questioned by me and others.) Lihaas is responsible for his actions; you are responsible for your actions. It is entirely justifiable for me, GiantSnowman, Fram, or anyone else to correct you when you pretend otherwise. It would be best for you not to make such assertions about other editors; it would also be wise for you to take a little break from editing when you are unable to contribute in a collegial fashion. Unfortunately, when you are unable to recognise the need for such a break of your own volition, a break ends up having to be imposed instead. That's what happened here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

You were blocked for repeatedly smearing Volunteer Marek and others with variations on "box cutter" (officially "... repeated personal attacks and false or unsubstantiated accusations"). You have not removed your "box cutter" smears, as this link to search results for "Demiurge box cutter" shows. Given these facts, there's no point discussing anything with you. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

He was also the one who spread the rumour that I have a secret admin account. Eric (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

"By an unconscious self-parody I mean a poem or a passage in which the author is both characteristic and unintentionally absurd. I regret it has not been possible to include any Carlyle because, when I came to look through that fulgurating prose again after a happy lapse of thirty years since I had to read it in Freshman English at Yale, I discovered it was all self-parody."

— Dwight MacDonald, Parodies, p. 474

That was self-parody, perhaps inspired by Dwight MacDonald's book, Parodies, which contains two chapters on self-parodies, conscious and unconscious. MacDonald's essays on William F. Buckley are also entertaining. (Buckley was called a "Nazi" only once.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• We all could probably just let our conscience be our guide, and maybe avoid each other whenever possible.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:37, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I do hope not, Dennis; I often find your input to be quite useful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I was really talking more of you and KW :-) Sometimes good people just don't get along, and it is easier to get along if they cross paths less frequently. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, Volunteer Marek is one of the most decent people on Misplaced Pages, Demiurge1000 is one of the most indecent users on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages would have been the greatest site on the whole NET, if most Wikipedians were like Volunteer Marek. On the other hand Misplaced Pages would have been the worst site, if most Wikipedians were like Demiurge1000. 71.198.248.45 (talk) 22:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User:LarryTr7

Sorry to bother you about this user *again*, but is yet another BLP violation, I believe. Can you please block them before they waste any more time? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• This would be handled better at ANI with a polite, neutral, short report stating the facts, and request for a final warning be issued first, following by the application of WP:BLPBAN if they won't stop. They must have received adequate warning before this very strong remedy can be applied. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 10:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm with you on most of this, but surely they've had more than enough warnings, several of which were final warnings? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• This would be the shortest distance to a permanent solution. Of course, if an admin wanted to block them there, they could as well, but the ban is actually the stronger action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Once more I'm confused. How is a BLPBAN, on a user whom clearly doesn't give a damn about any guidelines, and will never edit constructively anywhere else (at least, not under this alias), stronger than an indef block under NOTHERE? A BLPBAN will still mean people have to waste time on making sure this user doesn't appear anywhere near the Ping Fu article (or anywhere else), an indef will prevent any time from being wasted. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• Coffee is brewing (it is early where I live...) and I've looked again and just issued them a final warning on their user talk page, as is required under BLPBAN. No ANI needed. If they continue, you can get any admin to ban/block them under BLPBAN. I would just say trust me that this makes the paperwork easier, particularly if they come back and sock, which they have already done in the past. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• I will trust you, and sorry if I've appeared a bit abrasive (sadly, that's how I am) - thanks for taking some kind of action :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• No offense taken. In cases like this, dotting the i's and crossing the t's makes life easier for future issues, which are likely. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Honest Q

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I thought "behavioral issues", especially long term ones, were grist for the mill of WP:RfC/U (and, not blocks). (You say "no choice" regarding INDEF block, but, I'm genuinely confused, isn't that circumventing or skipping an RfC/U that, perhaps, should have occurred long ago, and has never occurred? ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC) p.s. To summarize: why not send the matter to RfC/U, instead of deciding "no choice" but INDEF block, when the issue is long-term behavior, and there's never been an RfC/U? (I thought blocks, were to prevent immediate disruption. But that blocks or other sanctions, could result from a completed/consensus RfC/U, as input to an ANI motion, based on long-term behavior issues. I notice, e.g. Mallues has never had an RfC/U. And many editors have argued, that such an RfC/U must precede any call for his head, of which there have been many such calls, as you know.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry in advance for the length. This is my understanding, and like all policy issues, interpretations by others may vary a little or a lot: It depends on the disruption causes. RFC/U is the preferred venue when the disruption is mild to moderate but ongoing and there is a chance that discussion will stop the disruption. Sometimes, the disruption is such that blocking (for any period) is the only solution to prevent disruption. I am on record as not being a fan of our current RFC/U system because there is no way to issue any kind of sanction such as a topic ban, or even to require a mentor. The person who is the subject of the RFC/U isn't even required to participate at all, they are free to ignore it and continue on their merry way. It lacks teeth, as it against policy to issue a sanction within the boundaries of the RFC/U. You have no choice but to start another process, such as WP:ANI. I don't think we should have infinite options for sanctions there, but having no options makes it a neutered process. It does have some uses and sometimes has good results, but more often than not, it is used only because Arbcom often requires it before bringing an issue before them.

In cases like this in particular, I support an indef block as a means to both stop the disruption (which was widespread) and to force a dialog. For example, a one week block can be waited out and the reasons for it ignored. Often, an indef block can be lifted in a day or two as soon as the person pledges to stop the behavior that caused the block to begin with. The duration is up to the blocked person. Most of the time, I think we can guess what period of block will prevent disruption without being punative. I understand there are always differing opinions on where that line is, so we have to use our best judgement based on previous consensus, while being open to it being lifted sooner if appropriate. There isn't a right or wrong answer, just best judgement. More rarely, an indef is the best option with the hope that it can be lifted quickly. From my perspective, the indef should be used when there is no reasonable hope of conforming to expectations (vandals, multiple socking, etc), when other timed blocks have been tried but failed, or more rarely when the actions are very disruptive and their reasoning for the actions defy logic so a time can't be calculated. Those kinds of blocks can be lifted quickly once the underlying issues are addressed.

In short, sometimes you have to stop the disruption now and discuss later. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 13:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your sincere answer, there wasn't any need to apologize for length, I would never ever WP:TLDR anybody, I consider that really stupid, and underhanded. I read several of the diffs claiming blatant PAs by User:Fladrif, and excuse me, but there seemed to be no PAs there, at most minor incivilities. (Therefore, wouldn't that qualify for your "mild to moderate but ongoing disruption" that qualities for RfC/U?) That said, I agree with you about the dicklessness of RfC/U (and in addition to that, the inhospitable mob-rule incivilities I have seen in some RfC/Us that I have read). (When User:Quale filed an ANI against troll User:OGBraniff, later blocked INDEF as troll and sock, User:Drimes declined the ANI and pushed RfC/U at User:Quale and me, when I questioned Drmies about the wisdom of the decision at the ANI in that case. I have no respect for RfC/U as a result of what I have read in some samples, so cannot criticize your lack of valuing them to do any good, and subsequent disinclination to refer a case to that venue.) Thanks again for your candid explanation, your "like all policy issues, interpretations by others may vary a little or a lot" seems very intelligent comment to me. (Notice please, that you and Admin Drmies, obviously differ on the worthwhileness of RfC/U, if I take his constant recommendations to address the troll through that venue, and giving no other options, as good-faith sincere, and not just a recommendation tailored because I was involved -- a user he doesn't like, and tailored to shed me & my conserns, as an expediency and according to his disfavoritism.) Thanks again. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Going from memory, so forgive me if I'm off a bit (that is a lot to read again), I want to say my concern wasn't the personal attacks as much as the willingness to continue a pattern of behavior that was pointy and disruptive, plus (WP:IDHT). I'm not one to regularly support blocks just for incivility. One thing I also wanted to add re: your previous comment is that blocks are to prevent disruption as a whole, not just immediate disruption. Per the policy itself "Blocks serve to protect the project from harm, and reduce likely future problems". The section WP:BLOCK#DETERRENT also covers how blocks are used to encourage the editor to conform to community expectations in the future, and why they are typically escalating. This is the tricky part, and where a lot of confusion (and drama) centers, and where people often have very different interpretations. Part of the reason for blocking is to offer an incentive in the future, not just to stop what is happening today. They are a deterrent. To be honest, I though drawing the line between punitive and deterrent would be a lot easier before I got the admin bit and had to start actually making the call. It is very possible to get it wrong even when you are uninvolved and trying hard to get it right. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I can appreciate that. (Please note though, the difficulty of the judgement call to which you refer, in the hands of an Admin not necessarily trying to "do the right thing" but exercise a grudge, there's plenty of loose rope for him to justify a block, really a grudge-block, and so lots of contention around Admin honesty in execution of their tools. ) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

As addendum, one of the reasons I asked your explanation for your INDEF recommendation, is because I distrust the ANI venue entirely (the mob-rule and pile-on culture there) re responsible comments, for example, this one made me laugh out loud -- is this editor kidding?! ("Bright line" on a poorly defined and inconsistently interpreted CIV policy? Who is this editor joking, as though everything were that clear? What a total irresponsible and ridiculous venue, this ANI. People can say anything, and they do. And it is often mob mentality, abusive, absurd BS.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 15:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC) p.s. And "enough is enough", the argument of User:Ched to which the user responded, really means what? (E.g., why isn't "enough enough" with Bwilkins's insults toward User:DanielTom? It seems "enough is enough" only when an Admin decides they "want" to do something, and that can be based, on personal prejudice, agenda, historic grudge, what have you. This kind of stuff is bad for WP reputation. Everyone knows I think ANI reputation stinks and I will never go there, ever, for any reason, for good reason, and that I am not alone in this view.]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 15:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC) p.p.s. More meaningless tautology: "What was, was. What is, is. What's gonna be ... is gonna be." —Archie Bunker

The flexibility does create a loophole to which abuse can creep, but it is the lesser of the available evils: either this way, or a system that is so inflexible that an admin would be afraid to do anything. Most of the big abuses are obvious and caught. Some of the smaller ones are in the eye of the beholder and may or may not be abuse, depending on your perspective and experience. Sometimes, admin simply have to do ugly things that are contentious, it isn't something any of us enjoys, I can assure you. We all prefer to just do our duties and edit our articles without drama. If admin seem to cut other admin a little slack in borderline cases, it may simply be because we understand what it is like to have to make the borderline call, and are just showing respect for that. Often, I will flatly disagree with an admin's decision but respect their call. For example: Bbb closed a discussion the other day where I completely disagreed with his interpretation, and I (and others) was calling for the entire process to be aborted, he chose to close with action instead. I respect that he used his best judgement, that I'm not always right, and that it wasn't personal against anyone. I support his close when it became contentious because I respect him and believe he did so within policy. I was one of the nom's at his RfA, but that didn't obligate him. This is more common than you might think. Fortunately, most admin don't take this personal, so we can work together with the understanding that we aren't obligated to agree with each other. It is important that admin are able to disagree without getting in battles. We are supposed to set an example, after all, even if we all fall short of that from time to time. As for bright lines and civility, I agree, which is why I'm so lax at taking action for civility issues. As for ANI, I have been dragged to ANI for my "abusive conduct" so many times, I've literally lost count. I know all too well what that is about. And for "enough is enough", I have used "enough" as part of a rationale myself, where the user has demonstrated that they are going to continue disrupting, and now using the process to cause even more disruption. For me, it means I have lost faith that the editor can edit without causing disruption and must be blocked. Right or wrong, it isn't so uncommon. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a believer in the system, Dennis. (You are. You support the organization status quo structure. I don't agree with you there are two choices, and flexibility of Admins to block is the lesser evil. I have experienced and witnessed too much corruption here, to possibly be a believer, like when I first signed up and read the vanilla documentation, erroneously thinking this was a pretty cool place. It is filled with abuse, hostility, hypocrisy. And "flexibility" is just a cover for those Admins who hold grudges. The WP needs strutural change. The top content editors should be put in charge. Then you would see something different. No status quo. I do not agree with your belief that "most major abuses are stopped". (Most abuses occur at a level to never reach a radar worth paying attention to. Case in point: User:FleetCommand. Or even my own block. Unless an editor is "a Malleus" , no one notices, no one cares.) I don't even agree that you have been taken to ANI as many times as you like to claim over "abuses". (How many times, in what frame of time? Just give me some numbers.) You also have exaggerated other things, to be fair, Dennis, such as claiming that you have been called "every name in the book except the Son of God". (Funny, I don't see anyone calling you any names, Dennis. In fact I have never seen it. So I think it is a rare occurrence, and you've exaggerated. ) I have still a real hard time with the "that's enough" criteria for Admin taking action. It is an arbitrary, invisible line in the sand, that is documented nowhere, and has no objective criteria. Only an Admin deciding they are frustrated enough to sanction someone. Pure subjectivity, and because a function of frustration usually, usually also based on emotion. Last, I have a real hard time with the "Admins-friends-network, whereby, Ched can make a "bold (and unusuall)" sudden decision to INDEF an editor based on "enough is enough" level of PAs, but Bwilkins's statements against User:DanielTom are summarily excused and ignored. Not even an admonishment let alone any kind of warning. (DanielTom asked you to be fair and evaluate the situation re PAs. Your answer: "Here, let me give you something else instead" (basically). I asked Ched the same evaluative Q, were they PAs in his estimation, and also to compare his consistency with recently blocking a user INDEF over PAs. When I got the same type of "Bwilkin's is really a nice guy" answer, same as yours, and found that non-responsive and unsatisfactory, he turned ad hominem, and accused me of asking him to denigrate Bwlinkis privately, when I never did any such thing, when I had simply asked for his objective, professional opinion (PAs or no?). IMO you guys can't even be honest with regular users, less you offend one of your Admin friends, and really no matter what, with nearly no exception. The fact Ched called Fradrif's PAs "unacceptable" and blockable, but will dance around in order to make no statement about PA re Bwilkins's comments re DanialTom, and you too Dennis ... really, just how the heck am I supposed to end up with any kind of respect for this "flexible Admin environment" that is the best of all possible choices in your estimation? (I think it is just plain awful. I don't and won't accept it. It's BS. No objectivity or consistency, just who you're friends with, who you're not. Some would call that corruption, Dennis, when there's also blocking bats being weilded and used. And I don't accept the "No justice, only solutions" meme you've used on many occasions, I feel that is a dumbing-down, can be used to justify or excuse any kind of ill or abuse, and is totally inconsistent with a reasonable amount of fairness that anyone would expect reading the pillars and in a "collegiate editing community", and just based on common sense.) p.s. Sorry to soapbox here, but I thought we were done much earlier, and you "soapboxed" in favor of the current WP structure. So please accept this as "equal time" request. (Thank you.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Not trying to be critical, but there are a lot of factual errors here. First, you can search how many times I've been dragged to ANI or called out in the middle of an existing ANI, it isn't hard to do. As for being called name, all you had to do was check my archives, I leave most of them there, although some get reverted by others. I don't have a counter as to the times my pages have been vandalized or I've been called names, I expect it as part of the job, and I try not to take it personal. A minor point, but the expression is "He called me everything but a child of god" and it is an old American expression that is easily Googled. Even Obama has used it. Not being a Christian, I'm not known to make references to the "son" in any context. More on to the main point is the comment "You support the organization status quo structure" which is laughably absurd. You can find my comments all over the wiki where I'm trying to change the way the place is structured, to have different levels that make it much easier for content creators to get the tools for advanced editing without going through RfA. I just made the point on Malleus's Eric's page last night. I can only guess you haven't looked because it isn't hard to find. I don't remember soapboxing, although I do remember saying why things might not look like they seem. I'm not trying to be mean, but you do seem to jump to a lot of conclusions without looking closer. It isn't easy here, I've got over 40k contribs, so I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to filter through all of them, but you conclusions are simply wrong. I don't bitch and moan about the system on my talk page, I go to the actual policy pages and try to affect change, I propose new policies and try to get them enacted. I'm on record many times that admin should have to get reconfirmed regularly, for example. I actually do something besides complain. I still have to work within the structure that exists until then. Sorry, but the degree to which you are mistaken is simply breathtaking: all you had to do was look. All I can say is what I've told others: I do the best I can do with the hand I'm dealt. This started out well enough, but like so many conversation, it ends with the claims that I'm this terrible admin that is unfit. If this is so, you should request that I be desysoped at Arb, or start an RFC/U or whatever process you feel is best. I don't even require a formal action by Arb, and will gladly hand back my bit anytime a consensus of editors thinks Misplaced Pages is better without me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

clarification request

Could you clarify which part of the contribution you reference here is the BLP violation? NE Ent 16:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• The first sentence of his contribution seems to be calling the subject of the article a liar. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• The term used was false statement, which is, in fact, supported by the article itself Ping_Fu#Memoir. It's a difficult situation because we have both a responsibility to the subject and a responsibility to the reader and there are multiple reliable sources indicating the subject has made untrue statements. Is it a BLP to reference that fact? What I'm observing is an editor who has not followed multiple Misplaced Pages policies until informed of those policies e.g. as far as I know they haven't socked since the block for that expired and they haven't edited the article in a while but are participating on the the talk page. I'm not really getting what they were trying to communicate with all the diffs but I'm hesitant to engage the editor at this point lest I inadvertently "entrap" them into what could be perceived as a BLP violation. (By the way, can the sock tag on their user page go away at some point?) NE Ent 16:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• The tag was put there by an editor, not an SPI clerk. Clerks normally do not tag editors who are not indef blocked, and I frequently discourage non-Clerks from tagging editors at all. I've removed it. As for the BLP violation, I think it was a violation but I trust your judgement and experience with the user and will pull back to allow you to work with them. Like you, my goal is compliance with policy, not a block. If you can help them move forward and stay within policy, I would consider that the best possible outcome. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm surprised and impressed by the lengths you go to Ent, to try and get this user to behave like most people would. I fear it is a wasted effort, nevertheless. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:57, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Template Needed

Hi Dennis Brown, thank you for your prompt action, i.e., that you have protected the Székelys article. I would like to ask you to put a content dispute warning template to the beginning of the article. Such a template would be beneficial, since the reader should be warned about the ongoing disputes. Namely, several sourced information were removed and some dubious information were added to the variant which became protected. Thanks for your help in advance, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 23:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• That isn't the kind of template I've used before, as I try to not draw the reader's attention to the fact that there is a dispute. I don't have a problem if another admin decides to add some type of template, but I prefer to leave the dispute on the talk page and not in the header of the article. I did revert back to a version that the last admin protected at, which is certainly the wrong version, but I have no preference of my own. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)~

Hello Dennis Brown, I created new articles and suddenly Mr Koertefa and his team started an edit war. When I asked them kindly to cooperate and start writing, the proposed my articles to be deleted. I don't think this is fair. If he has an issue with me we can start a dispute resolution. Hortobagy (talk) 06:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

He started an WP:AFD process, which seems reasonable considering the availability of sourcing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Hoax - Szekely language

Dear Dennis, It is going to be a misunderstanding. That article is a hoax, please read my comment at AFD. Fakirbakir (talk) 11:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not saying it is or isn't, just that there is some doubt, as expressed by an established editor, so we should not use the tag. That doesn't mean it will or should pass WP:AFD, only that the reader shouldn't be assaulted with the tag if the read the article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The Quiet Man (film)

Hello Dennis, Could I please ask you to take a look and your opinion of recent unregistered IP edits on this page? The last thing I want to do is to be involved in a edit war, but this IP user keep inserting the same "Irish Free State" statement - which has nothing whatsoever to do with the plot or the film itself. Both myself and another edit have tried, but failed in stopping these unconnected edits, which have no exceeded the 3 reverts rule. Thank you in advance for your opinion/help. Regards, David. David J Johnson (talk) 14:16, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, thanks for your help. David. David J Johnson (talk) 14:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

It's time

Hi Dennis. I took your advice, have been contributing to other pages, even resolved an edit conflict on a talk page with out reverting any edits in the meantime. I think it's time to take off the topic ban and I hope you agree. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• I will probably either support or sit it out. It's been a bit busy, haven't looked at all the details. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Take your time, pal. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
    • But perferably do it today. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 16:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm probably going to just stay neutral in this and let others decide without an unsolicited comment from me. I've been involved enough that this is probably the most objective thing to do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Please Dennis. I really need your help here. You opposed it when you thought it should be opposed. Why won't you support it when you think it should be supported? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 13:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Heads up on potential WP:MMA battleground in near future

Hey Dennis! I know you absolutely love helping out with the exciting activities that revolve around the MMA WikiProject. *ducks whatever stray object that might fly his way* I know the other admins and folks who monitor WP:ANI enjoy it as well. *ducks more objects* I wanted to give you a heads up that someone posted at WT:MMA asking about the possible procedure for merging potentially non-notable UFC event articles into 2012 in UFC (discussion here). I do not know when/if merge discussions may be kicked off. If/When it does happen we know from past experience it could be a mess. (Hey, it's been four months since the last mess!) So, I just wanted to give you and your WP:JAGUARS a heads-up on this possible situation. Hopefully, things will go smoothly and there will be nothing to worry about. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Will try to keep an eye out. Time stamping this so it won't get archived too quickly. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

To-do list

Hey Dennis, you've just said something like "need to move on from this and get back to writing" in an edit summary. Right on there. And should you ever tire (argh, pun) of cars then BSA Gold Star might be a worthy subject. I have one but am more or less completely incapable of writing about what is one of the most iconic of Brit bikes. Stick it on the back-burner, maybe? Unless, of course, you are strictly a four-wheel man. I just cry every time I look at that article, which in itself suggests a COI of sorts! - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• I will peak over later and see if there is something I can to help a little, but I am a 4 wheel snob, I admit. The wife loves bikes, but they never did anything for me. I like big old cars and trucks that get 5 mpg :-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• No worries. I've got a few books on the subject and one day the various people I've loaned the things out to will return the things. Was that a pig I just saw fly past my window? Here's a photo for your wife to drool over. - Sitush (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  I was a Mod myself, so I'd like to see the Lambretta article improved. But I'd be prepared to help with the Gold Star article nevertheless. Eric Corbett 23:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I can imagine! Some would say that you still have that target painted on your back. I'll see if I can retrieve the books. - Sitush (talk) 23:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  We had some good rumbles with what were in those days called Rockers, but 'nuff said. Eric Corbett 00:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diplomacy

Dennis, for a guy, you're a pretty awesome one, and you're doing a great job redeeming us admins since you're so completely not an asshole in any way. I could learn a lot from you and I would if I weren't such an asshole. We'll be camping in NC in a couple of weeks, and maybe we'll be grilling in your backyard. Set the beers cold, and there better be no American "lite" beers in that fridge. PS: my oldest daughter and I like mayonnaise on our hot dogs. Drmies (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Email me. Work has calmed down some so I've got some flexibility. I will be in Vegas in June for 4 days, I'm hoping that isn't at the same time. And thanks, as always. And yuck on mayonnaise on hot dogs. :p Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  Mustard. Hot dogs need mustard like a car needs gas/petrol. Eric Corbett 00:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  What I find disgusting is the North Carolina method of only putting coleslaw and what is colloquially called "chili" here, which is just seasoned hamburger. Every place here serves them like this. They serve hamburgers this way as well. As for my dogs, I prefer mustard as well: brown mustard if you have it, yellow if you don't. Relish or sauerkraut is optional. Grilled onion is also quite good as is real chili with beans. Plus a good beer. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Dennis, you're a nice guy and you handle a lot of shit. Thanks for doing that. Eric, to each his own. You ever had a bacon-wrapped, deep-fried hot dog? Make you wanna slap your baby brother. Drmies (talk) 03:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oh trust me - there's times I wanna slap my baby brother regardless of what's on the plate. — Ched :  ?  04:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

And another one.

		The Anti-Flame Barnstar
		For a remarkable display of restraint. PPP 05:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I guess this is Barnstar Night over at Dennis's place. I know you have a gajillion of these -- an old friend sent me this one after the recent nonsense, but as I told him, you deserve at least 75% of it, and thanks again. Mayonnaise on hot dogs?? Ecchh... Here in NY, ketchup on your dawg will get you booted from Yankee Stadium! DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 06:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you. You guys are way too flattering, but I appreciate each and every barnstar. It is a nice way to start the morning. :-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Swedish Gold "Sockadockan"

Chronical Editors leaving

Dennis. Ive created Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention/Soliloquies. I also want to save pertinent discussions and editor reader feedback ebout the retirement issue. At the talk page Ive retrieved a conversation from Mast Cell's talk. My question is "Am I required to notify any and all participants in the discussion that their input has been copied and pasted elsewhere." I know it would be good manners, but is it required? ```Buster Seven Talk 10:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC) On a personal note, I'm going White Bass fishing with my 92 yr old dad. 60 years of Spring trips to Fremont, Wisconsin. Can't wait! ```Buster Seven Talk 10:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• It is early, I haven't had coffee yet and got a ton on my plate already. We have to be very, very careful to not feed the WP:DIVAs with something like this. The core mission is about why, but using a lot of quotes may have some unintended blowback since they often contain claims of abuse or mistreatment that may or may not be accurate. We don't want it to a be a memorial wall for disrupters, and sometimes "mistreatment" is in the eye of the beholder. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Ive added a note saying i would basically edit "all the crap" out and just get to the core reason without any accusations or fanfare. ```Buster Seven Talk 11:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Dealing with problematic IP and through away multiple accounts

Thank you for giving an advice here, however could you please clarify a few more things along the line of my questions ?

1. It seems that reporting IPs of banned users on SPI does not make any sense. Is it then OK to simply revert their edits? There are two problems: (a) I do not have a proof this is indeed an IP of a banned user, only WP:DUCK applies, but this is a subjective test; and (b) someone might collect my reverts and present them as proof of my edit wars to WP:AE or WP:ANI;

2. One could argue that editors with floating IP numbers should not edit any controversial subjects and must open named account. If they start being involved in multiple reverts, this falls under WP:SOCK: Editing under multiple IP addresses may be treated the same as editing under multiple accounts where it is done deceptively or otherwise violates the above principles. Is it then OK to revert their edits I consider problematic?

3. When confronted, these people create multiple named throw away accounts (as in example above) and use them for editing controversial subjects. Can their POVish edits/reverts in pages on controversial subjects be reverted as edits by sockpuppet accounts?

Of course I am very much willing to give a benefit of the doubt to their edits (and some of them are certainly valid), however in cases of long-term sockpuppet and multiple accounts I simply can not (and should not) trust their sources because AGF does not apply. Thank you, My very best wishes (talk) 11:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• This is a slippery slope. If you violate 3RR in reverting a sock, but it turns out not to be a sock, you can end up blocked, and you just bit the user. I'm aware of the throwaway names and all, SPI is what I do, I see it every day. Filing the reports is helpful, but just leave off the IP addresses that haven't edited in three months, and keep it short. Longer explanations aren't necessarily more informative. You are overthinking it. Reverting should be based on the content, not your opinion if they are a sock, so worry about the content and let us worry about the socks. Except in the most obvious of cases, AGF means you have to exercise a little restraint with the revert button and treat them like any other editor until a connection is made. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Sure, I only reverted content-based. So, if I understand correctly, none of these accounts or IPs should be treated as a sockpuppet until this is decided on SPI? WP:DUCK does not apply. My very best wishes (talk) 11:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Or another admin blocks them. SPI isn't the only place sockpuppeting is dealt with, it is just the primary venue. Sometimes it is very, very obvious, but otherwise, you need to be careful of you mind find yourself edit warring with someone who is actually innocent. This is also why I recommend not notifying the person, often a report at SPI is mistaken, and we don't want to cause the stress of being accused of something when the reporting party was mistaken. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Another Nickaang sock?

Hi. After I started WP:Articles for deletion/Raj Luhar, created by User:Nickaang sock User:Tanweer Khan, first two IP socks voted against on the grounds of "per norms", then new account User:JayJaykar also voted against on the grounds of "per norms", as well as voting opposite to me with almost no rationale in 3 other AFDs I've been involved with. His other contribution is a spam article for Sundance DiGiovanni (diff) and links to that, in his characterisic style. All of this within 30 minutes of creating his account: his first edit was to create a user page almost identical to mine. I haven't got enough for an SPI yet, but thought you'd like to know all the same since you put a lot of work in on that SPI. Thanks, Captain Conundrum (talk) 15:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I think I'll just go ahead and create an SPI, and quit hassling you. Thanks. Captain Conundrum (talk) 15:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Not harassing, but I agree that SPI is the best venue for a repeat sock. It creates a bunch of useful links for investigating there as well. Of course, any time you create an SPI and you know I've worked the case before, pinging me here is perfectly fine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 15:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I did some cleanup. Dennis, I'm at work. I'm having a shitload of fun. Drmies (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

You can opine in the bottom section with the CU's, Clerks and Admin. I blocked the two IPs as well, then closed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick work, both of you. Captain Conundrum (talk) 16:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Qworty

I understand why you blanked Qworty's user and talk pages, but I think it would be fairest to Young to restore his own last comments on both of those pages. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• But not fair to us. No dangling shticks. Drmies (talk) 16:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• As is often the case, there was no perfect solution available. Sometimes, the best we can hope for is a solution that everyone disagrees with just a little, and in equal measure. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Why isn't the ban notice still there though? That doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't that remain on pages of banned users, for the record? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Tagging isn't strictly required by policy, and this specific type of courtesy blanking is obvious enough that it serves the same purpose. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Presumably, you will also now be courtesy blanking all of our other blocked BLP's, beginning with User:JackSarfatti? I'm not at all clear why Qworty was given special treatment over all of our other blocked BLP's. What's going on here? Viriditas (talk) 23:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to bring any case up at WP:AN or have an RfC on changing policy to do so. This was based on consensus after discussing at an administration board. Not every case is the same, or we could have hard and fast rules for everything, and get rid of the fifth pillar. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm bringing it up with you since you were the one who implemented it. Why was Qworty's user and talk page "courtesy blanked" when this is not the standard way of dealing with our blocked BLPs. Do you intend to also implement this solution on pages like User:JackSarfatti? I'm getting the distinct impression that Qworty has been "helped" and assisted by administrators at every step along the way, from the primary contributions to his biography (by an admin) to his 13,000 edit, reign of terror that somehow left him untouched by a positive SPI. Can you think of any other positive SPI's where the offender was not blocked? I can't. Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

There has only been minor vandalism of his user page and not some bizarre dispute over how badly to shame Mr. Sarfatti for high wikicrimes against our sacred mission. It also isn't linked from his BLP. Not that I wouldn't prefer to see much of this tagging business minimized or eliminated, but the special treatment is a response to special malice.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

On that note, please explain how Qworty's bio meets WP:AUTHOR. The only reason we have this non-notable bio is because admins have been defending it for years. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, my actions were based on the consensus at the discussion and supported afterwards by the participating parties on both sides of the issue. As far as SPI is concerned, I wasn't a clerk or even an admin when his first case came up. I was the clerk that worked his case yesterday, and no socks were found, even after two CUs did a sleeper check. I genuinely don't have an opinion about the guy and I had never heard of him before yesterday, which is what made it possible for me to both clerk the SPI and find a solution that was supported by the participants at the discussion. I'm not sure what else to tell you, as I'm not clear on the complaint. If you think I've exceeded my authority or acted improperly in some way, you can ask for it to be reviewed at WP:AN. I won't take it personal, it is part of the job and I expect it from time to time. If you want to change the policy, then WT:BAN would be the right place to start an RfC. If you just want to vent, well, that's fine but there isn't much I can do to help with that other than sit here and listen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

That's the second meta-explanation you've given me. Thanks, but I asked a very specific question: what is this consensus that you implemented and what is it based upon? Viriditas (talk) 23:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I assumed you had already looked at the most obvious place, ANI . Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

And a meta-pointer. Thanks, but I'm asking for an explanation from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I mean, you wouldn't want me to think you were just following orders... :) Viriditas (talk) 23:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Viriditas, WP:AUTHOR states: "Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included" and Young clearly meets the general notability criteria. He cannot be said to be a low profile individual notable for only one event or any of the usual reasons for deletion. Arguably you could say the controversy over his novel meets criteria 4c of WP:AUTHOR.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Young does not meet any criteria for notability, and the only reason we have an article on this person is because he has been helped by admins. Viriditas (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Viriditas, you are talking in circles. I've explained my rationale for taking action in pretty good detail there, so what exactly are you asking? Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You didn't explain your rationale to me here when I asked, a rationale that should be easy for you to summarize in 50 words or less. Anyway, since I'm obviously not going to get an answer from you, I won't bother to keep asking. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I explained it here. Maybe I'm dense, maybe you are trying to be clever and I just don't get what you are driving at, but that diff explains it about as good I know how to. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

My working theory is that Young is being given extra special treatment because he was in the U.S. Navy, and many of our admins and highly active editors are veterans. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your polite bluntness, something I actually appreciate. As for the theory, I'm ex-Air Force, but honestly, I had never heard of the guy until yesterday, have no opinion of the guy, and if you look at my comments and the SPI and the ANI, treated him exactly the same way I treat everyone. I have no idea what other admin have done in the past. Is it possible? Of course, admins are fallible humans like anyone else, but I have no knowledge of it. My solution was crafted to get both sides to simply agree by compromising, and end the drama, which it did. For the most part. As for "should we do this for every banned user?" I haven't thought of it, but I'm certainly not against it at first blush. Once the village council has banished someone from the village, it is common to strike their names from any statues and rolls, and a ban is just a short word for banish if we are to be honest with ourselves. I don't want people to haunt their talk pages and taunt them as well. Pretend you don't know the guy for a minute and have no opinion one way or the other. Really pretend. That was my perspective. Now, doesn't that solution make sense? It isn't the only solution but it was an elegant solution, if I do say so myself. Either you believe me or you don't, I don't have control over that, but it is the truth. If it benefits one side or the other in some way I didn't understand, it was unintentional. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd appreciate your collaboration

I've made what I think is an adequate start at User:Timtrent/Relationships with academic editors, but I am starting to get prescriptive. I hope you have the time to work with me, adding such other editors as you see fit to the group, to work this embryo essay up into a worthwhile item to move into the wild. After the experience trying to help a user form academe and seeing my efforts and those of others go to pieces I feel that we need to attempt to start to understand this class of editor and to make their lives here more companionable.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree I trust you to tell me unequivocally. Fiddle Faddle 19:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• One or two extracts from the Randy in Boise essay might be useful here -- as would Lore Sjöberg's Wired article, which is linked there. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 20:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• It is definitely interesting, and has some similarities to the end result, but not to the early stages. I agree. Parts of it are useful. I'm standing rather too close to the embryo essay right now to do anything useful to it I fear. Fiddle Faddle 20:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • Randy in Boise is sort of the issue you wish to address from the opposite paradigm. Sort of. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 20:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• The idea is interesting and I can see some merit, but I'm not qualified to empathize from the perspective of the academic, being that I'm far from being one. I think you need to attract some assistance from people who are the Professor types, who can better bridge the issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Where the heck am I going to find a professor? And, to be fair, the perspective of a long haul truck driver in the way we treat the profs is probably more important. Get behind that wheel! ;) Fiddle Faddle 21:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• This is Misplaced Pages, the place is thick with academics. You could ask around at WP:WER, as that seems to be the kind of project that the editors there are interested in, and be patient, it often takes a week for everyone who cares to read the news there to do so. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#Collaboration_request.2C_please which will, I hope, do the trick. I agree that there is no rush. Fiddle Faddle 21:41, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• To find the academics who are more interested in their subject area than in WER etc, you could try the talk pages of one or two "academic subject" Wikiprojects (just found a useful list here). PamD 18:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Oliver McGee and proxy servers

Oliver McGee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

When you have a moment, Dennis, I'd appreciate it if you would look at the history of this article and the action I just took semi-protecting the article. I'm WP:INVOLVED, but took the action anyway under the exception about any reasonable admin would have done the same thing. The article has a a terrible history of being edited by what are probably COI IP addresses. Recently, the IPs have acted up again, but this time, at least according to GeoLocate, they are using confirmed proxy servers. Therefore, I semi-protected the article and backed out the latest material. I did not block any of the IPs themselves, although they probably should be blocked. Can you look into this and take whatever actions you believe are appropriate, including undoing mine if you believe I was wrong to semi-protect the article. Thanks much. Added: I forgot to highlight the latest edit summary ("we must respectfully strongly disagree did huge amt of research to legitimately ref. all aspects of the article to Wiki norms of education career awards pls stop"). If ever an edit summary screamed conflict... --Bbb23 (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• It will take a bit to test them, and the chicken is coming off the grill. Just so you know, a confirmed proxy server isn't the same as an open proxy server. I can configure my server at work to essentially "relay" all my requests here, so it would look like I was actually at work if a CU took a look. That is a proxy server. If I opened it up so anyone else could without logging in and do so anonymously, that is what makes it open. Regular proxy servers are fine, and useful. Open proxy servers are prone to abuse since anyone from anywhere can use them without recourse if they abuse the end service, us. That is why we block them, for being open. But I will look later, I have scripts I've written that makes checking for open proxies a bit easier. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• The 198's are legitimate proxy servers for cell service. 164.67.81.43 is open on 8088 but I think it might be a caching server and I couldn't connect through it. I didn't go back any further than that. It would be very easy for all of those to be the same person based on geolocation. It wouldn't be their fault for having different 198 addresses, since cell service rotates through proxies all the time, but the 164* address is UCLA, likely a pretty run of the mill gateway server, so they are running a laptop/desktop/tablet behind it. I didn't compare to see if behavior is the same, you would know that. Protection is probably the best solution. And yes, that summary sounds like something alright. I didn't check the content of the article and limited myself to a cursory proxy check only. And the chicken was really good. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for all the work and the education. I'm glad the chicken was good.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Apparently, the IPs are McGee, and now he is screaming about the semi-protection. Just to be clear, I have no problem if you believe the article should be unprotected.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I left a message there, if he can calm down a bit, he might have better luck. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I read your message. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to make a dent as he just continued to scream and rant on my talk page. It's hard to believe that someone as educated as he is writes like that; it makes me wonder if he really is McGee, as he claims. In any event, I reverted his latest crap off of my talk page as no sensible discussion will come of it. As always, I appreciate your efforts. I'm off to bed now.--Bbb23 (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Mail

You have a piece. Go Phightins! 00:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes I do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 00:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Whenever you get a chance; no particular hurry. Go Phightins! 00:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Strange case

Hi Dennis. Can you take a look at this and give me your opinion? These 2 users, one of them under an autobio username, have been pushing this particular article for quite a while, and now seem to have escalted it a bit. I've cautioned the autobio username acct against creating autobios. I'm not sure how to address the claims about WMF member involvement, (User:Scottgramble has mentioned a WMF member by name), and mention of donorship? Scottgramble has reiterated the WMF member (Josh VanDavier) approval claim on my talk. INeverCry 01:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Text from email:

"Thanks for taking the time to reach out, and for your interest in supporting free knowledge. We're here primarily to provide infrastructure and support to the tens of thousands of volunteers around the world who edit and contribute everyday. Thanks for contacting us regarding your case, I took a quick look at your your article and everything looks pretty standard to me. " Scottgramble (talk) 01:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This doesn't mean he endorses your attempt to force the article out of AFC and into mainspace. Also, why did you make the comment "Approval from Wiki Media, as I'm a huge donor"? As for the subject himself, my notice to him about not working on his own bio article is a standard procedure here on Misplaced Pages. INeverCry 01:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• If someone from Wikimedia wants to approve an article, they should log on and do so properly, within the structure provided. Releasing email is inappropriate and may violate copyright law. If we assume the editor is being honest about the email, and this is the actual content, this looks more like a person just trying to be polite, and this would be entirely out of process. Because it isn't verifiable, it shouldn't be given any weight in the decision for the article. Trying to get something published under the reasoning that he has donated is a common claim, and is extraordinarily abhorrent and unethical. I did notice a personal attack on your page as well. If the article can stand on its own (I didn't look at the content, you certainly can judge that without me) then fine, but the behavior is unacceptable and worthy of a strong warning. The one or two valid points he makes on your talk page get lost in the vitriol. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

But Dennis, like I told INeverCry you guys can go ahead and just clear the article space of everything. I don't want anymore stress on myself, over this situation. I will just utilize Misplaced Pages for it's current resources, and will disregard thoughts of any future donations. What can I say? You guys are doing your jobs, as you think you should be doing them. "If you're gonna move this page again, just go ahead and delete the content at "http://en.wikipedia.org/Jaylen_Bledsoe". I don't want people to see this, when they attempt to create a page about him in the future or when someone looks him up on Misplaced Pages, because of me. Have a nice night... " INEVERCRY thanks for your "help", and keep doing your job. Scottgramble (talk) 01:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

We are volunteers. Most of us are willing to bend over backwards to help someone. Treating someone who dedicates a large part of their free time to build an encyclopedia so poorly is unprofessional, rude, and doesn't endear them to help you. You should read WP:NPA. As for our donations, please don't even mention them. It is uncouth and unethical to try to use a donation to get assistance or acceptance to those of us that are volunteers. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You mention personal attacks, on which page do you see this? Can you link to this? Not one person, was treated poorly in any of my rants. I mentioned that a large percentage of the editing community, are narcissistic. In response to the releasing of that email, all replies to emails dispatched from my company, states that we have full right to disclose information in details unless mentioned otherwise. Trying to work with you guys, is like the democratic party trying to work with the republican party in the senate; we get no where. Btw, since the beginning of this process the "BigPimpinBrah" editor was offering very little advice assistance even when I was a noob to the Misplaced Pages Author Community. Scottgramble (talk) 02:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

INeverCry's talk page: " You know you are all a bunch of narcissistic editors who want to be administrators". Nothing I would instantly block someone for (the first time), but it is insulting and unnecessarily confrontational. You assume you know other's motivations, and rather ironically, called a bunch of volunteers "narcissistic". Around here, we encourage people to speak about the merits of other people's ideas, and avoid commenting on them personally. It is ad hominem and is not conducive to a collegiate environment. Don't do that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

 Comment: This is interesting too. User:BigPimpinBrah brings the issue to my talk, and an IP comes along and reverts him twice? INeverCry 02:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

IP blocked one year as an open proxy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You can honestly go and block my account from editing now! I have absolutely no motivation, to come back to edit or write for Misplaced Pages. Thanks for your "help" User:Dennis Brown. I wonder how Sue Gardner, would feel and she saw how this brand is being represented by certain individuals. Scottgramble (talk) 02:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, never met her. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Scott, I have no dog in this fight, but two things strike me right off here: (1) how much money someone has donated should never influence whether or not an article they have created is kept; we have policies to determine that, and they don't include financial contributions. (2) I don't know who that WikiMedia person is supposed to be, but we don't approve articles by email. That is done on-wiki. LadyofShalott 02:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Those were the big two for me as well. I have to admit, there at the end after blocking the open proxy that was reverting the notification, what little good faith I had was exhausted, as that indicates something slightly different than what it was being represented as. The posts are out of order, but he mentions "block" right after INeverCry mentions the proxy server. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's another interesting edit. ;) INeverCry 03:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I've got to get some sleep, but I get the feeling I'm going to be clerking this soon enough. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 03:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The Comment about blocking my account was actually started before his comment was made about the proxy server, but unfortunately you can't have it open by 2 different that open and save the article as I get an "Overlap" error. Btw, at this point I could care less about what's going on here. Sorry about tonight, I've been extremely stressed with finals, and the situation with the article triggered an episode, I guess. Scottgramble (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have dropped a note at User talk:Jvandavier to alert him to this discussion. LadyofShalott 03:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking at his contribs, I wonder if you need to email him instead. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 03:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, perhaps so. LadyofShalott 03:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

 Done LadyofShalott 03:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

My thanks to you both for your help on this one. INeverCry 03:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Hey guys, Josh asked me to take a look at this for him. As part of that he showed me the email that he actually wrote and I can assure everyone that it was not what was written above. Far from expressing approval for the article to be moved into main space it was expressly about how to contact Email Response Team for more help. As was expressed in the email, and as others have said here, the community is the steward of the content (not the foundation) and any decision on approving an AfC or deleting a page is within the work of the community, not the Foundation. We should not be invoked as the reason for any content change except in the VERY rare circumstances of a legal necessity in which case we will make the change ourselves and make it clear what we're doing . Thanks LadyofShalott, INeverCry and Dennis for reaching out and for trying to figure this out. Jalexander--WMF 05:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. We expected as much. Now we just need to sort the socks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 10:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

•  Done Indef blocked Scottgramble for email fraud, socking and disruption, indef blocked Jaylenbledsoe for socking via WP:DUCK. Also removed talk page access. Any obvious socks should be blocked on sight. This should be filed under "COI paid spam". You could file an SPI and ask for a sleeper check, but he was using open proxies, which gave it away but makes it harder to connect dots. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 10:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Very good, I'm glad that's all sorted. LadyofShalott 14:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
    • And thank you. Someday, you and I need to work on an article together. I'm a bit of a dullard compared to you but I bet we could find something enjoyable for the two of us to combine efforts on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Dullard? I don't think so. I'd enjoy working on an article with you, Dennis! LadyofShalott 14:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Well, your academic credentials far exceed mine, I have a degree in B.S. and working on a Masters in Common Sense at the School of Hard Knocks, but never attended a day of university, which makes me get lost around you academic types sometimes. ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:56, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
          • (talk page stalker) Most of us with degrees have one in BS; then some of us have gone on to MS (More of the Same), and then, ultimately, to PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper). Truth be told -- and someone wrote this up in book form awhile back -- all you really needed to know (be polite, wait your turn, say please and thank you, etc., etc.) you learned in kindergarten. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 16:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
            • If only everyone had learnt those things :D Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks again for the help Dennis. It looks like you got this cleaned up pretty good. I deleted some of the redirects these 2 accts created. I also tagged the image for CSD, if you want to do the honors: File:Jaylen Bledsoe (2012 Interview) .png. INeverCry 19:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I will let another cut the cord so I don't look single minded and involved. I've found that very often, the most indignant and offended people are really socks. Most people without a financial interest aren't as likely to be an ass. I've seen paid spammers try to use the "donation" angle, which is silly since we don't get the money and is sure to totally offend a volunteer. You would probably do well as an SPI clerk, but there is a waiting list. You have the right demeanor for it. It has been very educational for me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I do like to chase socks around a bit. The problem is that the short supply of admins on Commons willing to do deletions limits the time I have to do anything but that. I've also been trying to cut down on the ammount of time I spend on the computer each day. I'll probably end up doing only deletions, and deletion taggings, which would still take atleast 2 or 3 hours per day. INeverCry 20:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

User talk:68.50.128.91

Would you mind taking a look at the edit war around the carnage at User talk:68.50.128.91 please? Toddst1 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to protect that page. Any further drama-mongering can go to ANI. Toddst1 (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

If we lock the page, we are effectively revoking talk page access for the IP without actually changing the block log. I think talk page access should have been revoked a while ago, but it's not clear to me whether recent events justify it. I don't have a strong feeling about this one way or the other.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Nice neutral notice...since DB has already been at the page and made his opinion clear. --Onorem (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Uh... how is the notice biased to one side or the other? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 I'm looking but a bit confused. Closing on another user's page isn't something I've done outside of when they wanted it, so I don't have the policy on that at the tip of my brain, will have to look. I don't think dragging to ANI will be less drama, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

After Onorem tried unsuccessfully to undo Todd's close, now the other IP has undone it and added their usual comments. At this point, I'd like to protect the page, either semi-, which would prevent both IPs from editing the page, or full, which would also prevent Onorem from editing it. I'm not going to do this on my own, although one agreement from either of you (Todd or Dennis) would be enough for me.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)x3 again and i've removed the irrelevant chat: I've checked a number of policies and found nothing to indicate how to handle when an admin wants to close a discussion on another users page against their desire. I'm having to assume that the 68* ip wouldn't want it closed either and they are reverting by proxy because he is unavailable. I'm not sure you can make them close the discussion, or at least 68*. If you see something that otherwise qualifies as WP:DE or whatever, fine, but I think we probably need to not force the issue on closing the discussion, unless you are claiming it under WP:IAR (not recommended) or there is some other policy that I'm just not aware of. I'm not sure how protection fits in here either. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Tangentially related: I've popped a thread up at WT:UP, inspired by that conversation. That's right Dennis, you inspire me. Yunshui 雲‍水 21:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I had already replied to the other discussion by the time you notified ;-) Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry it was a bit late - blame Writ Keeper, he came poking around my talkpage with some nonsense about protecting the ozone layer... Yunshui 雲‍水 21:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Damn hippies. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis. Toddst1 (talk) 21:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Echo

Just wondering, did you get a notification when I mentioned you as the blocking admin on User talk:Volunteer Eddy? (Seeing if actually linking is required or merely having the link be present as an argument to a template is enough.) If not, could you reply? Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• I got the notification but you didn't ask a question, so I generally don't respond unless asked a question. On socks, I generally don't explain in every detail since I was instructed to not teach the socks any methods used, but I did provide the one diff showing the pov and the rest was comparative. Email is fine as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 10:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 08:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Article

Toss some topic ideas at me. I'll leave the cars to you and Mall..er...Eric, but I'm sure we can find something fun to work on together. Perhaps something historical in NC? Or...???? LadyofShalott 04:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Americana has a big appeal to me, I swear I'm going to retire to an RV and tour the states. On that subject, Lexington Barbecue Festival is near and dear to me since I started it and did all the photography and live there. Sourcing is a little scarce but more exists. It will never be a huge article, but I would love to see it cleaned up to GA quality. Barbecue in North Carolina is another one, but too big a project for two. Roswell UFO Festival is currently a redirect, but I've always wanted to look and see if it is notable enough for an article. I bet the festival itself is a hoot. Coffee is brewing, I'm sure I can throw out some other ideas once I'm adequately caffeinated.

Tri-Five

Just a note that I'm more than willing to help you get this up to GA standard :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)