Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:38, 2 June 2013

More concrete evidence?

The RfC/U states "He adds negative material to articles about conservative political figures and organizations, no matter how trivial or irrelevant it might be, or how much it employs fallacies such as guilt by association; and he removes negative content about progressive political figures and organizations." Diffs of such behavior should be presented. Having a generic call for "Any Editor: Please provide any evidence here. Will work on formatting the evidence as it builds." is not an appropriate substitute. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about others, but I'm here just help give Xenophrenic a nudge to change their behavior a little. The 10 day snapshot from one article that I was forced to build at ANI (which someone linked here) give a really good glimpse. The nature of the behavior is the sum of the parts, not any individual really bad items. What would you want......a list of their last 1,000 edits, and notes showing that 90% are relentlessly towards tilting articles towards one particular end of the political spectrum? Would Xenophrenic want someone to make that effort? My own hope is just saying enough here to convince Xenophrenic to change a bit, NOT enough to get them in trouble. Unless someone forces the latter by declaring that any input without the latter is illegitimate. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a quote from WP:TE: "Thus a single edit is unlikely to be a problem, but a pattern of edits displaying a bias is more likely to be an issue, and repeated biased edits to a single article or group of articles will be very unwelcome indeed." As the WP:TE policy confirms, looking at a diff of a single edit by Xeno isn't going to prove anything. Looking, with enormous patience and diligence, through 100 diffs of 100 different edits by Xeno might adequately convey what he's doing. Four different editors have given summaries of Xeno's behavior, or endorsed such summaries, and found that behavior to be problematic. Xeno, rather than participating, is attempting to get the RfC/U deleted by edit-warring it into the "Candidates" section rather than the "Certified" section. This is actually a pretty good example of his editing style. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

With the risk of sounding pedantic, proving that a pattern of edits exists requires listing some sample edits from said pattern. Your presentation of evidence against Xenophrenic was found by Arbitrators to be lacking substance. Simply copying your assertions from there over here--which is what the bulk of the evidence presented insofar consists of--isn't likely to convince many uninvolved editors either. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 00:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

@5.12.68.204 - Thanks for asking for evidence. Looking at the responses that follow from North and P&W, it doesn't appear likely we're going to see any. There is a tendency to cite the WP:TE essay as a free pass to cast aspersions without having to produce substantiation. They misrepresent it as a license to not have to cite even a single "biased edit". They conveniently overlook the fact that the essay also defines tendentious editing as "not conforming to the neutral point of view" policy, which, if it is actually occurring, can always be demonstrated through the citation of diffs.

@North - Tell me something, if I wanted you to change your behavior of repeatedly beating your wife, but you denied doing it, how productive do you think my nudging you to change your behavior "just a little" would be? Would you stop beating your wife if I said that I otherwise liked you? Would you stop beating your wife if I said I thought your repeated wife beatings were "not a big deal"? What would be the best way to get you to stop beating your wife; behavior that you deny?

@P&W - Please understand that editing toward NPOV and against your personal POV is not tendentious editing. Disagreeing with your personal POV is not against policy. Yes, 4 editors, all presently on the same side in an ongoing content dispute, have have all whispered the same allegations without substantiation. (Yes, I've looked closely at the few diffs on the RFC/U page.) That doesn't make them any more true than the thousands of whispered allegations against McCain. If you'd like to participate in collaborative editing instead of POV editing, I highly recommend it and would welcome that. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It looks like a most experienced editor has offered some practical advice regarding evidence and the advice was well received, at least in theory . 5.12.68.204 (talk) 05:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

@Xeno: Is it your position that you are "editing toward NPOV and against personal POV"? Really? Where is it, on the political spectrum, that you would suppose NPOV resides in an article such as Tea Party movement? Somewhere between Huffington Post and MSNBC? Please be specific. If you truly believe that you are "editing toward NPOV," then certainly you should be able to come up with a point on the political spectrum and describe it accurately, as your personal goal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

P&W, to answer your first question, yes, I do edit toward WP:NPOV, and sometimes that means against your POV. Sometimes it is minor, such as removing unsourced fluffy language calling Palin one of the most popular leaders of the Tea Party movement. Other times it is more substantial, such as when you replace anti-immigration descriptions with anti-illegal-immigration descriptions, or astroturf with grassroots. A more neutral treatment of this content would be to adhere to what reliable sources say, that there are components of each and not just one to the exclusion of the other. As for the rest of your questions regarding spectrums and HuffPo and MSNBC, you have lost me - I really can't make out what you are asking. Perhaps rephrase? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

So what becomes of this...

... Punitive blocks, topic ban, some type of probation?

Not sure what Xeno has been up to lately, but from what I experienced he's definitely tenacious in his POV-pushing. Personally, I don't have a problem with people having their own opinions and such -- But, editors around here should at least try to temper those views in the name of NPOV. The next time I witness Xeno doing this will be the first. No joke. †TE†Talk 18:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

In other venues, I've suggested a topic ban from all articles related to U.S. politics, broadly construed; I've also suggested that Xeno could get this topic ban lifted after a suitable period (six months to a year) of productive editing on other types of articles. Malke has also suggested the involvement of a mentor. And I've also indicated that Xeno could participate in this RfC/U, admit that his behavior is problematic, and resolve to change. Furthermore, I've indicated that I would welcome that resolution of this matter, and that it would make such a topic ban unnecessary. I think Xeno is capable of being a very productive editor. He simply needs to check his progressive bias at the door, give up his tendentious behavior, and work as part of a team of colleagues. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hiya, Mookie! Dusting off the ol' TE?

P&W, thank you for the kind words. I think you have the potential to be a very productive editor, too. If you are willing to make an attempt at working collaboratively instead of competitively, I think that would be awesome. In the meantime, it has been suggested by WhatamIdoing that I politely request that you try to explain their concerns to me again. Can we try that? I can't make heads or tails out of huge 216 edit, 18 user diffs like this that you gave as examples. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 01:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you think you may have a blind spot regarding your own behavior, Xeno? You've been blocked for editwarring three times. User:WhatamIdoing has confirmed that this RfC/U is appropriate, and moved it back to "Certified" herself. User:NE Ent and User:Nyttend have both indicated, in the WP:ANI thread that you started, that these concerns are legitimately stated. On the Project page itself, North8000, Malke 2010, Arthur Rubin, Collect, ThinkEnemies, and Nathan Johnson have all indicated support for various versions of "Xenophrenic is a tendentious editor." Now here's something else that should make you stop and think long and hard. Yes, I canvassed, and you've been very diligent about tracking down my canvassing efforts. So certainly you're aware I was also very careful to canvass two people who were on your side in these content disputes: Ubikwit and TFD. Judging from his edits on your User Talk page, TMCk is also well aware of this RfC/U. And none of these three editors is stepping in here to defend you. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:19, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Blind spot regarding my behavior? Nobody knows me as well as I do, and I'm quite self-aware of many flaws and imperfections. If you wish to make a good faith effort at affecting a positive behavioral change in a person, you will need to indicate an actual behavior problem as well as a solution. A couple of contrasting examples:

• It's been said that sometimes my posts are unnecessarily long, and appear to be "walls of text" that need to be written more concisely. That turns out to be a legitimate assessment, and in response I've been working on improvement in that area. (You may not see it yet, but then you can't see the rough-drafts of my posts before I trim them down and click the 'Save page' button -- trust me, there is improvement.)
• It's been said that I "seek to make sure that people know how evil the Tea Party movement is, that it is racist, bigoted, homophobic etc." That is not a legitimate assessment, and in response I ignore it, or if repeated enough, I press people for substantiation - much to their frustration, because they can't.

No, P&W, I do not have a blind spot regarding my behavior. I will, however, turn a blind eye toward false and unsubstantiated characterizations of my behavior - or relentlessly press for substantiation, depending. That's why your comments about how many editors you can get to say "Me too!" (or how many I can get to do the same) aren't relevant to me for this discussion. No amount of "Me too!" exclamations in unison will turn a false accusation into a fact. On one hand, you claim this is a good faith effort to improve behavior, yet on the other hand, you feel that other editors should "defend" me against your effort? Interesting. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Please be careful with your interpretations of others' words. I made no comment on the merits of the RFCU nor said anything about the legitimacy of the concerns of its originators; all I said was that the procedural requirements of the RFC process had been met and that the page therefore didn't qualify for deletion. Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

That's correct, I said you indicated the "concerns are legitimately stated." I did not say you indicated the "concerns are legitimate," nor did I intend to misrepresent what you said. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean now; I apologise for misunderstanding and complaining as a result. Nyttend (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, more concrete evidence

I'm starting to assemble some diffs in the project mainspace. This only goes back to April 19 (37 days) April 1 (55 days) and virtually ignored Tea Party movement and related pages, which is the current centerpiece of Xenophrenic's editing; it includes only one incident from those pages. Instead, it focuses on other articles related to U.S. politics. I will expand it in the morning. Please bear in mind that this only covers the past 37 55 days of Xenophrenic's edits. The allegation against Xenophrenic is that this represents a pattern of behavior going back at least four years. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going through those diffs definitely bring back bad memories. Hopefully, your efforts won't be for not and real change can occur. Knock on wood. †TE†Talk 01:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

In light of his previous contributions to this page, and his extended efforts to get this RfC/U deleted after several previously uninvolved editors told him that deletion wasn't going to happen, I am not optimistic. At one point above, Xenophrenic used the analogy of a wife-beater and in effect, he compared himself to a wife-beater. I am saddened to observe that it's a fairly accurate comparison in some ways. Like a wife-beater, he's deep in denial. When presented with incontrovertible, comprehensive proof, he's probably going to blame the victim — and in fact, has already laid the foundation for such a defense with his "I'm editing toward NPOV, and against your POV" statements. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll include samples of discussions that are recurring since they are the best examples of tendentious editing. And ThinkEnemies, if you have examples and suggestions it would be appreciated. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

All my examples are from so long ago, Malke. I wouldn't know where to begin. I think the larger issue at hand is Xeno's modus operandi of tenacious editing, POV-pushing and perpetual edit warring seems to have gone unchecked which has undoubtedly been bad for the project. †TE†Talk 16:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going off memory of my first encounter with Xeno was on Susan Roesgen. After I had the article protected for 3 days in a content dispute, Xeno came right back to renew the edit war, while also removing the BLP Dispute tag. That was especially tenacious, IMO. (Xeno used these intermittent edits as an excuse to reinsert his preferred version of the content dispute.) †TE†Talk 16:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

After CNN decided to part ways Susan Roesgen and removed her bio from their website, Xeno found an archived version to use. That was just weird. †TE†Talk 17:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I do remember that. He fought like crazy. It's okay if it's old since he's still exhibiting the behaviours. If he'd changed and wasn't doing those things anymore, then they wouldn't be useful. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Remember McAllister and Cynthia Tucker's "quote"? It came back here, again: . Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's the Lenny McAllister discussion that you were involved in . Malke 2010 (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Going back in time, I'm glad the nightmares have stopped. ;-) †TE†Talk 19:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The kicker here, the icing on the cake, is that this particular 79-day period of representative evidence comes at a time when Xenophrenic already knew he was under scrutiny due to a conduct-based thread at WP:ANI, as well as the ArbCom investigation regarding the Tea Party movement article. One would think that with both community-based and ArbCom-based spotlights shining on him, Xenophrenic would be on his best behavior during this 79-day period. It is presented as a representative sample of Xenophrenic's editing at Misplaced Pages, dating back four years to 2009, when I first encountered him at Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now and at articles related to Ward Churchill. I notice also that one of Xenophrenic's two amicus editors, User:Casprings, has cited the following sentences from a proposed finding at ArbCom: "Xenophrenic was blocked in 2011 for breaking community sanctions on Tea Party movement, and was blocked twice in 2007 and once in 2013 for edit warring on other articles. Xenophrenic has made 573 edits to the talkpage. There was no community support for a topic ban, Xenophrenic is not named as a party, and there is little evidence presented in the case to point to sanctions."

Casprings then posts the view that "This summery is correct." This admits that Xenophrenic has been blocked four times for editwarring, in addition to the many, many times he has editwarred (in my opinion) without being blocked for it. Casprings also acknowledges that Xenophrenic is not named as a party at ArbCom, and further admits that the proposed finding of "no sanctions" is limited to the narrow range of evidence presented at ArbCom, which does not address any editing at all beyond pages related to Tea Party movement. In fact, I'd suggest that editors presenting evidence against him at ArbCom haven't been very diligent. The histories of the TPm pages are rich with examples of Xenophrenic's generally tendentious, battleground behavior that have not been presented in the ArbCom evidence. Furthermore, the "no community support for a topic ban" occurred on February 26, and was again limited to a tiny fraction of the available evidence at that time: a few diffs, out of the many that were available, at the TPm article. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Phonenix and Winslow: Regarding Xenophrenic's behaviours while under ANI/ArbCom scrutiny, yes that's quite the kicker. If you have diffs that will show better evidence for ArbCom, I'd appreciate you posting them as I will certainly post them on the Workshop page. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Tag Team Question

One of the rules that User:Xenophrenic is said to have violated is the rule against tag team editing. However, tag team editing involves collusion by two or more editors. The RFC doesn't state who is the collaborator or meatpuppet of Xenophrenic. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The most stringent definition of "tag teaming" (organized collusion) is the one you just cited; I don't believe that such is the case here. At the opposite end of the spectrum, persons with viewpoints opposite of Xenophrenic's have been accused of tag teaming for merely having the same view. However, at the TPM article, roughly speaking, the pattern has been that whenever extra help is needed to make sure that Xenophrenic dominated the result on the article page, usually Goethean stepped in to do that. North8000 (talk) 01:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, as well as a few others whom I'd never seen on the article before. There's quite the interesting thread on the talk page about the tobacco bits. I couldn't believe how rapidly the tag-teams assembled there and quickly drove the issue off the point and into multiple sub-threads that devolved into tendentious time-sinks. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There was a recent editwar over a "sandbox" page called Talk:Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion/Perceptions of the Tea Party. In that one, Xenophrenic's tag team partner was User:Ubikwit. The really sad, depressing, intimidating thing about trying to gently steer toward NPOV in Misplaced Pages political articles is that wherever Xenophrenic goes, whatever article he decides to parachute into and start editing, there's probably at least one candidate willing to be his next tag team partner. It's been like this for years. Changing it is going to take an enormous amount of work. There has to be a fundamental change in Misplaced Pages culture. The policies are there, they just need to be enforced. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the way I saw that was as you and Collect tag-teaming Xenophrenic and trying to justify the edits you wanted to push through by falsely claiming that there was consensus for the edits, implying that I was in agreement with the edits insofar as I had been active in the related discussion on the Talk page, where you failed to bring up the nature of the radical and illogical reordering of the subsections.

Accordingly, my revert (w/substantial edit summary) of your falsely asserted consensus version was not a POV push carried out in collusion with Xenophrenic, but a defense of the more neutral version in the form it had been moved over from the main article against the rapid edits an reverts made by you and Collect against Xenophreic with the implication that I was in consensus with the edits, which would obviously was not (and is not) the case.

It should be pointed out that in your edit to the moderated discussion of 15:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC), you state

(creating the article, Perceptions of the Tea Party; I'm not 100% sure about that title, but let's proceed with what we've got)

and

This is based on a paragraph text that was proposed by Xenophrenic several days ago, and I've added this phrase at the end: "... as well as examinations of news media coverage."

The content of those statements/proposed edits would seem to amount to a belated recognition of the merit of all of the above-raised points.

I other words, the placement of the mention of the media coverage aspect at the end of the paragraph would seem to recognize that such is the logically ordering, and therefore that the reordering of the media coverage subsection to the position of first subsection is illogical (i.e., before introducing the material (incidents) being covered, etc.), because that subsection should come at the end of the subarticle.

And you call into question the title of the subarticle, yet persist in keeping that title and moving the article into mainspace before having sorted the problem out.

Is that perhaps aimed at maintaining some semblance of progress in the moderated discussion?

I fail to see a basis for your accusing me of POV pushing (in collusion with Xenophrenic) on the basis of the foregoing, especially in light of the fact that you presently tend to agree with the key points (and implicitly they're reflection of a NPOV) that I had been raising in the discussion even prior to the edits reversing the order, etc.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 06:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Please restrict your arguments to actual real facts. I find your personal aspersions to be about as unhelpful here as any I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages, and about as far removed from fact as any I have seen on Misplaced Pages. Please read and abide by WP:NPA amd WP:CONSENSUS. Note consensus is not the same as unanimity, nor does any editor have "veto power" over consensus as long as Misplaced Pages policies are not violated. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

What is your hyperbole about "aspersions" about? This has been discussed at length, so it is somewhat surprising that P&W would accuse me of being engaged in a tag-team with Xenophrenic, when it was in fact as I described above. What part of the "actual real facts" do you dispute? And what is your insinuation about WP:NPA in relation to? No need to be cryptic or use innuendo.

Here are the diffs of your consecutive reverts performed occurring between two edits (one being the final revert) by P&W

Note that I only have one revert to your two reverts. I would suggest that if you want to start accusing editors of violating WP:NPA, you level your warnings at P&W, not me. My response, detailing your editing history in relation to the accusations, is simply a recounting of the facts.

And for the record, it was this edit by P&W that would seem to have started the edit war, as he appeals to a non-existent "current state of consensus" in the edit summary (Since Xeno insists on chronological order I suppose the best way to represent current state of consensus is to bury this section at the bottom of the article)--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 09:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The content of those statements/proposed edits would seem to amount to a belated recognition of the merit of all of the above-raised points. Ummm, no. Sorry. I think you're reading way too much into the arrangement of the phrases. I don't feel that the arrangement of the phrases in a summary paragraph in the parent article is all that important. What's important is the arrangement of the sections in the spin-off article that's being summarized, and the content of those sections. I'd rather not rehash the argument over the arrangement of those sections, but as you can plainly see from the Moderated Discussion page, that sectional arrangement really does have consensus — not just once, but twice:

That second link, by the way, was an effort to accommodate your concerns about the word "Alleged" in the section header, Ubikwit. And we had been talking about it for several days. For further enlightenment please see the anecdotal evidence article, as well as this sentence from WP:TAGTEAM: "Tag team members will often revert changes, even if they are made based on talkpage consensus, and instead insist that consensus isn't clear yet, and more talking needs to happen on the talk page." I feel that even though you and I disagree in a lot of content and sourcing matters, we can work together and should work together. Hence the compromise I've tried to work out on the word "alleged." Some of the more heinous examples of bigoted behavior by a few Tea Party members ended up right at the top of the article, Ubikwit, because I am able to work with you. I just don't feel the same way about Xenophrenic after all that he's done. He needs to change his behavior. kind regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

P&W and Collect and North8000 have it right about Xenophrenic's behaviours. He's aggressively pushed his POV, but he modulated that behaviour much better several years ago. Now he seems to behave as someone who believes he is not subject to consequences. And this is what has brought about this RfC/U. As regards the ArbCom being stalled. None of us knows the internal machinations of Misplaced Pages and what other cases are occupying them. And none of us can say for sure how things will go there. In the meantime, we have to edit with Xenophrenic. We are stuck with someone who will initiate an edit-war without any fear of consequences. Someone who will make scathing personal attacks and confound consensus because "I don't ivote." He has even argued with Silk Tork about policy. Xenophrenic argues with him on his talk page. What chance do any of us have?

Regarding Ubikwit's making personal comments, he's already got an interaction ban with Evildoer. He's already banned from another article. He appears to have transferred his disruption to Tea Party movement. Most of you have probably noticed that he's got quite the fixation on me. Check the ArbCom workshop page, the moderated discussion page, and the old ANI where he started all this. I'm thinking of asking for an interaction ban. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment

I just want to acknowledge that I received a request by User:Phoenix and Winslow to comment on User:Xenophrenic's editing based on my experiences. I've been fairly busy lately but I'll try to review all the material sometime soon and potentially comment. I also took note that this RfC/U was expanded recently with detailed content added by Phoenix and Winslow and matching response content by Xenophrenic, with specific reference diffs; good to see that it has matured into something that permits direct examination of the underlying facts and a chance to better evaluate the conclusions drawn therefrom. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:49, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

What's needed is comments from uninvolved editors. Oddly enough, I might just be the closest thing to one around here. How'd that happen? †TE†Talk 02:57, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? You appear to have had content disputes with Xenophrenic while you were using the MookieG account. MookieG's edit summaries alone addressed Xenophrenic several times by name and some of those were clearly reverts, for example . 5.12.68.204 (talk) 08:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Never claimed I was uninvolved, IP address. I might be the closest thing to being uninvolved due to my extended hiatus. And you need look no further than my current account to see content disputes with Xeno. Many of them, I'd assume. If you'd like to continue this on Requests for comment/ThinkEnemies, be my guest. This page is Requests for comment/Xenophrenic, from what I can tell. †TE†Talk 12:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

discussion about comment 2 from North8000 (moved from project page)

It is completely unsurprising that a prominent member of one side of the content disputes of which this RFC is a part thinks that this RFC should remain open indefinitely or until his side gets the votes that it needs. — goethean 00:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, why don't you address the view instead of falsely impugning the person who expressed it? But, more to the point (and how your comment missed it):T he more thorough the review, the more accurate the results. Thoroughness refutes incorrect assertions and reinforces correct ones. North8000 (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

• IMHO, this is a case where the evidence informs and supports the general assertions and concerns about behavior expressed. A huge volume of evidence was presented. --North8000

North, since the goal of this RFC/U is to get me to change alleged behavior expressed, and I'm obviously having difficulty seeing that behavior, would you mind pointing to the evidence that you feel best illuminates your concern? I see that you didn't provide specific evidence in your Views/Comments on the main page, so I assume you are referring to evidence provided by another editor. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Xenophrenic, The one time that I spent several hours collecting evidence is when I was forced to at the ANI, which what an approx 10 day snapshot of your actions at the TPM article. That has been incorporated here via linking by somebody else. Other that that, so far what I've done is stated that I have hand an immense amount of interaction with and observation of you and just given my good faith honest summary drawn from it. Also I have hopefully established that bear no ill will towards you (I actually LIKE you) but am also very blunt about what I see, particularly when I have had an immense amount of observation to be confident that I know enough to be correct. I am hoping that I have some credibility. Beyond the hours I spent on that 10 day one article sampler, I have not gathered and presented additional evidence. If you want me to "point to" evidence, it would be to what has already been presented in the RFC/U, which is pretty substantial. If you want to push me into spending more hours gathering and presenting more evidence, I will reluctantly do so, and it will further reinforce what I said. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

North, your several hours spent finding evidence resulted in a total of 4 'examples'. One of those wasn't even about me, and concerned an entirely different editor (which I feel speaks volumes about the care you put into this compilation of "evidence"). After closer scrutiny, it turned out your remaining 3 examples didn't support your assertions either; not even "generally". In fact, they confirmed that I edited properly, engaged editors in dicussion on the matters, adhered to policy, and even implemented compromise. Please be clear that I am not denying that you "feel" the way that you do, nor am I denying that you and I "disagreed" with each other in those examples. My concern is that you have taken your personal feelings, and our disagreements, and unjustly extrapolated that into an unsupported charge of "extreme tendentious" behavior and "nastiness". Regarding you "liking" me, I would trade that in without hesitation for some simple respect. In the meantime, I must take you up on your offer to produce evidence that actually supports your mischaracterization of me. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

IMHO that's not accurate. IMHO that 1-article-10 day sampler I produced (which was linked in this FC/U) indicated relentless TE towards a particular political bias. North8000 (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, North? Removing a sentence that claimed the first Tea Party of the Movement was a Ron Paul campaign fundraiser moneybomb event back in 2007, when it had nothing to do with the Tea Party movement subject of our article? What political bias is that, exactly? Returning a deleted percentage to go along with a numeric count is political bias? If we can get back to seriousness, I eagerly await that new evidence you said you would produce. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Comment on my (Arthur Rubin's) participation here

About 2 days ago, I lost contact with Misplaced Pages through normal DNS means. I'm using an open proxy to edit here, but it mangles any URLs, so I can't edit any section with diffs (other than with {{diff}}) or references. I have a specific example of Xenophrenic's tendentious editing which hasn't yet been mentioned here, but I can't figure out how to present it at this time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:42, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Either post it as a mal-formed diff "xxx dot xxx number 123567897" which anyone here would remedy, or email it to another poster who would doubtless post it properly, I suspect. Collect (talk) 13:02, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes Arthur, email your link to anyone of us, we will get it up there. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It appears I was wrong. It was given as a specific example by the certifiers. I can go into more detail, and make it a specific claim, as X and U seem to think it was mal-formed on my part and a personal attack against X, even though anyone in his right (or even left) mind should be able to see it was a comment on X's edits in the "moderated discussion". Neither of us was meeting the requirements of the moderated discussion, but X would have been considered to have violated 3RR on the talk page if there weren't a colorable claim that there was a personal attack, and should have been so considered, as the claim was clearly faulty. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

A few questions for Xenophrenic‎

I have a few questions for Xeno. I hope he will answer them. I know he likes to interleave his answers so I'll put a signature at the end of each question.

• As I understand it, during the period that we are currently reviewing, you were reverting other people's edits on about 16-18 different articles. Roughly 12-16 different editors were involved. And it's your position that you were the only one editing toward NPOV, and all those other people were POV-pushing. So you were obeying Misplaced Pages policy, and all those other people were violating policy. Is that a fair summary of your response in this RfC/U? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I like to post my responses right after the comments (marked by a signature) to which I am responding; standard Talk page format. If you had made this a single post with a single signature, I would still respond at the end of it, but I would quote portions of it as I responded. Since you segmented your comment into parts each with their own signature, I can respond to each individually without the need to quote you. I appreciate you doing that.

I haven't said that I am the only one editing toward a neutral POV. I said that my edits do not show the problematic behavior other editors claim they do. In cases where my edits affect POV, I contend that my edits attempt to move that POV towards a neutral middle, and not closer to a POV extreme. Just because a bit of information appears to be negative or positive (i.e.; he was convicted of murder; he won the election in a record-breaking landslide) doesn't make it POV. A big part of NPOV editing is conveying accurate information in a non-judgemental, disinterested tone. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• I haven't said that I am the only one editing toward a neutral POV. No, you haven't said it, but I think it's a reasonable summary of what you've said. I posted dozens of diffs highlighting your interaction with a fairly large group of editors, scattered over more than a dozen articles; and out of that entire group, it's reasonable to characterize your defense as, "I'm the only one editing toward NPOV, and all those other people are POV-pushing."
• Just because a bit of information appears to be negative or positive (i.e.; he was convicted of murder; he won the election in a record-breaking landslide) doesn't make it POV. When a larger and larger portion of an article is devoted to negative information about an article's subject, it tends more and more toward a negative POV. My position is that your edits consistently, almost without exception, add negative information and spin to articles about conservative persons and organizations, and remove negative information and spin to articles about progressive persons and organizations. And I'm getting a lot of support for that position. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

No, that's not a reasonable summary. The reasonable summary would be, "In cases where my edits affect POV, I contend that my edits attempt to move that POV towards a neutral middle, and not closer to a POV extreme."

Information in our articles should be conveyed in a balanced, proportionate manner that reflects appropriate weight as established by reliable sources. You are correct that I add and remove information. You are also correct that I edit articles about conservatives, progressives, liberals, etc. You previously charged that I "POV" these articles with my edits, that I slant them - an accusation that is false, and for which you've provided zero evidence to substantiate. Are you now changing your complaint to instead say that when I'm busying myself removing unbalancing POV material from articles to promote NPOV, I should focus more on conservative articles than I now do? And conversely, when I'm adding neutral or "positive" information to articles to establish NPOV, I need to spend more time doing that on conservative articles instead of other articles? (By the way, please note that every single example you say shows me "adding" negative info to articles is actually "reverting the removal" of said info.) Xenophrenic (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• I see. So you're acknowledging that you do a lot of reverting. Thanks for that. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Reverting? So do I and plenty of other editors, including you.TMCk (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• I asked you this question several days ago and you pretended that you didn't know what I was talking about, so I'll rephrase. Since you are claiming that you are "editing toward NPOV," you must have an idea of where NPOV is, so to speak. Would you please identify one or more periodicals and/or websites, which we have cited as sources in the discussions about Tea Party movement and the "Perceptions" spin-off article, that you believe to be the closest to NPOV? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do you start off your question by accusing me of pretending? If I don't understand what you've said, I'll say so and request that you rephrase. What purpose would it serve to "pretend"? Now that you have rephrased, I see more clearly why I didn't get what you were saying. NPOV is a Misplaced Pages construct that guides our editing of articles; it isn't applied to sources. Asking me to identify a source closest to NPOV is nonsensical to me. Sources are used based on their accuracy and reliability, often with little regard for whether they have a neutral take on the subject. The policy is: Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• Sources are used based on their accuracy and reliability, often with little regard for whether they have a neutral take on the subject. I will take greater care to adopt precisely the terms you are using so that you can no longer pretend to not understand what I'm asking: So you finally acknowledge that some sources do have a neutral take on these subjects. In your opinion, which periodicals and websites most frequently exhibit a neutral take on these political subjects? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

"pretend to not understand" again? What purpose would that serve?

And no, I made no such acknowledgement. Asking me to identify a source closest to NPOV is nonsensical to me. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• It makes a great deal of sense to a lot of people, because it would geolocate your perception of where NPOV is: is it closer to the worldview of Rachel Maddow, or Glenn Beck? Closer to the political stance of The Huffington Post, or The National Review? You claim that you're pushing articles in the direction of NPOV. Surely you must have some idea where that goal is located, and you've been dodging this issue for quite a long time. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• Several weeks ago at Talk:Tea Party movement, I cited and linked the following in-depth, academic, peer-reviewed study: You indicated at the time that you did not have the time to read it. Have you had a chance to read it yet? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I've read it. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• That peer-reviewed study, published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found that "Misplaced Pages's political entries lean Democrat, on average, and tend to be biased. Both of these traits diminish over time ... evidence further points to persistence of bias in many articles. ... Overall, the many new articles with different views lead to NPOV across Misplaced Pages's political articles, but not necessarily a NPOV within each article or topic." (pp.3-4.) Given this type of environment — where political articles tend to lean in favor of the Democratic Party, and where this bias tends to persist in many articles — how did you find roughly 12-16 Republican POV-pushers to revert? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't accept the false pretext of your question. First, you've misquoted out of context, leaving out the text that says articles that "lean Democrat" was in Misplaced Pages's early years, and that more recently the articles "lack much slant" and have less bias. Second, I don't find Republican POV-pushers. I have articles on watchlists. When edits are made to those articles, I often review them. Dozens or even hundreds of productive edits may pass before I make an edit, and when I review an edit that is problematic, I fix it if I can. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• ... that more recently the articles "lack much slant" and have less bias. "Less bias" is not "zero bias," and the overall finding of "less bias" is due more to addition of new articles, than to any correction of the pro-Democrat bias in existing articles. Correction of the pro-Democrat bias in existing articles is what this is about. You appear to be reverting every such effort you encounter, and it frequently leads to an editwar. In light of the findings of the NBER study, how is it that you've encountered 12-16 Republican POV-pushers? And in light of those findings, do you think it's possible that they're the ones who are editing toward NPOV, by attempting to correct the pro-Democrat bias that still exists? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

"You appear to be reverting every such effort you encounter" -- incorrect. Every effort to correct NPOV problems I leave untouched. The efforts I do revert are the non-neutral editing efforts, as shown in the 16 articles you've noted as examples. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

About the peer-reviewed study:
I've not read the whole thing (as of now), just the abstract which states:
"Analyzing a decade of Misplaced Pages’s articles on US politics, we examine which aspects of collective intelligence leads to a neutral point of view. Our null hypothesis builds on Linus’ Law, often expressed as "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." We find a tendency toward more neutrality in Misplaced Pages articles on average, but only mixed support for Linus’ Law. The evidence is consistent with a narrow interpretation of Linus’ Law at best, namely, the amount of attention received by an article shapes its neutrality. However, the majority of articles receive little attention, and most articles change only mildly from their initial slant. The arrival of new articles accounts for the tendency of Misplaced Pages to become more neutral on average."
Could it be that you again cherry-picked some quotes that further advance your point of view? Just asking and wondering what this actually has to do with Xenophrenic‎'s edits and the RFC/U.TMCk (talk) 01:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• Could it be that you again cherry-picked some quotes that further advance your point of view? No, what I quoted is what the NBER published report says. Read it. Pages 3 and 4, like I said. Here's the link again. Your assumption of bad faith is duly noted. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:40, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Guess you got it back wards somehow and since I didn't cherry pick any quotes at all you might just actually mean that the abstract doesn't serve you well as your cherry-picked quotes are by now confirmed as to be taken out of context. You keep on advancing your personal agenda with again and again false distractions proofed to be false. Again, I urge you to file a RFC/U on yourself since as have seen so far, your allegations mostly fit your own editing rather than others.

Context is everything. The entire sentence reads; Greenstein and Zhu (2012) show that in its earliest years, Misplaced Pages’s political entries lean Democrat, on average, and tend to be biased. Both of these traits diminish over time...There is a 90% decline in bias between the 2002 vintage and 2010 vintage articles. According to the study, the articles where the bias tends to persist are only those that have been rarely edited since creation. It later goes on to say that of the political articles that are not NPOV today, half lean Democrat and half lean Republican. The study found that the more editors who edit an article, the closer to NPOV it will be (pg 18 Misplaced Pages’s articles appear to be centered close to a middle point, on average). For example, biographies tend to lean Republican while civil rights articles tend to lean Democrat etc. Interestingly it found that the bias of the editor is statistically insignificant regarding an articles POV. Basically, the study supports that Xenophrenic's political bias is irrelevant as long as other editors are contributing to a page. If Xenophrenic is politically biased towards the Democrats (I haven't seen enough of his edits to know) then surely your own Republican bias is a counter. Is he tendentious? From what I have seen in the evidence, no more so than any of his opponents. Additionally, if we exclude Xenophrenic's BLP deletions which can be a grey area, all the evidence given regarding his edit-warring behavior is linked to the Talk page, can discussions on the Talk page be classified as edit-warring? Wayne (talk) 06:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

See above. Greenstein and Zhu have indicated that although the pro-Democrat bias has been reduced, it still exists; and it's been reduced mainly by the addition of articles that are more NPOV, rather than correcting the existing pro-Democrat bias in existing articles. The particular article we're primarily focused on, Tea Party movement, has been here since 2009 and it's been a mess. And no, I don't have a pro-Republican bias. If you take a look at the Moderated Discussion page, I've been going both ways. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

If you are not Republican I apologize. I took my cue from an article where you have been edit-warring against consensus for three years to remove any mention that a convicted criminal was a prominent political figure in the Republican Party at the time of his arrest. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions on such limited evidence. Wayne (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The criminal allegations had absolutely nothing to do with his political affiliation or activities and, like these other articles we're dealing with here, it shouldn't have been used as an opposition research trivia drawer. Nobody who was accused in the main group of allegations — child prostitution, kidnapping, murder, Satanic rituals, drug trafficking — was ever arrested based on those allegations. The grand jury ruled that they were a "carefully crafted hoax." All but two of the accusers recanted, those two were charged with perjury, one of the two was found mentally unfit to stand trial (having already gone to prison on other felony charges), and the one remaining accuser did go to prison on a perjury charge for several years. "Edit-warring against consensus" was two against one, and I was eventually vindicated because your favorite source was found to be unreliable at WP:RSN; and then a couple of ArbCom members, User:Nuclear_Warfare and User:FloNight, came in and stubbed the article, removing your enormous pile of BLP violations. Nice job cherry-picking the facts there, Wayne, to present a badly distorted version of events. You tell half-truths, then I provide the other half of the truth and expose you as what you really are. It's what I've learned to expect from you. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the excerpt above. The less seen, more Xeno-dominated articles suffer from less NPOV, or more POV, if you will. †TE†Talk 01:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

TE, that the above excerpt doesn't mention any specific editor(s).So could you please pinpoint some "Xeno-dominated" articles (which "...suffer from less NPOV, or more POV,..." b/c of Xenophrenic's edits)? I might have missed them as I didn't see (or remember?) such in article's I have on my watch list. Thanks, TMCk (talk) 02:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Sure, on occasions I see an edit by the RFC's subject that seems to have some POV in it but when checking the article and sourcing it usually turns out to be a legit correction of content.TMCk (talk) 02:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Why should I do that? My opinions are based on a long history, one I'm not about to dig into. You claim to have done your research on Xeno? Are you in denial? Just look at his very latest article EDIT.

Bush defenders, really? Oh, but there's a movie review from CNN that used the phrase. Gee whiz, guess Xeno can claim RS now, eh? Let's ignore the NPOV and LEAD violations. Unless Christopher Hitchens, Ed Koch, Joe Scarborough and Daryn Kagan are well-established "Bush defenders." Maybe it was the Iraq War Vet and amputee who said he "agree with the President 100%." Xeno must've been referring to him. When's Bushdefenders Day again? †TE†Talk 05:39, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I saw that edit long before it was introduced a "evidence". I myself would've reverted the previous unsorced POV edit but would've left out the "Bush defenders". Even so properly sourced, it is/would be just serve as a silly reason to edit war over it. For onces I support PW's latest edit that didn't introduce the previous POV and left out the challenged "Bush defenders". Still, there was nothing wrong with the previous sourced content.TMCk (talk) 02:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinions, TE. I only press you for evidence when you try to pass your opinions off as fact. Looking at that edit you linked: Yes, "Bush defenders", as the cited sources stated. The film attacks Bush, so it stands to reason that Bush defenders would be the first to criticize it - it's not a controversial statement. Yes, the CNN piece is a reliable source, and no, it's not a "review". There were no NPOV or LEAD violations. The sentence summarized the article content properly. Yes, Ed Koch is a Bush supporter, endorser, and "defender" (it says so in his BLP). The Hitchens and Scarborough commentators are already covered in the sentence, and Kagan and Damon didn't criticize the film for factual accuracy. I don't know when Bushdefender's Day is. Xenophrenic (talk) 11:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• I only press you for evidence when you try to pass your opinions off as fact. It's a fact, and there are a lot of people signing on beneath it. Take note of how many people have endorsed various iterations of "Xenophrenic is a tendentious editor." Trying to dismiss this fact as an opinion is, in fact, your opinion.
• ... it stands to reason that Bush defenders would be the first to criticize it - it's not a controversial statement. It is an unneeded and inflammatory pejorative as the first person who reverted you indicated in his edit summary — he described it as a "loaded" term — and it does not belong in an encyclopedia article. It comes from the entertainment section, not a news article, not a peer-reviewed scholastic journal, even though it may not technically be a "movie review." And adding the term to an encyclopedia article is completely unnecessary. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Even if I ceded that cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies is a RS, you still are wrong about NPOV and LEAD. Stands to reason is not a policy, especially to go against the content of the article. There is no mention of Bush defenders. No argument for it at all. You say Ed Koch supported Bush in 2004, thus a Bush defender. I disagree. That's just asinine. If we applied this criteria to all politics-related articles it would amount to vandalism. Oh, but I see an unsourced sentence in Ed Koch's BLP says he once appeared in a documentary "defending Bush" and "blasting Michael Moore." Well, I guess now he's a Moore-blaster. Quick, get it in the lead. SMH. O-2, Xeno. †TE†Talk 13:14, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

If there is a real case against this user it still has to be made and presented.

• Note for context: The RFC/U was started May 22.

Lots of accusations were made against the RFC/U's subject, Xenophrenic, but the evidence at the project page is little to non, not standing up to the slightest scrutiny. As I pointed out in my endorsing of Xenophrenic's view (Response 1 by Xenophrenic), the examples given by PW are ridiculous, in part false, mostly wrongly declared and not convincing at all as one could take any editor's edits to the same scrutiny and tilt it against them if one chooses so, but that doesn't make them true and only stick if one doesn't take the time to check the accusations made and the links that supposed to back them up. Also blunt accusations were made here on this talk w/o back-up in form of diffs or otherwise which makes me think this is more of a "witch hunt" than a proper RFC/U. Maybe there are some merits to it but so far they were not presented. What was presented are mere opinionated accusations. Unless the addressed points are corrected and true proof of the alleged improper tendency of the subject is added as evidence, this RFC/U has no merit and should be closed rather sooner than later and marked as frivolous and disrupting as it, so far, only used up plenty of time, w/o real cause so far, that could've been used to make constructive edits in article space by all involved/commenting parties, incl. myself. RFC/U's are not there to pick a "random" user editing against ones own point of view in an article where they have a dispute. (Of course I'm talking about the Tea Party which basically triggered the user to file this RFC/U). Also I have to note that almost every endorsement "against" Xenophrenic is made by editors opposed to Xenophrenic's point of view at the Tea party pages/discussions and were canvassed by the initiator. Thank you for those who are truly listening and thinking it thru.TMCk (talk) 04:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Editors who push the same POV as Xenophrenic, in a similarly tendentious manner, are very likely to claim he hasn't done anything wrong, and that nothing has been proven. In fact, the evidence against Xenophrenic is overwhelming. I said at the beginning of this proceeding that it was being done for two purposes. The first purpose was to present evidence that Xenophrenic's behavior creates problems for the Community. That purpose has been fulfilled abundantly. The second purpose was to convince him that his behavior does cause these problems, and that he must resolve to change this behavior. And for the second purpose, this RfC/U has been a miserable failure. Considering the huge amount of evidence presented, it comes as no surprise that I made a mistake here and there. But it's clear that Xenophrenic got into more than a dozen content disputes with more than a dozen different people, on more than a dozen different articles, in about two and a half months; and that his habitual response to such situations was editwarring. Most damaging to Xenophrenic, all of this occurred when he knew there were two different spotlights pointed at him (ArbCom, and the community's via the February 26 ANI), and anyone would expect him to be on his best behavior during this period. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:03, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I stopped reading after your first sentence where you accuse me of having "the same POV" (whatever this really is) as the RFC's subject. Back it up or redact it Mr. PW. I'm really getting tired of your lies. No back-up for MY claim? Oh yes I have. Just check your recent edits at Ugg boots trademark disputes where you made false claims to edit war back content that was against consensus and you were even warned for doing so at the article's talk page where your edits incl. the one in question was discussed. But keep diggn' you hole Mr. It's your choice to make.TMCk (talk) 06:03, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm really starting to believe that after we're through examining Xenophrenic's behavioral issues, we should look into yours. The term to describe your issues is Wikihounding. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Save your time. Nothing will ever be done. †TE†Talk 15:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right; in order for something to be done, you must first produce evidence that something needs to be done. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It has become evident that there is some truth to "Xenophrenic's behavior creates problems" for some in the Community, in the same way that Misplaced Pages Policy and Guidelines create problems for those same individuals. Closer examination of P&W's "evidence" revealed he made not just "a mistake here and there", but in every example he provided, to varying degrees. The fact that my behavior remains constant, even while under review, is a strong indicator that you have not made what I can consider a persuasive argument for change.

You've recently claimed that you are just trying to get me to change what you see as problematic editing behavior (but is more accurately described as "behavior that you find problematic to your kind of editing), but that's not the true reason for this RfC/U. As you admitted in your original canvass message, you wanted to get me banned from the Tea Party article, and politics articles in general, and this RfC was just a necessary stepping-stone you needed to get out of the way before pressing for a ban. Granted, you did add that "And it is altogether possible that during the course of all these discussions, Xeno may accept that his behavior is unacceptable, and change his behavior without a topic ban at all", but I suspect you knew if you didn't present actionable evidence, then no change would occur. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence against Xeno. Some specific claims, which I consider adequately supported by evidence, are:

1. X has never made an edit against the "liberal" position or for the "conservative" position on any of the articles in question.

   Some of those may be have been editing toward WP:NPOV.

   This would probably be considered a single WP:NPOV violation, but even if this is established by consensus, it wouldn't, in itself, be a reason for significant sanctions. However, it relates to other points here and elsewhere in this RfC.

2. X has removed comments to this effect on multiple talk pages, claiming that they are "personal attacks".
3. X has either intentionally, or through incompetence, claimed that editors complaining about his edits were making "personal attacks",
4. X has intentionally, or through incompetence, misinterpreted comments by other editors as to the desired or acceptable state of articles. In some cases, one could make a point toward X's statements about other editors being libelous.

   If someone asks me to redact the last sentence, accurately quoting Misplaced Pages policy, I'll probably do so. I don't see it as problematic, either as to accuracy, nor as a violation of WP:NLT.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Xenophrenic's response to summary by ThinkEnemies

Originally posted under Users who endorse this summary. Moved per guidelines. †TE†Talk 16:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

1. "a venue to disparage his political opposition" -- I had to chuckle at that; do politicians really come to Misplaced Pages to do battle? I'm not one of them. And of course you can't provide substantiation, because no amount of time or patience could turn fallacy into fact. I compromise all the time when there is merit to be found on both sides of a disagreement; however, more often than not, Misplaced Pages policy is one of the "sides", and doesn't allow for compromise in many circumstances. To your specific question: I answer C) None of the above, as that is a nonsensical either/or construct. Yes, I edit to improve the TPm article, and that includes adding original encyclopedic content , improving existing content, and also removing or undoing POV efforts including "whitewashing". You see that as "unsavory behavior"? I'm sure some editors have been disuaded, or if not, topic banned or site banned. I frankly haven't "focused like a laser" anywhere on the article lately; it has severe deficiencies, but lack of comprehensive reliable sources has made significant improvement difficult. It's still basically one big mash-up of news stories. Xenophrenic (talk) 15:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

A comment on this comment:

Xeno seems quite proud of this diff. The second sentence is so excellent I decided to read its supporting refs.

"While not uniformly so, the Tea Party movement tends to be anti-government, anti-spending, anti-Obama, pro-Constitution, anti-tax, pro-patriot ideology, anti-immigration and anti-compromise politics. After the 2012 elections, many local Tea Party factions have shifted their focus to state nullification of the health care law, and protesting the United Nations Agenda 21."

Sourced to four NYT articles, first two do not support this statement at all. Maybe they were intended for the previous sentence. An innocent error, I'm sure.

Source #3 makes this case:

These people are part of a significant undercurrent within the Tea Party movement that has less in common with the Republican Party than with the Patriot movement, a brand of politics historically associated with libertarians, militia groups, anti-immigration advocates and those who argue for the abolition of the Federal Reserve.

Tea Party gatherings are full of people who say they would do away with the Federal Reserve, the federal income tax and countless agencies, not to mention bailouts and stimulus packages. Nor is it unusual to hear calls to eliminate Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. A remarkable number say this despite having recently lost jobs or health coverage. Some of the prescriptions they are debating — secession, tax boycotts, states “nullifying” federal laws, forming citizen militias — are outside the mainstream, too

Tea Party events have become a magnet for other groups and causes — including gun rights activists, anti-tax crusaders, libertarians, militia organizers, the “birthers” who doubt President Obama’s citizenship, Lyndon LaRouche supporters and proponents of the sovereign states movement.

Source #4 rather flippantly says this:

With the U.S. midterm elections five weeks away, the Tea Party movement is already the big winner of 2010. This anti-government, grass-roots Republican offshoot has rattled the party establishment — making the former governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, the party’s most prominent 2012 presidential possibility — and has dominated the debate this campaign season.

The governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty, a non-movement conservative, has embraced the Tea Party’s general anti-immigration posture; he actually endorsed changing the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution to bar citizenship for children born in the United States to undocumented immigrants.

The Tea Party agenda is not well defined, though it is anti-government, anti-spending, anti-immigration and anti-compromise politics. In a United States beset by a 9.6 percent unemployment rate and plenty of anxiety and anger, there is a receptive audience.

So, in Xeno's world finding an author who tried his hardest to make the case because certain groups have sent recruiters to TEA Party events, or because anything resembling a libertarian message must acquire their historic associations -- The TEA Party's agenda is anti-government, anti-spending, anti-Obama, pro-Constitution, anti-tax, pro-patriot ideology, anti-immigration and anti-compromise?

Maybe it was the 4th source that gave Xeno the green light to label the TEA Party as holding all of these highly-controversial positions without attribution?

Xeno believes this proves him to be a considerate and compromising, NPOV editor. Really? †TE†Talk 17:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

A comment on the above comment on my previous comment:

• first two do not support this statement at all ... An innocent error, I'm sure.

Or perhaps you didn't read them. The 1st supports the shift of focus (see Agenda 21); the second supports the anti-Obama and anti-Washington description, and they both support the "not uniformly" description that they aren't 100% anything across the movement.

• Xeno believes this proves him to be a considerate and compromising, NPOV editor. Really?

No, perhaps you didn't read correctly. That diff was provided after my statement that I add original content, as in all the agenda stuff from the various TP organizations. The sentence you are quibbling about is addressed far more thoroughly in other diffs. Is it your intent to turn this into a content discussion page now? Xenophrenic (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

A comment on the above comment on the previous comment about the original comment on the views expressed by ThinkEnemies

Alright, so the UN thing, which isn't controversial and probably not even notable in this case, is sourced. And the TEA Party wanted Obama to lose reelection, so they're anti-Obama. Got it. But that's not especially controversial, either. Now is it? If you wanted me to look past that sentence to see the good stuff you added, I don't know what to tell you. I started from the top and am not the least bit shocked that you would add something like: he Tea Party movement tends to be anti-government, anti-spending, anti-Obama, pro-Constitution, anti-tax, pro-patriot ideology, anti-immigration and anti-compromise politics.

I believe your POV-pushing is one of the reasons we're here. †TE†Talk 20:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

No, we're here because a few editors presently in content disputes with me in Tea Party-related discussions allege I am POV-pushing. If by that you mean "pushing the POV toward the neutral middle", then we may find some agreement. Otherwise, what we have is a situation where information from reliable sources is coming into conflict with the "POVs" of a group of editors, and rather than evaluate the information on it's merits, the group opts to disparage those who present that sourced information in an article as "POV-pushing". Xenophrenic (talk) 20:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Well then, don't mind me. I'm just here to help. †TE†Talk 20:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Judging by the above exchange:

• I truly feel Xeno doesn't understand the error of his ways. I doubt any mentor would want such a project, and if they did, I don't believe they would find a willing student in Xeno. †TE†Talk 13:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)