Misplaced Pages

Talk:Morgellons: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 02:06, 13 June 2013 edit137.111.13.200 (talk) creating a NPOV← Previous edit Revision as of 06:19, 13 June 2013 edit undoDrgao (talk | contribs)1,581 edits reliable medical referencesNext edit →
Line 317: Line 317:


:::::: Drgao, if you wish to succeed here and not get blocked, you'll have to stop violating policy. A very important one is to ]. ] and accusing them of (what they may view as) your own behavior and motives doesn't help matters. Use more neutral language and discuss content, not editors. Remember this cuts both ways and you are not immune from bias, so don't point fingers. We are all imperfect and we all have to work together here, so we must maintain a collaborative environment. If you can't do that, then please find something else to do. If you're willing to give it a try, then you are very welcome here. -- ] (]) 07:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC) :::::: Drgao, if you wish to succeed here and not get blocked, you'll have to stop violating policy. A very important one is to ]. ] and accusing them of (what they may view as) your own behavior and motives doesn't help matters. Use more neutral language and discuss content, not editors. Remember this cuts both ways and you are not immune from bias, so don't point fingers. We are all imperfect and we all have to work together here, so we must maintain a collaborative environment. If you can't do that, then please find something else to do. If you're willing to give it a try, then you are very welcome here. -- ] (]) 07:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

::::::: I always assume good faith, at least at the beginning, until the behavior of an editor provides evidence to the contrary. Good faith is defined as honesty or sincerity of intention. However, it seems to me that editors Dbrodbeck and Scray and others have not displayed honesty. If these editors were honest and sincere, they would not engage in the deceitful practice of quoting Misplaced Pages rules that support their polarized, biased views on what material is to be included in the article, while at the same time, not bringing to my attention Misplaced Pages rules that support the inclusion of the material I have suggested. If they were honest people, they would look at the Misplaced Pages rules in an objective, dispassionate fashion, and try to do what is correct and right by these Misplaced Pages rules. If they were honest people, they would say, yes, there are Misplaced Pages rules that support the inclusion of the material I suggested. That is what an honest, sincere person would do. That is good faith. But no, these editors are very selective about the Misplaced Pages rules they bring forward, and only mention the rules that favor their views. Dbrodbeck and Scray are apparently quite happy to manipulate Misplaced Pages rules for their favor, like clever lawyers.

::::::: I have been looking for some official way to report editors Dbrodbeck and Scray to Misplaced Pages administration, on account of their less than honest behavior. Is there an official way to report such bevahoiur to Misplaced Pages administration? Another question I have is how do you ask for a higher level authority to arbitrate a dispute like the one here. ] clearly sates that "''NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. '''This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it'''''." So when editors here seem to flout this nonnegotiable Misplaced Pages policy, they need to be reported, and arbitration is required. Perhaps you can advise on how this can be achieved, BullRangifer.

::::::: I agree that I am not immune from bias, and I have my own views and options. But the difference is that I also understand that Misplaced Pages is not a platform for people's opinions, including my own, but rather is charged with presenting objective, reliable and unbiased material. Thus because I act in good faith, I would never try to suppress a viewpoint that is contrary to my own view in a Misplaced Pages article, because that would simply be wrong, by Misplaced Pages's policies. Dbrodbeck and Scray are apparently not mature enough to understand that Misplaced Pages must come before their personal view and opinions. ] (]) 06:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:19, 13 June 2013

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Morgellons article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconSkepticism Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMedicine Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconAlternative medicine
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine
It is requested that an image or photograph of Morgellons be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.
Upload


Archive
Archives

Press release about this article

As an FYI, there is a press release from the Charles E Holman Foundation about this article on PR Web. No press coverage yet, but that might follow if reporters think the release is interesting. Matthew (WMF) 16:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

1. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10707772.htm

Maybe.... FYI, prweb.com is not a RS. Anyone can publish any kind of "news" there. The Charles E Holman foundation is a Morgellons support group started by a sufferer. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
After reading this "press release" from the Holman foundation, it's apparent that they haven't a clue as to how Misplaced Pages works. They apparently know nothing about watchlists, and that many editors have thousands of articles on their watchlists. I occasionally edit here, and my watchlist currently has this notice at the top: "You have 7,719 pages on your watchlist (excluding talk pages)." That means I have exactly twice that many pages on my watchlist, and I don't have to be an expert on any of them, and non-experts are allowed to edit articles at Misplaced Pages. Special interest groups like the Holman foundation have a huge COI, and cannot be expected to follow our most sacred policy - WP:NPOV. The constant adding of primary sources violates WP:MEDRS. Their own wording in the press release points huge fingers at the influence of Morgellons sufferers who constantly attack this article, proving that "it is vulnerable to manipulation through editing by anonymous special interest groups" like all the Morgellons special interest groups and sufferers. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:08, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
In addition to their lack of understanding of how Misplaced Pages works, the press release is pretty blatantly misleading - they make it seem like Yobol is the only user reverting the addition of dubiously sourced content, when in fact there have been six people making these edits in addition to Yobol in just the past week. And of course the reason we had to make these edits was that the article was subject to multiple edits by now-blocked POV-pushing socks who have no understanding of WP:MEDRS or WP:NPOV. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 02:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
It really did read like an attack piece on Yobol and certainly was not written in the tone or style of a statement from a supposed research/philanthropic foundation. But the bottom line is that this article likely affects their bottom line and charity, after all, is a business these days. Perhaps we should consider protecting the page with pending changes? These new primary studies are likely to attract users with an agenda, and if the established research is correct that Morgellons is a delusional condition we have to keep in mind that we are literally dealing with people suffering a massive delusion. Sædon 02:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
👍 Like -- Brangifer (talk) 04:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

" Misplaced Pages... is vulnerable to manipulation through editing by anonymous special interest groups. "

— PRWeb
Oh, the irony. Axl ¤ 21:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Some Of This Is Way Wrong

I've read and reread this article about Morgellons, and I've noticed some (And I'm being modest here; more than just 'some') of these sections are wrong. Did some half-asleep person just glance off a random page or blog and start copying down everything they've heard? This is not a reliable page, and it's actually pretty frustrating that victims of this disease would be mistreated and labeled insane, and the information posted here totally unilateral with whatever the CDC and other government groups say. Does no one here look up other sites and documentaries/etc. to check the credibility of these things? Or are we so simple-minded enough to just go with the first ludicrous thing we hear from any one group that spends less time on crucial matters such as this and more time worrying about their next paycheck and appearance?

Also, one last note, I've noticed that the only information one this page is, again, the one-sided opinion of a group of people who probably don't even know what Morgellons are. I've seen other controversial pages on Misplaced Pages, and they at LEAST give a little section to (What can be said as the) 'Other side of the story'. Where are the other official reports of Morgellons given by scientists and victims of this disease? Why isn't there a section dedicated to what they've said and experienced? Seeing this, I had added a small section at the very end, out of everyone's way, just to say that the information here is not 100% accurate, and encourage the reader(s) to visit other sites for themselves, if they so wished. But that was taken off too, because obviously either someone didn't want to lose the credibility of their wasted work, or they are brain-washed and simple-minded themselves and do not wish to hear about any other causes or theories, which, by the way, is not 'alien nano-technology'. Someone put that in parentheses and that is an incorrect statement, and should be removed. I actually tried to remove it, but again, some simple-minded idiot got the idea that any changes to his or his buddies' work is 'heresy' and should be destroyed upon first contact.

I Want The Truth Restored (talk) 03:00, 16 May 2013 (UTC) I_Want_The_Truth_Restored

What, specifically, is wrong with the article? What sections are factually incorrect? What references should be classed as unreliable? And more importantly, what verifiable reliable sources representing the scientific consensus would you recommend be included? We cannot fix the article without this kind of specific information. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi IWTTR, first, I understand you're frustrated and a bit angry, and that is understandable. However, you're not going to increase the chances of getting the kinds of changes you'd like to see in the article by insulting the people you're going to have to work with. Besides, personal attacks are not allowed on Misplaced Pages, and will only probably end up with you having your ability to edit curtailed.

Second, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and we don't have editorial or commentary like you added in our articles - that's the main reason it was removed. If there are issues we work them out on the Talk page, like we're doing here.

To expand on what TechBear said: Most importantly, if you'd like to see new content in the article, the first thing you'll need to bring are sources - good, high-quality, well-respected sources, preferably statements from medical organizations or review articles published in good-quality medical journals. (See WP:MEDRS for a complete description of what we're looking for in sourcing biomedical information.) Can you help out by identifying good sources we can use? Thanks... Zad68 03:15, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Haha, I see my mistakes. Actually, this is my first edit, so sorry for messing up a bit. And as for 'personal attack', I do agree that is was out of line, and I am also sorry for that. I will get that 'hard proof' evidence, and do this correctly. Sorry about all of this informality. But one question, or maybe two: First, if Morgellons (As stated here) is really just some Delusional parasitosis, then why are there paragraphs about self-treatment and such stating you take de-worming medicine and the like? If there are fibers or 'bugs' there and you're just a loon, then why take the medicine appropriate for getting rid of them? And second, why does nobody draw up any conclusions about why everyone with Morgellons rejects this labeling and states that 'they're not being taken seriously'? Can you answer that? Or are you just searching for the bogus crap the CDC puts out to suppress and control all their received hatemail? Hm? So please, if you don't want to do any thorough searching into everything that's been put down, as well as everything that hasn't been, why not just make a small section near the end, one with a few sentences of other theories put out by once well respected scientists that have had their lives ruined by either acquiring this disease or trying to do more research about it? Or at the very least some quotes or paraphrases from ACTUAL PEOPLE WITH THE DISEASE! And how can you be so 'official' and 'well respected' if you won't even allow anything from these actual patients? Not just this article, but the CDC or any other health organization as well? That's all I wish to say. And for the record, just to prove one thing: The perpetrators are not beings from outer space. They live right here on this planet. This is not the first time that numbered pieces of tissue have been found by sufferers of this diabolical disease.

"An interviewer from MSNBC chose to take selected excerpts from a phone conversation with me. She manipulated my words in a newspaper article to make me sound as though I believed that extraterrestrials were to blame for this disease. Not true.... I was pointedly asked at the very beginning of this interview if I thought that aliens had caused this disease. I did not bring up the subject. It was rather a trick question. My answer was that it was possible that materials may have been taken from the space shuttle as a pathogen but I did not say it was probable nor do I think it is the case. Look around my site. It has been here for many years and you will not find mention of aliens being the cause of this disease."

http://morgellonsexposed.com/ I Want The Truth Restored (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Crap, I did it again. Yes, I understand this is a place for formal medical posts and not rants or things like that. I'm sorry, once again. And if you're thinking of blocking me, don't bother. I'm done. I can't win, not yet. So why try? This is almost as bad as politics, heh heh. Well, one last piece of advice: Don't believe the first thing you read, and NEVER, EVER stop looking for the truth. Remember that. Well, goodbye, so long, and I will perhaps never speak with you again~ I Want The Truth Restored (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

New Evidence supporting infectious etiology

Please note that exclusion of a source on the basis of minority opinion is not a legitimate argument on wikipedia because the inclusion of minority point of view is essential to maintain neutrality and maintaining neutrality is supported and considered to be a priority by wikipedia policy. The primary source policy should not be applied to exclude a source when the source is from a peer-reviewed medical journal (particularly if it is PubMed indexed) as the Misplaced Pages policy states that primary sources can be included when they are reliably published, and the inclusion of peer-reviewed journal articles follows the letter and spirit of this policy. Up-to-date primary sources are considered appropriate sources for actively researched areas; and policy needs to be relaxed in such circumstances where little progress is being made and few reviews are published. If primary sources are not permitted for inclusion then the CDC and Mayo Clinic studies should be deleted on the same grounds. Please note that the magazine interviews and the like should not be included as they are not considered by Misplaced Pages to be high quality sources – they are not even published studies – and they do not meet the criteria for reliable medical references. The fact that these are included when peer-reviewed sources are deleted shows editorial bias. Before editing and adding new evidence – peer-reviewed and Pub Med indexed, and listed below – that suggests Morgellons has an infectious etiology, I would like to know if Yobol, Mast Cell or any other users intend to undo the edits that include content from the references listed below, and if so on what justifiable grounds? To maintain neutrality, editors should not reject a source due to personal objections to the study’s conclusions. <www.dovepress.com/filament-formation-association-with-spirochete-infection-a-comparative-peer-reviewed-article-CCID><www.dovepress.com/characterization-and-evolution-of-dermal-filaments-from-patients-with--peer-reviewed-article-CCID><http://f1000research.com/articles/2-25/v1> Erythema (talk) 19:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)erythema

First, you may wish to read WP:FRINGE. It is very well established Misplaced Pages policy that neutrality does not mean giving equal weight to theories or ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field. In this case, the overwhelming consensus of medical science is that Morgellons has no basis in objective reality.
Second, regarding the links you provided: Both Dove Medical Press and F1000 are for-profit open source journals, with very little quality control. Anyone with a paper to publish can have it "reviewed" and published online as soon as their check clears; as such, they should be treated with careful attention when determining their reliability. That the papers are indexed with PubMed is irrelevant, as PubMed is merely a database of published articles and makes absolutely no claim as to the articles' quality or reliability. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You may wish to revisit WP:FRINGE . It states that “reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner” and “material likely to be challenged needs a reliable source”. Peer-reviewed journal articles certainly qualify as such. Peer-reviewed articles are evaluated by known experts in a particular field of study before the article is published. This assures that an article maintains a high standard of quality, accuracy, and academic integrity. Before attacking the F1000 perhaps you should be aware that – according to Misplaced Pages – the Faculty members include 7 Nobel Prize winners, 81 Fellows of the Royal Society, 12 Lasker Award winners, 146 members of the National Academy of Science and 104 members of the Institute of Medicine. The F1000, citing a paper on Morgellons written by some of the authors of the papers you are attacking, indicated that the paper was in the top 2% of published articles in the field of dermatology. Furthermore, F1000 Research does open peer-review, allowing for transparent peer-review. I am quite sure that esteemed researchers such as, Judith Miklossy MD, PhD, DSc, who is Board certified in Neurology, Psychiatry, Psychotherapy and Neuropathology; John English, MB, BS, FRCP, a dermatologist at University of Nottingham, UK; or Bernhard Zelger, department of Dermatology, Medical University of Innsbruck, Austria, would appreciate the implication that their approval was bought. Dove Press has guidelines for peer-review and reviewers are advised to provide an objective critical evaluation, and they must be experts on the topic they are reviewing. I already established that Misplaced Pages policy allows primary sources that are reliably published, especially on a topic like Morgellons where little progress is being made and there are few published review articles. If you take a look at the Morgellons page, as it is now, there are many sources that do not meet the criteria for reliable medical resources according to Misplaced Pages policy. In regards to Pub Med you may want to visit WP:MEDRES as Pub Med is listed there as a useful resource for writing medically related articles and that WP:MEDRES is intended to complement WP:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles). Talk page guidelines suggest that Misplaced Pages users "be positive and should not criticize, pick apart, or vent on the current status of an article or its subject". You are bringing your personal POV about Dove Press into this discussion. Erythema (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)erythema

libel -- TechBear, please note that your statements about F1000 Research and Dove Press are libelous and Misplaced Pages has a strong policy against the inclusion of libelous material. Erythema (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)erythema

Preventing An Edit War

The following was copied here from my user talk page:

Stop icon

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Yobol (talk) 17:43, 31 May 2013 (UTC)


Presumably this threat of an edit war account blocking also applies to the editors here that have undone my edits, so these people need to watch out also.
I feel that the reference to the keratin and collagen composition of fibers must be included in article, and since my edit is in compliance with WP:MEDRS, there is no reason why this edit should not be included. Please do not try to suppress important information.

References

  1. Middelveen MJ, Mayne PJ, Kahn DG, Stricker RB (2013). "Characterization and evolution of dermal filaments from patients with Morgellons disease". Clin Cosmet Investig Dermatol. 6: 1–21. doi:10.2147/CCID.S39017. PMC 3544355. PMID 23326202.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
So I suggest we discuss here how this information is to included in the article.
By the way Yobol, is there any truth in the accusation that you are not one person, but a team of individuals? (Personal attack removed) Any comments? Just curious. Drgao (talk) 18:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Repeating these ridiculous allegations against an editor is a rather clear breach of WP:AGF. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
That's not an article, Drgao, it's a press release from an advocacy group, and it does nothing to negate the 3RR warning that Yobol left you. If you really want to prevent an edit war, discuss your proposed inclusions here before continuing to add them back to the article. Consensus now is that your text should not be included based on the section just above this one. Dawn Bard (talk) 18:12, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Drgao, as noted in the edit summaries, plus from the discussion above, the source you're proposing to use isn't acceptable per WP:MEDRS as 1) the journal is not MEDLINE-indexed, and 2) Dove is a publisher of dubious quality. Do you have a WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary source to support the content you are proposing? Zad68 18:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm commenting here to underscore that consensus is against inclusion of content based on a low-quality primary source (discussed in the section above) that runs counter to secondary sources of substantial weight. If we did what you suggest, it would be a clear violation of WP:MEDRS and WP:UNDUE. By the way - the edit war has been going on for 24 hours; my hope is that this discussion ends it. -- Scray (talk) 18:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
A secondary source is not needed, provided the primary source is not set up to contradict a secondary source in the article. WP:MEDRS says "Individual primary sources should not be cited or juxtaposed so as to debunk or contradict the conclusions of reliable secondary sources" Thus as long as you don't juxtapose the primary source in a contradictory manner, you can use it. If you are concerned about due weight issues WP:UNDUE, then my text can be included in a less prominent part of the article. I am discussing this in order to accommodate your issues and requirements, and I hope you will be equally courteous to accommodate my requirement, which is to include this reference at some point in the article, even if in a non-prominent location. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be about suppressing knowledge that does not line up with the prevailing view.
The study I quoted is on PubMed, so presumably that means it is MEDLINE indexed. Do you have any official Misplaced Pages statement saying that Dove is a publisher of dubious quality, and therefore cannot be included in Misplaced Pages articles? Drgao (talk) 19:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
You should also go read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and then move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Drgao, sorry, no, the article you're bringing is PMID 23326202, and this parameter list clearly states at the top "STAT- PubMed-not-MEDLINE". The journal is Clinical, cosmetic and investigational dermatology, the library record for the journal is here, which also states "Current Indexing Status: Not currently indexed for MEDLINE" and current consensus among Misplaced Pages medical editors is that if the journal is not MEDLINE indexed, it's dubious. Also, the article content proposed based on this journal is an exceptional claim, see WP:EXCEPTIONAL - to include it in the article, you'd need to bring multiple high-quality secondary sources, and this journal article doesn't meet that standard.

It may be true that Morgellons is actually some sort of infectious disease based on fibers, but until the best-quality reliable sources start saying that, the Misplaced Pages article won't either. Zad68 19:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

As a point of fact: the study I quoted is not saying that the fibers are infectious, but rather that they are produced as a result of human keratinocyte and fibroblast cells in the skin being activated to manufacture the proteins keratin and collagen, which then create the fibers (the normal function of these cells is to synthesis such keratin and collagen proteins). The study found evidence of a spirochete infection in the skin of Morgellons patients, and the implication is that this infection may have triggered the keratinocyte and fibroblast cells to produce keratin and collagen proteins. So according to this study, the fibers are likely created as a result of an infection, but the fiber are not themselves an infectious agent.
Your arguments against inclusion of this information are changing all the time, and now you are saying that it is an exceptional claim WP:EXCEPTIONAL. However, the entire debate surrounding Morgellons disease has been focused on whether it is a delusional condition, or an infectious disease. Therefore, rather than being an exceptional claim, this infectious disease angle is very much a mainstream concept. Indeed, the research performed at Kaiser Permanente that you refer to in this article was itself focused on searching for an infectious agent. Thus you cannot say that the information I would like to include is an exceptional view; the infectious view is one of the mainstream views.
Given that much of the thrust of the research into Morgellons has been the search for an infectious agent, it is not clear to my why you would not want to include this new lead in the search for such an agent, even if just as a brief mention. You are trying to present a canonical view of Morgellons, but that canon is false, because understanding of this disease is in its infancy, and so presenting a single canonical view as if it is the cut and dried truth of Morgellons incorrectly represents the situation. Drgao (talk) 20:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
You don't seem to be listening to what multiple people have already told you in different ways: the encyclopedia has no duty to the cutting-edge concept; canon (mainstream view) is what we're charged with representing. Thus, citing WP:EXCEPTIONAL (in reference to this new study) was entirely consistent with citing WP:MEDRS (with regard to how we've identified mainstream views). It's absolutely true that many studies have looked for an infectious etiology, biological fibres, etc - and haven't found them. That this one has found such evidence (when others commonly cited in secondary sources have not) makes this study exceptional; furthermore, its appearance in a non-mainstream journal further degrades confidence in the reproducibility of the result. Unless we cover some new ground soon, I think we may be done trying to convince you. -- Scray (talk) 22:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Scray, I dispute the grounds on which you are stating that the Middelveen et al study is exceptional.
How many studies have you come across that have performed a thorough examination of the material composition of the fibers?
And out of these, how many of these studies have demonstrated (not assumed) that the fibers are of exogenous origin (ie, not produced in the body, and made from clothing fibers or similar), and how many of these studies have demonstrated that the fibers are of endogenous origin (produced within the body)?
This Middelveen et al study used various techniques including electron microscopy to examine the fibers, and demonstrated they were of biological origin, specifically, made from keratin and collagen, which are proteins made in the human body, therefore indicating the fibers are of endogenous origin.
If you are claiming exceptionality, only by tallying up the number of studies that demonstrated an exogenous origin for the fibers, and also tallying up the number of studies that demonstrated an endogenous origin, and then comparing numbers, can we conclude that this Middelveen et al study is exceptional.
And Scray, since YOU are claiming that Middelveen et al study is exceptional, I presume you must have tallied up all the relevant studies on the material composition of the fibers. Thus could you kinldy post the links to the exogenous origin and endogenous origin studies you have tallied, so that we can all see for ourselves.
YOU have said Middelveen et al study is exceptional, so please provide the proper evidence for your statement.
If you cannot provide evidence of exceptionality, then we can assume that the Middelveen et al study is NOT exceptional, and so can be included in the article. Drgao (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
It is the claim that is exceptional, not the study, read the link provided please. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
No, you are wrong Dbrodbeck. WP:EXCEPTIONAL says exceptional claims are "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources". The idea that the fibers are of endogenous origin (from within the body) is not surprising as this has been discussed ad nauseam, and is a completely mainstream idea, being found in all the literature. Ergo, you're wrong.
I'd really appreciate a bit more clarity of thought in the replies you provide here. You are wasting my time providing these logically flawed, ill-thought out answers. Drgao (talk) 21:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate you laying off the personal attacks. My thoughts are crystal clear. As are, it seems everyone else's. It could be you are right and we are all wrong, but you know what? A better conclusion is we understand policies and you do not. Go read WP:CONSENSUS again. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
You are evading the issue at hand, namely that the demonstration the fibers are of endogenous origin is certainly not a surprising one, and is completely mainstream. So I have demolished your argument that inclusion of Middelveen et al in the article is against WP:EXCEPTIONAL.
Do you have any other arguments to offer, or do you finally give in, and concede? Drgao (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
We don't 'give in' around here, and you have demolished nothing. This is a collaborative project that operates using consensus. Consensus is against you. Move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
BTW Zad68, there is absolutely nothing in WP policy including WP:MEDRS that indicates a source must be MEDLINE indexed. Erythema (talk) 02:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC) ErythemaErythema (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Why does Erythema have to make edits outside this topic? I may start to make edits elsewhere. I am a new user. This is an interesting topic and it is easy to get a grasp at all the relevant medical literature for this topic as the topic is not a large one. I am not going to plunge in and edit lots of different medical sites. I prefer to start small. I have not even made any changes to the actual Morgellons article, so I can't see why you are objecting to my joining this talk page and my contributions. I would like to point out the the CDC study does not really contradict the keratin or collagen content evidence. If you read the paper it says that 83% of non-biopsy material was composed of protein. Both collagen and keratin are proteins. It then goes on to say that this is consistent with cellulose cotton fibers -- which does not make any sense because cotton and cellulose are carbohydrates. The references that the current Morgellons article has on fiber composition are not suitable medical references according to WP policy. For example the evidence presented from interviews with Dr Wymore is not even published in a medical journal -- much less peer-reviewed. Erythema (talk) 07:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)Erythema

You need to remove the phrase "whereas in reality no such parasites are present"

In the intro sentence to this article, namely:

Morgellons (also called Morgellons disease or Morgellons syndrome) is a name given to a condition in 2002 by Mary Leitao, where sufferers have the delusional belief that they are infested with parasites, whereas in reality no such parasites are present,

you need to remove the phrase in bold.

This is a point of science: anyone that knows about infectious disease research is fully aware that you cannot prove the absence of an unknown micro-organism. If a study does not find a micro-organism present, that does NOT provide proof that there is no micro-organism. Thus the above phrase extrapolates beyond what is known scientifically.

If you are unsure of this, consult with some infectious disease experts. They will tell you that micro-organisms are extremely difficult to detect, especially new ones, so no matter how many studies do not find a micro-organism in a given disease, this is NOT proof that no micro-organism is present. Drgao (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

The current state of knowledge is that there are no parasites. You really have to learn how it works around here, read the links people have shown you, or move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:55, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
That is incorrect. The current state of knowledge cannot comment on whether there are parasites or other microbes or not. The phrase in bold goes beyond current knowledge, and is a fabrication. Drgao (talk) 22:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
You might want to look at reference 16. And really stop beating the WP:DEADHORSE. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
This is a point of science and logic (you do know about science and logic, I take it): you cannot prove a negative. Therefore what you have said in the article is logically incorrect. No reference you provide can resurrect this; it is a fundamental logical error that needs to be expunged. Drgao (talk) 23:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I also cannot prove there aren't little green men forcing me to edit wikipedia, but I am relatively sure there aren't. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
That is a silly point. If you cannot take this issue seriously, then pass it over to someone less flippant. Perhaps others here with a better understanding of logic will appreciate that the phrase is bold is a non sequitur. The phrase in bold may be what people here think is probably true, but it is not supported by fact or any studies, so it does not belong in Misplaced Pages. Drgao (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
"...it is not supported by fact or any studies..."? Sounds like you have not looked at the references already provided to you. Misplaced Pages must represent reliable sources, even if we do not agree with them. -- Scray (talk) 00:49, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Scray, if you don't have sufficient grasp of the finer points of logic (as appears to be the case), then go find a friend who does, and ask their advice. It is not possible to prove the absence of an unknown micro-organism, no matter what the study. All you can correctly say is that such-and-such a study did not find any micro-organisms. So you can correctly say that the CDC-funded study did not find any micro-organisms, but you CANNOT say the CDC study proved there are no micro-organisms in Morgellons patients. That would be a false statement.
If you don't have sufficient understanding of this sort of logic, you should not really be editing a scientific article, because you will end up doing a bad job. Drgao (talk) 02:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Your personal attacks on this page have gone far enough. By WP policy, we must aim any negative comments toward edits, not the editor. -- Scray (talk) 03:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
It's not an attack, it's an observation: if you don't possess sufficient ability to follow logic, you are going to make a hash of the issue at hand. At present we have a situation in which there is a blatantly unfounded statement in the first sentence of the article. That should be of serious concern. Yes, my tongue has been sharp in expressing this point to you, but your inability to appreciate this point unfortunately called for it.
If you properly consider the issue I have raised — and if necessary, speak to any acquaintances you have who are more familiar with logic — then perhaps we can proceed in a more friendly tone, which will be better for everyone.
Any mention in this article of the CDC proving that there are no disease-causing micro-organisms in Morgellons patients, or words to that effect, must be removed, or else amended to say that the CDC did not find any micro-organisms in Morgellons patients. The latter statement is acceptable and correct; whereas the former is false. Drgao (talk) 04:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Could you look for just one instance of the word "prove" or "proving" (your quotes/emphasis) in the article currently? I think you'll then realize there are none. I'm done with you. -- Scray (talk) 05:21, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
When you say, as you erroneously do, in the article that "whereas in reality no such parasites are present", you clearly are telling the reader "that in truth, no parasites are present", as if it is a proven fact. But this is not a proven fact, as you don't know this is true. Drgao (talk) 14:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Scray you are wrong it's not that bad to be wrong but ignoring what the guy is saying and pointing out unrelated facts is just silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.13.53.93 (talk) 22:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Psychiatric conditions involving delusional infestations don't involve actual infestation, by definition. The definition of a delusion pretty much explains why this is so. In fact the argument that you can't "prove" a negative (that there are no parasites) is an important dimension of delusion. It is precisely the unfalsifiability of this belief which protects the delusion from ever being disproved in the mind of the sufferer. Essentially it holds the delusional belief outside of the domain of science, where reality can't undermine it. If any physician were likely to even label anyone as having "morgellons" they would have to provide evidence that they screened for parasites and did not find any.137.111.13.200 (talk) 02:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments from an uninvolved editor. First of all I want to remark that after reading comments Drgao tone crosses the personal attack line way too often. Additionally, regarding his comments about proving a negative, it is not a valid reasoning, since no negative can ever be proven but we can still say with quite some certainty that the earth is round (even if theoretically all could be an illusion). WP is not about thruth but about consensus in sources and scientific consensus here is that Morgellons does not exist.

Now: I do agree Drgao that the inital lines of the lead are misleading, since it can be understood that Leitao proposed that patients have a delusional belief, while it is the opposite case (she does believe in it). Moreover, the validity of the condition seems to be questioned as proposed by Leitao. It does sound similar to an article I have worked with (See CCSVI), in which a condition was proposed but has not been really accepted. This should be explicited in the lead

I would change the lead to something like: Morgellons (also called Morgellons disease or Morgellons syndrome) is a condition proposed in 2002 by Mary Leitao in which sufferes had XXX as symtoms. While medical consensus is that patients suffer from delusions Leitao and some patient associations have proposed that it is caused by parasites.

I believe a similar wording would make clearer the gap between medical consensus and the history of the term. --Garrondo (talk) 07:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not the only one here that makes personal comments. I have been told three times already to "move on" by the rather arrogant Dbrodbeck. No editor should tell another to "move on" or "go away", since this is not only an extremely rude comment to direct to an editor, but worse still, Dbrodbeck's comments, thrice made on this page, suggest that he is implying "we don't like strangers around here, and we certainly are aren't going to accommodate them". Dbrodbeck is making the cardinal sin in Misplaced Pages: thinking he owns the article. Drgao (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate you removing those personal attacks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:00, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, I have struck them. Drgao (talk) 06:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Getting away from comments about editors and back to the article content: Dbrodbeck's comments are based in Misplaced Pages content policy and supported by good-quality sources, and they are also in line with consensus regarding this article. Unless a much more authoritative source can be brought to support the proposed content addition, there isn't a good basis to include it in the article at this time. Zad68 14:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Well regarding sources: the CDC study that you quote in this article does not appear to be a secondary source. Since a big issue was made above in this discussion page of the need for "multiple high-quality secondary sources" before inclusion in this article can be considered, why then have you included this non-secondary source CDC study? You set rules that you want me follow, but then you go ahead an break these same rules. You are not following your own standards here. Drgao (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I made a specific proposal than nobody has commented: I would change the lead to something like: Morgellons (also called Morgellons disease or Morgellons syndrome) is a condition proposed in 2002 by Mary Leitao in which sufferes had XXX as symtoms. While medical consensus is that patients suffer from delusions Leitao and some patient associations have proposed that it is caused by parasites.--Garrondo (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
My fear there is that we are giving weight to the idea that there are parasites. The direction you suggest is ok though I think. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:00, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I do not plan to edit the article, but just for curiosity: In reliable sources about Morgellons is common that history section indicating the origin of the term? Such description has a lot of detail explaning on how relevant the term has been for the public? From my experience in the CCSVI article this may indicate that the concept has had more "resonance" in the media and patients culture than in scientific circules.--Garrondo (talk) 19:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm against this change of wording, it gives weight to the 'patients' diagnosis, which really can't be valid considering the fact they're suffering from psychosis. --Judgeking (talk) 20:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Regarding Dbrodbeck's concerns about giving weight to the idea that there are parasites. I share that concern, and probably there are no parasites in the skin of Morgellons patients.
However, the trouble with the current introductory paragraph to this article is that it focusses on the delusional parasitosis hypothesis for Morgellons, and this delusional parasitosis hypothesis also tends to reject the idea that the fibers and the skin lesions are real (suggesting instead that the lesions are self-inflicted, and the fibers are just from clothes). I think this is unfair, as the intro should also mention the competing view, which is that the fibers and the skin lesions are real and caused by the disease, even if there are no parasites.
What confuses the situation is that some Morgellons patients think that the fibers themselves are the parasites. However, the study I thought would add value to this article found that the fibers were in fact made of human keratin and collagen. This study thus tends to demonstrate that the fibers are real, but are NOT parasites or any form of micro-organism.
The other issue is that although there may be no parasites in Morgellons, conceivably other types of infectious micro-organism might be present, and may be the cause of the disease. The study I mentioned found some evidence of spirochete bacteria in the skin of Morgellons patients, and Morgellons has been previously linked to Lyme, a spirochetal disease. So Morgellons patients may be incorrect about being infested with parasites, but they may conceivably be right about being infected with some other micro-organism like spirochete bacteria. The statement currently in the article: "whereas in reality no such parasites are present" is misleading, because it may make the reader think that it has been proven that there are no infectious micro-organism at all in Morgellons, but in fact the studies show that there is a link to Lyme / spirochete bacteria. Drgao (talk) 06:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Drgao, I don't have a response to your content questions yet, but I just needed to say this was an excellent and productive Talk-page comment. It was focused only on content and made thoughtful use of specific sources, thanks for this! I need to think about what you wrote now... Zad68 13:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


From the Disclosure section in that paper- "MJM, PJM, and RBS serve without compensation on the scientific advisory panel of the Charles E Holman Foundation". The initials are the authors. I imagine people might find it interesting to google that foundation.137.111.13.200 (talk) 07:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

And a recent press release addresses this page with complaints about a specific user. Apparently recent research is not getting traction on this page, and the author of the linked article wants attention drawn to this. Circumstantially, no doubt, the contact given for the foundation is none other than the lead author of the research paper- http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2013/5/prweb10707772.htm. If anyone is interested, you can support the foundation by buying t-shirts! It is partially how that research article was funded, some might notice. I'm sure there are no conflicts of interests here at all.137.111.13.200 (talk) 07:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

The authors' disclosure statements have no relevance in determining their suitability as medical references. Furthermore, I agree with Drgao about the parasite statement. Evidence published in reputable peer-reviewed journal articles have confirmed the presence of spirochetes -- this represents a significant minority POV. The fact that the CDC did not find these organisms is not relevant. It just means that they used methodology that was not sensitive enough to detect those particular organisms. This is often the case in medical science. For example Helicobacter pylori was not associated with stomach ulcers, but now we know that this organism is involved. Medical knowledge evolves. New knowledge deserves to be cited. Erythema (talk) 07:28, 12 June 2013 (UTC)Erythema
I would also like to point out that the CDC study did find folliculitis in the skin of patients. Something had to cause the inflammation so the evidence in this paper does not indicate that no pathogens were present. It only means that none were detected in the study. The CDC study did find that patients had cognitive disabilities that could not be explained and that this differed statistically from the general population. If you are using the CDC study as a reference then please read it thoroughly. Erythema (talk) 07:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)Erythema

Removed Some Primary References Form the Article

Since as discussed above, you said to me that primary sources are not appropriate for this article, I have removed the following primary sources from the article:

Schulte

Nature — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drgao (talkcontribs) 14:41, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

  1. Schulte, Brigid (January 20, 2008). "Figments of the Imagination?". Washington Post Magazine. pp. W10. Retrieved 2008-06-09.
  2. Marris E (2006). "Mysterious 'Morgellons disease' prompts US investigation". Nat. Med. 12 (9): 982. doi:10.1038/nm0906-982a. PMID 16960559. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
You have no idea what you're talking about. Schulte is a superb secondary source, as is the nature article. Perhaps you should read WP:PRIMARY? Sailsbystars (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Can you point me to the Misplaced Pages guidelines page which clearly states that a primary source from Nature is fine, but a primary source from Dove press is not. If I have a source, how can I officially check whether it is acceptable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages or not? Drgao (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, saying "You have no idea what you're talking about" is also a personal remark, similar to the personal remarks I made which were removed. So I suggest that you remove this remark. Drgao (talk) 15:41, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:RS, WP:SPS. I struck that bit of my comment, but it's not clear you understand the difference between a primary and secondary source and there's only so many ways of saying it. The Washington Post is one of the most obvious examples of a reliable secondary source appropriate to wikipedia. Sailsbystars (talk) 15:45, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I fully understand the difference between literature review secondary sources, and primary sources. What I would like to know is official Misplaced Pages policy you are referring to when you say that a primary source from Nature is fine for inclusion, but a primary source from Dove press is not. Drgao (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
WaPo is describing the cultural history of the disease, for which it is an appropriate source, not the nature of the medical condition, for which WP:MEDRS would apply. The nature article appears to be a more popularly oriented review article in one of the world's most preeminent medical journals. Dovepress is an obscure outfit where it's not clear that they actually are a reliable source in general, much less a medical reliable source. Sailsbystars (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Sailsbystars. I am going to revert the changes, and please do not revert without consensus, thanks Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I would like to point out to Sailbystars that the Washington Post is not what WP means by a reliable secondary medical reference. It is popular press. It is not a general or systematic review published in a peer-reviewed journal, nor is it from a medical text book, etc. Erythema (talk) 07:17, 12 June 2013 (UTC)Erythema

Why Did Sailsbystars Revert My Edit In Which I Added Two "Citation needed" Tags?

I added the citation need tag at the end of the follwing two sentences in the article:

"In addition, long-term antibiotic use can have serious side effects"

"Persons with Morgellons symptoms may turn to alternative remedies described on web sites and discussion groups"

Why was my edit reverted, and these citation need tags removed? Drgao (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I was trying to avoid removing those, but unfortunately, due to the nature of the edits and editting software, it was very difficult for me to selectively undo your edits. At least one of the citation neededs looked like it might be useful. Sailsbystars (talk) 15:41, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

creating a NPOV

The Morgellons page is a violation of Misplaced Pages’s sacred NPOV policy to “represent fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources. By Misplaced Pages’s own rules, no one has been able to provide justification for not adding the evidence published in peer-reviewed medical journals that suggests that Morgellons is infectious in etiology to the Morgellons article’s content. If no one can provide justification then this evidence should now be included to the content of this article. This content is essential to achieve an NPOV. Please revisit the Morgellons article and explain how this is a non-biased piece of work. If you can demonstrate evidence of editorial objectivity, I would really like to see it. I have asked for reasonable justification as to why new evidence cannot be added to the article content and so far have not been provided with a defensible argument. Please note the following:

1) According to WP:MEDRES ideal medical sources should be systematic reviews published in reputable journals or in professional text books. There are no available systematic review articles on Morgellons. It is a medical topic where little progress has been made and it is an area that is undergoing active research, and thus current thought is evolving. WP:MEDRES states that in such situations original research papers can be cited providing that only the conclusions of the source are cited. It also states that significant-minority views are welcome in Misplaced Pages if presented in the context of their acceptance by experts in the field. The view that Morgellons is infectious rather than delusional is a significant-minority view. This POV accounts for approximately 17% of the published articles on Morgellons that are published in reputable medical journals. The fact that studies presenting data that supports this POV are able to pass peer-review is proof that it is has gained mainstream acceptance by acknowledged medical authorities. This is not a “fringe” or extreme viewpoint. To maintain a NPOV it should be presented in Misplaced Pages. To not do so shows editorial bias. 2) The sources cited in the Misplaced Pages Morgellons page as it stands now are mostly lower-quality sources according to Misplaced Pages rules. According to WP:MEDRES the popular press is not a reliable source of scientific and medical information. Newspaper articles and the like are considered low quality sources. The majority of references used in the article are popular press (over 50%), including magazine and newspaper articles, and TV interviews. These are not reliable medical references. The fact that articles published by Popular Mechanics and the like have been considered as acceptable medical references for the Morgellons page while articles published in peer-reviewed medical journals (that are contrary to the POV supported by the dominating editors) is a prime example of editorial bias and cherry picking that abounds in the Morgellons article as it now stands. 3) Case reports and non-evidence such as anecdotes are considered low quality evidence. Those references in the Morgellons article that are not popular press references and that are actually published in medical journals are predominantly opinion pieces that are based on anecdotal evidence and case studies. These are low-quality evidence. Of the few that are not opinion articles and case studies there 3 are original research studies. All three represent 1 POV – the delusional hypothesis – for Morgellons while the other POV found in medical literature – the infectious hypothesis – is ignored and not allowed. It shows editorial bias to include original research that supports only one POV when there is more than 1 accepted POV published in reliable peer-reviewed medical journals. One of the references that is from a peer-reviewed journal is from American Entomologist. I would like to point out that perhaps F1000 Research and Clinical Cosmetic and Investigational Dermatology are more reliable journals for medical information than a journal specializing in Entomology. 4) The lack of NPOV is also apparent in the Morgellons talk and history pages where it is public record that individual words that have shown an attempt at neutrality are systematically eliminated and replaced with stronger words that reflect the POV that the active, dominating editors support. The unwillingness to accept published medical evidence from another POV amounts to cyber bullying if it cannot be reasonably and objectively justified. Please note I am not suggesting to remove the content that supports the delusional hypothesis, I am only asking that this article better reflect WP's NPOV -- to represent all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources. That lack of neutrality that prevails in this article is suggestive of special interests and agenda editing, so let's do our duty to WP reader and give them something better. Prove me wrong and allow this article to evolve into something that resembles neutrality. Erythema (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)Erthyema

Briefly (much of this has been discussed numerous times on this page): (1) broad scientific consensus, reflected accurately in this article based on reliable sources, is that the condition referred to as "Morgellons" is a form of delusional parasitosis and this article therefore respects WP's NPOV directive; (2 & 3) it's possible that the article contains some sources that should be removed or improved - we should discuss those specifically, but more generally there are different reliable sources for different things. For example, the general consensus I've just mentioned, and supported by reliable secondary sources, is supported by a reference to American Entomologist and therefore this does not violate WP:MEDRS - in contrast, refuting a highly-reliable secondary source with primary sources would violate WP:MEDRS.
As far as improving the article, could you make a succinct proposal for a specific change supported by WP:MEDRS-compliant publications? It's much easier to respond to a specific suggestion rather than a wall of text. -- Scray (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Scray, do you also have secondary sources to back up the claim in the article that the fibers and the lesions are not real? I have no major problem with the consensus that there are no parasites, but take exception to the statement that: "the fibers found were normal clothing fibers". If you do not have secondary sources for this claim about the fibers being normal clothing fibers, the article should not make such a statement in the introduction (in the second paragraph).
Furthermore, there is no justification for saying "there were no disease organisms present in Morgellons patients" in the second paragraph of this article. The CDC study reference next to that statement does not say or support that. The CDC study only says that "No parasites or mycobacteria were detected". So the CDC apparently only looked at parasites and mycobacteria. So all you can say from the CDC study is that "no parasites and mycobacteria were found in one study". Drgao (talk) 23:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


Also, note that the CDC study referenced in the introduction to the article is a primary source, and therefore to place the conclusions of this CDC study in such a prominent position in the introductory paragraphs is itself a violation of WP:MEDRS, which states that "When citing primary sources, particular care must be taken to adhere to Misplaced Pages's undue weight policy." The article should not give high prominence and weight to the CDC study conclusions by placing them in the introduction of the article. So this violation of WP:MEDRS needs to be addressed. As a primary source, the CDC study can be perhaps mentioned, but not in any major detail, and not in a prominent position in the article. Drgao (talk) 01:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The CDC study was introduced in the lede as arising from lobbying, which was reported on before the study was completed, and is therefore relevant regardless of the conclusions of the study. The conclusions themselves are relevant, and are supported by the secondary sources which point towards a psychiatric basis for the condition rather than a specific underlying physical pathology. The CDC study was also cited in a 2013 paper by Wong & Koo. The clarification of the conclusions of the study may well benefit from directly quoting that particular section of the CDC article- "No common underlying medical condition or infectious source was identified, similar to more commonly recognized conditions such as delusional infestation." 137.111.13.200 (talk) 03:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Then if the CDC study reference relates to the section of this article about lobbing, then it should appear there, but not in the intro to the article. In particular, the CDC study is used as a reference to the statement in the article intro that "the fibers found were normal clothing fibers". You cannot make such a statement unless you have secondary sources to back up this statement. Drgao (talk) 04:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Well which is it? Mention of the CDC study in the intro is improper because of sourcing issues, or it is improper because it pertains to the sphere of governmental reaction to lobbying? These are two different issues, neither of which seem to have any merit. A cursory description of what is known about the condition is given, with a brief description of the context in which research of the condition took place. The fact that the results of that research don't please a particular organisation or demographic is beside the point to how the condition is described in the intro. As for the primary vs secondary sourcing issue, it is a non-issue. The CDC study was cited in a later research article as a result of a lit review, which is the secondary source you would be demanding. Citing the CDC study- "The fibers that were collected from the patients' skin were skin fragments and fabric material"- Wong JW, Koo JY. Delusions of parasitosis. Indian J Dermatol 2013;58:49-52. Since you feel the absence of the citation to this secondary source so keenly, I will let you add it. I wouldn't want to scratch someone else's itch.137.111.13.200 (talk) 02:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

reliable medical references

I am repeating myself, but the dominant editors on this topic have repeatedly ignored WP policy and my objections to their misuse of WP policy. There seems to be a lot of confusion about primary and secondary sources, and high and low quality sources. 1) According to WP policy on medical articles, ideally secondary sources should be used. These are medical guidelines, general or systematic reviews (published and peer-reviewed in a reputable journal), professional text book etc. Examples of reliable secondary sources do NOT include TV interviews or popular press (newspapers or magazines). The Morgellons article is over 50% popular press. 2) Having said that -- WP:MEDRS indicates reliable peer-reviewed medical journal articles that are PRIMARY sources CAN be used when reliable secondary sources are lacking. THAT is the case with Morgellons. Dove Press and F1000 articles are peer-reviewed and are published in reputable scientific, medical journals. No, WP:MEDRS does not say a source has to be MEDLINE indexed or even Pub Med indexed for that matter. It only recommends these indexes as good resources for finding reliable literature. 3) Anyone questioning the quality of Clin Cosmet Investig Dermatol or F1000 Research should provide proof that they are lacking in quality. You will note that the editorial boards of both these journals are highly qualified professionals who are acknowledged experts in their fields. The editor-in-chief of Clin Cosmet Investig Dermatol is Dr. Jeffery Weinberg. He is an assistant clinical professor of dermatology at Columbia University, College of Physicians and Surgeons, NYC. As I mentioned before the editorial board of F1000 Research includes internationally renowned experts in their field, including Nobel Prize winners, fellows of the Royal Society, Lasker Award winners, members of the National Academy of Science, and Members of the Institute of Medicine. The F1000 Head of Faculty for Dermatology is Dr Stephen Katz from the National Institutes of Health, USA. I would think very carefully about saying that these people are not capable of putting together a quality publication. Do you actually believe that a newspaper reporter knows more about medicine that Dr Weinberg? Or a reporter from Popular Mechanics can provide more reliable medical information than Dr Katz? Your irrational arguments about these journals shows editorial bias. As a reader of wikipedia, I expect better neutrality. The entire article should be re-examined for NPOV. For the time being how about including the infectious evidence -- that is published in peer-reviewed medical journals? It is a SIGNIFICANT minority POV. Significant minority POVs are considered to be essential for maintaining NPOV by WP policies.Erythema (talk) 03:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)Eythema

The problems with these refs have been pointed out to you, if you don't get it that is your problem. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
No, the problems with your arguments, Dbrodbeck, have been amply pointed out to you, and it you who is slow on understanding. Drgao (talk) 03:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Please read WP:CONSENSUS, and, all of the other policies that have been pointed out to you. This is not a debating society, we have rules, and you do not seem to understand them Dbrodbeck (talk) 04:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes we have rules, and the rules are not on your side in this case. How do you answer the point made above by Erythema about significant minority POVs being essential for maintaining NPOV? Don't waffle or put up smokescreens, just answer this question.
To quote : "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it."
As it stands, this article is violating the NPOV policy, and even if there is a consensus of crony editors here supporting that lack of neutrality, you are wrong, and what you are doing is fundamentally against Misplaced Pages policy. Drgao (talk) 04:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The article is neutral with respect to high-quality sources. -- Scray (talk) 04:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Don't give me your smokescreen twaddle Scray. The article needs to be neutral with respect to reliable sources. As it stands, it is not neutral with respect to reliable sources, largely because the editors appear to be biased. Drgao (talk) 04:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Drgao, if you wish to succeed here and not get blocked, you'll have to stop violating policy. A very important one is to assume good faith (AGF). Denigrating other editors and accusing them of (what they may view as) your own behavior and motives doesn't help matters. Use more neutral language and discuss content, not editors. Remember this cuts both ways and you are not immune from bias, so don't point fingers. We are all imperfect and we all have to work together here, so we must maintain a collaborative environment. If you can't do that, then please find something else to do. If you're willing to give it a try, then you are very welcome here. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I always assume good faith, at least at the beginning, until the behavior of an editor provides evidence to the contrary. Good faith is defined as honesty or sincerity of intention. However, it seems to me that editors Dbrodbeck and Scray and others have not displayed honesty. If these editors were honest and sincere, they would not engage in the deceitful practice of quoting Misplaced Pages rules that support their polarized, biased views on what material is to be included in the article, while at the same time, not bringing to my attention Misplaced Pages rules that support the inclusion of the material I have suggested. If they were honest people, they would look at the Misplaced Pages rules in an objective, dispassionate fashion, and try to do what is correct and right by these Misplaced Pages rules. If they were honest people, they would say, yes, there are Misplaced Pages rules that support the inclusion of the material I suggested. That is what an honest, sincere person would do. That is good faith. But no, these editors are very selective about the Misplaced Pages rules they bring forward, and only mention the rules that favor their views. Dbrodbeck and Scray are apparently quite happy to manipulate Misplaced Pages rules for their favor, like clever lawyers.
I have been looking for some official way to report editors Dbrodbeck and Scray to Misplaced Pages administration, on account of their less than honest behavior. Is there an official way to report such bevahoiur to Misplaced Pages administration? Another question I have is how do you ask for a higher level authority to arbitrate a dispute like the one here. clearly sates that "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." So when editors here seem to flout this nonnegotiable Misplaced Pages policy, they need to be reported, and arbitration is required. Perhaps you can advise on how this can be achieved, BullRangifer.
I agree that I am not immune from bias, and I have my own views and options. But the difference is that I also understand that Misplaced Pages is not a platform for people's opinions, including my own, but rather is charged with presenting objective, reliable and unbiased material. Thus because I act in good faith, I would never try to suppress a viewpoint that is contrary to my own view in a Misplaced Pages article, because that would simply be wrong, by Misplaced Pages's policies. Dbrodbeck and Scray are apparently not mature enough to understand that Misplaced Pages must come before their personal view and opinions. Drgao (talk) 06:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Categories: