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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Persistent edit stalking

I have asked User:Nikkimaria to stop stalking my edits, more than once:

• User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 18#Enough
• User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Removal of infoboxes
• Talk:Hans-Joachim Hessler#Infobox
• Talk:St Mary's, Bryanston Square
• And in edit summaries and talk pages not logged

as have other editors (e.g. User:RexxS in the first link above and at User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Infobox; User:Gerda Arendt; User:PumpkinSky at User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Please stop). Despite this, she has continued to do so for some months. Examples, almost always on articles she had never previously edited, include:

• (newly created by me)
• at Mabel Richardson - since deleted
• at Eric Brooke Dunlop - since deleted
• (newly created by me)
• (newly created by another editor)
• (diff added 18:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC))

and most recently, today: ).

This is both stressful for me; and has (as I suspect is the intention) an inhibiting effect on my editing. I am here to ask an uninvolved adminstartor to caution her not to do so, in accordance with Arbcom rulings (e.g.), on pain of escalating blocks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I have asked the editor to address the issues, and warned of a block or ban, at User_talk:Nikkimaria#Persistent_edit_stalking. Bearian (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Well gee, I think we should wait for the other side of the story before threatening to ban her, don't you? Ed  20:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm going to refrain from any administrative actions (for several reasons) for the moment, but I do think this is an issue that needs to be addressed. While I had primarily had concerns over some of the "Classical music" articles which Gerda had worked on, if there are multiple editors expressing a similar concern on the issue then I think it's worth exploring. The "info box" issue is a massive time-sink and it appears that there's no resolution in sight - but for now perhaps it's best to just focus on the issue of an admin. edit warring and whatever the proper terminology of the day happens to be. Awaiting input from Nikkimaria. — Ched :  ?  20:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • All I am saying is that Pigsonthewing has made a prima facie case of Wikibullying, which could result in a ban. I am not sure that Nikkimaria quite understands how serious this issues has become. After the Qworty incident, I think we need to wield the mop a little more. Bearian (talk) 20:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Rushing to wield the mop is just as bad, if not worse, than taking too long. Ed  21:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It does look a little obvious. This does appear serious (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• Several articles which I think deserve attention in regards to this problem:

• Mass in B minor structure
• Sparrow Mass
• Hans-Joachim Hessler

there are others. Also, re: Bearian, I was certainly not discounting your thoughts - in fact I very much agree, I'd just prefer to hear all sides before dropping any hammers on folks. (per Ed and not wishing to rush to judgement on any topic). — Ched :  ?  21:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing has a long history of aggressively pushing infoboxes in articles against the objections of those writing the articles, in many cases edit-warring or being incivil in his efforts. Talk:Pilgrim_at_Tinker_Creek#Infobox and Talk:Cosima_Wagner/Archive_1#Infobox are among many examples, going back years, of these actions. He has continued to argue in the face of strong consensus against his position (for example at Talk:The_Rite_of_Spring#Infobox) and has a history of refusing efforts to compromise (see for example the last few posts at Talk:Hans-Joachim_Hessler - a compromise was suggested, I agreed, Andy rejected it entirely) or answer good-faith questions (see for example Talk:Little_Moreton_Hall#Infobox, right before the "Re-Start" heading). As the ArbCom decision Andy cites makes clear, the use of contributions to address related issues on multiple articles is appropriate if done in good faith and for good cause, both of which I believe apply in this case (and many editors agree that Andy's behaviour has been problematic, although some do not). As is clear from the list Andy provides, most of my changes have been simple fixes of his formatting - removing blank parameters, delinking common terms, etc - while others have involved instances where Andy has been unable or unwilling to justify his changes (see for example Talk:St_Mary's,_Bryanston_Square). The two discussions on my talk page also demonstrate that I have explained my reasoning civilly to Andy on multiple occasions and that he has refused to discuss the issue with me. It is not my intention to cause stress for Andy, but I would appreciate it if he would stop causing stress for other editors and make more of an effort to work with others and find means of compromising, whether or not he agrees with the opinions of other editors. I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Anyone reading this, needs to be aware that User:Pigsonthewing has been literally causing problems with infoboxes for years. It's understandable that someone would monitor his edits in this area more closely than usual. 78.149.172.10 (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

And anyone reading your comment likely wonders why you choose not to sign-in to voice your thoughts. — Ched :  ?  21:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

@ Nikki: re: "I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward. " - I think that would go a LONG way towards moving forward here. Would you be willing to extend the same courtesy to Gerda?

Now, the infamous "info box wars" are not going to be resolved in this thread - but I offer this: I think it's a common courtesy that would serve the project well to allow the principle author of an article the choice in many formatting areas; including the choice to include or exclude an infobox. — Ched :  ?  21:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Please see Richard_Wagner — No infobox and following discussions. In this case the wishes of the principle author Smerus were not respected by Gerda Arendt and Pigsonthewing. There are many other examples, but this was recent. It was provocative because of the high standard of this article, DYKs, the Wagner anniversary etc. --Kleinzach 05:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda would be a bit trickier, as our interests overlap quite a bit - I've been doing quite a lot of work lately in expanding Bach cantata articles, and as she too has been working in this area, we already share authorship on a few of them (for example both of us contributed to BWV 39, recently on the main page). Your larger point about infoboxes, though, I think we might agree on. Andy has objected strongly to that reasoning, which has been part of the problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not on board with the notion that the principle author should be accorded this latitude. In fact, as I was formulating my response, I started with the notion that the answer was generally yes, but I didn't agree on the infobox, but as I considered other examples, I began to reject them. Maybe there are some examples, but none come to mind. One of the aspects of Misplaced Pages that is useful to readers, is that they know what to expect—there will be a lede, there will be references, there will be sections, it will be written in a certain style (not a first narrative, for example). While I wouldn't expect an article on a Bach Cantata to follow the same cookie cutter style as an article on a member of the 1927 Yankees, I would expect some similarity between structures of articles in the same category. Maybe we are not yet ready to resolve the infobox wars, but leaving the decision to the principle author is not a step in the right direction.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:34, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• I've interacted with Nikkimaria in the past and I can say from experience that although she seems to have Misplaced Pages's best interests at heart, the zeal with which she accomplishes her missions can go over the top at times. Indeed her block log shows that the line between zeal and combativeness have become blurred for her a number of times in the past. While passion is an important part of what makes good editors great, if the same passion is directed into a negative channel by one of our trusted mop-wielders then the results can be quite unsettling for us mere mortals. Because this isn't the first (or even second) time that this issue of over-the-top passion has become an issue for Nikkimaria, I wonder whether something more formal than her promise to stop editing only those articles that Pigsonthewing has written would be a good idea. Nikkimaria is a valuable contributor here and it would be a shame to see her further tarred by this issue. I'd recommend that she avoid watching Pigsonthewings' edits altogether. There are so many more positive ways that an editor can contribute to Misplaced Pages and Nikkimaria surely has the passion to make great improvements elsewhere on the 'pedia. -Thibbs (talk) 22:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• I saw this or an RFC/u re Nikki coming weeks ago and divorced myself from the inevitable wiki mess. But Andy posted on my talk and mentioned me above, so I will comment. Agreeing to avoid Andy is a start, but what about Gerda Arendt, and your infobox warring in general? Let's not forget your teamed edit warring over an entry in Franz Kafka's infobox, not mention numerous other articles that had infoboxes. Nikki clearly has an excessive zeal for infoboxes and IMHO should be banned from editing them until she learns that infoboxes serve a valid purpose and many, if not most, users, like them. That an admin is doing this is even more troubling. With that said, I again divorce myself from these proceedings. PumpkinSky talk 22:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
• My 2 cents: Thank you, everyone, for taking this concern seriously. Bearian (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh without a doubt this is very serious Bearian, and I never meant to be dismissive of the situation. My own personal choice however is to "fix" things, rather than just toss them out. I think it's very VERY important to understand that .. for lack of a better word .. "stalking another contributor's edits" should be completely unacceptable. And by that I mean in the sense that any attempts to make another editor's time on wiki unpleasant should be quickly stopped. There are and have been accounts which were primarily disruptive, and to research those things is always acceptable. Now, rather than "demand" apologies, or some sort of submissive "I will comply" - I tend to favor a "how do we move forward in a way that's productive to the project" approach. (and I assume everyone here feels that moving forward in productive ways is a good thing). Nikki has offered one step in the right direction here in agreeing to avoid Andy's articles - good! The issue as far as Gerda may be a bit more complicated however. Since both edit in the same topic area (classical music), then they will obviously cross paths. From what I've seen there have been honest attempts on both sides to find a common ground, all in good faith. My suggestion would be that whoever gets to working on an article first be given the latitude to create or improve the article without any harassment. I have some further thoughts developing at the moment, but it may take some time for me to flesh them out. Either way, I think it's imperative that Nikkimaria stop researching what other editors are working on, and going to those pages to impose a particular preference. Nikki has done some amazing work from DYK to FA, and I'd hate to lose that. With that I will leave further commentary to the rest of the community. — Ched :  ?  00:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I have been called to this scene. I assume in good faith that you, Nikkimaria, are as sincerely interested in Bach's works is as I am. However, I don't understand why you needed to change almost every infobox for them BEFORE the talk about the template, {{infobox Bach composition}}, came to a conclusion, sometimes just hiding three lines of a list, sometimes (but not lately any more, thank you) doing so using {{Collapsed infobox section begin}} which I don't accept as a compromise for articles I feel responsible for, as explained on your talk. I would like to get the planned article on Baroque instuments to Main space first and THEN adjust the infoboxes. (No reader has been hurt so far by an abbreviation he doesn't understand.) I trust that we can work it out, confessing that I sometimes thought that a series of reverts was a waste of time, - for those who want to understand what I mean, have a look at history and talk of Mass in B minor structure (a work in progress). With less assuming good faith, it might have looked a lot like stalking. - I would like you and others to show more good faith toward Andy whom I haven't seen "pushing" recently (see the above mentioned The Rite of Spring discussion), but helping (!) with {{infobox opera}}, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I've been on the fringes of this issue with the classical music infobox issue. I don't think an interaction ban is appropriate, nor a general editing ban. HOWEVEr, I do have a proposal: Seems to me that the best solution is to ask that Nikki simply NOT edit infoboxes where they exist and not to remove them where they have been placed by others. She can call actual factual infobox errors to the attention of other editors at the respective article talk pages if she sees them, and I see no reason that she cannot continue to discuss the general issue in appropriate fora (the project pages, for example, but not across a dozen different articles),. Thus, I think that a restriction on Nikki either editing or removing infoboxes would be appropriate, as she appears to have lost perspective on the issue. Nikki, is this something you could live with, at least for a while? Montanabw 17:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hmm. This is a one-sided discussion with all the pro-boxers out in force, and those who have reservations about boxes absent. I only found it by accident. (The common non-specific title Persistent edit stalking minus Nikkimaria’s name serves to obscure the discussion — assembled admins please note).

In my experience, Nikkimaria has been reasonable and considerably less aggressive than Andy Mabbett and Gerda Arendt. The latter have been developing new infoboxes and applying them to articles without notifying concerned editors. (In this connection, see for example here and here).

I was surprised that Andy Mabbett should make this kind of accusation against Nikkimaria, given that he consistently reverts my own edits (for example: , , , , ], , . As I observe WP:1RR and never complain here, I guess I'm an easy target. I am not sure what 'edit stalking' means in a WP context, but I assume it involves watching another editor's contribution list and then jumping in with an edit or reversion. Well, is anyone seriously suggesting that Andy Mabbett doesn't do this? Kleinzach 04:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, for what it's worth. Pigsonthewing's behaviour with regard to infoboxes at WP:COMPOSERS has usually added nothing but bad vibes to many talk pages. Toccata quarta (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Whenever I have noticed editor Nikkimaria's work, it has been very thoughtful and helpful. I think she deserves full backup here. It's Pigsonthewing who is the big Wiki-problem; he's an incredibly disruptive editor who wastes a vast amount of other editors' time through harassment, wiki-lawyering, and forum-shopping. This guy has been banned before, and it's really time now to make it permanent. Opus33 (talk) 05:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I have been called aggressive above, and disagree with that as well. Yes, I have added infoboxes to articles other than mine, such as Sparrow Mass, and found the agreement of the principal author. No, I have not added an infobox on Bach, just suggested one. No, I have not even suggested to use one for Richard Wagner, knowing that the principal authors are against it, I only showed how could look, following an advice of Nikkimaria to have an infobox on the talk page if it was not wanted on the article. The way "vibes" are raised every time something that should be factual and simple (an infobox) is mentioned doesn't cease to surprise me. - What do you think of the compromise that in cases of a known conflict of interests on the topic, changes are not made to the infobox but discussed on the talk? This includes adding one and socalled "cleanup". - This was done for The Rite of Spring, have a look at the ratio of facts and vibes. - If it had been respected for BWV 103 - , , , , , , , , ... ) - we would have wasted less time. Btw, the cantata title translates to "You will weep and wail" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I am repeatedly surprised by the passion that this infobox thing arouses in the classical music project. For someone who spends most of his Misplaced Pages time hanging around middle east disputes, where the fate of nations seems to hang on this or that word, this particular issue seems so, so bland. That said, the agreement achieved in the last major discussion on this seems to me a good one- that you should seek consensus on the talk page before adding an infobox. I have done this occasionally at articles about those extremely esoteric composers who interest me, gotten no feedback whatsoever, and then did what I wanted. The one who has consistently ignored this agreement is Pigsonthewing, who goes about planting infoboxes in articles as though they (the articles,I mean) were the octopus's garden. So I join (without a great deal of enthusiasm) Toccata's and Opus's assessment that it is Pigs, and not Maria, who deserves censure here. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, we had an edit conflict, - see the above examples, - I think we agree on less passion on the topic, - censuring anybody seems not the right approach to achieve — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs)

Your statement that prior consent is needed to add an infobox to some articles (presumably classical music) puzzles me. I read both Help:Infobox and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes, both of which discuss article by article consensus, but neither mentions that there are different rules for classical music article. I'm not so sure that such special rules are a good idea, but if the community has decided that classical music articles follow different rules than every other articles, shouldn't this be prominently mentioned in the relevant guidelines?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Censure is indeed not the correct approach whilst one retains any hope that the contenders in a dispute are amenable to reason and consideration for others. Where one or both (or their partisans) show themselves not thus amenable - and in particular where there is a history of such implacability - what then? I put this question as dispassionately as possible. In this particular instance of pot-and-kettle, my inclination is towards the opinion of Ravpapa (talk). However - Declaration of interest: I have lodged a quite separate - but not entirely spiritually unconnected - complaint about Mr. Mabbett here.--Smerus (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Is anyone going to look into what the origins of this editorial disagreement is? Its not uncommon for Andy to try and bully his changes through against well-established consensus with wikilawyering in order to avoid actual debate. Don't let him do it. Make him actually make his case and try to achieve consensus.DavidRF (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

How does that excuse, in any way, an editor following Andy around the project, including making plainly pointy edits to pages he's just created? It's one thing for the classical music project and its various affiliates to go around owning pages that its members were the primary contibutors to (it's not a good thing in any way whatsoever, but at least it's something everyone is used to by now), but it's quite another to go stalking new pages created by the Filthy Outsiders (Andy in particular) and enforcing that group's idiosyncracies on them as well. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow. You've completely misrepresented everyone's complaints about Andy. We'd welcome being overruled by "filthy outsiders" (your strawman characterization, not mine) if someone of authority came in and made the ruling. But we play by the rules, we debate for a week or two, we reach a consensus and update the wikiproject style guide and then Andy ignores the consensus and pretends to be unaware of any debate that had occurred. We repeat the debate for another week, reach consensus again and again its ignored. Repeat again, etc. If you get angry and overreact, then Andy uses your overreaction against you. Its infuriating and extremely hard to assume good faith when interacting with him. I don't understand how debate and reaching consensus is considered "owning" while ignoring consensus and refusing to debate is not "owning", although we're used to it by now too. I don't know User:Nikkimaria very well, if she overreacted way too far, then do what you have to do, but don't go around mischaracterizing people's complaints like you've just done. I thought admins at ANI were the supposed to be the voice of reason, but you guys are just as petty and snipey as any other editor.DavidRF (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

"Everyone's complaints about Andy" are not the issue here. I'm well aware of Andy's history on the project and of the various matters in which his behaviour is considered problematic. But as of right now, he's an editor in good standing on the project, and when he's going around making productive contributions to articles (including writing them from scratch) he should not be expected to have to continually look over his shoulder in case an editor holding a grudge is following him and systematically working to undo him. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Convenience break

Comment I see a troubling tendency of editors lining up into "Andy's right" and "Nikkimaria's right" camps. That approach is rarely helpful, and rarely correct. I see a lot of links included; I've just started looking at them,and asking each about them. I've found less than exemplary behavior by both, so far. I see both trying to make the encyclopedia better, both with views on how that should be achieved, but the views clash. In some cases, they are on opposite sides of a debate which the community has failed to resolve, and unfortunately, have chosen to push their particular view if what is right. While it is undoubtedly more work than picking one to smack around, it would be better if we identified the open issues and attempted to resolve them.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

My comment above was the results of looking at some of the edits identified by Andy, and observing some editorial decisions made by Nikkimaria. In some cases I agree, in some cases I did not. In no case did I feel that it was as clear cut as a violation of policy, rather it was an interpretation or a gray are where we differ. I've commented at her talk page, and see no need to revisit it here, partly because I reread Andy's report, and see no mention that he disagreed with any particular edit, the only charge is stalking.

As all know, the charge of stalking, or Misplaced Pages:WIKIHOUNDING is problematic. A common set of facts showing up at this notice board involves an editor who makes some mistake, is corrected by a second editor, and then the second editor decides it would be prudent to check through other contributions of the first editor to see if there are other issues. That results in editor one observing that editor two is showing up at articles they've never edited before and making quite a few changes in short order. It sure looks like wikihounding. This behavior is not just tolerated, it is encouraged. As an extreme case, when some has enough copyvios, we go through a CCI which involves review of every single edit. In more benign cases, it involves review of many recent edits by some editor, the placing of that editor on their watchlist (which may be automatic), followed by subsequent changes. All acceptable. In other cases, some editor gets upset at another editor, and decide to stalk their every edit, reverting often, commenting acrimoniously, and not always within policy. Our policy notes that one set of actions occurs "with good cause", while the other is prohibited, but doesn't provide much guidance on how to tell the difference. It doesn't sound amenable to a simple metric, and may need the Potter Stewart treatment.

Andy wants to know what we are going to do about it. Step one is to determine if, in fact, the evidence supports the charge.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:16, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

To pre-empt concerns such as "Our policy ... doesn't provide much guidance on how to tell the difference" I provided a link, above, to a recent Arbcom ruling. Since it clearly wasn't obvious enough, so allow me to quote:

...relevant factors include whether the subject editor's contributions are actually viewed as problematic by multiple users or the community; whether the concerned editor raises concerns appropriately on talkpages or noticeboards and explains why the edits are problematic; and ultimately, whether the concerns raised reasonably appear to be motivated by good-faith, substantiated concerns about the quality of the encyclopedia, rather than personal animus against a particular editor.

Also, please do not confuse my not commenting on the content of the edits given as agreeing with them; my concern here is stalking, and I deliberately addressed only that. You will note that I have challenged the majority, either by reverting, or on the respective talk pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, thanks for the link to the Arbcom ruing. I just reviewed five cases of wikihounding, which weren't very helpful. I missed the link you gave earlier, and will review it.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy thanks for the clarification that not commenting on the substance of the edits should not be construed as agreement. I do see disagreement about editing policy and appreciate that those were not brought here, which for review of behavior. I had started a post on how to address some of those editing policies, but it didn't belong here, and then I realized you hadn't raised it. I did not mean to imply that your silence here on those issues was concurrence.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I reviewed 50 edits of Nikkimaria, those just prior to the filing by Andy. (That is probably not enough, but it is tedious, and if viewed as a useful metric, we should find someone to automate it.) In each edit, I checked to see if Nikkimaria was editing just after Andy, or not. In 2 of the 50 edits, her edit followed his. In 48, it did not. This does not preclude the possibility that there were intervening edits, and she was editing something he had edited. That can be checked.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Numbers don't tell the whole story, but here are some counts

Andy identified 22 diffs in the list above in which Nikkimaria edited immediately after Andy. (The list is characterized as examples, so may not be exhaustive.) 22 seems like a lot, and I confess if some editor reverted me 22 times I'd not treat it as coincidence. But it is relevant to look at the count in light of Nikkimaria's contributions. The 22 diffs cover the time range 21 December 2012 to 5 June 2013. If I count correctly (and I did it quickly) Nikkimaria has over 7000 edits in the same time period. That means less than one third of one per cent of Nikkimaria's edits are in that list, which doesn't, on its face, sound like single minded obsession with another editor. It might be useful to have metrics for cases in which wikihounding has been upheld as well as cases in which it has been dismissed, to see if the metric is useful and how this compares. I do not have those numbers, but if a case of wikihounding exists, it will (IMO) have to be on the nature of the edits, not on the counts. I have identified one edit that troubled me, and asked Nikkimaria about it. I'll keep looking.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:26, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It is also relevant to look at Andy's count over the same time period. If I counted correctly there are about 9500 edits in the same time period. Which means the 22 edits identified are less than one quarter of one per cent of Andy's edits. This isn't presented as definitive proof, but if editor A targets editor B in violation of policy, I would expect significantly higher percentages.

That would appear to excuse bad behaviour based on good behaviour elsewhere. I don't believe we've ever defined stalking to specifically involve a particular ratio of one editor's contributions in any case. One does not have to devote one's entire wikicareer to following a particular editor for it to be obvious that one has a pattern of following that editor around and making combative edits that have a deleterious effect on community relations. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Suggested close

I'm too involved to close this myself, but I've read enough, and seen too many deficiencies on both sides such that I cannot to recommend that Nikkimaria be sanctioned for wikihouding or Andy for provoking. I know it sounds like the easy way out, but it isn't simply that both have flaws—I've searched several of the edits listed by Andy to look for evidence that either has attempted editing101—go to the article talk page to discuss the issue, and came up empty. (Addendum, I reviewed the 21 diffs and see three cases where Andy bought it up on the talk page. I see three other instances of talk page edits, 2 by Andy, one by Nikkimaria, but not related to each other's edits)

As I posted on each of their talk pages:

I feel both of you deserve trouts, and request that you both drop the sticks, start over, and follow Editing 101 processes. Then, if one or the other does violate policies, guidelines or editing protocol expected by the community, it will be far easier to admonish the guilty party.

I hope an uninvolved admin will close this and urge that they both start over.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:36, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

What on Earth does that have to do with the fact that she's stalking my edits - and has tacitly acknowledged doing so here and when I raised the matter on her talk page?

Here's where I raised one such staking on an article talk page (she didn't respond): ; and another: (which is clearly linked in my fist set of links, above( and another: .

But even had I not done so; stalking is prohibited, with few exceptions, that are not applicable here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I for one, did not mention Andy before simply because I know much about this background. The problem with SPB's proposal is that it won't solve anything and we'll see another ANI or RFCU or (yuck) Arbcom case. Something more than a dual trout slapping is needed here.PumpkinSky talk 20:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Pumpkinsky, do you have something specific in mind? While I'm still getting up to speed, and may well not have the understanding that others have in these incidents, I see an editor who thinks that anyone wishing to add an infobox to an article requires a consensus discussion at the talk page if an editor disagrees. I think that's a perversion of the intent of BRD, but maybe I'm wrong. We should have a community discussion to see what the community thinks. The same editor thinks empty parameters in infoboxes should be removed, even though the policy doesn't support that conclusion, so as a community, we should clarify what to do with empty parameters. It also appears that some subset of articles (classical music) has their own special rules appliable to infoboxes, which are not discussed in the logical locations. Let's find out if the community agrees, and decide, one way or the other. Several of the disputed edits are traceable to two editors taking a different position on these issues. It is hard to declare that one, or the other editor is in the wrong, if the policies are silent, conflicting or unclear. Color me naive, but I see two editors, both intent on improving the encyclopedia, who have different views about specific aspects of editing policy, and if we resolve those issue, either the issues will go away (ok, no, I'm not that naive) or we will have clearer policy planks to smack around violators.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

How many editors do you see stalking? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, I'm happy to see that there are some cases where you posted on the talk page, as is the desired process. I see that Nikkimaria did not respond, as she should have. As I mentioned, I did not review everyone of the edits you cited. I found some early in the list that had no such notice on the talk page, and some late in the list. If you think I coincidentally stumbled on a misrepresentation subset, feel free to let me know how many of the reverts were followed by talk page discussions. If that is important. However, your point, it seems, is that she engaged in stalking and has tacitly admitted it. I don't see diffs. You have over 9500 edits during this period, so I don't have time to review them all to search. Can you point out what you mean?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree that Nikki seems to be stalking Andy and Gerda and that issue is more than just the infobox war issue. I've seen many cases like this in my years and I fear the whole case won't be known unless an AC case is opened. That doesn't mean AC is the only solution. This is what I propose: 1) Nikki and Andy banned from editing, adding, or removing any infobox (that way one side can't say they're being picked on) until an RFC on Infoboxes is concluded, 2) the RFC on Infoboxes runs for 1-3 months and covers scope of their use and what to do if disagreements arise, 3) both of them agree to the outcome of the RFC or said person is banned from them for one year, 4) IMHO Nikki is lucky she hasn't been blocked and/or de-adminned for stalking. Just my 2 cents and keep in mind I know much more about Nikki re Gerda than Nikki re Andy. PumpkinSky talk 22:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see an RfC on infoboxes. There are a number of issues that should be resolved. You stated that the issue is more than infoboxes. What else? I just reviewed every one of the 21 edits listed by Andy and every single one involves the edit of an infobox. Andy raised this at ANI, not as a referendum on infobox edits, but as a claim of stalking. I think that claim is weak, and should be dismissed. Any proposal to ban should be brought up at AN, not ANI, and should be brought up as a new item. We have set, IMO, a bad precedent in some threads of an editor raising one issue, and the community jumping into different areas. I see that as an abuse of process. (Which does not mean I am opposed to boomerang, or using editors other edits to decide upon remedies). If someone wants to propose a ban covering one or both, they should propose it at AN with the relevant diffs. While the one's that Andy listed might be part of that list, and proposal to ban them both ought to be done by another party looking at contributions of both. If someone wants an Arbcom case, they can propose one. That sounds like overkill, as I have yet to see that this is broader than policy disagreements in several narrowly defined areas of infoboxes. Arbcom's remit is behavior, not tweaking editorial policy.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:09, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Nobody else here - not even those seeing me as some kind of satan; not even Nikki herself - has said that there is no stalking. The evidence is plain to see. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The diffs are given in my initial post, at the head of this section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sphil, you say you would like to see an RFC on infoboxes. I call your attention to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC, an extensive RFC on the subject that took place in 2010. To summarize, there was a clear majority of editors who opposed inclusion of infoboxes in classical music articles, and a strong minority in favor (I was in the minority). The conclusion of the discussion was that editors should post to the talk page before creating an infobox. I thought that was an eminently fair and reasonable solution to the problem, and I think that if everyone follows that community decision, the problem will be largely solved. If Andy, Maria and Gerda agree to abide by that decision, it seems we can close this whole thing amicably. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

That's an extreme simplification of the outcome of that RfC, and under no circumstances does it excuse an editor systematically stripping infoboxes from pages that another editor has written from scratch. A large part of the debate in question stemmed from the fetishing of Original Authors and not editing in ways that would discourage them from creating content. Stalking someone's new pages and stripping content from them couldn't be a clearer violation of that. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Chris, but it's not an over-simlification, it's a gross misrepresentation. (If I'm wrong, Ravpapa will obviously quote the part of the closing remarks which mandate "that editors should post to the talk page before creating an infobox".) Furthermore, many of the examples I give at the top of this section have nothing to do with classical music. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

New day, this is (again) too much for me to read. How did we get from stalking to infobox again? - I hope I will live to see the day that the addition of an infobox is considered added (useful, structured, accessible) content and not as "aggressive" or "provoking". - "Did you know ... that infoboxes on Misplaced Pages are used to extract structured content using machine learning algorithms?" (Yesterday's Main page) - Until that day, I will add one only to my own articles and others where I assume the main author(s) will be happy about it. In other cases, I will only mention it on the talk page - or not at all. I will not revert one nor collapse sections. - If everybody involved did the same, we might get a bit closer to the envisioned day, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the outcome of the RFC. Here are the remarks by the closing admin:

Wikiproject Composers does not recommend the use of biographical infoboxes for classical composer articles.

• WikiProjects are free to publish guidelines and recommendations but do not have the authority to override a local consensus on the talk page of an article.
• The guideline on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers has been rewritten according to consensus found in this discussion. (my emphasis)
• There is sufficient support for Template:Infobox classical composer to be created, with a minimal set of fields, and added to articles where there is consensus to do so.
• Infoboxes are not to be added nor removed systematically from articles. Such actions would be considered disruptive.

and here is the guideline that the admin is referring to:

We think it is normally best, therefore, to avoid infoboxes altogether for classical musicians, and we prefer to add an infobox to an article only following consensus for that inclusion on the article's talk page. (again, my emphasis) Particular care should be taken with Featured Articles as these have been carefully crafted according to clear consensus on their talkpages. (See the Request for Comment about composers' infoboxes and earlier infobox debates.

I understand that to mean that you should discuss on the talk page before adding an infobox. Am I missing something? --Ravpapa (talk) 11:06, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, that's an expression of how the members of one particular project prefer to behave. It has the same status as a paragraph on a single editor's user page. Neither the project nor its members own or control articles they chose to regard as within its scope. This is, though, irrelevant to the issue of stalking. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)MOS states: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. and that notice above the edit window says Work submitted to Misplaced Pages can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone (emphasis mine). So this concept that there is a "principal author" and they get to decide whether a given article has a box or not isn't supported by the policy. Looking at the first example provided, Forsbrook Pendant, I see that PotW added the box, Nm removed it -- which is in alignment per bold, and PotW restored it and editing ceased. Which is fine. On that particular article, the box provides no information -- it just repeats what's in a very short article and therefore just strikes me as just clutter. In any event, this whole thread strikes me as PotW doesn't want to discuss on a case by case basis whether given articles have boxes or not. Support close as no admin action appropriate. NE Ent 11:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not required by policy to have to ask permission every time you add an infobox, there's the concept to be bold. - BUT: I still recommend to do so, at least for a while, for reasons of politeness and respect. But that includes politeness and respect towards those who want an uncollapsed infobox - like me - also. (If you look at the history of BWV 103, mentioned above, that doesn't always happen.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

My desire for an RfC was not simply to determine whether infobox inclusion in a subset of articles should be handled differently; there are other open issues: how should empty parameters be treated, and what should the rules be for subjective fields. Both of those issues arose in the diffs above, and I have seen the issue of subjective fields causing edits wars elsewhere, so I want an RfC on infoboxes, not an RfC on infoboxes in composer articles. The RfC you linked did not reach conclusions on either of those issues.

Andy notes that the ANI was filed on a stalker issue. I see the discussion drifting to the substance underlying the conflict. I personally think if the underlying issues are resolved, it will make it easier to solve the conflict, but ANI is not the place to debate editorial policy.

Can we return to determining whether Andy has a case, and then we can determine where and how to open an RfC to address the editorial questions?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

No, NE Ent, it's that another editor is staking my edits. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, you keep saying that, but I don't see a lot of support for your position. As you pointed out, Arbcom gave some guidance and indicated that a relevant factor includes "whether the subject editor's contributions are actually viewed as problematic by multiple users or the community". So while you keep posting that I'm missing the point when I focus on the content, I'm doing so because of the ArbCom guidance. I happen to think that the position that infoboxes in certain articles have an exception which isn't even mentioned in Misplaced Pages:Infobox is unlikely to be sustained by the community, if actually discussed, but I could be wrong. If the community clearly points out that the handling of infoboxes should be consistent everywhere, then the reversion of your edits will be a violation and can be handled appropriately. If the community decides that the treatment should have an exception in the case of one Wikiproject, then it should note that in the guidelines, and you will have to accept the ruling. Whether you are being wikihounded is dependent on whether your edits are viewed as problematic, or whether Nikkimaria's are. At the moment, it isn't clear, and I cannot imagine the community will conclude wikihounding has occurred in such a gray area.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If you don't see support for my assertion that my edits are being stalked, then you need to re-read the above thread. I have already pointed out to you that you are the only person to have asserted that no stalking has taken place. The viewed as problematic point (disputable in the cases concerned) has several qualifiers in the Arbcom ruling, which you seem to ignore. Your focus on content remains irrelevant. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, a number of editors have weighed in and we need more. I count one, PumpkinSky, who has supported the stalking claim. You might point to Bearian, but that editor made an early comment before much of the evidence was reviewed, and hasn't weighed in since. At most, that's two, and that's counting generously. You are the one who linked to the Arbcom guidance which suggests we need to find edits by Nikkimaria that are not supported by policy. I've reviewed every single one of her edits, and do not recall that any were challenged by the community, and if I missed one, we need a pattern, not a single edit. That's the standard you linked to, and it does not support you. Ironically, I may be one of your bigger supporters. I do not like someone reverting the addition of an infobox, and I personally think the burden should be on the editor wanting to remove it, so that's why I'd like to see an RfC—I think it might support you and I will be supporting your position in it. But absent that community decision, we have 22 edits by Nikkimaria out of many thousands, none of which were challenged by the community. As stalking claims go, that's pretty weak tea.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me put it differently. In how many of the 22 edits listed did you bring the issue to the talk page, and get community support that your edit was appropriate? I can only find a single post of support, that by User:Magioladitis in Talk:Arthur Worsley. Can you point me to the clause in wp:consensus stating that getting a single editor to agree with you equates to community support?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Very simple solution here - will Andy and Nikki agree to avoid each other for the next (amount of time here). From what I see here its clear they are at odds about these boxes. We are talking about just a box....something that if there or not is not harming the project - however there interaction is causing problems. So lets deal with what is more disruptive...the behavior.Moxy (talk) 17:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

In most, possibly all cases, Andy chose to add an infobox to an article, and Nikkimaria chose to remove it on the basis that she believes it doesn't belong. If we adopt your simple solution, Andy can add infoboxes wherever he chooses, and she can do nothing about it. Is that your intended solution? Andy gets to decide which articles have infoboxes, and Nikkimaria has no say? (FTR, I do not agree with how Nikkimaria is responding, but I'm not willing to buy in to this extreme measure.)--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not only Andy adding infoboxes - there are many many editors that do just this and a project dedicate to this task. But there is however only one editor following the other correct? They should simply avoid each-other. I take it noone else feels they are being stocked in this manner correct? Moxy (talk) 21:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

First, I appreciate the time and research you've put into this SPhilbrick - and do want to make that clear. Now, as I read this in pertaining to the original post: Bearian, BWilkins, PumpkinSky, Thumperward, and I have all taken this as a serious situation. So I'm not sure exactly how weak that tea really is. I doubt it was ever intended that this thread be developed into a "info box" discussion, although I can't say I'm surprised that it has. I also understand how you would object to my "outside the box" thinking in regards to a common courtesy of a principle author; and fully understood that it is in ways contrary to WP:OWN, however - it's simply my own approach to a situation, rather than something I thought should be codified. Now, getting back to the stalking issue, I think it's only fair to say that Nikki has said: "I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward.]". Now perhaps that's not a full admission of anything, but I think it's implied that improvements can be made, and I trust that effort will be made. I also have concerns about this response, but note that both Gerda and Nikki seem willing to continue to work through this without intervention; so I'm inclined to respect that as well. I think Andy has made a good case for his complaint, but I'd like to think that with Nikki's agreement that we could mark this as closed, noted, and archived for future reference if needed. I can't say I'll be surprised if I see the term "info box" further up the road, but I'd also suspect that it would be a very unpleasant experience for MANY editors if/when it happens. I hadn't expected to comment further on this topic, but now I have. Hopefully I can walk away from this now unimpeded. — Ched :  ?  20:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If I've said anything to suggest I don't think it this is serious, please point it out so I can correct it. I think when two editors with 140K edits between them are at loggerheads, it is serious. When the underlying editorial issues are issues that have been festering for years without resolution, it is serious. However, Andy insists that the issue is narrow - Wikihounding to be precise. It is that charge which is weak tea. I challenge anyone to identify an ANI case where Wikihounding was upheld where the edits in question were a fraction of one per cent of the total edits. And no, Nikkimaria willingness to leave alone any article he has written is not an admission of wikihounding, it is a good faith attempt to resolve a conflict. What exactly, do you think should happen? Are you proposing that Nikkimaria should be blocked? How long, for what reason, and what rationale? We pretend that the purpose of a block is to prevent further harm, but she's already agreed not to edit an article he writes, so what would a block stop, other than the hundreds of good edits she is making even as we type?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Weak tea? Perhaps I have another language problem. I don't want to waste time in digging up diffs, and Nikkimaria will certainly have good explanations why she showed up at Peter Planyavsky for the first time the same day I installed an infobox (see talk), and on Andreas Scholl right after I reverted the collapsing of one (that I didn't create). - I am interested in an approach for working together better in the future, letting go of the past, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Whilst it may seem reasonable to insist that the case be narrowly focussed on the 'Wikihounding' issue, it's a ploy often used to avoid a WP:BOOMERANG. Let's be clear, though, that I'm not saying that its being so used here. The problem with this dance of tango is that one dancer seems to want the floor all to himself, so that he can do as he wants without interference, but the other dancer just wants to be consulted on the steps and is upset when no request is forthcoming from the party whose onus it's on to make it. In the absence of a demonstrable preparedness to pro-actively seek and then abide by consensus, blocking or granting unilateral restraining orders just won't solve the problem. Nobody owns any given WP article, and if the collective editors of a page (or a category in this case) wants no infoboxes, then the article creator must cede to consensus. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 03:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Question for Andy, Gerda and Nikkimaria

Would Andy and Gerda agree not to add infoboxes to classical music articles, or to any others where they can anticipate that a group of editors already at the article will object? And in return would Nikkimaria agree not to follow Andy's or Gerda's edits, and not to remove infoboxes that they have added? SlimVirgin 01:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a positive approach, however any kind of understanding must cover infobox templates as well as articles. The latter is an area where Andy Mabbett and Gerda Arendt have been extremely active— though not Nikkimaria. --Kleinzach 10:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I have the impression that we leave the original case more and more. What I did in templates was create one for Bach's compositions (within Classical music from the start), making template Musical composition compatible with it (only because Nikkimaria insisted on not using Bach composition for the Mass in B minor), and help with the wanted one for opera. What Andy did I don't know because I don't follow his edits, but I know that he helped with all three. I don't see problems nor would I call it "extremely active". Back to the original case: with Andy not around, I would simply ask Nikkimaria to avoid edits that can be interpreted as stalking. Peace could be rather easy here, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, we're talking about the addition of extra fields to boxes. For example, Template:Infobox musical composition which now has 44 fields (31 of them visible). About half of these were added by you . Are you willing to undertake to stop doing this? That would be a big step forward.Kleinzach 12:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

They were added - as said above - to be compatible with Bach composition when Nikkimaria used this template instead of Bach. (I confess that I was a bit furious when that happened. If such things don't happen again, I will not do it again.) I suggest to continue talking about this very general template (how many fields does Infobox church have?) on the template talk. Back to here, back to my suggestion, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, we all appreciate that you don't edit war, and are willing to discuss infobox issues in a calm way. The problem is that you make changes that affect large numbers of articles, without consulting other editors. Moreover, instead of participating in centralized discussions and respecting their outcomes, you've initiated a whole series of distributed debates, that are repetitive and waste everybody's time. Instead of working on content, we've all been chasing around trying to locate and respond to your latest initiatives. Leaving aside the extensive template changes and just looking at articles, you've started at least five discussions since February: Robert Stoepel on 27 February 2013, Peter Planyavsky on 5 March 2013, Johann Sebastian Bach on 21 March 2013, George Frideric Handel on 25 March 2013, and Richard Wagner on 16 May 2013. Kleinzach 00:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Please look a little closer: 1) Stoepel was in response to a discussion on project:Opera (I DO try to work with projects.) The author installed an infobox. 2) I didn't start a discussion on Peter Planyavsky, I installed an infobox for an article that I had created. (It was promptly reverted.) 3) I started a discussion on Bach, agreed. Some editors said it was too long, and could only be accepted if it contained only a minimum. 4) Trying to learn, I suggested a minimum for Handel. 5) I did NOT start a discussion for Wagner, I followed advice for a solution, see below, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For clarity: In only one case did I insert an infobox in an article: my "own". Please have a look at the Stoepel discussion, that was efficient and encouraging, if you ask me. It was an article I knew well, I had nominated it for DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, All you have to do is follow the links I have given above. In each case you started the discussion. I think it would help you if you can be frank about what happened. --Kleinzach 15:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I was learning. From 1) and 2) I learned that an infobox was possible for a composer, from 3) that my suggestion was too long, from 4) that it was not wanted even short, therefore 5) only talk, no hope to have it in the article, no discussion. Why we still had a discussion, I don't know. - I will not even try Infobox on composer talk again - and said so several times in this thread. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ps: link to another Planyavsky discussion, in case of interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For Andy: "I'll respond to SPhilbrick's questions when I'm able." That goes for other questions as well, please see his talk.

For myself, reply to Slim Virgin: I think my approach (outlined above) covers it, please read. Classical music is against infoboxes for composers. Infoboxes for compositions are used and discussed, an infobox for orchestras was recently developed. I don't think that I EVER added an infobox where I expected a controversy. - Nikkimaria already stopped reverting complete infoboxes (at least mine), but I would appreciate if she would discuss changes rather than making them, see above, diffs of BWV 103, and those are just one example. - My thoughts are more with Andy's health now than with infoboxes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy's health, o come on. Andy is a battle hardned troll, if you cant see that, then I dont know what to say. You surely noticed himslef and jack routinly target editor's pages and go through the same old arguments, bit by bit. And this gang tend to swarm. A nice eg of the MO is . But whatever, keep on going. Ceoil (talk) 08:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have the odd scar myself from locking horns with Andy, but the very prominent banner suddenly posted to the top of his talk page makes me think it would be seemly to put this discussion on hold until he is back in circulation. What is amiss I cannot say, but you don't post banners like that for something minor. Pax? Tim riley (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, what I'm getting at is that, if this goes to ArbCom – and it has been going on for so long that this seems likely – all parties risk being topic-banned from infobox additions or discussions. So the best thing would be for the three of you (or two if it's mostly Andy and Nikki) to get together and agree a compromise position: I'll stop doing X and you stop doing Y. That's infinitely preferable to having ArbCom decide it for you. SlimVirgin 01:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

SV I think this is a sensible suggestion. To begin, I'd like to add to the suggestion that anyone, whether Andy or another editor, cease adding infoboxes as was done here at the time an article is featured on the main page. Editors who curate articles that are featured on the main page have enough to deal with during the stressful days leading up to TFA, (polishing, etc.), and the days after, (clean up, etc.) and should be not subjected to hostile infobox conversations. Thanking our editors for writing featured content would go a long way toward bringing about peace instead of deriding them. My two cents. Victoria (talk) 12:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know that was the last time (August 2012), so the ceasing you ask for seems to have happened already. - News from Andy is that surgery went well but he will not be able to edit for a week. Can this be closed, asking everybody to assume good faith and look forward? Nikkimaria and I had a nice conversation today ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

This is alas not quite far enough if you want to stop storms of this sort. I evidence the state of affiars at Richard Wagner when Gerda 'playfully' inserted a infobox on the article talk page while the article was coming up for front page feature. When I archived the lengthy and futile discussion over this the day before the article was front-paged, (and incidentally was thus enabled to feature Gerda's very nice Wagner DYK box there), Mr.Mabbett stormed in with a assumed fury to agitate about the archiving. This is presently the subject of a complaint elsewhere, as Mr. Mabbett is under a permanent ban from interfering with articles when they are coming up for front-page. So Gerda is perfectly aware that the 'ceasing' has not taken place (at the very least in spirit, although I note Mr. Mabbett quibbles about the details). Mr.Mabbett's surgery - and of course I wish the man good health - does not somehow restore the GF which many of us have alas found it impossible, from bitter experience, to assume in his case. It is because Mr. Mabbett and some of those in his train play these silly games that time which could be spent on editing is spent on mutual masturbation (oops - did I say that?) of this sort. I don't exempt myself totally for being such a prat as to rise to their provocations, but occasionally even an equable soul like myself feels the need to try to draw a line.--Smerus (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• September 2012, same thing here, and February 2013, another instance. I keep a very small watchlist and so am only showing the instances of which I'm aware. We lost a very good and productive editor because the September event. I have to ask, why? Victoria (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Same thing"? - The "Pilgrim"-Infobox was not added on TFA day but later, Little Moreton Hall HAD an infobox, only "invisible". It has a visible collapsed infobox now. Some editors learn, - I miss George, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Gerda, just to clarify - I posted here in response to a very sensible suggestion SlimVirgin made and I added a concrete example using the words "the days before and the days after TFA" with the suggestion that perhaps that behavior should cease. As SV said "I'll stop doing X and you'll stop doing Y" - my example can be seen as X. This has now degenerated into a "that didn't happen", "that's ceased", "that doesn't happen anymore" when in fact three more examples have been presented. SV is quite right in saying that it's better to hash it out rather than having it go to Arbom, but we'll never get anywhere if it always degenerates in this fashion. I'll step out now; I was simply seconding SV's suggestion. Victoria (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• (ec) Cease is not stop, right? - Putting something on a talk page a week or so before TFA, explicitly stating that it was not to be considered for the article but the talk, is not the same as on the article on TFA day, right. (And I will not do even do that again.) When the talk was archived Andy complained that it was in the way of automatic archiving, - was that "stormed in with a assumed fury to agitate about the archiving"? - That's what I am aware of, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, do not misrepresent! - and do not imply that I interfered with an auto-archive. The page had always been manually archived, until Mr. Mabbett in his self-righteousness unilaterally (without any discussion) converted it to auto-archiving. This is all evident in the page history. I had no wish on the day of the article being front-paged to start another futile argument thread, so left it alone. When issues which I raise are turned into implicit accusations against myself, I detect that the spirit of the master temporarily in exile has found a worthy inheritor.--Smerus (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the details of the dispute, so I don't know all the loopholes, but the best way forward is for everyone relying on a loophole to stop that way of thinking (e.g. I didn't add one, I just made an invisible one visible). The best situation would be if Gerda and Andy would agree not to add infoboxes to pages they didn't create or weren't in the process of significantly improving, and none to pages where they know editors will object (e.g. composers); and if Nikki would agree not to remove any, and not to look at Andy's contribs anymore. If someone does add an infobox and others disagree, open an RfC on the talk page, let it run for 30 days, have an uninvolved editor close it, and stick to the outcome.

Ask yourselves whether you want to go through an ArbCom case about this, and if not make every effort to avoid it. SlimVirgin 03:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Since February, we have had at least 16 classical music-related infobox debates/discussions, plus an unknown number relating to architecture, visual arts etc. Anything that can bring this to an end will be welcome, even an ArbCom case. --Kleinzach 09:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that a lot of time was wasted. Did you count Richard Wagner? No discussion was needed, the infobox could just have stayed on the talk as proposed by me, following advice by Newyorkbrad and Nikkimaria as a possible solution when an infobox is not wanted in the article. I thought that was a good solution, but if you are so strongly against it, I will not do that again. I don't have to stop adding one to a composer someone else created, because I never did that (as far as I remember). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ps: for those who don't look at that discussion (but it's enlightening, promised), here is the link to the advice mentioned (which was removed in the meantime): Place infoboxes on article talk instead of article where their inclusion is disputed (per NYB) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda: So are you willing to stop doing this? That would be positive. Kleinzach 06:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I stopped with Wagner, - that one experience of a "discussion" was enough for life, remember? See also Tristan, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Bach cantatas are among my key areas of expertise, although I hardly ever visit the articles in that topic. I have to side with Slim et al. here: those articles are far better off without an infobox. I have a bunch of reasons. Let me know if you want me to list them. Tony (talk) 02:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• It might be helpful to list the reasons, Tony, if you have time. SlimVirgin 02:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yes; but I expressed these reasons—or something like them—at infobox discussions some time ago, so I'm not sure I'm adding anything new. I'm not per se against infoboxes in every situation, but for articles on complex-music composers and their works they add nothing and risk detracting from the articles. They present packaged and stripped-down information that is often not useful and is sometimes misleading outside a larger context ("Related" in the Mass in B minor box, for example). They can't help but repeat information that is or should be treated in proper context and detail in the main text. Why repeat it? Who is going to flip from one article to the next just to read the infobox info? We shouldn't encourage superficial reading, if the motivation exists for it (which I doubt for readers of these topics). They sacrifice what would often be an opportunity for an image right at the top, larger than can reasonably fit into an infobox. And I find the meta-data argument most uncompelling, I have to say. Infoboxes might be tolerable for pop-music articles and pop-bios, but not for complex-music topics, where greater reading motivation can be assumed. Tony (talk) 09:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

• Tony, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Would you mind having this discussion at a more appropriate venue, for example project Classical music, where these infoboxes were discussed before introduction, or the template talk of {{infobox Bach composition}}. Please don't miss the Wikipedias de-fr-nn, where every Bach cantata has an infobox, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
• Thanks for explaining, Tony. SlimVirgin 00:56, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

• There's an unfortunate tendency to cram the infoboxes with unexplained stuff even in pop music articles. Look at Metallica (FA) for example. What is the giant list of "Associated acts" in the infobox telling you? 86.121.18.17 (talk) 20:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Wagner for example

I am all interested in a good way forward. The past is shown here in a nutshell: "I am entirely against having a infobox for this article. Wagner's life and music is a very complex topic and I am certain that an infobox would damage the article by giving inappropriate or highly debatable prominence to some aspects, and/or by under-reporting other aspects. Moreover, Gerda, as you know, the whole issue of infoboxes is extremely ontroversial and the overwhelming opinion of editors on the Opera, Wagner, and Classical Music Projects is against having them.--Smerus (talk) 15:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)" (quoted from the FAC in which I was involved)

When I read that I had an infobox ready in a sandbox. I put it on the talk (!) stating that it was not meant to be included in the article. There still was a discussion that would better be archived. I did not mind the manual archiving at all, please see.

I will have to understand how an infobox would damage the article but simply accept that view. I don't add infoboxes to articles (!) where I expect controversy, - as far as I remember I never did that, so I can easily agree to the request just above. - I just added one more item to the Wagner "DYK" collection, feel free to take it to the Wagner talk, Smerus ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I suppose I wonder why, if an infobox is known to be controversial, it has to be placed on the talk page, rather than not introduced at all. Can you agree not to add infoboxes to articles (or talk pages) where you know it is going to cause a problem? If you would agree to that, that would be a start. If Andy will agree too, and if Nikki will agree not to remove them and not to follow Andy's or Gerda's contribs, the dispute will be over. SlimVirgin 01:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I support the above modest proposal 100%.--Smerus (talk) 08:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda's part:

• The infobox didn't "have to be placed". It WAS placed because I saw the recommendation, as part of a solution (!): Place infoboxes on article talk instead of article where their inclusion is disputed (per NYB)". This link preceded the infobox on the talk, - not everybody saw that, if you belong to those please take another look. I said above that I will not do that again even if I don't understand why an infobox sitting quietly on a talk page would cause ANY problem, or how any infobox would "damage" an article.
• Nikkimaria: I ask you formally to keep following my edits, - I need help with English and formalities. Just please don't revert a complete infobox with an edit summary I may not understand, and consider to have mercy when I ask for it (it wasn't often).
• Andy: he can't contribute at the moment nor for days to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, the possibility of placing infoboxes was not a 'recommendation', it was a 'thinking-out-of-the-box' suggestion for consideration by Nikkimaria, which indeed the latter subsequently withdrew. It had no endorsements or I think even comments by any other editors or Misplaced Pages fora. You were perfectly aware that the Wagner article was coming up for front-page featuring, and you were perfectly aware of the feelings of myself and other editors about info-boxes for the article; indeed as you mention you participated in the FA discussion, and you also participated in the TFA discussion. I am aware of the significant contributions you have made in many Misplaced Pages articles, which I unreservedly acknowledge, and thus I would never have credited that you had the naivety not to imagine or foresee that posting an infobox on the Wagner talk page, especially at this time, without prior discussion, would provoke animated debate; and moreover to realise that such discussion would inevitably bring in the causeurs who feed on such issues, whether or not they have any interst or contribution to make to the articles concerned. Clearly, I must accept your word that you had never anticipated this; but I am sure you have learnt from the experience. Best, --Smerus (talk) 10:10, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Smerus, thanks for thoughts and feelings, - Fact: It was not Nikkimaria's thinking, she quoted Newyorkbrad, another respected user. - I will try to learn to anticipate feelings better, and there will be no next time, as said twice above. Thank you for a constructive GA review, I enjoy collaboration here, especially with you "after Wagner"! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Redux

I don't know whether this discussion is worth continuing. Whether Gerda is agreeing isn't clear to me, Nikkimaria sees the issue as mainly one for Andy to respond to (see discussion here), and Andy hasn't been posting, although he did email Wikimedia-l today so he may be back soon. Perhaps we should wait for his return. SlimVirgin 01:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Can we ask Gerda, Nikkimaria and Andy Mabbett to make statements in turn, clarifying whether they will (1) stop edit warring (e.g. by observing WP:1RR), (2) stop provoking other editors by adding or removing infoboxes against local consensus, (3) respect the results of past and future centralized discussions on boxes, and (4) agree not to radically alter or develop boxes that have already been created by compromise and consensus (typically at the project level).

If we do have satisfactory undertakings from all three, I suggest we end this here — if not, the alternative to be topic bans. Kleinzach 01:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I received an email from Andy yesterday saying that it will be at least five more days until he may edit again, and my personal impression is that he should take it easy, no pressure, after recovery.

My statements are above, repeating:

I didn't edit war and don't plan to do so. (1)

I will not add infoboxes to articles where I expect conflict. (2, 3)

To please editors, I will not even add an infobox to the talk page of an article where I expect conflict, although I still don't understand what can be wrong about an infobox on a talk page. (2, 3)

I don't understand (4), and certainly not what it has to do with this discussion. (I once expanded an infobox to make it compatible with another one that another editor chose to use it instead of the suitable one, - is that what you call "radically alter"?)

I ask Nikkimaria to follow my edits to improve English and formatting, but please not revert an infobox without prior discussion.

From Andy's last email: he invites (uninvolved) admins to follow his edits, as SandyGeorgia suggested here. That should solve 1–4.

May I remind that this was a initiative about stalking, not topics, and I question whose satisfaction should be established in a conclusion? I thought this was over and could be archived. I vaguely remember that I was told "Be bold" when I started editing the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:19, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Someone needs to write WP:STALEMATE. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 02:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I see a request by Kleinzach on Gerda's page to post here, why do I not see such a request on Nikki's page? If it's there and I've missed it, sorry, but I'm not seeing it. PumpkinSky talk 12:37, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. I got distracted Just as I was about to post something to Nikkimaria. I will do it now. Thanks for the reminder. --Kleinzach 13:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC) Done Kleinzach 13:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I think Kleinzach's suggested solution would work for this dispute, assuming Andy is amenable. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I think a statement from you would be positive, just as Gerda's one (above) at least moves us in the right direction. Whether Andy Mabbett is 'amenable' or not is up to him — other editors can draw their own conclusions based what he says when he gets back to WP. --Kleinzach 01:08, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The section started below is off topic or at least off process. We are here to stop the edit warring, not to start it up again. It isn't helping. May we collapse it? --Kleinzach 22:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC) Too late. WP:NOTSOAPBOX should apply, but the self-fulfilling Ugly actions by a number of intractable parties already has lift off. Kleinzach 01:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Ugly actions by a number of intractable parties

As some here will recall, a number of weeks ago I made a drive-by comment on the talk page J.S. Bach talk page regarding what I consider to be the inevitability of infoboxes on classical music articles. Profanity was used in the reply by one of the anti-infobox parties, which to my mind is about as unwelcoming a response to a first-time editor in a particular article as I can recall in a half-decade of being a Wikipedian, so I brought my very first case to ANI. The anti-infobox clique fended off meaningful sanctions, so I put several pages on my watchlist and took a step back.

I continue to feel there is a serious problem with the anti-infobox people, who insist on having their way and employ a number of, to my thinking, questionable methods to ensure that that happens. Indeed, in the reason this matter is again at ANI, an admin is stalking an editor; this means User:Nikkimaria creates a deliberate chilling effect. It was pointed out earlier in this thread that admin Nikkimaria has been blocked by other admins, and I will point out most recently in the service of the anti-infobox goal at Sparrow Mass. where a infobox deletion was disingenuously labeled "clean-up" in an edit summary. This is one unacceptable example of the sort of thing that will most likely continue until the community gets to the "sick of it" stage, which I hope we have reached.

I suggest strong action against Nikkimaria - This administrator has been blocked several times for edit warring. I include consideration of de-adminship. It is clear to me something must be done in this case. I do not buy the "But they didn't abuse the tools" argument because an admin wields power and must be squeaky clean in their actions.

I suggest a strong warning for Andy - He is hardly blameless either, but is not culpable to the effect NM is.

A Misplaced Pages-wide Rfc on infoboxes. This grinding infobox debate will continue to be an endless bone of contention until the root cause is addressed. Let the entire Misplaced Pages community decide if infoboxes are ok for every appropriate article, not just a small number of editors with a rigid agenda. If an Rfc doesn't solve the issue, then the last resort will have to be ArbCom. Let's make a dedicated push to get this nagging problem over with, and move on to more worthy pursuits. Jusdafax 11:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I have the obvious social handicap as far as User:Jusdafax is concerned of not being partial to infoboxes; but is it that alone which prevents me from comprehending the logically consequential link between his first two proposals and the third? As a Jew I'm not entirely unfamiliar with being classed as a member of an evil minority determined to destabilize the universe; now I find I'm the member of another similar 'clique'. Perhaps User:Jusdafax can tell me where I can find psychiatric help; or is it just, as Richard Wagner advises, that I need to seek Untergang? We seem to be dealing here with a classic case, on User:Jusdafax's part, of the declension: 'I have principles; you have obsessions; they are an anti-social conspiracy'. I don't disagree that in principle both Nikkimaria and Mr. Mabbett should receive some raps; but User:Jusdafax's pompous and portentous heading 'Ugly actions by a number of intractable parties' seems to indicate that his scope is not focussed on the issue here, and that his conclusions may not be entirely dispassionate. Worriedly, --Smerus (talk) 12:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"Pompous and portentous." Attack the messenger when you don't want the actual issues addressed... all too predictable. Perhaps we could have some commentary here from those a bit less involved than Smerus, who in my view is in clear violation of WP:NPA in the service of his agenda. For the record: I have created a very modest article on a bit of classical music, Le Pas d'acier. Notice there is no info box. I don't give a fig either way, you see, and attempts to paint me as partisan are merely a smear, which I strongly resent. What we need to do is fix the problems I have outlined, not indulge in "clever" attempts to change the subject. See how this matter is being gamed, folks? Jusdafax 13:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaming - an interesting allegation. This thread started because a big boy accused a big girl of bullying. Neither of the two are strangers to knockabout stuff on Misplaced Pages. And I find it difficult to believe that either suffered sleepless nights because of this discussion. But User:Jusdafax says that the outcome must include a WP wide debate on infoboxes. Gaming? Changing the subject? - As Schopenhauer says somewhere, when we blame others, we are blaming ourselves. The extent to which I am 'involved': I have made it clear here as elsewhere that I don't like infoboxes. I have never deleted an infobox. I do not want yet another debate on infoboxes as a whole because: 1) if it comes to a resolution either one way or the other, it will drive away from WP a substantial body of experienced editors and 2) if it comes, as in the past, to no decision, then a lot of hot air and time will have been wasted. There are better things to do in life. We can live with this sort of trivial knockabout stuff, if it's the price we have to pay for keeping everyone on board. Best, --Smerus (talk) 14:22, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"Attack the messenger when you don't want the actual issues addressed... all too predictable." User:Smerus wrote, "pompous and portentous heading". That's not a personal attack; it's a description of a heading. "Ugly actions by a number of intractable parties" and "The anti-infobox clique" are closer to personal attacks, although I wouldn't classify them as such either. Get real. Toccata quarta (talk) 03:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

As in the former case, I think no actions are required. I like to work "amicably" with all editors involved (thank you for the phrase, Smerus!), and I do (thank you, Smerus and Nikkimaria). Putting people in a "clique" or "gang" does not help. I can speak only for myself: I am nobodies follower here, the spirit is my own. If someone can explain to me why putting an infobox on a talk page with the intention to keep it there is a "digression", they are welcome. Talk pages are for talk, there's "freedom of speech", right? - I think this whole thread can be closed. Andy, who wanted satisfaction, cannot edit, those who want different satisfaction can start a thread of their own. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

My dear Gerda, in my view the answer to your question is a simple one. It's about power: the power to tell others what to do. Heaven forbid editors should ever have to contemplate one of your infoboxes on even a talk page, oh, how defiant of right-thinking! Someone might get the idea that an infobox could just be an asset to those casual readers interested in classical music, and copy and paste one elsewhere. No, you must be condemned and attacked as "disruptive" and the offending infobox cleansed away by rapid archiving or outraged removal, and various semi-threats made to silence anyone pointing out inconvenient facts. I have seen cliques before in my years here, but this one takes the cake. Or as a warning to me back in April goes on my talkpage (with apologies to the editor who wrote it, for my reposting it here): It looks like you messed with the Classical Music wikiproject. This insular group of editors has stonewalled the infobox issue for years against many users' objections and has fought to control the debate through canvassing, cementing it within their own nonbinding policy, and generally bullying those who disagree with them. If you keep it up they may even try to ban you from discussing the issue, as they have tried with Pigsonthewing in the past. Good luck dealing with them! I say again: I really don't care that much about the short term outcome on infoboxes on classical music articles, as I am an eventualist and believe it all will get right over time, seeing as the vast majority of Misplaced Pages articles have infoboxes. What offends me is the rampant Wiki-bullying on display here, mostly by the anti-infobox faction who I deem morally bankrupt because of the way they try to push people around. It would be so much easier to walk away from this absurd mess and not deal with any of it, but the fact is that this no-infobox mess is an ugly boil on Misplaced Pages that is demonstrably driving away good editors, as you have seen. Again, power-mongering is the core of the problem here, exemplified by an admin, User:Nikkimaria who follows Andy around the 'pedia, but also others who I believe exhibit a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality towards Andy, and you, and now me for daring to stand up to them. What kind of an online encyclopedia are we to be? That's the deeper question here, and the attempts above to inject ethnicity, crypto-threats like "interesting allegation" etc, etc. are merely transparent devices to shame and blame. Conduct a well-publicized Wiki-wide Rfc on infoboxes. Nothing else directly attacks the root cause of this deeply unpleasant and ultimately absurd ongoing issue, although the alternative is to just file a case at ArbCom and see if that body cares to pour through years of edits to discern the long-term pattern, which I contend would reveal a breathtaking architecture of outright abuse. To do nothing just kicks the can down the road until finally a reckoning comes. Jusdafax 18:42, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"It looks like you messed with the Classical Music wikiproject. This insular group of editors has stonewalled the infobox issue for years against many users' objections and has fought to control the debate through canvassing, cementing it within their own nonbinding policy, and generally bullying those who disagree with them. If you keep it up they may even try to ban you from discussing the issue, as they have tried with Pigsonthewing in the past. Good luck dealing with them!" There goes a "wall" of personal attacks and straw men (which you did not write, but apparently approve of). I notice that you have made the "bullying" accusation again; when you previously accused me of bullying, you weren't even capable of producing any evidence for your claim.

Editors may also like to note another straw man in the quote above: you omit to mention the fact that we have arguments: "has fought to control the debate through canvassing, cementing it within their own nonbinding policy, and generally bullying those who disagree with them. " Toccata quarta (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

A number of stalemates that were probably similar have been documented in guidelines, for example WP:CITEVAR or WP:SHE4SHIPS. I see the MOS lead itself has the catch-all provision "If discussion cannot determine which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor." 86.121.18.17 (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

As a long-term observer largely uninvolved with the issue (all but one of my peer-reviewed articles, IIRC, has an infobox, and I have no particular interest in classical music), I think your assessment is almost completely wrongheaded, Jusdafax. The current state of play for infoboxes, which I think is largely reflected in policy (and would probably be borne out in an RfC) is that they are appropriate for some, indeed, most articles; inappropriate for a very few; and that there is some gray area of articles in between for which an infobox may or may not be appropriate. The provisions about forming consensus on an article-by-article basis and so forth are intended to encourage rational discussion and consensus formation among interested editors. Of course, the "problem" with that approach is that editors might decide *not* to have an infobox on a given article, which for Pigsonthewing is an unacceptable outcome. He, with the occasional aid and support of other technically-inclined editors, has spent years filibustering these "gray area" articles to try to prevent discussions from reaching the no-infobox answer. (One of the more ingenious tactics that I recall was to show up at an article, declare that the author's opinion could be discounted because of WP:OWN, that of WikiProject participants could be discounted because of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, and that as the last person left standing, his opinion determined consensus and the article should have an infobox.) This insistence on shoving infoboxes into articles where they aren't generally desired, to demonstrate that no editor or group of editors can block them, earned him a topic ban last year.

This is not a new phenomenon. He was banned for a year by ArbCom in 2007 for abusive conduct, largely surrounding his attempts to...force infoboxes onto articles about opera and composers! SIX. YEARS. Trying to make these WikiProject kiss his ring and accept that he could force an infobox into any article he chose, regardless of their arguments. Frankly, looking over the behavior complained of in that ArbCom case (not only music infoboxes, but the use of coord templates) and seeing that he's largely recapitulated it within the past year, it's a wonder he's escaped more serious sanctions.

Now, all that said, I am concerned about some of the actions on the other side, more so as regards interference with Gerda's use of infoboxes in her articles than any response to Pigsonthewing. But the major "chilling effect" here has been that created by his behavior, which regards good-faith discussion and compromise by other parties as way stations to getting his way in its entirety. Deal with that problem, and you'll go a long way towards clearing the unpleasant atmosphere in this area. Choess (talk) 06:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Andy's behaviour results in a chilling effect. There would have to be demonstration of some obvious trend not to participate for fear of reprisal for that to be the case. What reprisal is supposed? The worst that happens is a talk page thread, and the occasional reinstatement of an infobox that is invariably summarily removed again the next time one of the bloc happens to chance upon it. It's unfortunate that certain WikiProjects take such umbrage with occasionally being asked to actually explain themselves to outsiders (and no, "we decided this a long time ago, and we worked hard on these articles, and you're hurting our fee-fees" is not an explanation), but there's plainly only one party here who genuinely has to worry about reprisal (including but not limited to flagrant personal attacks, hounding and general degradation on any soapbox that's handy, along with being threatened with a new topic ban every other day). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Advice from my daughter

My daughter visited for father's day, and we went for a walk. We talked about a number of things, but I asked her for advice on a Misplaced Pages issue. I couldn't give her all the background—we were only out for two hours, but I covered the basics, including BRD, and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. When I mentioned that Andy had documented 22 cases where his edit was reverted, but only three edits were followed by a post to the talk page, and none included a response by Nikkimaria, she suggested that we tell each party that they should be using the talk page to reach consensus. If one does regularly, and the other does not, we will be able to identify the problematic editor. My initial instincts were to suggest that this was too simple, but now I'm wondering why. While I won't pretend it will make the entire problem go away, it seems like a reasonable request. Does anyone disagree?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The situation has been clearly explained, but it's difficult to see unless you have participated in one of the punch-ups on the talk page of a contested article. The problem is that people who are unwilling or unable to make useful contributions to a serious encyclopedic article on a composer nevertheless feel an urge to add an infobox. Since everyone is equal, the view of an editor new to an article is just as valid as that of the editors who created and maintain the article—in fact the outsider's view is more valid because the creators and maintainers are just violators of WP:OWN who do not understand the policy that all articles must comply with technical standards. I have seen a couple of the discussions and they are extremely unhelpful because editors are human, and they don't like being pushed around by people with an agenda—good editors become frustrated and stop editing. It only takes a moment for someone to add an infobox, and there are lots of people who like to do things like that, and then the editors who build the content have to spend another six hours in pointless back-and-forth. There is no good solution to a problem like this because the infobox adders can rely on relentless pressure to win (there are more of them than there are content builders), and those on the other side can only grind their teeth. One not-good solution would be to have the ultimate RfC to decide whether it is mandatory for every article to have an infobox. If yes, add them. If no, block those who persist past 1RR. Johnuniq (talk) 23:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Sphilbrick: Yes, in fact, I do disagree. The editors involved have been drowning one by one in these discussions. Here is a list of music-related box infobox discussions since February:

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (ANI)

• Bullying and ownership concerns at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach and Sparrow Mass over the use of infoboxes Report by Jusdafax, 2 April 2013
• Persistent edit stalking Report by Andy Mabbett, 5 June 2013 against Nikkimaria.

User pages

• User:Ched/RfC - Infobox and User talk:Ched/RfC - Infobox Rfc plan started by Ched, 5 April 2013

Classical Music Project

• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Orchestra_infobox:_proposal new box proposed by Kleinzach, 16 March 2013 (see also Template talk:Infobox orchestra)
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Abbreviations_in_infoboxes by Kleinzach, 23 April 2013

Composition articles

• Talk:Sparrow Mass Infobox discussion started by RexxS, 30 March 2013.
• Talk:The Rite of Spring Infobox discussion started by Andy Mabbett, 30 May 2013.
• Talk:Ihr werdet weinen und heulen, BWV 103 Infobox discussion started by Nikkimaria 27 May

Composer articles

• Talk:Robert_Stoepel#Infobox_proposal infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 27 February 2013
• Talk:Enrique_Granados#Infobox_on_this_article: discussion started by Kleinzach, 4 March 2013
• Talk:Peter_Planyavsky#Infobox discussion started by Gerda Arendt, 5 March 2013
• Talk:Johann_Sebastian_Bach#Infobox_proposal infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 21 March 2013
• Talk:George_Frideric_Handel#Mini-infobox infobox proposal by Gerda Arendt, 25 March 2013
• Talk:Richard_Wagner#No_infobox ‘no infobox’ proposal by Gerda Arendt, 16 May 2013

MOS

• Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes/Archive_7#Collapsed_or_hidden_infoboxes protest against collapsing infoboxes started by Andy Mabbett, 6 March 2013

Templates for deletion (TFD)

• Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_March_15#Template:Collapsed_infobox_section_begin now closed as keep. nomination by Andy Mabbett 15 March 2013
• Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_5#Template:Infobox_Bruckner_symphony proposed by Andy Mabbett 5 June 2013
• Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_5#Template:Infobox_musical_work proposed by Andy Mabbett 5 June 2013

IMO a one revert rule-based approach would be more practical. Of course, we can have talk page discussions when necessary, but not used as an attrition tactic to wear out the music editors. Kleinzach 02:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• @ Sphilbrick: as regards the issue of this thread, yes, your daughter's proposal is of course highly relevant. (What a way to spend Father's Day!). I don't myself see the point or relevance of pursuing the infobox theme further under this discussion.--Smerus (talk) 05:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• The issue of this thread - a little reminder - is NOT the infobox. I invite everybody to look at the (18?) linked discussions. The cantata BWV 103: The discussion was constructive, the infobox improved, Smerus reviewed the article and approved as it GA: peace can be so simple if we respect each other and talk instead of revert, - that seems to be daughter's advice. For those who still think this thread is about infobox: project opera introduced their optional use for operas yesterday, the template {{infobox opera}} was developed with Andy's great help and has a cute example, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Kleinzach for those links. While I am aware that the infobox wars have been contentious, I haven't read all of the background, and that is a useful resource when it comes time to revisit the infobox question. However, that's not why we are here. As Gerda pointed out, the issue in this thread is not infoboxes, nor even the broader problems as pointed out by Johnuniq. The issue is that Andy alleges he was being stalked, and wants to know what the community plans to do about that. Andy points to 22 instances where edits of his were reverted, but the evidence is that neither he nor Nikkimaria followed up as required by accepted community practice in almost all of the cases. I am a firm believer that the community ought to address the underlying issues (but not here) as we ought to be resolving the policy questions, not just papering over the symptoms. However our narrow remit at the moment is to determine whether Andy's claims have merit, and if so what response is appropriate. My view is that, in view of the failure of both parties to follow accepted community protocols, there's nothing to be done here. I do appreciate that much virtual ink has been spilled over the underlying questions in other places, but the burden is on Andy to provide the evidence to support the claim, and I find the claim wanting. I think it is time to close this thread.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I feel the strong need to emphasize again that, for an admin with a checkered past who is clearly subject to WP:INVOLVED, it is not ok to stalk Andy's edits, no matter how much he has blundered in the past. That's the immediate core problem here (aside from the overriding infobox stuff), and to do nothing just means more time wasted down the road. Fix this now, please. Jusdafax 06:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:INVOLVED is not relevant in this situation because INVOLVED concerns an involved admin using, or proposing to use, administrative tools. The actual problem is that a small team of technical editors are unnecessarily disrupting content builders—that is the problem which should be fixed. Johnuniq (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Day by day I hop this thread will archive. "The problem" in it is NOT the infobox, NOT "technical editors are unnecessarily disrupting content builders", - the problem is that one editor feels stalked by another, and I of all people certainly know how that feels. With other problems, go to other threads. 18 discussions have been listed above as "drowning" content work, please look yourself if that is true, I don't see it. Show me one of those where an infobox was added to an article in a way that could be called "disruptive". Perhaps check your premises. Are you aware that Andy can't even edit, while Nikkimaria keeps reverting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Each of the two links at "keeps reverting" points to a discussion about an infobox. I have only dipped my toes into this dispute (and that was perhaps six months ago) and have no particular passion for either side, but the situation is clear: some editors LIKE infoboxes, and LIKE putting facts into them, while other editors DONTLIKE infoboxes and DONTLIKE what they regard as superfluous facts. This ANI report was started by an editor who regards someone checking his edits as stalking, but it's not possible for anything short of a three-month arbcom case to decide whether editor A (who is known to have been enthusiastically promoting infoboxes literally for years) is more or less at fault than editor B (who is known to have been enthusiastically resisting the promotion of infoboxes). Johnuniq (talk) 23:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Blocked editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This ia a case of where the user, originally as User talk:202.43.188.6 ‎ has WP:PA another editor in editing the article Suharto with little or no explanation as to why, has been blocked for edit warring, , the article was also edit protected (expires 11:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)) ‎ (expires 11:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)) ‎(Persistent vandalism)] and the editor is now wandering around the various scenes of the crime with a sock (duck tested not needed, so obvious) User:Purnomor as if his/her version is the 'right way' to edit the article , and that normal protocols of wikipedian editing or behaviour can be totally ignored.

Seasoned editors of the Indonesian project had tried over time to reduce the size of the article, and have had similar issues with very similar editors - if it isnt the same editor as previous attempts on changing the article. It is highly likely that the language of the editor is not native english, which might have created some of the total reversals of the actual situation in the editors attempts to deal with the issues so far.

It seems the protection of the article encouraged this editor to do and also almost surreal comments at .

Also re-tracing steps at Page protection - with comments in odd locations

If there is indeed someone prepared to look at this, please be careful not to be misled as to who it doing what, a careful examination of edit history should explain the issue.

I suspect such an intrepid and incessant candidate for totally reversing the actual issue, might be a somewhat difficult character to hold a mirror to, in explanation. sats 15:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I have appealed against the tyranny of editors who seems to insist that their way of editing is the only right way, and always seek to undo the hardwork and research done by others. This attitude is certainly very negative and will discourage others from positively contributing to Misplaced Pages. The editors show contempt and disrespect for contribution made by volunteer editor using well-balance reference articles. Hence, I've made formal complaint against this particular editor (Merbabu). Purnomor (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Which I think goes to show what we are dealing with here. A limited of understanding what WP:ABOUT actually involves. sats 15:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

So with the IP number blocked, and the new sock created - It is my understanding that a sock of a blocked editor cannot launch http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/merbabu - as it would in effect be allowing a blocked editor to continue WP:PA unabated. I believe other remedies for the IP and the user need to be rectified beforer further damage to other processes within wp en ensue. sats 15:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I will not be silenced on this issue. I also do not accept constant undoing and vandalization of valuable hardwork based on solid references done by certain editors. I also object to the constant personal attacks used by some editors to intimidate people attempting to add valuable information into Misplaced Pages. Purnomor (talk) 15:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Puronomor, you should sign your posts at the end of each post, not at the beginning. It is obvious that the IP who was editing the Suharto article and Purnomor are the same individual. However, in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with an IP deciding to register an account and stop editing as an IP. The article itself is semi-protected, meaning that Puronomor cannot edit the article as he's not yet auto-confirmed. That said, his brief history here has been disruptive. He has asked that the Suharto article be unprotected. He has started an abusrd RFC/U against User:Merbabu, in addition to posting at WP:AIV that Merbabu is vandalizing the article. He has also contacted User:Crisco 1492 and complained. He should probably be blocked for disruptive editing, which any admin is welcome to do, but I'll give him a little more rope to see if he has the ability to change course.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

PantherLeapord, again.

PantherLeapord (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is continuing to show conduct that I have concerns about, such as an aggressive stance on several NFCC 1-related discussions. He has also publicly accused several editors (such as me and Masem) of being "deletionists", and listed them on his user page; which I had removed for being an attack page. After being warned of this policy, he then refactored the warning given on his page to say "Please do not create pages that show the truth about their subject. These pages and files are not tolerated by the people having the truth revealed about them." (in violation of the talk page guidelines). He also removed further comments clarifying the rules on refactoring talk page comments with increasingly aggressive remarks ("Is this YOUR talk page now" "EXCUSE ME!? AFAIK I AM ALLOWED TO DELETE SUCH COMMENTS ON MY OWN TALK PAGE" "Again; WHO'S talk page is this!?" "Stop harassing me about removing comments from MY talk page")

He was blocked for edit warring an image out of Xbox One that he felt was of a poor quality (and then began campaigning to have a non-free image restored because his interpretation of NFCC 1 does not consider the free image to be of good enough quality), on the condition that he stop edit warring over PlayStation and Xbox images. I don't think any of the things he's done today are worthy of blocks, but I'm becoming concerned about his conduct. ViperSnake151  Talk  06:31, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do you insist on making a mountain out of a molehill? PantherLeapord (talk) 06:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

This was not a molehill. As has been explained in a statement that you deleted with no apparent effort to read and understand it, if you repeat an edit like that, you will be blocked again. I'm unlikely to repeat the last go round where you were unblocked after a few hours, as your behaviour since your last block has been pretty abysmal, including using your user page as an attack page.—Kww(talk) 07:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Well pardon me for pointing out how stupidly powerful free content purists that always prefer worse content that is DETRIMENTAL to the encyclopedia because free have become! PantherLeapord (talk) 08:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If you continue to fail to understand that the exception to using non-free content is when suitable (note: I did not say high-quality) content is available, AND your attitude is going to be one where you create attack pages to disparage those who actually uphold the law, the rules, and policies, then I do not foresee your username appearing on Misplaced Pages for much longer. Do it again - ever - and you will be blocked, period (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that if you're going to express your opposition to our non-free policies, it is probably best to (a) dial back the attacks on people with different opinions, and (b) perhaps choose an issue to debate which isn't actually cut and dried - the PS4 image issue was absolutely straightforward as regarding our policies and not even close to a grey area. People are far more likely to engage with you if you make your points in a reasoned manner. Black Kite (talk) 10:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

No; the only problem here is how free image purists have brainwashed people into thinking that fair use is bad and the crappy and unencyclopedic free > encyclopedic fair use. PantherLeapord (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Your level of cluefullness < 0 ... you have not read a single fricking thing that has been presented to you? You can't make your own shit up - especially regarding copyright and fair use. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I think claiming that anyone on a project that contains many dozens of thousands of non-free images - most (if by no means all) of which actually do meet WP:NFCC - is a "free image purist" is never going to fly. Black Kite (talk) 12:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

~473k non-free files exist on wikipedia. Werieth (talk) 13:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, it looks like everyone sees what's going on pretty clearly, but just to chime in: this user has been rather difficult to work with. There's no discussing policy with them, every time its "I want to use this image, so IAR!" And every time they're told "No, that's not how it works", then we get an earful about "power hungry admin", "conspiracy", etc etc. Its one continuous example of WP:IDHT. Sergecross73 msg me 12:49, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• Suggest topic ban from NFCC and related areas since this user refuses to get a clue, is extremely hostile, combative, and rude. Werieth (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• I support that, but will note that I am "involved"- I have been discussing non-free content issues with this user this morning, and I am one of the people listed on the deleted userpage. J Milburn (talk) 13:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• I think that a very clear warning that such a topic ban will be imposed if the behaviour continues would be better at this stage. A very last chance, but leaving no doubt as to what the next step will be. That'll probably still mean we are a bunch of brainwashing dictators, but at least we will have offered every possible opportunity for change before sanctions. I know, I'm an old softy... Begoon  14:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Can we add IMMEDIATELY that ANY referring to an editor or group of editors as "deletionists" lead to immediate block? This guy is quite clearly creating a WP:BATTLE by his sheer forceful lack of competence and compassion for the community (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:04, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If we were to apply that as a criteria, Dream Focus would have been banned ages ago. For better or worse, we've legitimized the use of that term by not acting on it in the past.—Kww(talk) 16:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, that's a very good point. But regardless of the use of that term or not, WP:BATTLE is the crux, and that's what mustn't be allowed to continue. Competence can sometimes be learnt or taught, battling with other editors is a style choice. Begoon  17:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Personally, being called a "deletionist" as a pejorative merely elicits a "yeah, whatever" from me and an assumption that the person using it isn't capable of creating a policy-based argument; however the major problem here is incorrectly accusing other editors of being detrimental to the encyclopedia, which definitely is a personal attack. That needs to stop. As I said above, it isn't constructive and will result in editors not engaging with even any reasonable points one makes. Black Kite (talk) 18:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

As on involved presently and in past issued with DF, at least DF argues the point for decent debate, which is the core of consensus building, even if DF refuses to budge. On the other hand, PantherLeopard is making no attempt to understand the rational of non-free and thus making any chance of debate nil. --MASEM (t) 22:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• Still going - . Black Kite (talk) 23:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. That kinda undermines my earlier suggestion of a "very last" warning, doesn't it? You'd have to assume he's reading this, and that's his reaction. I support the topic ban immediately now, since I agree with incorrectly accusing other editors of being detrimental to the encyclopedia ... definitely is a personal attack. Begoon  00:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's my cynical take; what we have here is a generation gap, a wave of new adolescent-to-young-adult editors who grew up in an age of having every virtual thing at their fingertips. Want a song or movie? Torrent it. Want a picture for meme generation? Google it. Welcome to the collision of Web 2.0 and the 21st century, this is just a taste of things to come. Tarc (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's cynical at all. Just observant and realistic. A whole new use for the term "free culture" perhaps..? Begoon  00:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban

Although User:Werieth proposed it, let's formalize the wording, as it appears to be necessity:

I propose: User:PantherLeapord is topic banned from uploading images, participating in all image-related discussions, and from any other mention of images or those who have uploaded images across the English Misplaced Pages, added broadly construed. This topic ban is for a period of 6 months. After 3 months, User:PantherLeapord may appeal for a loosening of these restrictions on WP:ANI. Violations of these restrictions will be met by escalating blocks. The restrictions will be logged at WP:RESTRICT

• Support as proposer (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support, broadly construed. GiantSnowman 15:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support - if an editor won't abide by image policies, then they should not get to work with images at all. (Though I think any future appeal should be at WP:AN rather than WP:ANI?) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, I can understand Kumioko's concerns about "broadly construed", below, and I prefer BlackKite's alternative wording - it's not enough to make me withdraw my support as worded, but I do think we'd be on more solid ground with the more specific wording -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support as above. — Richard BB 16:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support with clause, it should be indefinite, (IE until it can be demonstrated that the user's behavior has changed) setting a hard time limit just delays the issue. Werieth (talk) 17:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support with regret, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but the repeated attacks on other editors, after warnings, who are actually following policy is not acceptable. Black Kite (talk) 17:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose with the broadly construed language - As mentioned in detail in the subsection below.Kumioko (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support The user has continued the behaviour without any sign that they even acknowledge the concerns. After 3 months of non-disruptive editing elsewhere they can appeal for relaxation. It would be a different matter if there were any indication that they recognise this problem and intend to address it. I don't see that, and continued personal attacks and disruption of discussion must not be allowed to continue. Begoon  00:58, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Obviously some harsh re-education is needed! PantherLeapord (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support - As per reasons given above. (wasn't sure where to put my vote so i put it here, dont hesitate to move it if its in the wrong spot) ★★RetroLord★★ 11:49, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support - well, if the subject of this topic ban seems to support this (hurr), so shall I. ViperSnake151  Talk  05:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

  Lol, I was about to point that out. OhanaUnited 05:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose #1 I'm not seeing any truly troubling links. Kww's link is certainly combative, but it's own his on talk page. Modifying a templated message isn't that horrible. His edit warring on images is a more serious problem, but he was blocked for that. He needs to have it made clear that he needs to act like a reasonable person. That said, his views on NFCC are fairly similar to my own. I don't like the idea of banning someone from an area because they hold a minority view. Especially when (IMO) the view is quite reasonable. I feel this is moving into WP:CENSOR range. Hobit (talk) 18:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• So what you are saying, is that editors are free to (clearly, and absolutely) violate our policies and then (clearly, and repeatedly, after warnings) personally attack those that point this out, calling them destructive? Interesting idea, can't help thinking it wouldn't be generally constructive though. Although, given that the issue is NFCC it doesn't surprise me; there appears to be some sort of exception for WP:NPA when it is aimed at editors upholding NFCC. Nothing changes. Black Kite (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• You make a good point. I will point out that NPA isn't exactly our most enforced set of rules--I think you'd agree many editors get away with personal attacks stronger than these. Though yes, this user has going past what I think is blockable under NPA (Kww's block was a good one and further blocks for NPA would have been quite reasonable). But I'd personally prefer a short block for NPA (week?) rather than a topic ban in the hopes of improvement. That's what we generally do I think.

Further, I do think our NFCC enforcement is broken. And I can fully understand why people get extremely frustrated with it, because I'm extremely frustrated with it. When we have people speedying pictures when it is claimed to be the only picture of the creature (and that wasn't disputed at the time of the speedy though it is false) or arguing that a picture of an 80-year old is sufficient for an article on a person famous for his boyish looks. Yes, it's frustrating. And yes, I understand the anger. Further, and more generically, I really don't like topic banning people with minority opinions without first trying other options. Mentoring, escalating blocks or other options haven't been explored. Not sure it would work, but it hasn't been tried. Hobit (talk) 18:47, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm on the other side of that one. I would have thought, given that the user does have constructive edits away from his obvious problem with images, that a topic ban on images would be better than escalating blocks, especially as it would keep them away from the issue that clearly irritates them and which is likely to get them blocked (if that makes sense). I agree that our NFCC enforcement is broken though; that's because it's actually impossible to enforce - even to the extent of admins backing up those violating NFCC - which is why we have so many non-free images. Black Kite (talk) 04:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I think a 6 month topic ban shouldn't be the first step--especially on a wiki-political topic. A block associated with the NPA policy would have been a better first step. I don't think I've seen a topic ban before with only one previous block on the account. I'm sure they've existed, but... And if you think the NFCC policy is broken on the side of over-including non-free images, I can't imagine what you would want FfD to look like. I suspect the delete rate there is already over 90%. Hobit (talk) 06:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Comment about broadly construed

I do not agree with the language broadly construed. This language has been used in other restrictions and ends up turning into a means for abuse because its too open to interpretation. The sanction needs be defined and if need be can be revisited later. We shouldn't be using weak language like broadly construed, whenever you feel like it or on the admins whim. They all mean the same thing. If the intent is that the user be restricted then it needs to be clearly stated what the restriction is. Kumioko (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I take this as anything regarding files/images. Upload, FFD, DRV, NFCR, and anything else that we may have forgotten to spell out in regards to files. This basically means anything to do with files is topic banned. Using a broad brush prevents attempts at wikilawyering around the edges Werieth (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

But it also allows 1400 people with differing views and interpretations of the rules that they can do whatever they want. If you say anything to do with files fine. But adding broadly construed some admin that doesn't like the editor could justify that editing Photoshop is a blockable offense because its releated to files "broadly construed". It has happened a lot. Kumioko (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that's pushing it a bit, but I get your point. How about "User:PantherLeapord is topic banned from uploading images, commenting on image files or their usage, and participating in image-related discussions or discussions of policy related to images, across the English Misplaced Pages"? Black Kite (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

No admin would make that leap. You are building quite the strawman. -DJSasso (talk) 19:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

@Black Kite, I think that's much better thank you.

@Djsasso, I wish I was just building a strawman, but I'm not. It has happened many times. Liberal blocks have been doled out many times by admins, frequently involved ones, for things that are far removed from the purpose or intent of the block. I've seen it here on this page, at Arbitration Enforcment and in other venues and frankly I'm tired of editors being beaten up over poorly worded sanctions. I'm also a little disappointed you think so little of me for trying to improve the project....but I don't really care either. Kumioko (talk) 19:25, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Commenting specifically on the language as I've not read the rest of the thread. The counter argument is of course that many editors have tried gaming a ban by editing a closely related topic in the same problematic way while technically obeying the wording of the ban. This is an attempt to avoid this happening. Although I agree somewhat with your concern we also don't want editors gaming a ban. Striking the right balance is difficult. I do hope however that if a single admin interpreted "broadly construed" too broadly their action would be overturned here. Dpmuk (talk) 20:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I would hope that as well but historically that has not occurred. I also understand and I sympethize to a degree but we shouldn't be dealing in what if's. If we say they can't edit images because editing images and we are afraid they may start editing videos, then by all means say images, video's and files. But we should leave it completely to the discretion of the admins becaue unfortunatly best intentions aside we don't operate in a utopian society where best wishes prevail. If the user starts editing something else (infoboxes maybe or Portals) in the same problematic manner then they can be brought back and we can revisit the issue. But we shouldn't be so generic that we have this "and stuff" language. On a related point and although I didn't fight this issue yet we should be specifying a duration. Is it 1 month, 6 months, 1 year, forever? The way these are written they infer forever when in many cases 6 months might be sufficient. Kumioko (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Kumioko and Dpmuk's views. Not to mention that having a "broadly construed" topic ban implies that the editor being topic banned has been consistently disruptive in too many places such that a broad ban is required when in reality this is not necessarily the case. It's analogous to being banned from going into all bars in a city because you got rowdy in one or two places. Blackmane (talk) 00:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement from PantherLeapord

Someone probably needs to close this and make the topic ban official before this thread is moved by the bot to the archive... PantherLeapord (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Three solid days of bullying, insults and incivility by User:Flagrantedelicto

Stemming from a conflict regarding WP:COPYPASTE at Talk:Muawiyah I, User:Flagrantedelicto has engaged in three days of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA breaches despite having been warned for such behavior by multiple users over the past few months.

• From the original content dispute itself:

1. " I am also going to reinstate some of my CITED entries. And if you delete again without discussing it with me, I will REINSTATE it again."
2. "Don't mistake me for a non-Muslim WP editor who is unfamiliar with Islamic protocol and etiquette."
3. "And who are you to decide what the "facts" are ?"
4. "And please do not offer me anymore unsolicited advice as to where to discuss matters here on WP."
5. "Don't go into any WP guideline bureacracy with me. You are a POV pusher who appears to be manipulating WP guideline policies to what you deem "neutrality"...There is nothing contested here. The sources have been cited and that is that."
6. "And where do you suddenly come out of the blue and question and accuse me of copy-pasting from polemical websites ?"
7. "lol...You must have me mistaken for your friend Johnleeds1...And I could care less what you suspect. Who exactly are you to accuse any WP editor?"
8. " you are a latent pro-Muawiyah Salafi/Wahhabi POV pusher who is manipulating WP guidelines and policies to impose your latent POV"
9. "First of all, my supposed or perceived "bad attitude" toward other WP editors is none of your business. Don't mix up your issues with someone else's."
10. "I don't really need to know who you are, nor do I particularly care to. But I am aware of your POV"

• Flagrantedelicto being uncivil due to my attempts at seeking conduct dispute resolution

1. "Where do you come across with such wild accusations ?"
2. "If anything, your actions give the impression of someone who is out of control."
3. " I shall introduce (or perhaps re-introduce) myself as the editor who is supposedly "out of control", or so I have been labelled...lol"
4. "And I don't need to report you, since you already brought attention to yourself when you went and cried to WP admin Diannaa."
5. "Your above semi-rhetoric of a response would even have been mildly effective had it not been for you running to a WP Admin and crying...You also falsely stated that I was "out of control" and had "outbursts"...lol"
6. You ask me to assume good faith, but lodge a false complaint of me being "out of control" and engaging in "outbursts"...You can offer all the policy rhetoric you want, but your POV is transparent"

• Flagrantedelicto's rejection of attempts at solving the dispute

1. By User:Toddy1 at 01:04, 17 June 2013, flat out rejected at 01:13, 17 June 2013
2. I asked Flagrantedelicto to cease his unprovoked mockery of me for quoting Stephen Jay Gould at 08:03, 17 June 2013, he simply denied what he was doing at 19:25, 17 June 2013
3. Toddy1 also expressed the view that Flagrantedelicto's comment was rude at 01:59, 18 June 2013, Flagrantedelicto once again flatly rejected this at 12:29, 18 June 2013 and denies that such concerns exist at 13:34, 18 June 2013.

• Flagrantedelicto's seeking of a third opinion even contains incivility

1. "::@MezzoMezzo. Your Stephen Jay Gould adage to Faiz Haider certainly sounds profound. It would be nice if you applied it to yourself."

• Flagrantedelicto's speculating about the religion of other editors

1. "Toddy1 (who gave the impression of being a non-Muslim) titled a new section header in Johnleeds1 personal Talk Page HAZRAT MUAWIYAH--Which almost no non-Muslim WP editor would have used. This reveals a Muslim affiliation..."

There is quite a bit more, but I'm only describing what requires urgent attention. In six years of editing, I've seen this maybe twice, and both instances ended with blocks. The longer this continues, the more bold this editor becomes, and thus I feel this requires immediate attention now. It is also worth noting that the admin I contacted, who previously warned Flagrantedelicto for incivility (he responded by saying "Before you start lecturing me, I couldn't care if you are the founder WP, please review both sides and don't cop to a double standard. If I am blocked do you think that really scares me ? LOL I don't like threats...Not from you or anyone. I also don't like your tone, either"), politely declined to mediate the dispute this morning due to other commitments. I don't see any other solution other than ANI at this point; this is a rather extreme case, at least in my experience. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Editor seems rude which cant be helped, otherwise the only issue I see is his use of religious beliefs as a reason to question other editors capability (as noted above and also in some of his talk page contribs). WP:PERSONAL Amit (talk) 16:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
• MezzoMezzo must learn how to handle talk page disputes himself..this is the 2nd time he has opened an ANI thread in these couple weeks..whats ironic is that there are cases of him being uncivil but he turns a blind eye on his own actions..apparently this user isnt aware that talk pages sometimes do get heated during discussion...this is another frivolous filing on Mezzo's part instead of attempting to calm things down he expects other users to do it for him. Baboon43 (talk) 19:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• The last thread was regarding you, Baboon. Nobody called it frivolous; I simply chose the wrong place and was encouraged to file an RFC/U by multiple editors, with one even calling it necessary. I thank you for your advice and perhaps I have made mistakes, but given that I drafted an RFC/U about your conduct I am inclined to be somewhat reserved in accepting your constructive criticism. MezzoMezzo (talk) 20:05, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• There are two related articles Muawiyah I and Yazid I. Flagrantedelicto has made more edits to these articles in the past six months than everyone else put together. Flagrantedelicto was asked to provide further details about sources that he/she was citing, so that other users can verify that these sources support the statements allegedly based on them. He/she has been asked this before. The kind of details requested include, publisher, date of publication, ISBN (if any), etc. Page numbers would also be useful. These details are not difficult to provide if you really have seen the source you are citing (though finding the right page numbers is more time consuming that providing publishing details). I would of course entirely understand a delay - a "hold on" message would have been acceptable.
• When I asked for further details on sources being cited on Talk:Yazid I on 2 February 2013, Flagrantedelicto did not answer, but instead a reply was posted by someone who has only ever edited Misplaced Pages on 8-9 September 2012 and 5 February 2013 explaining that other parts of the article had no citations, and giving reasons why there was no need/point in providing further details on citations.
• I raised this issue again on 9 and 11 May 2013 on Talk:Muawiyah I. Flagrantedelicto's reply was the other stuff exists argument, listing some problems with some citations by other people, which I fixed on 12 May, but he/she did not respond by fixing the problem with his/her citations.
• MezzoMezzo has raised the same issue (using different wording) on 16 June. He/she has advanced the theory that the citations have been cut and pasted from online forums, which is certainly a plausible hypothesis. If Flagrantedelicto is acting in good faith, why does he/she refuse to provide further details on the books that he/she claims to be citing?

• Flagrantedelicto has a habit of providing walls of text on talk pages. It is often hard to see the relevance of these.

• The question is whether or not the article should have sufficient details on sources for other editors to know what book is being cited and verify statements in the articles. What possible relevance is outing me?

• Personally I find some of the remarks that Flagrantedelicto makes to be uncivil. For example, please see User talk:Toddy1#Yazid I Talk Page, which was in response to my asking him to remove some uncivil words from one of his postings about a new user. Unfortunately Flagrantedelicto appears to believe that everybody apart from him/herself is a POV-pusher...--Toddy1 (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, please can the comments by Flagrantedelicto outing me be removed by admins from Talk:Muawiyah I and any other talk pages with them on. I have a right to privacy, and speculation about my religion is not relevant to the topic.--Toddy1 (talk) 22:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't even realize that, his speculation about your (Toddy's) private beliefs does seem like outing. He was already warned by two admins for trying to out another person back in January - User:Someguy1221 and User:The Bushranger - and his reply was that "My contributions on WP outweigh any undesired conflict. Is that understood (?)" and to accuse one of those admins of threatening him. An outing attempt in January isn't directly relevant now, but it does show that there is no excuse for this current outing attempt.

Look. The guy gets warned by an admin for incivility and he tells her "I also don't like your tone"; I don't know why User:Diannaa didn't slap a temporary block there but I admit I know little of how that works. He tries to out an editor that same month and accuses the warning admin of threatening him. Apparently on the Yazid article he's also behaving rudely and now, he launches into a tirade of insults and abuse for three straight days (hence my feeling that this is urgent and appropriate for ANI). This is clearly a case of a person who has been emboldened by the lack of action. He's violated WP:PERSONAL and WP:CIVIL enough times in three days alone to warrant administrative action and his history indicates no reason to believe that this behavior will stop. The two or three articles for which he has very openly claimed ownership are now essentially locked from discussion due to his rudeness. Something needs to be done not only in response to all these violations but for the good of the encyclopedia as well. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

As of a few hours ago, the user is still directing rude personal remarks at myself and Toddy1 as well, including on talk spaces that neither of us had previously commented on. I am looking bacj now and there were also more attempts than the one above to dig up private information in Toddy1 but I don't know how to post diffs because I am using my mobile browser and I'm not skilled with it. Look, this is a case of repeated incivility without provoking in our part in addition to what seems like attempts at outing. Something needs to be done. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:16, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like a clear-cut case of WP:NOTHERE to me - constant attempts to out people, deliberately seeking out conflict, horrendous uncivil comments, etc. A lengthy block, or even an indef, appears to be required. With response to Baboon's comment, well, that appears to be quite clear trolling as well - MezzoMezzo has clearly attempted to discuss the situation, failed, and come here looking for valid sanctions - as is the point of ANI. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Past behavior is relevant if it shows the user either can't or won't adapt to the collaborative editing environment. I was the target of the attempted outing in January, during an unnecessarily prolonged discussion over Mark Antony's date of birth. We had unequivocal statements placing the DOB from ancient historians and classicists, some of whom are notable enough for to have their own article. Even after I located and translated a German article narrowly focused on the DOB, along with finding the primary sources on which the secondary sources had been based, the user continued to make an OR counter-argument. When it comes to marshaling scholarship, I can take care of myself, but I was appalled by the user's attempts to undermine my credibility on the basis of gender. The worst of this, as I recall, was in the suppressed post in which the outing occurred. As one admin noted at the time, virtually every post made by Flagrantedelicto contained an insult or bullying remark. We shouldn't allow users to create that kind of toxic environment. A few other editors participated in that discussion, at least one at careful length (P Aculeius), and none agreed with Flagrantedelicto—until, after a couple of reports at ANI, the mysterious LiShihKai, who had never before edited Misplaced Pages, weighed in. LiShihKai has made a total of eight edits, six at Talk:Mark Antony, the last of which is perhaps the most scurrilous piece of incivility to which I've been subjected on Misplaced Pages. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Since this party is hosted in my honor, please allow me to crash it. I totally disagree with Cynwolfe's input as it is biased and has no bearing on the Muawiyah I article which is the issue. As Cynwolfe has probably no clue as to what has been transpiring in the Muawiyah I article. Also, I have joined this discussion. So let us stick to the facts. Also, Cynwolfe kindly forgot to mention that she initiated the adversity by calling me "ignorant". That is why WP Admin Diannaa did not go further with Cynwolfe's complaints. Anyone may ask me about the issue in the Muawiyah I article who has actually read word-for-word the exchanges. I agree with Baboon43's analysis. The only comments that really belong here are by those who have read word-for-word the exchanges in the Muawiyah I Talk Page. I put in a considerable amount of effort to improve that article over a month's time. So did another user Johnleeds1. We had our differences in perspectives but came to an understanding and resolved them amicably. This can be viewed by anyone in the Muawiyah I Talk Page as well as the Flagrantedelicto Talk Page. MezzoMezzo was not involved in a single discussion for over a month. Turns up all of a sudden and deletes hours of work without discussing it first. These are the rather Uncivil remarks by MezzoMezzo toward me which was really INITIATED by MezzoMezzo. Anyone here in this notice board discussion can go visit the Muawiyah I Talk Page and see for themselves :

all you did here was go into a rant about your own personal viewpoints on the subject,..... MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:08, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

But you know what? I'm tired of your bad attitude with other editors...... MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

And then MezzoMezzo admitted that he/she was not aware of the lengthy discussions between Johnleeds1 and myself. My dissatisfaction with Johnleeds1 is that he inundated this article with uncited entries (long before I restructured-NOT deleted any material of this article, which I only did later to uncited sources). All you have to do is go back and check the edit history to verify this. This article had dozens of sub-paragraphs that were entered by Johnleeds1 which were totally uncited. Toddy1 was surprisingly flexible about this, but with me, kept requesting even more detailed info than already provided to my entries which were all cited with references. These double standards are clearly evident and undeniable. And I voiced my CONCERNS regarding them, not accusations. And then MezzoMezzo suddenly turns up and DELETES considerable material which took quite an effort on my part to enter. MezzoMezzo also deleted the entire Shia View section of which I had no participation in (as I am SUNNI). The Shia View section was the product of other WP editors' efforts which were amply cited with references. MezzoMezzo did not participate in any of the lengthy discussions between myself and Johnleeds1 and just suddenly appears without having any awareness of what the content of our discussions were about. This statement by MezzoMezzo illustrates this:

Look, I didn't pay real attention to any of this until yesterday;....MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

As for my dispute with Johnleeds1, he too accused of me of a couple of things I never stated. But at least Johnleeds1 realized this and apologized to me more than once regarding his mistake. Johnleeds1 mistook his debate with someone else entirely in another WP article altogether, then accused me of something the other WP user supposedly stated. After realizing his mistake, Johnleeds1 apologized.

Flagrantedelicto sorry if I offended you. It was not my intension to offend you. The Abu Bakr thing was a mistake. .... --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Flagrantedelicto sorry if I upset you earlier. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 23:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

And my disagreements with Johnleeds1 were resolved amicably. You can view this yourself in both my personal Talk Page and in the Muawiyah I Talk Page. Johnleeds1 even complimented my efforts and agreed with some of the points I brought up to him. Here is what Johnleeds1 had to say about my efforts in the Muawiyah I article:

Flagrantedelicto you have done a good job of putting the article in chronological order. It looks much better now. Flagrantedelicto it may be best to move some of the text from the Shia section about Abdullah ibn Umar and others into the Sunni section too. All early books used by the Sunni favor Hassan and Ali over Muawiyah..... --Johnleeds1 (talk) 13:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is what the contradictory Toddy1 has stated about my efforts in the Muawiyah I article:

When people see the generally good work you do on Misplaced Pages, and notice in your good work some small errors in wording, and fix it for you... That is called helping you.--Toddy1 (talk) 00:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you are a good editor and are of great value to Misplaced Pages. But please be more self-aware, and more tolerant of views you do not share.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

--Flagrantedelicto (talk) 23:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

If anything, the above block of text by Flagrantedelicto further proves the point - he is absolutely unrepentant and unwilling to address the concerns of his peers here. While his message was uncharacteristically polite - likely due to it being on ANI - it still seems to focus on editing patterns of myself rather than the issues of incivility and outing. According to WP:OUTING:

Unless unintentional and non-malicious, attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block.

Here, Flagrantedelicto once again tries to justify his outing attempt on CNWolfe by saying that he felt the other editor brought it on themself. This is in addition to his refusal to address his outing attempts on Toddy1. This is the second time; he should be indefinitely banned immediately for this alone.

On top of that, we now have testimony from both Toddy1 and CnWolfe that this battleground mentality and proclivity toward insults has remained unchanged since at least January. Additionally, I only just now checked WP:NOTHERE as I had forgotten about the policy. It includes: General pattern of disruptive behavior, Treating editing as a battleground, Little or no interest in working collaboratively, Major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention and Having a long-term or "extreme" history that suggests a marked lack of value for the project's actual aims and methods. I think everybody here can agree that Flagrantedelicto is both guilty and unrepentant on both counts.

First of all, a temporary block won't work; he has shown defiance and even rudeness when warned by admins and it seems that a temporary block will only be a temporary solution.

Second of all, we have grounds per the policies above to request an indefinite ban. He has tried to out two editors now and has been unrepentant both times, even trying to justify his first outing attempt. This person should not be allowed to have an account on Misplaced Pages, as just the diffs above (there is still more) show. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

My god, is anybody else watching this? He's trying to out Toddy1 again right here in the middle of ANi. This is absolutely ridiculous, on top of his further accusations of Wahhabism against an editor who hasn't even participated here. How on Earth is this person not blocked right now? He's literally trying to out the same editor again right now, in the middle of ANI. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Flagrant, I'm going to make this really simple. Unless you want to take a forced break from Misplaced Pages, stop speculating about other editors' personal lives, and restrict yourself to commenting on content. This warning will be repeated on your talk page. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

@Someguy 1221...I'm going to make this even simpler: Don't threaten me. --Flagrantedelicto (talk) 04:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Completely uninvolved editor: Speculating on the religion of an editor is not WP:outing:

Personal information includes legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, whether any such information is accurate or not.

Outing involves posting information that may be used to identify the editor (whether correct or not). Stating someone is possibly part of a religious group is not outing. If he stated the mosque this guy might attend, or what suburb he lived in, that would be a different story. I hate to point out the obvious, but chances are most people who edit articles which are related to a religion likely also follow that religion, its not outing, its common sense. In the case above all that has been said is that someone has refered to someone in a certain way which likely means they are a member of or associated with a certain sect of Islam. Just like if on a Christian article if someone refer to a non-canonical modern day saint as such, they might be an LDS member. Purely for the record, I hold no religious affiliation whatsoever. -- Nbound (talk) 04:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

You do make a good point there. Regardless, the comment still raises serious privacy concerns, in addition to the fact that the user is trying to justify their speculation. That, with the constant aggression and combative tendencies since January, still causes me to lead toward a ban; I can only speak for myself. As an uninvolved editor, could you (Nbound) comment on the situation as it stands right now? MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I think the way the situation could stand is if you treated me like a fellow WP editor (who has a different perspective), and stop running in every other direction to everyone else. I am no alien from outer space but a human being (and a fellow Muslim). I'm clearly open to reach an understanding as I did with Johnleeds1 and we even came to agree on most points. Instead, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. I'll tell you this much, what faces me has never frightened me. --Flagrantedelicto (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm a Scot as apparent on my talk page (my father's French but culturally I identify with my mother's side), so as you could guess the bulk of my family is still Christian. My brother is an atheist, like I was before converting. I don't deal with people based on their religion, not in real life and certainly not on Misplaced Pages. So the religion card doesn't work here.

While I'm happy you're suddenly being somewhat polite here on ANI, the reality is that you're combative and rude with just about everybody you interact here. Just a few minutes ago, User:Someguy1221 warned you on your talk page like he said he would here and your answer was: "First of all, do you have the authorization to do this (?) And also I'm going to make this even simpler: Don't threaten me." Really, are you going to just turn Misplaced Pages into a battleground and take on all comers? You're still mouthing off to admins? I will reiterate: User:Flagrantedelicto is not here to build an encyclopedia and he has made that clear, from January up until a few minutes ago. They need to be banned. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Your closing comment is as hostile and uncompromising as it gets. Who are you to judge and evaluate who should be banned (?) You, who did not put in the hours of work on the Muawiyah article, nor improved it from its previous state which was a mess. It literally had paragraphs and sub-paragraphs duplicated in different sections. Neither you nor Toddy1 seemed to do anything about this. When I took the initiative, all I received was your hostile response. Even Johnleeds1 and Toddy1 openly complimented my efforts as I have already illustratred. --Flagrantedelicto (talk) 11:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

TBH, the whole thing is a bit of TL;DR. As a bit of general advice I would warn any editor who uses strong battleground tactics, that their time on wikipedia will be limited, either by the community at RfC/U, an admin directly, or <insert deity here> forbid, ArbCom. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative work, and should be treated as such. Unless an admin has been following this, and/or there is a definitely unarguable cause for ban, its likely that this will quietly slink off into the archives. I would suggest one of two options: Either an RfC/U to gauge community consensus on long term editor behaviour, or DRN for a formal approach to the content problems. I will not personally take part in in any DRN case pertaining to this (Im a DRN volunteer) due to COI issues as I am now technically "involved". And am not familiar enough with the entire situation to comment on an RfC either. -- Nbound (talk) 05:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sad yet true, this has become bloated. To me it seems crystal clear considering that just minutes ago the guy is still giving rather defiant orders to an admin for warning him, but if someone hasn't trudged through the walls of text it may not be clear. I'd still like to see if someone will take the time, as the absolute hostility this guy us showing to editor and admin alike seems absolutely deserving of a ban. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

James Gandolfini

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Will an admin please look at the rampant vandalism at James Gandolfini. The pace and range of IP and new account abuse is perplexing. A request is at wp:rfpp but they can be slow and this recently deceased actor is getting seriously distorted. :) John Cline (talk) 00:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I SPP'ed it. Thanks for your maitenance work. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 00:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thank you! :) John Cline (talk) 01:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Salvidrim! saves the day again. Thanks! Taroaldo ✉ 01:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Around 2013-06-19 10:00 UTC, there was a similar battle among various previously-unseen IPs and newly-created accounts in Christopher Dorner and a related article. Any clue what's going on here? —— 01:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring at Edward Snowden

@Fangorn-Y: back from a forced "holiday" of 31 hours, immediately made this edit and this edit, clearly in continuation of his pursuit (123456)for which they were blocked. There is pretty clear consensus that such content should not be in the article, but Fangorn keeps ignoring it by arguing that the info is interesting and source is reliable, or some repetition thereof. -- Ohc _{¿que pasa?} 03:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

First, the consensus is not clear - at least Surfer43 and A1candidate agree with my main proposals. Other editors differ widely by their proposals. Second, you 'forget' to say that YOU was recently blocked for the same action here: User_talk:Ohconfucius#Block, which was made immediatedly after a admin's warning: User_talk:Ohconfucius#ANEW. To faster undo my revision, you even reverted together another revision by A1candidate, without any reason (it was not related to petitions): User_talk:A1candidate#About_the_edit_war_in_.22Edward_Snowden.22. You has already been blocked 8 times by various admins. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AOhconfucius And do you ask about the edit war? Fangorn-Y (talk) 09:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks like you missed Ohconfusius' unblock 7 minutes later which was reviewed as not an edit warring block. Having read through the section, my take on it is that there is consensus for a brief line on the content you want to add in but not using the source you seek to use as it is not considered reliable. The consenus seems to be that anything more than a brief mention is undue focus on a comparatively minor point. Blackmane (talk) 11:10, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The wrong information. First, Ohconfusius was unblocked 15 hours later (not 7 minutes, as Blackmane wrote) by another admin. Maybe this admin didn't know the previous history User_talk:Ohconfucius#ANEW ? Of course, his last reversion itself is not a sufficient cause for blocking. Second, the discussion was not about 'a comparatively minor point'. Third, all information I inserted is based on sources considered reliable by all (including my opponents). Fangorn-Y (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It was in fact about 15 hours later. You've got that right. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'll concede that point, I saw the time stamp but misread the date. Blackmane (talk) 09:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fang appears to be trying to use Misplaced Pages as an advocacy tool for the White House "petition" about Snowden. He's been stymied from doing that on the Snowden page, but he's still active on the White House "petition" page We the People (petitioning system). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

On the White House "petition" page We the People (petitioning system) I simple copied the update of secondary sources from the Edward Snowden page. This update was made by Surfer43, and has never been criticized. It only replaces an old secondary source claiming 30K signatures to a newer secondary source claiming >80K signatures (really now there is 86K signatures). It is now on the Edward Snowden page, and nobody ever appealed to revert it. Fangorn-Y (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

However, when I copied it to the We the People (petitioning system), it was reverted two times for two hours, first time without any explanation, second time by an unregistered user with the 'explanation' "(BRD revert. Snowden content not justified)" . If it is not a promotion, what is it? May I consider such reversion is vandalism? May I revert it? Fangorn-Y (talk) 18:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The "We the People" thing has to be discussed on its talk page. As the remover pointed out, there are many of these so-called petitions, and until or if the President responds to this one, having it on that page is undue weight and amounts to advocacy. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Keeping such counts up to date smacks of advocacy. It's also worth pointing out that Fang's previous entries were about biology. He stopped editing on October 1. Then he started again in early June, totally focused on this one thing. Beware of possible sockpuppetry and/or possible hijacking of someone else's account. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:28, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Even though it is a little suspicious, WP:AGF. Surfer43 (talk) 00:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Since the editor is clearly pushing a political agenda, he's pretty much eroded whatever good faith he might have started with. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Serious IDHT in any case. It would have been a whole lot more sensible to just wait for the petition to peter out and then look for a secondary source that gave a final tally. Any other use is WP:UNDUE and WP:ADVOCACY per Bugs and Surfer. Blackmane (talk) 09:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Reisio, disruptive editing and combative behaviour, again

Reisio's behaviour does once again (for the umpteenth time, judging by a quick search of the ANI archives) merit a report here at WP:ANI. Three weeks ago he was sternly warned by Rannpháirtí anaithnid for edit warring on all pages relating to the letters of the ISO basic Latin alphabet and for systematically marking his edits as minor edits in an attempt to fly under the radar and avoid scrutiny. Which didn't stop him, because he's still marking his edits as minor, whether they're minor or not. But he has shifted his attention from letters of the alphabet to maintenance tags, deleting maintenance tags en masse without making even the slightest attempt at solving the underlying problems in the articles, that is just deleting the tags. In spite of protests from numerous other users. And warnings from numerous other users. His combative mood can be seen both in his edit summaries and in his standard response to criticism and warnings: copying all warnings on his own talk page (thousands of bytes worth of it) and pasting it, along with a short comment at the end of it, on the talk page of whoever dares criticise him (diffs showing that behaviour on the user talk pages of User:Tedickey: , User:Randykitty: , and , and me ,, and ). His disregard for the opinions of others can also be clearly seen on some articles where his deletions of maintenance tags have been observed and opposed, in the form of edit wars, with Reisio making three reverts on each article during a 24 hour period, but stopping there, deliberately (ab)using the system to the max (, , ). So there's a clear need for some administrator action, and a forced leave from WP for Reisio (which wouldn't be his first block, because his disruptive editing and combative behaviour has been going on for years, with no improvement shown). Thomas.W (talk) 10:41, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. Will someone please LART that thing with the bouncing warning templates: Andy Dingley (talk) 10:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

BTW - Someone, claiming to be Reisio, has been following this up with a bunch of trolling email. I didn't think it was him, but given how combative his behaviour seems to be generally, I'm no longer sure. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Even the ANI-notice that I posted on Reisio's talk page bounced and found it's way to my talk page, which makes me believe that there might even be a competence problem involved. Thomas.W (talk) 11:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I’m beginning to believe there might be a competence problem as well. ¦ Reisio (talk) 12:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I see Reisio has been blocked - but meanwhile he had chosen to provide clearly-misleading legal advice on Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Computing. Further grounds to question competence... AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I've given him a week off, which is the next step up from his previous couple of 72-hour holidays (along the same lines of edit warring, hostility and tag-removal). My overall impression of Reisio is that he treats other editors and the collaborative process with something resembling contempt, which isn't a good fit for the project no matter how good or knowledgeable an editor one is. Any recidivism post-block should be responded to promptly. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Blocks aside, can we please have a clear ex cathedra statement here that bouncing the warning templates back is not an appropriate action. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
  • We don't need to codify every example of obnoxious behaviour. It should have earned him a block before this, and will certainly earn him a block of twice the duration if it happens again. If anyone else decides this is a clever thing to do we could put something in our guidelines about it, but I think it's a fairly unusual tactic of annoyance. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Thumperward. User/Abuser:Reisio seems to enjoy pissing others off in pure trolling fashion. He should not be answering questions at the help desk with such immaturity. 50.160.220.114 (talk) 23:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• IMHO, this user needs to be introduced to the use of {{talkback}}.--Auric talk 07:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Spam links?

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WARNING: read full post before accessing the link. I noticed that alumnac.com appears in hundreds of high school articles. Is this useful information? I can't tell because Chrome tells me that the site contains malware. That is, is this useful like "find a grave" or spam like "classmates.com"? Rklawton (talk) 12:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• This tells a little bit more. Maybe we need to a bot to remove those links, and a filter to prevent them from being added? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 14:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• I only found links to that site in six articles; I manually removed those. They were all in the "external links" section, so it didn't appear they were there to support any referenced information. If there were hundreds of other articles using them either someone else cleared them out before I got there, or I'm not searching in the right way. 28bytes (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Someone should add that to the spam blacklist, something I've not done before. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 14:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Good point. I will do that. 28bytes (talk) 15:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
•  Done. 28bytes (talk) 15:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There weren't hundreds. I misread the search results. Rklawton (talk) 15:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

IP repeatedly removing shared IP template from own talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• 12.71.77.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – On User talk:12.71.77.121: vandalism after final warning. IP-user repeatedly removing shared IP template from own user talk page, in violation of WP:REMOVED. The user has been edit warring on Google Nexus to the extent that the article has been semi protected, and seems to have just realised that the shared IP template clearly identifies the I'net connection he/she is on as belonging to AT&T Corporate HQ, and now wants to remove that embarassing fact from sight. Also note his/her less than polite edit summary in the latest deletion of the template. If the user is blocked removing talk page access might be a wise move since that's were the disruptive editing is taking place. I first reported it at WP:AIV but struck it there and moved it here, both because I'm asking for talk page access to be removed for the duration of whatever block, if any, is metered out, and because blocking an IP at AT&T Corporate HQ might be seen as a trifle sensitive by some (other reports filed after this one at AIV were taken care of, but this one wasn't...). Thomas.W (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This diff might also be interesting. Thomas.W (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Stay off of my talk page. Final warning. 12.71.77.121 (talk) 16:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Given that it's a corporate IP address, perhaps an email to the responsible IT department would be helpful. Federales (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

IP blocked 3 days for edit warring. I will replace the sharedip notice and tell them that if it is removed again talk page access will be revoked. JohnCD (talk) 16:41, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Three minutes after you posted your message on his/her talk page both the shared IP template and your message was gone. Thomas.W (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Restored, talk page access revoked, IP advised to read WP:BRD. JohnCD (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Violations of WP:Disrupt, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, etc., at the Tea Party movement Moderated discussion

Counterparty: Malke 2010 (talk)

Though the following issues arose in the context of a moderated discussion with an Arbcom member as moderator in relation to a suspended case, the burden on said moderator may have become too much, or he may be wanting to see what results when matters are left to the community. In any case, I’m compelled to seek input on the following matters. I have, incidentally, attempted to contact Silk Tork by email in relation to this matter, but he hasn't responded.

Earlier I posted a working draft for the major part of the Agenda section Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion#Working_draft_of_Agenda_section_.28partial.29_with_section_on_the_Constitution, largely consisting of material on the Constitution. As it is a “working draft”, the object of posting it was to solicit input and comments toward further editing on the way to achieving a presentable text which could be put to a vote to assess consensus (SOP on that page).

Before posting the text, there had been a question as to whether I intended to put it to a vote, to which I responded

Of course, a vote will be called to assess consensus once a text has been composed.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Granted, the response says "composed", but the that was made in haste, an as per past instances of proposing drafts and editing until a final consensus achieving text has been reached on the moderated discussion page, I as simply proceeding according to SOP. Moreover, the title of the section makes it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt what the intended status of the text was "Working draft of Agenda section (partial) with section on the Constitution". Naturally the text was to be a working draft subject to revision based on the response and ensuing commentary, as per SOP.

Malke called a premature vote for no stated reason other than to dismiss the text outright before anyone had a chance to comment. Obviously that would serve to curtail discussion on the substance of the text, not to mention potential modifications, thereto. The section heading she chose read, “iVoteon proposal to add enormous amount of non-relevant text about the U.S. Constitution” , She subsequently revised that to remove the hostile an insulting portions. Prior to that, I had hatted that premature vote and left a comment. She the reverted my hatting

The objective of the editing behavior raised here would seem to be to cut off discussion and force a vote before the text has been assessed, commented on and revised accordingly, which would seem to raise issues with WP:DISRUPT. Obviously I feel that the text is relevant, so there is an issue with WP:AGF in regard to the characterization that the text was “non-relevant”. The reversion of my hatting of her premature call for vote and comment clearly indicating the situation and pointing to previous related comments would seem to raise issues with WP:CIVIL.

There has also been some POV pushing in the following comments. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about others, but a previous situation where there was a previous vague and unclear discussion that went on that looked similar and then Ubikwit made a controversial edit saying that there was no opposition in the discussion. This I think has made me and possibly other folks want to weigh in clearly and early now on Ubikwit-led items. North8000 (talk) 18:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

What exactly are you talking about? "Not sure" and "previous vague and unclear discussion" leave a lot to be desired in terms of specificity.

Indeed, I would prefer that you "weigh in clearly" and not in ambiguous term without providing diffs to that to which you are referring.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:11, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I am not "reporting" anybody....there is too much of that there already. My point is that some have become concerned of TLDR and unclear discussions where the inevitable resultant low participation might get interpreted as an "OK to change" and thus tend to clearly weigh in before that happens. North8000 (talk) 19:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Reporting party should remove this and post diff to User talk:SilkTork. He has been our babysitter at Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion. †TE†Talk 22:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Comment to admins:

1. Over the weekend of June 15-16, Ubikwit started a thread about a contentious topic and proposed an edit to the lede, which is probably the most contentious section in the whole of the Tea Party movement article.

2. Another editor supported his proposed edit. Ubikwit voted his support, and then actioned the edit. He then informed Silk Tork of what he'd done. .

3. The moderated discussion has been progressing well, but often it takes up to two weeks of revisions and input from other editors before edits are actioned. Ubikwit is a lead contributor to that page and therefore knows very well that his vote and the vote of one other editor is not enough to action any edit to the article and especially not to the lede. And particularly, not over a slow weekend when participation by the others tends to be down.

4. He did not wait for wider discussion or for input from other editors. He was met with opposition . As a result, Silk Tork had him revert the edit.

5. Since then, Ubikwit has again opened another thread regarding the same topic with a large wall of text as his proposed edit. This appeared to be the edit he intended to make. Having the experience of how he handled that last edit, and as the weekend is approaching, I opened the ivote section and others have since opposed his proposal.

6. Per the rules laid down by Silk Tork, any issues with the moderated discussion belong on that page and any complaints about editors are to be brought to Silk Tork's talk page.

7. Since Ubikwit has said he emailed Silk Tork and has commented on ST's talk page, there doesn't seem any reason to bring this here. It appears to be another example of Ubikwit hounding me. He's been doing that since February. He's often confrontational, mentions my name at every venue he can, makes comments like this: ], and makes frequent personal attacks. If any admins want evidence of the hounding I will be happy to provide diffs. Otherwise, I agree with ThinkEnemies. This is best addressed at the Tea Party moderated discussion page. Malke 2010 (talk) 01:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

There are a number of misleading statements above. First, there was a third editor that voiced support for the proposed edit to the lead before I actioned it, and not a single "oppose" vote. Meanwhile, it had been more than two days since the vote was called and more than 24 hours since the last voicing of support.

I reported the edit to Silk Tork:

User_talk:SilkTork#Actioned_edit_of_reference_to_Constitution_in_lead

Silk Stork did not state that my edit was improper or against the rules, just laid out the principle that the main body of the text should be worked on first, and the lead edited subsequently to summarize the main body of the article:

Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion#The_Lead

Talk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion#Working_on_Agenda_section

After recommending that the lead be returned to the form it was in at the time the article was locked (I carried that out), he unhatted the section on the Constitution and the Agenda that Malke had arbitrarily hatted, which was another behavior I brought to his attention.

Malke has been making efforts to obstruct discussion of the Constitution for some time now. Whereas she hatted the earlier section and refused to participate in discussion regarding the edit to the lead (which has been edited and reverted even prior to the discussion on the moderated page and ensuing edit), now she appears to have adopted a reverse tactic of prematurely calling a vote before anyone has had a chance to participate in the discussion and editing of the sample text. Moreover, it was her revert-warring of precisely an earlier version of this text while refusing to engage in a discussion of the substance of the content on the Talk page that resulted in the article being locked.

The diffs posted above also include Malke commenting on my WP:Competence in an unwarranted manner

Plus, huge walls of text with block quotes suggests to me a lack of understanding of the topic to begin with. When a writer can't paraphrase something and relies on block quotes instead, it usually means a lack of understanding of the topic to begin with.

Silk Tork has prohibited such commenting on editors instead of the edit.

In addition, this is now the second time she has leveled the false accusation of WP:Hounding against me . In that case, I responded by email to Silk Tork in order to avoid inflaming the situation. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 02:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• As long as there is an open, albeit suspended AC case, as well as an attempt to moderate this issue, I think it's unlikely that an admin. with a modicum of knowledge on the background will be willing to take action on this thread alone. If Silk Tork, or any other admin following the discussions at that moderated discussion feel that some administrative actions in regards to behavior are required, then I'm sure they will not hesitate to take the appropriate action. As this board was not designed to determine "content issues", I'm not sure that actions on this thread would be appropriate. Perhaps this should be kept at the talk page discussion level. — Ched :  ?  03:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Understood. I have notified Silk Tork of this thread.

I drafted this complaint in a manner such as to address the disruptive editing and related behavior, not the content issues in relation to which that has arisen, but I appreciate the complexity of the context.

At any rate, if Silk Tork declines to comment here, then this thread can be closed and I will simply add a link to this thread and a summary to one of the AC case pages.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 03:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Wait, Ched, please do look into this. In suspending the case, we authorized discretionary sanctions for a purpose. If there is an editor who you feel is being disruptive, do not hesitate to topic ban them right out without fear of prejudicing the ArbCom case. NW (Talk) 03:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, but as it entails a LOT of reading, I must beg a few hours sleep first. I'll do some research and reading tomorrow. (East coast USA time zone) .. and thank you for such trust - it is appreciated. — Ched :  ?  04:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The following links might save a little time and effort:

1. An example of the work flow that has been established for proposing, discussing, and revising text until it is presentable for a vote to assess consensusTalk:Tea_Party_movement/Moderated_discussion/Closed_discussions("Trimming 2" section)
2. Relevant discussions relating to editing and other behavior issues as per AC case pages

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement/Workshop#Malke_2010 (“Comments by others” section)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement/Workshop#Malke_2010_2 (“Comments by others” section)--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 05:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have made it clear on several occasions that I am not always readily available to sort out issues, but that they should be brought to me, and then people wait. There is no issue important enough in that discussion that it has to be responded to urgently. I have advised people that obvious vandalism or BLP violations should be dealt with immediately - everything else is to be notified to me, and then people wait. Indeed, there can be a benefit for everyone involved in simply ignoring minor issues, and getting on with the more important task of building the article. Complaining about the actions of others is a huge part of the problem with that article. Walls of text, which are not about how to improve the article, but are about the behaviour of other editors, is not encouraging. I don't have the time today to look into the issue - I'm travelling - but I may have time to look into the matter this evening. I have no objection to an admin looking at the matter and making a judgement, and would indeed encourage that. The more independent eyes we have looking into the situation the better. SilkTork 08:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Ched's Review which is limited with respect to the topic in its entirety, and focused solely on the thread before this board. After approximately 2 hours of reading last night, and another 2 hours this morning, I must say that staying focused on the core of this thread can be difficult. In the end my view is to try to remain on the "behavior" topics which I believe this board's function should be. I appreciate the passion of politics, but often find that editing in those areas to be contentious, frustrating, and un-enjoyable - and since I don't get paid for my time here, I tend to avoid it; but I digress. Ubikwit, my view is that you are attempting to rush to judgement here. While I understand that you may feel that others are stalling and filibustering to avoid your edits, I think you need to give others the time to review and consider things without the "I want an answer now" approach. While there is validity to the "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" syndrome on Misplaced Pages, I don't believe it's always been in the project's best interest to provide said grease. You need to stop, read, look, and listen to those around you rather than trying to >>>force>>> your views through with continuous rhetoric, regardless of its validity or merit. To continue with the tired old cliche' sayings I was raised with: "Patience Is A Virtue". In conclusion: I will not be taking any administrative action toward any of the editors in this dispute/discussion at this time; other than to suggest to Ubikwit that he take a deep breath and accept the fact that often the path to the proper end is end is not always a quick and easy one. To be more clear; I suspect that others may be considering whether or not your efforts may be edging ever closer to that disruptive line that nobody should want to get near. — Ched :  ?  11:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Followup I appreciate the amount of time you put into your work to evaluate the scenario, as it is rather involved. My concern in coming here with these issues was not to rush to judgement, but to seek relief against what I perceive as attempts to obstruct and impede progress on the article by running the clock out on the moderated discussion before issues that have proven intractable are addressed.

The moderated discussion is a time consuming process, and the discussion at hand was just getting underway before there was an attempt to prematurely vote down a text that was proffered as a working draft for comment, not presented as a proposed edit. Rather than stalling and filibustering of my edits, the concerns I intended to articulate were of the opposite nature of attempting to "I want an answer now" from everyone that this incomplete and unconsidered text is unacceptable for discussion.

I must admit that I do not see what you are addressing with respect to the statement "trying to >>>force>>> your views through with continuous rhetoric".

Thank you.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 11:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

See WP:Cup of tea please. Everyone can read your posts here, on multiple drama boards, on SilkTork's user talk page, and in the moderated discussion, and note the nature of your own edits, and see your multiple accusations of incivility etc. That is why we have the "cup of tea." Collect (talk) 12:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No problem in taking the time. I do understand the passion involved with political issues. I have friends on both sides of the isle, and to say that the 2012 election was a difficult time for us would be an understatement. :). If you would have seen some of my Facebook discussions - you likely wouldn't have know whether to laugh or cry. I do understand that some folks may feel they are under a time constraint in that the moderated discussion has a deadline; but my point is that article improvement does not have that same time constraint. The trick here is finding a way forward, and often that means trying to understand where others are coming from. Once you find the "HOW" of collaboration, then the "what" becomes clearer and easier. For example: When I see the section heading "Agenda", I immediately put on my "this might not be good" hat. While indeed it may be the most accurate descriptor, it can also be a highly charged and divisive word. There is the misnomer that we provide no "POV" here, when in reality what we must do is provide ALL POVs. The "neutrality" of NPOV comes in when both (or all) sides are given fair and equal treatment. Just IMO, but there ya go. Anyway - I do wish you all the very best in resolving this very difficult situation, and wish you all enjoyable editing once everyone emerges out the other side of the ride. Best. — Ched :  ?  12:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the amicable discussion. I think that the advise regarding the "how" of collaboration is very important, and will make more of an effort to bear that in mind.

I don't want to belabor the point regarding the content issues, as they are extremely involved, but with regard to the Agenda section, since you mention it, that has been in the article for a very long time, and the issue with that is that it has consisted almost exclusively of primary source material, which is a position still being advocated by some editors Talk:Tea_Party_movement#Academic_sources. Silk Tork posted the following comment recently, for example, that draws attention to the issue sourcing.

There is a paragraph which consists almost entirely of a quote from Ron Paul. A paragraph with information gathered from a primary source - govtrack.us, rather than a secondary source. And a paragraph on an essay by Mead, which is the most useful paragraph, though is only one source on one aspect of the party, and leans too close to an editorial interpretation of the article.

The present discussion at the moderated page is focused on introducing the most focused on aspects by academics, and the entire section as it stands is sourced only to academic sources, but I am open to people introducing primary sources (in a policy compliant manner) so that corollaries can be drawn, weight evaluated, etc. I am aware that the text I have posted soliciting input has problems, but it does effectively illustrate a common thread in academic discourse that the article should include in some capacity.

Thanks again.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 13:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

If time will permit, I'd like to bring some evidence regarding Ubikwit's behaviours. Since he's naming me here, I'd like that opportunity. I wasn't able to do so yesterday because of RL work commitments, but I have some time this morning before I'm off again. I'd appreciate being able to do so. But if admins feel otherwise, I won't. Please let me know, thanks. I'll keep a eye on this thread. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:22, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This tea party mess is pretty preposterous. Just a lot of petty bickering about a whole lot of nothing...add in the walls of text that are the bulk of the talkpages and I can't imagine anyone being able to decode it from the outside. Maybe the best thing to do is topic ban the partisan players and walk away and see if some less partisan editors may take up the slack.--MONGO 18:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. No sane, reasonable editor is going to get involved in that mess, given the personalities and dynamics which currently dominate the discussion. And without input from sane and reasonable outside editors, content disputes on Misplaced Pages are impossible to resolve. The options are to a) topic-ban the most obvious partisans and tendentious editors to create breathing room for a serious discussion, or b) indefinitely abandon the article to the current group of vocal partisans under the supervision of a volunteer referee. ArbCom seems to have favored option b), which I would charitably describe as optimistic (and less charitably describe as naive, doomed to failure, and disrespectful to the time and effort of editors who make a serious attempt to generate good content on controversial topics). MastCell  18:51, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the person most involved and in the thick of it all and involved on nearly every dispute is brand new and not a party to the ArbCom case. And most of the people who were/are parties have left the article. North8000 (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This was already at ArCom. They temporarily suspended the case pending the outcome of the moderated discussion. This topic is currently under Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

SilkTork deserves a medal for their patience. I've been invited several times to "participate in the discussions" but that sounds as fun as a root canal. One bickering exchange dealt with whether the tea party movement was a grass roots movement or wasn't one...then the argument was about the definition of a grass roots movement...giant yawn.--MONGO 19:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

page break for convenience

My input is not at all related to any content dispute. The moderated discussion is to be used for that. My comments now are regarding Ubikwit's behaviours, specifically his hounding me. My understanding is that ANI is for behaviour issues. Ubikwit has brought me here and I believe I have a right to answer. Mongo, Quest for Knowledge and MastCell are right that the article is a mess but I have no quarrel with any content issues. I'm here solely because Ubikwit has created this thread accusing me of whatever he believes is yet another violation against him. It's time these behaviours were addressed.

Starting from the ANI, Ubikwit has been focused on me in a way that violates policy.

• ANI support topic ban for Malke.
• Comments about Malke on ArbCom evidence page
• Here he demands a response by Malke
• Here he accuses Malke of advocacy on Moderated Discussion
• Malke makes an edit on Moderated Discussion suggesting changes
• Criticizes Malke
• Opposes another Malke suggestion
• Dogging Malke's edits
• Malke makes edit suggestion on moderated discussion. Ubikwit demands to know, "What do you mean?. . ."
• Gets reverted on an article edit and complains to ArbCom about Malke
• Complains about Malke’s comments on ArbCom
• Malke makes suggestion and raises point about proposed edit and Silk Tork suggests waiting on edit until Malke has resolved question. Ubikwit attacks Malke
• Malke comments, Ubikwit attacks again
• Ubikwit cherry-picks Malke’s edits to moderated discussion and posts this to Silk Tork's talk page: “Since we’re cleaning out the attic,” and refuses informal interaction ban by Silk Tork
• And now he’s here looking for another venue for discipline. Everything I do he takes it to Silk Tork or ArbCom or he mentions things in other venues like the comment at the RfC/U.]
• Ubiwit also violated BLP on the moderated discussion to such a degree that it required oversight deletion. He called a living person a sociopath
• In addition, I believe Ubikwit is User:Dylan Flaherty, who was indef blocked. Dylan also hounded me, as admin MLauba noted in this exchange: see collapsed "deny section" under Res ipsa loquitur: .
• I think Ched is right that Ubikwit might want to examine his own behaviours. I for one am tired of this hounding and would this resolved here.
• I wanted to also add that prior to the ANI in February, I'd never heard of Ubiwit, or edited the same pages. Don't know where his fixation is coming from other than the possible Dylan Flaherty connection.

Malke 2010 (talk) 20:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The above indicates Malke's concerns that Ubikwit has been hounding / focusing on her, might be a banned user who has done so in the past, including ongoing efforts to "get her in trouble". I have seen the tendency for Ubikwit to characterize / spin-up semi-routine behavior as "wiki-sin words" (e.g. "disruptive" "personal attacks") in situations where most would not think that, every time they discuss them. I think the real test would Malke's previous proposal which I think was a mostly-disengagement between the two of them. Like maybe routine discussion but nothing else. I think that Malke expressed agreement with this type of thing. If Ubikwit would not agree to that, i.e. thinking that Misplaced Pages needs to have Ubikwit personally watch or go after Malke, then I think that such would be pretty telling. North8000 (talk) 00:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Sigh. SMH. I am not familiar with the Dylan Flaherty history, and I really try to stay away from dramaboards if I can help it. It does seem that Ubikwit is very quick to make accusations about alleged policy violations. Just recently he accused me of a WP:OR violation for an observation that I made on the article Talk page. I had absolutely no intention of using the material in the article mainspace, nor did I suggest or imply that I would. I've also noticed that he's had some unpleasant exchanges with Malke and North8000.
• At the top of this thread, North8000 also touched on a recent incident where Ubikwit was discussing a potential edit to the lede sentence of the article. Another editor, Arthur Rubin, made a remark which I understood as an objection Under the rules SilkTork has imposed, one objection means no immediate action on the proposed edit, and the involved editors stop and talk about it and work it out, so I didn't bother to say anything at the time; I'm sure several others took it as an objection as well, or they would have spoken up. Then Ubikwit went ahead and made the edit. Then he proposed another edit, really a radical overhaul of the entire first half of the article, and immediately Malke, North8000 and I registered our objections loud and clear. And Ubikwit acted offended. (?!?!?!?!?)
• Personally I really don't have a beef with him, but others clearly do. I've even said that Ubikwit was the type of editor I'm able to work with despite our differences of opinion. I just wish we could go back to editing the article, and try to avoid any further unpleasantness. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Problematic behavior by user Smarojit

This editor thinks that he owns the Misplaced Pages-article on Aishwarya Rai Bachchan and edit-wars with any editor who he disagrees with

Recently, he has been repeatedly attacking me and vandalising my Talk-page:

Any help to restrain him will be highly appreciated. Thank you and regards.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 22:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• A rather strange request, given that practically all your recent edits appear to have been reverting another editor over multiple articles. One might even suggest WP:STALKING. Black Kite (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• I wasn't aware of WP:STALKING. But it is unwarranted here anyways. When you see an editor removing massive chunks from articles, suspicion arises naturally that something might be wrong.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 00:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I guess you weren't aware that you are required to notify someone when you report them either, but you are. I did that for you. Please remember to do that in the future. I'm off for the night, but wanted to make sure that was taken care of. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 01:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I was aware of it yet I decided to not interact with him. He has been haranguing me on my talk-page in a regular manner, vandalising my talk-page and thanking me for all of my edits. But I think that I should've done it in any case, so thanks a bunch for your help. He is most welcome to disagree with me over the content in the article, but he has no right to curse me out.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 02:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• When that editor is experienced and routinely leaves informative edit summaries, it's probably better to simply ask him or her about those edits rather than assuming bad faith. But since you didn't do that other editors have had to revert your problematic edits and even more time has been wasted. Slow down and ask more questions, please. ElKevbo (talk) 01:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• This edit proves that I didn't assume bad faith. Being an old editor certainly doesn't keep you from getting monitored. And likewise, doesn't give you the carte blanche to do whatever you want on Misplaced Pages. I collectively made a mistake and I duly apologize to the people (or person) who may have been offended by this deed of mine.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 05:22, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's true, empty vessels make the most noise. I am not even going to lend dignity to this baseless accusation by trying to justify myself, but here are some samples of this user's disruptive editing on Misplaced Pages:

1.Blindly reverted edits by User: Ssg2442 and me, without citing any reference here: .

2. After I opened a talk page discussion here and asked him to provide sources for his claims, there was no response!

3. Disruptive editing at it's best can be seen at Talk:Dil Se..#Young Megha where he deliberately engaged in arguments with User:Vivvt and User:Bollyjeff for no rational reason whatsoever. His comments were crass and cheap. Again, he blindly reverted the edits of several senior editors which can seen here: .

4. More deliberate arguments can be seen at Talk:Karisma Kapoor#Sunjay Kapur or Kapoor?.

5. He has a history of edit warring, and was blocked for it. See this:

6. After I posted talk page messages to him, asking him to stop his crass, rude behaviour (which he has kindly linked above), he promptly deleted my messages. On asking him to read about civility in Misplaced Pages, he deleted my message with an edit summaries that said: "learn some manners before posting here" and "you need to mind your tongue and learn some manners".

7. Since then, he has blindly reverted my edits on two separate occasions, one at Krrish 3 and the other at Salman Khan. For the former, I removed an unofficial poster of the unreleased film, which he reverted without citing any reason for doing so. See here: .

Given this is the way this user conducts himself on Misplaced Pages, I am not surprised that he takes joy in wasting the time of other editors at every opportunity he gets. (P.S: His user page reads: "I am quite powerful on Misplaced Pages") --smarojit 05:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• His profanity is evident on this very page. Since he mentioned Krrish 3 and Salman Khan, I am going to clear the air. In the former (Krrish 3), I restored the poster but didn't refer to it as the official poster. In the latter (Salman Khan), I mentioned that Khan has starred in several commercially successful top ten highest-grossing domestic films of their respective years, then I listed them. His vandalistic retaliation was simply his revenge-edit. Note that he reverted my edit in the article on Salman Khan while he was persistently vandalising my talk page.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 06:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• As can be seen from the respective talk pages, I provided four reliable references to back my point on Talk:Dil Se..#Young Megha and two reliable references to back my point on Talk:Karisma Kapoor#Sunjay Kapur or Kapoor?. It's about time that someone take action against this user for his profane behavior.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 06:38, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Update: This editor is trying to rally other editors against me --Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 06:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Smarojit, ignore this thread and do your works. --Tito☸Dutta 07:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Yeah, Smarojit, ignore it. He is really wasting everyone's time. I have wasted my precious one day on this guy. If you give helpful advise to them in their tough times, they feel we are trying to take some advantage.--Vigyani_talk 07:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Vigyani is referring to this edit of mine. This happened when both me and user Vivvt were blocked for edit-warring over content in the article Dil Se... Vigyani, you need to stop bearing a grudge against me. Let go of it.--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 07:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• No, I don't bear any grudge if you think so. After that edit of yours, this is the first time probably I am talking about it. I was not interested in addressing to you, but since I am now, I will ask you to assume good faith, which you are seriously lacking. Also I am surprised that you still think that your references at Talk:Karisma Kapoor are reliable.--Vigyani_talk 08:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• (off topic) What a bad choice of color. I could not read anything and had to select the name to read it. --Tito☸Dutta 08:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Vigyani, we met on Dhoom 2 and its talk page, then on Dil Se..'s talk page, then on my talk page when I was blocked and now we are meeting here. You have been hounding me. As can be seen from Talk:Dil Se.. and Talk:Karisma Kapoor, I have cited 'Mid-day', 'Mumbai Mirror', 'THE TIMES OF INDIA', 'The Indian Express', 'OneIndia' and 'IndiaToday' but all have been called unreliable--meaning all Indian media outlets are unreliable. I need a break from this relationship--Isaacsirup_ReadMe!! 08:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

What a pity to see that everyone on Misplaced Pages is "hounding", "haranguing" and "harassing" you. We must be the devil! --smarojit 08:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Iscrp I thought you had suggest someone to read WP:BOOMERANG --Vigyani_talk 10:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Admins, please close this unproductive thread asap. Smarojit is one of our most productive Bollywood editors and wouldn't revert editors without a valid reason. Isaac, move onto something more constructive and please change the ridiculous colour of your user name which nobody can see.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

As I was notified by smarojit to comment on this, I can tell you that this user (Isaacsirup) is simply wasting other's time and doing no constructive editing since beginning. He/she either does not understand anything or does not want to. No matter how many talk messages you post on his/her talk page or on article's talk page, it does not help. (and only gets you blocked!) On Dil Se... talk page, he/she stared an argument providing hell lot of sources saying these are RS in support of Jiah Khan and declined to see the visuals. The discussion went for a week and got both of us blocked. When I asked other editors to list down their support/oppose for Jiah Khan and Priya Parulekar, this user listed his/her oppose for Jiah Khan saying "Obviously-all Indian media outlets are unreliable"!! - Vivvt (Talk) 13:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Problematic editor

• and best wishes with your daughter BK. — Ched :  ?  03:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Really sorry to ditch this on people and run, but it's 1.30am here and I have a small daughter with a rather messy health issue. It's probably related to the Darkness Shines thread above - contribs and name. Will notify, Cheers, Black Kite (talk) 00:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Read the talk page and read the sources. They are attributing my sources to material which it does not support. Read the page's first line. It is perfectly fine now. If it is reverted, you have a vandal by the very definition of vandal. And calling a user "problematic" when there is no other way to describe his SOURCED contributions you or the majority does not want to hear is not acceptable. Yesitwasgenocide (talk) 00:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• We're dealing with an SPA, who sounds like a professional crusader (note the name). The belligerent attitude suggests someone with a grudge--like a returning user. At any rate, I've blocked them for 31 hours on the strict charge of edit warring following the report at ANEW. Take it easy Black Kite. Drmies (talk) 01:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Should we start an SPI? Mr T 11:40, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Stemoc and 2013 mid-year rugby union tests

Can someone please take a look at Stemoc's conduct on this article? He has been repeatedly un-civil about me, and about User:PeeJay2K3. See Talk:2013 mid-year rugby union tests, this deletion discussion, and edit summaries here -

I now realise he has also breached WP:3RR -

I'm not looking for him to be blocked, but if someone could warn him to play nice, it would be appreciated. --hippo43 (talk) 03:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Believe me, no 3RR was breached, I changed it to an earlier version which i didn't consider the first time and what i reverted is regarded as vandalism in wikipedia i.e "removing sourced or verified information relating to an article", 3RR does to include vandalism and the user in question, PeeJay2K3 has a long history of being banned for 3RR. Secondly, you nominated that article for deletion and when the deletion request was DENIED, you started removing things from that article and many other related articles. What you did is what we class as WP:DRAMA and I should have reported you here but i chose not to.

I hope you admins consider this. The only thing i'm guilty of is incivility. When someone starts removing things without a valid explanation, its considered vandalism and reverting vandalism is NOT a crime on wikipedia...--Stemoc (talk) 04:16, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

User:UnrepentantTaco -- Disruptive creation of groundless AFDs, probable sockpuppetry

UnrepentantTaco created an account three weeks ago and since then has done virtually nothing but initiate deletion discussions and respond brusquely if not rudely to commenters who disagree with their nominations. The editor displays technical skills and policy familiarity not at all consistent with being a new editor, and a willingness to brandish WP:AGF against those who (quite properly) criticize his rapid-fire, poorly checked or conspicuously unresearched nominations that strongly signals past problematic behavior. Their complete failure to notify article creators of deletion proposals of any type is also a clear red flag. These comments to User:Dolovis also suggest an experienced editor with past troubles resurfacing with a new account. Most (but not all) of the deletion proposals have gone down in flames, usually quite rapidly. Among the recent problem nominations are:

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lee Yong-Cheol (Olympic athlete)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thon (river) (river whose existence is undisputed)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Sheep Look Up (rather well-known, award-nominated book)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Helga þáttr Þórissonar (a medieval Icelandic saga!)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thomas Metcalfe (Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster) (councillor to Richard III of England)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gil Skeate (1920's era NFL player)

There are many more. It appears evident to me that this editor is the same as User:Jamminjimmy, blocked for sockpuppetry in May (that block has expired). Some of their comments, including the rather odd motto on their userpage ("If these articles were a people, I would embrace their genocide") make me wonder if this is not yet another appearance by the indef-blocked User:IronKnuckle, who self-immolated in "a spectacular anti-Semetic meltdown" and has before and since been caught socking several times. I don't see any intent to edit competently or in good faith, and call for an indef block. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I too suspected (independently from Hullaballoo, but he posted first) it is the same user as User:Jamminjimmy. There is overlapping interest and to cite two examples. Paul Erik 03:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I am looking at them and haven't yet made up my mind. The Sheep AfD is now closed: that was indeed ridiculous--at the very least it was incompetent, BEFORE not being followed. But a few others seem reasonable. In all, though, I do get the feeling that they're just nominating for the hell of it. Drmies (talk) 03:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

And a totally inappropriate AfD here Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/H. C. Ørsted Medal. It is worth taking a look at the user's user page. Xxanthippe (talk) 04:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm just an ordinary but hard-working editor who was completely dumbfounded by the AFD posted for The Sheep Look Up, especially since the AFD notice pointed to a redlink for discussion. I had no idea where to protest this inappropriate nomination, but was relieved to see it closed as "Keep" some hours later. Whoever proposed the AFD appeared not to care about actually discussing this, or enabling anyone else to discuss it either. This rude and peremptory behavior is extremely upsetting and dispiriting to ordinary contributors not experienced with the AFD process. Reify-tech (talk) 05:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The lack of repentance is alarming too. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The red link in AfD boxes within the articles is a Misplaced Pages software problem, not some malevolent action of this guy. He did create discussion pages. If you click on the red link(s) it takes you to a "blue"/existing discussion page. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 08:22, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

When I tried clicking on that particular redlink, it did lead to creating a new, blank edit box, implying that the AFD proposer did not see fit so say anything about why the article should be deleted. Fortunately, other concerned editors more familiar with AFD proceedings later piled on in the article's defense. If what you say is true (and I have little reason to doubt it), that is a rather unfortunate bug. I did take a quick look at User:UnrepentantTaco's contribs and user page, and felt overwhelmed by the sheer volume and span of the AFDs. Some, perhaps even many of them were valid, but the casually issued AFDs on serious and useful articles were very dispiriting. Rampant deletionism is very corrosive to volunteer contributions. Thoughtful pruning is certainly necessary, but the mechanisms for appeal and discussion should be very clear, and must work as advertised. I'm glad this particularly destructive sockpuppet has been stopped, and hope that the Misplaced Pages admin mechanisms for identifying and stopping similar meta-level vandals work as efficiently and quickly as possible. Reify-tech (talk) 16:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The redlink thing is a genuine problem, and not the result of any particular editor. Several of my recent edits have been fixing those redlinks: the link turns blue if you substitute underscores for the spaces in the {{Article for deletion/dated}} template's "page=" parameter, like this. Dricherby (talk) 20:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

That's a weird and unfortunate bug. Has it been reported to the template maintainer? I don't know where to check on this, and know only what has been mentioned here. Reify-tech (talk) 21:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have personally closed one of the AfD as a clear speedy keep. I recommend topic banning User:UnrepentantTaco from AfD, a self confessed deletionist, to prevent further disruption by creating needless AfDs. Without prejudice to someone more familiar with the edits from opening an SPI with substantial evidence. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC).
• I ran a basic set of checkusers on this, looking for any obvious matches... but there were none. Any other CU is free to pick up where I left off, but there are no low-hanging fruit on this one. I would just indef the account and be done with it, given the polemicist user page, but topic banning would be fine, too. Jclemens (talk) 05:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Replying to myself because I forgot to do one other simple check.  Confirmed that these are the same person. Jclemens (talk) 06:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I suggest a ban from AfD nominations and prods. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC).

• Just closed the Thon AFD as an obvious SK as well. §FreeRangeFrog 05:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support AfD topic ban, broadly construed per related disruption . Given the WP:SPA nature of the account, an indef block would work just as well. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 06:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• I should note that a number of his nominations (his earlier ones, not those in the list above) were legit. I'm not sure if that was done to confuse things or what. Anyway, each should be evaluated individually, some were good, some were bad. I see he was blocked for sock-puppetry in the mean time. Sock of who? 86.121.18.17 (talk) 07:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• The motto on their user page is a variant of "If these words were people, I would embrace their genocide." from The Best Page in the Universe. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 08:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• I had a look through some of the AfDs, and like other editors concluded some were valid and some weren't. His comments demonstrated a lack of clue about how notability and the AfD process works, but I don't think he was being particularly uncivil. He's not editing in bad faith, he just thinks a one line "microstub" (his words) article with no cited sources must be non-notable by definition and he thinks AfDs are the best way he can help the encyclopedia. Ritchie333 09:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Competence is required to edit Misplaced Pages. Good faith (doubtful here) is not enough. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC).

sockpuppet accusation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not sure whether this is the right place. In the edit-summary of this edit User:Delicious carbuncle seems to openly accuse two users of sockpuppeting. As he doesn't provide any evidence for that, I doubt such accusation is o.k.. --Túrelio (talk) 15:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• What administrator action would you like taken? He could just have been using sarcasm.... Ritchie333 15:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive IP

190.162.52.196 (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is persistently edit warring at Jeremy Spencer right after returning from two blocks. Personal attacks have now been included here and here, not to mention some pointy edits at Python (programming language). I think it's time for a longer block. I would have done that myself, but, you know, I'm a "sanctimonious prick". Maybe the community can convince this anonymous editor that it is in fact themselves who're not here to build an encyclopedia. De728631 (talk) 18:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not see how removing subjective statements from an article could cause any kind of problem. But when you have people like De728631 blundering in without any clue about the situation, criticising me for calling a self described troll a troll, then we start to have problems. The mere fact that the troll had registered a username seems to have been enough for De728631 to assume that they were in the right. 190.162.52.196 (talk) 19:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The wording the IP has removed eight times is reliably sourced and has consensus. This IP understands neither of those things. The IP has three reverts at Jeremy Spencer within 24 hours , , , having already been blocked twice for edit-warring there. He's a single-purpose editor, leaves abusive edit summaries, he's called me stupid twice, and he's called an admin a sanctimonious prick, yet he's still here. Why is that? Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

No matter how many references you find that contain a subjective statement, it's still a subjective statement. Consensus doesn't trump NPOV. Would you want an article on Transnistria to start by saying "Transnistria, best known for being a separatist republic"? I hope you might eventually comprehend the absurdity of judging the facts when you can simply state them, but my hope is very distant. 190.162.52.196 (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

What you have persistently failed to understand is that it doesn't matter what you think of the statement (and you're wrong about it), it doesn't allow you to ride roughshod over the rules of Misplaced Pages. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not wrong about the statement. If you can't understand the difference between subjective and objective, you're a problem. As for rules, NPOV is a core policy which you keep on violating. 190.162.52.196 (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

NPOV has not at any stage been violated. If you understand it all so well, why did you replace one supposedly subjective statement here and replace it with another one? Did you do one of your global polls to establish "widely used"? Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. "Popular" is subjective. "Widely used" is objective. Can you honestly not understand that? 190.162.52.196 (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Widely used where? How? By whom? Enough already. This is an admin page so let's leave them to sort it out. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

See the sources that are cited. They contain details on how the use of various programming languages are compared. You are asking for objective facts which are easily obtainable, which is fine. Can you see how this is different to making claims that require you to know how people feel about the subject of an article? Can you understand that actually, you don't know how people feel about the subject of an article? 190.162.52.196 (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Six minutes after I made an edit at Lindsey Buckingham, this IP went there (wonder why?) and made the self-same removal of uncontentious information as he has done eight times at Jeremy Spencer . Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, can't imagine why I would end up looking at the article for more than one member of Fleetwood Mac. Once again your "uncontentious information" consists of subjective statements and puffery. Have you ever read Misplaced Pages:Avoid_peacock_terms? Are you even aware of those guidelines? 190.162.52.196 (talk) 20:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This edit by the IP-editor that Bretonbanquet is complaining about, improved the flow of English in the article. We should encourage the IP-editor to make more such edits.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Improved the flow? Didn't improve the sense, did it? Buckingham's still in the band. Coming from an editor who has a userbox on his user page that says he doesn't understand English, that's interesting. The IP is now trawling through articles on members of Fleetwood Mac, making the same edit , . He's also so ignorant of the subject matter as to have implied that John McVie has left the group, when he is in fact still a member. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the IP is right or wrong, it is not acceptable to edit-war across multiple articles, nor is it acceptable to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. This IP has already been blocked twice for edit-warring in less than a week. Apparently, they're not getting the message. Can we please get a block on this IP? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

In addition to edit-warring and disrupting Misplaced Pages across multiple articles, there's also personal attacks: "You are too stupid to distinguish between fact and opinion and that's a remarkable handicap for someone who is editing an encyclopaedia." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• The edit warring at Jeremy Spencer is ridiculous. PAs don't help. Blocked 1 week. Basalisk ⁄_berate 23:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This now-blocked editor has returned under a new IP – his edits so far consist entirely of undoing my edits from yesterday , including further edit warring at Jeremy Spencer. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

This person appears to be back and they're continuing to edit-war across multiple articles. They originally edited as 190.162.52.196 which is allocated to Latin American and Caribbean IP address Regional Registry in Uruguay. Their new IP address is 200.120.211.239 which is also allocated to Latin American and Caribbean IP address Regional Registry in Uruguay. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week, but I have a feeling they will be back soon. Maybe a rangeblock would be more effective, but I don't know how perceptible Chilean IPs are for collateral damage. Can a checkuser please look into this? De728631 (talk) 12:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

User:AfricaTanz

Hi everyone. I want to report User:AfricaTanz because his behavior seems very problematic to me. Beside telling other users they are "not welcome" to post on his talk page and accusing them of "long-term harassment", he unilaterally move pages about Tanzania (contrary to the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, and especially to the third bullet point of Misplaced Pages:Capitalization#Titles of people), and now it seems he plan to start an edit war on List of Prime Ministers of Tanzania and President of Zanzibar. I have no desire to get blocked in some stupid edit war with him (especially when I saw that he was blocked for 48h only 15 days ago because of edit-warring), so I decided to report behavior of AfricaTanz here. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 22:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I have notified AfricaTanz. I have to agree with Sundostund's assessment: AfricaTanz has strong opinions on article names (that's not a crime, of course), and he pushes them even when the community has overwhelmingly disagreed with him before. See for example WT:WikiProject Tanzania#District and ward moves, Talk:Rombo (move discussion launched within minutes of Prodego's and Mareklug's comments at the WikiProject talk page) and Talk:Rau ward, Tanzania (the page was moved to its current title hours after the Rombo move request had failed to find any support). With the lone exception of the Rombo, AfricaTanz seems to avoid discussion at article talk pages, and he explicitly disagreed with my suggestion to use WP:RM to establish consensus before moving pages. Instead he prefers to tell others to stay off his talk page or to tell them to stop their edits on the relevant articles: Others' un-discussed edits get labeled as disruptive, he himself edits largely without attempting discussion (I should point out this positive example, though the article talk page would probably have been a better place).

Even when I agree with his points I find AfricaTanz' lack of communication irritating, and his attempts to enforce his personal opinions on page titles against community consensus will not end well. Huon (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

My experience is he doesnt like talk pages, posted a discussion on my page that should have gone on a talk page and then chose not to engage in another discussion I opened on the talk page concerning his editing. Having said the which if directly challenged he hasnt, in my experience on LGBT in Jamaica, engaged in edit warring but instead has taken my comments to heart. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:50, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that other users noted AfricaTanz' problematic behavior as well. --Sundostund (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it may be a good thing to quote what a user said about the behavior of AfricaTanz in another ANI thread, 10 days ago. Here it comes:

AfricaTanz seems to be unable to engage in any constructive and respectful way with other users. I've been the subject of one of his frivolous 'edit warring' reports, along with another user on the same day, as he creates edit warring reports very liberally (diff, diff). In neither case were provisions taken against the users he reported, and in one case he ended up being himself warned. He later described the result as "a useful exercise", which seems to suggest that ending the imaginary edit war was not the objective for him.

Other users were treated in a similar manner: he refuses to engage in (seemingly benign) discussions, threatens with ANI reports (which adds to the impression that he uses it as a weapon, rather than to solve disputes), alters messages on other people's talk pages, and makes accusations of uncivil behaviour as well as unsubstantiated accusations of edit warring.

A dispute resolution has been opened on the matter that lead to his original accusations of edit warring towards me, but I feel that his conduct is by far the bigger issue.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 02:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Sundostund (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by user Li3939108

Page: Ping Fu (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User: ‎Li3939108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've already posted an edit warring report on Li3939108 this morning at . It is not resolved yet.

Background: The Ping Fu article has been subject to continuing POV edits and vandalism, from a rotating cast of characters, ever since the Chinese blogger Fang Zhouzi launched a human flesh search engine attack against its subject 5 months ago. On Amazon.com (where the people involved in the attack coordinate their actions), they've recently put out a call for people to edit this article, to include their POV. (Which comes down to “Ping Fu is a shameless liar.” Put it in google if you don't believe me.)

The last edit by ‎Li3939108 at was pointy at best, and certainly disruptive. When it's daylight again in China (where Li3939108 is), I'm assuming he'll pick up where he left off.

I don't want to short-circuit the process at WP:AN3, but neither do I want to spend the weekend wrestling with an editor who is bound and determined to post "the truth."

I'd appreciate some help in monitoring the page this weekend. (Apologies if this isn't the right noticeboard.) Fearofreprisal (talk) 22:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

At first glance, it looks like you're both guilty of WP:3RR - I'd suggest full protection and the issues can be solved on the talk page. Dusti 03:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I truly understand that wikipedia isn't a place to post "the truth". The content I posted has multiple reliable sources. User:Fearofreprisal has removed the {{POV}} tag. Isn't it a vandal ? --凡其_Fanchy 05:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Ping Fu's alma mater Soochow University has posted two official statements against Ping Fu. And Soochow U has prepared to file lawsuits both in China and the United American . The info may soon be updated. I add {{current person}} to the page. --凡其_Fanchy 05:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• The POV tag is inappropriate IMO, as is the "current event" tag - it smacks of tendentious editing from you, Li. As did removing a bunch of information in retaliation to Fearofreprisal's edits. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 06:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• dusti - 4th revert was an exception under wp:3rrno after I filed the wp:an3Fearofreprisal (talk) 09:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Request for someone to please explain the importance of politeness and not biting newbies

I'm reluctantly bringing this to ANI, as I can see no progress in further interaction with this user. I first noticed User:Surtsicna when he reverted an obviously good faith edit with the summary "reverting vandalism". Looking at his history, I saw that he calls things vandalism when they are obviously good faith edits, e.g. , , . I thought I should better speak with him about this, and decided to have a look through his history. I was a bit shocked to see that he routinely leaves insulting edit summaries. (e.g. , , , , ,, all from the last week, and I'm sure I missed some.) I'm not objecting to his reverts, I'm objecting to the way he reverts, as it drives off editors and worsens the problem of our deteriorating editor base.

I dropped him a message to express my concerns. His reply essentially denies anything wrong, and implies that I am being ridiculous and am insulting him. I admonished him to take my concerns to heart, and he removed it with the edit summary "I am astonished by your impertinence. Who are you to admonish anyone? Quit this bizarre stalking immediately and go away from my talk page."

I think it would be helpful if an admin explains to him that good faith edits shouldn't be called vandalism, that two neutrally worded messages on his talk page is not stalking, and that he shouldn't leave insulting edit summaries. FurrySings (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• While the user does have a somewhat overly-broad definition of vandalism, there really isn't anything actionable here and the so-called "insulting" edit summaries are incredibly weak: "nonsense" or "unhelpful" would be unkind if directed at a person, but directed at a sentence or template it's not an insult. On the other hand, FurrySings, your talk message with its child-scolding tone seemed to be intended to provoke a negative response (" If you care about the long term outcome of this project..."). Do you seriously think most editors would react well to that? If you agree with the reverts themselves and they weren't even your edits reverted, you come off here as unnecessarily picking a fight over nothing. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I must say how bizarre all of this is - so bizarre that a completely uninvolved user (with whom I only had a short discussion last year) could not help caling FurrySings' message an "intrusive inanity dumped on your talk page". FurrySings and I had not interacted in any way whatsoever before he or she started scolding me for allegedly rude edit summaries (such as: "Unhelpful. The portrait does not depict her."). The same user, while lecturing me about such supposedly inappropriate edit summaries, described me as "abrupt, surly or even rude" the very first time he or she contacted me. Such impudence is nothing but bizarre. I explained that I comment on edits rather than on editors and suggested that he or she should do the same, but to no avail. Surtsicna (talk) 15:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Tendentious editing at The Exodus

There appears to be a problem with tendentious editing at The Exodus.

In particular, User:Til Eulenspiegel disagrees with the consensus among scholars that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible. Which is fine -- he is certainly welcome to argue that -- but when asked for sources, he claims that none are needed because

"Several Christian Churches and other religions teach that this is historical. These account for hundreds of millions of adherents. You will never see them as significant because you have an anti-religious bias" ... "NPOV is a worthless sham if it only allows one POV to be presented and if it does not allow all POVs to be given impartially."

There are some related behavioral issues such as edit warring and personal attacks, but the main problem is a rejection of WP:V and WP:NPOV because they conflict with religious dogma.
Note: I ran across this one while investigating personal attacks by Til Eulenspiegel elsewhere. Other than that I have no real involvement with the page or interest in the topic. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I absolutely dispute that there is any such "consensus" and make no apology for doing so. Those who say "there was never any kind of Exodus, nothing to see, please move on" do not enjoy the monopoly on all permissible discourse that they pretend to enjoy. Nothing has been proven, we need to give all significant perspectives, therefore this is a POV dispute, and adding POV tags are appropriate, not something to be reported as "tendentious editing' to try to get me "in trouble" and removed from the discussion. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The tag I added was {toofewopinions} the one that says "More viewpoints needed". I have not even gotten around to looking for suitable sources yet, this is a tag stating that too few opinions are given and more need to be looked for. They are demanding that I supply sources in two seconds or there is no neutrality dispute because I supposedly lack standing to dispute the one-sidedness of this pov-pushing, heavily biased article. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Re "They are demanding that I supply sources in two seconds", you were first asked for sources on 26 March. It is now 22 June. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

In that summary from March, I see TGeorgescu flatly declaring that any sources for "Christian or conservative viewpoints" will be pre-disqualified. To state that I was "asked" for sources there seems like a falsehood on your part. But I was referring to today's "too few opinions" tag requesting further sources, not something else that was declared by fiat three months ago. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That's blatantly false, because I put no time limit on when you should provide sources at all, never mind "in two seconds", nor insinuate so in any way. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is a stunt that Til Eulenspiegel has pulled time and time again. His M.O. is to show up on a talk page pushing some fringe or extreme minority POV, accuses other editors of censorship, bias and bad faith, and, when asked to provide reliable sources, fails to do so or provides useless fringe sources that do not meet the requirements of out policies, arguing something that boils down to WP:IAR, all policies be damned. He wastes a lot of other editors' time, and the result is indistinguishable from common trolling. It is very disruptive and tendentious. Particularly irritating is his penchant for turning content and policy disagreements into personal disagreements, focusing on editors rather than on content or policy. I have warned him about WP:NPA in the past, and this time as well. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Except that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. are not "some fringe or extreme minority POV" except from your perspective, which is rather curious... that's basically the problem we're having. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Note that in fact I am not pushing any POV and never have. I have consistently been calling for "More POVS" to be included. Those who dominate the talkpage are setting it up so that exclusively their opinion gets included, others get barely a mention, and anyone daring to dissent gets branded a heretic and hauled into the heresy tribunal, everybody pick up a firebrand, blah blah blah yawn. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:11, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

They are fringe or extreme minority as far as scholarly topics like history and archeology are concerned. And your take on them is often fringe or extreme minority even within the religious community. Here's a classic example, complete with you making claims that were demonstrably not held by the religious group in question, attacking other editors, and failing to provide sources: ]. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I dispute your assertion you keep repeating that the religious teachings of churches, synagogues and mosques are a "fringe or extreme minority". I do understand that your goal is to portray these religions' views of the Bible as insignificant, as fringe, as minority, as unworthy of mention, worthy only of marginalization. But you are coopting wikipedia, a neutral project used by everyone across the spectrum, when you expect it to become a vehicle for your polemic agenda. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

(ec)I see four recent edits by Til Eulenspiegel to the article, all about adding a tag because he thinks the religious POV should be prominently included, which seems reasonable enough to me. It might be that a POV fork is actually appropriate for this article, with religious scholarship handled separately from academic inquiry, much like how evolution and creationism are handled. But I have to say, to my layman's eye the academic line doesn't seem very convincing; it reminds me of how everybody said Troy was a myth. (Isn't it possible that "slaves" was a rhetorical exaggeration (or not) used when workers in labor unrest were told they couldn't quit their jobs and do something different? And that the miracle of the parting and flooding at the Red Sea, like Moses drawing water from the rock, involved some (humble and insignificant) involvement of engineers who played with the locks on the ancient Suez Canal that flowed from the Nile?) I don't know this editor, haven't looked at his other edits, I've made no attempt to see if he's had another account, and if you want to make this out as part of a broader pattern of abuse go ahead -- but I'd hate to see somebody get penalized for just a few edits suggesting what seems like a reasonable intent to fairly balance the encyclopedia. Wnt (talk) 05:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I will say this: I agree with you that there is not yet a need for any penalization. But don't limit yourself to looking at the article. When you read the talk page, it becomes very obvious that Til simply doesn't get it. this edit and others in that thread show that Til has both a profound misunderstanding of the neutral point of view as well as a severe battleground mentality. As is shown in that diff and others, Til considers the opinion that his point of view is insignificant to be an attack on his religious beliefs. So Til, if you're reading this, which I assume you will, you should probably just avoid this article in the future. Think about how personally you've been taking this content dispute, and you should realize how biased you really are on this topic, regardless of whether you have a point. But I don't think a few edits on the article and an argument going nowhere on the talk page required an ANI thread. So perhaps this can rest with normal dispute resolution practices unless something really serious arises. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

What am I not getting? I think I got it perfectly right. What I was told by editors on the talk page (in most authoritarian terms) was that any "conservative Christian" views of the Bible would be pre-determined to be inadmissible and insignificant to the article. Oh, but there's no bias here at all, no NPOV violation, nahhh.... It must be just me, eh? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Please read again the policy on due weight. In an article about a historical event, Misplaced Pages is interested in the views of historians, archaeologists, and scholars of other relevant fields. Misplaced Pages is less interested in the views of religious bodies. That is not to say we don't mention them. There is an entire article on The Book of Exodus, which could stand to gain some significant expansion. Some confusion may also arise from the use of the word "fringe". Misplaced Pages's fringe refers to viewpoints that are held by few or no scholars in relevant fields, implies nothing about the total number of people who believe something. You've been on Misplaced Pages for over six years, so I'm surprised I have to explain this to you. If the truth is that you simply don't like it, or you have a radically different interpretation of policy, your only recourse is to seek changes to the policies themselves. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:11, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I work with hundreds of Bible articles and have done so for years. On the standard Bible article, if any denomination or sect has a view or doctrine on the subject, we always give it in due impartiality, without presuming to declare whose theology is "correct" or who is a "heretic" if they dissent. There are only a relatively few notorious POV backwaters like Exodus and Genesis that seem to attract a polemic mentality that says "Christians and Jews views of their own Bible are all disqualified - WE'LL tell them what to believe about it and only our approved sources count. Come here if you want to see an opinion piece written by wikipedians telling you what to believe about the Bible!" Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 06:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Instead of placing tags, why don't you propose additions and boldly add them to the article? Someguy1221 (talk) 06:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Or is this really a whole dramatastic dispute over a couple little words like "consensus"? Someguy1221 (talk) 06:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Why is there a Template:Toofewopinions? Is it never safe to use it? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 06:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

You say there are too few opinions. Other editors disagree. It would help if, on the article's talk page, you actually provided, with sources, the viewpoints being neglected. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

A historicity section in any article is going to consist exclusively of content drawn from actual historians. Due weight is determined by the proportion of adherents amongst respected scholars in the field - the raw number of people who believe in a point of view is irrelevant. If you want to change the policy, you are free to try, but you will be tilting at windmills. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:27, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

If we did start using the raw numbers criteria and a major religion (15 million members) said that the Garden of Eden was located in present-day Jackson County, Missouri, would we have to give that equal weight in our articles about American history? How big does the religion have to be? How about the one that says that the 75 million years ago the Evil Lord Xenu brought billions of his people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs? Is that one big enough? How about the one with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the article, it seems like the disputed perspective goes beyond one section, and although it is a fundamentally religious story in today's society, there is little effort made to say what religious consensus is about the date and place issues. If you're going to write about the Scientology volcano story (see Xenu), you're naturally going to go on in depth about what that group has to say about it, and indeed, that article does. If that article focused only on "what academics think really happened" it would be one of Misplaced Pages's shortest articles. :) Wnt (talk) 05:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The Exodus is an article about the historical migration of Jewish slaves from Egypt to Israel. Book of Exodus is an article about a religious text written about said migration. There could probably be a hatnote at The Exodus explaining this. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:50, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

So Garden of Eden is an article about a historical place in what is now Independence, Missouri, and the Book of Mormon is a religious text written about said location. Gotcha. Unless, of course, you believe all of those pesky historians who say that neither the Exodus or the garden of Eden are historical. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

You know, I look at it again, and I was wrong. Book of Exodus is an article about a religious text, and it needs major expansion. The Exodus is, according to its introduction, an article about a story within the book, and according to the body of the article, an article about historians' opinions of that story. It seems there could be some merging, or splitting, or...something. I don't know. It's like a bait and switch: The intro tells you this is an article about a story, but then spends only one paragraph talking about the story. So you follow the link through to the article on the book the story is in, and that doesn't have much either. And yeah, you make a great point. This sort of split wouldn't work for everything. 90% of article on old testament events would become "ain't nobody got evidence for that". Someguy1221 (talk) 06:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

You want to split off the theology from the evidence that it didn't happen, and that doesn't sound like a POV fork to you? IRWolfie- (talk) 08:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I Don't know what I want, actually. I was simply trying to rationalize the existence of two separate articles, which is already the case. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Till has been consistently pushing fringe views (and was supporting Paul Bedson when he was around), and appears to view himself as the defender of the fringe. What is really needed is an RFCU or someone to file at arbitration enforcement under the pseudoscience discretionary sanctions with the evidence. Can someone please notify me if one is set up, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
• I agree that this user is very problematic and probably he should be topic banned. Cavarrone 10:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I would agree. The editor has been pushing fringe views over a wide variety of articles, so a topic ban ought to include all topics related to religion, history, archeology and fringe and psuedoscience. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Can't see that this incident requires a topic ban. The claim of widespread problems is not currently supported. Such evidence could be gathered at an RfC/U if needed. But really all that seems needed is here is 1) ask the user what additions they want and what sources they are using, and 2) basically ignore the rest if no such specificity is forthcoming (with a reminder of NOTAFORUM). Edit warring and the like might, of course lead to edit warring reports. It is true though that tags and claims that a POV is not adequately represented, actually need specific back-up on the talk page of text proposals and sources, otherwise such tags should be removed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Retrolord personal attacking ad hominem on their userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attempts to remove this attack have been met with harsh responses from the user. PantherLeapord (talk) 05:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

They appear to have a WP:IDHT issue as well... PantherLeapord (talk) 05:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

In no way is this a personal attack. It is a warning and does not in anyway make representations about user:kudpung. Pantherleapord has been asked by me and an admin to stop posting on my userpage. An end to his harrasment of me would be apreciated. ★★RetroLord★★ 05:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It should also be noted there is an ongoing discussion about panther's user conduct on this page. ★★RetroLord★★ 05:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note: user just got off a 3 hour block from User:Worm That Turned. I'd support a longer block for refusal to drop the stick. --Rschen7754 05:27, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Rschen. Clearly you misunderstand the issue. That was for accusations of bullying. Am I not even allowed to have a warning about another user in my own user space? Every time I mention this issue people just pile on and tell me to shut up or get blocked. ★★RetroLord★★ 05:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Anyways, this is not a personal attack, I see no reason why I should be blocked for having a warning about other users on my user page. ★★RetroLord★★ 05:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

This clearly falls afoul of WP:POLEMIC, which lists one sort of prohibited content as "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws." (italics mine) I've removed this content. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why you removed my comment but anyways I said I have removed the offending material. I hope what I've replaced it with isnt a personal attack either?★★RetroLord★★ 05:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Do NOT take credit for another person's work! PantherLeapord (talk) 05:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. What relation does this diff have to the discussion at hand? ★★RetroLord★★ 05:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about removing your comment. I got an edit conflict, but it didn't show me yours, so I didn't know I should try to reconcile the two. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Well this is pretty much resolved. I'd support a close? ★★RetroLord★★ 05:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to to close now, as long as you have taken into account your continued disruption of an RfA after having been told not to, using RfA as a platform for a grievance, false accusations of bullying, lies about being told to change your vote, and making personal attacks. I hope you will also take on board the fact that you have since been blocked, and received warnings and pieces of advice from several admins. That said, your 'ban' comments on your user pages are an utter disgrace to Misplaced Pages and demonstrate nothing less than a complete lack of maturity to anyone who sees it - note well that you yourself cannot even bide with users' requests for you to stay off their talk pages. Your behaviour is unbecoming for collaborative spirit of this encyclopedia, and you can rest assured that I have no desire whatsoever to post on your talk page, except if and when needed in my official capacity as an uninvolved administrator - which I will do without any hesitation. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Kudpung as I have been censored by the adminship of WP I can't actually respond to most of your message, because as Rschen mentions above, that means I haven't dropped the stick. But I will point at that I got the idea of banning from talkpages from you yourself, after you did it to me. Does that by extension make you an 'utter disgrace'? ★★RetroLord★★ 06:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

So can we close it now, with 2 votes for a close and 0 votes against? ★★RetroLord★★ 06:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

There is a vast difference between asking someone civilly to stay off a user's talk page, and posting the nonsense you did on yours and your personal attack above, plus the fact you have posted on my tp yet again. You appear not to be able to drop the stick after all. You've been given a lot of chances over all these issues, and I would prefer to see you getting back to some content editing rather than risking further blocks for WP:IDHT, PA, and whatever else. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:11, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfair and biased topic ban imposed

Bear with me.

1. Context: There is a pair of very controversial articles, namely

   2002 Gujarat violence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

   Godhra train burning (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

   User Darkness Shines is pushing an obnoxious agenda in each one of them. He created Anti-Muslim pogroms in India and vehemently defended it in the DRV, blamed the closer, even when multiple editors tried to make him understand the issue. Darkness was blocked and then unblocked and that unblock was controversial to put it mildly. Let's not forget I told that this editor will not only lead to his own block but also others'. Now, it's no secret that because of some recent changes in his proclivities he has managed to garner a few hardcore sympathizers who would want to see an exclusive and utterly one-sided focus on only anti-Muslim violence in India, who incessantly strive to blindly label every anti-Muslim violence in India as "pogrom". For more on Darkness Shines see this temporary repository.

2. I expanded one article few weeks ago, added literally hundreds of sources, 116 to be exact, but later it was reduced down to 3 sources with an allegation that I have turned it into a political screed by none other than FPaS. And with warning that seemed to me more like a threat that if I try to restore any of it again I will be banned no questions asked, and I didn't because I was scared I didn't want to be banned. I obviously felt bullied. I didn't like it even one bit. Save me all the repetition see this. I have asked him to explain what the problem was, I thought I was working inside my boundaries. Maybe that I could have handled it more finesse but he didn't even bother to explain anywhere what the issues were. Still I refrained from reinstating sourced content into that article because I respect the warning. I don't believe that I have IDHT yet. But when you're met with absolute silence you cannot but here nothing.
3. What happened in the past 24 hours has really managed to put big doubts in my mind about the whole establishment. Now in a separate article 2002 Gujarat violence added other sourced content which I think is pertinent enough and none of the involved editors protested against it (even the extra-scrupulous Darkness Shines let it stay). Again, maybe I am wrong in some subtle way but that is not a ground to assume bad faith on my part? I did not misrepresent the source, I encourage you to check it. I don't believe Misplaced Pages is censored but that belief is steadily languishing. Instead of talking with me or discussing with me, FPaS deemed it okay to ban me based on a subjective pretext for SIX months from any India-Pakistan related article. I have been editing that article for weeks, what happened this time that triggered the ban you may ask, I can only point to this banality. Note What Admin Spartaz wrote:

   ″I'm seeing 4 separate edits and this isn't report worthy. I have more than had of you two guys knocking spots off each other. I'm going to leave you separate messages on your talk pages.″

   And he did it properly. I have no complaints against him.

4. BTW it is only me who is banned, not Darkness Shines whom FPaS himself recently warned by saying, ,

   ″That new article of yours, Anti-Muslim pogroms in India, displays forms of blockworthy tendentious editing and source misrepresentation. If I see you editing like that again, I will ask for a topic ban for you via WP:AE.″

I have in past in this very venue see things that have boggled my mind and yet I am astounded. I was in the middle of a discussion with Dlv999, Sarvajna, DS and Dharmadhyaksha. I don't think I have acted in bad faith, or misrepresented any source deliberately, or behaved uncivilly or any other way tried to disrupt wikipedia in last 7 days. What is the problem that I'm creating? Tell me and give me a chance! Mr T 07:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not going to pretend I understand the subtleties on this affair, but based on the banning admin was WP:INVOLVED in editing the topic area and was in a direct content disagreement with the banned editor. So someone else should impose the ban if it is necessary. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 08:05, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

If you look at it carefully and in detail it is actually dead-simple. Mr T 08:15, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Why was the appeal made here and not at WP:AE using the standard appeal template? The topic ban was issued according to discretionary sanctions for WP:ARBIP. Mathsci (talk) 09:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Discretionary sanctions may also be appealed on ANI and, better yet, on AN (as a personal note, I prefer these venues to AE, but there are fellow Arbs who feel differently). That said, MrT, I'll give you a couple of hours to remove the various personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith from your appeal; after that, you'll be blocked. Salvio 10:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

After that, I will be blocked? WOOW! The things you call personal attacks are observations that are indispensable to my appeal. Most don't get how critical the situation is. Mr T 10:48, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Not that I particularly like this, but I have just blocked MrT for a week. Salvio 10:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

*blink* You did whuh? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Legal and other threats from IP 76.12.126.18

76.12.126.18 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) seems to be making a clear legal threat in this edit. Can someone else review this, please? -- The Anome (talk) 10:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's some more. -- The Anome (talk) 11:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

And this also contains another implied threat, namely: "there is currently rumor that Anons are considering an Operation to thwart further malicious publications from you." -- The Anome (talk) 12:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no comment on the rest of your complaint but I fail to see any implied threat of anon retaliation ops in the last diff you provide. ★★RetroLord★★ 12:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It's in the last sentence of the first paragraph of the diff, quote: "Your avid discomfort in the truth is leading to an investigation into your own bias toward Spamhaus and/or Cloudflare and there is currently rumor that Anons are considering an Operation to thwart further malicious publications from you." -- The Anome (talk) 12:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Alright I see it now. Well the threats certainly exist as you say. We should proceed as we usually do with IP-legal threat accounts then. ★★RetroLord★★ 12:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm still not seeing a legal threat. "Leading to an investigation"? Where? On Misplaced Pages? In my livingroom? Not even an attempt to chill the conversation - more trying to huff and puff about something, plus a little WP:OWN (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you conflating issues. The threat mentioned is the suggestion of retaliation by 'Anonymous' in some form, obviously not legal action but most likely some other form of action, itself potentially illegal. The investigation thing wasn't AFAIK of so much concern although we taken together with the earlier suggestions of legal action seem to be problematic. While technically the claim was not in the form 'we will do this' but in the form 'someone else will do this' it would likely have the same chilling effect and since it's referring to retaliation it's a fairly questionable warning if taken seriously. The legal threat is the claims of libel, including the statement "The Homogeneous Party, a registered Political Party in the State of Florida and we will not tolerate deliberate libel to be published on your site and you continue to revise corrections that mitigate the damages of libel" which implies not just that they feel they are being libelled but that they are considering legal action. Nil Einne (talk) 15:48, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Since this is also about me, can I just add that I really can't take these IP's messages seriously and aren't in the least bothered?  Yintan  13:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikihounding and Repeated Harrassment by User:AmericanDad86

I'm sorry this is coming up again.

Quite recently I opened an ANI case regarding User:AmericanDad86's conduct towards me. AD86 was blocked in late March for disruptive editing and personal attacks. Despite this, User:Blackmane closed my ANI filing claiming that it stemmed from a content rather than conduct dispute. That said, when I asked Blackmane for clarification, they cited a lack of admin involvement and acknowledged that there had been incivility (User Talk:Blackmane#Cofused), though they also recommended that I pursue this as a content dispute and go to DRN. I did so, and the finding there was in my favor regarding the content matter, though AD86 neglected to participate and little was said regarding their conduct, which admittedly would have been off-topic.

Both before and after the DRN filing AD86 continued to make, IMO, incivil and inappropriate comments regarding their views of my conduct: , , , . This despite being encouraged to desist by other editors: , .

I had nevertheless hoped that AD86 might move on once that dispute tapered off, but they have once again begun participating in a Talk page discussion and are showing an inability or unwillingness to focus on content rather than contributor. Given the fact that they have never contributed to the underlying article, it is very difficult for me to believe that this is anything other than wikihounding by AD86.

It seems clear to me that despite AD86's claim of wanting nothing to do with me, they in fact are interested in actively harassing me. Please review this and take whatever actions you deem necessary to get this disruptive behavior to stop. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I only went through some of the diffs and saw nothing particularly shocking. What I DID see though was accusations of you forum and admin shopping. What say you? ★★RetroLord★★ 12:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I was really hoping that I would not be pulled into this madness and that this had been concluded, so I'm still perplexed to have received an invitation to this incident. After all, I only provided my input on the American Dad! talk page once.

Anyways, on the subject matter, I would like to give my input. I would argue that Doniago may have reacted explosively to this dispute in the first place in a conflict that could have been avoided in a much less convoluted manner. However, I did look at AmericanDad86's latest contributions, which includes visits to Doniago's frequent collaborations and was shocked to see that AmericanDad86 has indeed been looking to discredit and salt Doniago's credibility, based solely on their past dispute. I will continue to be scarcely involved with this ongoing dispute, but I find this conduct unacceptable. DarthBotto _talk•cont 12:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It would seem both parties are at fault then. ★★RetroLord★★ 12:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I am willing to acknowledge that I may have overreacted to the initial dispute, but I certainly have not made any effort to follow AD86's contribution history beyond the scope of their disagreements with me, nor have I ever accused them of "whining" or otherwise made any conscious attempt to miscast their editing patterns. DonIago (talk) 12:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I was a DRN volunteer which helped with this when it was lodged as a DRN case, I would largely agree with DarthBotto's summary, the content matter is over and done with, AD86 should now WP:DROPTHESTICK / WP:LETGO and get back to editing. -- Nbound (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Consensus reached? AD86 drops the stick and we all forget about it? Time to close this? ★★RetroLord★★ 12:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That's all I'm looking for, but thus far, as I noted in my initial post, they've seemed unwilling or unable to change their behavior even when asked by other editors to chill out. But again, as long as they stop targeting me (and ideally don't treat other editors in the same manner) I'm content. DonIago (talk) 12:44, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Close on the basis that this is a warning to ALL involved parties that this behaviour MUST stop or there WILL be sanctions. Can we agree on that? ★★RetroLord★★ 12:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me, probably best with the addition of user warning templates (eg. Template:Uw-npa3 or Template:Uw-disruptive3, or as otherwise appropriate) -- Nbound (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Errrrr...we're closing a complaint as having consensus, even though one of the parties has not even participated? How exactly does that happen? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The dispute seems fairly minor, but your right it was an oversight on my part. ★★RetroLord★★ 13:27, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• I would be interested in hearing AmericanDad's reason for intervening here. The stats at the Sherlock Holmes article show that AmericanDad has never edited the article. If he's tracking Doniago through his contribution history then Doniago has a legitimate harrassment concern, and that needs to stop. I encounter Doniago quite often and his edits have always appeared sound to me, and since I have never encountered AmericanDad before it would be unfair of me to judge him either way; but if he has genuine concerns about Doniago's editing patterns—in fact any editor's editing behavior—then he should raise them at RfC/U rather than engaging them on articles that don't come under his editing concern. Betty Logan (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive IP behavior + an unwillingness to communicate.

For the past several weeks I've been dealing with the edits from the IP address 222.237.20.155, who has been removing arcade system information from a handful of articles such as Marvel vs. Capcom: Clash of the Super Heroes and Giga Wing. I would have reported this at blatant vandalism but, looking at his other edits, the IP does seem to be interested in improving various articles and appears to be acting in good faith. However, despite multiple reversions asking for explanations and various warnings on his talk page, I have yet to hear anything from him as to why he's removing the arcade system info. I've checked myself and I've made sure that the removed info was correct and that the arcade infobox still supported info on what system was used. I really don't want to have to revert his edits every few weeks but I would like some help in establishing communication with him. TheStickMan 15:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has been blocked in Togo, and parts of Benin.

Dear Sir/Ladies

I can confirm to you today, that English language Misplaced Pages, and the French, Swedish editions, have been blocked by all ISP and governmental servers in the Republic of Togo, and small areas of the Republic of Benin. We have had reports coming in to our journalism office in Ghana that this is the case.

--Togolaís Díplomátique (talk) 17:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for letting us know. Do you have any idea whom we may have offended? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

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