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Vertical space, specifically in the "footer"

There are one or two editors who have devoted at least a few hundred separate edits to the reduction of vertical space in articles, often at the end of the article, between the text of the last section (external links, references) and usually the first navbox template (but sometime just above other "footer" elements like the bottom of the page itself, category or other tags like persondata). The type of vertical spacing removed is most often a simple double blank line, but other kinds like {{-}}, <br> and variations, or a double blank like containing one HTML comment are also among the constructs eliminated. Does the MOS make any recommendations in this regard? I've searched the archives, but couldn't find anything conclusive... 86.121.18.17 (talk) 20:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

This RfC gained consensus that the blank space you are talking about (below the last link of ==External links==, for example) is not to be added. Note that bots do remove the blank space you are talking about so adding spacing would be oppositional and disruptive.Curb Chain (talk) 08:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite see the consensus there, well, for anything. You certainly supported your own proposal. User:SMcCandlish opposed adding it to the MOS ans so did User:Apteva although the latter seemed to like the whitespace, but wanted it added via the nav templates themselves. (Is this even feasible?) User:Victor Yus also preferred the visuals with whitespace; he also opposed your article edits removing the spaces. User:Izno opposed your proposed addition to MOS but he also opposed the "mass addition of spacing". User:Beyond My Ken supported adding them manually at least to some articles. User:Rich Farmbrough and User:Agnosticaphid did not have a clear opinion on the visuals, but agreed with you that site-wide solution is desirable. Rich even said a site-wide solution was already introduced by CSS, but even you, Curb Chain, seem to think no such thing is currently in place. That doesn't read like much of a consensus to me. Some issues were confounded, so it's probably best to separate them. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 11:30, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:ORDER (version of 14:07, 2 June 2013) treats navigation templates and persondata sections and category sets and stub templates as sections. MOS:HEAD (version of 20:37, 16 June 2013) says "Include one blank line above the heading, and optionally one blank line below it, for readability in the edit window." These entities lack headings in the usual sense, so a blank line would be placed immediately above the border or content of any one of them.

—Wavelength (talk) 14:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, since they have no heading, it's also wikilegal to have, for example:

 Last sentence of the article.
 <!-- mandatory blank line before the nonexistent heading -->
 <!-- no real heading (zero-length) --><!-- optional blank line after the nonexistent heading -->
 {{some nav template}}

That gives two separating blank lines, the 2nd one being optional, but MOS-valid.86.121.18.17 (talk) 20:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Also I'm not sure if those rules imply anything about

 Last sentence of the article.
 {{-}}
 <!-- mandatory blank line before the nonexistent heading -->
 <!-- no real heading (zero-length) -->{{some nav template}}

because {{-}} is not a blank line in code-editing mode. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm suprised that you would make the claim that "one or two editors" make these edits. They are completely covered by MOS, so I'm not surprised that I'm only aware of one of two editors that do add these whitespaces: One admits that he has bad eyesight, the other only ever mention "better looks" for a reason.

• First and formost: "Modifications in font size, blank space, and color are an issue for the Misplaced Pages site-wide style sheet, and should be reserved for special cases only." - That alone makes it clear that any ad-hoc style changes should be avoided.
• Later on, the MOS explicitly forbids exactly these comments: "Check that your invisible comment does not inadvertently change the formatting, for example by introducing white space in read mode."
• There is also Help:Whitespace: "Comments in the wikicode added by can contribute to whitespace. Format the comment to avoid this, "
• Last, Help:Hidden text makes exactly the same point: "Inappropriate uses for hidden text Creating whitespace."

The first point is the most important. While the other three might go either way, the first point can't really be any different: The alternative would be that every article would constantly be battled for formatting, with devastating effects (among others) to WP:ACCESS and mobile devices.

There is no other way, if you want to change the space, go change the style sheet. --91.10.19.240 (talk) 19:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Technical question

Is there a feasible, site-wide solution by which the amount of spacing above the first nav-box can be set? (Keep in mind that navboxes can be part of a stack.) 86.121.18.17 (talk) 11:30, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

We already have a site-wide CSS rule that goes

ol + table.navbox, ul + table.navbox { margin-top: 0.5em; }

- what this says is "when a navbox follows either a numbered list or a bulleted list, make sure there is at least 0.5em of space between the list and the navbox". That 0.5em could be increased to a larger value. If the problem only shows when a navbox follows some other structure, we could broaden the selectors to cover other elements besides ol and ul which might precede the navbox. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:16, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Does that actually do anything? I don't see any vertical spacing difference between and . 86.121.18.17 (talk) 13:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, looking very carefully, I observed the opposite effect: the actual list seems to have one or two pixels less space in Firefox. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Your first example doesn't use a list, this is true; but HTMLTidy has wrapped the word "something" in a <p>...</p> element, which has a bottom margin of 6px. If you have Firefox version 21 (not FF v 19, I'm not sure about FF v 20) you can verify these figures by using the "Inspect element" feature: right-click on the word "something", select "Inspect Element (Q)", and at bottom right, click the "Box Model tab. That produces a series of nested rectangles, with their dimensions. In the centre there will be the space allocated to the word "something" - for me it's 1083x19, although the first figure will differ with various monitor sizes and resolutions. Below that is a zero, this is the padding-bottom:; directly below that is a 6, this is the margin-bottom:. Next, in the box at lower left, click on the row directly below the </p> - this should be <table class="navbox" style="border-spacing:0;" cellspacing="0"> - and observe that the box model now shows "auto" as the value for margin-top:.

Now switch to your second example, and repeat the exercise: you should find that the </li> has a bottom margin of 1 and the <table> has a top margin of 5. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure I understand you, but I've tried in IE 10 as well, with the same result. So the extra CSS spacing, even if it is working as intended code-wise, does not add any extra spacing from the user's perspective; the spacing looks the same as after a normal paragraph (because a <p>...</p> paragraph has some vertical spacing after it, but a list element does not have any, so the "+" space between a list element and a navbox just compensates for that lack of trailing space, minus a pixel or so). 86.121.18.17 (talk) 20:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, it can be demonstrated, but you'll need to register an account. When you are logged in, go to Special:MyPage/common.css and add the following line:

ol + table.navbox, ul + table.navbox { margin-top: 5em; }

- it's just like the earlier example except that is specifies a much deeper gap, so that you can see the effect. Having saved that, view your two examples from before - the one without the bullet should be unchanged, the one with the bullet should show a gap ten times as deep as previous. Of course, ten times the size is somewhat in excess of what people will really want, but it demonstrates that it can be done. The gap may be set to any value that is legal for a length in CSS. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Esthetic question

How much extra space should there be above the first navbox? It seems the main choices here are "none" and "one extra blank line", although if a more fine-grained approach is technically feasible, by all means specify in your favorite typographic units. (By the general MOS rule, if there is no site-wide consensus on how much, it will "defer to the style used by the first major contributor" in any given article.) 86.121.18.17 (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's my opinion on this. If you look at Edgewood Arsenal experiments#External links you see that most vertical space is between the last actual paragraph and the "See also" section. There is a bit less vertical space between the "See also" and "References", probably because the list elements don't have space after, whereas the paragraph element does (as discussed with Redrose64 above). There is slightly more space after the multi-column References list. The least vertical space of all is between the "External links" list elements and navboxes! This makes the navboxes look as is they are part of the last section (whichever that may happen to be), rather than be a section of their own. So, I think the CSS spacing above navboxes should be increased to make it look like the spacing between the paragraph element and the heading element. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 23:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

As another comparison, if you look at The Japan Times#External links, an article with no navboxes, there is considerably more space after the last EL element when it's followed by just the categories box. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 02:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

That space is not due to the bulleted list of external links, nor to any part of the article text. The category box (which should be present in every article - if it isn't, give the article an {{uncategorised}}) has class=catlinks which includes the styling margin-top: 1em;. You'll find a gap of similar size above the category box in articles with navboxes, such as Didcot Parkway railway station. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:52, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that the list was causing the extra space. But I did find the more generous space above the category box more pleasing. Since that one is 1em, I suggest that the CSS "plus space" between list elements and navboxes also be increased to 1em (from the current value of 0.5em). 86.121.18.17 (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

As one of the primary editors who have argued for the need for visual space separating navboxes from the text of the final hierarchical section (usually "External links"), I do not think that it's necessary to have a full blank line there -- I'd be happy with, say, the equivalent of half a line. The only reason I use a full line is that it's the only way I know of to provide the visual separation that the system provides (for instance) to every hierarchical section to set them off from the text above. Not being familiar with the coding of these things, I don't know how much space is provided for each new section, but whatever it is should be sufficient to set off the navboxes from the text above and dissipate the visual crowding that results if there is no space. The navboxes are, in effect, a new section without a header (and attempts by other editors to add a header to them have been consistently rejected), and they need the same kind of spacing that any other new section is given. Because navboxes are a relatively new addition, and dealing with them has been something of an afterthought, that spacing has never been integrated into the system, but I'm pleased to hear that it is technically possible to do so, and urge that it be adopted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Contiguous vs. continental United States

Has there been any discussion on what term to use to refer to the contiguous United States?? "Continental" literally includes Alaska, so I suggest we use "contiguous". Any disagreements?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It is more of a vocabulary question than a style question. But yes... "Contiguous" is the correct term when referring to the "Lower 48 States" that directly boarder on other States... while "Continental" is used when including Alaska, but not Hawaii. Blueboar (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding MOS:LQ

I am seeking clarification regarding the proper method for including/excluding punctuation in quoted material. For examples:

• "Lindsay Planer of Allmusic describes the song as a 'scathing rocker' in which lyrically Harrison 'forgoes his trademark arid wit for a decidedly more acerbic and direct approach'."

• "Leng praises the performance of all the musicians on the recording, particularly Keltner, and describes it as 'one of Harrison's most accomplished pieces'."

While both of the terminal punctuation points are included in the quoted material, User:Stfg has recently informed me that these periods should be placed outside the quote marks. What is the best practice? In the 16th edition of CMOS, section 6.9: Punctuation in relation to closing quotations marks, it states, "Periods and commas precede closing quotation marks, whether double or single ... This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906)."(p.309) Also, CMOS gives this example: "Growing up, we always preferred to 'bear those ills we have.' 'Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,' she replied."(p.309) In the example they include both the comma and the terminal punctuation point inside the quote marks. Any thoughts? GabeMc 23:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion we had about it on my talk page is here, where difficulties in the wording of MOS:LQ are described. I'd welcome clarification too. --Stfg (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't you mean to say: "I'd also welcome clarification"? GabeMc 05:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

• From New Hart's Rules (Oxford University Press, 2005): "In US practice, commas and full points are set inside the closing quotation mark regardless of whether they are part of the quoted material ... This style is also followed in much of British fiction and journalism."(p.155) GabeMc 00:13, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From Fowler's Modern English Usage (Oxford University Press, 2004): "All signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks must be placed according to sense. If an extract ends with a point ... let that point be included before the closing quotation mark; but not otherwise."(p.646) GabeMc 00:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The Cambridge Guide to English Usage (Cambridge University Press, 2004): "In American style ... always goes inside the quotes, as also for most Canadian editors ... The North American practice (put it inside) is still the easiest to apply".(p.455) GabeMc 00:32, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The Economist Style Guide (online): "For the relative placing of quotation marks and punctuation, follow Hart's rules. Thus, if an extract ends with a full stop or question-mark, put the punctuation before the closing inverted commas." GabeMc 00:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The Times Style and Usage Guide (Time Books, 2003): "Punctuation marks go inside the inverted commas if they relate to the words quoted".(p.139) GabeMc 00:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage (Three Rivers Press, 1999): "Periods and commas, in American usage, always go inside the closing quotation marks, regardless of grammatical logic."(p.280) GabeMc 00:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The Associated Press Stylebook (Basic Books, 2011): "Placement with other punctuation: Follow these long-established printers' rules: —The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks."(p.381) GabeMc 00:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From the MLA Handbook (7th edition, 2009): "By convention, commas and periods that directly follow quotations go inside the closing quotation marks."(p.103) GabeMc 01:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
• From The UPI Style Book & Guide to Newswriting (Martin, Cook, 2004): "The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks."(p.208) GabeMc 01:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

"The North American practice (put it inside) is still the easiest to apply"—I don't understand why it's "the easiest". This list demonstrates that it's not really a trans-Atlantic issue. And some US academic journals, I believe, insist the other way round. Are the double quotes from your initial examples, or did you insert them for the purpose of this thread? Tony (talk) 00:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Tony, I'm not sure what you mean. I quoted several style guides and so I put the quoted material inside double quotes. This thread isn't about whether or not we should use single or double inverted commas, its about whether or not commas and periods should be placed inside quoted material when they appear there in the original source. GabeMc 00:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

You have confused your point by requoting the material. Here are you two pieces and my reactions:

• Lindsay Planer of Allmusic describes the song as a "scathing rocker" in which lyrically Harrison "forgoes his trademark arid wit for a decidedly more acerbic and direct approach".

I'd put the period back inside, since the quote seems to be clearly a sentence ending there.

• Leng praises the performance of all the musicians on the recording, particularly Keltner, and describes it as "one of Harrison's most accomplished pieces".

I'd leave that one outside, since the material quoted is just a noun phrase, even if it was originally at the end of a sentence. Dicklyon (talk) 00:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Tony, re your above comment: "I don't understand why it's 'the easiest'." See Dicklyon's above comments. If placement is situational, then the rules are inherently more complex. This thread is some proof of that, since Dicklyon and Stfg obviously do not agree and since Stfg reverted me under the assumption that he was correct and that I wasn't. So how could we expect newer editors to understand the distinction if two of our finest veterans cannot agree? Hence, it would be simpler/easier to just follow the advice from the UK and US style guides, IMO. GabeMc 01:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, principals that require thought are in some sense less "easy". But applying thought come naturally to some; it's not hard. Where people disagree on which is most logical, it probably doesn't matter much. Dicklyon (talk) 02:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm concerned about inserting punctuation that isn't there in the original that is being quoted; and the disjuncture between everyone's treatment (of parenthetical wording), and "of quoted material." I have also seen sentence-level commas inserted into ''an italicised portion,'' which is a bit weird, isn't it? Tony (talk) 02:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

As I understand the principle ;p of LQ, it’s to prevent a false inference that a stop comes from the source text. I don’t think it demands that they always be reproduced: whether or not to include them, at least where the quotation comprises less than a full sentence, should be a matter for the writer’s discretion. I read Fowler’s “according to sense” above as referring not only to preservation of the original meaning, but also to the manner in which the quotation is integrated with the framing sentence.—Odysseus1479 02:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Please see my reference—Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 140#Glaring grammar error in a policy here (WP:LQ) (May 2013)—to comments by Noetica in February 2010 (Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113#Noetica's advice).

—Wavelength (talk) 03:05, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I think the usage of the so-called "American Style" and "British style" for quoted items depends on whether or not the quoted material is a full sentence. If the quoted material is a full sentence, then the punctuation goes before the last quotation mark. If the quoted material is not a full sentence, punctuation goes after the last quotation mark. That way, "American Style" can be for full-sentence quotes, and "British Style" for non-full-sentence quotes.

Why was it even established that, in the "American style", punctuation has to go before the last quotation mark every time, regardless of whether the quote is a full sentence or just a fragment? Jim856796 (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

The usual story is that it has something to do with not breaking small pieces of movable type. I have never really understood why it was supposed to help, and the story may be nonsense for all I know, but it is at least the story one hears. --Trovatore (talk) 20:57, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, as for example in the alt.usage.english FAQ (although sometimes it’s not breakage but movement that’s said to be the problem). The only reason given by Fowler for what he calls the “conventional” style (which he didn’t favour) is “on the ground that this has a more pleasing appearance” (second ed. Gowers). Some stronger language of his, probably from the first edition, is quoted on that FAQ page.—Odysseus1479 23:33, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

The history of American-style quotation and punctuation rules is as described but not really relevant anymore. I prefer a more logicial approach, in which sentences that are entirely in quotes have their punctuation similarly enclosed. Similarly, if punctuation "belongs" to the quoted text then it should be quoted. That being said, I disagree with Dicklyon's analysis of the first example; since the quoted text is a sentence fragment then the period logically belongs outside the quotes to end the entire sentence (and not just the quoted material). In practice, I almost always leave the period outside when quoting a sentence fragment but that's a personal preference. As to why the American rules are "easier", well I guess that's because it makes arguments such as mine with Dicklyon moot. :-) Peace, Dusty|💬|You can help! 15:41, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the solution is to place the disputed marks above one another, thus: This style is "easier." Or perhaps not – what would editors do without such disputes to occupy their time? :-) (Anyway it probably doesn't work in all browsers.) Peter coxhead (talk) 16:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

The current rule on Misplaced Pages is use the British rules in all articles, even ones otherwise written in American English. This rule shouldn't be in place because it flat-out requires incorrect punctuation, but it is in place. Here's how to use it:

Misplaced Pages's required practice: Because you are quoting complete sentences, place the periods according to sense. That would be outside the single quotes but inside the double quotes, as Dicklyon describes.

But your actual question was best practice. Best practice would be replacing WP:LQ and using an ENGVAR-based rule in which, if the article were written in a national variety of English that follows American practice, to put the periods inside both the single and double quotation marks.

As for preventing false inferences, think about this: Can you name one time, on Misplaced Pages or off, when you've ever witnessed or heard of anyone getting confused or making a mistake because of American English punctuation? It's even less often than someone thinking that "centre" is pronounced "sen-treh." In the absence of any difference in performance, "this is more logical" boils down to "I happen to like this more." It's perfectly valid to have personal preferences, as Dusty puts it, but we shouldn't base rules on them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be complicated at all. The question should be simply: is the punctuation part of the quoted material, or not? If it is, it belongs inside the quotes; if not, it goes outside. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Another way of thinking about it is that . (for example) goes exactly where ? or ! would go. Did he say "No"? → He said "No". She said "Why should I do it?" → She said "I should do it."

(However, I still believe that articles written in American English should be consistent and use what is clearly standard American punctuation.) Peter coxhead (talk) 19:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about that example, PC. "No" can be a complete sentence, and that would place the period inside the quotation marks under British rules. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:15, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure. The point is that when the placement of . is determined by the same considerations as the placement of ? or ! there are the same choices: He said "No"! (surprise at what he said) or He said "No!" (he spoke forcefully). Type setters' quotation makes it simpler for . and , but doesn't affect the other punctuation marks. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Re: "The current rule on Misplaced Pages is use the British rules in all articles, even ones otherwise written in American English." Is this statement accurate? If so, why? GabeMc 20:20, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It's accurate but, in my view, misstated. The correct statement is, "use logical punctuation in all articles, including those written (not 'otherwise written') in American English". Using logical punctuation does not prevent the text from being in American English. --Trovatore (talk) 21:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

The statement is entirely accurate. "British punctuation" is also called "logical punctuation," and many of the regulars on this board prefer the second name. I find it a bit of a misnomer. The most logical way to write is the way that will be understood by one's readers and present the material well, and the two practices have little in the way of measurable differences in those two respects.

Using British punctuation prevents the text from being in correct American English, just as spelling "harbor" with a U prevents it from being in correct American spelling.

As for why the rule is in place, it's because many regulars on this board like British style a lot more than they like American style. I also dug through the archives and found one reference to a compromise between American and British English, the idea that Misplaced Pages would use double quotes all the time (under the mistaken belief that British punctuation requires single quotes) in exchange for using British punctuation around quotation marks. My personal take on the matter is that a disproportionate number of early Wikipedians were computer programmers, and using British style can be advantageous when dealing with raw strings of characters. However, that advantage disappears when the reader is a human being instead of a computer. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

It is in fact misstated. So-called "American" punctuation is not American at all; it was used in Britain until not so long ago. Typography is not the same thing as spelling — typesetting is arguably not part of the language at all. We should use logical punctuation because it is, in fact, more logical, at least in the sense that it more closely reflects the underlying logic of the sentence. That is not in and of itself the same as being more "logical" in the sense of being the more rational choice; that's a separate issue, but my position on that one is clear. --Trovatore (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Trovatore, to the extent that the various British and American style guides describe the differences between predominant style of quotation punctuation used in the United States and Canada and the system used by a majority in Britain, they invariably refer to them as "American style" and "British style." The phrase "logical quotation" is virtually never used in the reliable sources. You can call it whatever you want, but let's at least acknowledge what the actual sources call the two different systems. As for whether there is a distinct American style, at last count there were only two significant American style guides among literally dozens that advocate the use of British style/logical quotation. So, please let's acknowledge that reality and stop pretending that the American style is not the predominant system in both Canada and the United States. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is the predominant system in the US. Nevertheless it is not "American". As an American I object to having my country's name associated with an inferior punctuation scheme, even if (unfortunately) it is the one most used here. --Trovatore (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, Trovatore, you may call the American style whatever you want as a matter of personal preference, but let's also acknowledge that The Chicago Manual of Style, The New York Times, The Cambridge Guide to English Usage and numerous other American and British style books call them "American style" and the "British style" . . . Mind you, these "sources" are not five guys having an argument about inferior and most used punctuation schemes, but this is what actual reliable sources call the two different systems of quotation punctuation. I might add that virtually none of the reliable sources call the majority British practice "logical quotation"; that seems to be a relatively obscure phrase someone on Misplaced Pages latched onto for obvious reasons. I'm happy to consider any sources others may produce on point, and trade PDF copies of relevant excerpts from the 25+ American and Canadian style books I have accumulated over the past three weekends. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I stand by all my statements. It may well be that those manuals call it American. --Trovatore (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead of seven paragraphs

I need a quick third opinion as to whether the current lead of Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (seen here) is MOS-compliant. It consists of seven paragraphs of one or two sentences apiece. Is this acceptable under WP:LEADLENGTH and WP:PARAGRAPH? It seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm being too rigid in my reading of these guidelines. Thanks, -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I would absolutely condense those graphs to no more than four. GabeMc 03:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Is that only your opinion or do you believe that article's Introduction is not MOS-compliant? Would bulletpointing help? SMP0328. (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

It is my opinion that the lead is not currently MoS compliant and I would not advise the use of bulletpointing for the same reason. GabeMc 03:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Brief informative headings

This is a reminder for the attention of all editors of WT:MOS or of any other talk page. Brief informative headings (and subheadings, and so forth) help all of us to use the table of contents (of a talk page, either active or archived) and to follow changes to watchlisted pages. A simple glance at a heading in a table of contents or in a watchlist can often be enough to help an editor to decide whether to investigate a discussion further.
A heading does not need to contain every detail describing a discussion, but should contain enough information to convey, as narrowly as it can within practical limits, the scope of the discussion. Attitudinal words (whether they are positive or neutral or negative) are generally wasted words when they are in a heading. Topical words help to identify the topic of a discussion.
Subheadings can often be more challenging than main headings, but concise informativeness can be achieved when a subheading repeats briefly some or all of the main heading and then adds information specific to the section. A subheading "Arbitrary break" appearing in a watchlist (or in a link on a talk page) contains very little useful information.
Concise informativeness is a skill to be developed by practice. (If any professional instructor is reading this, then that person can incorporate the teaching of this skill into the report-writing part of the teaching program. The benefits of that skill can be applied to e-mail subject lines and to advertising and marketing.)
Here are links to archived discussions.

• Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 120#Informative headings and subheadings (March 2011)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 114#Informative headings, subheadings, sub-subheadings, etc. (March 2010)

Here is an external link to additional information.

• Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines

Brief informative headings in WT:MOS can help me (or anyone else) to maintain Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register. Brief informative headings can help all of us to use that page and Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory efficiently. I understand that, when there is an issue raised about a style guideline, editors can be "caught up in the present moment" and unaware of unintended consequences. However, I request help from all editors so that those pages can be maintained and used with minimal time being spent in studying future past discussions. Then, when a discussion will have been archived, it will be more accessible and more easily documented. Past discussions are in the past, but henceforth we can all spend time in forming brief informative headings.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)