Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:04, 2 July 2013

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Consider other means of dispute resolution first
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • If the issue concerns use of admin tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Disruptive talk page notices by User:SPECIFICO

SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

As noted elsewhere, User:SPECIFICO explicitly has stated he is an Austrian School economist who thinks those connected to the Ludwig von Mises Institute which he sees as a competing economics faction are "hijackers" and "multi-level marketing" schemers. He has made biased edits and reverts on several related articles and his POV is so strong he fails or refuses per IDIDNTHEARTHAT to understand clear explanations of policy. He now has taken to leaving me eight questionable and even baseless Talk page "Notices" over the last two weeks, including three under one header, that look like attempts to disrupt my comments and editing. He is starting to do this as well to User talk:Id4abel who also has problems with his editing on these articles.

• June 15: Edit warring warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Jesús Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#SOTO.

This was a false accusation of 3rr where I had to explain his own edit warring to him.

• June 20: Three different warning notices at once regarding this diff at an RfC on another topic, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Section_header.

I did launch into a general soapbox discussion of editing issues, but it obviously was not a personal attack on another editor, one who I was quite unfamiliar with. And I did strike it.

• June 21: Disruptive editing warning regarding this diff at WP:OR Noticeboard, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#OR_noticeboard.

Because I complained about User:SPECIFICO coming to the WP:OR noticeboard to dismiss policy issues and refusing to discuss policy. See the seven section discussion of his WP:OR entries to Huerta de Soto article.

• June 26: Edit warring complaint regarding this diff at Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Skousen.

My first revert of WP:OR discussed at both Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#More_WP:OR_using_Skousen and Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#Removal_of_Barry-related_WP:OR.2FSynth.

• June 27: Edit war warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Murray Rothbard article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Rothbard.

My first revert of new POV controversial material. The article had been protected for two days previously because of my June 2 3rr/Edit Warring complaint about User:SPECIFICO trying to denigrate Rothbard. This time SPECIFICO was removing the fact that Rothbard is an economist from the first sentence, despite four solid refs saying so and despite previous talk page rejection of such a suggestion. This is a prime example of his extreme bias against competing Austrian economists which leads to his disruptive editing.

• June 28: Off topic personal remarks warning regarding this diff at Murray Rothbard RfC, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#June_2013.

After taking my advice to start an RfC on Rothbard as an economist, SPECIFICO objected that I wrote "Sources are what counts on Misplaced Pages, not editors' personal opinions and WP:OR." (This in reply to his criticizing my RfC support for economist.)

Thanks for any help. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 19:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note At first glance, there does seem to be some merit as to the unnecessary aggressiveness. I don't have time to dig deep tonight, but hopefully someone will. Bumping because they needs to be addresses and not just archived. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carolmooredc Addition: Thinking about it, realized the last three talk page notices came after I put a talk page message about Wikihounding on his talk page (corrected at this diff) because he followed me in 30 hours to 4 pages he had not edited before and there either reverted me or left a negative comment. So maybe this became his new mode of harassment. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  Editor SPECIFICO seems to be in a habit of handing out Warning with citations to WP policies to any user who has reverted his change as seen here or here or here or here(even this editor warned him for wiki hounding) (and might be many more - as edit history for user talk shows a persistent trend of showering warning to a particular editor for a period of time and then moving on to some one else - depending on who he is having an argument with) -as this usually seems to happen to any editor he might be involved in argument over content - Carol Moore just might be his recent favorite.  A m i t  ❤  17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand this should be read through for the history these two editors have had  A m i t  ❤  18:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

: FYI, I do refer to that ANI in my June 27th entry above. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit history shows a campaign to revise articles that touch upon Austrian Economics to push readers toward viewing that school of economics as a crank theory. Supposedly SPECIFICO is an Austrian economist so this whole thing makes little sense. I live in a mostly free country where people are allowed to support most any view they like, and advocate that view to others, but Misplaced Pages has different goals. The wikihounding that followed has not yet reached epic proportions, but it has grown well into the realm of unacceptable. Using reasonable sounding edit descriptions that conceal the actual actions taken, making a few useful edits to make finding the dishonest ones harder, citing respected sources and half sticking to what the sources actually said, deleting a claim with a valid cited source and attempting to defend the delete with no source whatsoever, and so on. It is masterful gaming of the system. I applaud the intelligence behind the campaign. There is dedication and craftiness that would be one of the biggest assets ever if applied to improving articles rather than used to push unsupported propaganda against a theory onto an unfamiliar population.

My first encounter with this editor was at 20:42 on 8 June 2013 where I replaced uncited and badly slanted text with cited text that better follows the neutrality policy within the Hans-Hermann Hoppe article. I think the second encounter is when the wikihounding began. This is were I think this Misplaced Pages system has a giant flaw in that it is much easier for an editor dedicated to making the article push one point of view rather than easier for the collaborative effort that Wikipiedia is supposed to encourage.

The first abuse of the edit war warning only resulted in a prolonged argument about how the three revert rule means whatever SPECIFICO says that it means.

The second abuse of the edit war warning had no response from SPECIFICO at all. Abel (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User Abel's analysis of User:Specifico's modus operandi is excellent, though it would take a huge WP:ANI to document it all with diffs. It's just easier to document the most obviously behavioral manifestations.

As we all know, such subtle disruptive/tenditious editing can cause a lot of anger, hurts collaboration and can lead to edit warring. I'm quite burned out after a couple months of it with User:Specifico and barely have the energy to finish off several new or improved sections on articles on other topics that were interrupted when I first noticed this destructive editing pattern on a couple articles I've watched for a few years, as well as related BLPs. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 04:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion, supported by my inspection of his editions and my encounters in talk pages with him, he doesn't edit articles about austrianism trying to enhance the material, with definitions, perspectives, and critics in a neutral way. Instead, I believe he destroy the articles when he tries to harm the intelectual reputation of austrian thinkers. He doesn't respect Misplaced Pages policies about consensus and references in the way to achieve the goal of destroy those reputations, and his way to talk to users is totally wrong, it seems he believes he is an battle field with "enemies" that should be exterminate. I don't know if he is concious of the diference of an hostile schoolar debate and what are the porpouses of Misplaced Pages talks.--Sageo (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• More evidence to support my point about how this system has an enormous design flaw in that it took SPECIFICO seconds to pepper the article with failed verification, not in citation given, and such tags with completely blank edit summaries yet took me I don't know how long to hunt down and type up exact quotes to show how each and every one of those tags was complete and utter nonsense. Abel (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I should note that this one article alone has more of that type of attack. These three were together and so easier to find. Usually the attacks are performed with far more stealth. Also, this is just one article. Given the number of edits made, there are likely hundreds more to track down and correct. Abel (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• How many boards have you been to about Specifico now? As I recall they all failed to get any response. OR, NPOV, BLP etc Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

June 15th - Notice that you appeared to be edit warring. Edit warring does not require 3rr. You can edit war with less or more reversions. Given that you were repeatedly removing sourced content, this can be considered edit-warring without crossing the 3rr bright line.

June 21st - Given you had already raised this as various places, it could quite easily be seen as disruptive editing. Close to forum shopping.

June 26th - More reversion despite no traction on the OR arguments.

June28th - Given that you have repeatedly tried to get Specifico sanctioned for NPOV, OR, BLP violations at various noticeboards (and failed), your comments could certainly be taken by Specifico as a personal attack on his editing. I read that comment as you accusing him of editing out of his opinion and OR rather than from a source-base.

In short, specifico should not be templating you so much. You should not be dragging him to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Reposting

I am reposting since this was archived without any response or action. If this report shouldn't be here, please say so and why. A response from an admin one way or the other would be appreciated.

User:Spanglej has reverted disputed content currently in discussion at the article Dimensionaut (link to discussion here: and relevant prior discussion here ). The disputed content reverted back into the article remains unverified and unreferenced. The original editor putting the content in the article used both original research and synthesis and admits there is nothing verifiable to support the content. After being advised to do so by an administrator, I started a discussion that would hopefully lead to consensus yesterday. Today, Spanglej reverted the disputed content back into the article and about an hour later put some comments into the discussion. There is a possibility she was unaware there was consensus-seeking discussion occurring when she made the reversion, however, there was no question she knew after she posted on the talk page because she commented in the section clearly labeled "Discussion and consensus building on disputed content". No consensus has been reached, no real discussion has taken place. This action of reverting disputed content in discussion by Spanglej has all the earmarks of blatantly tendentious editing, poking, and disruption to make a point. It's pretty disappointing that I did exactly what an administrator (User:EdJohnston) advised me to do (links here: ) and then an experienced editor refuses to take part in true and fair consensus building by choosing instead to act in a hostile and non-productive manner. I would appreciate someone looking into this and helping us toward a resolution. I have notified Spanglej of this request for administrator assistance. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 15:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I've invited a neutral 3rd (4th really) party to lend their experience here. I'll be watch lisaddressed days article. You've reverted that content 6 times since the beginning of the month and you currently have two users disputing your change and no one supporting it. I'd suggest you stop using the revert button immediately because you're facing a block.--v/r - TP 17:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

WTF? I stopped reverting days ago and started the discussio/consensus seeking as suggested by an admintrator. You comment is neither helpful nor addressing why I brought the situation here. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:05, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

You're lucky no one had seen your revert war days ago or else you'd have been blocked right now. You'll not find an administrator who would take action right now, especially not against those other two users. Let me point you at my new essay WP:ANI Advice.--v/r - TP 22:13, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, WTF? The admin who responded to the edit warring situation advised me to try for discussion and consensus - which I did - as well as promise to stop reverting - which I did. So, your assertion that "I'm lucky no one had seen" what was happening is not just innacurate, it's far from assuming good faith. Not to mention, still unhelpful. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:43, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I appreciate you bringing the situation to someone who has more knowledge regarding album articles. I just don't appreciate the threat of a block when that was already addressed by another administrator. He was certainly more lenient than you say you would have been, but at least he looked at the entire situation more objectively. It's always been my understanding that blocks are to be preventive and not punishment. From what you said and how you said it, you seem to be more interested in the punishment angle. EdJohnston dealt with the situation accordingly and correctly, in my view. After all, I did what was asked and kept to my word, even after Spanglej reverted inappropriately. From that situation alone, it's obvious the preventative occurred without the block. Everyone here has a learning curve, Ed Johnston seems to understand that. And truthfully, I wish more administrators did. -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:54, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Winkelvi: The WP:3RR policy is very clear and is a hard policy, specifically meant to prevent edit warring like the type that happened in that article. It makes no difference what the merits of the content are - if you keep persistently reverting an article in cases where it's not clear vandalism, it's considered disruptive.

As TParis said, you're lucky an admin hadn't seen that war at the time - it's likely you would have been blocked temporarily for violating that rule had it come to one's attention. The proper channel is to take it to the Talk page and, if necessary, get third parties involved. Since you're now doing that, I doubt admins need to be involved at this time. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Having a real hard time understanding why admins keep bringing up edit warring when that issue is dead and long over with. It's no longer an issue and was dealt with by an administrator already. It wasn't even an issue when I brought this report here. I get that edit warring is disruptive, okay? I got it when Ed Johnston posted on my talk page about it more than a week ago. That's why I said I would stop doing it and followed through by no longer doing it. Isn't it time to drop the splintered and heavily used stick on that subject? All I wanted was some advice on what to do (if anything could be done) or to see some appropriate action taken in regard to Spanglej reverting disputed content when a discussion had been started. It's obvious no one is interested in anything other than beating me over the head about edit warring. Could someone just close this report out, please? -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 04:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

For my part, I was just trying to help explain the policy and the fact that it's enforced equally without regard to the content. I left you a more detailed message on my talk page. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Alleged hounding by Badmintonhist

User:Badmintonhist's behavior, largely but not exclusively in recent days, indicates that thwarting my editing constitutes a substantial part of his participation on Misplaced Pages. He has followed me to article after article (here is a warning I left him earlier today about it, which did not stop him from continuing). In this edit to a talk page, he states that he is unwilling to accept any version of an article that I propose. He has lately decided that my disagreement with him must mean I have Asperger's. I would like to request administrator intervention (whether a sanction or a friendly push) in order to get Badmintonhist to stop harassing me through hounding and comments. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps she can't help herself but Roscelese habitually makes snarky, insulting comments, in edit summaries and the talk pages, about pretty much everyone who disagrees with her, particularly if the subject is a political hot button issue. It would behoove a fair minded administrator to follow this pattern which will reveal one of the most consistently rude editors in the Misplaced Pages enterprise. Everyone gets testy at times. In the case of Roscelese, however, insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi. 02:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)Badmintonhist (talk) 02:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This has every appearance of WP:HOUNDING. I note that Badmintonhist says nothing in defense of the purported hounding or stalking activities. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor interaction chart is here. Most of the interaction is Roscelese editing an article first, then Badmintonhist coming in afterward. Binksternet (talk) 02:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, Badmintonhist, if you're going to make claims of an editor making insulting comments or that she has a pattern of this behavior in regard to political opposition, I'd suggest posting some evidence. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 02:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC):

A fine idea. Since I don't generally find myself if this sort of forum I'm rather naive about them. For starters let's say that her most recent exchange with me: "Do you or do you not know what a press release is?" followed by "welp" (edit summary) "So that's a 'no'. Good to know." is quite typical. She generally likes to claim that folks who disagree with her are incompetent. Give me a little time and I'll find plenty of examples. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)PS As for the supposed hounding we are attracted to the same kinds of issues and I often find her editing contentious and partisan. By the way, I've been somewhat successful in amending articles that Roscelese and also Binksternet (who has weighed in here on her side) have tried to steer in a different direction, which may help to explain things a bit. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC) PS: The articles on Pro-life feminism and Maafa 21 are examples.

• Far more concerning is this edit summary; an editor who thinks that edit-warring is OK if your fourth revert is 24 hours and 1 minute past the first one is someone who hasn't read WP:EW, which states "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation". I almost always block editors I find gaming the system like that, so I would strongly suggest that you don't. Black Kite (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not only that, but the three edits from today at this article suggest that a reading of WP:BRD might not go amiss either. The IP does not need consensus to revert Badminstonhist's edit, and BH should not have immediately re-reverted. The more I look at this, the more problematic it appears to be. Black Kite (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• But these reverts mentioned above by this IP edit's and its summaries bring doubt too(these are the only two edits done by this IP). This might be just an involved editor logged out to make a point.  A m i t  ❤  17:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I assure you, it's not me. I would not have been violating 1RR in order to revert, so had I desired to do so, I would have done so under my own account. Whether it's someone else, I don't know. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went back about 15 months ago figuring that this was around the time I first had significant interaction with Roscelese . Instead I found a series of what are supposed to be "edit summaries" directed at her fellow editor Collect, who, judging by his numerous barnstars, at least, seems to be a respected contributor. Here's some examples:

• enough trolling
• ahaha so much fail, Collect
• blah blah blah
• I'm seeing some real WP:COMPETENCE issues here
• Supporting what you write with sources? That's crazy!
• How many times will I have to repeat myself
• Oh yeah, I'd forgot you're one of those people who wave the BLP flag to cover up POV-pushing
• More nonsense from edit warrior

Those are just her "edit summaries." I didn't look too closely at the actual "dialogue" which took place at the Talk page for Pro-life feminism but I did catch this one:

Where the hell do you get the idea that you can make these rubbish claims about the monolith of Irish women?

Around this same time she told another editor "your edits are ridiculous" and chided someone else on his/her presumed bigotry. I'm sure I'll have more examples of the Rosclese style later. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all very interesting (and I'm sure it will be even more interesting to read that discussion), but none of it explains or justifies your hounding, stated intention to prevent me from editing, or "diagnoses." Does this mean that you recognize that you were wrong and are planning to change your behavior? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This really doesn't have anything to do with what appears to be, at first glance, a pretty clear cut case of hounding. If Collect has an issue with Roscelese, he can bring it up himself, and Collect is no stranger to commenting on noticeboards and such. Can you address the issue of what appears to be a case of you following around another editor to unrelated articles and not bring up irrelevant comments that are over a year old. Gamaliel (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding my supposed hounding, as I have said, we tend to be on different sides of topics we are both interested in. As for the article on Care Net I had already effectively relented on the point about CommonwelthCitizen's version rather than Roscelese's version being our starting point, by editing from Roscelese's version. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Instead of self-righteously declaring yourself superior based on someone else's alleged wrongdoings and your own amateur psychoanalysis, you ditch this sort of behavior entirely, then you report it when someone else engages in it. The issue here is your uncivil behavior, which you're beginning to escalate yet again. I've talked to you about this before, and you are well aware this is a problem. I suggest you both avoid each other for a few days before trouts and blocks result from this discussion. You've already crossed the line with your comments above, please try to control yourself. Gamaliel (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm utterly puzzled by what you found objectionable about my previous comment. Surely not the term "aspies" which people with Asperger's syndrome themselves use, and even if you did object to that, which you shouldn't, what was objectionable about myfirst sentence? I find this all quite curious. The foulest of four letter words can pass muster here but a comment that someone finds vaguely insensitive gets canned. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You should not be commenting in such a personal matter about other editors, especially ones you are in a conflict with. I don't understand why that would be such a curious concept. Gamaliel (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

ROMUALDEZES ISLAMIC JIHAD GROUP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Does anyone think the former contents of User:ROMUALDEZES_ISLAMIC_JIHAD_GROUP is anything but a hoax? Toddst1 (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

At first glance, I'm pretty sure that the account is another sock of HENRY APPLEGATE. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And  Confirmed. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 04:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

IP-hopper has returned on previous targeted articles

IP user 78.160.81.47 (78.160.xxx.xxx) started his/her Turkification, falsification, and POV-pushing quest again. Some targeted articles:

• Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo)
• Timurid dynasty
• Seljuq dynasty
• Great Seljuq Empire
• Xiongnu
• Hephthalite Empire
• Golden Horde

An IP-range block or page protection is necessary. Admins please see this (old and archived thread/section about this user): Administrators' noticeboard – How can we deal with 78.160.xxx.xx? Hundreds of disruptive edits per week. Zyma (talk) 09:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Engaged in falsification persion is you. I'm writing is trues. I don't propaganda just like you. 78.160.7.226 (talk) 13:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks like most edits of 78* are indeed meaningless POV edits, like adding the Turkish language template in the first place (!) to Xiongnu; however some of their edits seem to have some meaning, like in Timurid dynasty. I am afraid we need to identify specific questions, and discuss them separately. I do not see grounds to block them right now (though one more revert in Seljuq dynasty may earn both of you a day of rest from Misplaced Pages).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Ymblanter, I disagree. Right now admins are going around protecting the pages he has edited so far, so a better solution is to block the range, as this protects the whole encyclopedia. I have blocked 78.160.0.0/17 for two weeks. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You do not need to be sorry. A closer look shows indeed they are mainly destructive.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And a goodd thing too....thanks for that, Diannaa (I can not bring myself to use the thank-thingie....); I never learned to do rangeblocks either. Lectonar (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User:NuclearWarfare once famously taught User:Bishonen how to do range blocks, using words of one syllable! That's how I learned to do range blocks. Unfortunately to date the Japanese translation is still not available . The link in this diff is 404; the tool is now at http://toolserver.org/~tparis/rangecontribs/. There's also a range block calculator at http://toolserver.org/~chm/blockcalc.php. These tools and other handy stuff are in the quick-links boxes at the top of my user page. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again, will try when appropriate....and regarding syllables: is "eye" as in "eye-peas" a one-syllable word? Lectonar (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Personal attack by admin Arthur Rubin

I am a software engineer postgrad who has academically studied formal methods and who uses them in my vocation and have recently been editing formal methods-related articles on Misplaced Pages. Admin Arthur Rubin has aggressively reverted my edits, proposed my articles for deletion and personally attacked me ("Nonsense. As usual, when you attempt to talk about mathematical concepts.") I find his behavior to be very antagonistic and quite frankly if his adversarial editing continues I have no desire to continue using Misplaced Pages. I wouldn't complain if Arthur was just a user but I am surprised an admin would behave this way. I did have a problem with my signature that I didn't realize was happening - as soon as I was alerted to the problem I fixed it and apologized. I have tried to collaborate but he seems totally uninterested in meeting me half-way. Eptified (talk) 09:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• If you want to prove a pattern of behavior, you'll have to provide more than one diff. I looked through Arthur's edits and found two instances of his reverting you, here and here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but neither of those looks aggressive to me. Perhaps there are more, and if so, you should provide diffs. As far as deletion goes, I see one deletion he proposed, at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_23#Category:Iterated_binary_operations. About the nonsense comment, few people who attend this board are going to be fluent in the mathematical details you're talking about, so most of us have no idea whether its right or wrong to refer to your comment as nonsense. The solution to everything you've brought up is simply to pursue dispute resolution, get more people involved. If there really is a pattern of Arthur antagonizing you, show it with diffs - don't offer up one and expect us to hunt down the rest. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Your "I tried to collaborate" diff is a message you left on Arthur Rubin's talk page only a few hours ago. I don't see any reply from him there. I also see that he hasn't edited the articles in question (Term graph and Abstract semantic graph) since you posted that message. What leads you to believe that he is totally uninterested in meeting you halfway, or indeed that he's even seen your message? Can you provide some diffs of his from the past few hours which shows he's refusing your request to collaborate? —Psychonaut (talk) 09:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• There is probably some history which is not apparent in the above. One of those links shows Arthur Rubin's contributions, but it's not very clear what we are supposed to look at. I see two sections where you have posted at User talk:Arthur Rubin. The second is currently visible at the bottom, and does not show any problem. The first was removed by yourself and concerns a question over your signature. Here is the diff of your post, and the whole section can be seen in this permalink. User talk:Eptified has two posts by Arthur Rubin. They weren't welcoming, but they were standard—again, I'm assuming that some disagreement has occurred regarding articles. There is a CfD here, but I do not see a problem there. Can you identify an article or a talk page which shows a problem? One of your links (diff) shows "Nonsense. As usual, when you attempt to talk about mathematical concepts." which is unpleasant, but the background would have to be investigated to decide whether such bluntness was appropriate. A good place for opinions on mathematical issues is the active wikiproject. Johnuniq (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• back in the day much worse would be commonplace, i am sure AR meant nothing by it. ps, kudos for mastering the learning curve so fast, your edits in the first month here demonstrate an advanced understanding of the project. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • First month? He's been around since March 2009, having previously edited under the account Factomancer (talk · contribs). —Psychonaut (talk) 10:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Even in disagreement with Arthur Rubin, I've seen nothing, but respectful dialog and concern for collaboration with Misplaced Pages's best interest at heart of the matter! While the tone may be a bit harsher to some, everything needs context and perspective. I am sure Arthur Rubin can defend himself, but of the instances found, one doesn't pass MEDRS (October 2012) and the other seems to be problematic at first glance. The one for Morgellons was really contentious to boot. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• I apologize for assuming that Eptified is in the pro-Morgellons gang. However, he has failed to provide a WP:MEDRS source for the assertion that Morgellons isn't a psychiatric illness. As for the mathematical concepts, he seems to conflate iterated binary operations (analogous to summation) and iterable binary operations (analogous to addition). As for my "nonsense" comment: it is nonsense in set theory and in universal algebra, where I am expert; it may make sense in category theory. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous vandalism through proxy server

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When looking at vandalism (on an article on my watchlist) perpetrated by an anonymous user on IP 8.37.224.64 I noticed that Whatismyipaddress says that the IP is a confirmed proxy with a dial-up connection owned by Wangsu Science And Technology (a satellite provider, meaning that there is no way to tell where in the world a vandal is operating from), and also that the IP is included in a large number of spam blacklists. The vandalism so-far through the proxy is limited, but that trickle could soon turn into a mighty river if the proxy is left unchecked. Thomas.W (talk) 13:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• You are misreading that spam list. See the green checkmarks? That means they are ok - a red x would indicate a problem. They list all those places for every IP, then rate them with the marks. They only have two edits here. There are a lot of satellite IPs around here that we don't block. There is no problem being a confirmed proxy here, only open proxies are blocked. I checked, this isn't an open proxy. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparent block evasion by RetroArch editor

Not sure if this is true block evasion or just that the editor in question has more than one IP address to begin with (or, perhaps, that there's more than one insane individual in that camp), but 77.166.85.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is now going around to the same spots as our friend at 84.26.108.111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (who was blocked on Friday), once again accusing people of being "technically challenged", playing favorites with Higan (emulator) (and on his own talk page), etc.

The attitude is just the tiniest bit calmer at the moment, but otherwise the same as 84.26. We do happen to have a merge discussion underway at Talk:Higan (emulator), which I was going to formalize today when I had time. But yeah, same general pattern of paranoia, makes me believe this is the same person. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, as you probably saw, I came to this conclusion as well, and outright asked him. I figured he'd probably answer honestly, as he's been rather open and brash about not following policy, but he hasn't edited since... Sergecross73 msg me 15:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly meat puppetry, but my money is on sock puppetry. Either way, there is puppetry going on. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Labels like "insane" can be provocative; let's not add more fuel to the fire. bobrayner (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. It's just that there's been such a history with this person/team that it's hard to imagine what might be going on with them. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 17:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is the original IP he was using. Then he switched to another one, and then back to this one. It's probably a work/home thing. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Funny how a holy trio (Harizotoh9/KieferSkunk/Sergecross73) are colluding at every opportunity with their paranoid and delusional fantasies that the same person they previously banned is trying to '*ban evade*' / *stalk* / whatever irrational accusations they can come up with.

Funny also how they are allowed to get away with this to the point where they start making inflammatory comments regarding an entire community/team - and how the other Misplaced Pages admins just allow them to run roughshot with this.

Funny also how these same trio are end-user videogame skiddies - totally unqualified to actually make any decisions at all on any of these subjects since their technical merit is rather .... lacking.

Oh well, I'm glad at least one person in here picked up on the rather personal bias that is peppering KieferSkunk's allegations so far (accusations such as someone being 'insane', whatever). I'm wondering - what do your lovely 'Misplaced Pages policies' have to state about ad-hominem attacks, ganging up, stalking and not allowing an entire team to correct you on obvious misinformation?

Frankly, like Squarepusher, I can no longer be bothered to talk to you guys - it looks more and more like a desperate clown show to try to get you guys educated on *anything* in particular. So continue spewing forth your misinformation, delete what you like - it's obvious to three guys in particular, 'neutrality' can not be assumed and it's just a matter of trolling (as evidenced by KieferSkunk's earlier comments - 'Merge: At this point, I have to agree with the folks below that there doesn't appear to be enough reliable source material to warrant a full article. I say merge and redirect. (And that has only a little to do with the rather long and vitriolic dispute with the IP editor claiming to be this project's lead developer.) ' (backtracking on earlier 'votes' he makes because he doesn't like the person). One other example - "Perhaps I've given you way too much slack, and we should have just blocked you four hours ago. Certainly would have been less disruptive" - delusions of grandeur believing he is solely in charge of such decisions. ONe more example - oh wait - that already passed by the Administrators' noticeboard - where you admitted to *trolling* just because you don't like the person involved.

Anyway, since a holy trio has decided to set itself up as judge, jury and executioner, I'd have to say - delete any page you want, censor anything you want, create as much misinformation as you want, believe things based on ignorance - we as developers will no longer try to factually correct you since it seems the facts don't matter.

I have to agree with Squarepusher - you've made yourself look quite bad. I can no longer take this 'encyclopedia' seriously - if this kind of activity and 'decisionmaking goes on', people could rightfully call this the 'Reddit/4chan of encyclopedias'. 77.166.85.169 (talk) 10:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, another anti-Misplaced Pages rant... Sergecross73 msg me 13:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor continues to add copyvio despite warnings

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am involved in disputes over original research and sources with Valentino2013 (talk · contribs) so I am loathe to block him despite his continued addition of copyvio. At Haplogroup J-M267 is an edit using his IP address which is copyvio from which is not a reliable source in any case, being by a lawyer who is an amateur geneticist. This edit of his there added material from . At Ishmaelites he has been continually adding material from the same sources despite being reverted and warned (and the genetic sources do not mention Ishmaelites in any case - there's a discussion at WP:RSN on this). I question his competence - two editors have added speedy tags to some of his new articles, he doesn't seem to understand the genealogy material he is adding and there are problems with virtually all of the numerous articles he's created (a recent series presents traditional Arabic/Muslim genealogies back to Abraham and Adam as fact, but that's another type of issue). But the main problem here is persistent copyvio. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I will add the differentials for the many times Dougweller deleted my addition to many artickes even though they are supported by legible referencesValentino2013 (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Doug, a quick look didn't make the copyright violation obvious to me. Can you point out what you believe to be an excessively close paraphrase or an excessively long unattributed quote?—Kww(talk) 16:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I mean, the second edit that Doug linked is directly plagiarized from the source and not attributed as a quote, it's not about a paraphrase. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Must have gotten my diffs crossed up. No problem seeing it this time.—Kww(talk) 17:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

My inclination is to block on WP:COMPETENCE grounds, but I will give the softer-hearted a chance to chime in before I do.—Kww(talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

His reply at WP:RSN#Can these sources be used to genetically trace Arabs (or rather 'Ishmaelite Arabs') to Abraham? gives you some idea of his competence and English. Dougweller (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

And he's continuing to editwar. I warned him for 3RR and he reverted me again.. Hopefully this can be resolved here so I won't report him yet, and another editor has reverted him for obvious WP:SYN. Dougweller (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Doug's point about the editor's command of English is pretty valid. Based on his writing elsewhere, I would venture to suggest than any coherent addition to an article is a copyvio. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I have been partially involved in this because of his edits at Ishmaelites. Valentino2013's sole purpose seems to be to 'prove' the authenticity of traditional Muslim genealogies. His material is often difficult to decipher, but it's clear there are bucket-loads of WP:SYN. He throws arounds statements about haplotypes, mingles this with bits of history and then connects it to Biblical narratives. It's virtually impossible to "unpack" much of this material, and discussion with the editor appears to be fruitless. He just makes long barely-readable dogmatic pronouncements. Even stylistic improvements get wiped out in the edit wars Valentino2013 provokes. Paul B (talk) 17:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked.—Kww(talk) 18:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Kww, what's the rationale behind an indef block on this user? I can understand temporary blocking for the reasons you cited, even for a long period of time, but an indef as the very first block on that account seems a bit excessive to me. I'm not familiar with the issues at hand, though, so I just want some clarity. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

It would appear to me that a block for any definite period would demonstrate that Kww knew the exact moment that this user would catch a clue. An indefite block is not the most severe, it's the block one uses when one has to wait on the blocked to let us know when they are ready to edit. Tiderolls 18:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

That, and it would mean that I would have to have some reasonable expectation that that exact moment would ever arrive.—Kww(talk) 18:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, though the AGF part of me wants to believe that, given a month, the user would either decide to leave on his own or come back and try again with a better idea of how things work here. That's more of a "wait and see" approach, though. But I'm not involved, so I won't contest. :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

With a fixed-length block, the user could simply resume the problematic behaviour when the block expires. With the indef-block, the user has to talk to us, via the unblock notice, and demonstrate that he/she understands the expectations for this website. In the case of copyright violations, a policy is being violated that has legal implications, so it's pretty important that they not resume editing until they assure us that they understand what they did wrong and won't do it again. - Diannaa (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

wikihounding by Eodcarl as well as Sock puppetry by the same user.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm being wikihounded by Eodcarl. I believe it stems from his editing of my comments on a talk page located here: . He did not like my comments so tried to delete them initially and then edited them when I restored my comments. When that failed he then deleted his comment in which my comment was in response to. Now whenever I make an edit on any page on wikipedia he shows up on that page either deleting them (the page or my edits) or making edits to them. He initially deleted this page: after I had created it, but then later reinstated it with some superfluous edits. Previously all of his edits have been to a very narrow set of pages, but now he's editing virtually every page I have recently edited. For instance, I edited the pages and on June 30 and magically this user shows up and edits them again later that day and edits the exact part of the page I just edited in 1 of those cases. Here's the diff for my edit: and here's his: . I've edited those 2 pages before and Eodcarl has never edited them until yesterday.

More examples are I also edited the page , and Eodcarl shows up to make his first ever edit to this page yesterday as well. Again, I've edited this page several times before while that was the 1st edit to that page by Eodcarl. Also, I edited the pages , , and back on June 4 and magically Eodcarl shows up on June 11 and deletes all of my legitimate edits. Here are the diffs for them , , and .

Some of the edits following mine seem superfluous while others are merely petty or confrontational in their nature. He's now established a pattern of wikihounding my contributions to wikipedia without cause other than to confront or annoy me, or to otherwise inhibit my contributions. It's also quite clear that his only reason for being on any of these pages was because he saw I had edited those pages recently through checking my "user contributions".

In addition to all of this, he created the sock GenericEditorName for editing both the talk page and the main page of . As evidence that this is a sock, not only did he almost immediately begin making edits in favor of his Eodcarl identity on the talk page in addition to supporting edits (of Eodcarl) on the article itself, but he also first edited the page with that sock which is meaningful because EODcarl clearly, as alluded to in his name, was an EOD technician. It's no coincidence that GenericEditorName almost exclusively edited 2 pages that Eodcarl had an ongoing interest in and the edits on the Border War talk page were all in backing up Eodcarl's POV. Kmanblue (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

All of my edits have improved articles, in all of the cases referenced here. Other than when appropriate, I added my own edits to improve the mentioned articles. I cannot speak to KManBlue's speculation about me personally or to the creation of a "sock." Based on this rant, I would appreciate it if KManBlue would leave me alone to my editing. I think you'll find I've edited quite a few pages exclusive to those visited by KManBlue. Eodcarl (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That's utter non-sense. You're wikihounding me and making superfluous or erroneous or confrontational edits and deletions to pages you have no interest in nor any knowledge of the subject at hand. You would NEVER be on any of these pages at all if you were not wikihounding me. Now it looks like the sock is now wikihounding me as well. Your edits have been at best superfluous and at worst petty and confrontational. Are you denying that is your sock puppet now? How odd that that user immediately joins in the editing of your most watched over page as well as the EOD section of the United States Navy page in addition to you responding to comments I had made directed at that user name. Is there any administrator around here willing to do something about this harassment? Kmanblue (talk) 06:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

KManBlue seems to be checking on the edits I make completely independent of him and reverting them. As I said, I would prefer if he would stop this bullying behavior. My only interest in editing is making articles better in content, citations, grammar, spelling, etc. If I'm supposed to stay away from any articles KManBlue has ever edited, I will do that, but that should not be necessary. Eodcarl (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Difficult user

I am having some difficulty dealing with a user in Species in Defiance. the user 173.2.197.76 who recently started logging in under his/her account of ]. The article, which someone tried to speedy delete shortly after its creation, contains an enormous amount of poorly- or un-cited material. After posting about the need for this in article talk, I made a removal of material that wasn't only uncited, but simple OR. It was reverted, and I decided to stop trying to deal with the user; they aren't listening and are apparently operating with an understanding of Misplaced Pages that seems out of sync with everyone else here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do you mean Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk · contribs)? If so, you needed to notify the user on their talk page. I've taken care of this. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 19:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was me editing anonymously. I believe Jack Sebastian is at fault here. Yes it was my fault in not adding in citations to the page earlier...but now Jack says that even links to information posted on the official website of the TV series are not a "reliable source", which is truly baffling. Once more, the drama begins...--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Links to the "official" site are handy to show a fact or two, but they don't prove it passes WP:GNG. To show a topic is "notable" (Misplaced Pages's definition, not yours or mine) it requires press or similar coverage outside of the ownership of the topic, from a website that passes WP:RS, ie: mainstream websites, newspapers, books, etc. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not opposed to the article's existence; the assertion that my issues (with the the way the article is being constructed) are all about the Deletionist Vs. Inclusionist drahmaz is simply childish. I just want the article (any article I work on, really) to actually have a chance to reach GA status. Species in Defiance is unlikely to survive an AfD in its current state (and I cannot submit it for such, as I would surely come across as having a vendetta), and that would simply be a damn shame. Rather than making this about me, I think that V should spend his/her time actually working to improve the article, not just stuff it with an indiscriminate collection of facts and hope that something sticks. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Questions

Hi. I am a new user, and I had two quick questions.

1. I want to edit a redirect page, but don't know how. I recently wrote an article about BioLite and was hoping to have it redirect from Biolite, as many people don't include the second capitalization. There already is a redirect page. How do I change this?

2. Is there a way to change the privacy of a page? I love that anyone can edit most articles, but what do you do if you want there to be a little more security? How can I achieve this?

Thank you so much for your assistance.

EJLefever (talk) 19:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Hi EJ-- this is the administrator's noticeboard. Questions regarding how to use and edit on Misplaced Pages are better directed at The Teahouse or The Help Desk. I'll drop you an invite on your talk page. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 20:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Mike Bithell

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anyone mind taking a look at this? Something's going on with it, and I don't know what. A bunch of anonymous IPs, and a couple of registered users, seem to be using it as a vandalism sandbox. I haven't notified anyone because there's like twenty different users/IPs involved, and each one appears to make only one or two edits before vanishing. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 00:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Updated to add...I've begun notifications, as much as I can. But it's a bit like getting in front of the sea during flood tide... --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 01:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

...and WP:BLPPRODed to boot. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Paine1776 move warring and content warring at Decline of Detroit

Take a look at the log of Decline of Detroit and you will see User:Thomas Paine1776's repeated attempts to whitewash the article of negative content and to move the title to a more bland name. This editor has been overly promotional and disruptive in the past at the Detroit article but had seemingly accepted consensus by staying away from it for the month of June. Now he's on the move again. Binksternet (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• This strikes me as an editing matter for the talk page of the piece. TP1776 clearly has concerns with the POV of the piece and I'm not sure that he's in the wrong about them. Carrite (talk) 02:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It became a behavioral matter when TP1776 repeated his move after being reverted by two editors, when he repeated his deletions/whitewashes after being reverted by two editors. The guy is uncommunicative, so your suggestion we engage his concerns on the talk page is impractical. There is a long history here, with lots of discussion visible at Talk:Detroit,_Michigan/archive6#Decline_of_Detroit_Section and four more threads underneath that one. You can see TP1776's talk page contributions stopped on March 15, 2013, though we were talking through April about issues crucial to him. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, the move bit is simple. It's protected for now, and any move should follow an RM discussion. Placing a note on the talk page with some diffs should help the next time this comes up, if there is a next time. And I do believe that talk page sections/comments are the best way to win an audience for you--more helpful than just diffs. Drmies (talk) 02:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Carrite--I don't really see the whitewashing in their edits. I do, however, believe that the title is itself POV since it's recentist. But moves should be properly discussed, and thus I've move-protected the article for two weeks. Odd how empty the talk page is. Hint. Hint. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• POVFork. AfD nuclear may become an option. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• No, it is a valid topic, supported by dozens of books that bear on the issue of Detroit's decline. Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US. Binksternet (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Detroit's decline is the top example of urban decay in the US." Is POV. We don't write titles to state a thesis. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is not a POVFork. It is an expansion of the section found in Detroit, referenced by multiple sources. According to your logic, Fall of the Western Roman Empire is a POVFork of Roman Empire. --NeilN 04:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Fall of the Western Roman Empire, it occurred 1500 years ago. So, no the same logic does not apply. According to your logic, where is the article Decline of Britain? It was surely the world super-power that is no more. Where is the Decline of the British Empire? Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Valid topics. I look forward to you starting the articles. And if "Decline" is POV, so are "Growth", "Boom Years", and "Recovery", all of which are pretty commonly used. --NeilN 13:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

What articles are you talking about with those titles? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

"Decline of Detroit" is recentist as well as POVish. The Roman Empire fell, that can't be denied, and we've had 1500 years to ponder that. This one, we're right in the middle of it. But "decline" isn't even defined--in economic terms, social terms, what? The wildlife living in those urban prairies or whatever they're called won't think of it as a decline. Maybe the morals of the people of Detroit have improved greatly, or their health, now that they have vegetable yards on every block. Moreover, this is probably going to be over in a few years, at which point it will be clear that the title should have had some years attached to it as well. But we should discuss this on the article talk page. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The article takes the name of the section header in the Detroit article. Here's one with similar headers: History_of_the_Las_Vegas_Valley. Here's a FA with "decline": . Here's one with "economic collapse", "chaos", and "economic miracle": History_of_Germany --NeilN 14:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Context. It needs context and perspective. We don't have New York Dropping Dead ref: , and we don't want Misplaced Pages buries Detroit. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to hash out a proposed name somewhere that isn't ANI? The article appears to be move protected, so there is no imminent threat of shenanigans - so how's about we all have a nice cup of coffee and discuss it somewhere? UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, no more coffee. Why don't you putzz your moneyzz where your mouth izz and clozze thizz thread? Thankzz, Drmies (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

IP 91.155.236.125 edit-warring fringe theories

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could I get some eyes on 91.155.236.125? They have returned after a block for edit-warring poorly referenced fringe material based on the theories of Kalevi Wiik and have made a threatening post at User talk:Thomas.W. I have warned and done one revert but am involved. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd block for a month or two, but as I was the one who did the previous two blocks, maybe it would look nicer if somebody else did the honours this time? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Gave them a month. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

IP address causing problems

An IP address who has been blocked twice before due to his/her disruptive edits is back at it again. He/she is removing highly relevant material without any sort of edit-summary and playing around with population statistics and figures without any references to sources. He/she is also distorting sourced information that is relevant to the article and subject. See: 1,2,3, 4, 5. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit Warring by user Viriditas

Despite a recent two-week block and a warning by an admin to not edit war, the user is engaging in the same problematic editing style, this time by the user's who not only initiated a wholesale deletion of sourced material that either included material that the user deemed appropriate or of a nature that three users (including myself) judge legitimate for inclusion, but did not even discuss the user's reasons for the deletion on the talk page. Usually 3O, DRN or even arbitration would be okay to handle a situation, but given this user's yen for edit warring I believe administrator intervention is necessary (or at least be helpful). Gobbleygook (talk) 05:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I have not been involved in any edit warring at this time. The opposite is true. Gobbleygook returned on 30 June from an extended absence to make an unbelievable six reverts, stalk me to Sally Field, an article he never edited before that I was currently editing, and continue his stalking over at Talk:March Against Monsanto:

• 15:37, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+220)‎ . . The Young Turks ‎ (inclusion of material approved as per 3O)
• 15:40, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+324)‎ . . Cindy Sheehan ‎ (Undid revision 560856752 by Viriditas (talk) as per talk)
• 15:47, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+1,018)‎ . . Glenn Greenwald ‎ (→‎Political views: OR)
• 15:51, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+97)‎ . . Molly Ivins ‎ (Undid revision 560856889 by Viriditas (talk))
• 16:11, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+1,286)‎ . . Cenk Uygur ‎ (as per talk, at least two editors have already noted the issue of removing description of Uygur as a progressive. Also add citation sourced by user Viriditas)
• 16:42, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+316)‎ . . Cindy Sheehan ‎ (→‎Political views: secondary sources)
• 16:53, 30 June 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+88)‎ . . Sally Field ‎ (→‎Activism)
• 03:04, 1 July 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+299)‎ . . Talk:March Against Monsanto ‎ (→‎Tag re-added)

Putting aside the fact that the edit summaries are completely false (he edits weren't approved by 30, the 30 actually recommended against his edits, and this edits weren't "per talk" at all), what's even stranger is that his recent absence from 05:31, 21 June 2013—15:37, 30 June was filled by the instantaneous appearance of new user Gretchen Mädelnick (talk · contribs), a user who has now just as suddenly "disappeared" upon Gobbleygook's return to Misplaced Pages. As I've said several times before, this editing behavior is identical and indistinguishable to the now indefinitely blocked Festermunk (talk · contribs) who had a reputation for using sock puppets, ignoring the outcome of discussions, edit warring over his disputed additions, including an obsession with labeling BLP's as "leftist" and "progressive", and stalked users to articles they never edited before, Unfortunately, an SPI did not turn up any matching technical data, with the CU saying they were editing from different continents. Viriditas (talk) 08:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I can tell you are most definitely on your last editing legs with those wild accusations. An SPI cleared me of sockpuppetry and if you bothered to actually go through Festermunk's edits, my editing style with that user's editing style are totally different, but you still won't drop the insinuation that I am Festermunk. It's telling that you never addressed my point about your edit warring over the Cenk Uygur article, but I'm sure your sockpuppetry discussion would give the admin's here more than a hint as to why you didn't want to address that issue. Gobbleygook (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Get over yourself. The world doesn't evolve around. Nobody is chasing you, other than the creatures in your fantasy. Maybe it's actually your behavior which attracts edit warring. I'm noticing you're halting the addition of even harmless non-controversial information, always under the guise of 'we' and whatnot. Basically borderlining gaming the system. Also, I told you before, I'm sick of your accusations towards my direction here and there. I have decided to file a complaint against you. It's time you need to learn to put a sockpuppet in your mouth now and then, before making allegations. It's also time you learn that not everybody has as much time to spend on the Wiki boards as you do, hence the 'disappearances' as you call it. Gretchen Mädelnick (talk) 15:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

As your second edit to Misplaced Pages - the day you signed up - was to award the Resilient Barnstar to Gobbleygook, stating "Tries to post the truth despite heavy opposition, opposition may include Wiki's own administrators", I would say that if you ain't got much time or interest for admins affairs, you are at least a quick study! Iselilja (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliment. Which reminds me of the fact that I need to improve that somewhat. Gretchen Mädelnick (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

request for close at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Omar Todd (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I haven't notified anyone, because I am not asking for any action against anyone. This AfD has I believe, run as long as it is supposed to run and there appears to be a clear consensus. Please for the sake of all that is good in the world would someone close it before it gets any more dramatic? Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Closure at Port Moresby International High School

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This Afd was closed by someone who is not an admin( just stating fact, not taking issue with that person). There are concerns with the keep rationales which ultimately has lead school article to be kept. None of the rationales are showing any sort of notability at all, the comments are all aimed at "We keep all high school articles" Which I believe is in contravention of WP:ORG which states "No company or organization is considered inherently notable. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is. If the individual organization has received no or very little notice from independent sources, then it is not notable simply because other individual organizations of its type are commonly notable or merely because it exists". The other thing being linked and conveniently ignored where it suits is Misplaced Pages:Notability (high schools) which further states "However, this is not a loophole in Misplaced Pages's guidelines or policies. Like any other topic, articles on schools must be able to meet notability standards, such as those at Misplaced Pages: Notability and Misplaced Pages:Notability (organizations and companies) specifically" Either way I don't believe that policy is being followed or are there valid rationales on why this school is notable. I have not raised this issue on the talkpage because as stated the closer is not an administrator and DRV didn't seem appropriate as it was not deleted. I have not notified anyone of the discussion because I largely think that what they will say is irrelevant to a reviewing admin. If anyone feels differently please notify whoever you think should be. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• There is an accepted notability for high schools that has been around since the 2005s and many bytes and bits have died before and after that arguing the point. On that basis, a keep close is consistent with the community norms for this kind of article and DRV is highly unlikely to overturn the close - and DRV is absolutely the place to have this discussion. DRV reviews the closure of all xFD discussions, not just deletions. I suggest you open a discussion there is you do want to contest this. Spartaz 09:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The common outcomes is at . Spartaz 09:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I will take it to DRV. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, it's very easy (especially on en.wikipedia) to mistake descriptive documents for prescriptive ones. This has, at times, led to circular reasoning which is very hard to break out of, and leads to "keep" or "delete" decisions divorced from policy because, hey, we kept/deleted some similar articles last year, and those in turn were kept/deleted because of a document describing the outcomes of AfD discussions on other articles...
• AfD is surely a place to assess each article on its merits. It is perplexing that discussion on an article's AfD can be overriden by the result of a discussion on a previous AfD of a different article. I have unhappy memories of a time when this circular reasoning delivered results which directly contradicted the outcome of an RfC... this isn't a failure of one particular notability guideline but rather of how we think about process and precedent. (Sorry, somehow managed to start typing a reply to Spartaz without getting an edit-conflict with subsequent edits closing the thread &c...) bobrayner (talk) 14:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring and personal attacks by user Wran

Whenever me or others ask User:Wran to justify her/his controversial changes s/he replies with comments that could be described as either upsetting , or as personal attacks ("you are the one who needs to learn how to read") ("you're blithely fooling around") ("adapting the same language used against me"). S/he keeps (i) removing cited content without giving a comprehensible justification , (ii) tampering with quoted/referenced material in violation of WP:INTEGRITY (this is explained here), (iii) breaking 3RR , (iv) engaging in lame edit-warring , (v) misquoting policy to justify original research , and (vi) employing circular sourcing . Furthermore several of her/his edits indicate that s/he has insufficient competence to edit: . I have opened eight threads so far on her/his talk-page to ask her/him to give reasons for her/his actions but Wran's responses were highly contentious and failed to address any of the concerns I raised. I would like to stress that this is neither a content dispute nor a personal dispute. Wran regularly refuses to work together functionally, declines to communicate with anyone, and has repeatedly shown bad faith. S/he employs trolling and harassment tactics instead of carefully explaining her/his "corrections" to articles. This sort of activity is not just the sign of her/his poor understanding of Misplaced Pages policies but also a sign that s/he is disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Despite the fact that Wran has been given a reasonable timeframe (nearly two years) to reflect on her/his actions, her/his activity continues to cause a major disruption. —Omnipaedista (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Postscript: An apparent sockpuppet has just begun to mass-revert me using the same idiosyncratic edit summaries as Wran did —in an attempt at retaliation, I guess. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting case. In the matter of content, Wran is correct (in the half dozen edits I looked at), and you are wrong to make reverts like this. In the matter of behavior, they're in the wrong: they are indeed rude and boorish. Then again, comments like "Wran has been given a reasonable timeframe (nearly two years) to reflect on her/his actions" is incredibly patronizing. As for the troll, I'd welcome a CU pushing some buttons, where we'll probably find that an LTV who enjoys watching this board and fucking around with us has adopted Wran's persona for a day. If CU establishes that the Male Member is indeed Wran, I'd be very surprised but there's blocks right away; if not, perhaps an interaction/hounding ban could be a solution. Drmies (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. One comment regarding content: I admit that this revert was hasty. It was made after I saw Wran's tampering with citations in a relevant article (and have explained why the latter edit was inappropriate). I had no objections when Wran reverted me on this one . I do not deny that several of this editor's contibutions are of value; that is why I do not see this as usual content dispute. I realize that the tone of the last sentence may sound patronizing but that wasn't my intention; I only want to stress that I have tried so many times to establish a proper conversation with Wran but her/his responses were always disorienting and arrogant. I cannot see why should I assume good faith anymore. Should I have to make a CU request personally? --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, admins with CU probably also patrol this board. I could say something like Hey! CU requested! and maybe they'll hear that. I think it should be done if only to clear Wran (if possible, of course) and focus the discussion. I don't know to which extent you and Wran overlap in editing interests, and it would be beneficial to hear from them here. Given y'all's difference in number of edits and articles edited, I imagine that an interaction ban would not necessarily be a big issue for you. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixing the bad sitenotice for VisualEditor

When doing a live beta, letting people back out is crucial to avoiding discontent, as well as providing a place to post bugs. Neither of these have been done. As such, I would suggest the following sitenotice be added immediately.

Misplaced Pages is happy to announce the live Beta of VisualEditor, a tool that offers a way to edit pages without needing to learn wikimarkup. This has been automatically activated on all accounts. If you need to edit without VisualEditor, you can choose "Edit source" instead of "Edit". For bug reporting, go to Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback.

To opt out of VisualEditor, simply go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets, scroll down to "Editing", tick the box labelled "Remove VisualEditor from the user interface", then scroll to the bottom and click "Save". You can reactivate it at any time by unticking the box.

I've used a little colour to make sure people see it. I suggest Sitenotice, as whatever hack is being used for the uninformative message literally takes 3 seconds before it appears on the otherwise completely-loaded page. This provides the necessary information, explains what's happening, and tells people where to report bugs, and how to opt out - things that should have been done 15 hours ago. Thank you. (Crossposted to WT:Sitenotice)

Adam Cuerden 14:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Looks good to me. I've already disabled VisualEditor, as it is only half functional, and I prefer editing manually/properly anyway. I also object to the primary "Edit" button taking you to the VisualEditor, given the fact it's only half-finished - it should say "Edit with VisualEditor", and the "Edit source" button should still be the primary edit button, for the short term at least. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• comment; you realise that this site notice would display to all logged-in and anonymous users (who don't have the VisualEditor), with absolutely no way to disable it, yes? This is not a workable solution. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

From the top of MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice: Misplaced Pages has five kinds of top of page messages that can be used to convey information or announcements to readers and editors. The "Sitenotice", found at MediaWiki:Sitenotice, is displayed at the top of all pages for all logged-in users, and for anonymous users if MediaWiki:Anonnotice is empty; this latter message can be used to display information only to readers, not editors. Alternatively, by 'blanking' the anonnotice and replacing it with

, the sitenotice can be used as a "logged-in-notice" to display information only to editors.

But, again, with absolutely no way to disable or hide the message. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Site notices are dismissable. It's the current hack-y notice that you're using for VisualEditor that isn't dismissable. That's why sitenotice id has to be incremented when a new sitenotice goes up. Adam Cuerden 14:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

They are? Huh. And: we're not using a hacky notice, we're using CentralNotice - if it's not dismissing for you, we have a problem and that's a distinct bug report I'm happy to happen. I this move would be highly damaging, and to be blunt while I'm not in a position to speak for the Foundation I strongly suspect that making such a prominent notice will not be appreciated. If you want to talk through interim steps to see if it helps - listing the gadget in the FAQ, for example, comes to mind - I'm happy to do so, but I'd ask that we wait for a couple of hours at least until more people have woken up (particularly those in the office). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to claim that explaining where to report bugs and how to opt out of a beta are bad things, but having an uninformative, undismissable message isn't? Adam Cuerden 15:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm saying that going "there's new stuff, here's how to opt out of it" rather than "there's new stuff" is likely to lead a lot of people instinctively reacting by disabling it. I know full well that a lot of people instinctively react to new software or changes (heck, I'm still on monobook. I definitely know that). What I think we want to avoid here is crossing too far to the other side - at the moment, people struggle to find out how to turn it off if they dislike it. But I don't want us to be in a situation where we've enabled people to, en-mass, opt-out without giving it a look or testing it solely because it's new. The software eventually being workable depends on the idea that many eyeballs make bugs shallow. Without some attention, this will be a lot suckier for a lot longer than it can be. I want to keep people informed, and I'm happy to discuss how we can go about increasing the prominence of the escape route, as it were. But we have to strike a balance between damaging the software greatly and damaging the community greatly. I think this solution falls too far on one side. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm in favor of Adam's suggested notice. The VisualEditor rollout was not done correctly. Are there any UX people employed by WMF and are they familiar with the concept of banner blindness? You can stick notices up there all day that features are going to be rolled out but generally users ignore banners. The banners that appear on this site are usually asking for money, or inviting people to events or straw polls that have extremely limited appeal to casual editors. Hence, they are conditioned to ignore them. I personally use this site dozens of times per day and the VisualEditor rollout caught me completely by surprise. I was then irked that it was not immediately apparent how to turn it off, and the preference is buried in the "Gadgets" tab which is the opposite of intuitive. Get the banner up there so people can turn this off. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • If banner blindness is the reason that people are unaware this is going on, I'm not sure a new banner will help. :/ I agree with Adam that this information needs more prominence, but note that it is now the first thing people see who follow the link in the existing banner. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 15:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Is it the best banner, no, but the proposed one is useless for IP editors. How VE caught you off guard is your own issue; its been everywhere I've been and I have seen a lot of discussion for it. Its sort of saying Misplaced Pages's disclaimers on editing, which appear on every page you edit, are non-existent or not noticeable. Some personal responsibility has to exist, and if you have been on Misplaced Pages in the last month, you should be well aware of VE. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Count me among the dumb ones, then. Drmies (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• I don't know about you, but that wraps strangely on my monitor. Lots of white space with line 2 only 25% of the size of line 1, and line 4 has only 3 words. Also, I don't think it is necessary to put the opt-out instructions in the site notice itself. Having a link to such instructions, i.e. one click away, should also work fine. Perhaps something like:

Misplaced Pages is happy to announce the live Beta of VisualEditor, a tool that offers a way to edit pages without needing to learn wikimarkup.

This has been automatically activated on all accounts. If you need to edit without VisualEditor, you can choose "Edit source" instead of "Edit". For bug reporting, go to Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback.
To opt out of VisualEditor, simply follow the directions at SOME LINK PAGE.

Dragons flight (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Just Curious - why is this in ANI?  A m i t  ❤  17:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Because we're trying to protect the encyclopedia from further damage while this thing is still unusably bad? The notice that now appears at teh top of the info page is a great help, thanks. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

multiple ip vandalism on Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang

the page Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang is currently heavily vandalised by multiple ips. requesting page protection and rollback to this version from 1. July. --Doppelback (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Mattythewhite appears to be on it. DMacks (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Dougweller misuse of full protection

Dougweller fully protected this page directly after editing to his favored version. The protection policy states that "Administrators should not protect or unprotect a page to further their own positions in content disputes." Which this user is apparently doing. He continues to edit through the full protection, despite consensus currently running counter to his views on the talk page. An administrator editing through their own full protection is a clear COI violation. In summary, the protection was out of policy, and the protection to a favored version even more so. His claim in the protection summary, that it is a BLP issue, is not, as far as I can tell based in policy, since "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Misplaced Pages" while an external link is clearly not 'on Wikipeida'. Regards, Crazynas 19:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like a clear case of WP:IAR to me. And he did say anyone who wanted to challenge the edit could do so privately. Perhaps that would have been a good idea. As the website in question routinely outs Misplaced Pages editors, I assume that's the reason for him removing the URL (and that's all he did). §FreeRangeFrog 19:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd close this, but I'm walking out the door. Suffice it to say that DougWeller has asked for advice and the matter is being discussed. IAR is a perfectly valid policy for this action, which cannot be discussed on wiki. Any questions, feel free to pass them to the Arbitration committee. There is no rush for the article to be unprotected until this is resolved. Worm(talk) 19:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

WTT, just to be clear, you're invoking a Smoke-filled room in this case? Crazynas 19:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

ECx2 - I agree with the above. Dougweller made only two edits - both removing the URL to the subject website. Since the website contains or has contained material that violates our BLP policy, removing a link to that website is reasonable - the content might not be on wikipedia, as Crazynas correctly notes, but it is the inclusion of the material via the link that causes the problem. Given that the inclusion of the link is under discussion at the article's talk page, I'm not sure what else needs to be done here. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Doug has no authority to protect a page based on his not liking something. He removed the external link, whose presence follows weeks of contentious debate, and was likely disruptive editing in itself. A minute after his removing the link to Wikipediocracy.com, he locked the page, so misusing the tools to get an upper-hand in a content dispute (in which he did not even allow others the opportunity to engage). He has admitted to these gross errors of judgment, but still has not removed the page lock. He should be desysopped immediately. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that the reason the article is still protected is because no one wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. And given the reception Doug got when he took administrative action there, I can't say I blame them. Doug seems to have conceded that he overreacted, discussion is now ongoing, and there is no requirement that we have a link to that website RIGHT NOW. Given that consensus in that discussion seems to agree that the link is appropriate, I expect it will be restored shortly. And the earth will continue to spin. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all a bit silly, since (a) we've seen this movie before and we all know how it turns out; (b) Dougweller left a link to wikipediocracy.com in the article; and (c) there is nothing preventing anyone from creating links to

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards