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Disruptive talk page notices by User:SPECIFICO

SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · count · api · block log)

As noted elsewhere, User:SPECIFICO explicitly has stated he is an Austrian School economist who thinks those connected to the Ludwig von Mises Institute which he sees as a competing economics faction are "hijackers" and "multi-level marketing" schemers. He has made biased edits and reverts on several related articles and his POV is so strong he fails or refuses per IDIDNTHEARTHAT to understand clear explanations of policy. He now has taken to leaving me eight questionable and even baseless Talk page "Notices" over the last two weeks, including three under one header, that look like attempts to disrupt my comments and editing. He is starting to do this as well to User talk:Id4abel who also has problems with his editing on these articles.

• June 15: Edit warring warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Jesús Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#SOTO.

This was a false accusation of 3rr where I had to explain his own edit warring to him.

• June 20: Three different warning notices at once regarding this diff at an RfC on another topic, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Section_header.

I did launch into a general soapbox discussion of editing issues, but it obviously was not a personal attack on another editor, one who I was quite unfamiliar with. And I did strike it.

• June 21: Disruptive editing warning regarding this diff at WP:OR Noticeboard, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#OR_noticeboard.

Because I complained about User:SPECIFICO coming to the WP:OR noticeboard to dismiss policy issues and refusing to discuss policy. See the seven section discussion of his WP:OR entries to Huerta de Soto article.

• June 26: Edit warring complaint regarding this diff at Huerta de Soto article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Skousen.

My first revert of WP:OR discussed at both Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#More_WP:OR_using_Skousen and Talk:Jesús_Huerta_de_Soto#Removal_of_Barry-related_WP:OR.2FSynth.

• June 27: Edit war warning regarding this diff at Austrian economist Murray Rothbard article, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#Rothbard.

My first revert of new POV controversial material. The article had been protected for two days previously because of my June 2 3rr/Edit Warring complaint about User:SPECIFICO trying to denigrate Rothbard. This time SPECIFICO was removing the fact that Rothbard is an economist from the first sentence, despite four solid refs saying so and despite previous talk page rejection of such a suggestion. This is a prime example of his extreme bias against competing Austrian economists which leads to his disruptive editing.

• June 28: Off topic personal remarks warning regarding this diff at Murray Rothbard RfC, discussed at User_talk:Carolmooredc#June_2013.

After taking my advice to start an RfC on Rothbard as an economist, SPECIFICO objected that I wrote "Sources are what counts on Misplaced Pages, not editors' personal opinions and WP:OR." (This in reply to his criticizing my RfC support for economist.)

Thanks for any help. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 19:59, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• Note At first glance, there does seem to be some merit as to the unnecessary aggressiveness. I don't have time to dig deep tonight, but hopefully someone will. Bumping because they needs to be addresses and not just archived. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carolmooredc Addition: Thinking about it, realized the last three talk page notices came after I put a talk page message about Wikihounding on his talk page (corrected at this diff) because he followed me in 30 hours to 4 pages he had not edited before and there either reverted me or left a negative comment. So maybe this became his new mode of harassment. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 12:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  Editor SPECIFICO seems to be in a habit of handing out Warning with citations to WP policies to any user who has reverted his change as seen here or here or here or here(even this editor warned him for wiki hounding) (and might be many more - as edit history for user talk shows a persistent trend of showering warning to a particular editor for a period of time and then moving on to some one else - depending on who he is having an argument with) -as this usually seems to happen to any editor he might be involved in argument over content - Carol Moore just might be his recent favorite.  A m i t  ❤  17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand this should be read through for the history these two editors have had  A m i t  ❤  18:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

: FYI, I do refer to that ANI in my June 27th entry above. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 22:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The edit history shows a campaign to revise articles that touch upon Austrian Economics to push readers toward viewing that school of economics as a crank theory. Supposedly SPECIFICO is an Austrian economist so this whole thing makes little sense. I live in a mostly free country where people are allowed to support most any view they like, and advocate that view to others, but Misplaced Pages has different goals. The wikihounding that followed has not yet reached epic proportions, but it has grown well into the realm of unacceptable. Using reasonable sounding edit descriptions that conceal the actual actions taken, making a few useful edits to make finding the dishonest ones harder, citing respected sources and half sticking to what the sources actually said, deleting a claim with a valid cited source and attempting to defend the delete with no source whatsoever, and so on. It is masterful gaming of the system. I applaud the intelligence behind the campaign. There is dedication and craftiness that would be one of the biggest assets ever if applied to improving articles rather than used to push unsupported propaganda against a theory onto an unfamiliar population.

My first encounter with this editor was at 20:42 on 8 June 2013 where I replaced uncited and badly slanted text with cited text that better follows the neutrality policy within the Hans-Hermann Hoppe article. I think the second encounter is when the wikihounding began. This is were I think this Misplaced Pages system has a giant flaw in that it is much easier for an editor dedicated to making the article push one point of view rather than easier for the collaborative effort that Wikipiedia is supposed to encourage.

The first abuse of the edit war warning only resulted in a prolonged argument about how the three revert rule means whatever SPECIFICO says that it means.

The second abuse of the edit war warning had no response from SPECIFICO at all. Abel (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

User Abel's analysis of User:Specifico's modus operandi is excellent, though it would take a huge WP:ANI to document it all with diffs. It's just easier to document the most obviously behavioral manifestations.

As we all know, such subtle disruptive/tenditious editing can cause a lot of anger, hurts collaboration and can lead to edit warring. I'm quite burned out after a couple months of it with User:Specifico and barely have the energy to finish off several new or improved sections on articles on other topics that were interrupted when I first noticed this destructive editing pattern on a couple articles I've watched for a few years, as well as related BLPs. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 04:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion, supported by my inspection of his editions and my encounters in talk pages with him, he doesn't edit articles about austrianism trying to enhance the material, with definitions, perspectives, and critics in a neutral way. Instead, I believe he destroy the articles when he tries to harm the intelectual reputation of austrian thinkers. He doesn't respect Misplaced Pages policies about consensus and references in the way to achieve the goal of destroy those reputations, and his way to talk to users is totally wrong, it seems he believes he is an battle field with "enemies" that should be exterminate. I don't know if he is concious of the diference of an hostile schoolar debate and what are the porpouses of Misplaced Pages talks.--Sageo (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• More evidence to support my point about how this system has an enormous design flaw in that it took SPECIFICO seconds to pepper the article with failed verification, not in citation given, and such tags with completely blank edit summaries yet took me I don't know how long to hunt down and type up exact quotes to show how each and every one of those tags was complete and utter nonsense. Abel (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I should note that this one article alone has more of that type of attack. These three were together and so easier to find. Usually the attacks are performed with far more stealth. Also, this is just one article. Given the number of edits made, there are likely hundreds more to track down and correct. Abel (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• How many boards have you been to about Specifico now? As I recall they all failed to get any response. OR, NPOV, BLP etc Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

June 15th - Notice that you appeared to be edit warring. Edit warring does not require 3rr. You can edit war with less or more reversions. Given that you were repeatedly removing sourced content, this can be considered edit-warring without crossing the 3rr bright line.

June 21st - Given you had already raised this as various places, it could quite easily be seen as disruptive editing. Close to forum shopping.

June 26th - More reversion despite no traction on the OR arguments.

June28th - Given that you have repeatedly tried to get Specifico sanctioned for NPOV, OR, BLP violations at various noticeboards (and failed), your comments could certainly be taken by Specifico as a personal attack on his editing. I read that comment as you accusing him of editing out of his opinion and OR rather than from a source-base.

In short, specifico should not be templating you so much. You should not be dragging him to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So those were all responses to CarolMooreDC's original dated comments above?Abel (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

To User:Only in death: First, of course, you only are summarizing his/her claims all still at User talk:Carolmooredc, not my responses and corrections. Also, note that two editors were against Specifico's addition of WP:OR content unrelated to the subject of the Biography on the talk page but we didn't want to edit war by reverting User:Specifico again. I went to WP:BLPN with the OR issue and no one responded; who knows why. I asked at Editors assistance (my question) if it would be ok to go to WP:ORN since no response. Two longtime editors said yes. So I did. So that is not "dragging him/her to every noticeboard under the sun when you are in a content dispute." And this WP:ANI is a behavioral issue.

Not to ignore your mention of NPOVN - This NPOVN was regarding another editor soapboxing; when Specifico demanded evidence, and since s/he often collaborated with that editor in soapboxing, I provided evidence of them both doing it together and/or in his/her biased soapbox. That was Specifico's disruptive behavior of the month of May. I'm sure after this ANI, whatever the outcome, Specifico will find a new disruptive behavior. The only thing that keeps Specifico from totally destroying BLPs of those s/he detests seems to be taking her/him to various noticeboards. And when there are only two or three editors on an article (and s/he ignores the other two even when they explain policy clearly) that is the standard WP:Dispute measure. (I'd try dispute resolution noticeboard but s/he tends to ignore or mock usual Wiki dispute resolution processes.) CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Id4abel has been canvassing like-minded users in order to bring them to this noticeboard thread. — goethean 12:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

How is notifying people who are already involved but possibly not aware, regardless of their feelings, canvassing? Canvassing is trying to recruit people to jump on your side. I only asked that they share their experiences to make this report more complete. Abel (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Four points:

1. For CarolMooreDC (and Abel) – just what course of action would you recommend?

• You got me, what options are available? Abel (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

2. I have found SPECIFICO to be extremely reluctant to tone down the various warnings posted. This has been disappointing and frustrating for me because I've pointed out that the warnings were ill-founded.

3. Advice on Abel's user talkpage was posted about the need to be more neutral with ANI notification's. A positive response was made by Abel.

4. With this in mind, the concern about votestacking is not a major one. For myself, I consider myself more of a Wikipedian than "like-minded". – S. Rich (talk) 20:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Possible course of action: I can see from user contributions s/he is laying low right now, so I don't know if a short block would even phase her/him. I think User:SPECIFICO would take seriously something like a short topic ban, say a month from Austrian economics topics and related BLPs (and any related topics, like libertarian BLPs and topics, should s/he disrupt them). Then s/he might show some respect for Misplaced Pages processes and for other editors who have an interest in these topics.

Also, Austrian economics/libertarianism/various BLPs involved here are very complicated topics and there are a wide variety of views that different individuals can hold in relation to any of them. Therefore, it should not be assumed that those who are interested in a topic and argue to follow WP policies have some overwhelming bias regarding any topic that is in any way as strong as the explicit negative biases expressed by User:SPECIFICO in user and article talk pages, biases which have led to his/her repeatedly ignoring Misplaced Pages policies. This false and simplistic allegation has been made by User:SPECIFICO in the past with no real evidence and inferred by one or two others since then. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 21:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a topic ban is appropriate. A substantial portion of SPECIFICO's topic edits have been worthwhile. He has more of a problem with editor interaction, which I've seen and described as high-handed at times. Rather, a one-way WP:IBAN would work better, where SPECIFICO could not violate the 4 restrictions described in IBAN. Who would be the beneficiaries of the IBAN? CarolMooreDC and Abel are certainly two candidates. For myself, I would not care to be included (as SPECIFICO may interact with me). If other editors wish to be included as beneficiaries of the IBAN, then (assuming they'd had some difficulties with SPECIFICO), they could say to him "I want your IBAN extended to include me because of ....." – S. Rich (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not dispute that 90% of User:SPECIFICO's edits were more or less within policy guidelines. The problem is the 10% which were very biased and where he refused to follow policy, or listen to other editors in regard to policy, and would ridicule other editors or the subjects of BLPs when he was challenged.

Moreover, User:SPECIFICO's refusal to interact and reply to policy concerns, including ones raised by you (SRich32977) on several articles, has been part of the problem, so it's not the solution. Only after I left the following in a response to one of his alleged edit warring alerts did he quickly respond to four or five outstanding issues raised on article talk pages. At this diff I wrote: Also note per various edits of yours, quoting WP:BRD, "If one skips the Discussion part, then restoring one's edit is a hostile act of edit warring and is not only uncollaborative, but could incur sanctions, such as a temporary block." And I've noted several cases on several articles where you have done problematic edits of materials others have reverted without bothering to respond on the talk page. Any IBAN would be just an excuse for User:SPECIFICO to keep doing biased edits and then ignore others complaints and revert them.

It would help if noticeboards were more responsive on complicated/abstruse/non-sexy economics-related issues we need to put before them. (And with BLPs it can be hard to figure out sometimes which noticeboard we should go to first, etc.) User:SPECIFICO has been known sometimes to give in to community opinions which go against him. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 13:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Carol makes a good point that an IBAN would likely lead to more of the problematic behavior rather than less. Clearly the recent lack of editing after prolific editing is mostly, if not completely, due to this discussion. Which suggests that some type of sanction is needed, and would likely be followed. Which would be a benefit to the entire project. Of course it also shows how a temporary ban of any kind will likely be followed, but not have any permanent impact on behavior. On the issue of duration, "Bans are not intended as a short-term measure. Sometimes a ban may be for a fixed period of some months. More often no period is specified, because the ban is a decision that the editor may not edit or participate in the specified matters on this site." That seems to suggest any limited ban should at least be a period of no less than a few months. That agrees with the evidence that a quarter or more might actually be seen as meaningful, and so has a chance of making a lasting impact on behavior. The topic ban looks like the most logical option. Abel (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I was tossing up commenting on this thread but I'm jumping in for a couple of reasons: 1, Carol's very first diff is from a conversation between myself and SPECIFICO - part of a 3-to-4-way discussion about cleaning up the walled garden that is the collection of Ludwig von Mises Institute-related BLPs. (Which brings me to...) 2, Carol's last point, which I think is the most pertinent one here. The community isn't responsive to threads like this because a few minutes of looking at the history suggests this is all one giant content issue, because there is one giant content issue here. Editor behaviour is distinct from that, and should be dealt with, but it is obviously difficult to separate the two when they are so intertwined. Without any prior knowledge or interest in the subject, I was asked by another editor if I could help clean up a couple of related BLPs. I did (a bit) and then organically progressed to a couple of related BLPs (and they are very much "related"). For notability, many rely almost entirely on "significant coverage" from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, whose articles in turn rely on coverage from other institute figures, and so on. Each is published extensively in blogs and journals and periodicals that are related to the institute because those are the publications most interested in their views. Very few of them would be considered "mainstream". That doesn't mean they aren't notable but many of the issues relate to how their work is responded to by institute colleagues. Should the views of institute colleagues count for more or less than external non-institute responders? Should we allow notability to be established only (or even primarily) by institute-related coverage given many are unquestionably reliable sources with regard to libertarian economic theory. Part of the problem is that the walled garden was established long ago and those responsible have had no desire to clean it up (some of those editors being the subjects of the articles themselves). Editors like SPECIFICO have tried to clean it up (that 90% Carol refers to) but being of a different school of thought there is obviously a motivation for doing so. Such a clean up requires some frank discussion, some hard decisions and some ruthless weed-whacking. The issue is where that weed-whacking becomes editor-whacking. If anything, I would suggest a short topic-ban to give SPECIFICO a chance to calm down and re-find that line between weed-whacking and editor-whacking, though it would seem he has self-imposed a short break as a result of this thread anyway. As for the content, there's probably a good opportunity for interested editors to get together and work on a mini-project/editing drive to clean up economics BLPs (and not just institute-related ones). Stalwart111 06:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for Stalwart111's comments. There's no doubt that many of the Mises/Rothbard/Rockwell/etc.-related articles are filled with WP:OR and primary sources by fans (and sometimes detractors). (I watched and tweaked Murray Rothbard for years but never bothered to correct the obvious issues; so many articles, so little time.)

However, when we actually start to beef up articles, there are lots of secondary credible and even notable sources that can be used. The Murray Rothbard lead and Jesus Huerta de Soto's whole article are perfect examples of improved material since SPECIFICO started complaining. But see the talk pages and they are filled with sections with a couple editors arguing with SPECIFICO about her deleting things that might make the individual or group look credible while adding questionable, biased or WP:OR/synth info. When s/he can't stop us from complaining about or modifying or reverting biased or policy-violating edits, or asking for help from other editors per WP:Dispute, s/he resorts to various serial questionable behaviors from soapboxing, to ignoring to templating. S/he needs to chill. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 18:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Specifico, as he has in all of these NB discussions, has laid low. In this case his behavior is a bit different. Not only is he letting the discussion go along without input, he's not edited anything for the past week. (Unusual for him.) So the "chilling" effect is in force, even without formal action. But what about those additional 90% positive edits that remain for future posting? Would a topic ban (e.g., enforced additional chilling) end up in a permanent retirement from WP? (I hope not.) But a topic ban, of whatever length, would not address the 10% problem, which is his interaction with other editors and POV. So, I will again argue for the IBAN. Specifico would not be able to post 3RR or OR or any other warnings. Specifico would not be able to castigate or admonish or correct or criticize other editors. His talk page comments, which should be focused on article improvement, would be tempered by the requirement to consider and heed IBAN restrictions. Any proposed controversial changes to articles would have to be resolved through other methods. An IBAN would be effective in achieving the goal of article improvement, which a topic ban cannot do. All Specifico has to do at this point is post a notice here that says "I agree to an IBAN with editors X, Y, and Z." Then we can close this and see if the results match my predictions. – S. Rich (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The 10% is the POV, WP:OR, edits or reverts he does that need discussion. If you want to talk about what percent of his talk page/noticeboard behavior is soapbox, mocking, irrelevant, non-constructive (or just ignoring people and threatening to take to edit warring if they revert him because he's ignored them), etc. you are talking 66% of his edits. So unless this means he cannot complain when we revert his problematic edits (or revert our reverts) - this makes no sense to me. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 18:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at the 4 restrictions that IBAN entails. He would not be able to make threats, mocking comments, NB postings, etc about you or other specific editors. The fourth restriction addresses your concerns about reverts. IOW, if he did not like an edit that you made, he'd have to post the reason on the article talk page and justify a desired change (without referring to you as an editor.) Then you (or someone else) could make the change to your edit. – S. Rich (talk) 22:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:IBAN#Interaction_ban: I should have read down to #4. Gave up too soon. Too good to be true! CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 00:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

With respect to both Carol and SRich, I really don't think an IBAN is the right solution for this particular problem and I'm questioning the wisdom even of a topic ban. These are long-term content issues that can really only be resolved by a group of editors working together. As Carol quite rightly points out, "so many articles, so little time". There is obviously a clean up effort underway, though still among a small group of "expert" editors. Banning one of those editors from interacting with some of the others is counter-productive, I think, especially when his remaining interaction/collaboration options will be limited to only those who agree with his world view. It creates an "us-and-them" mentality. I think he's frustrated by Misplaced Pages's long-term acceptance of questionable content in this particular area and then frustrated again when some of his enthusiastic efforts to clean it up have been delayed/questioned/opposed. He's taking that frustration out the editors themselves - "you haven't cared about cleaning this up for the 5 years it has been here, why are you opposing my clean up efforts now?" I think there is agreement from other editors that SPECIFICO's behaviour was unacceptable. I think there is tacit agreement even from SPECIFICO himself (given his self-imposed wikibreak). If it continues, I think there would be strong community support for sanctions to prevent further disruption. But I think anything now would be a punishment rather than damage-prevention. I've had positive, collegial interactions with almost everyone involved here so I know each person is capable of moving forward from this in a manner that lets bygones be bygones. I also think there's some value in everyone having a read of WP:DTR. Everyone involved is perfectly capable of crafting a well-written line or two and really nobody here should be using templates to "talk" to each other. New rule: if you add a template to another user's talk page about an economics BLP, it had better be a barnstar! Ha ha. Stalwart111 03:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

S. Rich has won me over to the permanent IBAN idea. Not an ideal solution, but probably the best solution available. Abel (talk) 06:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Surely the "best solution available" is to accept that Carol's well-explained post and your subsequent endorsement of it have together had the desired effect of prompting a wikibreak and a re-think? You'll not likely get community agreement for the implementation of, "not an ideal solution". Sanctions are for stopping disruption. The disruption has stopped. Anything beyond that is punishment, which is not what bans/blocks are about. Stalwart111 10:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

One-way interaction bans do not work, and have never worked. They are unfair in that almost always it takes two to cause an issue. Also IBANS are for problematic editor conduct towards other editors. Not for good faith content disputes. An IBAN would impact just as strongly on Abel or CMDC. You have issues over content, deal with it on the talk pages. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The only reason the disruption stopped was the pending ban or block. Choosing no ban or block would put us all right back to disruption, making all this effort a pointless exercise in futility. Abel (talk) 14:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I did remain skeptical of IBAN despite my comments. RE:User:Stalwart111, obviously one reason an admin hasn't dealt with it by now is User:SPECIFICO's (probably temporary) disappearance. Hopefully later s/he will not claim that there was "no problem" and it was a "frivolous complaint" and start with some new disruptive pattern. Coming here with a new complaint now hopefully would be taken more seriously.

I just wish someone would look at and comment constructively Misplaced Pages:ORN#WP:OR.2FSynth_argumentation_in_biography, an aggravating dispute in all this. Even Specifico admitted s/he would not like it if I went around to his favorite economists' articles and added WP:OR mentions of Friedrich Hayek's views that contradict some point made by the economist; i.e., material from a source that makes no mention at all of the economist in question. (per WP:OR we only use "published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented"...) We really have to start beefing up community input with some sexy/exciting new program to get more former, experienced editors back. Sigh... CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 14:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Alleged hounding by Badmintonhist

User:Badmintonhist's behavior, largely but not exclusively in recent days, indicates that thwarting my editing constitutes a substantial part of his participation on Misplaced Pages. He has followed me to article after article (here is a warning I left him earlier today about it, which did not stop him from continuing). In this edit to a talk page, he states that he is unwilling to accept any version of an article that I propose. He has lately decided that my disagreement with him must mean I have Asperger's. I would like to request administrator intervention (whether a sanction or a friendly push) in order to get Badmintonhist to stop harassing me through hounding and comments. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps she can't help herself but Roscelese habitually makes snarky, insulting comments, in edit summaries and the talk pages, about pretty much everyone who disagrees with her, particularly if the subject is a political hot button issue. It would behoove a fair minded administrator to follow this pattern which will reveal one of the most consistently rude editors in the Misplaced Pages enterprise. Everyone gets testy at times. In the case of Roscelese, however, insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi. 02:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)Badmintonhist (talk) 02:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This has every appearance of WP:HOUNDING. I note that Badmintonhist says nothing in defense of the purported hounding or stalking activities. Binksternet (talk) 02:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor interaction chart is here. Most of the interaction is Roscelese editing an article first, then Badmintonhist coming in afterward. Binksternet (talk) 02:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, Badmintonhist, if you're going to make claims of an editor making insulting comments or that she has a pattern of this behavior in regard to political opposition, I'd suggest posting some evidence. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 02:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC):

A fine idea. Since I don't generally find myself if this sort of forum I'm rather naive about them. For starters let's say that her most recent exchange with me: "Do you or do you not know what a press release is?" followed by "welp" (edit summary) "So that's a 'no'. Good to know." is quite typical. She generally likes to claim that folks who disagree with her are incompetent. Give me a little time and I'll find plenty of examples. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)PS As for the supposed hounding we are attracted to the same kinds of issues and I often find her editing contentious and partisan. By the way, I've been somewhat successful in amending articles that Roscelese and also Binksternet (who has weighed in here on her side) have tried to steer in a different direction, which may help to explain things a bit. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC) PS: The articles on Pro-life feminism and Maafa 21 are examples.

• Far more concerning is this edit summary; an editor who thinks that edit-warring is OK if your fourth revert is 24 hours and 1 minute past the first one is someone who hasn't read WP:EW, which states "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation". I almost always block editors I find gaming the system like that, so I would strongly suggest that you don't. Black Kite (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not only that, but the three edits from today at this article suggest that a reading of WP:BRD might not go amiss either. The IP does not need consensus to revert Badminstonhist's edit, and BH should not have immediately re-reverted. The more I look at this, the more problematic it appears to be. Black Kite (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• But these reverts mentioned above by this IP edit's and its summaries bring doubt too(these are the only two edits done by this IP). This might be just an involved editor logged out to make a point.  A m i t  ❤  17:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I assure you, it's not me. I would not have been violating 1RR in order to revert, so had I desired to do so, I would have done so under my own account. Whether it's someone else, I don't know. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I went back about 15 months ago figuring that this was around the time I first had significant interaction with Roscelese . Instead I found a series of what are supposed to be "edit summaries" directed at her fellow editor Collect, who, judging by his numerous barnstars, at least, seems to be a respected contributor. Here's some examples:

• enough trolling
• ahaha so much fail, Collect
• blah blah blah
• I'm seeing some real WP:COMPETENCE issues here
• Supporting what you write with sources? That's crazy!
• How many times will I have to repeat myself
• Oh yeah, I'd forgot you're one of those people who wave the BLP flag to cover up POV-pushing
• More nonsense from edit warrior

Those are just her "edit summaries." I didn't look too closely at the actual "dialogue" which took place at the Talk page for Pro-life feminism but I did catch this one:

Where the hell do you get the idea that you can make these rubbish claims about the monolith of Irish women?

Around this same time she told another editor "your edits are ridiculous" and chided someone else on his/her presumed bigotry. I'm sure I'll have more examples of the Rosclese style later. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This is all very interesting (and I'm sure it will be even more interesting to read that discussion), but none of it explains or justifies your hounding, stated intention to prevent me from editing, or "diagnoses." Does this mean that you recognize that you were wrong and are planning to change your behavior? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

This really doesn't have anything to do with what appears to be, at first glance, a pretty clear cut case of hounding. If Collect has an issue with Roscelese, he can bring it up himself, and Collect is no stranger to commenting on noticeboards and such. Can you address the issue of what appears to be a case of you following around another editor to unrelated articles and not bring up irrelevant comments that are over a year old. Gamaliel (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding my supposed hounding, as I have said, we tend to be on different sides of topics we are both interested in. As for the article on Care Net I had already effectively relented on the point about CommonwelthCitizen's version rather than Roscelese's version being our starting point, by editing from Roscelese's version. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Instead of self-righteously declaring yourself superior based on someone else's alleged wrongdoings and your own amateur psychoanalysis, you ditch this sort of behavior entirely, then you report it when someone else engages in it. The issue here is your uncivil behavior, which you're beginning to escalate yet again. I've talked to you about this before, and you are well aware this is a problem. I suggest you both avoid each other for a few days before trouts and blocks result from this discussion. You've already crossed the line with your comments above, please try to control yourself. Gamaliel (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm utterly puzzled by what you found objectionable about my previous comment. Surely not the term "aspies" which people with Asperger's syndrome themselves use, and even if you did object to that, which you shouldn't, what was objectionable about myfirst sentence? I find this all quite curious. The foulest of four letter words can pass muster here but a comment that someone finds vaguely insensitive gets canned. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You should not be commenting in such a personal matter about other editors, especially ones you are in a conflict with. I don't understand why that would be such a curious concept. Gamaliel (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I think User:Badmintonhist is being a hypocrite when he criticizes Roscelese: "insulting what she perceives as the political opposition is simply her standard modus operandi" because this is exactly how I see Badmint's behavioral pattern on talkpages. He seems to prefer taking jabs at other editors rather than discuss content issues, and takes disagreement personally. He has also encouraged battleground behavior in other editors, e.g. at the SPLC and Media Matters articles, so I'm not surprised to see his conduct brought here for further scrutiny. El duderino 03:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Commenting to make sure this doesn't get archived without a resolution. That will only allow it to happen again. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't have much experience in the area of topic bans but perhaps we can craft some sort of prohibition on the types of comments they can make towards one another and make it enforceable with immediate blocking. It appears that Badmintonhist feels that either Roscelese's alleged behavior gives him license to violate rules of civility, or that his comments are not uncivil at all. This seems to me to be a contradictory stance that smacks of wiki lawyering, but I will agf and assume it is genuine. So if this is the case it seems the solution is to prohibit such comments altogether, from either party. Gamaliel (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm less concerned about the comments themselves (water off a duck's back, as they say) than about Badmintonhist's intention, evident in comments and in hounding, to prevent me from editing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixing the bad sitenotice for VisualEditor

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz and Margo Feiden Galleries

Dear Administrators,

When Misplaced Pages changed its rules to allow an individual to edit content about him or herself, I finally allowed a friend, a professional technical writer, Robyn42, to contribute content to Misplaced Pages based on my career as a gallerist, an author, and a member of New York's professional theater community. Recently another contributor, Chicago57th, has also contributed content about me with my approval.

Suddenly a man identified as Hullaballoo Wolfowitz embarked on a strange (the kindest adjective I can use) campaign against me and my gallery, unilaterally deleting wholesale from Misplaced Pages content that mentions my name or my gallery. Further, of his many deletions Mr. Wolfowitz did not present even one for discussion within the Misplaced Pages community. Instead, Mr. Wolfowitz sought to justify his behavior not by offering good reasons that stand up to scrutiny but, instead, resorting to spurious attacks on my character and conduct.

In the article on Joel-Peter Witkin, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted my gallery’s exhibition for Witkin, saying that the text was “unsourced” and “promotional.” As anyone can see, the "Chronology" section of Joel-Peter Witkin's article contains more than 100 similar listings for exhibitions of Witkin’s work. Fewer than 10 of those exhibitions are sourced. Surely, each listing is equally “promotional” in mentioning the venue for the exhibition cited. What is the rationale for deleting only one, the exhibition at my gallery? If Mr. Wolfowitz were to delete each of the similarly unsourced exhibitions from this section, Joel-Peter Witkin would be left with fewer than 10 exhibitions, not the 100 exhibitions that remain in "Chronology" now.

In the article on Raphael Soyer, Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted my gallery from a list of galleries and museums where Soyer exhibited. Mr. Wolfowitz also deleted my gallery’s highly-regarded, scholarly catalogue, “Raphael Soyer: Looking Over the Artist’s Shoulder.” My gallery’s Soyer catalogue is in the collections of museums, libraries, and galleries all over the world. Yet Mr. Wolfowitz deleted it, saying (amazingly) that it was “off-topic.”

In the article on Kurt Vonnegut, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted Vonnegut’s exhibition at my gallery in the section “Art Career.” Our first contribution was a single sentence: “He exhibited at the Margo Feiden Galleries Ltd. in New York." Mr. Wolfowitz deleted this material, saying it was “unsourced” and “promotional." We put it back, sourcing it with two university library archives that include the material. Mr. Wolfowitz again deleted our contribution saying that it was “spammery” and objecting to the library archives as sources. We again posted our contribution, this time with additional material sourced with three newspapers. Mr. Wolfowitz deleted that as well. Had all this behavior been a good-faith effort on Mr. Wolfowitz’s part, he could have used the Talk page to ask for even more than our five sources. The fact is that Vonnegut was represented by my gallery, which curated his art and gave him a one-man exhibition in 1980. Mr. Wolfowitz’s repeated deletion of this well-sourced exhibition makes it clear that his concerns are not as he states them to be. It is also clear that he is not concerned with the opinions of the Misplaced Pages community but is determined to delete my name and any reference to my gallery for reasons best known to himself.

In the article on the film The Misfits, Mr. Wolfowitz deleted the depiction of the film’s actors discussing the script with playwright Arthur Miller. This "backstage moment" was drawn by the artist Al Hirschfeld. The production aspect of this film is a significant topic in American film history, and this image serves the article by being the unique visual documentation of it.

In another article, Mr. Wolfowitiz again deleted an Al Hirschfeld image and the accompanying text—this time for the celebrated canine actor Skippy. Mr. Wolfowitz described our content as “particularly outlandish promotional editing.” However, this is a case where the subject’s portrayal by Al Hirschfeld, the chronicler of twentieth-century performing arts, truly contributes something substantial about the fame achieved by the article's subject, a dog. If Skippy, a dog, deserves his own article, should not that article include Skippy's rare distinction among animal actors of being portrayed by Al Hirschfeld? Doesn’t such a rare distinction at the very least merit discussion before the content is deleted?

Mr. Wolfowitz applied the same heavy hand in his deletion of Hirschfeld images, this time from the article on actress Dolly Haas. Dolly Haas was married to Al Hirschfeld for 50 years. Two of the drawings Mr. Wolfowitz deleted served the article by documenting Haas’ American stage career, a topic that had been completely absent before we made our contribution.

Now to Valerie Solanas, where Mr. Wolfowitz has displayed a particular animus against me in his edits and comments. To begin with, he deleted the widely-published accounts of my meeting with Valerie Solanas on the day she shot Andy Warhol. Once more, Mr. Wolfowitz made these deletions without any discussion on the matter. In point of fact, when another editor attempted to revert Mr. Wolfowitz’s edit and initiate a discussion within the Misplaced Pages community, Mr. Wolfowitz went into the article and deleted our contribution again, before the discussion had run its course. What Mr. Wolfowitz called a “self-sourced account” was in fact sourced with three major articles and interviews: The New York Times, Interview Magazine, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The controversy is there for you to read in all its detail on the Talk Page Talk:Valerie Solanas.

In summation, one test of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior is this: what if every editor behaved as he did—deleting contributions without discussion, removing important exhibitions and catalogues of artists’ work, again without discussion, and removing objectively sourced and documented accounts with the claim that they are “self-sourced?” In short, if everybody behaved as Mr. Wolfowitz did, Misplaced Pages could not function at all. I will also add that Mr. Wolfowitz used inappropriate language throughout.

These are but a few examples of Mr. Wolfowitz’s behavior, by which he has gone through Misplaced Pages deleting my name and that of my gallery over and over and over again, almost everywhere that they appeared. In light of this pattern of behavior by which Mr. Wolfowitz is attempting to erase me, I am requesting that he be blocked from editing material relating to me or to my work.

Respectfully, Margo Feiden Factor-ies (talk) 06:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and notified Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk · contribs) regarding this discussion. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Factor-ies (talk · contribs) followed shortly after: . I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have not reviewed any of the content, and so I am making no comment on it. My general opinion: this is one example of why no one should edit articles about themselves or their corporations, or add/delete material about their activities or their corporations' activities in any articles (Snowden and the Booz Allen editors are a recent example). If a person's information is notable enough to be included, a third party will likely add it, and that's the way it should be. Taroaldo ✉ 07:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Granted, I have not looked thoroughly into Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's edits mentioned here, but so far, I am not seeing any problem with HW's edits. Unsourced edits are being added to these articles and HW is merely removing them. I suggest to the OP that if they want to add content to these articles, they should source these edits to third-party reliable sources. The fact that there is other content that is not properly sourced is not a reason to add more unsourced content. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Please extend every courtesy to another scion of the Wolfowitz clan. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure Misplaced Pages ever specifically "allowed" someone to edit articles about themselves - even Jimbo's phrase was that they should only ever propose changes on the article talkpage. I usually go so far as to say that they can remove WP:BLP-infringing content if it's not properly sourced. Major changes should, ethically, never be done by the subject - period. No comment on HW's specific actions here, yet (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• There's a lot to digest here, but after a broad overview I'd say Wolfowitz acted appropriately and even commendably. Our policies relating to conflict-of-interest editing are, to be fair, somewhat complex. The reason it isn't utterly prohibited is because article subjects need the right to remove false information about themselves from articles. Also, some very broad types of COI are almost impossible to avoid: if neither believers or non-believers could edite articles on religion, there wouldn't be many editors left. Beyond that though, most other COI editing, and in particular spam and self-promotion, IS prohibited. To quote WP:COI, "You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family or your close friends. If you or they are notable enough, someone else will create the article. You should also avoid writing about yourself or people you know in articles on other topics." Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• First, WP does allow people to edit articles about themselves and their interests, whether avocational or commercial. It very strongly and rightly recommends otherwise in the case of a strong commercial connection, but there has never been consensus to prohibit; although Jimbo is indeed one of those who advocates prohibition, he is not dictator, and his opinion should not be quoted as policy. I have looked at some of the edits. I'm pretty drastic myself at removing promotional links & mentions , but at least some of the items mentioned seem to at least need explanation: (1) For the Witkin show, I do not see the basis of rejecting this particular one, and I do not think it would have been removed had another editor added it. (2) The Vonnegut material was indeed documented from the first. The published Lily Library and University of Delaware archives descriptions are appropriate sources for plain description. In the past, many such descriptions were unpublished and cryptic, but the availability on the web has made these widely available (and used in WP), However (3) For the Soyer catalog, I do not see it in WorldCat. (4)For the Hirschfeld drawings, they were added as NFCC,and the criteria for their relevance is rather strict (in my opinion, stricter than it should be but that's another matter) Hirschfeld made a great many drawings, and illustrated large parts of the cultural world of his period in ways that add a justly famous degree of understanding, so the decision of which ones to add is exactly the sort of thing that is most subject to COI and is best done by a uninvolved editor. I note that the captions for them included, unnecessarily, the name of the gallery--including that is a very clear indication of promotional use, and would certainly lead any unbiased person to be exceedingly skeptical about their insertion. This illustrates the problem: a promotional editor may make good judgement, or not,and must be judged by the results. Had MF used better judgement in writing the captions, and judging what images to include, the effort would have been more successful.

DGG ( talk ) 17:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see where the reporting party tried to work this out with HW before coming here. I would also note that COI editing is not against policy, no matter how unwise it is. Each edit is supposed to be based on its own merits. I suggest closing and taking any concerns to the actual editor on the article talk page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is strongly discouraged for very good reasons. The number of reasonable COI editors I've encountered I can probably count on one hand. Most are blatant COIs and end up getting blocked, or everything they do is reverted because it does not fit within the scope of the project. Taroaldo ✉ 20:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. There is such a thing as a COI editor who makes positive contributions, but far more often they try to sell something, push an agenda, or just "get their name out there". The current case appears to be a mixture of all three. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hullaballoo raised this at ANI a month ago .
• I agree with you, DGG. Many good editors edit about their avocational interests. Bearian (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear A Quest For Knowledge: Thank you for your comments on this, and your even-handed approach. Speaking to the subject of sourcing, of course it is very important. However, Mr. Wolfowitz was not consistent in his treatment of what he terms “unsourced” material. If being unsourced is sufficient grounds for immediate deletion, why did Mr. Wolfowitz not delete all the other unsourced material in the same article? Mr. Wolfowitz specifically targeted material about me, using a rationale that he did not apply to any other equivalent material. However, Mr. Wolfowitz removed material that he termed “unsourced” when solid sourcing was clearly there for all to see. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear DGG: Thank you very much for your contribution to this discussion. The Soyer catalogue we published can be sourced, for example If unsourced material was Mr. Wolfowitz’s objection, I would have been happy to add a source. I am fairly new to Misplaced Pages and was guided by the other material on that page. As to the Hirschfeld drawings, which included the gallery’s name in captioning, it is commonplace in the art world, in fact the industry standard, that when art is reproduced its location is noted. Would you not, in captioning a photograph of the Statue of Libery, say that it stands in New York Harbor? It is important to know where the original art is located, and examples of this practice can be found within Misplaced Pages on the pages for Mark Rothko, Isamu Noguchi, Henri Matisse, and Paul Klee, and many others. If including my name in the caption was what bothered Mr. Wolfowitz, he could have, and should have, notified me. We could then have opened that discussion to the Misplaced Pages community. Thank you again for your discussion here. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ethically, you should have known not to add your name, period. No discussion needed. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Dennis Brown: Thank you for joining in on this discussion. You are correct that I did not try to work these problems out with Mr. Wolfowitz before reporting them here. After reading your comments, I think that perhaps I should have done so. I did know that it was an option, but Mr. Wolfowitz himself never engaged with me, although he clearly had reason to. He could have, and should have, asked for sourcing--although sourcing was already provided for content that he deleted as uncourced. Such was his demeanor that I felt I needed to go to the Misplaced Pages community. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussing directly with the other edit is not just an option, it's a requirement. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dear Taraoldo: Thank you for your interest in these issues. I contributed content that I felt would stand on its own merit in an encyclopedic reference. Your experience with other COI editors is clearly unfortunate, but I feel certain that you would agree that my contributions should be judged on their own merits. Interested parties can help build Misplaced Pages and indeed, very often, interested parties have more knowlege and more accurate information than anyone else. On the other hand, third parties knowledgeable enough to write on a specific subject will almost never be purely unbiased. Let me ask you this: if Madame Curie suddenly came back to life, would you prohibit her from including her own biographical details in Misplaced Pages, or adding to articles on radioactivity? Of course not. The point is, if I am not able to add my gallery’s exhibition for Joel-Peter Witkin, and Joel-Peter Witkin cannot add it himself, would I have to rely on somebody that saw the exhibition in the Spring of 1970, remembered it, and cared enough to add it to Misplaced Pages? That scenario seems unlikely, and yet many people born after that exhibition should have the right to find that information on Misplaced Pages. Factor-ies (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If nobody "cared enough to add it", then it likely was not at all worthy to be added by anybody (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If such an event happened, I would respectfully discourage her, or any other historical figure, from adding to their own articles. Of course no one has greater insights into an individual's life than the person in question, but this project is an encyclopedia, not a collection of autobiographies and personal anecdotes. This means someone else should be capable of finding and adding the information if it is truly pertinent. If someone else doesn't add it, that should never green-light a COI edit. Taroaldo ✉ 04:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I for one am totally supportive of Margo's position. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz is an extremely disruptive editor. One small glance at his "contribution" history shows that his edits are almost exclusively deleting huge chunks from every article he stumbles upon. This is, in my opinion, the complete opposite of Misplaced Pages's philosophy. In fact his talk page is simply littered with messages from puzzled editors complaining about his behavior or even asking that he stop threaten them! I myself have been recently dealing with Mr. Wolfowitz on several articles and even reported him due to edit warring on his part. I was unfortunately distracted by my personal life and the complaint was filed away, but he seems to be at it again and I may have to report him again as he refuses to engage in conversation and seems to simply believe his opinion to be fact. Misplaced Pages is collaborative. Misplaced Pages editors should strive to make each article better to the best of their abilities, reworking passages they find are awkward, finding sources when there are none, etc..., not deleting half an article simply because you do not agree with its content. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Happy Evil Dude (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it has in fact been proposed, and rejected, that illustrations as used in WP carry credit lines. The consensus view is that this belongs on the image description page , which is linked, and satisfy attribution requirements. This applies even to artists and other creators and would apply even more to the mere owner or supplier of the image. DGG ( talk ) 00:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• The real problem here is that Factor-ies had not received much guidance on what is acceptable editing. (She has 56 edits. Five-six!) I note that the particular edits and reversions (above) were done 6 months ago. I've posted a welcome message & further advice on her talk page. Perhaps when she reviews WP policies, guidelines, 5P, etc. she'll understand what's going on. Let's be careful not to WP:BITE. – S. Rich (talk) 01:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• While Factor-ies may be a new account, Feiden is likely not a new editor,and there is strong evidence of sockpuppetry. See my original ANI report here . There is at least one Feiden edit as old as 2008. What underlies all this seems to be a long-running dispute over control of Hirschfeld's work, which at one point led to Hirschfeld suing Feiden, , and it's one facet of this that uploads of images by Feiden and related accounts pretty consistently failed to credit the origimal publication but listed the commercial gallery which sells them instead. Editors here should give Feiden's claims a more skeptical look. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whatever Margo's experience (or alter-ego) is doesn't matter as far as this discussion goes. Her complaint is not well founded and I recommend that it be closed. – S. Rich (talk) 01:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some of her complaint is not well founded, but at some much earlier point the underlying issues should have been discussed. The paragraph HW just contributed sheds more light on the matter for me than any previous discussion., and I wish they had said it a good deal earlier. The earlier AfD discussion HW mentions above is very relevant, and should have been followed up further. DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator observation) (like others in this thread): Why does a Google search for news about "Margo Feiden" result in just one hit? Shouldn't a notable business have at least a few more non-industry-specific "newspaper" mentions? —— 13:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, you need to do a Google News Archive search. Google News searches default to showing only results from the last month/30 days. Google's "Any Time" button is rather misleading. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Date range yields some (but not all) results, too. Weird. Thanks. —— 22:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

BLP semi?

I just discovered that Sherman Alexie has spent the last two weeks in a vandalized state (due to IPs) while two registered users touched it without noticing the vandalism. The page has been viewed almost 14,000 times in the last month. If this is happening on a page like Sherman Alexie, I'm concerned that the system for catching vandalism has broken down. Is there any good reason not to semi all BLPs at this point? Viriditas (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:VPP Sædon 10:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Or WP:RFPP? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I have pending changes protected for a month.....Lectonar (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I also went to pending-changes protect the article, but Lectonar got there before me. Bwilkins, it makes no sense to refer Viriditas to WP:RFPP, as this wasn't a request for protection but a request for input on whether all BLP's should be semi-protected. I suppose WP:VPP is your man per Saedon, yes. But I'll say I'm in favour of general semi of BLP's, despite the obvious objection that that'll make it even more frustrating for the non-wiki-savvy person who tries to remove negative stuff about themselves. Bishonen | talk 13:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC).

VPP might be the place to go, but one does not have to be a prophet to see that this will never catch on; I'd be in favour of pd lvl. 1 for BLP's....but neither that nor semi will catch dedicated people who really want to do harm (imho, the worst BLP violations come from registered autoconfirmed users anyway). Lectonar (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:RFPP would be the right place if Viriditas was requesting protection for a single BLP but if we're talking about all BLPs then that would need to take place at WP:VPP. As an aside, I would wholly support such a proposal, if not protection then at least pending changes. Sædon 20:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Let's hear it once again for IP editing... Ya wanna smack down vandalism, banning IP editing and requiring sign-in-to-edit would vaporize between 50 and 90 percent of it in an afternoon, I'm guessing. Carrite (talk) 18:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that's a really good policy suggestion. Was the vandalism really severe/obvious or was it more subtle (like changing dates)? (It's hard to tell from the link since it's no diff. DrPhen (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • And what percentage of good quality edits would that also prevent? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

An anecdotal guess, based on the edit histories that I look at — something in the range of 5 to 10%. And how many of those never would have registered if they had to? Carrite (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• These things aren't unusual. The Sherman Alexie page supposedly has 64 page watchers, but I'm sure most of those people are irregular editors, or abandoned the site years ago. Zagalejo^^^ 23:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Prolongued incivility and possible indef. block evasion concerns

UrbanNerd (talk · contribs) has been persistently incivil to a number of editors (myself included) over an extended period of time. Generally, he is ignored, though, from time to time, he receives a message reminding him of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and the like, and he has been blocked numerous times for personal attacks already. Still, the ignorance seemingly enables him to continue and the warnings/reminders/bloks are simply dismissed.

Some examples:

• 22:44, 2 July 2013: "Moxy, may I remind you this is not the place to gossip with the ladies... thanks. Once again Miesianiacal believes that BRD doesn't apply to him and he can add his usual british trash to every article and when reverted just reinstates and starts an edit war. I have never seen an editor with such a enormous bias and such disregard for BRD still editing here."
• 05:06, 2 July 2013: "Please follow BRD when your nonsense edits get reverted."
• 05:05, 2 July 2013: "Miesianiacals bias additions -- You added material which was filled with british trash as usual..."
• 21:34, 30 May 2013: "Even more Monarchist crap -- i've removed yet more monarchist rhetoric by everyones favorite monarchist editor..."
• 00:28, 29 May 2013: "Are you high on meth? Seriously?"
• 03:59, 22 May 2013: "o one here is an 'idiot' besides yourself..."
• 16:30, 21 April 2013: "I can assure you pal that I have lived in Ottawa for MANY years... more than your 26 years on this earth. I also have studied the city formally for years. So I can assure you I do in fact know this city better than most, including you. So your opinion of me is irrelevant and i could really care less. Your out of date 'inner-greenbelt' mentality at looking at the city as if it was 1988 and you were 65 years old is laughable."
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "Wow, I'm going to try and stay civil here, but your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."
• 18:08, 24 January 2013: "remove excessive canadian bias by known bias monarchist editor, and general pain in the a**."
• 03:01, 19 December 2012: "We both know that no one at the NBA article objects to your little pansy team count. No quit being a ass clown as usual. You're a terrible editor."
• 02:57, 7 November 2012: "Wow, your lack of intelligent contributions is breath taking... Stop making up fake consensuses and edit warring."
• 14:41, 25 October 2012: "it was changed to DMY yesterday moron..."
• 03:30, 25 October 2012: "Probably added by a useless Ozzy like yourself. Now go back to being irrelevant."
• 02:23, 16 October 2012: "Hey buddy, has your acne medication gone to your pee brain? F*ck right off with your attitude. At the time the news story came out it read that he resigned affective immediately. It has since been updated. It's easy for someone like you that sits at his computer all day dreaming of having any resemblance of a social life or even a single friend to get updates and then criticize others/act tough. You're not tough, you're an jag off. Please don't be so abrasive in the future. Thank you."

On a related but tangential matter, there's much to suggest UrbanNerd is the new user name of the indfinitely blocked Po' buster (talk · contribs) (that being the subsequent user name of the indefinitely blocked PhilthyBear (talk · contribs)): the general attitude illustrated above, plus the content and target of some of the attacks, as well as many similarities in patterns of editing (southern Ontario and Canadian urban-related matters, populations/demographics, lists of largest buildings, Ottawa, the National Capital Region, Toronto, Fanshawe College, Gangs in Canada, removing French language material, etc.), the very short time between when Po' buster was blocked and UrbanNerd began editing, and more.

Since UrbanNerd has been editing under that name now for over three years, I am not sure whether or not a sockpuppet investigation or checkuser is of any value anymore. Perhaps others who know better can advise on that.

I do believe, though, that, for however long UrbanNerd continues to edit here, some serious civility restrictions need to be placed upon him by the community. Do we have a precedent to follow? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The block log, together with this edit summary from today, suggest to me an editor that simply can't edit collegially. I'd be interested in what others think. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

  AGFing that edit summary, that could simply mean he is removing a "strange" message. However, the edit to his userpage that caused it to be speedy deleted as an attack page yesterday is quite illuminating. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have made a number of comments in recent discussions about the lax attitude the Misplaced Pages community seems to have about chronic incivility. I have pointed out that this has a negative effect on productive editors and can eventually cause people to give up on the project. This seems to be another good illustration of the ongoing problem. (This user had a nice attack page deleted just yesterday.) Taroaldo ✉ 20:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am surprised, and disappointed, that UrbanNerd has gone on for so long in this fashion. (Interestingly, UrbanNerd's talkpage has just been sanitized since this ANI was posted.) The examples given are not just disruptive, they are abusive. It is time to put the burden on UrbanNerd to overcome this sad legacy. I recommend an WP:INDEF, and then let UrbanNerd plead a case for unblocking. – S. Rich (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• It's a wonder he's not been indef'd already for a slew of policy violations. I'd support S. Rich's proposal of an indef. Dusti 21:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Btw - let's add this to the mix. Dusti 21:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• The suggestion that the UrbanNerd account is a sock is interesting. I don't have knowledge of the previous user names, and I think 3 years is well beyond the stale range for a CU anyway, so that could only be judged on behavioural evidence. That, however, may not really be required. UrbanNerd is an alright content editor, but he is singularly incapable of interacting with people. Any edit he dislikes, or any of his edits that get challenged are inevitably responded to with a barrage of insults. The examples Miesianiacal notes above are really just a small sample set. Even if he evades one now, an indef block is inevitable unless UrbanNerd learns to interact with others. Resolute 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• For what it's worth I also believe that this user does more harm than good. I am struck by their constant assumption of bad faith/stupidity on the part of other users (ie. , among many others. Follow almost any discussion they're in, and you'll see much the same) and a general failure to discuss changes substantively (ie. ). The pattern is repeated and constant. I tried to engage the user as kindly as I could, but was called "queer" and my message was deleted (). I think it's best to spare other editors the headache and time lost arguing constantly with someone who simply won't engage in a proper substantive debate.Peregrine981 (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• UrbanNerd should of course be given a chance to respond, but there is compelling evidence here of a long-standing problem that requires intervention. Gamaliel (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block. Off-the-charts incivility including very childish name-calling, over a period long enough that they can't claim they just had a bad day... or week... or month. Misplaced Pages isn't the schoolyard. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef block given the block history and continuing disruptive beahviour. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. Multiple persistant and continuing behavioral problems make this user a net negative to the project. Inability to collaborate with others is more than amply demonstrated. This block is long overdue. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If I may add another example:

• 07:24, 1 March 2013: "reverting to 21:20, 16 February 2013‎ revision by User:Ccyyrree per WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO"
• 13:02, 1 March 2013: "Undid revision 541454110 by 117Avenue (talk) Revert back to longstanding as per WP:BRD"
• 02:12, 2 March 2013: "To what long standing version are you talking about"?
• 19:53, 2 March 2013: "your comments/actions are so far beyond comprehension i don't know where to even start. You can't be that simple, you have to be putting on an act."

117Avenue (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support I could add many more diffs to examples that are similar to the ones above but at this point I think its pretty clear that he needs an indef block as the many blocks he has received so far haven't helped him see the issue. -DJSasso (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Involved editor - Simply put this user is a determent to the project (200 examples here if requested).Moxy (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - I've thought there was something fishy here for a while but couldn't put my finger on it and didn't have time to cite him for his civility issues. I was however heavily involved in the other two users named (Po'Buster and PhilthyBear) and now that someone else mentions it yes, I completely agree there. Looking back through UrbanNerd's edits, even recently, there are massive violations of WP:OWN, good faith and just basic civility not to mention edit warring but using terminology to seeming get out of it by covering them as procedural or vandalism etc. Continually claiming BRD (which incidentally isn't a policy, it's an essay) isn't a way to get out of blatant edit warring. I'm surprised no one has jumped on this sooner. Really surprised. I'd like more admins eyes on this one before any action is taken. Canterbury Tail talk 17:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• 'Support. I was unaware of how bad it was until reading all these comments. This is why people leave Misplaced Pages. 117Avenue (talk) 02:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

37.117.127.158 is doing disruptive editing again.

The user with this IP address 37.117.127.158 is at it again. He has committed disruptive editing on film infoboxes on The Lone Ranger (2013 film), as you can see it here and here in Transformers (film series).

The user with this IP address has done this before and was discussed and archived here. This user was warned by Dennis Brown on his talk page and was quiet for a few days until he came back to do his disruptive film editing on the film infoboxes. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think a block may be required to stop the disruption, but want more input. I think my request for him to "stop" on his talk page could not have possibly been more obvious. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You forgot to notify him so I did it myself. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • One of the negatives of the new, "quieter" message notification system is it's harder to assume anyone's definitely seen their warnings. I guess a short block is the way to go, proceeding to a longer one if they come back and keep it up. Infobox formatting is pretty minor disruption though, and it's possible they genuinely think it looks better that way. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Do you think he'll ever stop his disruptive editing on film infoboxes after we blocked him for a short time. BattleshipMan (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked 72 hours. He can come back and continues to edit and refuses to engage about this problem. The only time he has used his talk page was to say that he didn't have time to talk. Now he has three days. I suggest talking with him there, politely and trying to help him understand why his actions are so disruptive. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I send him a message on his talk page here about the reason he's been blocked for 72 hours. BattleshipMan (talk) 07:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jc37 and edit-warring

Please can some uninvolved admins cast their eyes on the rather complex case listed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Jc37_reported_by_User:BrownHairedGirl_.28Result:_.29?

I thought that WP:AN3 was the best place to report this issue, tho it's not a perfect fit. If another forum would be more suitable, I would welcome suggestions. But whatever the venue, it would be good to have assistance in resolving this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There is an RFC at WikiProject Ireland, where I think it is more suitable to take this rather than pursuing the conduct issues.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope that the RFC will produce a consensus outcome. But RFCs remain open for a long time, and in the meantime Jc37 continues to edit-war, citing a CFD close which didn't even mention his desired change ( a change which got no support at CFD, or in the RFC). Is there any way of persuading him to just accept the the status quo ante pending the RFC outcome? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any harm in allowing the discussion to resolve the matter. Should consensus stay where it appears to be then Jc37's edit will be undone. As long as he accepts what the RfC decides there is no disruption to prevent.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, thank you TDA for the AGF.

BHG has left out a few things, such as I was the closer of the discussion, then I implemented the close and a few others have tried to revert it based upon their personal declared POV/biases. That's textbook disruption. But rather than be a rouge admin, and implement some variation of WP:RBI for disruption (as all too many admins all too often do), I chose instead to try to engage with them, and suggested that the subpage one editor wrote up as a proposed synthesis of several discussions be now proposed as a guideline. If this has actual consensus, then an rfc should be fairly simple SOP. Discussion, regardless of outcome, is a good thing.

But impatience apparently set in, and despite the fact the "there is no deadline", they've continued to revert the close.

Proof? read User talk:Fayenatic london#Ireland_categories, my talk page, User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Note, and of course the edit history of the category in question.

Closers simply should not be attacked like this. If they're doing this to me, someone who even they have professed to have liked at some point, how then are they treating other closers?

Oh and, as I asked for the discussion, I'll obviously respect it. Indeed, my intention has been to add a note to the cfd close after the rfc closes, noting the result of the rfc. (Though I would hope that the rfc was advertised at least at one or more of the WP:VPs.)

All this aside, I'm very disappointed in the editors with whom I have worked with, discussed with, etc., over the last several years. I have little doubt that they now have few kind things to say about me (How dare I implement a close contrary to their interpretation of my close!), but I guess c'est la vie. - jc37 09:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I am saddened by the disingenuousness of that reply. My post above links to the AN3 report, and asks others to cast an eye over it. That report says: "In a nutshell, this is a strange case of a closing admin edit-warring to uphold a decision which he made subsequent to a CFD closure, and which which was neither mentioned in the closure nor supported by any participant in the CFD discussion. In the subsequent discussions, no other editor has supported the closer's actions."

Yet Jc37 claims I omitted this fact.

Why? What's the point of misrepresenting me so blatantly? An admin should know better than to do that.

If Jc37 had intended the close to mean "remove Northern Ireland from Ireland", then that point should have been included stated in the CFD closing statement. If it had been in the closing statement, this could have been sorted long ago at DRV, because there is nothing in the discussion to support that perverse outcome. (The long-standing status quo has been that Category:Ireland contains subcats Category:Republic of Ireland and Category:Northern Ireland, and similarly Foo in Ireland has subcats Foo in NI and Foo in RoI).

Instead we are in limbo, with a closing statement which doesn't say that "Northern Ireland should not be a subcat of Ireland", so there is nothing to take to DRV. If Jc37 intends his closing statement to say that, then please amend the closing statement to make that clear, and we can take it to DRV.

Instead, we are in a weird limbo land. Nobody else reads Jc37's closing statement the way he reads it, and nobody supports the substance of his interpretation. Despite this, he has been edit-warring. Every closer has made some closes that don't go quite right, but when you are in a hole, stop digging.

If Jc37 believes that his closing statement justifies his subsequent actions, then the simple solution is to list it himself at DRV.

It's sad too that Jc37 claims he is being "attacked". An admin should be accountable for their actions, and the discussions at User talk:Jc37#Category:People_by_city_or_town_in_Northern_Ireland and User talk:Fayenatic_london#Ireland_categories show several editors politely asking Jc37 to reconsider. At no point in those discussions does Jc37 make any attempt to explain why he interpreted the CFD discussion as providing support for the actions he took. Why is he surprised that this has escalated after he dug in, when there were several routes he could have taken to resolve this quickly?

What we have instead is a CFD closer edit-warring to uphold a point not mentioned in his close, and insisting that his edit must stay pending an RFC. Nobody has objected to the opening of the RFC ... all we are asking is that the status quo ante be restored pending the outcome of the RFC.

The AN3 report has been closed as I think it's stale for now, but a block is in order if he reverts again. Another editor has restored the status quo ante, and I hope that Jc37 will leave it at that rather than risk a block.

If he will stop edit-warring, we are all done here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I think everyone involved in the RFC should just wait for it to be closed before worrying about restoring the categories to their preferred set-up. I don't understand what the hurry is and the way the RFC is going it should produce a result everyone can be happy about. I know—users are attempting to restore the status quo ante—but really, if all users were just patient for the RFC to close, there would be no problems at all. Good Ol’factory 00:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  The default duration of an RfC is 30 days. The RFC was opened on 28 June, which is 13 days after the CFD was closed.
  What is the procedural or substantive purpose of allowing Jc37's personal preference to stand for 43 days, when it is unsupported by any other editor, unmentioned in his closing statement, and not based on the CFD discussion? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  No. 1—Avoidance of the need for this discussion entirely. #2—No edit wars. #3—Respect for the process. #4—Some users could add to their patience and tolerance (no. 4 is just a side benefit). Good Ol’factory 22:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The point about the RfC is that it should never have been opened in the first place. In the long history of WP:WikiProject Ireland the question has never been raised whether "Foo in Northern Ireland" should be a sub-cat of "Foo in Ireland". It has always been accepted, by editors of every political persuasion, that it is. This RfC was opened by Fayenatic London only because Jc37 would not budge unless such a discussion was opened. You can see by the responses to it that WP:IE participants are bewildered by it. We all believe we have a good guideline which should be adhered to, and can't see why we should be obliged to re-affirm it. You might as well open an RfC on whether the world is round, and then say everyone involved in the RFC should just wait thirty days for it to be closed before worrying about fixing things. The RfC should be closed per WP:SNOW, and people should be allowed to get back to things that actually matter. Scolaire (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Scolaire is right that the status quo was not a matter of controversy until Jc37 took it upon himself to start his edit war. There are a lot POVs in relation to Ireland, but this is not something which has ever been controversial.
      Sadly, Jc37 has now chosen to claim that this is all a matter of several editors who have a a clear bias regarding uk and ireland topics. This is nonsense; nobody of any POV agrees with Jc37's view. And it's a rather nasty attempt to smear those who have been trying politely for weeks to dissuade him from his little edit-war. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Just everyone be patient. It's not that hard. It takes two or more to edit war. The self-righteous attitudes being expressed in this section are borderline sickening to me. Good Ol’factory 21:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Jc37 also has the option of being patient, instead of throwing around accusations of bullying. This is not about a content dispute, it is about user behaviour. Being a closer does not entitle someone to make the kind of personal attacks that would get an "ordinary" user blocked. "Self-righteous" and "borderline sickening" are not particularly good examples of civility, either. Scolaire (talk) 07:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
          • I said "everyone" needs to be patient—why did you assume I was excluding jc37? I also said nothing re: this being a content dispute. In fact, all my comments in this thread have focused on recommending particular user behaviour—patience. (I personally don't care one way or the other on the content issue.) I confirm that I have seen a lot of self-righteous comments on this thread, and it has risen to a level that can make one do a double take or be colloquially "sick"—that is actually a relatively a civil way of putting it. Had I been uncivil, I would have said I see some particular users acting like dicks. Good Ol’factory 10:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Eyes Needed

Looks like the kids on summer vacation are bored and causing problems. Already seen 3 brand new accounts pop-up on my watchlist and all vandalism-only accounts. Eyes are going to be needed at WP:AIV, the Oversight account (or wherever Oversight requests go) and here on ANI. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Review requested - Sandstein's block of Saedon

During an arbitration enforcement discussion centred around Scientology, User:Saedon made a comment that (in part) reads "scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject". This is quite clearly inappropriate, and so User:Sandstein blocked Saedon for 48 hours for "Personal attacks or harassment". This block was (quite reasonably) documented here, where it was made clear that is was done as an individual administrative action rather than as an arbitration enforcement action, and is thus something any admin can undo, and something that can be discussed at AN/I.

Both User:Dennis Brown and myself questioned the necessity of the block; I can't speak for Dennis, but my area of concern mostly centred around the lack of any kind of warning. While warnings are not required for blocks, I usually interpret this (perhaps wrongly) as basically saying that if someone is being obviously, actively disruptive, we don't have to jump through the hoops of going "level 1 warning. Level 2 warning. Level 3...." before blocking; Saedon, is a user with no block log and to my knowledge no record of this sort of behaviour, whose contributions after the offending edit showed disengagement from the area. Even if he wasn't showing disengagement, there are ways to solve for user misbehaviour that are below the level of a block.

To his credit, Sandstein quickly responded to the concerns I and others raised. His argument for the block being preventative, rather than punitive, was based around comments from Saedon's unblock request, which confused me greatly since it doesn't seem appropriate to justify the necessity of an action based on things that happened after it. His next comment here was "the block will reduce the likelihood of similar misconduct by you and possibly others in the future". I'm interpreting this (perhaps uncharitably) as suggesting that Sandstein sees one of the legitimate uses of blocking as, essentially, a "time out"; that a block forces a user to adjust his behaviour, and furthermore that it sits as a warning to other users. Unlike the Royal Navy, we do not shoot one admiral to serve as an example to others; blocks should be in response to an active threat, not as a way of chilling others. Chilling negative behaviour vicariously is a side-effect of blocks, not a justification for them. I'm coming to AN/I to request wider comment as to the validity of the block, and as to the spin Sandstein seems to be putting on the blocking policy. Ironholds (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support unblocking. Oliver and I agree on every point above. Saedon has a long record of nothing but productive work and a warning should have been tried first. Nothing personal against the blocking admin, but blocking should have been the last resort, not the first. Saedon's wording was a mistake, but a mistake that a warning could have cleared up. There is no pattern of behavior to "deter" here, making this block unnecessary. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Good decision to block, but the duration was too long for a first warning. Two hours would have been better. Suggestion that other editors are not welcome is a serious matter, but the point is made with an initial short block. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - The comment was fairly uncivil, but Saedon should have first been warned and given the opportunity to retract the unpleasantness. I think Sandstein operated in good faith, but erred in using the hammer so freely. - MrX 22:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Note: Saedon wishes to communicate " I understand that my status as a regular does not allow to act with impunity, only that it should afford me a discussion... I did not word that well in my unblock request and do not want people to think that I think I am "above the law," or so to speak." Ironholds (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock Bad block, worse response. In a situation where a warning to remove the material would have easily sufficed, we have an admin blocking a long-time editor with a clean block log for two days, then compounding the insult by using the obviously frustrated editor's unblock request as grounds for the initial block. This is the kind of action that loses long-time editors. Mistakes are made, and both parties seem to have made one. Deciding to dig in your heels and justify a bad block after the fact is just a slap in the face, and that's the kind of insult that causes editors to become understandably frustrated with the entire process. This block isn't "preventing" anything, and an admin needs to lift it immediately. Dayewalker (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock - Warning would have been the best action, the block is not necessary - I'd consider this "lesson learned" and leave it at that. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Bad block - Compared to others discussed somewhere else (ahem) Saedon has no history of incivility and to jump straight to a block without talking to him and gauging his reaction is ridiculous. There's a double standard here. Why? --NeilN 23:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Unblock. It is true that scientology is a ridiculous cult, but obviously one cannot say that "we do not need members of said cult to build our articles on the subject", certainly not in the context of an AE discussion because you then blame whatever the discussed problem was there on merely scientology membership. However, one shouldn't block people without warning when they make such mistakes the first time here. If this were repeat behaviour, it would be different. Count Iblis (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• I have unblocked Saedon based on the consensus of the discussion above. --Jayron32 23:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Jayron32 has just unblocked me and I wanted to take this opportunity to say a couple things. Firstly, thank you very much to Ironholds and Dennis for helping me throughout this ordeal. I also want to thank all those above who supported me being unblocked and Jayron32 for pulling the proverbial trigger. Secondly, I would like to acknowledge that I understand my comment was very poorly worded and those who know me know that I generally have a more professional decorum. I also agree that Sandstein acted in good faith and harbor no ill will towards him, though I would ask him to consider far less drastic measures in the future when dealing with editors who have broken a rule but who do not have a history of doing so. Like Ironholds, I am concerned that Sandstein's interpretation of the blocking policy is not in line with that of the community but I do not think it needs to be discussed further - I am sure there will be self reflection on both our ends (and this is not to diminish his hard work at WP:AE, where he is actively dealing with some of the most difficult cases on WP).

Lastly, I plan on abandoning my Saedon account and I am going to resume editing on my original account, User:Noformation. The reason being that my original account has a fair number of talk page watchers who may have been able to expedite this process today (not that I plan on getting blocked in the future :D) while User:Saedon does not have enough to even register a number. Anyway, I'm glad to be back so let's get on with the editing! Sædon 23:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to Jayron32 for unblocking. Tony (talk) 09:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good call, Jayron, and the others who helped sort this out. Neotarf (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• I thought "Saedon" was a pretty cool username. Mindy Dirt (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, it's my real first name so I still get to use it a lot :). Nformation 22:51, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Wouldn't it have made more sense (not to mention less drama-inducing), to have simply asked Saedon something like this, "Hey, I think you crossed the line with this comment. Can you please refactor or remove the comment?" A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It might have ... however, an attack on someone's faith is one of the big no-no's in most environments. Indef until they agreed to retract/remove would be appropriate as it would be in any work environment (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I dare say that anyone who calls scientology a cult is unlikely accepting the notion that scientology is a faith, and thus does not agree that he is attacking anyone's faith. --Conti|✉ 20:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and that's part of the problem. Certainly Scientology appears to be very problematic in various respects as an organization, and its tenets of faith very peculiar even by the standards of religious beliefs. And editors are free to say so. But as a matter of simple decency, nobody on Misplaced Pages (or in any other group) should tolerate that others are attacked as a person merely for adhering to a faith or other moral conviction. I've discussed this at some length on Saedon's talk page.  Sandstein  21:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of whether a block or a warning combined with a request to strike would have been the best approach to take, what Saedon said was an absolute textbook example of the kind of personal attack this project's policy says will not be tolerated. You can't have a policy like that and then not enforce it. It just looks like hypocrisy. In this case, at least Sandstein did something to uphold policy. Nobody else did. Given the choice, I prefer Sandstein's approach. Andreas JN466 01:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll take note that the community (as represented by the veteran editors commenting here) prefers warning veteran editors before blocking them, even for such acts as aggressively disparaging the faith of others. That's understandable in terms of our social dynamics, but it reinforces my impression that too many are perhaps unconsciously adopting a mindset that treats Misplaced Pages as a social network rather than a serious, rule-based collaborative work. It particularly reinforces the impression that administrators and other veteran editors can get away with much more misconduct just because they have plenty of friends. The opposite should be the case. As Bwilkins says, conduct that would result in an immediate suspension or similar in a real-life work environment should result in the same here – because Misplaced Pages too is a work environment, not a playground. (Though I should add that I much appreciate Saedon's, Ironholds's and Dennis Brown's measured and polite approach to our disagreement.)  Sandstein  20:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Awwwww, somebody's gwumpy. Here Sandy, this is something that is sure to cheer you up.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, the workplace analogy is a bunch of nonsense and always has been. What workplace allows people with aims that run counter to the company's goals to show up and undo/screw with the good work people who actually want to work for the company have done, and it takes months to get such people thrown out? None that I'm aware of, and if there is such a place, I'd wager there's a heck of a lot of swearing and name-calling there, too. That is exactly what Misplaced Pages does in allowing POV pushers and trolls to have their way with this site. It is unrealistic to expect this place to act like a workplace. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not a reason not to do to anything about it. We are Misplaced Pages, and it is we who are responsible for allowing disruption by tolerating it.  Sandstein  07:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

What should be done about it is to treat the disease, POV pushing and abuse of our content policies, rather than the symptom of incivility. Blocking people for incivility here makes about as much sense as firing the people who swear at the folks undermining the company goals rather than the people actually doing so. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Add me to the list. Bad block. Carrite (talk) 22:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I can certainly understand your perspective here and in fact I agree with it - I don't think veteran editors should get away with more misconduct so let me elaborate my position. Suppose you have three editors, A, B, and C. Editor A signed up two weeks ago, made 3 innocuous minor edits and then on his 4th edit he went to Talk:Israel and accused all the editors of being Zionists trying to spread Jewish propaganda and he used racial slurs. Editor B has had an account for a year and has made 500 edits, while normally collegial she crosses the line one night and makes a comment that clearly falls within WP:NPA. Editor C started off a lot like editor B but as time passes he makes more and more disruptive, rude comments; administrators have tried talking, but talking has lead to no changes.

Now, one might argue that an offense is an offense and none of the cases above should be judged except on the merits of the case. Here's why I think that's wrong: editor A came to Misplaced Pages like a bull in a China shop: here to push an agenda and demonstrates almost immediately that he has trouble working in a collaborative environment. Blocking him immediately (though I don't even agree that all new editors should be blocked for policy violations, I used a rather harsh example here only to demonstrate my point)has both the effect of preventing further outbursts through technical means, and of sending a clear message that this is not how Misplaced Pages works - both of which I think are in line with blocking policy. Editor B, on the other hand, has demonstrated that they can and normally do work in a collaborative environment, but for what ever reason crossed the line on a particular occasion. A block here does not, in my estimation, accomplish the goal of preventing damage directly. It does, I think, accomplish the second goal - sending a message of what is and isn't acceptable - but blocking as the first means to dispute resolution can often have the effect of producing more heat than light. The reason that editor B should be given the benefit of the doubt is because editor B has already demonstrated she can be collaborative and so I think we should work under the assumption that a conversation can probably solve the problem. And if a conversation can solve the problem then a block is unnecessary.

The main difference between editors B and C is that editor C was given the benefit of the doubt but refused to either acknowledge or change his behavior, and when that happens there is a clear and present need to block both to prevent damage and to demonstrate what we can and cannot tolerate.

So it is not that veteran editors should be able to get away with more misconduct, it is that editors with a track record of collegiality should be assumed to be able to respond collegiality to other editor's concerns. When that is demonstrated not to be the case - whether the editor has 10 edits or 10,000 - then I think a block is wholly appropriate.

As an aside, I don't agree with the idea that faith is a specially protected position. The fact of the matter is I shouldn't have attacked an editor period, whether over his/her faith or anything else. Nformation 22:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The approach you describe certainly has merit, and I would agree with it, were it not for the following: Conduct enforcement on Misplaced Pages (especially towards established editors) is spotty and haphazard at best, simply because few administrators are willing to engage in it in their spare time, just to get nothing out of it except the certainty of loud criticism by their colleagues (as this case demonstrates). That being so, whenever it is undertaken, it should be done effectively and visibly, in order to produce a deterrent effect on others, even though that may not be perceived as fair by the user who is (somewhat randomly) affected.

Secondly, your approach focuses on what is best for the offender. That's understandable but, I think, mistaken. An effective anti-harrassment policy should focus on the victims of harrassment. A person who is being harrassed on Misplaced Pages, just to be told that "oh, he's a good guy really, just a little cranky today perhaps, I'll go have a word with him", will not feel that they are being taken seriously. They'll only see a clique of insiders protecting each other. And they'll leave. And retaining these many people (often women, I assume, based on our gender balance) who may be driven away by a culture of unmindful impoliteness is far more important to me than retaining the relatively few, but noisy, veteran editors who are not willing to conform to the necessary rules of a collaborative workspace. (Just to be clear, I don't mean you; as I said I much appreciate your approach to this situation.) For these reasons, in your example, I would block A, B and C, but only A and C indefinitely.

Incidentally, this discussion is similar to one ongoing in the (Anglosphere) SF/F fandom concerning harrassment policies at fan conventions, where there seems to be a similar cultural disconnect between male scene veterans and others, notably women, who demand effective protection from harrassment. See, for instance, this blog post by author John Scalzi – I couldn't help but think of Misplaced Pages.  Sandstein  07:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am a strong supporter of significant blocks for chronic incivility. However, in this case, we appear to have only a moment of crankiness. Certainly nothing to warrant a block. Taroaldo ✉ 05:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• The question of whether members of a particular group should be allowed to edit articles on that topic has come up before. For example the TM and Scientology groups come up for discussion in an arbcom discussion here. Neotarf (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Very Bad block. And it would have been just as bad a block for a new, inexperienced user who cannot be expected to know all policies on Misplaced Pages, and even less, where the excact line is drawn for different topics. I too want civility on Misplaced Pages, but we should not expect people to be perfect all the time. Friendly advices and then warning can go a long way. Most users want to follow the rules,when it is laid out for them. Blocks should only be used when a user indicates by his words and deeds that they more generally have no ability or wish to follow the policies; it should not be used because users as humans beings naturally make this or that mistake or misjudgement. We all do, also Sandstein. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 07:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Threat of violence on my talk page

Due to a recent revert on Mongolian language that I made,

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761021&oldid=562108558
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562761598&oldid=562761021
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mongolian_language&diff=562765395&oldid=562761598

Orgio89 (talk) has made the following edit on my talk page:

Chi yahlaaraa Mongol helnii huudsiig hyatad hanzaar bohirlood dairaad baigaa yum be! Chi germand torj osson hari evrop setgelgeetei novsh baina. Mongold baigaa irged Mongol helniihee huudsiig oorsdoo zasaad medeed hiij baina Mongoliig hel soyld bitgii gai bolood baigaarai. Bolohgui bol evropt baigaa Mongolchuudaar chamtai tootsoo bodoj chadna shuu!!!

The text reads in translation:

'How can you / dare you pollute the page on the Mongolian language with Chinese characters? You are a German-born, foreign-thinking piece of garbage. The Mongolian citizens take responsibility for the page on their Mongolian language themselves. Stop being an obstacle / pain in the ass to Mongolian culture. If you don’t, I can contact Mongolians in Europe and make you pay!'

The crucial last sentence can be glossed as follows:

“Bolo-h=gui bol evrop-t bai-gaa Mongol-chuud-aar cham-tai tootsoo bodo-j chad-na shuu!“ (become-future.participle=negation if Europe-dative be-imperfective.participle Mongolian-plural-instrumental.case(“by”) you-comitative(“with) bill think/calculate-converb can-future/generic illocutionary_particle(“I tell you”))

While I don't think that this threat is concrete or that this user could identify me, this is the first threat of violence that I have experienced on Misplaced Pages. As I am fairly sure that Orgio89 wouldn't be impressed by any form of polite answer (in contrast maybe to Ancientsteppe where a similar angry argument without threat started on my talk page, but became somewhat more peaceful in the course), maybe some kind of administrative intervention / block would be appropriate.

As a sidenote: the issue at hand (about which both Orgio89 and Ancientsteppe are unhappy) is

• the classification of Mongolian (=Mongolian, Buriat, Oirat instead of those three being separate languages, a very reasonable position held by most Mongolian scholars, while English Misplaced Pages currently follows the equally acceptable stance held in most of Europe and Russia), all other Mongolic languages being spoken by racially different people who might be short of being Mongolians (a position unrelated to linguistics)
• all things Chinese must be unrelated to Mongolian. The current version of the loanword section is a bit too Chinese-heavy, but editing here must be done in a reasonable way so as to give prominence to different semantic fields. The inclusion of Chinese characters here has its pro-s and con-s. The Secret history, in contrast, happens to be transmitted only in Chinese transcription, so it must be included as it is.

(As I don't really intend to discuss the issue, but rather Orgio89's aggressive behavior, I have not notified Ancientsteppe about this discussion.)

Best, G Purevdorj (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

"""1.""" Sorry on my some little too far type of rant on your talk page!

"""2.""" Purevdorj G. does not have official education about the subject on Mongolian language that he is editing on Misplaced Pages, which he states on his front page that he has non Mongolian motherlanguage and ways he edited the disputed wiki page. Misplaced Pages information supposed to be created as close as possibly scientifically accurate but this english version of the page is the most vandalised page version compare to other language versions. Here is original Mongol version and German version and Russian version of the page which in both Germany and Russia there are far more Mongolian language and culture researchers or their expatriates who lived in Mongolia concentrated than other countries. Which these 3 versions are interestingly in very close format than English version plus in English version there are third language scripts this time Chinese writings involved. Why in most probable accurate 3 versions there no any 3d language writings involved but in English?! """3.""" From East German era there are thousands of east German expats and educators lived and worked in Mongolia from 1950-1989 period so there are at least hundreds of Germans who has certain competitive level of Mongolian language unofficial education with obvious reasons. In this German version page I checked Purevdorjs edit contribution in history section and he has contributed only once in Nov 2008 for its 8 years of history others were all native Germans edited the page. If Purevdorj has German motherlanguage and some "confident level of Mongolian language level" why cant he integrate the German format with English version ways he editing like "supposed official Mongol linguist"?! """4.""" Here are the daily Mongolian news sites that could support my edit effort of Mongolian language page: mongolnews.mn news.mn ; and this is Mongolian government public outreach page: zasag.mn . From these websites facts you cannot find any 3d language writings like Korean or Hindi or Chinese except some English brand name terms on news site. """5.""" Based on these unruly incidents of Purevdorj any admin please please ban him or block his access to Mongolian language so contributors with realistic knowledge can edit the desputed page. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus my edit efforts of Purevdorjs vandalized Mongolian language page actually started in March 2013, it is months of ongoing effort against vandalisms made by limited knowledge contributors not a recent incident as Purevdorj originally trying to claim. Orgio89 (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

If this admins board might include anyone who has certain good linguistic knowledge base please carefully assess this vandalism situation and please stop this very sophisticated vandalism going on this Mongolian language page relative to these other formats: original Mongol version and German version and Russian version. Thank you. Orgio89 (talk) 03:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Aside from the above example, you can also track the edits made by the user in question to Aeroflot, where their addition of a video has been removed by at least three other editors (including me) after being restored by Orgio89. To honor the truth, and unlike with G Purevdorj's example, my contact with Orgio89 was not that tough. I do not speak Mongolian, but if the translation above is true, both examples show that we're having an editor that behaves not precisely in the expected collaborative way.--Jetstreamer  01:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Jetstreamer your interest of taking down any one who is not obedient to your interest sounds pretty amazing! That video was clearly in the subject details of the page and was very informative addition to the page which in point of origin Russian version of the page it well passed their local mods regular monitoring. So why do you need to bring "this huge issue" who is not obedient to your personal interest to this notice board?! Orgio89 (talk) 02:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Whether or not someone has "official education" on a subject isn't relevant. Any editor can edit Misplaced Pages. If the edits are not helpful, they will likely be reverted. Disagreements should be discussed on an article's talk page (which appears to have been occurring in this case). The issue here at ANI is a personal attack/possible threat, nothing else. It is clear that such actions are unacceptable and are never tolerated in Misplaced Pages. Who made what edit in which linguistic version of the Mongolian language article is just a smokescreen which obscures the issue at hand. Taroaldo ✉ 04:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Orgio, regardless of the content matter, you cannot ever threaten other editors. You need to immediately withdraw that threat (cross it out if you know how, or simply state that you withdraw it here and on G Purevdorj's page, or you will be blocked from editing. You must discuss matters civilly, or you cannot edit here. Let's deal with that matter first, before we figure out how to recommend dispute resolution on the topic. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, Orgio89 should be blocked, but I will give him/her a chance to apologize and withdraw the comments in the manner you specified before I block. Gamaliel (talk) 04:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

But my months of editing effort against vandalism on Mongolian language done by other contributor should not be ingored here, I provided clear facts that how the page getting vandalized relative other pages plus local information facts. I explained and asked sorry in the first place in my post how else do I need to ask sorry on his obvious vandalism effort?? Orgio89 (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, I accept that you're now apologizing, which is good, but at the same time, you're actually making things worse. His edits are very very much not vandalism. Misplaced Pages has an extremely strict definition of vandalism, which you can read at WP:VANDAL; the short version is that it only means someone either spamming or trying to make Misplaced Pages worse, like saying, "<Person> is a stupid poo-poo head! LOLOLOL". Just because you disagree with his edits does not make them vandalism. When you disagree with someone, what you need to do is go to the article talk page and discuss the matter. If you can't agree between the two of you, then you need to get help from others via dispute resolution. Hwoever, the matter that Jetstreamer raises is also a problem--you can't just try to force your opinions onto Misplaced Pages. You may be right, but you've got to follow a reasonable, civil process to discuss the matter and get to the "better" version. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Qwyrxian thank you for your reply and explanations! Just in case I request that any 2-3 of you please carefully consider this Mongolian language page vandalism matter and solve the vandalisms on information accuracy relative to other valid versions please? : original Mongol version and German version and Russian version , Spanish version. Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus in my initial post there are clear facts supporting that how the inaccuracy vandalism is going on on that page. Admins should not ingore vandalisms! just compare with my provided 4 other language versions please. Orgio89 (talk) 04:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The editor has not apologised nor withdrawn the remarks on the user's talk page, and does not appear to understand how inappropriate his/her behaviour was. I would suggest proceeding with the block. Taroaldo ✉ 04:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I have withdrawn my post and my request on admins assessment on vandalism alert or intended innaccuracies/vandalism alert on disputed page must not be ignored by admins! Orgio89 (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This Indiana University Mongolian study program is likely the biggest in English accuracy source in the west for any admins assessment process. Orgio89 (talk) 05:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Orgio89, this is now the absolute final warning to you: if you misuse the term "vandalism" once more, you will be blocked, for as long as it takes for you to understand what's wrong about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, scrap that. Having looked a bit more into this editor's conduct and the way he's been involved in tendentious edit-warring ever since he arrived, I come to the conclusion that the time for more warnings is over. This discussion here is proof that Orgio89 is not yet prepared to learn what it means to edit in a collaborative environment, where editors are expected to respect each other's contributions and viewpoints. I'm indef-blocking, until such time as he gives a credible commitment that he is prepared change perspective. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

FPoS, I know that this is usually your style, but was it really necessary to jump to an immediate indef? Isn't it possible that the user first needed a clear statement that said "No, really, we mean it", with a time limited block, that would get him/her to come to her senses? While you and I understand "indefinitely" means "Until you show us you've changed/understood", most people read it as "Forever". I wonder if it wasn't possible that we could first give a block of a few days, and then rapidly escalate as needed. Again, I do appreciate that you have chosen to deal with the worst of the POV pushers, and I've certainly benefited at times from your willingness to make them go away, but maybe, here at least, starting off somewhere below indefinite might have given an overall better result. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This seems reasonable in this case. This user made a serious threat of violence and doesn't seem to understand why that's a problem at all, instead complaining that we aren't focusing on his edit conflict with this user, calling this conflict 'vandalism'. Even if this block is overturned, I think it is necessary to impress upon this user the seriousness of this issue. Gamaliel (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good block by FP, in response to the obvious threat of violence. Orgio89 has made further comments above, but it's not an adequate apology, even if it's an apology of any kind. He still thinks he was right and he's calling others' edits vandalism. EdJohnston (talk) 15:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good block. As a side note, if most people read it as "Forever", then they should stop doing so. If we create a climate where it usually means "Forever", we should stop doing so. If we don't, "indefinite" will come to mean "Forever". Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

In any case, I think I told him quite clearly how it's meant and what he has to do to get it lifted. Ball's in his court now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Galician people

Galician people (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi. There's an IP editor behaving disruptively in this page, deleting one time and again referenced info relative to Galician language in the lead section. I've already contacted him/her in his/her talk page, with no response.--Froaringus (talk) 12:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

In fact, he/she is using several IP addresses!!--Froaringus (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

This is why WP:RFPP was invented. I have, however, semi'd it for a period of time. The IP should start to understand that WP:OR cannot trump WP:RS (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --Froaringus (talk) 14:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and intervention

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have volunteered to mediate DRN regarding Morgellons. It's clearly said that any editor can mediate a DRN.

However, instead of discussing the issue, several editors are discussing myself at the venue of the DRN itself, disrupting the process and using a wrong venue for such a discussion.

It's in my opinion that the DRN process is independent and informal. I wouldn't like to be pressured by any editors or admins while I'm trying to resolve it. Thank you. InLoveNoi (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that prior to appearing at DRN, this user had made no edits whatsoever, and has given no indication of understanding how dispute resolution works. Note also that this user is him/herself offering evidence in the DRN discussion, rather than participating as an outside mediator. There have been multiple attempts to persuade InLoveNoi that such behaviour is inappropriate and disruptive - to no avail. Prior to InLoveNoi posting here, I was prepared to assume good faith - but frankly, I am beginning to suspect that disruption was intended from the start. I would suggest that InLoveNoi be given one final warning that any further participation at DRN will be strictly as a participant in the discussion, and that any further disruption of the process will result in a block and/or a topic ban. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Registering and then jumping right over to DRN is at best a little odd. I find it hard to believe someone could be familiar enough with policies and generally with how stuff works around here to do the job at DRN usefully. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Even if someone were familiar with the process, it would clearly be inappropriate for anyone to simultaneously 'mediate' the discussion and participate by offering up evidence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Especially as the evidence for the clear position taken by the DRN volunteer from the outset is based on entirely inappropriate sources - something any Misplaced Pages editor who has done even a little content development would know, and is critical knowledge to ensure a DRN discussion is based in content policy. Zad68 15:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support (as involved editor) final warning requesting InLoveNoi to step down from volunteer position, followed by block or topic ban if they won't. Please read through InLoveNoi's participation in the DRN discussion here and also the meta-discussion here. Zad68 15:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm the most frequent volunteer at DRN and have been asked by Zad68 to become the lead DRN volunteer in the case in question. I'd like to give InLoveNoi a chance to withdraw voluntarily from the DRN mediation in this case voluntarily. If that does not happen, then a topic ban limited to just that role might be appropriate. DRN guidelines make it clear that s/he is free to participate as a general community member in any discussion which eventually starts there, but in light of his clearly partisan position in this matter the best thing would be for him to be listed as a involved editor in the dispute. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - a final warning to InLoveNoi to cease acting as a DRN volunteer on a topic where he is obviously involved. EdJohnston (talk) 15:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support (as involved editor). Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I find it odd that Zad68 is picking up a volunteer to resolve the DRN. Does he hold any special privileges to do so?

I hold no partisan view, in fact I have stated that my personal view correlates with the mainstream's. And I have stated, that I'll mediate objectively. InLoveNoi (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

TransporterMan was actually mistaken in saying I asked him to become the lead DRN volunteer - In the talk page discussion I only asked for an experienced DRN volunteer to review the situation, and I didn't even name TransporterMan, although I highly value his DRN experience and it'd be great if he took the discussion.

In you very first edit ever to Misplaced Pages, taking the DRN discussion as volunteer, you give your own opinions about the cause of the condition, and the support you provide for your views you state comes from a TV show you saw on a Russian channel, as you describe it. Any editor experienced with the DRN process and Misplaced Pages content development would understand how your statement is inappropriate. Zad68 16:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I was more mistaken than just that: It was AndyTheGrump who "asked" me in the hatnote at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Morgellons discussion, but that was actually only an acknowledgement that I had already weighed in to try to control this problem by shutting off the premature discussion, which InLoveNoi ignored. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Also, anyone else getting a bit of a Technoquat vibe? Sailsbystars (talk) 15:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The thought had crossed my mind... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Technoquat! LOL.... oh man, I feel like I'm on Candid Camera! Zad68 16:05, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support. (as involved editor). Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 16:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support (as involved editor). Even if InLoveNoi were an established editor, and he/she did not propose a result before all the comments were in, it's clear from the (now collapsed) discussion at DRN that he/she will not be accepted by the involved parties. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Final warning - Let me offer a final warning and an explanation. InLoveNoi, disengage from DRN now. Failure to do so will be construed as intentionally disrupting the discussion and will be sanctioned accordingly (ie: I will block you). At DRN or any other discussion that requires mediation, if the parties do not have faith in the mediator, then that mediator should disengage and not push themselves on the involved parties. This is based on WP:COMMONSENSE as mediation is the act of helping different parties reach a compromise, facilitated by the mediation of a well trusted and neutral party. No new editor should be mediating at DRN, no matter how clever they are, as they lack the sufficient history to instill faith and trust from the parties. Once a mediator refuses to disengage after the parties have clearly indicated they do not trust his judgement, he has proven them right. Anyone with good judgement would have instantly disengaged once it became clear that multiple parties objected. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) So, we have an ANI (e.g., a dispute) about the DRN which involves a dispute on an article talkpage about a subject which is subject to dispute itself. What's next? An ANI about a DRN which involves a dispute on Talk:Controversy (or Talk:Dispute resolution)? In any event, InLoveNoi – with this very first appearance on WP – has not established her/himself as an experienced editor. – S. Rich (talk) 16:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparent strange long-term grudge by IP

This IP vandalised my user page on 19 May (only just noticed). This seems to be the result of some sort of strange long-term grudge stemming from discussions on Talk:Great Heck rail crash in March 2011. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

And you want us to block for something that happened then stopped 1.5 months ago? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

No, but I thought some sort of warning would be in order, and I didn't want to rattle their cage by doing it myself. Spiteful behaviour is spiteful behaviour, no matter how intermittent it may be, especially when it seems to be suspiciously similar to the insidious edits around the same time by IP 86.141.79.152 - an IP which, like 157.203.254.2, has edited VolkerRail and Peter Levy (presenter). Massive coincidence, or the same person? Nick Cooper (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The IP 157.203.254.2 is a confirmed proxy server, so it is unlikely that a warning issued now would reach the intended recipient. It geolocates to London. The other IP geolocates to Driffield, in East Yorkshire. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's another connection - immediately before vandalising my Talk page, 157.203.254.2 edited Eastrington railway station, which is in East Yorkshire. A pattern of rail-related edits is common to both IPs. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Mostridge removing speedy deletion tags

Mostridge (talk · contribs) created the article Big Band Blast, which was tagged for speedy deletion. He has removed the speedy deletion tag from this article 5 times, despite multiple warnings. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 16:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

49.176.163.95 (talk) has now removed the speedy deletion template as well. As the article has no other contributors and that IP has no other edits, I believe it is likely that 49.176.163.95 is Mostridge's logged-out IP. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Article deleted. User very briefly blocked (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Rangeblock for Zombie433

Community banned Zombie433 (talk · contribs) is back, I've just found and tagged and reverted 25+ IPs used in the past 3 weeks; up to his usual tricks of mis-using sources on BLPs and related articles to vandalise. If you don't remember him then search the ANI archives or look at the SPI or Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Zombie433. He is editing from 79.214.xxx.xxx - any chance a more technical minded admin can place a rangeblock please? I've semi-protected the article I caught him at to prevent disruption in the short-term. GiantSnowman 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked 79.214.192.0/19 (8192 IPs); 79.214.128.0/18 (16384 IPs) for two weeks. There might be some leakage so please collect IPs if you notice any further edits and we can try to lay down the tightest possible range blocks. The more IPs you can collect the easier it is to do blocks that don't involve good faith users. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. GiantSnowman 09:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Consistent vandalism at Coup d'état

I thought I should point out that the page Coup d'état is being consistently vandalized by editors with POV issues regarding the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état. Notably, Adly Mansour is consistently being removed from the section 'Current leaders who assumed power via coups d'état'. It is multiple editors, all of whom I have contacted about the issue on their respective talk pages, which is why I haven't reported any one of them for 3RR or ongoing vandalism, and I'm not sure if the page is notable enough for semi-protection, which is why I didn't post a request for such. I've posted the issue here because I am unsure what action if any should be taken. Apologies if I should have posted this elsewhere. Samuel Peoples (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there Samuel Peoples. It's removal of sourced content, if they wish it removed they need to initiate a talk page discussion or come up with sources that call it something other than a coup. I have protected the page for 3 days. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Samuel Peoples (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Samuel, a page doesn't have to be "notable enough" to warrant semi-protection. It depends most on the activity in the article and partly whether the problematic edits relate to WP:BLPs. See WP:PP.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Rauzaruku

User:Rauzaruku has claimed that the Portuguese word "estado-unidense" (something like "United Statian", that is, American) has an offensive meaning in Brazil, even worser than the the one that the English word "nigger" has in the USA. Two different editors, as well as I, opposed his view. When we requested sources, he used insults to answer. He couldn't stop insulting everyone, which made him be blocked by User:Acroterion for 48h.

Since he never brought any reliable sources to back his claims I decided to revert his edit (he had removed the word "estado-unidense" from Portuguese language). His first action once the block expired was to revert me. Since I'm unwilling to enter in an edit war and even elss to discuss with him, I came here to ask for help.

Rauzaruku claimed (and this is not a joke) that: "Just going to tell you something very serious: who speaks 'Estadunidense', as a rule, want to see the U.S. atomized, covered in blood, all Americans dead, like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. I'm really defending your country and your people." It's impossible to talk with someone who accuses other editors of being terrorists.

A few other comments he made:

• "What you should realize is that these two users are Brazilian leftists, trying to defend the spread this word via Misplaced Pages. Wiki-PT have a large influx of communists, socialists and left-lists using your structure for spreading ideological ideas ..."
• "Who supports this kind of thing on Misplaced Pages are just political agitators who want to use Misplaced Pages for their personal purposes."
• "So, who uses it today, is a political agitator or a truly ignorant. Your argument is a lie, and clearly you are here by political interests."
• "A famous type of trolling."
• "Brazilian coward way to resolve disputes: 'source, source...' (that's common in internet, little brazilian kids defeated in discussions do this...)." (his opinion about the other editors who requested sources)
• "It's "coward way" because when brazilians discuss, they don't try to accept nothing and don't try himselves to find sources." (the same as above)
• "As this word... is used as a means of spreading hatred."
• "Anyone who says otherwise, is lying." (anyone who doesn't agree with him)

His words carry a harsh meaning and I believe others would know what to do with him better than I do. --Lecen (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

There's been no personal attacks since he returned from his block, so I don't see a need for further action at this point. I would also note that, while some of his comments were inexcusable, he's only one side in a dispute with gross personal attacks on both sides. It's probably worth watching how this develops, but I'd rather hold off any action until there's an obvious need to intervene. ItsZippy 22:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to point that there were no "gross personal attacks on both sides". There were two editors fighting over the matter. Then, the administrator, myself and another editor appeared asking bot to stop and then we shared our views. Your message seems to imply that I and the other editor also used "gross personal attacks". --Lecen (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no need for action at the moment. Rauzaruku and User:Cristiano Tomás indulged in a nasty edit-war with lots of personal commentary, but stopped after warnings from me: Christiano apologized to Rauzaruku . Rauzaruku continued to attack other users after a second, very specific warning from me, so I blocked him for 48 hours. He's made two article edits reflecting his point of view but hasn't indulged in personal reflections, so for now it's just a content dispute requiring no administrative action. Acroterion (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please delete (accidentally?) created user pages

Don't know what Balti sahib is up to but can an admin delete all the user pages he's created . I would blank them but some users like having a redlink to their user page so... --NeilN 20:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I think they're just tagging any user who edited the Gilgit–Baltistan page. If anything, it seems like they are trying to help, although I really don't know what their rationale behind it is. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note that the Balti sahib UP was created by Special:Contributions/محمد_افضل. – S. Rich (talk) 20:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm inclined to leave it - those editors can remove the tag from their userpages or request deletion if they want to. I've left a note on the user's talk page suggesting that they avoid doing this kind of thing again. ItsZippy 22:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

DIREKTOR and Anon7mous

In 2007, User:Anon7mous was edited by User:DIREKTOR - and to point visitors from the former to the latter. In 2010, at User talk:Anon7mous the two accounts had this discussion. The other day, another three years later, Anon7mous goes on to resurrect DIREKTOR's proposal on WT:YU#Scope_.233. If this is an actual case of sock/meatpuppetry, it's got to be the silliest ever. I doubt DIREKTOR would do such a thing, I think it's actually more likely that that they made this series of silly mistakes involving the account of a real-life friend of his. The end result is confusing at best. Would it be inappropriate if I insisted that Anon7mous makes a clean start under a new name? --Joy (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this should make everything clear ]. I must also say that Joy and I are currently opposed in a debate on the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia and this looks like some kind of "revenge". I am saddened to be so treated having only been editing for a few days. DIRECTOR and I do know each other and he is the user who invited me to join this amazing project. I did edit somewhat as an IP and I am eager now to contribute as much as I can about economics for example with my current account, because I use this nickname everwhere. Thank you Anon7mous (talk) 21:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Short answer: yes it would be inappropriate for you to insist Anon7mous make a clean start under a new name. It seems clear they have stated that they know each other outside of the project, and as long as they're not making inappropriate edits on each others behalf there's not a thing wrong here. Being friends with someone off-wiki isn't against the rules, and frankly asking Anon7mous to change his user name would only result in the same person making the same edits using a different user name. I'm not sure what the point of insisting on a name change/new account is, other than to make things more difficult for someone who has opposing views from yours. AniMate 02:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you missed one factoid: DIREKTOR edited Anon7mous's page to point to his own. As if it's his alter ego. This stood there for three years. Then they had this discussion explaining that they are friends. Yet the user page pointer remained in place until three days ago. The two of them have, explicitly or implicitly, been telling the world that they are the same person for six years on that page.

The accusation that I'm doing this out of a "revenge" for a content dispute is ludicrous. If I were doing that, I would have just applied my administrative powers, not asked other admins for advice.

--Joy (talk) 07:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think Anon7mous should use a new account, given that Direktor appears to initially have been this user - this surely violates the shared account policy? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This is weird. Years ago I asked DIRECTOR why my username is red on[REDACTED] and asked him to fix it if he can, then he created my userpage and added the box that he had on his userpage at the time , copy-pasting he probably forgot to fix the link so it leads to my talk page.

Nobody "misused" this account, DIRECTOR certainly did not use it ("shared account"?), in fact this account was practically inactive from the moment it was created six years ago. I counted that I only did 4 edits (while logged in) before I seriously started editing a couple of days ago. I don't see why I would need to change my username, I already have some contributions linked to this account and I don't see why I should lose them? Considering Joy and I right now disagree about something, I can't help but see this as malicius somehow. Anon7mous (talk) 10:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I looked into this a bit more in the course of the discussion at WT:YU#Scope_.233, and I think I should explicitly write it here, too: Anon7mous' first edits in 2010 were reverts on topics well-known to be DIREKTOR's favorites (), and their first edits this year included an antagonistic discussion - saying someone else's edits made the article look "childish and pathetic" at Talk:Croats - and a salvo of talk page edits to add articles to this project twelve hours before DIREKTOR even added his proposed change: Talk:Croatia at 00:42 etc vs. WP:YU at 13:23. Even if the two of them aren't in collusion (violating e.g. WP:MEAT or WP:SOCK), this is hardly proper. --Joy (talk) 10:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

On talk:Croats all I sad was that our infobox would look silly if we crammed in 28 people, and I still stand by that. As I already explained, concerning two 2010 reverts, DIRECTOR and I did know each other (we obviously share some interests). If I remember all he did was mention some articles on[REDACTED] and I had look when I came home. I did not know that people who know each other can not edit[REDACTED] together? Having explained that, I honestly don't see why I need to answer for two reverts three years ago? Anon7mous (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I joined this project to contribute to WikiProject Yugoslavia. Reading through the archives of past WikiProject discussions I noticed that the scope had been expanded by agreement and that DIRECTORs restriction seemed to have been lifted. Accordingly I added some of my favorite articles that I wanted to expand to the project. I did not realize that the scope had not been amended and that there was still some disagreement on this. I don't see what would be the point of me starting a different account? Anon7mous (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Dynamic IP/IP-hopping vandal

Someone, most recently using 2600:1005:B028:FFD7:2129:587:1C38:6FD2 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) but who is currently blocked under 2600:1006:B12D:B804:E2F8:EABA:AB30:754E (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and has edited as 2602:304:AF53:3E99:31EC:6415:6846:32AD (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 2602:304:AF53:3E99:C1CD:C4F5:41CA:D57E (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), is inserting misinformation and reverting to old versions of articles (with deleted categories and interlanguage links). The user sometimes uses vague or threatening and abusive edit summaries. Should the IPs be blocked as they appear? Is a rangeblock possible? Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Request histmerge

A disruptive move occurred at Deadmau5 discography which caused it to be moved to the incorrect title of Deadmaus discography and another user did a copy-paste move to restore the article to it's correct title. Could an administrator please correct the history of that article. Thanks in advance! PantherLeapord (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I just took the liberty of moving the talk page back to the correct location as due to the copy-paste move it was still at the incorrect title. PantherLeapord (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz has performed the necessary moves. I've move-protected it for a month to prevent further disruption. FYI, Panther, please don't move talk pages to the correct titles when the articles are in the wrong place. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it makes it more complicated for the admin who performs the delete-and-move work for the articles. Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I will remember that if this ever comes up again (Hopefully it won't!) PantherLeapord (talk) 01:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Probably won't. This is the second time I've seen this kind of thing in recent months, but I don't remember ever running across it otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Re-creation of Han-Nom

The merge discussion on the above was closed, after a long time, as merge. Since then, User:Kauffner has been edit-warring to re-create it. I just discussed it with him on his talk page, and he said "Go take it to AfD already". Is that necessary or correct? Could someone try and engage with Kauffner. I'm afraid I lose my patience with him rather easily. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

For background, the merge discussion is here; all participants but Kauffner were in favour of a merge to Chữ nôm, which was done after further discussion here. (disclosure: Itsmejudith and I both participated in that discussion, and I performed the merge.) Kauffner asked about AFD here and was reminded of the difference between deletion and merging. Kanguole 23:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems that there is no contradiction in copying my writing while condemning me for writing it. Anyway, if Team Harassment wasn't busy with this one, I'm sure it would be some other article I wrote, or something else. I have a dream in which certain editors put less effort into stalking me and trying to destroy my articles, and more effort into writing their own articles. Kauffner (talk) 01:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comments - while one can sympathize with an editor with only a few article creations to see an article merged, the fact is that as Kanguole says above the article creation was largely duplicate of the existing Chữ nôm article.

(1) this issue has already been at ANI once to caution Kauffner for repeatedly removing User:BabelStone's original merge tag (a User who has no history with Kauffner and whose User page identifies himself a published academic authority on early Chinese), although it is difficult to find the specific ANI among all the other Kauffner ANIs.

(2) the root problem is partly WP:COMPETENCE in that Kauffner believes (to put into a parallel presented to Kauffner by vi.wp/en.wp editor User:Mxn) that "Graeco-Roman" refers to one subject with a script "Graeco-Roman" or a language "Greek-Latin". But this isn't the case; Vietnamese written with Vietnamese demotic characters (Nôm), and Chinese written with Chinese characters are two different languages with two different scripts.

(3) related to this root problem has been (i) creation of the Han-Nom article above, (ii) editing of Template talk:Infobox Chinese to create a category "Han-Nom" - ignoring the problem that many Vietnamese books, gods and places have both Vietnamese and Chinese names. (iii) creation of additional templates and insertion across the WikiProject Vietnam article corpus example (iv) moving and locking (as sockpuppet User:TenMuses for which Kauffner was just un-blocked) the article Institute of Hán-Nôm Studies (equivalent to a Department of Greek and Latin at western universities).

(4) And all this accompanied by the form of Talk page communication illustrated by the reply to Kanguole and Itsmejudith above. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

ACTION: the problem is not just the duplicate article, but looking at this is assigning Kauffner a 1RR limit an option on all these "Han-Nom infobox" additions across the WikiProject Vietnamese article corpus? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I just noticed the title of this section, which is quite misleading. No, the page was never deleted. I was simply reverting. We did this same song-and-dance over at page protection just a few days ago. The descriptor "Han-Nom" had been on both Template:Infobox Chinese and Template:Infobox Vietnamese for years. I wrote the Han-Nom article so that this descriptor would have a place to link to. The article itself has a collection of references that use the term. Kauffner (talk) 02:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That was reasoning to use in the merge discussion, not here after Kanguole's closing of that discussion. Admins, if Kanguole was correct in closing with a decision to merge, the article shouldn't be re-created, am I correct? Itsmejudith (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a good thing that people here get to see the kind of lies I've had to put up with. No, nothing was ever closed. The discussion is at Talk:Chữ_nôm#Proposed_merge. Kauffner (talk) 09:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Administrator The Rambling Man

The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This article was nominated for deletion today. The article's creator shortly afterwards sought out three editors so I referred the editor to WP:Canvassing.

Rambling man wrote in reply- "Godot13, in reply to your message, yes, getting involved with aviation articles will doubtless lead you to the cabal that believe they own all aviation articles across Misplaced Pages', which is a real shame. We had a good start, and even MilbourneOne's comments were being addressed on the talkpage, yet the trigger-happy owners of such articles'Bold text have deemed this one ready for deletion already. I'm sorry about that, although it's somewhat outside my edit zone. I've had a number of very bad experiences with some editors at the "aviation "project", and I suppose I'll just add this to the list. However, the one thing I've distilled out of it which I agree with (and I noted at the FLC) was the fatality %. I'd axe it. In other news, I've yet to do a proper review, so there may be other issues I could find, but the whole AFD thing is a sorry tale of presumed project ownership gone bad".

He accused the editors of the Aviation and other associated task forces that tend to aviation crash articles of conspiring to commit WP:OWN. This because some editors hold a differing view than his own. Note how he puts aviation project in quotes. Somebody will say this is a mild case of WP:NPA but this is an administrator with an extensive edit history. If an administrator thinks a whole project is conspiring to commit a violation of WP policy, then he either needs to put up or face discipline himself. If a administrator violates WP:NPA how can he be expected to uphold it?...William 01:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, why bring this here without talking with him first? Barring emergencies, you shouldn't bring something here first. Secondly, I've checked your diffs, and between them and the comments you quote, I don't see anything deserving sanction. I don't say this because TRM is an admin; general statements like this one aren't NPA violations if made by non-admins any more than they are if they're made by admins. Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

He also accused the project of WP:OWN here. It is not a one time occurrence and he gives no prove of what he is saying. Is accusing a project multiple times of violating WP policy acceptable behavior for an administrator? The project is over 200 editors BTW....William 02:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

First off, TRM's admin status is irrelevant here; admins and non-admins are equally responsible to follow NPA and all other policies. Secondly, this really isn't a personal attack, and it's really not actionable otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 02:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll second what Nyttend said here. NPA does not make all people immune from criticism. This is not a personal attack. --Jayron32 02:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Are we done wasting the community's time here? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

WilliamJE

WilliamJE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I wrote and recently published List of aircraft accidents and incidents resulting in at least 50 fatalities, which is currently a FLC, and has been referenced above.

This list was proposed for deletion yesterday stating that it “appears to be a jargon filled duplication of other lists already on Misplaced Pages.” My response can be seen here. An hour later this was followed by this AfD.

I am assuming that this is not the place to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) surrounding the AfD.

Upon notification, I further inquired and requested advice from three other users (as WilliamJE has pointed out above). He was very swift to remind me of the policy on canvassing to which I informed him that I had left messages for one of the directors of FLC as well as two editors who are actively reviewing the list, letting them know and asking them (as editors with far more experience than me) if they had any advice on how I should proceed. I also asked WilliamJE to assume good faith, which seemed to be lacking, and that I felt watched by the suddenness and tone of his message. The bulk of the discussion can be seen here. WilliamJE subsequently accuses me of being uncivil, then threatens an ANI, accuses me of threatening him, I respond, and in the meantime he takes Rambling Man to ANI, and then, I think, both threatens me and gloats about it at the same time. I did not address this on WilliamJE’s talk page based in large part on his threatening stance.

Regarding a circle of specific aviation editors-- Since I can’t seem to post inquiries on other user talk pages without observation, I will ask here: what are the elements necessary to establish a case of WikiBullying? Thank you.--Godot13 (talk) 04:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Godot, is it possible that you're a bit peeved that an article you started is currently at AFD, and you're a little sensitive? "Warnings" are not "threats". Being advised that your edits might be against policies such as WP:CANVASS is not harassing, or an attempt to drive you off this project. As your edits are viewable to the entire world, reviewing someone's edits to see if they might be problematic is not hounding. I see nothing in your diffs that suggest incivility, attacks, attempts to drive you off the project, or anything of the sort (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

IP spamming talk pages

Could someone please look into this IP's edits and correct cases where they have spammed the same section on the same talk page. Thanks in advance! PantherLeapord (talk) 05:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

You've never tried to discuss it with them, nor have you provided any warnings to them, but instead came direct to ANI? Your first requirement is to deal with the editor directly. I have mass-rollbacked all the additions, and dropped at least a L2 warning (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

User constantly adding unreferenced material to a BLP

Totalrecall999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been constantly adding unreferenced controversial information to Joshua Sridhar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - see here, for example. I have warned him twice, but he continues to add the material back in. StAnselm (talk) 07:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be a content dispute where one party claims the information is in the references, and another does not. Please try the dispute resolution noticeboard and this one to confirm the reliability of sources (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Really? Have you looked at the article? There are no references. StAnselm (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that Bwilkins takes another look at what was being added - per WP:BLP policy, there is no way that such material can be added without cited in-line references. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I meant WP:BLPN? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Totalrecall999 and an IP - presumably the same user - are still edit-warring with multiple editors over this, and as a clear violation of WP:BLP policy this needs to be stopped. This isn't remotely a content dispute, and foisting it off to WP:BLPN isn't going to solve it. Totalrecall999 has however posted on the help desk - maybe my response might finally get the message accross. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with Bwilkins reading of the issue here and have blocked the relevant account and semi-protected the page. I would have revision-deleted the problematic revisions but the material is too mixed up in the page history. CIreland (talk) 13:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

promotional userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The userpage of Bryancalabro (talk · contribs) seems to intend mainly the promotion of his own business. --Túrelio (talk) 08:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Notified. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bryancalabro. Best to discuss first. Shirt "TL;DR" 58 (talk)-- 09:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

User: Amaury

(The following is copied and pasted from User talk:Beeblebrox)

Amaury is abusing Huggle again. I know that your away, but I don't know where else to put this. 71.255.81.232 (talk) 07:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

(Talk page stalker) The links you added were not appropriate wiki material. Additionally, if you had a problem with my revert, why did you not come to my talk page like the message on your talk page said and ask about it? And no, the comment you inserted in a random place does not count. - Amaury (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not my edits were good is besides the point. The point is that my edits were not spam. I went to your talk page and saw that someone else was also complaining about you making false accusations. You said that this edit edit by 96.246.214.161 appeared "to constitute vandalism". The user was simply reorganizing the article in a way that made sense, possibly because incognito mode is a feature that has nothing to do with privacy from external sources, which is what privacy usually refers to regarding browsers, and Google has been criticized for user tracking. Regardless of whether you agree with the change, it was wrong to accuse the user of vandalism. I looked at your history and searched your many usernames in the administrators' noticeboard and saw that you have made false accusations many times and have been informed and told to stop many times. Examples 71.251.46.57 (talk) 07:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

(End paste)

I am willing to wait for Beeblebrox to come back from his vacation. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 07:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Amaury does one revert which includes removing blog and Youtube links and you're dragging him to ANI and providing diffs from 2009? Why? --NeilN 08:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not about removing blog and Youtube links. As you can see, he has been informed of his actions and told to stop many times. I am concerned that his behavior is driving other editors away. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 08:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you have diffs from the last year that indicates this is still an issue? --NeilN 08:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This is about false accusations, such as those of vandalism and spam. Recently, he used his edit summary to accuse me of spamming and accused 96.246.214.161 of vandalism, which I described above. 96.246.214.161 wrote about it on Amaury's talk page. I also commented, but Amaury removed my comment. The diffs that go back to 2009 are to show that Amaury has already been informed of the issue many times. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 08:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

More from this year (not included above) 71.251.46.57 (talk) 09:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

He just recently deleted messages intended for other users without initial permission and gave high level vandalism warnings for the messages. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

But it does seem that you were spamming Misplaced Pages with links to blogs and youtube ... so their actions towards your edits and the associated warnings do appear correct (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Um no, I don't know what you were looking at, but I was not spamming external links as he said, so his accusation in his edit summary was incorrect. I used one blog source and one Youtube source in addition to 2 mainstream news sources in an attempt to contribute to an article. The blog and Youtube source could be considered using unreliable sources. It was not spamming external links to the article.11:27, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Here he gives a user a level 2 vandalism warning for trying to insert an image into an article missing an image instead of fixing the formatting or explaining what was wrong. The image did appear to be relevant to the article. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

But they tried to insert a picture 332 pixels by 332 pixels ... which is not kosher (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not vandalism though. It was an attempt from the user to insert an image of the article subject. Amaury could have gave a proper explanation instead of making a vandalism accusation. Whether the edits made by other users were good for the articles is not the point, although he has called a lot of good edits vandalism. The point is that the edits were not vandalism, spam, personal attacks, or whatever other false accusations he makes them to be. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It could easily be argued that your links to a blog and youtube were spam. It could easily be argued that inserting such a large image was intentional disruption, and therefore vandalism. Yes, I agree that Amaury needs to be more careful with their use of automated tools, but I'm not sure you're painting a picture where some form of direct blocking is required (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I seriously do not know what you are talking about. He accused me of adding external links. External links are the links at the bottom of the article under the section labeled "External Links". The image added was not that large and is in fact the same image that is currently in the article. And even if you can argue it, you are supposed to assume good faith. This editor also explains the importance of the issue. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I know what an external link is, and I know what WP:AGF is...you might actually want to learn to practice it yourself :-) So, seeing as you cannot see the opposite point of view, even when provided by a neutral third party supported by policy, I'll ask you a question: what do you expect to come out of this filing? A block? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that Bwilkins and the IP are referring to different edits here - the IP seems to be referring to this , which contains no URL or other link. It looks to me to be a mistake in image formatting syntax, rather than anything else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate instances being referred to by Bwilkins. The first is when a paragraph was newly written that contained 4 citations. One source was from a blog, another was from a Youtube video, and the other two were from mainstream news sources. Some of the sources could be considered unreliable sources, not spamming links to external sites (exact wikilink Amaury used) like Amaury accused. The second incident was what Andy put, which was not vandalism. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Seeing as clicking a youtube link to a video increases the view-count on that video thus increasing its popularity rating, it most certainly can be called spam (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Youtube links can be used as sources. It was one Youtube link in one article and was relevant to the sentence that it was being used for as a citation. In this case, it could be considered unreliable as a source, but can hardly be considered spam, especially if considering good faith, and it wasn't in the external links section. I guess any content can be considered to be spam if you assume some sort of ulterior motive, but to make the accusation and include a wikilink to external links would be wrong. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 14:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I do expect some sort of measures to be taken, considering that he has already had automated tools revoked from him at least 3 times already and he has been warned numerous times on this issue. I am not sure how much of his behavior is due to automated tools, but he has full responsibility. A block seems necessary as people telling him over and over again has not worked. 71.251.46.57 (talk) 13:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Belarus Police

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am Officer Sergeant Mikhail Stroffovich from Minsk Police Force Division 5. We have some vandalism edits towards Belarus IP address 17-20 times. We need contact with senior contact and legal teams to negotiate and investigate . I appreciate if you have contact on my talk page. Regards. --Polishev Belarussia (talk) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Ummm, this↑↑↑↑ screams of Technoquat, no? Rgrds. --64.85.215.83 (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Article Head East

Hello, please forgive if I've posted this in the wrong place but I've come into a situation I'm not sure how to handle and need "fresh (and more experienced) eyes" on this matter. On 5 July 2013 an editor purporting to represent the American band Head East made substantial changes to the article. Key among them was removing the explanation of how the bands unusual name came about. The information was properly referenced -- it came from an interview of one of the bands founders -- so I restored it. I also tried to explain why to the editor, Headeastweb. However, they replied making noises about how the information is incorrect, slanderous, libelous, damaging to the band, etc.

I don't want to create a situation that would cause any legal difficulties for Misplaced Pages (or myself for that matter), but yet I feel that the inclusion of the information is relevant to the bands history and properly referenced. Please help with guidance and instruction on whether to remove the informaton or not. Is this a situation where it's just not worth the hassle regardless of whether I'm in the right or not? Much thanks! Sector001 (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have added a clarifying word to the article, welcomed the offending editor with welcome-coi, and left them a fairly clear yet stern note on their talkpage regarding their edits to the article (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Rossen4's conduct

• Rossen4 (talk · contribs)

I running against a wall of how to collaborate with Rossen4. In approximately 5 years of editing, Rossen4 has never used an edit summary, despite a request made in 2011. They almost never discuss their edits on a talk page. To be clear, I don't think a block is the correct next step. I'm just not sure what is the correct next step...

My involvement with Rossen4 came recently at the Modern Buddhism, where they have been edit warring to keep their preferred version in. At first, I tried to explain the problem with the edits in my edit summaries, but Rossen4 just reverted without explanation. Rather than cross the 3RR line myself, I 1) cautioned about edit warring, 2) again asked Rossen4 to use edit summaries, and 3) invited Rossen4 to join a discussion I started at the article's talk page.

Rossen4 ignored all my messages, and continues to edit without responding to my concerns. I'm really not sure what to do next... Singularity42 (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I left a note on their talkpage urging to engage. I noticed that they have never engaged in discussion on their talkpage, so I don't know how provicient they are with talkpages. They have to start responding to editing concerns. If they are unwilling to discuss, then they should not edit articles where someone disagrees with them. That's a very bad starting point for a collaborative project though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

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