| Revision as of 01:16, 7 July 2013 editApteva (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,591 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:43, 7 July 2013 edit undoWikid77 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users67,096 edits →Extremist editors leaving: huhNext edit → | ||
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| I am not sure if such a forum would be allowed to discuss unblocks longer than at ], or simply be ]-closed by admins not wanting an unblock to gain momentum. I think most proposals to steer admin actions are likely to fail. Feel free to comment there, or abstain, or delete this message. -] (]) 23:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC) | I am not sure if such a forum would be allowed to discuss unblocks longer than at ], or simply be ]-closed by admins not wanting an unblock to gain momentum. I think most proposals to steer admin actions are likely to fail. Feel free to comment there, or abstain, or delete this message. -] (]) 23:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :The only time I delete talk page messages (other than talkback/e-mail notices) is to move them to keep the discussion in one place. Everything else gets archived. ] (]) 00:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC) | :The only time I delete talk page messages (other than talkback/e-mail notices) is to move them to keep the discussion in one place. Everything else gets archived. ] (]) 00:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC) | ||
| == Extremist editors leaving == | |||
| Hey, Wikid77 here again. Just learned how SMcCandlish "retired" from WP on 2 July 2013 after 7.5 years (explained at ]) in conflicts with Sandstein and SarekOfVulcan (who is also fading after desysop). As I recall, SMcCandlish had tried severely to topic-ban 3 or 7 people who liked hyphens when they rejected balderdash. I have seen other meltdowns, out of the blue, when extremists target each other, rather than hounding the innocent bystanders who are easy victims for 1-month blocks when they calmly refute charges without showing any baited anger. I think the rule is: "When the opponent is right and polite, block on sight". Sarek is also fading, for a while, but both are taking wikibreaks, and any (re-)adminship there is doubtful. I keep reminding people to "suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous (mis)fortune" until more neutral people arrive to turn the tide here. Thank you for being a paragon of patience. -] 17:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
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Welcome!
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The "Li (surname)" saga.
Would appreciate your comments here after your recent participation in this discussion. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Really?
I just had a glance at User_talk:Tony1 ... are you seriously suggesting that an editor can not include 1 or 2 words of "praise" or even gentle correction on an article talkpage? Seriously? What better place is there to say "I like your idea, Bob - especially because xyx", or "I don't think that edit helps the article, Michelle since it doesn't meet abc" than right there in the middle of the discussion? Please don't ever try to dissuade that kind of proper interaction! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- If you want to be helpful, it goes on their talk page. Putting it inline in a discussion is exclusionary, and completely out of place in any collaborative decision making process. In consensus decision making we speak to the group, never to an individual. In parliamentary decision making we speak to the moderator, and never to either the group or the individual. You can say "I don't think that edit helps the article", but you have to leave it at that and not personalize it, but you can certainly say because of abc. You can say "I like this idea (with a diff if needed), and can certainly say because xyz, but you do have to leave the person out of the conversation and keep it on the topic. This is not new, and has been around for 400 years now. When parliamentary procedure was developed 200 years ago the same principle was adopted, keep the discussion to the topic and never on the individual you might be agreeing or disagreeing with at the moment. In this case you are flat out wrong in saying that sort of commentary is acceptable. Some editors, though react far differently than others, and to avoid any negative impact it is best to avoid all such personalizations. This is WP policy, and for good reason. Apteva (talk) 15:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Care to show me this policy you claim? This is a community, not parliament - we don't follow parliamentary procedure, and we most CERTAINLY take the time to give praise in public where needed. You're very very wrong on this (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- You could start with WP:Avoid personal remarks, but the policy is at WP:FOC: "Focus on article content, not on editor conduct." Feel free to clarify that to add "This applies to praise as well as complaints." I am well aware that WP makes up its own "rules", including one that is rarely enforced, to "WP:Ignore all rules", but this is something that has been developed over 400 years, and is not unique to WP. All adopters of any form of collaborative decision making conform to the same rule. Apteva (talk) 16:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Where does that suggest that a couple of words of praise cannot be included on the article talkpage when you see something that is appropriate? You're making shit up, and you know it - especially when you're quoting dispute resolution, when saying something nice is not part of a dispute. Stop telling people not to do the right thing - community comes first, and saying something nice is community-building (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- I am not making anything up. Focus on content, not on conduct, both bad and good. It is exclusionary and diverts from developing consensus. The place to say nice things is on their talk page, not on an unrelated discussion. Apteva (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- My examples provide ARE commenting on content/edits. You're wrong, and it's been proven. Please stop telling others differently. I'm unwatching this page now because I have now done right by the community by saying this, and proving it. Baseless comments and links to guidelines that don't even support what you're saying is tiring (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- They are mostly commenting on the edit, and they are mostly correct. The things that need to be changed are simply leave out the personalization, which is inappropriate. What you are simply proving is that the community often violates policy. On that talk page an editor even argues that it is "only a recommendation of a technique to use to avoid conflict, not a rule or conduct guideline", whereas it is not a guideline, but a policy, something that we are all expected to follow all of the time. Apteva (talk) 16:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Apteva, drop this. I know you think this, think you have good reasons for it, and have the best of intentions. But nobody agrees with you. Stop harassing people on talk pages, dragging them to AE, etc, over this. Stop it *now*. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- I am not dragging anyone anywhere over this. But with 6 billion people on the planet and most of them not having a clue what this discussion is about I would defer to those who do. Our policy is clear, and if anyone wants to make it more clear, they are welcome to do that. Praising someone is exclusionary and simply is not done, if you want to encourage participation. If the goal is to lose editors, well, WP is doing that quite well. Apteva (talk) 18:44, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Apteva, drop this. I know you think this, think you have good reasons for it, and have the best of intentions. But nobody agrees with you. Stop harassing people on talk pages, dragging them to AE, etc, over this. Stop it *now*. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- They are mostly commenting on the edit, and they are mostly correct. The things that need to be changed are simply leave out the personalization, which is inappropriate. What you are simply proving is that the community often violates policy. On that talk page an editor even argues that it is "only a recommendation of a technique to use to avoid conflict, not a rule or conduct guideline", whereas it is not a guideline, but a policy, something that we are all expected to follow all of the time. Apteva (talk) 16:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- My examples provide ARE commenting on content/edits. You're wrong, and it's been proven. Please stop telling others differently. I'm unwatching this page now because I have now done right by the community by saying this, and proving it. Baseless comments and links to guidelines that don't even support what you're saying is tiring (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- I am not making anything up. Focus on content, not on conduct, both bad and good. It is exclusionary and diverts from developing consensus. The place to say nice things is on their talk page, not on an unrelated discussion. Apteva (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Where does that suggest that a couple of words of praise cannot be included on the article talkpage when you see something that is appropriate? You're making shit up, and you know it - especially when you're quoting dispute resolution, when saying something nice is not part of a dispute. Stop telling people not to do the right thing - community comes first, and saying something nice is community-building (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- You could start with WP:Avoid personal remarks, but the policy is at WP:FOC: "Focus on article content, not on editor conduct." Feel free to clarify that to add "This applies to praise as well as complaints." I am well aware that WP makes up its own "rules", including one that is rarely enforced, to "WP:Ignore all rules", but this is something that has been developed over 400 years, and is not unique to WP. All adopters of any form of collaborative decision making conform to the same rule. Apteva (talk) 16:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Care to show me this policy you claim? This is a community, not parliament - we don't follow parliamentary procedure, and we most CERTAINLY take the time to give praise in public where needed. You're very very wrong on this (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Discussion about proposed unblock forum
This is an FYI. We can hope that more level-headed admins would be added to unblock the extreme, long blocks of users, but there is a wp:VPIL proposal to create a community forum to recommend faster unblocks:
I am not sure if such a forum would be allowed to discuss unblocks longer than at wp:AN, or simply be wp:SNOW-closed by admins not wanting an unblock to gain momentum. I think most proposals to steer admin actions are likely to fail. Feel free to comment there, or abstain, or delete this message. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- The only time I delete talk page messages (other than talkback/e-mail notices) is to move them to keep the discussion in one place. Everything else gets archived. Apteva (talk) 00:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Extremist editors leaving
Hey, Wikid77 here again. Just learned how SMcCandlish "retired" from WP on 2 July 2013 after 7.5 years (explained at Jimbo-talk archive) in conflicts with Sandstein and SarekOfVulcan (who is also fading after desysop). As I recall, SMcCandlish had tried severely to topic-ban 3 or 7 people who liked hyphens when they rejected balderdash. I have seen other meltdowns, out of the blue, when extremists target each other, rather than hounding the innocent bystanders who are easy victims for 1-month blocks when they calmly refute charges without showing any baited anger. I think the rule is: "When the opponent is right and polite, block on sight". Sarek is also fading, for a while, but both are taking wikibreaks, and any (re-)adminship there is doubtful. I keep reminding people to "suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous (mis)fortune" until more neutral people arrive to turn the tide here. Thank you for being a paragon of patience. -Wikid77 17:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)