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| : No one denies that the Berlas were Mongols; in fact, that's universally accepted by schollars. But the claim that they were Nirun or that their descendants still live in Mongolia is unsourced POV. The Barlas in Central Asia were Mongol in origin, but they had nothing to do with the modern country ]. Also, linking them to the Nirun (which is just the mongol name for the ]) is more than speculative. As a matter of fact, by the time of Timur's ascent to power, the Barlas had become Turks in habits and language (and perhaps also in identity, as Timur himself identified himself as a Turk rather than Mongol). | : No one denies that the Berlas were Mongols; in fact, that's universally accepted by schollars. But the claim that they were Nirun or that their descendants still live in Mongolia is unsourced POV. The Barlas in Central Asia were Mongol in origin, but they had nothing to do with the modern country ]. Also, linking them to the Nirun (which is just the mongol name for the ]) is more than speculative. As a matter of fact, by the time of Timur's ascent to power, the Barlas had become Turks in habits and language (and perhaps also in identity, as Timur himself identified himself as a Turk rather than Mongol). | ||
| : ] should read ] before putting more POV to this article. The most authoritative source on this subject is Prof. Beatrice Manz ... and nowhere does she claim that the Barlas were directly linked to the Rouran or to the modern Mongolian nation-state. --] (]) 17:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC) | : ] should read ] before putting more POV to this article. The most authoritative source on this subject is Prof. Beatrice Manz ... and nowhere does she claim that the Barlas were directly linked to the Rouran or to the modern Mongolian nation-state. --] (]) 17:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC) | ||
| I don't think that foreigners know about the Mongolia.Do you think that foreigners (Americans, | |||
| Serbs, Vietnamese, Senegelase) know about your Iranians better than the Iranians?Mongol tribes divided into 2 parts after Ergenekon: Category:Mongolian tribes and clans, Category:Nirun Mongols. ] (]) 12:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
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spelling
The spelling is atrocious. Would the creator (or someone who can get into the creator's head) please clean it up!
- Thank you! Odin of Trondheim 20:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
unsourced statements
I'm removing the following unsourced statements:
The Barlas were fierce warriors even among Mongols, and the famous American Historian, Harold Lamb wrote of them that "They laughed into battle" and that "They walked with a swagger and moved aside for no one." The Barlas Mongols originally rode out of Mongol lands with Chingis Khan, and subsequently settled as hereditary aristocratic warriors in the lands he bequeathed to his son, Chaghtai or Jagatai. That these warrior Mongols married, and intermingled to some degree with the local Turks, and settled in the lands bequeathed to Chagtai, does not make them Chagtai Turks, which they are often wrongly referred to as, because there is no such ethnic group, and it is just a loose frame of reference unrelated to actual lineage. The Barlas warrior who brought the clan to hegemonic imperial power was the fierce conqueror Timur or Tamerlane, (1334(?) - 1406) who conquered the Central Asian Steppes, Persia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, India, the Ottoman empire and much more. Old, blind and sick at the end of his days, and lame since his youth, he died in the saddle, on his way to conquer China, the only power left for him to conquer. Timur ibn Taraghay Barlas was widely considered the military equal of Chingis Khan, and was never defeated in battle, where, unlike Chingis Khan, he always led from the front. Timur's direct descendent, Babur, founded the Mughal Empire in India, the richest empire ever, anywhere, which ruled India from 1526-1857. Barlas was the imperial family of the Mughals of India, who are often misleadingly referred to as "Chagtai Turks" as discussed earlier. By way of Shakhrisabz in Uzbekistan, from whence Timur rose after the original Barlas Mongols had settled there, the Barlas became the imperial clan of Mongols that ruled the richest empire ever in India, and one of the richest and largest ones before that, across much of Asia, in the 14th century, under Timur. No other clan or family in the history of the world has ruled two such significant empires.
Please, provide cited references in order to check the verifiability of the information given. Thank you. E104421 (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
recent edit
I have tried to clean up and reorganize the article.
I have separated the article into 3 sections: (1) origins (2) Timurids & Mughals (3) legacy
I also added 2 additional infos (+ sources) to the article: a) a short reference to Qarchar Barlas (the eponymous ancestor of the clan) and b) a short reference to the Uzbek language which is the direct descendant of the Chagatai language spoken by the early Barlas.
The creation of the sections also needed the reorganizing of 2-3 paragraphs, but no information has been deleted or changed. Tājik (talk) 15:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Nawabs of Amb
The family of the Nawabs of Amb have long history of rule over the former Amb State also known as Mulk e Tanawul in pre-british rule documents, which is now a part of the NWFP, Pakistan. They are said to be descendants of Barlas tribe of the Mughals and this has been mentioned in many historical books, for example; The Asiatic Journal and Monthly Register for British and Foreign India, China, and Australia (1841), in the following words; "There is one chief who, though not an Eusofzye, yet from his position in the midst of, and intimate connection with, the Eusofzyes, and his singular history and character, must not be omitted in a description of the Eusofzye country. Paieendah Khan, of Tanawul, is a Mogul of the Birlas tribe, the same from which the Ameer Timoor was descended. All record of the first settlement in Tanawul of his family is lost, and it has long ago broken off all connection with the other branches of the Birlas, which are still to be found in Turkestan." (The Asiatic Journal and Monthly Register for British and Foreign India, China, and Australia Published by Parbury, Allen, and Co., 1841, Item notes: v. 39, Original from the New York Public Library, Digitized 1 Apr 2008, pg 220-224)
I believe this article must include these notable families which have Birlas descent, in what ever way it may look appropriate.Wikitanoli (talk) 06:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
RV
I have reverted the edits of a user that were no improvements and seemed to be a violation of copy rights. Tajik (talk) 10:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
About Mughal Pathans:
Mughol-zai is a subtribe of GilZai or Tokhi tribe: Tokhi (Ghilzai) A Ghalji (Ghilzai) tribe found throughout southern and western Afghanistan, although most heavily concentrated in Zabul and Uruzgan. Two main sub-tribes are the Muhammadzai (the largest) and Shamulzai (Shimalzai); other divisions include the Jalazai, Babakrzai, Miranzai, Jaffri, Pirozai (Pir Khel), and Kishaini.
Ghilzai pathans have been originated from Turkey.
(It may be possible that the people who are claiming themselves as Mughal-Pathans are actually Mughol-Zai from Ghilzai tribe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.31.240.166 (talk) 19:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
RV
I've reverted good faith edits by an anon IP, because they were a) wrong, b) based on an unreliable source, and c) not needed. Tajik (talk) 15:35, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- I have once again removed un-needed and unencyclopedic info regarding alleged ancestors in India. The name "Barlas" is used all across Central- and South Asia. No need to put too much weight on South Asia. Tajik (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- The motive for my addition was only to make the Barlas families scattered around Pakistan, aware the location of each other. I gattered this data from the Telephone directories of various cties and I would love if this data is added to this article or some other artice with the heading" Barlas - Pakistan".
- Nonenone4000 (talk) 05:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
----- I know that your edit was a good faith edit, but unfortunately, it is unencyclopedic and WP:OR. Modern "Barlas" people are not necessarily related to each other or to the old "Barlas" of the Timruid era. It's better to leave that out of the article. Tajik (talk) 17:41, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Chagatai vs. Uzbek
Chagatai and Uzbek are related, but Uzbek did not evolve out of Chagatai. For some time, the two languages even existed side-by-side. And the sources attached to that claim do not claim otherwise. --Lysozym (talk) 19:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Origin and descendants
Origin of the Barlas was Mongol, not Turko-Mongol.What is wrong with it? : "Barlas was a Mongol tribe of Nirun origin", "Descendants of them are living in Mongolia, Central Asia and Afghanistan" (Clan Politics and Regime Transition in Central Asia, List of Uzbek clans).I'm Mongol, this article about is the Mongolia, i added my source (Mongolian book about Mongolian tribes).I also added these edits on Russian version. Ancientsteppe (talk) 09:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have once again revrteted the changes made by User:Ancientsteppe. Not only is he adding unsourced POV to the article (the two links above are not considered reliable sources), but he is also falsifying the academic sources already mentioned in this article.
- No one denies that the Berlas were Mongols; in fact, that's universally accepted by schollars. But the claim that they were Nirun or that their descendants still live in Mongolia is unsourced POV. The Barlas in Central Asia were Mongol in origin, but they had nothing to do with the modern country Mongolia. Also, linking them to the Nirun (which is just the mongol name for the Rouran Khaganate) is more than speculative. As a matter of fact, by the time of Timur's ascent to power, the Barlas had become Turks in habits and language (and perhaps also in identity, as Timur himself identified himself as a Turk rather than Mongol).
- User:Ancientsteppe should read WP:RS before putting more POV to this article. The most authoritative source on this subject is Prof. Beatrice Manz ... and nowhere does she claim that the Barlas were directly linked to the Rouran or to the modern Mongolian nation-state. --Lysozym (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that foreigners know about the Mongolia.Do you think that foreigners (Americans, Serbs, Vietnamese, Senegelase) know about your Iranians better than the Iranians?Mongol tribes divided into 2 parts after Ergenekon: Category:Mongolian tribes and clans, Category:Nirun Mongols. Ancientsteppe (talk) 12:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
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