Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:08, 6 August 2013

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Consider other means of dispute resolution first
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • If the issue concerns use of admins tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• AI-generated images depicting living people
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

User:AfricaTanz refusing to engage in talk page discussions while engaging in edit warring

User:AfricaTanz is refusing to engage in any talk page discussions at LGBT rights in Jamaica while engaging in systematic edit warring including reverting of edits. When I talk to him on his user page I get abuse. This is not the first time he has been reported for this behaviour. Can an admin please take a look. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

You should still have notified AfricaTanz of this discussion. I've now left them a notice. On the other hand, you too are actively edit warring at this article. As to the use of quotations , there is no problem with using larger chunks of quoted text, but "the copied material should not comprise a substantial portion of the work being quoted, and a longer quotation should not be used where a shorter quotation would express the same information (WP:QUOTE)." The current article though relies heavily on verbatim quoted text, and this should in fact be remedied. De728631 (talk) 12:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I tried to notify AfricaTanz as soon as I had filed this report but was unable to due to a power cut (we dont all of us live in developed countries) and by the time I was able to get online again the next day he had already been informed by somebody else, ie you, De728631, and given his previous reverting of my comments on his talk page I decided there was thus no need for me to also tell him. The problem is AfricaTanz engages in edit wars while refusing to engage in discussion. Do we want to encourage this kind of behaviour in editors? Note that as usual he doesnt contribute here either but is still reverting multiple editors on the said article. Its impossible to remedy the quotes issue as AfricaTanz will simply revert without discussing, and its his refusal to discuss and his verbal abuse when I tried to on his talk page which are the reasons I have made a report here. I also fear that an editor who engages in religious hatred by calling Rastas bigots is not in a position to write neutrally about a real life conflict between Rastas and LGBT people. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:13, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

All I know is that I tried to delink a few entries and was instantly reverted by AfricaTanz, ok, that happens. I have now taken it to the talk page, but I am about 5 sections down in the discussion behind user SqueakBox's request to discuss his issues. I know my edits are very small potatoes, but lets see what happens. Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Time to block this user to prevent further disruption. I delinked, per WP:overlink, an article that was linked 5 times in a row. I guess we will see if that gets reverted. If so, please help. --Malerooster (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

At the moment, the article seems to be stable, but I've added a cleanup tag because of the overuse of quotations inside the article text. I recommend either paraphrasing some of the quoted law and press articles, or moving them to a footnotes section. De728631 (talk) 13:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm also faced with problems with User:AfricaTanz in the article List of country subdivisions by GDP over 100 billion US dollars. I added official figures for England and several French regions, with sources, but the guy reverted everything claiming he could not find data! You can see it here: . I see he has also reverted other editors who had added data for Mexican and Brazilian regions. Can an admin have a discussion with AfricaTanz? Der Statistiker (talk) 17:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I've left them a message about it. As to the French source, I can actually see though where AfricaTanz was coming from because you can easily miss the fact that this document consists of several Excel sheets, and the first one does not contain any such data. Anyhow, I hope that this was just a misunderstanding on their side. De728631 (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Bagworm engaging in grave-dancing/harassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hey, Hijiri88/Konjakupoet here. As some of you may know, I was run off Misplaced Pages by a disruptive user who contacted my office and started incessantly hounding me on- and off-wiki between January and April. (If you want details please e-mail my original account.) I came back under a different name in April but when another user (now also blocked) reported on me the off-wiki harassment continued.

I have since been editing intermittently on various short-term accounts and IPs, not so much to "get revenge" or right old wrongs, but just when I was reading Misplaced Pages and noticed a mistake somewhere. I have no interest in returning to actively editing Misplaced Pages under a stable account at least as long as that user is (probably) still watching.

However, I have noticed something disturbing since leaving. User:Bagworm has been "grave-dancing", apparently having found that I had retired and would be unable to defend my old edits. He had been disputing content and/or edit-warring with me a few times between September and December of last year. It got to the point where he attempted to unilaterally ban me from editing poetry articles, probably so he could undo all my previous edits to these articles. (No specific evidence that this was his intention, but when I posted this on my user page, it took him only seven hours to remove a "citation needed" tag I had added to one such article, based on the flimsy excuse that his other primary sources were adequate.)

After Bagworm realized he wouldn't be able to get rid of me (in all of our disputes I was the one with the better sources, and I was always ready to patiently discuss on the talk page, even if he wasn't), he apparently retired from Misplaced Pages, not making a single edit for almost four months. About 30 minutes after coming back, Bagworm undid an edit I had made under my second acocunt. I had removed a questionable citation of an online poetry mag (when he retired, we still had not reached any kind of consensus as to whether these were acceptable citations). I had not added any citation needed tag, since the statement is one of the most easily verifiable in all of Japanese literary scholarship, and could be checked in any good book on the subject. It therefore seemed inappropriate to include a link to an online American poetry magazine with little general relation to the topic of the article (waka and haiku are different genres).

I have mentioned a few times in this post that I have been engaging in "sock-puppetry". It needs to be noted that I have never cast more than one !vote or anything of that ilk, and have only been doing this to protect myself from the off-wiki harassment of a certain user. I know, given the circumstances, that this may be a little difficult to accept, so I'm taking the liberty of contacting a few users (Lukeno94, Cuchullain, Yunshui, In ictu oculi and Drmies) who are more familiar with the background of why I retired initially than most Wikipedians, and can verify my claims regarding "sockpuppetry". I am also, of course, contacting Bagworm, Dtweney and Someone not using his real name to allow them to explain themselves if they so choose.

What I request from the Misplaced Pages community is a TBAN on Bagworm from "Japanese literature", broadly construed, similar to the one that was placed on his co-edit-warrior Tristan noir for similarly slimy actions. This may seem somewhat extreme, but the user has done little for JLit articles, as far as I can see, other than remove verifiable information under the flimsy excuse that a "citation needed" tag had been on it for a certain length of time, add questionable sources to statements that either don't need them or need good sources, and edit-war with me/dance on my grave. The one or two semi-decent articles he started in this area don't stack up against the contributions I made and he is preventing me from continuing to make. (I already provided evidence of Bagworm's practice of removing information under flimsy excuses here.)

Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 11:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

TL;DR. Care to give the short version? — Richard BB 12:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

TL:DR Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:03, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Insulam Simia (talk) 12:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Didn't y'all go to real schools where they make you read real books? Or did you use TLDNR in class as well? Drmies (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

@Drmies:, I take it you're too old for SparkNotes? GiantSnowman 14:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Abridged version: I am a secondary account of a user who was forced off Misplaced Pages by a very disturbed user. After my main account retired, another user (Bagworm) started reverting a large number of my edits that he had failed to undo while I was still active. The user's disruptive edits are all in the area of Japanese literature, an area to which he has not contributed anything of note in at least a year. I would therefore like a TBAN imposed. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

the link you provided is for a banned user...Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The harassment was, as I recall, one of the reasons he got banned. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

That user is banned, but the user who is currently harassing me (aided by the already-banned user's sockpuppets) is still at large. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I reject the paranoid accusations of conspiracy leveled at me by the latest incarnation of Hijiri88/Konjakupoet/Coldman the Barbarian and his other "alternate accounts"/sockpuppets in the collapsed section above. I simply told him that if he wants the tinywords article deleted, he needs to follow procedure and take it to AfD, instead of edit warring with multiple IP socks. See the talk page there where he failed to participate, while edit warring from IPs. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I'm not here to argue with you. You've made decent contributions since then, and I have no serious beef with you. I merely brought you up to provide a fuller context to what was obviously part of a larger harassment campaign by Bagworm. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See also this discussion where I asked admin User:DGG to open the AfD, but he did not think it appropriate. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? Coldman/Jubei the Samurai/Hijiri88/Konjakupoet/182.249.241.* wants me TBanned because some of my edits have run contrary to his? Cos that's all the above seems to me to add up to. Pinch me, someone. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 12:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

It's a pretty huge chunk of your edits, and it's likely well over-half of your Japanese literature edits since you came back in April. And going around misrepresenting talk page discussions in order to revert the edits of another user who you just don't like is extremely disruptive. You have misrepresented the discussion between Konjakupoet and Icuc2 as forming some kind of "consensus" in favour of Simply Haiku, regardless of context, numerous times. You clearly feel that because my original account has retired you are free to go around undoing all of my edits you don't like, and not provide any valid justification. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

"You clearly feel that because my original account has retired you are free to go around undoing all of my edits you don't like". Please don't pretend you have some special insight into what motivates another editor; your wholly subjective assertions do not count for anything. Yes, some of my edits have been to text you previously edited. So what? Remember what it says at the top of every edit window at WP?: "Work submitted to Misplaced Pages can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone". Just because you edited articles in an area in which I've long been active doesn't give you OWNership. Please get real here. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

As for hounding, it is Hijiri88/Konjakupoet/Coldman the Barbarian/Eh doesn't afraid of anyone who followed me to a UAA report, trying to prevent one of his POV pushing Japanese nationalist wikially and spammer from being rightfully blocked Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Dude, you followed me to ANI first, solely in order to make a completely off-topic attack against me. And I already said I have nothing against you. What's the deal? Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Wait -- Japanese nationalist wikispammer allies!? Do you know anything about my edit history?? Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 12:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I did not follow you to ANI. I participate on ANI regularly. Do note that I supported the topic ban on the Korean POV pusher you reported to ANI. Do you participate in UAA regularly, "dude"? Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've been referenced here, and I'm going to make my comment. There is no question that JoshuSasori hounded Hijiri88, and that they continued to do so a long time after they were community banned. Bagworm gives every hint of engaging in identical behaviour to JoshuSasori (bar the disruption to Hijiri's workplace) - which is to say, that they stalk Hijiri's edits (if a little more sporadically than Sasori usually did) and revert them because of who made the edits. As to the exact topic dispute, I can't profess to have any knowledge whatsoever about who is right; this is most certainly not my area of expertise. I don't know much about the Romanian IP/"Someone not using his real name" part of the debate. I will say this, with regards to the Waka (poetry) edit referenced here (about the reference, ironically) - why the hell are people edit warring over whether to have one or two references for this? One should be sufficient, unless the other one is needed to try and further prove notability of the topic (which isn't an issue here) or the statement is controversial (which I'm assuming this isn't; again, I lack knowledge on this area, so feel free to correct me.) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your input, Lukeno94. However, your sweeping assertion, "Bagworm gives every hint of engaging in identical behaviour to JoshuSasori (bar the disruption to Hijiri's workplace) - which is to say, that they stalk Hijiri's edits (if a little more sporadically than Sasori usually did) and revert them because of who made the edits." appears to show a complete lack of AGF. "revert them because of who made the edits" - that is deeply offensive and absolutely groundless, and I would urge you to offer supporting evidence or withdraw the offensive remark. I most certainly do not stalk Hijiri/Jubei. A glance at his edit history will immediately confirm that he edits a whole host of articles that I have no interest in and no history of editing. I have no personal quarrel with Hijiri, and only in the last day or so did I become aware that the IP edit-warring at Talk:Waka (poetry) was actually him. If you're looking for real evidence of harassment, it can easily be found: Hjiri/Jubei/124 has in the last two days twice removed my posts to Talk:Waka (poetry), here and here He seems to be confused and is claiming that I edited his comments, which I certainly did not. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
    • No, you knew from the get-go (it was obvious) that Jubei and the IP were both me. I accidentally posted an unfinished comment while logged in to an account that I was keeping separate primarily to avoid accidentally outing an unrelated user. My phone is not the ideal way to edit Misplaced Pages, but thanks to JoshuSasori it's the only way I can do so without either setting up another named account for him to harass, or giving away my home IP. None of this was a justification for you to constantly revert my tweaking my own comment. I had no way of reverting your editing of my comment without also deleting your reply (again, phone), but I made it clear that you could restore your comment if you wished. Your continuing to claim that you have a right to revert my finishing my own comment is essentially claiming that it's OK for you to edit my comments, but not for me to edit my own.

Plus, your assertion that Luke is violating AGF is made without evidence. I provided probably too much evidence that you were harassing me, and you have yet to provide any evidence at all that this is not what you were doing. Can you explain why almost all of your Japanese literature edits since April (or last November?) are direct reverts of edits I made? Can you explain why you consistently avoid directly addressing my arguments, and instead focus on straw-man issues like whether such-and-such author knows what (s)he's talking about? It's obvious that you are looking for flimsy excuses to go around reverting my edits, and you think that since the account that made all those edits between 2005 and 2013 is now permanently retired you will be able to get away with it. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

"you knew from the get-go (it was obvious) that Jubei and the IP were both me" - How could that possibly be "obvious"? Though the IP's behaviour was reminiscent of yours, I had no way of knowing Jubei was you until you owned up. That's yet another irrelevance anyway, since I'm not questioning your motives in using multiple accounts here. What I do know is that you are the one repeatedly deleting my Talk posts in direct contravention of WP:TALKNO, and whatever technical straws you clutch at doesn't alter that. You keep making the accusation that I edited your posts. Please show a diff or withdraw this false accusation.

"It's obvious that you are looking for flimsy excuses to go around reverting my edits. No it is not "obvious" because it is simply not true. Please desist from making such purely subjective non-AGF assertions. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

You are trying to game the system by sticking to the letter of TALKNO and ignoring the actual purpose of the guideline. "I am only able to edit from my phone, and I can't copy or paste" is a good enough reason to blank-revert when someone else edits my comment. Slyly sticking in a separate comment in the same edit as altering my comment is your fault, not mine. I told you you were free to re-add your own comment, but I asked you several times to stop altering my comment. You refused until you were left with no other choice, and even then continued to insist that I was "repeatedly removing" your comments.

I have given the evidence that you are taking flimsy excuses to undo my edits ("I have a source in English that I am choosing to interpret as contradicting what Hijiri's source says" is another glaring example). Please address this evidence directly or admit that you have been hounding me. Your friend Tristan noir tried a similar strategy to your current one ("I don't need to explain my actions because of AGF") back in January, and he wound up getting TBANned. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 15:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly how is my asserting the broader definition of haiga by Haruo Shirane, Shincho Professor at Columbia University, probably the top scholar in Japanese literature in the U.S. at this time, a "flimsy excuse"? It is becoming increasingly clear that you've raised this ANI because my edits impinge on your sense of WP:OWNership of these articles which I've been editing since long before you took an interest in them. Not because of harassment (because there isn't any), not because of grave-dancing (as pointed out by DrMies, there isn't any). What a waste of administrators' (and my) time. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Taking a quote from a well-known scholar out of context, in order to make it appear that this scholar supports your POV when they clearly do not is a flimsy excuse. This has already been pointed out. You failed to respond, but your above comment indicates that you clearly still think you were in the right in reverting my edits. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Not true. What you have evidenced is simply a disagreement between us over the interpretation of a respected scholar's statements. That is nothing more than a content dispute, and your bringing it up here clearly supports my contention that your only motive for this ANI is a sense of impingement on your wp:OWNership of articles which I've been editing much longer than than you. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not about different interpretations. You misrepresented the citation, and then when I pointed out to you that Shirane clearly doesn't mean what you want him to you ignored me. Clearly you want Shirane to agree with your online poetry mags, when in fact he agrees with the actual definition of the Japanese word as given in Japanese dictionaries. I.e., he agrees with me. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 05:47, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

i.e. a content dispute: a waste of admins' time. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Let's just cut to the chase here: nominate the article for AfD instead of this proxy war by trying to determine who "hounded" who in an obvious content dispute. Bagworm is a fan and editor of Japanese-style literature in American venues. It's pretty transparent that Hijiri88 & co. have been campaigning to delete such articles. Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Bagworm first edited that article in 2008 . When did the many accounts of Hijiri88 edit it first? The earliest I could find was 2013 , but it's possible he used another account name before. Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Please read the comment you are replying to. This thread is not about tinywords, and I already specified that that's a sidenote here. The article Lukeno is commenting on is Waka (poetry) -- an article I created. I never said Bagworm "followed" me to the tinywords article, merely that he only reverted me for the same reason he reverted all those other edits -- he could. Now can we please get back on topic? This thread is not and never has been about tinywords in particular. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 13:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

No it's not. It's a bulk, specious complaint from yourself claiming you are being hounded by a conspiracy of editors, among which you have named me. I have never edited Waka (poetry). So why did you choose to name me in your complaint then and allege I conspired with others if it's all about waka now? Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Quick comment: "gravedancing" implies you're dead. You're clearly not dead, so technically there can be no gravedancing. And typically we take that to mean things like making fun of a "dead" editor on their talk page, etc. Edit-warring (if that's what it is) with a retired account the editor of which is still active is not the same as gravedancing, and it's not necessarily harassment. Correct me if I'm wrong: we're really talking about possible WP:HOUNDING, no? I noted one more thing in clicking through the diffs: Hijiri's opponents have a knack (and, historically, have had a knack) for using minor publications and webzines, to the point of promotion. That tinywords article is one of them--but that's by the by.

  I don't have all the time and attention in the world right now, but I'll get back to this. Drmies (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

  • DrMies, the only other contributor to suggest hounding is Lukeno94 (without a shred of evidence), and I have roundly provided evidence to the contrary above. What is your motivation in persisting with this groundless accusation? I most certainly do not stalk Hijiri/Jubei. A glance at his edit history will immediately confirm that he edits a whole host of articles that I have no interest in and no history of editing. I have not expanded my editing areas into Hijiri/jubei's. This is 100% clear. So, if I'm not grave-dancing, and not hounding, what exactly are we doing here? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Eh, at the risk of sounding like a school teacher, where did I accuse you of anything? Will you care to actually read what I wrote (I didn't think it was too long to read), or are you just going to open your spout and vent baselessly? (Hint: note the word "possibly".) Drmies (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry about that, DrMies. I struckthrough the offending text yesterday, but just saw your note now. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• No worries. Just because I'm a bit of an asshole doesn't mean I always act like one. :) Drmies (talk) 01:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

My experience is gravedancing on wikipedia is much more commonly taken to mean harassing or continuing to comment on, make fun of or try to shine a spotlight on an editor who is indef blocked or banned, or even simply temporarily blocked where it serves no useful purpose. Sometimes also a topic banned editor in relation to their topic ban. It may also apply to a retired editor in some cases. A key point is generally whether or not the actions are perceived to serve any useful purpose as when they are not, continueing to pursue the issue which has already gone against the editor on some way, is seen as pointless and harmful when the editor is either unable or justifiably has no reason to respond. See for example Misplaced Pages:Blanking userpages of blocked editors is not necessarily gravedancing or do a search for grave dancing on the ANs archives. While it' s true this isn't quiet the same as gravedancing is generally defined and used elsewhere outside wikipedia processes, and it's true doing the same for a dead editor is likely to be also seen as a different very serious form of grave dancing, the other use is not something that comes up very often. Nil Einne (talk) 15:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Nil Einne, please see this thread for the reason why my main account is no longer able to defend its edits. Bagworm has known about this since at least early May, when I e-mailed him. He has, however, persisted in undoing a significant number of my edits that he disagreed with, and when I try to revert on my phone, he dismisses me as some kind of IP-hopping vandal. He has not provided any valid arguments for his removals, because he apparently thinks he can get away with it now that my original account is retired. I considered this to be "grave-dancing", but I'm happy to use "hounding" instead. (If you want to know why I can't just set up another account or go back to my original one, I would be happy to e-mail you. Revealing it here would be self-outing.) Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I most certainly have not been hounding Hijiri/Jubei/Coldman. A glance at his edit history will immediately confirm that he edits a whole host of articles that I have no interest in and no history of editing. I have not expanded my editing areas into Hijiri/jubei's. This is 100% clear. Neither have I been grave-dancing even by Nil Einne's definition, since (as pointed out by DrMies) Hijiri/Jubei/Coldman is manifestly still active on the general topic. So please, someone tell me, what are we doing here, apart from wasting each others' time? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• So the fact that your first edit in four months was a revert on something Hijiri wrote is pure coincidence? Hmm. And I'm the King of Turkmenistan. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• • What are you even talking about? My first edit in 4 months (April 2013) was this one to Bruce Ross where AFAIK none of Hijiri/Coldman's sockpuppets have ever edited. I then made 5 edits, all clearly constructive, to Haiku in languages other than Japanese, where Hijiri was the last previous editor. Did I make any attempt to revert his efforts there? No, because they were constructive and helpful. What does it take for you to get that I am not interested in reverting his work for the hell of it? Please check your facts in future before making baseless allegations, and note that your WP:SARCASM is entirely inappropriate to this discussion. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 20:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• • You made a few small edits to that and one other article and then went straight ahead to undo one of my edits that had already been discussed, with my POV coming out on top. As far as I can see, almost all of your edits that were not reversions of me were not in the area of Japanese literature. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I reverted one of your edits. So what? The rationale was clear, as I pointed out at the time. Obviously we interpreted the discussion at the Haiku talk page differently. Is this really what you're wasting admins' time with? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Allow me further note, as a rebuttal of the spurious claim of hounding/harassment/personal vendetta, that I have had substantial, productive interaction with Coldman's sock, Sarumaru the Poet, as recently as mid-June at Sarumino (which I created), as evidenced by the article edit history and Talk:Sarumino. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 23:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• • One semi-good edit should not be used as an excuse for you to go around reverting all of my edits that you disagree with. I have made probably ten times as many good edits in this area as you, and we both no the reason for that: I am fluent in Japanese and have a serious academic qualification in this area, while you ... do not. When you disagreed with me and I was still active under one account, consensus was on my side in every single one of our debates, and the reason for that is that I always had a better case than you in consideration of Misplaced Pages policy and reliable sources. However, since my main account retired, you have been going around undoing several edits I made, apparently based on the assumption that I would be unable to revert you (or that I wasn't still watching those pages.) Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The above is simply untrue. If repeating untruths louder and louder is the way to get your point across here, perhaps I have something to learn from you. But sorry, that's not my MO. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Note, this is neither here nor there (well, it's actually both here and there), but I nominated tinywords for deletion. This as a kind of disclaimer, maybe, for whoever needs one. Drmies (talk) 14:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Cuchullain, I'm sure you're right, but can we please be careful to keep a clear distinction between the subject of this ANI (i.e. me Bagworm) and the entirely unconnected "harasser" you mention above. Sorry to be pernickity, but the entire above is so long that I'd forgive an admin or other editor for getting the characters a little confused. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 18:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've just had my entire recent post deleted by DrMies here with not even an edit summary. Perhaps a word of explanation for what looks like a rather high-handed approach? If it's because I've broken some protocol, then I apologise for my ignorance. Nevertheless, it should surely not be too much to expect an explanation. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It's an edit conflict, Bagworm, and I apologize. Drmies (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Thanks, DrMies. I'm relieved to hear that, and sorry for doubting you. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• The TLDR version of this is that the latest incident on waka is simply a content dispute between Coldman and Bagworm, involving some edit-warring. Do note that Coldman's and his other accounts & IPs are not new to intemperate edit warring with other editors besides those mentioned in this thread as part of the alleged conspiracy. Someone not using his real name (talk) 06:45, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

By "TLDR", do you mean "Too Lazy to Do the Reading"? Because if you had even glanced at the current waka dispute you would know that it has nothing whatsoever to do with content (neither of us have even proposed changing the wording of the article), and is rooted in Bagworm trying to add spurious links back to the article, apparently solely because I removed them previously. Additionally, Bagworm's history of making problematic edits in this area, as I hinted in the final paragraph of my first post here, goes back to 2008. He has been hounding me across numerous articles since last October, and has become especially blatant since April. If you like, I could upload images of my email outbox to prove that I wrote the first draft of this ANI case two months ago, and that that draft barely mentioned the waka article (or the Romanian IP, for that matter)? Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 09:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

If his edits are problematic across a range of articles, then you should start a RfC/U. Running to ANI with wild conspiracy theories in which you saw fit to include myself (although I have had no contact with you since you followed me to UAA on June 11) does not help your case. As far as I can tell, you were both edit warring on waka (you using IPs). I have no idea who is right in that dispute from a content perspective. From a purely behavioral perspective, you are both at fault, you a little more because what you have done can be considered WP:SOCKING. There was an editor who was recently blocked indefinitely for doing little more than edit-warring once while logged out. You have used multiple accounts to participate in several disputes, while not being exactly strainghforward about their relationship, so I have opened a SPI on you. Someone not using his real name (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• It looks like this is being handled privately by ArbCom , so I suggest closing this thread as redundant and a potential troll magnet (the tinywords AfD was already trolled). If Hijiri88 is serious about avoiding harassment from a certain banned editor, he should stop putting up these mega-threads where he accuses anyone who disagreed with him on something of being a meat puppet. And he can't be at the same time "retired" (thus complaining of "gravedacning") while he continues editing the same articles on topics which are so incredibly niche (e.g. waka) that they enable his instant identification. See advice at WP:CLEANSTART. Furthermore, he can't use "gravedacning", "harassement" and "meat puppetry" as trump cards whenever he has a content dispute with a non-banned editor in the same areas in which has previously edited. Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• In his latest content dispute, Coldman appears disingenuous in his interpretation of what User:Icuc2 actually said in the linked talk page ; Icuc2 did not reject using English sources, or that source (Simply Haiku) in particular. Icuc2 actually told Konjakupoet (another account of Coldman) that "Simply Haiku was also a refereed journal and rather popular in the field while it lasted. I wouldn't make any claims that all of the material in these journals is top-notch, but they do represent the more or less official views of the field, and I believe the citations were being used for that purpose (i.e. not to establish some obscure scholarly point that might need a more high-powered academic source). If you pull out these types of citations, I'm not sure there's much left at a higher level. So I think the standard you are applying here (and in some of your earlier Renga edits, is, if not unattainable, at least unrealistic. If you do have better sources, by all means put them in, but finding sources is a difficult and time consuming process, and no one here is getting paid to do it. It's not helpful to pull out functional references just because you think there ought to be a better source somewhere, particularly when content has been written in the first place based on a particular source that you are removing. In short, I'd much appreciate a reference crusade focused on adding new, better sources rather than removing sources that don't meet an unrealistic standard." Besides WP:NONENG encourages using English language sources whenever possible. This is clearly a content dispute that should be handled via WP:3O or RfC, not by playing the victim card at ANI or misrepresenting other people's words. I don't see why that citation had to be pulled when it's more easily accessible than the 1986 book (which in this case is also in English). The whole dispute looks like making a mountain from a molehill just to have a reason to drag someone to ANI. Someone not using his real name (talk) 14:12, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
• I have now made suggestions for improving the referencing on the article's talk page. The current references for that paragraph don't really verify the material as written. I suggest we continue this discussion on the article's talk in a more constructive fashion. Someone not using his real name (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• I might point out that User:Coldman the Barbarian appears to me to be at best skirting the line of WP:POLEMIC now. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

No polemic. I was told by ArbCom that I needed to stop editing under shifting named accounts. But I was specifically told that my activities were NOT disruptive, that I had OBVIOUSLY not been using these accounts to evade the scrutiny of the Misplaced Pages community, and that this ANI thread would stay open to let the Misplaced Pages community deal with Bagworm's harassment. You appear to have had my official statement of retirement deleted, so while I'm back I might as well open an SPI on Bagworm. I've been holding back on pointing out all the details of Bagworm's harassment because I would run the risk of outing him. But now this has gone too far. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 01:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Coldman is openly admitting to attempting to out me ("I've been holding back on pointing out all the details of Bagworm's harassment because I would run the risk of outing him. But now this has gone too far."). Yes, this has clearly gone too far. Admin action please! --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 03:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • With Coldman's admission of using the 182.249.241.* range on his phone, it is now clear that it was he who perpetrated a previous outing attempt on me here. The edit summary contained a real world name, and was erased after I contacted Oversight.--gråb whåt you cån (talk) 03:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Please see the SPI. I am not "attempting to out" anyone. I am pointing out that I have been aware of Bagworm engaging in disruptive sockpuppetry for a while, but have not reported it because there was a slight risk of accidentally outing him. Bagworm, however, has been actively linking my clean start accounts with an account that has been outed in the past, and failed to desist when asked to. I have admitted to using some of the information I knew about, but carefully wording it so as not to reveal anyone's real-world identity. Also, I have always, ALWAYS been very tactful about possible outing, even if other editors have been making their real-world identities perfectly obvious by openly engaging in self-promotion. Please someone deal with the sockpuppetry issue and ignore Bagworm's off-topic tirade. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 03:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

NOT an off-topic tirade. You have admitted to being 182.249.241.*, and 182.249.241.51 made a direct outing attempt on me on May 20, here. As I said above, the edit summary you used contained a real-world identity so I contacted Oversight suppressed the information. You have really gone way too far now. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 04:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly how is posting something on my own page as a joke a violation of WP:OUT? Even if I accidentally posted the same thing on your page first, before immediately reverting myself and admitting the mistake? You have openly attempted to connect me with accounts that have had personal information compromised both on- and off-wiki (to the point where I can't get it retracted), and despite my e-mailing you and begging that you stop you persisted. I have not even brought that up here because this thread is about your hounding of my edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coldman the Barbarian (talk • contribs) 04:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, I need to point out that I've made no shortage of good-faith mistakes while editing Misplaced Pages from my phone. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 04:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Stop skirting the issue. You made a direct attempt to out me, as Oversight's records clearly show (why else would they have removed the offending text?), and you are now doing the same with your SPI post, regardless of your disingenuous assertion to the contrary. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 04:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, Bagworm, you're digging yourself into a hole here, by claiming that something I have done in the last few hours was an "open attempt to out you". I have contacted numerous other users about this off-wiki, making it perfectly clear numerous times that I do not intend to out anyone. My direct statement of such on SPI and directly above this is proof enough that if you inadvertently out yourself during these proceedings, that was not my intention. I sincerely urge you to delete this entire subsection and ask oversight to remove it from view. I am the only other editor here and you have my permission to remove my comments with your own. Then we can never speak of this again. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 04:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, you are the one who has dug himself a hole (hence your uncharacteristic offer of compromise). Please read WP:OUTING where you will learn that an 'attempted outing' constitutes an attempt to connect an editor with a real-life identity, not necessarily their own. To mis-identify someone is just as much a transgression as to identify them accurately. You are the one doing the outing attempt now, and you are the one who did the outing attempt in May. There is nowhere for you to wiggle on this. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 04:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

How is compromise uncharacteristic? Seriously, I have witnesses to say that if you get outed, that was not my intention. Also mis-identifying oneself as a practical joke to mislead JoshuSasori (who was monitoring my userpage when that incident in May happened) cannot violate WP:OUT because I am allowed to identify myself if I so choose. Seriously, think about this: I have not posted anything, either here or on SPI, that could be considered "an open attempt to out" anyone, and have also made it perfectly clear that I do not intend to out you (although given that you made your own identity clear through your own self-promotion, I certainly could make such attempt). I do not intend to out you, so please stop this tirade before you say something stupid. Even if at this point your real-world identity became perfectly clear to readers, no one could possibly take that as having been my intention. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 04:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The facts speak for themselves. You have made two outing attempts for all to see. That's all there is be said. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 04:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Technically, expunged edits aren't there for all to see. Plus, if you think any of my recent activities here or on SPI were "outing attempts", I encourage you to contact Oversight and see what they have to say. I think it's perfectly obvious that I have not posted any personal information about you today, so your outing accusation is bogus, and the previous "outing attempt" was an obvious mistake that, when viewed in conjunction with all the other mistakes I have admitted to making while editing from my phone, is easily verifiable as such. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 05:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Your current attempt to link Bagworm with a real-world identity, however left-handedly, is a clear attempt at outing. The fact that that identity is one you know is not his real one is no defense, however much you protest. As pointed out above, WP:OUTING is just as serious an offense whether the identification is correct or incorrect. Similarly, claiming that the harmful information has been expunged from your earlier outing attempt is a laughable attempt on your part to hide behind your hands. It was expunged because it was harmful. Your current dangerous behaviour should be seen in the context of your setting up a venomous attack page targeting me yesterday. Happily that attack page was speedily deleted - see comments on your talk page by two admins here before you blanked it in shame. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Coldman, as it happens, I was the oversighter who suppressed that edit and, yes, it fell foul of WP:OUTING, because you were linking an account to a real-life identity. And such behaviour is a violation of WP:OUTING regardless of whether the identification is correct. Salvio 09:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you saw said "attack page" before it was speedied. It was not an "attack page", but rather a farewell address written at the recommendation of ArbCom in which I encouraged the community to protect my previous edits from further hounding by you -- something also recognized by Salvio Giuliani as an issue. This is why this thread will stay open until your hounding behaviour, and your hiding your admission to following me behind a sock account, is dealt with. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 09:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course I saw (and saved) the attack page you created, Coldman. It was speedied because it was an attack page, with your venom directed specifically at me and at SNUHRN as well as others you have speciously claimed to be in some sort of conspiracy against you. Your assertion that it was not an attack page is lame: obviously it would not have been speedied if it wasn't an attack page. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 09:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Not gonna reply to the above ingenuous attack, except to say that if any part of my farewell address offended Bagworm (or SNUHRN) I apologize. I genuinely don't remember what I could have written that was so offensive as to warrant the page getting deleted, but I really did just mean for the Misplaced Pages community to continue defending my edits from Bagworm, who has now admitted to stalking my edits. This about 90 minutes after claiming that his partner, and not him, had been the one following me. Neither member of the Bagworm family had been actively editing during this period, but this confirms that it was not a coincidence that his 7th edit after returning was a direct revert of me was not an accident, and his 2nd through 6th were to an article that I didn't technically create, but... CU also confirmed that Bagworm's IP had been making edits that "lend credence to allegation that been following ". It seems entirely possible that Bagworm used his IP as a sockpuppet to make edits that would clearly violate WP:HOUND. At the moment I can't recall a whole lot of IPs that I noticed following me, apart from one group that is based in Japan and obviously a different user, and one other group that made an off-topic personal attack against me on an AfD and later made a serious of vandal attacks against my page that directly outed me and so are no longer visible. Bagworm's confirmed meat-/sock-puppet that he claims is his partner posted on my (Konjakupoet) talk-page 30 minutes later and asked me to "clear things up", which if I recall was exactly what the vandal IP was asking me to do. Therefore, it is a confirmed fact that Bagworm has been engaging in meat-/sock-puppetry in his hounding campaign against me, and we can be fairly certain that while logged out he (or his meatpuppet) outed me directly and unambiguously, and made a malicious personal attack against me (linking to my professional profile on a freelance translation website and insulting my appearance). It appears this thread may have slipped into TLDR territory a long time ago, but under these circumstances Bagworm needs to be told that his behaviour is unacceptable, and so if this thread gets archived with no result I intend to post again with a much more concise version of events. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 13:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I apologise for this seemingly cloak and dagger approach, but I may not disclose the edits, because I'd be connecting a named account to an IP. However, I'd like to point out that a. the edits are really few and b. they don't link to your professional profile and they don't make fun of your appearance. I guess the point now is what administrative action you'd want. Would you be satisfied if Bagworm accepted a standard interaction ban or do you want something more? And, Bagworm, would you accept the terms of an interaction ban between you and Coldman? Salvio 13:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, okay... well, I'm not willing to accept a 2-way IBAN. I have done nothing wrong -- rather been the victim of a 10-month-long hounding campaign -- and last time that happened it came out pretty messy. Plus, even for a 1-way IBAN to be effective it would need to keep Bagworm from reverting (1) Hijiri88, (2) Konjakupoet, (3) Hitomaro742 and (4) Sarumaru the Poet. And that's just the already-connected accounts that were editing in Japanese poetry. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 13:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Coldman has grossly misrepresented the situation in his tirade above, and conflated information with wild speculation, some of which Salvio has thankfully refuted. I feel very wronged here. I have been the victim of a concerted campaign, first with Coldman's attempted outing of me in May (for which he is completely unrepentant and continues to laugh off as a "joke"), then here at ANI, and next at Coldman's attack page which was speedied. Nevertheless, if it takes a two-way interaction ban between me and Coldman, as Salvio has proposed, to restore some sort of normalcy to the situation (and to everyone's blood pressure), then yes I will reluctantly accept the admin's recommendation. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Bagworm wants the Misplaced Pages community to take his word over mine that, despite my immediately undoing myself and apologizing, I was consciously trying to out him. I thought my SPI was consciously trying to out him too? Has he changed your mind about that? Like he changed his mind about whether his partner was the one following me and not him? Or like he is claiming he didn't know about me being stalked by another user 18 hours after his "partner" directly commented on the stalker issue? And of his first 7 edits after returning to Misplaced Pages at the end of a 4-month hiatus, 6 of them were either to a page in whose creation I was integral part, or to directly revert an edit I had made. Note that all three of the so-called incidents he mentions above took-place after he started his current campaign of reversions. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Kindly cease misrepresenting facts. I never claimed not to have your user page in my watchlist, so did not "change my mind" when I mentioned that it was (in my watchlist). you have shown no evidence of me or anyone connected with me commenting on your stalker issue - the diffs you provide do not support that at all. All of the rest of your harangue has already been fully dealt with above. It is now abundantly clear that you are frantically trying to justify your refusal to accept admin Salvio's good-faith effort to put this saga to bed. You don't feel his recommendation is fair to you? Well I don't feel it's quite fair to me either. But we both need to know when to shut it and accept compromise proposed by a neutral player. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You changed your definition of "follow" mid-discussion. I said you were monitoring my edits (something no one has yet managed to disprove, with at least 2 other editors agreeing that you were), and you have been insisting throughout that this is not what you were doing. You then heavily implied that it was "your partner" who was following me, and not you. Then Salvio reported that not only "your partner"'s comment but also your logged-out edits indicated that you were following me. In all of these instances "following" clearly meant "monitoring my edits" -- which is what the whole point of this whole ANI has been the whole time. Then, you finally admitted to having been "following" me. Then just now you started insisting that "follow" as used by you means "have my user page on your watchlist", rather than "monitor my edits". Either (1) you changed your story, (2) you are deliberately using misleading language or (3) you are accidentally using misleading language despite this whole damn thread being all about you monitoring my edits. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 14:52, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a hypothetical question, as I know Salvio is not allowed answer, but how the devil could Bagworm's logged-out edits indicate that he "has my user page on his watchlist"? Of course even if CU cannot provide us with a concrete answer, everyone knows that the reason is that Salvio was working under the same definition of "follow" as everyone else, except (apparently) Bagworm, was. Coldman the Barbarian (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding mention of my late partner, here's all there is to it: She made this single edit, and possibly a very small number of logged-out edits previously (as confirmed by Salvio), which I now realise (and have come fully clean about) was very likely the result of inadvertent meatpuppetry. Salvio just a short time ago drew my attention to the detail of what meatpuppetry can entail, and it is stricter than I had realised. I have already offered a cast-iron guarantee that, now that I am fully appraised, there will be no repetition. The above is being blown out of all proportion by Coldman. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I have not changed my definition of "follow" mid-discussion. My only understanding of 'following' a user-page, article, etc has been to add it to my watchlist. If the accepted meaning of the term is different then I'm sorry if I misled. I don't spend nearly enough time in WP to monitor every move you make. Frankly, you're not that interesting. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of whether it was sockpuppets, or meatpuppets, or your main account, the fact still remains that you have been going around reverting my edits. Even if you don't spend enough time on Misplaced Pages to follow all my edits (it would take less time than I spend making said edits, which isn't much...), you have still somehow found a bunch of my edits worthy of reversion. You have more than once referred to said activities as "restoration" of what was removed "without discussion", indicating a clear awareness that it was me you were reverting. Did you not also know that it was me you were reverting with your other, similar edits? How about when you dismissed my citing a Japanese dictionary for the definition of a Japanese word, and then used your new source as an excuse to change said definition back to saying pretty much what it said before I had ever edited the article? You of course admitted that you had checked the history and knew it was my edits you were reverting. And when I pointed out to you that you were manipulating and thus misrepresenting your source you failed to respond. Please explain to us why you have been doing this, Bagworm. Coldman the Barbarian (Talk) 16:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

OMG, we have been thru all of this at least twice above. Are you just going to keep repeating yourself in a different order and hope that, because the thread is so long, people are going to get confused and think you're coming up with new stuff? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 17:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This thread has turned into one big battleground between these two users. And people are letting it happen?! Guys, take it somewhere more appropriate! Requesting Thread Closure and sanctions as agreed. (I assume some were agreed upon.) MM (Report findings) 16:47, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Wtf? This is a thread that should be on ANI, not anywhere else, and no sanctions have even been proposed. If you're not going to attempt to read the thread, don't make that kind of comment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:24, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Luke, before berating an editor for not reading the thread, perhaps you should read it yourself. Cos, if you did, you'd see that sanctions have been proposed, and that I, the target of this epic, have accepted them. Coldman, however, seems incapable of piping down, instead perpetuating the thread by selling the same goods over and over. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 17:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• OK, I'd noted the interaction ban being mentioned, but not as actually being proposed to be actioned. It's still a pointless thing, since you'll still wander around and revert Hijiri all over the place, safe in the knowledge that they can't complain. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Per WP:IBAN:

if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to:

• edit editor Y's user and user talk space;
• reply to editor Y in discussions;
• make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Misplaced Pages, whether directly or indirectly;
• undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means).

--gråb whåt you cån (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Because you'd pretend that any IP edits weren't actually Hijiri. And you know full well that you'll do that. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Which is why Misplaced Pages needs to find a way to protect Hijiri from Joshu's harrassment so he can return to normal editing. To my mind, this needs to happen before we worry about settling disputes of this nature, since until then Hijiri will always be in a position of vulnerability.--Cúchullain /c 13:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It's quite simple really. The thread (before my intervention) had aspired into what I saw as a battle between Hijiri and Bagworm, and last I checked doesn't a Battleground attitude generally cause problems and therefore don't we try to stop such battles from taking place? MM (Report findings) 15:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• If it were simple it wouldn't take up so much space (that's not to say it should take up this much space). There's nothing wrong with Luke's good faith, and an Iban of sorts is perhaps a good solution, at least for now. Drmies (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Luke: "Because you'd pretend that any IP edits weren't actually Hijiri. And you know full well that you'll do that"
Drmies: "There's nothing wrong with Luke's good faith"

Jeez, I'd laugh at the absurdity of the above, if it wasn't so sad. But it kinda sums up this topsy-turvy world. I've taken some time away from Misplaced Pages, and come to the conclusion that life without the stress of this kind of nonsense is... better. I love the idea of Misplaced Pages, but the practice has become something quite different. It has developed a 'system' which can be learned and played, and which by its nature favours those who have learned its tricks. I've been editing quietly and productively for many years, sharing my knowledge and improving here and there, in no big way, and have had very little occasion to have anything to do with its 'admin' pages. Along comes an editor, new to the area I've been working on for years, removes knowledge that has long been incorporated in articles, rubs everyone up the wrong way, utterly abrasive and not interested in collaboration or consensus, but displays enormous energy and stamina, and by manipulating the system gets his way. And so it goes that you drive away editors who simply want to contribute without being combative or learning the tricks of the system. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 23:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm back on one account now, so I can defend my own edits from Bagworm, so a 1-way IBAN is more agreeable to me now than it was two days ago. Although I don't think the community would oppose a double TBAN on "online poetry magazines" and "modern western poetry based on pre-1868 Japanese poetic forms" -- both ares Drmies shares my concern over. If Bagworm is now retired, I guess it makes no difference, though. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see a convincing reason to TBAN Bagworm. He has contributed productively to the area of Japanese poetry for several years now. You two need to learn how to collaborate better. Based on the publicly available evidence, Misplaced Pages:No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man seems to apply more to you, Hijiri88 than to Bagworm. If some check-user wants to block Bagworm for his alleged naughty IP edits (which have not been made public), he or she can obviously do that. If ArbCom wants to TBAN Bagworm for the same IP edits, they can do that. But there has been no convincing public evidence that Bagworm has done much wrong besides some edit-warring with you over trifling matters, in a topic area in which both of you have contributed productively for a long time. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

If Hijiri's in a position to edit using an account, an interaction ban would be better than a topic ban. However Misplaced Pages is simply going to have to do better dealing with the banned harasser or we'll be right back where we started again.--Cúchullain /c 13:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Bagworm has now retired . Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Footwiks

• Footwiks (talk · contribs)
• List of FC Seoul players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

What started off as a minor content dispute has not become a more serious conduct dispute. Quick background - there was a recent AFD of this article, initiated by myself. The result was 'keep', though there were a number of comments that the article was in need of a clean up. I attempted to do so by removing unreferenced/unencyclopedic content and basically trying to bring it into line with many other similar articles, some of which have been featured lists. However, I was immediately reverted by Footwiks, the article creator, who has severe ownership issues. In total he has reverted PeeJay2K3 (talk · contribs) and myself seven times in 3 weeks. He has not really engaged on the article talk page, and when he has he has simply accused me of being a "vandal" - and his English-language skills are poor which is making. I attempted to raise the matter at DRN, but was advised it was more conduct than content (though the two here are related), and so I am bringing it here as this kind of behaviour cannot continue. GiantSnowman 12:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

As an interested party, I probably don't need to comment here, but I have to agree with GiantSnowman. I've been aware of Footwiks' contributions for quite some time, and the guy just doesn't seem to understand that he has to abide by Misplaced Pages protocols. The ownership issue is the most pressing at the moment, but I really resent being called a vandal by someone who simply doesn't like what we're doing to "his" articles. – PeeJay 12:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• I remember this AfD, even though I didn't participate. Footwiks' weak English was evident in the AfD, and, being blunt, they don't appear to give a shit about consensus or Misplaced Pages guidelines. Labelling constructive edits as "vandalism" is always a bad sign. "Here is wikipedia. Why are aritcles regarding club's list of players same format? Who set a standard? Don't suppress the freedom of editing. Is Snowman owner of Misplaced Pages?" is an example of a poor grasp of English, a poor attitude, and someone who doesn't understand how Misplaced Pages works (and, arguably, doesn't care) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Projecting obscenity onto another editor is not a matter of being blunt, it shows an inability or unwillingness to use English to express your viewpoint.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• "Inability or unwillingness to use English" - uh, last time I checked, the word "shit" was English. If I'd said "merde", then that comment would be valid; as it stands, if you're going to take a swipe at someone for using terminology you dislike, at least bother to use the correct terminology yourself! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• As a semi involved party (I closed the DRN as unsuitable) I support GiantSnowman's assessment of the situation and Lukes assessment of the situation. While some of the issues can come across from a language barrier I think it's mostly due to the poor attitude and understanding of the policies of the editor in question. Cabe6403 13:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah, if you have to ask "why are the articles in the same format", that's not a language barrier... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• I concur with GiantSnowman and Lukeno94. I looked at the AfD, the talk page, the page history, and DRN. It's absolutely clear that Footwiks has ownership issues. The accusations of "vandalism" are completely ridiculous, as well. I'd potentially support a topic ban from List of FC Seoul players and other list articles until Footwiks can demonstrate thorough understanding of the article ownership policy and realizes that there must be specific inclusion criteria for a list. CtP (t • c) 15:00, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• If there's talk of a topic ban, then I'd suggest from all articles related to FC Seoul, broadly construed. GiantSnowman 16:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed. The user appears to deem themselves the sole arbiter of FC Seoul content here, so I'd say they should be banned from contributing to any article related to that topic. – PeeJay 16:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Just a procedural note: The DRN did not "fail" but was simply closed for lack of extensive discussion with a recommendation that it be filed here by the closing DR/N volunteer.--Mark Miller _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 19:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Apologies; clarified. GiantSnowman 20:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• As the Korean Misplaced Pages's admin, I can say that he's using English Misplaced Pages to reference notability for an article in Korean Misplaced Pages such as Dongdaemun derby, Gyeongin derby and FC Seoul Reserves and Academy. Most of his contributes were reviewed at AfD in Korean Misplaced Pages. His problem in Korean Misplaced Pages was mostly about WP:OR. --kwan-in (talk) 14:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

Per GiantSnowman and PeeJay, I propose that Footwiks (talk · contribs) is topic banned from any and all articles related to South Korean football club FC Seoul, broadly construed. The topic ban may be lifted when it's clear that Footwiks understands and is willing to abide by Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles. CtP (t • c) 17:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban I'm sorry, but just block him or ban him out right. We are way to liberal with all these specific topic bans, and it's already nearly impossible to keep track of who can and can't edit about whatever subject. It's not like this guy is being constructive elsewhere on the project, and just can't get over his POV about this one topic. He either "gets it" or he doesn't at this point. Ditch ∝ 17:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• These are valid points. CtP (t • c) 17:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Just because you can't keep track doesn't mean the editors involved can't. Not an argument at all really.--Mark Miller _{Just ask! WER TEA DR/N} 18:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I can see where he's coming from when he says that it's pointless to topic ban him from one thing if he's not going to be constructive anywhere else. CtP (t • c) 18:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd support a lengthy block if that's the only other alternative. He does seem to contribute fairly regularly, so a shorter block might work, but if we want him to properly get the message, it needs to be at least a couple of weeks, maybe even a month. A ban seems a little harsh since he's not been particularly abusive, he's just been bandying "vandal" around (which I have to admit gets used far too often around here). – PeeJay 18:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban - he seems to do decent work on football and South Korean articles in general, and banning him outright is a massive over-reaction, so a topic ban from all articles related to FC Seoul, broadly construed (that means editing articles about current players, past players, results, matches, seasons etc. etc.) seems like a good solution. GiantSnowman 18:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - At the end of the day, this is the first step. If the user becomes disruptive elsewhere, we can block them; this is currently the only area of disruption, so let's remove them from it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:40, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• Excuse

I'm korean. Please understand my poor English, English is not my mother tongue. But Please listen to my opinion. Firstly, There was a List of foreign FC Seoul players and List of foreign FC Seoul players. But List of foreign FC Seoul players article is deleted after discussion and merged List of FC Seoul players many years ago and exist for many years.

A few weeks ago, User:GiantSnowman raise a deletion on List of FC Seoul players and after discussion, Article can exist under Consensus. But, Later on, User:GiantSnowman point out format of article, The format that User:GiantSnowman want is covered same content with Former notable players paragraph of FC Seoul. Why are same contents on Misplaced Pages? List of FC Seoul players and Former notable players paragraph of FC Seoul. When the List of foreign FC Seoul players deleted, consens was merging and after recnet discussion result was No deletion. So I understood that this article format don't have problem.

And article ownership problem is just misunderstanding. I just expressed my editing version. What I mean is not that List of FC Seoul players of my own article.

Try to put yourself in my place. If you discuss in Korean. Can you express your opion perfertly?

If the User:GiantSnowman's editing version is only allowed on Wikepdiea, Please delete this article. Same player lists are also exist on article FC Seoul

Two articles about same content are waste

Finaly, Due to my poor English, I can't express my opinion and don't understand what you mean perfectly. So There was misunderstanding on discussion.

I fairly contributed on football and South Korean and expecially related articles FC Seoul sinse 2009. I didn't cause any problem 5 years. I can't accept topic ban because they are just discussion misunderstanding and language misunderstanding me and GiantSnowmanFootwiks (talk) 18:03, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

If you thought that there was no problem with the article just because it survived an AfD, you clearly either didn't read the comments from User:GiantSnowman or User:Hack. Misplaced Pages lists must have inclusion criteria: if the criterion for inclusion at List of FC Seoul players was "this player must have played for FC Seoul", then you have to list everyone. Since you didn't list all former FC Seoul players, you obviously had more specific inclusion criteria in mind that you probably should have noted down on the page. Listing the club's foreign players or those who have competed in major tournaments (for completely different teams, I might add) are not suitable inclusion criteria when it comes to indicating why these players are notable in connection with FC Seoul. There are numerous lists of players for different clubs that have reached Featured List status, and I see no reason why this one should be any different. The fact that I am saying this indicates that it is not just GiantSnowman who believes changes should be made to the article – it is far from "his" version, it is one that is supported by community consensus. The fact that you are unwilling/unable to accept this suggests to me that you are incapable of working in a community environment such as Misplaced Pages. – PeeJay 22:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Many years ago, Misplaced Pages granted the freedom of editing flexibly. As I said before, Past consensus of players list is that We can list any topic about club players. Especially, foreign players and players who have competed in major tournaments are informative list and information that many people want to find.

(List of players who have competed in major tournaments explained that players are only belong to FC Seoul participate Major tournamtne, e,g World Cup, Olympic football)

So Many football club pages had these list in briefly.

For example, World Cup players paragraph of F.C. Tokyo and Many football clubs had independent article about list of foreign players in the past.

Like List of FC Seoul players, Many years ago, List of foreign Persepolis F.C. players is also deleted and merged List of foreign Persepolis F.C. players. In this manner, Many fooball club foreign players list merged to Lis of XXX Club players.

But Misplaced Pages changed and suppressed freedom of editing. So many informative contentS and articles are deleted now. Many years ago, I can serch and find the foreign players by football clubs. But now We can't find these informations due to controller like GiantSnowman

I have feeling of doubt about editing fo wikipedia. I'm not wikipedia employee and edinting is just hobby in order to give useful information to users. English is not my tongue. So editing contributions and discusiion took many times. Editing contribution may delete someday. Editing of foreign players list took 4 months, Editing of players of major competions took 3 months. But now dissapeared. Eventually, I wasted my presious spare time.

I just want to give the useful information to wikipedia users.

Finally, I accept and understand that consensus of editing changed frequently and editing freedom is very reduced than before In order to prevent wast of my precious time. Before the editing or creative new article, I will grant permission for editing or creattion to controller like GiantSnowman Footwiks (talk) 03:10, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Footwiks, given your poor English, I really think you'd be better off on the Korean Wiki, where you're less likely to be misunderstood/to misunderstand people. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:08, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with Lukeno94 here. I suppose Footwiks could still make uncontroversial edits here like updating scoring records or adding new players, but he should not edit war at all costs, and he should also avoid getting into any complex disputes, for example those regarding layout, until his English improves. This may seem a little unfair, but those discussions are too difficult when one party cannot express himself clearly. Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• • OK, I accept your advise. I also realized that English wikipedia is only territory of native English Speaker and heavy wikipedia users. As I said again, My editing standard is past consenus. List of foreign Persepolis F.C. players article also had same editing standard. Editing is not my job. It's just my hobby. So I only edited when I have spare time. I don't have time to check out econsensus of article standard is changed or not all the time. And I can't give a response immediatley on discussion everyday.

I think that English wikipedia needs heavy users with much spare time or professional users who can discuss everyday.Footwiks (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• I didn't say that the English Misplaced Pages is only for native speakers; however, you need to have a sufficient grasp of English to be competent enough to edit on this Wiki. Imagine the mess that would occur if I tried to edit the Korean Misplaced Pages using Google Translate! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I have a question. Firstly refer to List of Persepolis F.C. players, These article also have player category who participate in major tounaments and foreign players. Secondly refer to List of Chelsea F.C. players, List of Manchester United F.C. players These article also have captian category and award winners category. What is the difference from my editing version User:GiantSnowman and User:PeeJay2K3 insist that player article only have just listed players category who done some caps. What is the problem of my editing version? Is problem more detailed content about player than articles like List of Chelsea F.C. players, List of Manchester United F.C. players etc Please treat faily.

Don't be afraid of article standard improvement.

My editing version have more useful informaions than GiantSnowman’s editing version (For example, users can find foreign players, captian players, world cup players among all of FC Seoul players.) GiantSnowman is worried about that disunifying of standard unificaion regading player list article of football club all over the world. My editing version don’t disunify of articles standards unification. It is improvement of standard about player list article of football club Footwiks (talk) 01:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It's been said multiple times, it isn't GiantSnowman's "version" it is one that is supported by community consensus. If I understand you correctly you want to lower the inclusion standards and put a load more players into the lists you've linked, some of which are Featured Articles? Cabe6403 08:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I said multiple times my editing version is also one that is supported by community consensus 2-3 years ago. my editing version have same article standards of List of Persepolis F.C. players

My editing version inclusion standards (Former players, Foreign playes, Captain players, World Cup Players etc)

GiantSnowman editing version inclusion stadndards (Only players list with some caps)

Only Difference of my editing version and List of Persepolis F.C. players is that my editing version is just more detailed. Why do not action on List of Persepolis F.C. players, List of Chelsea F.C. players, List of Manchester United F.C. players? You only do action on List of FC Seoul players tenaciously

Please treat faily. Footwiks (talk) 09:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Footwiks, I genuinely do not know what you are trying to say here, please can you make it clearer? GiantSnowman 10:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, What I mean, my editing version inclusion stadndards is also one that is supported by community consensus 2-3 years ago.

Please reply my question. What is the difference between my editing version of List of FC Seoul players and List of Persepolis F.C. players

Please compare two articles.

1. |List of FC Seoul players-my editing veresion 2. List of Persepolis F.C. players

Difference is my editing version had more detailed informations. Is editing in detail wrong?

Footwiks (talk) 10:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, you're making little-to-no sense, but from what I can determine you are using WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as justification for your edit warring, and for addition of unreferenced material to an article, contrary to consensus? GiantSnowman 10:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I get the feeling that a WP:CIR indefinite block might be needed here. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:55, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Footwiks, as far as I can tell, your version of the FC Seoul has a much lower threshold for inclusion. Just look at the contents table, Persepolis has 4 categories whereas yours has 39. That's quite a difference. Take a read over at WP:FANCRUFT, while it may be of interest in a specific football wikia, that level of details isn't really suitable here on en.wiki Cabe6403 16:18, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Tabarez = Reza.Piri

Hi everyone. I think it is obvious that User:Tabarez (banned indefinitely on 11 June 2013 for copyright violations) returned with User:Reza.Piri as his newest sockpuppet. It just takes to look at their contributions (mostly about Iranian politics and sport) to see they are the same person (WP:DUCK). It really looks like WP:SOCK to me, so I guess an admin should look at this case. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

As can be seen, User:Reza.Piri appears to plan to engage in an edit war at List of Presidents of Iran, in the same fashion as Tabarez did with his main account, and after its indef blocking with his socks. Its a clear WP:DUCK IMHO. --Sundostund (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I have filed a sock puppet report at WP:SPI (direct link). You should have reported him there, not here. Thomas.W 09:58, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thomas, I really appreciate your opening of a sock puppet report, I hope it will help to finally end this sockpuppet nonsense by Tabarez. But, as can be seen, Reza.Piri is still unblocked and he's still editing articles on Iranian politics and sport, including his edit warring on List of Presidents of Iran. I think some admin should deal with that. --Sundostund (talk) 16:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked Reza.Piri, so that sock is out. Now we need to see whether Tabarez plans another "comeback", with some new sock account or IP... ‎--Sundostund (talk) 11:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

As I suspected, he now uses another IP. I bet this is his newest block evasion - 2.178.185.80. ‎--Sundostund (talk) 12:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

His newest IP is 2.178.77.198 - exactly the same behavior as before, including edit warring at List of Presidents of Iran... --Sundostund (talk) 18:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

And now he is 2.178.163.156, look his edit warring at List of Presidents of Iran and Inauguration of Hassan Rouhani... This really becomes pathetic. --Sundostund (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we REALLY need a rangeblock here, it appears this guy went mad at List of Presidents of Iran and Inauguration of Hassan Rouhani. --Sundostund (talk) 20:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

His current IP is 2.178.79.203 - again, same editing patterns as before... This guy is so stubborn! --Sundostund (talk) 09:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

And now his IP is 2.178.160.190... --Sundostund (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Is this Good Article Reviewer a sockpuppet?

Yesterday I submitted the article International System of Units for review as a WP:GA. This morning I received a note that User:FishGF was reviewing the artcile. FishGF's account was first created at 06:21 this morning and his/her first action was to start a Good Article review at 08:00 this morning. The reviewer's initial comments look like they come from a disruptive editor, possibly a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of User:DeFacto.

I find it incredible that a complete newcomer can conduct such a review. This undermines the whole principal of Good Articles. I request that the actions of this editor be reversed and the the Good Article evaluation process be tightened up in respect of who can review an artcile. I will deal with this specific editor separately on WP:SPI. Martinvl (talk) 08:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, could also be a random newcomer trying to make a comment and mistaking the GA review venue for a general article feedback or talkpage venue? Or does the specific point he raised reflect a pattern connected to DeFacto (beyond the fact that DeFacto was obsessed with this topic area in general)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

FishGF clearly fails WP:CIR with regard to the ability to judge the merits of an article against the GA criteria. I will help review the article; any others are welcome. We will make this a community review. Binksternet (talk) 09:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat, blanking

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Praveenant (talk · contribs) has been removing content on corruption from Government of India because, as he said on my talk page, "Every Country has their negatives all cannot be part of a generic article which could affect the growth or view of other of a country, That is against the country sovereignty. Kindly ignore content wich could affect mass people." His latest removal of the content included a legal threat in the edit summary, and I'd already issued a final warning. I might be WP:INVOLVED, so I leave it to another admin's discretion as to whether or not it's time for a block. Qwyrxian (talk)

NLT block applied as this is obviously intended to have a chilling effect. Even if and when the LT is rescinded, the smell here is of WP:NOTHERE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Good call on the NLT block. Lankiveil 08:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC).

Clarification needed on the indefinite topic ban for Yogesh Khandke

Yogesh Khandke was given an indefinite topic ban on everything related to colonialism and Indian history here. I have asked the administrator for clarification on the scope of this TBAN but he has not bothered to respond. I would like to know just how far back in time is YK allowed to edit? I am of the opinion that the article Anti-Muslim violence in India falls under the scope of the ban as it covers Indian history from just before partition up to 2002. This needs to be clarified. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

(1)My topic ban was related to Aryan Invasion Theory some thing that happened thousands of years ago, my involvement in the discussion is limited to events taking place after 1983 and later, very much contemporary events. My topic ban was discussed during user:MRT3366's AN/I case and my editing was not considered inappropriate. My editing subjects have been at a barge pole's length away from the scope of my topic ban imo. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

YK, please could you provide a link to the discussion that delivered this result? Kim Dent-Brown 12:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment: The topic ban terms are extremely broad, but in my opinion, Yogesh's edits to Anti-Muslim violence in India do not fall under the topic ban because he was alive during most of those times. In his own words, he was a teen in 1983. Events of that time are contemporary events, Yogesh has been staying away from the topics that actually initiated his topic ban, and so there is no need to nit·pick. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 12:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Contemporary history is also history. Yogesh has clearly violaed his topic ban. And he hs been doing so consistently over the past 6 months - exhibituing the exact same behavior pattern of tendentious editing and promotion of fringe views that led to the topic ban in the first place. I am extremely surprised no one has noticed, if I had knewn of the topic ban I would have requested enforcement sseveral months ago.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:41, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Last year's events are also recent history, going by the strict definition. So should Yogesh be banned from editing them too? Absurd. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 12:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Anir1uph. While I didn't read the entire ban discussion, it appears that the focus is colonialism, not recent events. Yogesh should be careful to avoid the bahvior that led to the ban, but I do not see that edits relating to events in their lifetime should be covered by the ban.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

When referring to history, the boundaries generally apply to anything prior to contemporary history (which, as explained by Anirluph, includes what happened last year and even yesterday). These "history topic bans" must be exact in their definition of history and not simply assume what is included into them.

In fact, with a TBAN on "Colonialism and Indian History", I would assume that any pre-Colonial and post-Colonial Indian history would be fair game.--MarshalN20 | 13:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't say "History of Colonial India", it says "Colonialism and Indian History". And events in India after 1983 are very much "Indian History". Thomas.W 16:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

No. "Colonialism and Indian history" can be understood as a single topic. When making restrictions on history, boundaries must be placed on the timeline. Current events, which fall into the realm of contemporary history, are not what people have in mind when they refer to history. And the definition of a "current event" is different depending on the person.--MarshalN20 | 16:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Stating that history is whatever happened before one's lifetime is absurd. It means that for my grandfather a topic ban on history would still allow him to edit articles on World War I. History includes topics described by historians using historical sources and methods - and which includes recent history but not current events. The 2002 Gujarat Violence the 1983 Nellie Massacre, and the history of anti-Muslim violence in India (which deals extensively with colonial and early post-colonial examples) which Yogesh has been extensively involved, are obviously topics of relevance to Indian History - and his editing has been furthering the exact same political points of view that were problematic in his editing of Indian history. Furthermore Yogesh's behavior in editing these topics have been EXACTLY the same that lead to his topic ban. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, yeah. "Current events" are...current...not "within your lifetime". Would the Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan be a "current event" for me? "Current event" does not vary and the statement that they do is...puzzling at best. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point. By that logic World War 1 would have been a current event for Frank Buckles in 2010 since he was the last surviving American veteran who died in 2011.--70.49.82.207 (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for not commenting earlier on this, as the admin who originally imposed the restriction. I'm a bit on the fence about this one. On the one hand, I personally would have understood the restriction to be applied widely, including recent history, and I think I once told Yogesh I believed he was breaking the restriction when he was commenting on one of these issues. This is especially since it has been my impression that his conduct in this "recent history" area has been problematic in a similar way, and motivated by a similar set of political-ideological issues, as his conduct in the ancient history area (echoing Maunus' observations above). On the other hand, I can't overlook the coincidence that a similar case is currently under consideration at WP:ARCA, where the arbs recently topic-banned somebody from "Argentinian history" but are now telling him in a clarification request that he is free to edit recent history after 1983. In the end, we might just have to look more closely at whether and how Yogesh's behaviour in the recent history domain is independently objectionable, and if so, reimpose a more clearly defined/clarified/widened form of the topic ban under the discretionary sanctions rule (which wasn't yet in place when the original community topic ban was imposed). Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Presumably the ARCA ruling is motivated by the fact that the topic that proves difficult for the particular editor to edit usefully ends in 1983, and is no longer relevant for subsequent periods of Atgentinian history. This is not the case in the case of Yogesh's ban because the subject matter that has proved difficult for Yogesh to approach in a useful manner is still present and in effect up untill the very recent history of India.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:46, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

(1) @user:Kim Dent-Brown: During another editor's AN/I case my comments were hatted for being from a topic banned editor, in response, I said the 2002 events were contemporary events, I was not contradicted, later on the same admin's page when "Darkness Shines" requested clarification, I presented my argument, I was not contradicted. (2) @All: The events which I'm editing are contemporary events to me and a majority of Misplaced Pages editors, the examples given above: "my grandfather", Frank Buckles are extreme cases. 35% of prolific editors are over 40 years old. Statistically the average age of a Misplaced Pages editor is 32 years. Aren't these events contemporary ((meaning: belonging to the same age, living or occurring in the same age or time) for the average Wikipedian? Would an editor banned from editing American history and colonialism be banned from editing Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan too? Is his assassination an event in American history, esp. when deciding the scope of a topic ban of someone who was banned for his edits related to 2nd millennium BCE in North American history (3)(a) My ban area is Indian history; the disputed historical event was whether The Aryan migration theory is disputed or not the time frame of this incident is 2000 to 500 BCE. (b) I was sanctioned for slow edit warring. (b)When I my edits were called garbage and reverted, I hit back by undoing those reverts and calling them vandalism. That was the editing behaviour and editing area that caused me to be banned. (4) Since the ban (a) I've stayed many tens of centuries away from date of the dispute I was banned for. (b) Since my ban I've put myself on a zero revert policy, i.e I don't revert anyone who undoes my edits. (c) My last block was over a year ago, and I've made over three thousand edits since on a broad variety of subjects. (d) Since my topic ban I've learnt that it helps the project for editors to be civil and have endevoured to be so. (4) I've made zero article space edits to Anti-Muslim violence in India so the question of edit warring etc. doesn't arise. (5) The said article discusses 1946, 1983 and 2002 as major events, in talk page discussions I've stayed away from 1946. (6) The ban didn't specify a date, I've given no reason imo since my last block a year ago, for the ban to be made stringent. I've tried to make positive contributions to the project as I enjoy doing so, I've taken my ban in the right spirit, by trying to address the causes of sanction, I leave it to the community to judge. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I've made 3 edits out of the 3921 edits to 2002 Gujarat violence and zero edits to 1983 Nellie massacre so I don't have extensive involvement as alleged above. I'd be happy to have any of my edits scrutinised for my inability to be useful in any area of Misplaced Pages. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

As a direct participant in the ARCA case, the topic ban was actually the broad Latin American history spectrum. Again the key word here is "history", and what the arbitrators meant by it was "non-contemporary history" (as is common by most individuals).

Bushranger and Maunus are unfairly looking for loopholes in my statement. Yes, obviously WWI is not a current event...but no respectable historian would call it "contemporary history" either. However, Reagan's assassination attempt is certainly within the boundaries of contemporary history (although not a current event).

I haven't checked Yogesh's contributions and in no way am I either supporting them or opposing them. All I am defending is the fact that the history topic ban is ambiguous and in need of more specific restrictions. Yogesh should not be punished for the ambiguity of the ban. I am also not blaming the banning administrator, who is acting based on what seems a common procedure.

The point of my statements it that there is a lesson to be learned from these events (for all administrators and arbitrators), which is that topic bans on "history" must either be specific or include a few more lines that also TBAN contemporary history and current events related to the topic. Perhaps a mention or discussion of this is worth at the WP:TBAN page.

Regards.--MarshalN20 | 23:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

IBAN requested

I am requesting an IBAN between Dharmadhyaksha and myself, throughout all namespaces in english wiki. I have previously asked this editor to not follow my contributions, yet he persists. This revert proves without a doubt that he is both stalking me and reverting my edit for no reason, the article being an obvious fork of Martyred Intellectuals Day. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous observation: Looking at the talk pages of both parties and edit summaries, I think there's a boomerang about to hit. 2.121.145.49 (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The unilateral reversions are concerning - and the fact that they're at the brink of 3RR doesn't help much either. Dusti 00:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

If all namespace interactions are banned, how would you guys interact on content discussions especially as this is not the first page you two have interacted about and had differences and would not be the last either. I guess the AfD will take care of whether the page in question is a POV fork or not. Are there any other recent edits/reverts which he has contributed only after you started your contributions on a page? Please provide them.  A m i t  웃  

He followed me here, two days after I had created the article, that revert is his reinsertion of OR which he added and I had removed. He followed me to Anti-Muslim violence in India, a new article I had created and his only contributions to the article are to add pointy tags and raise cain on the talk page, for no purpose other than to waste my time going by his comments, see this talk page section re both the tags and his actions on the talk page. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I need some clarifications about WP:IBAN before we move to all these baseless accusations that i am particularly only following this user and not simply editing the article falling under WP:INDIA, which i have been editing all life long. So... Can i propose IBAN for any user? For example, can i propose IBAN with this IP 2.121.145.49? I have never interacted with them before so i don't care even if we were IBANed. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 03:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Gross misuse of article talk page, immediate action requested

I request someone step in to read Talk:Gospel of the Ebionites#Proof-reading the lead, perhaps remove material which does not meet TPG, including my own, and perhaps notify editors involved of the appropriate talk-page guidelines. John Carter (talk) 20:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for having not notified the other combatant, BTW. John Carter (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Folks, this is a little dust-up on the way to arbitration User:John_Carter/Ebionites 2 evidence. Consider the incivility directed at me Talk:Gospel of the Ebionites#Question of POV from the top of the talk page on down. Ignocrates (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Since we are here, I won't waste the trip. Please consider removing the tag that was placed on the article Gospel of the Ebionites#Relationship to other texts resulting in this discussion: Talk:Gospel of the Ebionites#Neutrality tag. Ignocrates (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• John, so you're asking some random admin to get into this fray and start deleting talk page content? I suggest both of you try to limit how widely you spill your dispute around Misplaced Pages. This isn't a stop on the dispute resolution train. --Laser brain (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
• John, to be quite honest with you, what I see here is one editor raising concerns about a featured article review, which is an entirely appropriate use of a talk page. I see inappropriate responses to that initial statement from two other editors, but you're one of them, as you're dismissing rather than addressing the concerns. If you feel they're invalid, say so, but also say why. Ignocrates, your responses to John are also inappropriate as they are personalizing the dispute, and "get off your ass and address them" is needlessly inflammatory and certainly uncivil. The both of you should be focusing on concerns with the article, not bickering. A trout for the both of you, and if either one can't focus on the content rather than the writer, stay away altogether. Seraphimblade 21:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Basically, I'm asking someone to ensure that the conduct meets requirements. There is a very long history of misconduct on both sides here, me among them. Unfortunately, honestly, I believe (think what you will about my beliefs) that personalizing matters is, per his history, pretty much the primary tactic of Ovadyah/Ignocrates for some time now. Honestly, I would appreciate firm warnings regarding misuse of the talk page to both parties, with the possibility of enforcement through standard measures should inflammatory, off topic commentary continue, and, possibly, someone to refactor the page should behavior continue to get out of hand. John Carter (talk) 22:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Please note similar uncivil interactions between John Carter and multiple editors: User_talk:Ignocrates/Archive 4#Opinion please and recently diff 1; diff 2. This is not an isolated incident involving two editors. Imo, TPG should apply here as well. Ignocrates (talk) 22:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Nor are false and irrelevant accusations against others even remotely new for you, as per User:John Carter/Ebionites 2 evidence. I also believe that it would very much help if additional editors ensured that WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and other tactical maneuvers to avoid dealing with legitimate concerns be enforced, by administrative action if necessary. John Carter (talk) 22:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure if I should make this comment here as it is not directly relevant to the issue under discussion, but I don't know where else to put it and I feel it needs to be discussed by the wider community. User:John Carter has what seems to me an extremely odd attitude to WP:RS and WP:NPOV. He says that one of the leading authorities of today on the New Testament,Bart Ehrman, has as much credibility as Tom Cruise talking about Scientology diff 1 and compares Ehrman's works to comic strips diff 2. Ehrman has had seventeen books published by Oxford University Press, two by Harvard University Press and has written three university textbooks, used to train other scholars and professionals in the field, on the New Testament. But User John Carter dismisses Ehrman as an author of "popular books" and says that he can only be considered WP:RS when he agrees with "academic sources", see diff 2 above where he says "But popular sources are in general less well regarded than academic sources, and if we can find an academic source which says what Ehrman says, they would be the better sources. If Ehrman says something that academic sources don't say, then there might be a problem". Apparently because Ehrman, in addition to his seventeen books published by OUP, has also written for a general readership and produced NYT best-sellers without scholarly apparatus such as footnotes and bibliographies,etc., this disqualifies anything he has written from being used on WP. It appears John Carter does not consider Oxford University Press to be an "academic source", which seems absurd to me. John Carter has been involved in long running disputes with User Ret.Prof and User Ignocrates and issues lectures and warnings to them about various policies and guidelines, just for instance diff 3 and see diff one above, but John Carter himself does not seem to me to understand WP:RS or WP:NPOV at all. Apologies if I have addressed these concerns in the wrong place, I have discussed it with John Carter on several talk pages, but he basically just repeats that Ehrman is a "questionable" source because he writes "popular books".Smeat75 (talk) 14:06, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I messed up the link to Bart D. Ehrman above, now I hope it is correct and will direct to the WP page which says " Ehrman is a leading New Testament scholar, having written and edited over twenty-five books, including three college textbooks."Smeat75 (talk) 14:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Fyi, I tried WP:Dispute_resolution noticeboard/Gospel of the Ebionites prior to this ANI filing; it just closed due to non-participation in resolving the content dispute. Ignocrates (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Commissioner Gordon and disruptive editing at Robert Falcon Scott

Commissioner Gordon (and his self proclaimed second account Team911lotus, diff), has been permanently blocked on the German Wikiepdia (see here, in German)(and see Talk:Robert Falcon Scott#German Misplaced Pages blocking users for trying to repair and clarify fraudulent misinterpretations in the German Article of Captain Scott.). He edits primarily the Robert Falcon Scott article and its talk page, with some edits to my talk page and to other articles on Antarctic exploration.

He has a very high opinion of Scott and opposes anything in the article which he seems to feel is negative about him. As an example, please see this section of Scott's talk page, where he wants to change a sentence in the article's Lead from "From a previously unassailable position, Scott became a figure of controversy, with questions raised about his competence and character." to this "From a previously unassailable position, Scott became a figure of controversy with questions raised about his competence and character, while it remains unclear, whether these doubts are just a product of a character assassination campaign driven by feelings of envy, grudge and jealousy created by supporters of other polar explorers like Amundsen and Shackleton, who felt offended as they alledgedly came short concerning publicly displayed honour and appreciation towards them." The section then gets bogged down in a discussion of the meaning of stoicism.

It's not me having a high opinion on Scott, but this guy being a fanatic supporter of Ernest Shackleton fighting any edit saying anything remotely positive about Scott. He is also part of a minor fraction trying to defame and villainize Captain Scott, to the extreme that they composed an utterly biased article whose neutrality has been disputed but which can nevertheless be found on any searches relating to Scott. This article should be banned ASAP as it is an accumulation of false pretenses, concealments and distorted facts.

The change he is talking about was only supposed on the discussion page by me and not in the article itself. The complaining user has repeatedly reverted any attempt of trying to rectify the distorted misrepresantations, like for example quotes by fellow and highly praised antarctic exploreres Mikkelsen and Borchgrevink, while his whole attitude can only be desribed as defaming and presemptuous.--Commissioner Gordon (talk) 22:53, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I removed some of his edits to the Scott article - please see Talk:Robert Falcon Scott#Bold, revert, and discuss. I have a lot to do today IRL, so just read the Scott talk page section on BRD. Things had settled down until today. Now he is back and is flirting with WP:3RR for these three edits removing the {{Main}} link to Controversies surrounding Robert Falcon Scott for being of disputed neutrality: , , and . Note - I removed the NPOV tag from the Controversies article as it was based on the lead not having references diff.

The controversies about the article Main article: Controversies surrounding Robert Falcon Scott is not only about the lead. This so-called lead takes about 50% of the article's text, therefore omitting fellow wikipedians the possibility to change ANYTHING. Apart from that, the article refers to merely a hand-full of authors and therefore is a strong candidate for consideartion of this golden rule by the wikipedia inventor himself

"If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages"

Misplaced Pages:WEIGHT#Undue_weight

CG has accused me of "defraud" see the Talk:Robert Falcon Scott#Commissioner Gordon, please stop section and if you want more of his invective (some auf deutsch) please see User talk:Ruhrfisch#Disputes between two great men - is it worth disturbing their peace?. I have a whole lot to do still tonight in real life and am going to post this, notify him (as I also have warned him about sockpuppets and 3RR and no personal attacks) and get back to work on something I get paid for. Ruhrfisch _><>° 22:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This user has not only defrauded the Misplaced Pages Community of an original image of a statue of Captain Scott, he has also managed to cut out the possibility of "undoing" his deletion. I have made a screen cap of the original version history, which obviously has been falsified....--Commissioner Gordon (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Commissioner Gordon, just put your posts at the bottom of the section (like this one). You are messing up my post with your interpolations.

For the record I have made a total of 3 edits to Controversies surrounding Robert Falcon Scott, see here Ruhrfisch _><>° 23:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I am just replying to your allegations on spot, and by the way, it was you who also tried to put the blame on me, misplacing a comment by another user into a conversation between us two, trying to put the wool over the community's eyes here and then talk yourself out of the matter with a paltry excuse on the discussion page...

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3ARobert_Falcon_Scott&diff=565398440&oldid=565185175

Comment by user 86.131.44.59:

"It is suspicious that Ruhrfisch (a German name...) is trying to defend the problematic German site and discouraging us from discussing it here in English (and thus alerting a worldwide audience to the potential fraud...). Can Misplaced Pages step in and sack the German wiki administrators who are responsible? As far as I can make out from the German website, there is one main perpetrator calling himself "Jamiri", and one or two supporting sycophants. Taking out the main perpetrator would probably suffice as the first step, so Ruhrfisch should have nothing to fear, initially. "

And here the fresh evidence of how you cut out the "undo" option (right at the bottom the last edit on 18th of march, 2012:

http://www.upload-pictures.de/bild.php/37124,verstossruhrfisch8KRMW.jpg

In comparison, the version history after another "intervention" by the user "Ruhrfisch" , to cover his tracks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Robert_Falcon_Scott&offset=20120423141643&action=history --Commissioner Gordon (talk) 23:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've blocked Commissioner Gordon for one week for disruptive editing and personal attacks. Ruhrfisch, you have the patience of a saint; fortunately, I do not. I've also blocked the illegitimate alternative account indefinitely.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks Bbb23 - I once stupidly blocked someone I was in a dispute with (then unblocked them). Since then I try very hard to be more patient, but my halo slips often. ;-) Ruhrfisch _><>° 00:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't know until now that people threw boomerangs in the Arctic. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

And his block is "illegal", of course. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

When was the last time someone saw a real living fish in the Ruhr? Drmies (talk) 19:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

A complaint about User:Sitush

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In http://en.wikipedia.org/Digvijaya_Singh User:Sitush has taken effective ownership of the wikipedia article. Relevant discussion may be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Digvijaya_Singh (please scroll down to the section 'User:Sitush and Batla House Encounter Edit) . I have already taken this to Dispute Resolution (where it is still pending) but i believe this is the more appropriate forum now to deal with the issue since Sitush's misbehavior needs to stop now and Dispute Resolution is not the appropriate forum for this purpose. My allegation is this: Reckless to the explicit rules and guidelines specified in WP:Ownership and WP:Consensus, Sitush is now treating this WP:BLP as his personal facebook page. Sitush has persistently been flouting wikipedia rules and guidelines, specifically the Balance and Impartial Tone clauses in WP:NPOV in a WP:BLP and also WP:Consensus. I have given many examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Digvijaya_Singh (see the section 'User:Sitush and Batla House Encounter Edit') where he has done this. Even the sub-section 'Batla House Encounter' whose content was disputed (which was why i had taken him to Dispute Resolution) was deleted completely together with a unilateral deletion of the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section (of which the 'Batla House Encounter edit' was part) by User:Sitush while the dispute was still pending in Dispute Resolution. My contention is that Sitush seeks WP:Ownership of the article, is not interested in WP:Consensus, continues recklessly with violating the Balance and Impartial Tone clauses in WP:NPOV in a WP:BLP and hence deserves to be recused from editing this article henceforth.Soham321 (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Lots of people complain about Sitush because Sitush is one of the few editors willing to take the time to maintain a range of articles in accord with standard policies, while a never-ending stream of new editors arrive to make sure their particular outlook receives prominence. The report above contains lots of links to various policies and guidelines, but I can't see any diffs showing something that needs attention at this noticeboard. Please pick one item and quote a few words from it so the text can be found in the article, and/or the talk page. Briefly say why the item is a problem, and what action you recommend. Other editors are unable to take the time to explore the very long Talk:Digvijaya Singh#User:Sitush and Batla House Encounter Edit. Johnuniq (talk) 07:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
• There is currently an active complaint at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard taken out by Soham321, so there is a degree of forum shopping here. However I do see that at DRN the two volunteers who have commented seem reluctant to make a judgement, suggesting that more discussion needs to happen at the article talk page; perhaps this lack of progress is frustrating Soham321. I have read through the Batla House Encounter section of the article talk (and briefly through the whole article talk page) and I don't find anything obviously objectionable by Sitush. Soham321 has on the other hand described Sitush as a liar which I would caution him/her not to repeat. I can't reach an opinion on Soham321's complaint myself because as Johnuniq points out above, there is no concise diff to demonstrate a specific problem. Kim Dent-Brown 08:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that a prerequisite for Dispute Resolution is an assumption of good faith between the interlocutors. That assumption of good faith was broken when the disputed edit (which was and is still pending in Dispute Resolution) was deleted in its entirety by Sitush and not only that the entire section of which the disputed edit was a part was also unilaterally deleted by Sitush. At that point of time it became a complaint about Sitush's behavior. The context in which i had accused Sitush of misrepresenting me was when he claimed i was also in favor of deleting the entire section ('Debates, Disputes, and Controversies') which he unilaterally deleted, when in fact i had explicitly opposed the deletion of this section (and i had given my reasons) when Sitush had asked me my opinion on whether it should be deleted in its entirety. I had in a separate discussion with another editor objected to a portion of text within this section ('Debates, Disputes, and Controversies') that had been added by this editor on the ground that it had no real biographical value but i had achieved WP:Consensus with that editor when he allowed me to make some modifications to his edits which i did to make them conform to WP:NPOV. Sitush does not believe in WP:Consensus as is evident when he unilaterally deleted the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section when a portion of this section had been taken up for Dispute Resolution. When the 'Batla House Encounter' edit (which was a part of the 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section) was in the WP:BLP, Sitush had modified it and made the edit inappropriate/inaccurate. This happened when Sitush violated the wikipedia guideline of Balance when he did not allow Singh's views on this issue to be included in the edit (see Balance in WP:NPOV). Sitush also violating the wikipedia guideline of Impartial Tone when he inserted a clearly biased and prejudiced and irresponsible quote of a journalist which is violating the Impartial Tone clause in a WP:BLP (See Impartial Tone in WP:NPOV). So the first point of dispute is that the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section which Sitush has unilaterally deleted when a portion of it was in Dispute Resolution needs to be re-added to the main article. Once we agree on this point, i can start giving the relevant diffs to show the multiple occasions on which Sitush has violated the Balance and Impartial Tone clauses in WP:NPOV in this WP:BLP.Soham321 (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The diffs for the removals that Soham refers to are:

• 1

Subsequently, I made this series of edits into which Soham interjected {{POV}} - Sitush (talk) 08:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I am giving the relevant diffs myself now. Soham321 (talk) 09:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• 1 This is the page that existed just before Sitush started removing the entire content in the 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section.
• Sitush unilaterally removes the 'Thackeray Family Controversy' edit in its entirety. This section was in the 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section.
• Sitush unilaterally removes the 'Batla House Encounter' edit which was in the 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section and which had been pending Dispute Resolution
• Sitush unilaterally removes the 'Views on RSS Section' edit which was also in the 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section.

Sitush keeps going like this till finally the entire section in 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' has been wiped out by him. My point is that Sitush violated WP:Consensus when he removed the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section because he had asked me whether i was of the opinion that this entire section needs to be removed, and i had said No. I gave my reason for this on the talk page which i now reproduce: The Controversy section should not be removed in its entirety because of two reasons. First, it contains important biographical information about Singh and second it involves issues of national interest. I refer in particular to the two edits on Singh's views on RSS and also the edit on the Thackeray family controversy.The Batla House Encounter edit should also remain in this WP:BLP because it remains a talking point in the Indian media with some continuing to claim that despite the verdict of a sessions court (meaning a court belonging to the subordinate judiciary-- implying that the verdict can be appealed in a higher court) the whole case of the prosecution remains dubious and 'full of holes'. For more on this, See for instance http://www.tehelka.com/flights-of-fancy-about-911-copycat/ . On the other hand, there are others who claim the encounter was genuine. For more on this, see http://www.tehelka.com/human-rights-activism-is-not-about-converting-the-so-called-terrorists-into-martyrs/. So, since this remains a talking point in the Indian media, Singh's view on this encounter can legitimately be put on his WP:BLP In this connection i would also like to invoke WP:Ownership with the relevant extract: "All Misplaced Pages content is edited collaboratively. No one, no matter how skilled, or of how high standing in the community, has the right to act as though he or she is the owner of a particular article." Soham321 (talk) 09:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Prior to his deletion of the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section, Sitush had modified an existing edit ('Batla House Encounter') which in my opinion was accurate and made it biased/prejudiced/inaccurate. This is the diff: Notice that Sitush violated the wikipedia guideline of Balance when he did not allow Singh's views on this issue to be included in the edit (see Balance in WP:NPOV). Sitush also violating the wikipedia guideline of Impartial Tone when he inserted a clearly biased and prejudiced and irresponsible quote of a journalist which is violating the Impartial Tone clause in a WP:BLP (See Impartial Tone in WP:NPOV).Soham321 (talk) 09:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute. Two DRN volunteers suggested further talk page discussion and from the outside looking in, it seems they're absolutely correct. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It is impossible to have further discussion if the disputed section in the main article is unilaterally removed along with several other related sections (the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section) in violation of wikipedia rules and guidelines of WP:Consensus and WP:Ownership. The whole thing becomes messy when this deletion takes place while the disputed section of the article is in Dispute Resolution. Also, a substantial amount of discussion on the talk page has taken place since the two wiki admins had asked for more discussion. The discussion on the talk page has concluded. Sitush has made it clear that he demands ownership of the article in violation of WP:Ownership and he is not interested in any consensus in violation of WP:Consensus. Soham321 (talk) 10:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I had given four reasons on the talk page as to why i had put a POV tag on the main article which is now consisting almost entirely of whatever Sitush has written ever since he has claimed ownership of this WP:BLP in violation of WP:Ownership and WP:Consensus. Sitush has made amends with respect to one reason, but the other three points still stand. They are:
• Violated the Balance and also the Impartial Tone clause in WP:NPOV in a WP:BLP by adding the following on the basis of hearsay and speculation in one solitary article: "Singh was directed by Sonia Gandhi to ensure the selection of Ajit Jogi as the Chief Minister for the new state and this Singh did, although Jogi had been critical of his style of politics and Singh had personally preferred not to see him installed to that office. While Singh managed to convince the majority of Congress Legislator Party members to back Ajit Jogi, the absence of Vidya Charan Shukla and his supporters at the meeting raised questions about the exercise of seeking consensus as Shukla was the other main contender for the post."
• Violated the Balance and also the Impartial Tone clause in WP:NPOV in a WP:BLP by adding a POV comment of the political commentator Aditi Phadnis. This comment has no place in a WP:BLP.
• Violated the Balance and Impartial Tone clause in WP:NPOV in a WP:BLP by giving freely speculative reasons for Digvijaya's defeat in the Madhya Pradesh elections in 2003 based on a solitary source.Soham321 (talk) 09:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I had a look at the diffs provided by Sitush, and they generally show the removal of tidbits from an "Other controversies" section in a BLP—almost always a good thing! While again trying to find a concrete example of a claimed problem, I noticed Talk:Digvijaya Singh#Edit Battleground with what appears to be an accurate summary of the problem (there are three groups of editors: neutral Wikipedians; politician supporters; politician haters). In that section, Sitush commented "I'd say around 80% of this article is undue weight and attempts at soapboxing" (the article at that time shows that is correct). Johnuniq (talk) 10:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The edit history of the main article as well as the talk page content will show that the 'Other controversies' section was added by User:A.amitkumar and i had myself told amit that these edits of his do not seem to have biographical value in my opinion. But amit disagreed with me. However, i achieved WP:Consensus with amit by making some modifications to his edits. My specific objection here is to the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section being unilaterally removed by Sitush when one of the sections in it was being disputed and was in fact pending Dispute Resolution. By doing this Sitush is claiming ownership of the article in my opinion in violation of WP:Ownership and he is also in violation of WP:Consensus. Soham321 (talk) 10:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:OWN does not work that way. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Soham, I think that one problem here is that you are frequently not understanding WP:OWN, WP:Consensus or the ramifications of WP:BLP, just as you did not understand WP:Vandalism. Please also note that I am still open to suggestions. I am trying to improve this article, I really am, but your constant accusations are wearing me down and, alas, are fairly typical of WP:SPA behaviour. - Sitush (talk) 10:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I still maintain that your deletion of the entire section of 'Batla House Encounter' together with your deletion of the related sections like 'Thackeray Family Controversy' and 'Views on RSS' i.e. all content within the section 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' at a time when the 'Batla House Encounter' edit was pending Dispute Resolution was violative of WP:Consensus and also WP:Ownership. As of now, the entire WP:BLP of the main article under consideration consists almost entirely of words written by you. I find this unacceptable and violative of WP:Ownership. Also, your prevarication when you falsely claimed on the talk page that I also wanted the removal of the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section on the talk page did nothing to enhance your credibility. Soham321 (talk) 11:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC) And oh, if you would really have been open to suggestions you would not have unilaterally deleted the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section when a portion of it was being disputed in the Dispute Resolution page. Soham321 (talk) 11:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Soham, you can huff, puff and maintain to your heart's content but even this last response of yours clearly demonstrates a misunderstanding of policy etc. Articles regularly have as few as one major contributor without being owned by that person; consensus is based on policy, not "votes"; BLP dictates that contentious material is removed if/until the issue is resolved; DRN is a voluntary process, although you have tended to see it as some sort of court of Misplaced Pages with your frequent premature desire to run there (examples include 1, 2, 3). - Sitush (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you agree that as of now the entire text in the main article under consideration consists of words written almost entirely by you? Soham321 (talk) 11:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but so what? It is developing quite well, I think, but needs more work. That, however, is a content issue rather than a behavioural one. - Sitush (talk) 11:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

@Soham321: The above still does not show a problem. Yes, Sitush removed a section, as noted in my last comment. But (briefly) what is wrong with that? Presumably you think some of the text should be retained—(briefly) what text and why? Johnuniq (talk) 11:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I object to the removal of the following three edits in particular by Sitush:
• 1 This is the 'Thackeray Family Controversy' edit
• This shows two versions of the 'Batla House Encounter' edit
• 'Views on RSS' edit

My reason is as follows: The 'Views on RSS' and 'Thackeray Family Controversy' edits involve issues of national interest. These sections would be present in any biography of Singh. The 'Thackeray Family Controversy' edit is significant because it involves Singh's attack on the regionalism and regional chauvinism articulated by a section of politicians in Maharashtra and the 'Views on RSS' edit is important because it involves Singh's criticism of the Hindu extremist group, the RSS, which has increasingly become more powerful in the political sphere and whose endorsed representative Narendra Modi is tipped to be the Prime Ministerial candidate of the main opposition in India in the next general elections in 2014. The 'Batla House Encounter' edit should also remain because it remains a talking point in the Indian media. In the latest issue of Tehelka magazine there are two articles containing two different views on this encounter. ( http://www.tehelka.com/flights-of-fancy-about-911-copycat/ and http://www.tehelka.com/human-rights-activism-is-not-about-converting-the-so-called-terrorists-into-martyrs/ ). Soham321 (talk) 12:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• DELETE to IMPROVE should happen only when no reliable sources are available. Editors cannot claim removal of controversial content due to content dispute (especially for content which is validly sourced). If you feel this is trivia then this is not the right way to handle trivia. Statements such as "this doesn't look good", or "this should not be here without reason" are certain traits that show ownership by the editor which is not correct. Also showing an editors past good behavior doesn't permit them to do things wrong now or prove what an editor does is correct(there is no dearth of first time offenders in WP), so lets keep that argument out of this topic.  A m i t  웃   17:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

DELETE to IMPROVE should happen only when no reliable sources are available - do you have a policy to support this statement? It is not uncommon to take such steps, especially in BLPs. - Sitush (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:PRESERVE talks about trying to correct/fix the problems before you revert and the policy about WP:BLPREMOVE talks about removing contentious content only for un-sourced or poorly sourced content. The controversy section was added to the BLP by me because of WP:WELLKNOWN to try to summarize the large sections of controversy into a single section and use only 1-2 lines per controversial statement the leader might have made instead of using such large sections for each controversial statements. Where is the policy that states sourced content should be removed for improvement, a trend or habit is not a policy either?  A m i t  웃   17:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say there was a policy for removal; I queried your statement, which read like it was based on policy. There has been lengthy discussion about the controversy stuff and in the absence of any consensus plus the burden of BLP and not wanting to be a random list of random allegations, I boldly took the lot out. As noted in a diff above, I'm not averse to considering proposals but none were forthcoming at the time and, indeed, Soham had indicated an unwillingness to provide any. I do wish that people could try not to write articles in list form and I do wish that they considered the relative importance of statements made in those lists etc ... but I've been around India-related articles for long enough now that I really should know that good writing is not usually going to happen. - Sitush (talk) 18:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I lost interest in interacting with Sitush after he started misrepresenting my position by making false statements. For instance, Sitush claimed that i was in favor of removing the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section when in fact i had opposed such a move. That was also when i had explained to him why the entire 'Debates, Disputes, and Controversies' section should not be removed as he was in favor of doing. For the diff, see here. Soham321 (talk) 18:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

If your only contribution to this discussion is to sing praises of Sitush, then it is not going to help anything here. I am leaving this topic even though the content under discussion was created by me. I have no issues with Sitush, and any consensus brought here or on DRN is fine by me. But try to keep the discussion pointed to the content and not the user.  A m i t  웃   18:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Sitush's three edits given as problem edits are well within policy, there is no reason to sanction him for them. Misplaced Pages biographies shouldn't be used to provide a platform for the "views" of its subjects. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

None of those three edits can be said to be examples of WP:Soap. Soham321 (talk) 02:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

My view is that a biographical article shouldn't be full of statements made by a person, shouldn't be what person X has to say about various issues, perhaps Digvijaya's impressions on Batala house case could be used in the article on Batala house. I don't see Sitush's edits, the three main ones as sanctionable. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I must say i am impressed by the level of interest you are taking in this case. On another note, could you confirm whether you have made a single edit to date in the main article under consideration? Soham321 (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Will someone please consider hatting the discussion here. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate infoboxes userboxes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I happened to find this page of an inactive editor which includes some inappropriate and rather useless infoboxes. The page links to File:Citroën DS 21 Pallas (1).jpg. I think the infoboxes should be deleted. Thank you. Δρ.Κ.  09:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The reference to the file of the Citroën is that people who link to the file can see the infoboxes when they click the page. Since some of the infoboxes are pornographic it doesn't look good for the project. Also MfD is a waste of time since the infoboxes are good candidates for CSD, although I am reluctant to classify them under vandalism G3. But thanks anyway. Δρ.Κ.  10:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you aware that Misplaced Pages is not censored? HiLo48 (talk) 11:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you aware that pornographic pictures and infoboxes userboxes are not normally acceptable on user pages? Δρ.Κ.  11:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

No. Is there a formal policy? HiLo48 (talk) 11:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Policy-wise I'm not sure. But there were repeated discussions about this userpage image, deleted since then. I think also that actual porn images are disabled by the software from appearing on a userpage since then. But I guess userboxes are exempt. Δρ.Κ.  11:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The only image on that user page is one of a machine gun. That's not pornographic. HiLo48 (talk) 11:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. But if you look a bit closer you will see

Say after me... No More Bush, phew! 250px

The redlinked 250px is the deleted link to the porn image. "Bush" is a double entendre and refers to this image. Δρ.Κ.  11:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on. That's ridiculous. It's as if you're going out of your way clicking on random links in the hope that you'll find something to complain about. HiLo48 (talk) 12:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

In what way is the example I gave you of a deleted pornographic picture on a userpage random? Also please leave the personal attacks out. Δρ.Κ.  12:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Also what infoboxes? There aren't any there - though there are some userboxes. GiantSnowman 11:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant userboxes as in this example. Δρ.Κ.  11:26, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Firstly, as HiLo48 points out, Misplaced Pages is NOTCENSORED. Secondly, unless you are saying that the image isn't on the bad image list (where it probably should be limiting it to appropriate pages), I don't see what your point might be. Are you claiming bad image list isn't working if the image is transcluded from an allowed page? If so, I'd be happy to help you put in a critical ticket on Bugzilla to fix that. Technical 13 (talk) 11:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Please see my reply to HiLo48 regarding porn images appearing on userpages and follow the link I gave them as an example. Δρ.Κ.  11:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The only image on that user page is one of a machine gun. That's not pornographic. HiLo48 (talk) 11:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I was not talking about the machine gun. Please see my reply to you above. Δρ.Κ.  11:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
    • See also these repeated and long discussions on Jimbo's talkpage. Δρ.Κ.  12:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
      • No, I won't go and see those pages. I've shown you the NOTCENSORED policy. Unless you can show us a policy that supports your view, you're wasting our time here. HiLo48 (talk) 12:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• That's your prerogative. But you can't speak on behalf of everyone. Talk about your own time, not "our time". Someone else may find this information useful. The userboxes have already been put at MfD. That's already a positive outcome and not such a waste of time. Δρ.Κ.  12:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
• As far as your talk about policy and NOTCENSORED, how would you like to see userboxes like this one in userpages across Misplaced Pages: User:Qcomplex5/boxes/UBX/random/jo. Do you think userboxes like this one are appropriate in an encyclopaedic project? Δρ.Κ.  12:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I have my own view about the suitability of these images but this is not the place to discuss their deletion or retention. Anyone with a view either way should go to today's MfD page to express it. This isn't an AN/I matter. Kim Dent-Brown 12:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree. I was simply responding to the questions posed. Δρ.Κ.  12:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Kim Dent-Brown, I don't disagree about the deletion part, but don't those images belong on MediaWiki:Bad image list anyways? Technical 13 (talk) 13:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Jason Gianginis

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an admin quickly check if this page has been deleted before? The reason I'm asking is because of suspicious dates (July 2013) in templates on the page, indicating a possible copy/paste recreation. The user has not been notified of a speedy deletion, which is why I could very well be wrong (in that case apologies to you, Jason Gianginis). The "website" link on the article Jason Gianginis links to a Facebook page which has been deleted. I checked some of the titles on IMDB but can't find a "Jason Gianginis" in any of them, nor is there a "Jason Gianginis" found with IMDB search. Ginsuloft (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

If it's been deleted before, it was at a different title, as there's no deleted revisions of the page. (Also, next time you might want to post at WP:AN as this isn't really an "incident". ) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I did think of posting at AN first, but the page notice says: "This noticeboard is for issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest." with the bold/italics and red text. Ginsuloft (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:AIV

Could we please have an administrator take a look at WP:AIV? It is backlogged and reports have been left without action for several hours. Thomas.W 15:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Dimension10 and page moves

Dimension10 (talk · contribs) pretty much took it on themselves to re-arrange the pages that used to be Standard Model and Standard Model (mathematical formulation). I created a thread at WT:PHYS about this, and asked them to stop moving things left and right so I can fix the mess, and make sure the old links point to the intended articles, but they just won't stop. Take a look at their move history to see the damn mess they left behind. Could an admin please block them for the moment, until they agree to stop moving things left and right and let the discussion of WT:PHYS come to it's conclusion? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Headbomb There is no mess. The mess only started after you started making some of the redirects redirect to Introduction to the standard model, and some to The standard model. It's clear that you' are the one messing up everything here, using vulgarities randomly, making a big fuss about almost nothing, and wanting the article's nameing conventions to be against all the other articles', just because YOU can't comprehend technical, mathematical, details, and YOU don't want the technical articles to be the main article? . . . Dimension10 (talk) 15:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC) .

Could you please stop it with the personal attacks? I fully comprehend the technical details involved and the only purpose of the discussion on WT:PHYS is about the names of the articles, how to best deal with them, make sure we direct the readers where we actually mean to, and all that jazz. Your half a million moves makes it impossible to have this conversation about, you break a bunch of links in existing articles, and behave like a bull in a China shop. It's clear you won't be stopping anytime soon, and you need to be blocked so your disruption stops and so that people can have a discussion about things without pulling their own hair trying to figure out which article is which. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Look who'se talking (For others, please check the original version of this section.) . Dimension10 (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

You must be doing something wrong because even this page (WP:ANI) became one big mess when you edited it. Are you using some non-standard software when editing? Thomas.W 15:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing happened to the standard model articles . Dimension10 (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• I've fixed the formatting issue on this page, the result of {{curly brackets}} rather than ]. When a move is opposed like this, the correct thing to do is to revert to the names before the move, and then come to a consensus about what the page names should be. Indeed, major name changes like this should optimally be discussed at WP:RM or the talk page or the project page first. I think an admin will need to help sort out the moves now, lots of redirects got re-edited. I'm afraid I can't help, I need to go offline in 5 minutes, and I don't want to leave it half done. I don't think any blocks are needed at this time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm uninvolved in this, but a few things strike me as problematic with Dimension10. The user page User:Dimension10 is using a protected template and adds, "If you edit it (the user page), the user will immediately die, and their ghost will appear in your house and kill you." On the talk page, the controversial moves of other pages have been brought up at User_talk:Dimension10#Controversial_moves. The Townsend string theory matter alone is a problem. Dimension10 has clear problems with this topic area and actually attacks editors when actions do not go their way, even if their claims are proven false. Even stating, "Stupid adminstrators who don't know string theory want to delete." in relation to the Townsend string theory page. These moves were a bad idea and should not have been done without consensus. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention things like Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:00, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Problems with this topic? HUH?! If you can't stand a joke (the kill you thing), I think your comment is pointless . And the move was because the admins refused to check the refs, and they were happy with the move . Dimension10 (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm also uninvolved, but most of the moves seem to be for the sake of personal preference, or "potential spelling mistakes". For example, it's really unlikely that someone will misspell "The Stranded Model" for "The standard model"...

I agree with everything Headbomb et al said. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 16:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The ""Stranded Model"" page was however, really due to a spelling mistake , believe it or not . And I don't think that "Stranded Model" can be a "personal preferecence" s . Dimension10 (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

There are lots of editors who feel that jokes about murdering editors who comment on a talk page are in bad taste. But YMMV. As for the moves... you may have a strong case for your version, you might not. But clearly the moves have been disputed here - so now they need to be reverted until a discussion can be had and consensus can form. I do find it troubling that your first response when someone questions your moves is not "Well, I moved Standard Model because of reasons, and then moved Standard Model (mathematical formulation) because of these reasons, and this is why I think it is better that way..." and so on - Your first response was to attack Headbomb instead. You need to dial it back a bit, Dimension10. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I think nobody realised it's about Pauli Villar ghosts and critical dimensions getting rid of them ? I.e. Editing my User page = Not accepting the current state of the User page "Dimension10" = Not accepting 10 dimensions = Being plagued/Haunted by Pauli-Villar ghost statesj. You need to know a bit of string theory to understand, but it's a funny joke, and it's very uentertaining . : ) Dimension10 (talk) 01:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Can we remove move permission from someone? That would deal with the situation rather effectively. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

And I still don't see what I've done ? Dimension10 (talk) 01:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

As an aside, @Dimension10: please can you advise how/why/what re:your typing? The formatting and spacing is...bizarre, to say the least. GiantSnowman 16:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to me . Dimension10 (talk) 02:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And I suppose vulgarities in the titles, randomly character assassinating, causing edit wars, ignoring move reasons purposely, but instead calling me a vandal, isn't personal attacks, but moving pages as to agree with other pages is?

On fixing the mess

In parallel to the above stuff, any admin that wants to clean up the mess (aka restore to the pre-move status quo) would have to

• Move Introduction to the Standard Model → Standard Model
• Move The standard model → Standard Model (mathematical formulation)

Make sure the following redirects point to Standard Model (or will, after bots deal with double redirects)

• Particle physics standard model
• Standard model (basic details)
• Standard Model of particle physics
• Standard Model of Particle Physics
• Standard model of the universe
• The Standard model
• The Standard Model
• The Standard Model of Particle Physics

Make sure the following redirects point to Standard Model (mathematical formulation) (or will, after bots deal with double redirects)

• Mathematical formulation of the Standard Model
• SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1)
• SU(3)XSU(2)XU(1)
• Standard model (details)
• Standard model (technical details)

Then delete the following redirect

• Mathematical formulation of the Standard Model)
• Standard+Model
• The Stranded Model

Then WP:PHYS can have its discussion about what titles to settle on. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I think I got it all. Anything else I need to do? NW (Talk) 17:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

As far as i'm aware, that covers everything that needs to be done concerning article moves at this point. Things may change after the discussion at WT:PHYS, but that can be handled through the usual channels of {{move request}} and similar. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Other Articles, like the intro to m-theory, and the intro to GR, and a few other articles, have the technical pages as main, and the non-technical as the "Introduction to the ... " . Dimension10 (talk) 02:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

That's nice, but irrelevant. You broke a fair number of pages and redirects with your actions, which clearly did not have consensus. For such an action in the future, please attempt to gather it ahead of time. There's a reason things were as they were before your actions, and while it may not be accepted by all, there was no need to change it without discussion. And could you please indent your replies properly? NW (Talk) 02:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Use of images as RS

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion (or the attempt at it) has been going on for some time now at Haredi Judaism. It relates to additions made by a novice editor User:Jonathan.bluestein. I wish to bring to attention at this point only one issue: That of using images as RS. Is there ever a circumstance when images can be used to cite text? If so, please can someone confirm when they can be used.

Please see Talk:Haredi Judaism#Using images as RS. I had removed the image of the swimming pool which was being used as a reference. It was re-addedby User:Jonathan.bluestein until he removed it himself: .

Now he insists on using another image as a source: . I had removed it () and he has just re-added it () after replying to my post at talk. Chesdovi (talk) 16:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi. My name's Jonathan Bluestein. I strongly suggest reading the Talk page on Haredi Judaism, to get a sense of what has been going on there as of late, and what Chesdovi has been up to. He has been making tremendous efforts to delete mass amounts of material off that article. As for his claims in this particular discussion:

First image - unlike what he wrote, it was not removed. The use of it as reference has been removed.

Second image - in my opinion, a valid source. Addresses the subject matter. Has copyrights. Was shot at a relevant location and at a relevant time to the subject being discussed. Speaks for itself as proof of a certain claim made in the article's text.

Jonathan.bluestein (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

This is not the proper noticeboard for this discussion. Try over in WP:RS/N instead. Mangoe (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Thinking this is the incorrect forum for this discussion, perhaps WP:RS/N and Mangoe suggested or WP:DRN? Anyways, I'm requesting this be closed (since I'm now "involved" or I would have done it myself). Technical 13 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks/ Chesdovi (talk) 17:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

User:CJK comparing academics to 9/11 "doubters"

User:CJK seems to consider a Misplaced Pages talk page an appropriate arena to compare academics who have expressed doubts as to the guilt of Alger Hiss to "9/11 doubters". Can I ask that he be topic-banned from the subject matter until such time as he is prepared to adhere to expected talk-page standards, and to not violate WP:BLP policy in future. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:39, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Related reading (Arbitration request filed by CJK four weeks ago) for anyone who wants to get a bit of a background on this. NW (Talk) 17:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful link, NW. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

CJK does exactly the same thing again: . AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

A topic ban might be helpful here. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Ugh, what an awful comment to make. I support the topic ban on CJK as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:45, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Repeat offender

User:Jonathan.bluestein has consistently been re-adding citations to Hebrew Misplaced Pages pages, despite this being not in line with policy. He has been told umpteen times about this at talk (and here) and on edit summaries.

Yet his latest edit has re-added them:

---/ Chesdovi (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

"Offender"... Nice one, you're outdoing yourself :-D I'd like to request the moderators and editors to go through the lengthy talk page for Haredi Judaism to understand the context of what's going on. Chesdovi and I have been running an 'Edit War' for quite a while now, and I gather one needs to understand the reasons and background before making a decision on how to intervene (the entire conflict is well documented on the aforementioned talk page). Jonathan.bluestein (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm finding this a bit hard to decode. Bluestein does seem to me to have some policy issues and is probably too reliant on his local knowledge of the Israeli scene; on the other hand it seems possible that Chesdovi's perspective is a bit, well, colored. I am tempted to conclude that Bluestein's views may be correct but that he is having trouble proving them according to our standards. There surely must be other editors who do read Hebrew (which I do not) who could mediate this, but it seems quite problematic to have the content of what is after all a pretty important Judaism/Israeli topic determined by an edit war between only two people. Mangoe (talk) 18:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages is not a source for Misplaced Pages. The sourcing is bad enough already, with a ton of bare URLs, commentary in the notes, lengthy quotes, doubtful sources, etc. I've removed a few of the more egregious citations. Drmies (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Drmies do you read and understand Hebrew? Caden 19:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I sure don't! Good thing that's not important here. Drmies (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Drmies - you've deleted a few ref/cite that were from Jewish Halacha. It is a primary source for ALL religious Jews (not just Haredim), and for many Haredim it's more important than even the Old Testament. Knowledge of Hebrew is required with regard to that last edit you made, because there were culturally-bound and complex Hebrew quotes there. Please refer to the talk page if you wish to discuss this. Other edits you made I agreed and went along with. Jonathan.bluestein (talk) 19:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
        • I can give it to you in a couple of languages (Hebrew not included), here and on the talk page, but my edit summary is quite clear, I believe. This is original research. What you need are reliable sources that provide an interpretation of sacred text as it applies to the particular denomination under discussion. No knowledge of Hebrew is required; indeed, if knowledge of Hebrew were required it would only prove my point. See WP:PRIMARY. Drmies (talk) 20:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
• The editor also appears to be on 4RR today. I have left a warning rather than blocking, but am going to look at the article now and will revert back to the main version if necessary. Black Kite (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
• The usual way of handling such sources in almost all contexts is to give the English version in the article, preferably from a standard translation that can be cited as such, and then the original language source in parentheses or as a footnote. Since this is the English WP, it is always necessary to give an English translation. I can't think it a good idea to take comment on the sources only from Rabbis speaking or posting on the internet, but from reliable conventionally published sources as well. (& I think some Haredi commentary is in fact published in English) One key reason for this is that not all groups use the internet, so their views will not be included)

More generally: there is a difficulty in all articles like this of giving representative views--there are as many interpretations as there are religious Jews, and to say that a particular publication is the mainstream source is extremely difficult. It's particularly difficult giving a reason for a custom, because I think sources typically give as many different reasons as possible, and it is not easy to pick one to identify as the usual reason. There is an inevitable tendency to give the views of the authorities whose opinions one personally follows, and those like myself not fully literate in the tradition may not be able to tell this. There is a particular danger especially for those outside the tradition of picking what seems the most "quotable" comments, which can mean the ones that one thinks illustrates the weird or picturesque or extreme behavior of others. (and this can be a problem if one relies on English journalistic sources).

Certainly, however, it is wrong to refer to the Hebrew WP as an authority; it's no more authoritative than we are. Those who wish to see it can follow the usual interwiki links. There is however a way of giving WP:Soft redirects. The guideline currently says those to other language WPs should be avoided "because they will generally be unhelpful to English-language readers." The key word here is "generally"--I think there will be reasonable exceptions. But I do not think we ever refer in text or a reference to another WP.

I think however it is reckless to remove or edit material in a language one does not understand, and I think it abusive to edit--especially to edit sensitive material--on a subject or a culture or subject one does not know or where one cannot read the sources. I've made formatting edits on such material, and sometimes corrected English grammar, or copy-pasted a name or a title, but beyond that it's risky doing even what seems like obvious clarifications. Yet how can we leave such editing to the supporters, or the opponents, or a tug of war between the two? The only solution is to rely upon neutral scholarship, but it isn;t necessarily easy to find scholarship that everyone regards as neutral. DGG ( talk ) 22:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I have no particular opinion on the specific issue here, but I do read Hebrew. It's late now, but tomorrow I could review these challenged edits and offer an opinion. At a first glance, however, it appears that the only use made by Jonathan Bluestein of Hebrew Misplaced Pages is to link to a photo. If that is the only cross-wiki link, there will surely be a way (through Commons, possibly) to use this photo legitimately in the article. RolandR (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

If I may be so bold, I believe that this may belong at DRN. MM (Report findings) 11:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Barlas

I am once again reporting Ancientsteppe (talk · contribs). His edits in the above mentioned article are contraproductive. This comment on the talkpage proves that he is not familiar with WP:RS or other basic rules of Misplaced Pages. This is not a matter of scholarly dispute, but about a user who is distorting academic sources and is pushing for his own POV - without being able to privide a single reliable source. --Lysozym (talk) 20:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

No reaction? --Lysozym (talk) 20:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Insults from Guardian of the Rings

Starting edit wars and vandalizing pages wasn't enough for User:Guardian of the Rings, so now he's resorting to insults. This really makes it impossible for me to communicate in any meaningful way with him, no matter the subject you can't discuss anything with someone who calls you a "NEFARIOUS IDIOT" .--Nero the second (talk) 21:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Now he's doing a revert war in my own talk page. Somebody should talk to this guy.--Nero the second (talk) 21:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Address each and every one of the issues raised in my refactored section here, and I will relent from your talk page. You are not going to get by here by running to mama (i.e. AN/I) crying in the manner you have done so far; that's not how AN/I is supposed to function. GotR 21:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Note that he doesn't stop reverting in my talk page even after I pointed to WP:OWNTALK.--Nero the second (talk) 21:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That's stunningly hypocritical of you, isn't it? Now that least of all, you have received my talkback notification, which has served its purpose (I do not know if you use the watchlist), get on with my points. GotR 21:46, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, first, Nero the second is right about WP:OWNTALK, if they want to remove the discussion they are free to do so. Please stop re-adding it. In the interests of trying to resolve this, lets discuss the issue here, rather then edit warring on user talk pages. Second, no one has vandalized anything, accusations of vandalism just add heat to the fire, and don't help resolve a dispute. Monty₈₄₅ 21:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have nothing to say on the content dispute underlying this, but GotR: calling someone a "NEFARIOUS IDIOT" (caps yours) is a personal attack, and that kind of behaviour must cease. Also, any editor is free to remove posts from their own talk page; this is taken to mean they have read the message. Do not re-add messages to talk pages of users who have asked you not to. Basalisk ⁄_berate 21:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Compare this and this. The first revert could be explained by sloppy editing, but the second one is vandalism.--Nero the second (talk) 21:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I note from the "stunningly hypocritical" remark that appeals to avoid personal attacks have fallen on deaf ears. And in any case, the accusation is false, I never reverted GotR when he deleted my messages from his user page.--Nero the second (talk) 21:55, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I see no reason to conclude it is vandalism. For it to be vandalism, the edit must be made in bad faith, with a desire to harm the encyclopedia. It looks like you had an edit war, that happened to include an error. Again, I'm asking you to stop calling it vandalism. If the two of you stop antagonizing each other, perhaps we can get to the underlying issue, and resolve it, rather then having to block one of you or the other. Monty₈₄₅ 21:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No comment on anything else, since it's just repeating, but neither of those is vandalism. The edit messed up the page, but I doubt it was done intentionally. You should read WP:VAND#NOT. Jauersock/_dude. 21:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Back to the underlying editing, Nero the second: Do you have an objection to the edit Guardian of the Rings was trying to make, or only to the version of the page that included the syntax error which messed up the infobox? Monty₈₄₅ 22:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Only with the syntax error, the current version of that page is fine. In fact the core issue was the systematic removal of coordinates and footnotes from a template.--Nero the second (talk) 22:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, well in the future, I would strongly recommend that when you dispute only a part of an edit, it really helps to manually undo only that part that you object to. It helps to get a discussion started, and is generally not as likely to offend the person being reverted as a summary revert of the whole edit. Calling another one of the edits botched, and including their name probably didn't help anything. That doesn't excuse the escalation by Guardian of the Rings to calling you nefarious, but it does help to understand how it got there. Reverting an editor across multiple articles is also likely to agitate them. If there is an issue with multiple edits, it can save a lot of grief to go and talk about it first, and certainly before additional reverts. Monty₈₄₅ 22:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

In which, as I will quote myself, you, Mr. Emperor, had a knowingly false or ignorant edit summary (copied from here): On at least three articles, you falsely claimed "WP:EANP, no valid reason for reverting", when my previous summary explains clearly the loss of information imparted by Underlying lk in his previous edits. GotR 22:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

There you go, just minutes after his avalanche of edit-summary insults he's back to being mocking and condescending (just now).--Nero the second (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Stop dodging my legitimate concerns about your actions. Remember Eleanor Roosevelt's old saying: "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people". And I'll leave it to others (certainly not you), to decide to what extent you are rabble-rousing. GotR 22:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

And I'll leave it to others to decide to what extent such messages are antagonizing, and to what extent they make a normal discussion with this guy even conceivable.--Nero the second (talk) 22:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

There you go again. It is indisputable that you have zero will to discuss the three edits in question. We'll see if this post turns into a highly-effective boomerang. GotR 23:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I had suspended any edits in the hope that you could be convinced to behave respectfully towards others, and that a conclusion agreeable to both parties could be found, but if anything your behaviour has worsened since this discussion was created. Now you make blatantly false accusations of hypocrisy, ignorance, and whatnot, and more in general (as can be seen from messages here) you demonstrate zero goodwill. You are making it impossible to discuss anything.--Nero the second (talk) 23:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I would think an emperor's, as nearly all politicians', promises would be backfired upon. One should not forget Emperor Nero II is at three reverts, and that he has done a partial revert as well. Sigh...you have my word that I will fulfil this vow, until either there is SNOWball momentum against Nero II's version at TFD, or that discussion closes in favour of the longstanding version. GotR 01:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Persistant disruptive edits on articles labeled "LGBT People from Italy"

Three months ago, the same user began to make systematic disruptive edits from different computers on Benvenuto Cellini, Poliziano, Torquato Tasso and Lucio Dalla among others.

The different IPs used by this person, probably Guido Lonchile (talk · contribs), are, for the more recent ones :

217.203.129.136 (talk · contribs), 95.74.248.0 (talk · contribs) and 109.52.145.74 (talk · contribs) for Torquato Tasso

217.203.139.73 (talk · contribs), 95.75.19.58 (talk · contribs)and 109.52.145.74 (talk · contribs) for Benvenuto Cellini

95.74.240.181 (talk · contribs), 217.203.139.73 (talk · contribs), 109.54.162.138 (talk · contribs) and B. River (talk · contribs), specifically created on this purpose for Poliziano.

Isn't it possible to block that person ? Frimoussou (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The pages in question are currently semi-protected, but I think a rangeblock might be a good idea in this situation. I've never done one before, but it looks like 217.203.129.136/20, 95.74.240.0/20, and 109.52.145.74/14 would be the ranges, I think. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

@Mark Arsten: I get 95.74.240.0/20, but that does not include 95.75.19.58. If that one is included it puts us into a range that is bigger than we are allowed to block. That IP could be blocked individually. The range 09.52.145.74/14 - I got the same result, but this tool shows someone is making useful edits on classical music articles from that same range so it would be inappropriate to block it imo. The third range is 217.203.129.136/20 (I got the same result as you did). I did not see anyone else editing recently on that range. I am not sure the blocks will be needed if the articles are semi protected so I will leave it up to you to decide. -- Diannaa (talk) 04:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I blocked the 95.74.240.0/20 and 217.203.129.136/20 ranges, thanks for your help! Mark Arsten (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Haldrik

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello. So, maybe someone should take a look at this page diff here, probably sooner than later: . Haldrik (talk · contribs) has long been an advocate of some pet theories involving dwarfs in Norse mythology as vampire-like beings (human sized with pale skin and dark hair and an associated with matters deathly). To promote this notion, he's constructed a big web of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR that he will unrelentingly re-add to the article, often without reference. He's been repeatedly called out on it at the talk page currently at Talk:Dwarf (Norse mythology) for years by several users outside of myself. It appears that over time he's decided to simply slide into anonymous IP mode (this is probably him) and not bother with the talk page, even when asked to explain himself. Finally, once work began on the article again when the Tolkienism of "dwarves" vs. popular usage of "dwarfs" came to fore, he's flipped out and just replaced the redirect with a rant against me. You're welcome to peruse the appropriate talk pages. I've rewritten many related articles to WP:GA specs over the years. This is a strange case that has resulted in a fair amount of wasted time better spent elsewhere. I've been trying to build off an appropriately referenced, scholarly core, but with some guy inserting this stuff, it isn't getting very far from that. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I've just warned Haldrik for attacking you in article-space and will block him if he does so again. The IP has been warned for edit warring, so I'll block if it reverts again. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Looks like he just pasted the attack here instead: . :bloodofox: (talk) 01:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I've just given him some advice on my talk page, hopefully he'll take it. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And he didn't. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Legal threats by Justme78783

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Looking over recent edits at Albania I noticed that Justme78783 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) while edit-warring also issued a legal threat: Undid revision 567295305 by Antidiskriminator (talk) Please refrain from propaganda , otherwise administrative and legal actions will be initiated . Thank you. I ask that some action be taken regarding the legal threat per NLT. Δρ.Κ.  02:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Blocked indef, clear cut here. Secret 02:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Secret. Δρ.Κ.  02:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

23.30.62.134 - The Color Run revisions

The IP address 23.30.62.134 is being used anonymously, but based upon contribution history appears to be used by an employeee of The Color Run LLC to make changes to the page The Color Run.

I have added criticism of The Color Run LLC to the page and this has been removed several times with no explanation or debate to validity of the criticism. The criticism is factual, impartial and is referenced.

I would suggest that the user 23.30.62.134 is blocked until they agree to comply with Misplaced Pages policy, particularly the editing of a page for self-promotion usage.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jez Bridges (talk • contribs) 03:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Two things: they've done it twice, and if they keep doing it you can report them at WP:AIV. Second, this is a reliable source? Drmies (talk) 03:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
  • First point - thanks, if it continues I'll go there. Second point - I understand your reservations given the blog's appearance, but when I dug deeper into the matter, there is evidence to corroborate the 70% - 20% - 10% comment. The Color Run has announced via social media commentary (scroll down a bit, use find command for 'profit') that they contribute approximately 10% of their profits to a nominated charity. Further to that, I found that the Cairns Hillbilly blog is pretty solid in calling things before the mainstream news catches on. Jez Bridges (talk) 03:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Drmies is sometimes (though not always) dry and restrained in his commentary. That is not a reliable source and should not be used on Misplaced Pages. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, I thought it may be borderline. I tracked down a couple of news articles that discuss charity contribution and have cited them instead. As it so happens, the amounts cited in the news articles are way below 10%, which I guess is harsher criticism. No discussion of operating costs and held back profit so I just removed that piece of discussion. Jez Bridges (talk) 04:18, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Some blogs are better than others for off-Misplaced Pages reading and enjoyment. But self-published blogs are never, ever a reliable source for anything whatsoever on Misplaced Pages, except for the personal opinions of the blogger. For any factual assertions, we need reliable sources with professional editorial control and an established reputation for fact checking and error correction. 99.9% of blogs fail that test. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Will keep it in mind in the future. Jez Bridges (talk) 04:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The Sacramento Bee source quotes random uninformed people on the street who assumed that it was a charity event. The Syracuse.com source talks about some people criticicizing the event, but does not identify the people, characterize them, or quote them. This seems like thin soup to me. Why should a profit making business be criticized on Misplaced Pages because some random or unidentified people think they probably ought to donate more money to charity than they actually do? Cullen Let's discuss it 04:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Both articles cite figures in terms of donations in the same region (2-3% of total revenue). That is the point being cited. As far as general criticism of the event - I could cite half a dozen more articles that cover similar points (people being surprised at for-profit status) but I stuck to articles that were talking about how much was being donated. Either way, there is criticism of the event by reputable sources. Jez Bridges (talk) 04:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Request to enforce NOR

This report does not concern a content dispute. This report concerns a pattern of long-term disruption of the March Against Monsanto article involving multiple editors restoring the same or similar sources in violation of our policy against no original research. These editors have attempted to impose a local consensus at March Against Monsanto in violation of our primary site-wide policy on WP:NOR and the typical application of FRINGE.

The "March Against Monsanto" is an international protest movement that demonstrated on May 25, 2013. The relevant policy and guidelines state that reliable sources about the protest may be used judiciously, however, these editors are adding off-topic sources from GMO articles that were published before the protests ever occurred and about a subject that has nothing to do with the protests or the reliable secondary sources about the protests.

The relevant NOR policy is very clear: "...you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented...Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context...precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published on Misplaced Pages."

Similarly, WP:FRINGE states: "...the purpose of Misplaced Pages is not to offer originally synthesized prose "debunking" notable ideas which the scientific community may consider to be absurd or unworthy. Criticisms of fringe theories should be reported on relative to the visibility, notability, and reliability of the sources that do the criticizing."

Certain editors, namely A13ean, Arc de Ciel, Thargor Orlando, SpectraValor, North8000, and Tryptofish, have all engaged in similar editing behavior between May and August, repeatedly adding in the same or similar content after being repeatedly asked to stop doing this on the talk page and on their user pages.

Here is a list of article diffs showing this behavior:

16:38, 31 May

• A13ean (talk · contribs);
  • Removes wording sourced to the Associated Press article about the protest and according to his own edit summary, "expand with cites from Genetically modified food", a completely different article. A13ean then rewrites and replaces the AP source with off-topic citations to AAAS (2012), World Health Organization (2012), Preston (2011), National Academies Press (2004), Winter & Gallego (2006), Jaffee (Feb. 7, 2013), Ronald (2011), Miller (2009), Chang (2012).

07:07, 1 June

• Arc de Ciel (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean's off-topic citations from the GMO article

18:53, 12 June

• Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs)
  • Restores and adds to A13ean's off-topic citations from the GMO article

22:07, 13 June

• Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs)
  • Restores and adds to A13ean's off-topic citations from the GMO article

13:20, 18 June

• Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs)
  • Restores and adds to A13ean's off-topic citations from the GMO article

02:03, 19 July

• SpectraValor (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean's off-topic citations

13:35, 19 July

• Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs)
  • Restores and adds to A13ean's off-topic citations from the GMO article

01:07, 20 July

• North8000 (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

19:37, 20 July

• Tryptofish (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

16:10, 23 July

• Tryptofish (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

18:30, 27 July

• Tryptofish (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

23:22, 28 July

• North8000 (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

17:56, 4 August

• Tryptofish (talk · contribs)
  • Restores A13ean and Thargor Orlando's off-topic citations from the GMO article

When the situation is politely explained to them, they ignore the explanation and keep adding the sources, all the while claiming that no explanation has ever been offered (WP:IDHT) When shown the NOR policy and asked why they keep adding these sources when we have perfectly on-topic, secondary sources about the subject, they avoid answering the question.

User:Petrarchan47 deserves credit for being the first editor to pick up on these overt policy violations. As Petrarchan47 has observed, "this article is about the protest, and concerns behind it."

I am happy to answer any questions as time permits. I have filed this report here instead of the WP:NOR/N board because that board is basically dead and receives very little traffic. Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

All editors notified of this report. Viriditas (talk) 07:01, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment (involved editor) This complaint is a continuation of the very lengthy thread above on this topic, and demonstrates the bad faith problems discussed there. Viriditas seems unable to accept that there can be a genuine disagreement between editors on whether/how this article is subject to WP:FRINGE guidance (by which it might be argued the addition of mainstream scientific views could be justified), or whether it should focus exclusively on the march (in which case they would not). Rather than try and achieve consensus we are seeing battles between some dug-in editors and Viriditas' complaint above (taking-in some experienced editors) of "a pattern of long-term disruption" and "overt policy violations" (while describing his own "side" as "polite" and deserving of credit) is just more of this. Each 'side' need to acknowledge the reasonableness of the other, assume good faith, and work towards a consensus. Alexbrn 07:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This isn't about a content dispute, this is about a long-term pattern of policy violation, apparent tag team editing, and behavioral disruption centering on WP:IDHT, which you have adequately demonstrated in your response, as you know very well that the mainstream scientific opinion has been represented by the AP and other sources since the beginning. There is absolutely no justification to continue violating our policy on NOR and it needs to stop. I can provide diff after diff of the above editors violating consensus after consensus, pretending discussions never took place and deliberately adding the same content over and over again after multiple discussions said otherwise. This is willful and deliberate disruption. Viriditas (talk) 07:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
    • QED Alexbrn 07:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't see were Viriditas commented about conduct. The subject of this ANI seems to be purely content-based. If you would like to discuss whether editors are being nice or not, this wouldn't seem the place. This type of off-topic comment tends to dilute, confuse and divert the discussion. petrarchan47tc 07:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And by "content" I'm referring to the diffs showing repeated addition of OR which seems a response to any questioning of GMO safety. But such a response isn't proper in my understanding of how to build a wiki article. See the changes I made by this comparison of diffs, where I order the issues in a common sense flow, and put the introduction the first section at the top (it was hidden at the bottom for some reason - and is again). Now after a few edits between User:Arzel, User:Tryptofish and User:Thargor Orlando, it looks like this. The information about MAM founder is missing mention (again) that she is a first time activist, as if to make her less sympathetic, the GMO controversy supersedes all else, and the non-MAM-related, pro-GMO science was added back, among other unexplained changes. Another recurring OR has been, from the early days of the article, a focus on attacking the well-sourced claim that the march had 2 million attendees. Yesterday the 2 million number was removed for a bogus reason, leaving only "200,000" - based on one single newspaper article which was written while the protest was still taking place. The number matches the estimated turnout in coverage prior to the march. Details here. It seems like vandalism of an article to me. petrarchan47tc 08:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you read Viriditas's comment - especially the opening words? FWIW, I think this is a content dispute that Viriditas is trying to address via behaviour complaints (since that is how he sees it - incorrectly in my view). And this would be the right forum for that. Alexbrn 08:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Semantics. The content and conduct are married in this case. petrarchan47tc 08:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• I think this raises an interesting question. Is it impossible for this article to be neutral as reliable sources have not discussed it in sufficient detail? Is the very act of making this article neutral only possible through WP:OR by linking standard sourced statements of the scientific mainstream (or "Pro-GMO science" as Petra appears to call it, as though you can choose your "science") to the specific march? If that is the case, it should be deleted as sources have not discussed the topic in sufficient detail for it to be neutrally discussed on wikipedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

considering this, I've put the article up for deletion Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/March Against Monsanto (2nd nomination). IRWolfie- (talk) 09:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I have raised no such question, and if anyone needed a working example of the exact kind of intentional disruption that has been going on here since May, IRWolfie's comment above is the epitome of the kind of disruption I've been describing. The article has never had a neutrality problem, has had numerous reliable sources about the protest indicating the scientific consensus, and yet, IRWolfie has constructed yet another one of his signature straw men to knock down yet again, this time nominating the article for deletion based on a deletion rationale that has no basis in reality. If you are looking for a good example of disruption on Misplaced Pages, please feel free to use this example, as I can think of no better one to illustrate the problem. Viriditas (talk) 09:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Not only is this a content dispute which Viriditas is trying to pretend is a behavioral one, but the entire foundation of their complaint / edit warring against everybody including the mediator-types is faulty, and a misreading of policy. In essence they are claiming that inclusion of a source that does not address the topic of the article is "OR" and mis-behavior if used. North8000 (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
• Content dispute. GregJackP Boomer! 11:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
• While I can't say I am very happy to see this here, it appears to me that Viriditas' diffs make a strong case. Anyone willing to examine them with NPOV may be edified by his points. Jusdafax 14:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
• It should be noted that Viriditas has been blocked for three months for his continued conduct at the article. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• I am at a conference and don't have the opportunity to respond at length. However, I would point out that WP:FRINGE states "Articles which cover controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail should document (with reliable sources) the current level of their acceptance among the relevant academic community." The safety of GMOs is a controversial subject. What I added was a single sentence supported with a number of reliable sources on the mainstream view of the safety of GMO foodstuffs. The line I used was a long-standing one at the GMO safety page. There's plenty of reasonable objections that could be raised about this change, but broadly accusing myself and other editors of paid editing, POV pushing, meatpuppetry, etc, is not a reasonable objection.

I reiterate my statement in the previous ANI thread: I do not have a conflict of interest in this matter; I have not communicated with any other editor on this subject off-wiki; I will gladly prove my identity to any admin whom I trust not dox me. a13ean (talk) 14:48, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BOOMERANG. As Thargor noted just above, Viriditas has been blocked for three months. I urge uninvolved users to look at my talk page, and at the blocking administrator's excellent rationale on Viriditas' talk, for the reasons. (I was the editor who asked the administrator to examine the situation.) This ANI thread is a bogus attempt to use ANI to gain the upper hand in a content dispute, and the allegations of WP:IDHT actually apply to Viriditas and some of the few editors who are defending him. The claims of tag-teaming are without substance. Rather, the fact that multiple editors agree about reverting those edits merely demonstrates that there is some consensus against those edits, and the repeated reversions would not occur if Viriditas and Petrachan were not repeatedly adding them back.
• Let's get specific about this claim of WP:OR. The sentence in question is at March Against Monsanto#GMO controversy, and it reads: "There is a broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater health risk than conventional food.", followed by a long series of inline citations. The sentence comes from Genetically modified food controversies, where a content RfC now in progress is trending strongly in the direction that the sentence is reliably sourced and correctly written. The argument that Viriditas has made at the MAM talk page comes down to the observation that the sources do not mention the March Against Monsanto by name. However, look at the sentence that we are talking about here. It's one specific sentence. I offered my interpretation of the applicability of the sourcing on the article talk page way back on July 20: . I said: "If the argument is that they are about GMOs but not about the March, then I think that's a false argument. The sentence that they support is about the safety or non-safety of GMOs, and they are directed at that. It's appropriate for this page to devote a few sentences to that, because the claims against GMOs are central to the reasons for the March. We should present what Canal et al. believe, but we must keep our presentation of their views in compliance with WP:FRINGE with respect to the science, as mainstream as they may be in politics and culture." I think that's reasonable. Agree with me or disagree with me, but don't deny that I said it. But Viriditas claimed that I never explained myself, so I repeated the explanation: . And again: . And again: ! In the real world, this isn't about editors repeatedly reinstating original research. It's about a few other editors doing WP:IDHT when they WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and coming here to ANI to make false accusations. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment: The named editors in the opening statement have legitimate concerns with stopping this article developing into a WP:FORK. The original stub definitely was, and this dispute should be seen in that light. From my perspective, both "sides" have been adding OR to this article - and as petrachan has noted somewhere above, this article should be about just the march, and just verifiable positions which can be directly linked to the march. Many of the diffs cited above are introducing OR to combat OR (e.g., statement of no harm from GM needed to balance claim that "advocates" want GMO labelling. This should be about the marchers, not what these advocates want.) From my perspective, the article as it is is pretty well balanced, and slowly improving. There are a number of conduct issues here, but that doesn't seem to be the point of complaint - and even if it was, IMO the blame falls more on Veriditas and some of the other more characteristic "anti GM" voices than (most of) the named group above. As a content dispute, I don't see what action could helpfully be taken by admin. This is just yet another forum for this ongoing bad faith argument to spill into. DanHobley (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Dan, you've been a very level-headed help at the page since you started helping there, and I realize that I shouldn't go too deep into content discussions here, but since your indent indicates in part a reply to me, I feel that I need to point something out. The protesters who are the subject of the page say that GMO foods are unsafe. The fact that they say it isn't OR; it's verifiably what they say, as shown in reliable sources. We certainly should report that. But (even setting aside the much-flogged references to WP:FRINGE) we need to apply WP:BALANCE to that. Thus this one sentence. A single sentence! It would be WP:OR if, hypothetically, the page said that the protesters are wrong because of those science sources. But there is ZERO OR in the sentence that I have quoted; that is the scientific consensus per numerous sources; the sources support the sentence that they cite, and the sentence belongs there per BALANCE. This really isn't adding OR to combat other OR. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess that's a little misphrased. I guess I mean more "These additions are no more OR than the text which surrounds them." DanHobley (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

It would seem at first glance that WP:BALANCE wouldn't apply here because the article is about the march, not GMO per se. In this context, it doesn't seem that the policy is aimed at facilitating the introduction of commentary related to the truth content of the motivations of the protesters. The protesters are not being used as a reliable source making a statement on GMO, so where is the context for introducing the scientific consensus?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The page is also about the positions expressed by the marchers. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

From the AfD I see that Viriditas has shown sources that clearly state about the scientific consensus: "Genetically modified crops are the most tested and regulated crops, and the scientific consensus about their safety is overwhelming". Thus it is not original research to include citations about the scientific consensus as secondary sources make the connection, and NPOV can be satisfied. Thus I see that my AfD was correctly closed on the basis of these sources I did not have access to. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Tryptofish's role in this article has been of an experienced respected Wikipedian who has no known POV here, who was asked to help here. And their work on the article has all been cautious middle-of-the-road moderator type work. The fact that Viriditas was even beating Tryptofish up speaks volumes. North8000 (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but a minor correction: nobody asked me to go there. I was looking at my watchlist, and I watch several of the RfC pages, when I saw that the bot had removed an expired RfC at the MAM page that I hadn't noticed while the RfC was going on, because my attention had been elsewhere. I thought that the page looked interesting, so I added MAM to my watchlist, and from that I became involved in the discussions there. It stood out to me from the start that some of the allegedly pro-Monsanto editors were sometimes kind of clueless and stubborn, but they always seemed polite, whereas some of the allegedly anti-Monsanto editors seemed to be incredibly uncivil and given to WP:RGW. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

(added later) Yes, my mistake. I meant / should have said asked/encouraged (after you were there already) to take a more active role as a "middle of the road" person. North8000 (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. In fact, I can point out that a disinterested examination of the article talk page will find numerous instances where, talking about content issues, I explicitly said that I agreed with Viriditas, not that it was ever acknowledged by him. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Problem now spreading to another page

Please see: , reverted: , where the evidence-free accusations of shill editing are continuing. Further information is at User talk:Canoe1967#COI at GM controversies. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I was pretty seriously concerned about this also. Canoe1967 doesn't appear to have adequate (==any actual...?) evidence for his claim of COI, and more troubling, pretty blunt insinuation of corporate astroturfing against Tryptofish Jytdog (edited for brainfart). I discussed this with Canoe earlier today and expressed my misgivings (along with another editor). I recommended he take it down of his own accord, but nothing happened. Conversation, and Canoe's justification is here - .. It is doubly provocative given the previous ANI on this same topic (melodramatic sigh), which resulted in this notice being posted at March against Monsanto: . I would certainly characterise this as a straight up and very disproportionate personal attack, as well as an attempt to gain leverage in content arguments. DanHobley (talk) 19:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Was there such an insinuation about me? I wasn't aware of it, or maybe you meant against Jytdog. (Although I will point out what Petrachan said about me in the last link you provided: ). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Same editor is making insinuations about people being socks: : "You seem to be rather defensive of another editor here. I could think sock or meatpuppet but without looking into it further I won't". IRWolfie- (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Both COI tags are removed now. I removed the second one myself. The way I read the policy for applying them doesn't seem to agree with a few other editors. "COI editing involves contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other..." The user's page states "I'm interested in biotechnology, intellectual property, and the public perception of both.'" (my bold) This added up to me as his POV/COI being reflected to 'the public interest' through Misplaced Pages.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Slowends

I misfiled the SPI (sorry) but JoshuSasori has again confessed to attempting to evade his block. No one else calls me "Trollvenlout". He's still monitoring my edits, so there's no need to inform him of this thread. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Repeated attempts to whitewash a convicted fraudster, and to promote his latest pyramid/Ponzi scheme.

User:Alagherii, a newly-created account, has edited only two articles: Sergei Mavrodi, a biography of a convicted Russian fraudster behind several large-scale pyramid/Ponzi schemes, and MMM-2011, which was formerly an article on one of Mavrodi's schemes, later made into a redirect to Mavrodi's biography as the result of an AfD discussion. . User:Alagherii has repeatedly attempted to turn the redirect into an article, containing the following text:

"MMM - world-wide financial and socio-political movement, numbering tens of millions of members all other the world and proclaiming its ultimate goal of financial freedom and the complete destruction of the modern global financial system, the Financial Apocalypse. As leader of the movement of Sergei Mavrodi, dollar is Dragon and to deal with it, he created another Dragon - antisystems, MMM. The dollar is a pyramid, and MMM, respectively, is also a pyramid. Because, according to Sergei Mavrodi again, the pyramid can only be fought with the other pyramids, exactly the same. For more on the ideology of the MMM can be read here ".

Likewise, Alagherii has repeatedly edited the Mavrodi biography, amending it to represent Mavrodi as a "a financial genius and revolutionary" rather than the convicted fraudster he clearly is, removing references, and generally attempting to whitewash the article. . Given that User:Alagherii is clearly a single-purpose account, who's sole edits (contribution history: ) have been made with the intent to deceive Misplaced Pages readers concerning Mavrodi, I ask that Alagherii be blocked indefinitely. I would also suggest that the MMM-2011 redirect be permanently fully protected, and that the Mavrodi biography be protected by 'pending changes' to at least discourage casual whitewashing attempts. Further eyes on the biography would of course also be appreciated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked for 48 hours for 3RR. If they come back and do the same again I'll increase to indef. GiantSnowman 15:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Protected redirect. I'm not sure that pending changes is right here, since there's only been this one new user causing problems in the past few months. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Possible legal threat on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Opera

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Opera, Smerus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has accused another editor of libel. Despite a warning of a breach of WP:NLT, the accusation remains over four hours later. As the chilling effect of such accusations on other editors is widely acknowledged, can someone take appropriate action to ensure that Smerus retracts that immediately. --RexxS (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I think they are using the term colloquially, and its not reasonable to read it as a legal threat. Their response to the warning template also suggests they didn't expect the comment to be interpreted as a legal threat. That said, could be argued to be a WP:NPA issue. Monty₈₄₅ 15:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. People need to finally get off this idiotic meme that each and every mention of a word that could theoretically have some legal import ipso facto constitutes a legal threat. Saying "you did something bad to me" is not the same thing as "I'm going to sue you for doing this to me". Saying "you violated my copyright by uploading this image" doesn't mean "I'm going to sue you for damages". Saying "you damaged my article" doesn't mean "I'm going to sue you". Saying "you made personal attacks and insulted me" doesn't mean "I'm going to sue you". Saying "you libelled me" doesn't mean "I'm going to sue you" either. RexxS, you ought to know better than to try and use this silly non-incident for sanction-shopping against your opponent in those miserable old infobox wars. For shame. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree. I note that Smerus has not actually even identifed who may have, theoretically, been "libelled". He just said "other editors". Can cases of libel be brought by third parties? Even if they could, I don't think Smerus is actually suggesting that this is what he would wish to happen. His question, even if a little pointed, seems to be largely rhetorical. This seems to be wholly unnecessary escalation. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

This is indeed nonsense. The editor Smerus was reacting to had called him "a nasty S.O.B." a month ago and has since had the nerve to go around accusing him of "bullying and intimidation" on the basis of very little evidence at all. I think Smerus was getting a little sick of this, hence his comment "your pestering of me across different pages is getting ever so slightly wearisome". --Folantin (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Characterising Montanabw as "going around libelling other editors" is so far beyond the usual rough-and-tumble of discourse that I find it unacceptable on Misplaced Pages and I'm surprised that you feel it is. Please remember that the thrust of WP:NLT is to consider the effect on the recipient, not to play at lawyer by second-guessing what the originator may or may not have meant. --RexxS (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And I still don't think a reasonable editor could interpret that comment to be a threat of legal action, and it certainly does not appear Smerus intended to create such a perception. There may be more meat on the civility question, but I don't think your gonna get a block on NLT. Monty₈₄₅ 18:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Not unless every editor who leaves Template:Uw-defamatory1 on another editor's page is up for a block as well. This is absurd. Voceditenore (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I want to believe Smerus' remarks were just hyperbole and heated rhetoric and I'm willing to let the matter drop if he's not pushing it any further, either. But if not, truth is always a defense to any such charges, but further, expression of a sincere belief or opinion is still protected free speech in America, last I checked. My concern is that yes, Smerus is bullying User:Gerda Arendt and also some of the other editors like Andy who are designing and promoting infoboxes. I responded directly to his remarks at WP:Opera and Rigoletto talk. Folks can evaluate our dialogue there for themselves. My concern is that he can dish it out but can't take it. He and his allies have been extremely unkind to Gerda in particular across multiple talk pages related to the ongoing infobox drama at WikiProject Opera. I've been appalled at their bullying and what sounds to me like intimidation of Gerda, who is the creator of the "Precious" award that she gives out on almost a daily basis and one of the nicest and most good faith editors I know on wikipedia. I hold a view, backed by evidence that I find convincing, that Smerus responds to anyone who disagrees with his views on infoboxes in this manner (and his friend Folantin above is clearly a part of the same Greek chorus with tone and content). Now, should he be less rabidly anti-infobox than I think, I'd be glad to alter my own views on the matter. And if he apologizes for being so mean to Gerda, I will also accept that as a good faith attempt to mend fences. If Gerda feels he is now working with her in good faith, I too would be willing to back down. But this was not a fight I started. Montanabw 18:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Preempting discussion of Jesus

Futuretrillionaire keeps trying to archive an ongoing discussion on the Talk page of Jesus that has barely even begun. He's doing this without any communication, so I'm not sure what to say to him or how to respond. It seems extremely antagonistic. Strangesad (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

He's now done this three times, which seems like edit-warring. Strangesad (talk) 17:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Archiving the thread and referring you to the FAQ was an appropriate response to the revival of a dead-horse discussion. Perhaps you should try taking this up at Futuretrillionaire's talk page before asking for admin intervention? - Cal Engime (talk) 18:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I left a message at his Talk page. Interesting you don't think he should be leaving messages at my Talk page. He is the one undoing other editors' efforts. I was not the only one commenting in the thread before the conversation was stomped. Regardless of all that, even if the content of the article is a matter of consensus, no rule justifies blocking discussion of the consensus. Strangesad (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that. Also, removing a large slice of cited content (at 16:57) before starting the discussion (at 17:00) was somewhat provocative. Let's keep calm and discuss the issue on the talk page. --Stfg (talk) 18:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussing the issue on the Talk page is what I was trying to do. Strangesad (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And then there was this. --Stfg (talk) 19:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

@Stfg: What did it say? I'm just curious. That edit has now been deleted.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing to see there. Strangesad was making the "Actually, I think Dawkins has said Jesus existed..." edit that's now at the end of the collapsed section, but while making that edit, he inadvertently reinserted some disruptive text that had previously been posted by an unrelated vandal (the IPs in the edit history), so his edit had to be technically hidden together with those of the vandal. The legitimate part of his edit was later restored. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

@FutureTrillionaire: Like Fut.Perf. said. I'll just add that it wasn't directed at you (or any editor) personally. --Stfg (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

possible malfunction of MadmanBot

I newly created Cyclopygidae just now. User:MadmanBot now placed a tag on this page that its content is very much like cyclopygidae, a page that does not seem to exist. Someone please help! Thanks in advance, Dwergenpaartje (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I have removed that tag from the page. I hope Madman can shed some light on this, but it seems that it was a unique event. All other recent edits by MadmanBot seem to be correct so there's no need to push the shutoff button. De728631 (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict):That was really wierd... when I clicked the first link, I got the article without the image, then when I clicked the second link, (literally a second later) I Got it with pictures... different versions of the lead too. I then purged the cache, and they became identical... very odd... Maybe some bizarre caching problem that cause the bot to misbehave? Monty₈₄₅ 20:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate page moves by User:Captain Assassin!

Captain Assassin! (talk · contribs · logs) has been performing a number of page moved that I consider to be inappropriate. The latest is described here. On July 20, 2013, Tneedham1 (talk · contribs) created the article Outlander (TV series). On August 4, Captain Assassin! moved this page to Outlander (2014 TV series), then created a redirect out of it, which he pointed toward his own newly created article at the former location Outlander (TV series). The funniest part is that comparing the diffs of the 2 articles, and , you will see that the articles are exactly the same. Captain Assassin! has just copied the work of Tneedham1 onto his newly created page. IMO, this is completely inappropriate and unfair to the other editor.

This is not the first time Captain Assassin! has moved articles so that he can create his own and get "credit" for it (and he does use the word "credit" often). Just over a week ago, he moved Hercules 3D, created by User:Mythoingramus, to Hercules 3D (film) and created a redirect so that it would point to his newly created version of Hercules 3D. There is no reason why Captain Assassin! could not add to/improve the original page.

Other recent examples:

• The Normal Heart (film) was moved to The Normal Heart (play) (then redirected to The Normal Heart} so he could recreate The Normal Heart (film)
• The Flash (film) was moved to The Flash (disambiguation) (then redirected to Flash) so he could recreate The Flash (film)
• Dead Island (film) was moved to Dead Island (video game) (then redirected to Dead Island) so he could recreate Dead Island (film)
• I could go on and on…

Looking at his talk page, there have been discussions regarding page moves like this with other editors, including a "feud" with Rusted AutoParts (talk · contribs), which includes earlier discussions here and here. See also the history of deletions (8 within 2.5 months!) on this page: Into the Woods (film)

(On a separate but related note, Captain Assassin! has been under considerable scrutiny for creating inappropriate redirects. That discussion is for another day because I don't have the time to document that here right now. I will mention that at least 7 editors have pointed out problems with this behavior to him in the last 3 months: , , , , , , , .)

Is it possible to block an editor from being able to move pages? I feel Captain Assassin!'s page moves are inappropriate and unfair to other editors. It definitely undermines the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. I do not think that he deserves this privilege. Thanks. --Logical Fuzz (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• NOTE: I am currently fixing the editor's copy-paste creations, so some of the links above may appear red. I will look at warning/sanctioning after that. Black Kite (talk) 21:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• I have fixed the Outlander issue by deleting the copy-paste and moving the original version back. I have history-merged the two versions of Hercules 3D together so that the original creating editor's edits are in the history. The others are not so straightforward, as the articles are either about different things or actually contain the user's own content. I'll continue to look at it. Black Kite (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

My analysis, seeing as I've been viewing his conduct since May when he swiped A Million Ways to Die in the West because he had the content, is that he wants the credit. He seemingly has no other motivation, everything is a personal attack to him.

There is no way to prevent an editor from moving pages without blocking the editor entirely; all registered users are able to move pages once they hit the autoconfirmed threshhold. However, we could implement a pagemove ban on him; this would be something saying "You're not allowed to move pages anymore, and you'll be blocked if you do it". Nyttend (talk) 22:55, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest that probably needs to extend to creating redirects as well. Simply a glance at the user's talkpage strongly indicates someone who doesn't actually seem to grasp simple concepts, and then proceeds to completely ignore them once they've been explained to them. Black Kite (talk) 23:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)